Update the "Fight for ETH" slogan

[analog compass]

We talk about abstracting the blockchain elements though the slogan screams crypto. Majority gamers are concerned abut blockchain based games and here we are on the first line shouting that the game is about fighting for ETH.

At this stage we are not adding the ability to wager for ETH and if we are should it be the slogan of the game? Maybe there is a mineral in the game also called ETH though people would assume ETH is referring to the token.

We receive very little benefit for all the negative connotations it implies.

[magic lagoon]

I agree. I think the core ideas "Collect, Battle, Trade" or something similar (maybe something more catchy)--would resonate so much better with the web2 audience (web3 audience would like it too, imo).

[analog compass]

Hey I like that.

[zenith agate]

good point. there is a real risk of turning people away because we are a crypto game.

i personally like ILV to embrace crypto. we saw what happened to mr beast's creator's pass as they tried to hide it.
ILV is built on blockchain, the assets are NFTs and we use ERC-20 as governance and for transactions. I dont see a way to hide crypto from ILV.
imo the best way is to be ahead of the issue.

prove them that we are the good guys

[analog compass]

They need to give us a chance first and the opener is shooting ourself in the foot. It's like we consider fighting for ETH the foundation of the game.

We clearly have NFTs and have embraced crypto more than most crypto games. Choosing not to add "fight for crypto" in the slogan would be wise in my opinion.

Doesnt do the Illuvium world justice at all.

[zenith agate]

i agree. i have been reading the web2 comments on TL's tweet.
"Fight for ETH" has been used on multiple media. i believe trying to hide it will give us a bigger backlash, because when we get bigger people will dig our past.
i would recommend hiring a web2 PR team tho

[analog compass]

You're more afraid of backlash for updating the slogan than having fight for ETH as the slogan?

Fighting for ETH is not confirmed at this stage. Might never be added. Also it's just a bad slogan based on gamers sentiment towards blockchain games.

Won't go back and forth with you on this. Just suprised at your logic.

[zenith agate]

TL is already getting neg comments on how they dont spesifically disclosed that ILV is a crypto game, altho they have mentioned digital collectible in the video

i personally would not like to be blind sided

we can see how the influencer pulled back from mr beast's project, and what he said about it. he mentioned he wasnt aware that nft was involved

[analog compass]

You do know he asked if the project has anything to do with NFTs and they said no.

I'm talking about updating our slogan. I can't see anyone feeling blind sighted for changing "Fight for ETH" to "Collect, Battle, Trade" like suggested above.

[true whale]

Gonna tag @ionic saffron who handles marketing here and @midnight cliff who handles the Lore which ETH is a part of it.

Arguments have merit and for context, it has been discussed before and Aaron has said that ETH is part of the lore. All the fuels such as crypton are derivatives of ETH in Lore.

That being said, I can see why there may be pushback from the web 2 audience. So we just need to get confirmation from the admin team if we are gonna stick with our position or there is a need to deviate from the messaging to accommodate mass adoption.

But if you ask me, changing fight for ETH wont do much in changing people minds. We are a NFT game and people will keep seeing us that until people realize its just a technology thats part of a great game.

[analog compass]

Thanks. Yes I agree, removing it won’t do anything to help change people’s minds. Though I believe removing it will give people a better first impression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkR_zgLu5Bc&t=100s

[zenith agate]

We are using NFT as our profile picture

[midnight cliff]

Would prefer not to remove deeply embedded lore just because someone can farm easy views by hating on crypto.

We are a crypto game. We don’t shy away from that. The point of Illuvium is to make the most of the tech through the good aspects of crypto while getting rid of as much of the bad as possible.

As for the lore, there is more to it than even just that ETH is the power source of the Illuvium universe.

Look at the bad parts of crypto: Scams, slow, bad for the environment, expensive, no interoperability.

We are none of that. We have specifically set ourselves apart by eliminating this stuff.

Now, does this mean that the average gamer (or influencer) isn’t going to dismiss us automatically? Of course not. And they have every right to. When 100% of the games you see suck, it’s fair to dismiss out of hand until you see evidence.

And that’s where our challenge lies. We need to make fun games that players want to play even before they pay for something. We have so much more to add.

By the time the mainstream start to pay attention we will have built something really cool and the slogan’s true meaning will be revealed.

[true whale]

As for the lore, there is more to it than even just that ETH is the power source of the Illuvium universe.

Dammit was hoping for more lore leaks after this statement.

By the time the mainstream start to pay attention we will have built something really cool and the slogan’s true meaning will be revealed.

Another lore teaser!

Thanks, Aaron. Appreciate you chiming in. This topic comes up every quarter or so. Will just refer them to your responses.

[analog compass]

I made no mention of removing lore. Though I did say if our slogan contains ETH, consumers will just assume it’s referring to the Ethereum token.

So “Fight for ETH” sounds like just a sell for a “play to earn” game which are games that try incentivise players to play for the potential to earn because the game is rubbish without it. In fact if I wanted gamers to think our game fits that description I’d choose a slogan like this.

Yes we have to get mainstream gamers past the fact that not all crypto games are bad. Though I think we are shooting ourself in the foot with the “play our game you can earn ETH” slogan.

It’s good for attracting those hoping to earn from playing not so good for the much larger mainstream audience.

[stark river]

yep, many people run away from crypto, the dind't even want to hear, it would be good if it would center the attention to the game and the trades.

[opaque swallow]

I agree that in its current form - and without knowing anything about the lore - the slogan is misleading. I thought it originated from the older plan of being able to wager ETH in the Leviathan arena, and since that option was scrapped, the slogan seems outdated.

I would not want to hide us being a crypto game, but perhaps make it less prominent until we know the lore could be beneficial.

The fact that it is the first thing in your face can easily give the impression that the main goal of the game is to earn crypto, instead of collecting an awesome set of creatures.

[analog compass]

<@&1107754344499122206> Would you be interested in setting up and Split test with current slogan vs a few other options and see what converts more?

[weak magnet]

A split test where? Illuvium hasnt been interested in doing pay per view ads in a long time

[midnight cliff]

Removing it IS removing some of the lore.

[red sorrel]

^^

[analog compass]

Surly the lore doesn’t fall apart if the slogan is different 🙃

[analog compass]

Not ads, just make the slogan dynamic so 50% of users see an alternative and compare click through rates.

[midnight cliff]

I’ve explained my thoughts on this one. I’d rather not go in circles.

[zenith agate]

thank you aaron

[analog compass]

You didn’t explain how changing.

Illuvium - Join the fight for ETH

To Illuvium - Join the fight

Has any impact on your Lore.

Will the lore not make sense if the website doesn’t mention fighting for ETH?

Chat GPT sums up the matter like this and your slogan confirms we are apart of this narrative. If that’s your goal then objective achieved.

[weak magnet]

I dont think its just a slogan

[analog compass]

I get Aaron probably has some crazy idea for it. To everyone else it’s a slogan.

I’ll finish here.

[lost oyster]

Given that it’s embedded into the lore, i would say it’s not a bad idea to revisit it after open beta when we start to learn the lore and can weigh the pros and cons with a more complete picture

[opaque swallow]

But this is precisely the issue. Open beta is still 4+ months away but we are getting exposed to millions of potential players now. They are getting it in their face now, without knowing anything about the lore, or even knowing that ETH is part of the lore. And some (perhaps many) may get the wrong idea about the focus of the game, dismissing it as a play-to-earn focus right away, given the current sentiment.

I totally trust Aaron that it will be an awesome part of the lore but no one else knows this, apart from the core team. So why keep the slogan in the most prominent position possible, until this knowledge becomes available to everyone?

It could be brought back to center position at open beta, when it will make sense to everyone, and in the mean time, we could be highlighting different features of the game, such as the collection aspect or the pvp leaderboard, that don't have negative connotations to it.

[true whale]

Would they even know what eth is? I mean the crypto coin most people know is bitcoin. Most wouldn't know that eth is connected to crypto currency of ethereum

[royal beacon]

First, it's part of lore.
Second, it wouldn't work to hide it. The reason why they hate Web3 is they are scared of being scammed so the worst thing we can do is to give any appearance (no matter how remote) of hiding it. Fight For ETH is out there already.

A good example: Buckley's cough syrup: "It tastes awful and it works." They didn't hide what they knew the customer would find off-putting and so they built a level of trust.

I lived through board game players not wanting computer games. Computer gamers not wanting internet games, internet gamers not wanting mobile. Tide will turn on this too.

[thick siren]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

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Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[magic lagoon]

I think it's a GREAT slogan for crypto fans, but it is also a slogan that would make most of my friends who aren't into crypto click away to something else before giving Illuvium even two more seconds of thought beause of the hit job main stream media has done to crypto/nfts. They just immediately think ponzi/scam. They won't stick around for any arguments about how we are the good side of crypto if we don't show that good side first to tempt them into wanting to learn why we aren't the bad guys.

It's not that we are hiding that we are crypto game. I personally think that the focus of the very first marketing should be centered around the most fun aspects of the gameplay paired with how we empower gamers to own their own assets and govern their own game.

I get that it is related to lore, which is great. We don't need to get rid of it. We just make it the 3rd or 4th thing people see instead of the very first thing people see. If we keep it as the front and center of marketing, I 100% think the project will still succeed, but it will be a harder road than it necessarily has to be. Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

Really appreciate everyone's opinions on this.

[lost oyster]

Maybe I’ve just drank the koolaid so to speak, but I personally don’t think we benefit from trying to hide that we’re a web3 game. We don’t have to make it everything we are, but it is a big part of who we are. If people want to fade a genuinely amazing gaming experience because they are scared of some blockchain technology then idk, their loss, but I think the majority will just want to play a fun game.

[molten lintel]

Completely agree here. We don’t need to shove the crypto aspect in everyone face, but we also don’t need to hide a core element of Illuvium ecosystem.

[lost oyster]

My biggest “issue” with the slogan has just been its accuracy. I don’t see where anyone is fighting for ETH at the moment. If the lore changes that then I’m cool with it.

[zenith agate]

My first impression from the trailer. Fight for ETH was the wager

[magic lagoon]

Mine as well. Wagers for pvp battles.

[magic lagoon]

Seems like very mixed responses. Definitely shouldn't make any changes for now.

[warped root]

The slogan should be an implicit promise for the end goal/thing to aim for in playing

In the same way “gotta catch ‘em all” was this for Pokémon

[analog compass]

Watch the Twitch streams of Arena. 80% of the comments are ripping on people streaming an NFT game.

The stigma is real.

Come to our website and we pretty much say.

“Play for ETH”

Come on.

[chilly silo]

This is a fucking great proposal.

I have never liked the "Fight for ETH" shit. It is 0 marketing inteligent if we want to conquer web2. I am sure the team is aware of this.

I hope they change the slogan fast.

[chilly silo]

But how are we gonna have a catchy slogan for web2 gamers when most wont know what ETH is?

We can demonstrate we are a web3 game through many other methods...

[analog compass]

There are multiple mentions of blockchain on the site. We even have our own marketplace. Fuel is purchased with an order book type system. It’s undoubtedly a web3 game. I just think the main headline is not doing us any good.

[chilly silo]

100% it makes no sense to me lol

Shitty slogan, its probably the only bad thing the DAO has right now

[warped root]

Considering the largest criticism of this type of project by the mass market is that they’re “overly financialized”, not sure it makes a whole lot of sense to put a literal financial asset in the slogan

[cedar pivot]

It’s a game, first it’s a game, you must play and see if you like it, they will play for free, with no money, if in this condition they don’t want to give a change, doesn’t mater what is written…let’s the people to know that we are a crypto game, what do you are afraid? In the end they will find out that illuvium is a crypto game. We have a great game, why must we to hide? Some of people are anti-crypto…if you ask me 4 years ago, also myself was anti-crypto…people are changing…

[feral saddle]

Web 2 gamers aren’t inherently unintelligent. Not too long ago that was us.

But if people really are against anything remotely crypto/web 3 related, they won’t be bothered by a slogan. In that case, the slogan would merely serve as another variable in an inconsistent hate monologue on FTX and Bitconnect. Or putt differently, don’t think there are many ‘woke’ web 2 gamers thinking about giving arena a shot, only to see the slogan and throw their laptop at their roommate in frustration?

If that’s not the case, why change the slogan? To accommodate an outdated way of criticising crypto and increase the taboo around silly stigma’s, that aren’t even relevant anymore since Ethereum became pos? Why not stand up for crypto, prove them wrong and fight for Eth, and its potential, instead?

If, in this case, ‘ETH’ is also a brilliant piece of lore, or even just a nerdy play on words in the Illuvium universe…even better. I for one, am very glad that the masterminds at Heineken failed in their propaganda war on Corona, during some epidemic a few years back…

[weak magnet]

There is no guarantee in any way that the Leviathan will not have eth wagering. Even if it does what do we do if eth wagering is added later? We can't revert the slogan twice

[obsidian coyote]

We shouldn’t hide our true objective or our true self out of fear of what others think

Web3 is the way forward, we will go in heads held high back straight, not slouched over hiding our tails and running away from every link to web3 like we are scared

Fight for ETH originality is fine

[analog compass]

That’s the thing though the core element is ETH the exact same name as ETH.

It’s about the misconception that people are fighting for the ETH token.

This must be another play to earn ponzi.

I’m not even sure why you would name it ETH.

Imagine watching an Illuvium series and they’re like “We need more ETH”. Tell me you won’t think of Ethereum.

[zenith agate]

i invested in ILV because i want to Fight for ETH

the OP concerns are valid.
i think kieran made a speech about getting rid of all crypto reference from marketing tools.
i cannot reasonably see that the "ETH" on the slogan is not ethereum. we will use ETH for illuvidex.

i dont believe we need to change it, but if this gets supported an IIP can be proposed to settle this matter once and for all

[celest surge]

According to the AI overlord, ChatGPT : 6 participants are supportive of keeping the slogan, 10 are against it, and 1 has a neutral or undecided stance.

Personally, Ive been attracted by the slogan as an Ethereum person, however also confused what it actually means since it is not materialized in any aspect of the game and there have been concerns if people can battle for ETH for legal reasons.

Given the current context, Im against keeping the slogan. That is in favor of removing for now and potentially re-adding later. Especially as it raises eyebrows among web2 gamers. It seems that the cons (confusion right now) overweight the pros (upcoming lore ?).
I dont think there is a need for a slogan / subtitle such as Fight-for-ETH (or whatever). Just call it Illuvium (for now), its cleaner.

[analog compass]

Well it’s not the ETH you were thinking of 😂

I’d say do a split test and let the market decide.

[analog compass]

This’s actually highlights my concerns.

There are obvious cons to having a slogan like this. If you’re not aware, you need to find the sentiment from the general gaming audience.
This title does us no favours.

The “play to earn gamers” are going to find out about Illuvium and give it a go with or without the title.

For those gamers on this fence, the title is a clear red flag.

Why have such a controversial title on the landing page. So what if ETH is in the lore as someone else, no one is going to join the dots.

[royal beacon]

The last time this was brought up decision pretty much was to wait and trust that it would be explained when lore was released. We went with the fact we trusted Aaron and discussion got put on the back bench.

I hope the community doesn't try to change something that is on all of our marketing, including the neckline of the hoodie I am washing, without even having the full picture. Let's at least wait for the story to be told.

[analog compass]

Will people who visit the main landing page also know of this lore?

[analog compass]

This puts me in a collectors mindset. The current one puts me in a play in attempt to profit mindset.

[royal beacon]

I think that because Illuvium is a good game and thanks to the marketing efforts being done, as well as the ease of getting gameplay visible to the masses due to social media, it won't matter that the slogan mentions ETH.

It's a Web3 game. That's not a bad thing. We shouldn't try to cover it up or act embarrassed by it.

[opaque swallow]

To everyone that says "we should not hide that we are a crypto game", nobody is suggesting this. We are all here because we love crypto, it would be stupid to try to hide it.

But currently, we have a confusing slogan front and center on the website, popping in the face of every visitor right away. A slogan, that we all misunderstand. Because apparently, this ETH is not the ETH we are all thinking of.

What is it then? No one will know for several more months. Yet, it is popping in everyone's face, so everyone will make some assumptions about it. Most likely, wrong assumptions. It's a riddle that everyone gets wrong.

Some will think it's ETH, the crypto token and they love it.

Some will think its ETH, the crypto token they are not keen on, but still stay because they are curious/love the art etc.

And some will assume that if the first sentence mentions ETH then this must be another one of those play to earn ponzis their mom has warned them about, and will click off the website without even getting to the trailer (which, by the way, could have made them realize the quality of the game and made them investigate more, but they never get to see it).

It is this last group we will lose for no good reason. This is why we are suggesting not featuring this confusing slogan in the prime real estate of the website, UNTIL the true meaning of it becomes public knowledge. We are not asking to remove it from the project, the lore will for sure be awesome! But in the mean time, highlighting another aspect of the game at the top of the page, something that does not confuse and potentially scare people away, could be beneficial.

[analog compass]

Yeah wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for your input.

[bold agate]

Guys I'm not going anywhere, you can't destroy me ,🤣

[analog compass]

The top section of a website is called the “above the fold section” it’s debatable that it’s the most important part of a website as somewhere between 20-50% never scroll past this section.

I’ve spent several years working as a marketing manager and know how things like this impact results.

Any others with marketing experience are welcome to speak up.

[opaque swallow]

Working in online marketing too, so know exactly what you are talking about

[analog compass]

I’ll finish with this output from ChatGPT.

List the pros and cons for a web3 game to have a slogan “Join the fight for ETH”

I don’t think any slogan is worth those cons.

Pros:

1. Clarity of Purpose:
   The slogan clearly communicates a specific goal, joining the fight for Ethereum.

2. Community Engagement:
   Appeals to individuals already interested in or invested in Ethereum, fostering a sense of community.

3. Cryptocurrency Alignment:
   Aligns with the broader cryptocurrency community, tapping into the growing interest in blockchain and Ethereum.

Cons:

1. Exclusivity:
   May alienate players not interested in or familiar with Ethereum or the cryptocurrency space.

2. Limited Appeal:
   Targets a specific audience, potentially limiting the game’s reach beyond those already involved in Ethereum.

3. Market Dependency:
   Success could be tied to the volatility and popularity of Ethereum, introducing an element of financial risk for both players and the game itself.

Your argument that it’s not ETH is not valid because of the clear assumption that it’s ETH the token.

[zenith agate]

[bold agate]

https://tenor.com/view/amen-anchorman-will-ferrell-gif-10865461

[clever dagger]

First tell it that ETH is the quintessential form of three different types of fuels that are collected in the game and that these fuels are then used as the three in-game currencies. So then it does not automatically associate everything with Ethereum.

[zenith agate]

basically ethereum

[bold agate]

Ethereum is the best form of money to ever exist, I wanna Fight 4 It

[clever dagger]

🦇🔊

[analog compass]

Like I said before how would anyone other than people who have played the game know this?

My concern is for new arrivals on the homepage. Have you not read up?

I’ve already made a point that ~47% of people think the slogan is no good.

Great slogan Illuvium 👍

[clever dagger]

Not being able to use a word because of its other connotations is a thing I guess.

[analog compass]

How many people would of been upset if this was the original?

[analog compass]

It’s too close to home. I’m sure there is reasons for it in the lore but if anyone knows the lore than we have onboarded them successfully.

[magic lagoon]

I’d say it looks great and more quickly grabs a potential players attention to rope them in, but that’s just me. Is the phrase trademarked or anything? Not sure how much we need to worry about that

[celest surge]

this looks great imo

[clever dagger]

Commas are weaker than periods. I’d think a period after each of the three words would be better.

[zenith agate]

ok i see your point

[analog compass]

Startups need to fight for every extra user they onboard. This game studio endeavour we have is not going to be easy. If we can make an improvement here and turn the dial by 1% it’s a huge win for us.

We need a few extra votes for this to go to council for more consideration.

I believe running a split test of headline variants would be very beneficial. This is a common practice, look up “headline testing”.

With respect for Aaron I don’t care if the lore contains ETH. To all outsiders it reads “Join the fight for cryoto”.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/play-to-earn-why-gamers-hate-crypto-atari-founder

[zenith agate]

i like the idea.
i removed my thumb, i shouldnt be voting on ideas. i have my personal opinion. but my role is to gather community sentiment

[analog compass]

Hey if I only had a few upvotes I would have left the conversation.

We shouldn’t be so divided over our title.

[zenith agate]

this is such a huge change, so i reckon we need extensive market research on this. weighing the pro/cons

if the research shows that the idea will pump our bags, i will vote for it

[sour shale]

This is known now for so many years. We had that conversation a few times now. With only a few months left for the public beta you want to change that now? I can see that with a big delay again. Because of this in our core lore, I guess a lot of work needs to be redone. And I am against it. When people see that we are a good game and it's fun to play, they don't care about the crypto side. It was the way that we went from the beginning.

[celest surge]

exemplary 🤝

[polar garden]

Might be just me..? But when I see her in that clip - I feel like she’s riding a motorcycle ? With the Helmet and all…? 😂👀🤭🏍

[feral saddle]

“And some will assume that if the first sentence mentions ETH then this must be another one of those play to earn ponzis their mom has warned them about”

I still think most people here overestimate the size of this group of people. Just because they are the most vocal keyboard warriors (that’s just the thing with ‘extremists’) does not necessarily mean they are numerous in size, or that much of a threat. Accommodating to them in any way, to me, is a sign of insecurity and doubt in our own path/project.

I also wouldn’t underestimate the current slogan’s ability to interest web 3/crypto people who are not yet part of the Illuvium ecosystem. I would argue those people are a much more grateful target audience. And that target audience should see plenty of exponential, yet organic, growth in the coming months and years (even without active input off Illuvium marketing). As should be the case for a more objective (and therefore positive) perception of crypto.

If that’s not enough to change the mind of a small group of skirmishing trolls, changing a slogan after all these years definitely won’t be enough either.

[cedar pivot]

But this is a game pay to win…why do you what to lie?

[zenith nebula]

When the game first came out, you were meant to be able to wager ETH on battles, and this must be where the slogan came from. The slogan was either tied into the lore then or at a later date when they realised gambling could have legal implications (a real shame as fighting for ETH would have been so cool). Either way, if you can't wager, it's a weird slogan. Even if it's in the lore, why would you call it ETH? And in caps like the Ethereum ticker? It's confusing for me and must be for potential new players.

[feral saddle]

On the BITB site (Ethlizards) it says 'Entry Stake (ETH) coming soon'. BITB is a relatively new product, so I doubt they would put it up there if adding wagers is an impossible feat for a DAO. So why would you be convinced ILV can't do it?

[zenith nebula]

https://youtu.be/Urx0JPMKSYY?si=gzt7UyOUzsVd2yBn&t=2410

[feral saddle]

That's rather old (I mean, that's like 17 delay announcements ago 😉 ). And I'm not a legal expert but don't think DAO's have found their place yet within the existing boundaries of the law. So again, don't think you should write wagering off just yet. BITB is only a few weeks old, for example.

Also, the slogan does not say "Wager for ETH". "Fight for ETH" has a much broader semantic range, I believe.

[zenith nebula]

I'm not completely writing it off, I'm just showing that ETH wagering hasn't been mentioned for years and the last thing that was mentioned was that they "may be flying too close to the sun".

Show me anything since from the team saying ETH wagering is in?

Ethlizards is a much smaller project, with more anonymity and a lot less to lose compared to ILV - they can be more flexible and take more risks. It is not a good comparison. A good example is ILV being on the EPIC game store - there are probably certain requirements regarding gambling. Ethlizards doesn't have to worry about that.

Yes it doesn't say wager for ETH, but the point is it's just a confusing statement.

For web2 players they are either "what is ETH?" or "crypto, no thanks".
For web3 players it's "sweet I can battle for ETH... oh no... wait, let me read discord.. actually ETH is about lore that's not been released yet, but has the same name as Ethereum, but there is a leviathan arena where we may be able to wager something but we don't know yet".

CONFUSING.

[feral saddle]

The slogan is what drew me to this project in the first place. I stayed for years. Not for the slogan or the prospect of degen gambling, but for the team and their concept.

Why would you think that would backfire now that more and more actual playable products are being released by that same team that convinced me to stick around with nothing but dreams and a last name?

You seem somewhat infatuated by the “wagering” part. Again (and you acknowledged this) the slogan does not use the term “wager”? So why keep circling back to that?

"Fight for ETH" should not be so confusing. If anything, you have your pick of relevant ways to interpret it. But I have a background in linguistics, so I admit I might be a niche target for that.

[sour shale]

It's a web3 game, don't hide it. It looks more like a scam if you hide it and then they find out otherwise.
It's a web3 game, if someone wants a web2 game they should probably look elsewhere.

[proud portal]

I also have a background in marketing. I think an A/B test is more then reasonable for at least seeing the bounce rate.

I don't like fight for ETH for Illuvium. Even if it is a lore link. Fighting is only one aspect of the game. Mostly connects with PVP in my opinion.

What is the purpose of a slogan, be memorable, communicate the essence of the brand, create a emotional connection.

"Fight for ETH" score IMO:
Memorable: 5/10
Essence of brand: 6/10
Emotional connection: 9/10 (but perhaps the wrong emotion)

It's not very strong except for the emotional connection, this is also not fully linked to the brand. "Fighting" is an intense, strong and passionate emotion not fully connected with the trading/collecting/casual aspects of the games.

[zenith nebula]

Huge strawman from your original question which I answered with evidence.

[zenith nebula]

Who is saying hide crypto? I'm just saying Fight for ETH is confusing if there isn't ETH wagering.

[sour shale]

It's confusing because we don't know what that means. Because we don't know the lore. I would wait until we have more information instead of change because some people don't like it. I don't want a delay and a change would be that.

[zenith nebula]

I 100% agree it's confusing, regardless of the reason why.

To the average new player they will assume it means Ethereum because it's the capitalised ticker.

[sour shale]

Then I would wait for an answer or something that we know what Fight for Eth really means.

[opaque swallow]

Rofl, have you read the thread ser/lady? The very point of us trying to temporarily update the confusing slogan is that it is confusing. It will be confusing until we have the info, and we have the info at open beta - since its part of the much guarded lore. Therefore, waiting is the opposite of a solution for the confusing situation, because waiting means everyone keeps getting confused until open beta??

[zenith nebula]

I can see how they can change it into something lore related, like a new location and change it to "Fight for Ethernia" or something, but right now it's confusing to potential prospect players that's all.

I also have a friend that still thinks you can wager ETH, and I'm not surprised considering the slogan, which kind of proves the point.

Team should do one of the following IMO.

1. Say what ETH stands and/or modify the slogan (e.g Fight for Ethernia if it stands for a location in lore).
2. Confirm if ETH wagering is gonna happen. So the slogan is truthful.

[sour shale]

Ya good luck. This has been on the website since the beginning. And now you talk about that with only a few months till open beta. Great timing. I know we had that conversation a few times before.

[zenith nebula]

I think it's something that always confused a lot of people, and now someone has actually brought it up properly, people are saying how they feel. Nothing wrong with that, that's what the DAO is for.

[sour shale]

It came up before a few times. And it's still Fight for ETH

[zenith nebula]

No, it's fight for ETH

[zenith agate]

this discussion is more relevant now that we have esport partnership

TL is going to stream ILV, we should be able to see their fan base reaction

[zenith nebula]

Agreed, but surely they will assume they will be able to fight for ETH? 😂

[opaque swallow]

The reason we are pushing this now is because up until now it was mostly crypto native people knowing about the project. No one is bothered by ETH in this group. But now we have the Epic Store launch with much fanfare (rightfully so). And most of those potential players that are getting exposed to the project right now and the following weeks are not from the crypto world. It's like we are having a major marketing breakthrough, only to confuse the new players we attract to the site.

[zenith agate]

i want to see their reaction when they see that ILV is a crypto game

[sour shale]

Guess they don't care because the game is good. And they can play without any wallet or tokens or anything like that.

[zenith agate]

it's up to them to judge

i cant force my opinion on them

[zenith nebula]

I just think we need to know what is meant by ETH. Even if Aaron said it's a place, a person, an item or whatever, gave us a single word. Then at least we can educate someone quickly if they are confused.

Or it literally is the original ETH wagering, which would be great, but that doesn't look likely.

Right now it's assumed it's wagering, and we just say to them we don't know lol.

[zenith agate]

imo it doesnt matter what we want to say, what matters is how people perceive them

a good marketing is self explanatory

if u have to spend time to explain it to people then u have lost them

[zenith nebula]

Right now 50% need it explained to them.

[zenith agate]

for me, fight for eth is pretty straightforward. we are fighting to get ethereum the token

[zenith nebula]

Which is stupid because there is no way to get Ethereum token within the ILV ecosystem.

[zenith agate]

i rarely read the lore. i skip it and just get into the fight.
but thats just me

[zenith nebula]

For me, fight for ETH was straightforward too, it was fighting someone else for their ETH, which was the original wager idea - but now gone based on evidence we have.

[feral saddle]

I'm sorry, but your whole first comment was as confusing to me as the infamous slogan is to you. My reply to it was a rhetorical question at best. But all right...going back to your initial comment.

1. Your first sentence acts like the game released at the same time as the slogan. Not saying you do, but your first sentence sure is.
2. The slogan was/is first and foremost a baiting marketing strategy, obviously...And it worked, because I'm here.
3. Your whole argument is based on the premise that if (and yes, that's still an IF) you can't wager in game, Fight for ETH is a weird slogan. Which to me is simply false because they are not the same verb, nor synonyms. And one can fight in many ways.

I can keep going. But will refrain, for now. Please don't take this too personal either.

After all, this is not an exact science. I just very much doubt that this, even with 25 upvotes, will have any chance of going further. But, by all means, prove me wrong.

[opaque swallow]

We now have an all-star marketing committee. This sounds like a good issue to present to them and get their opinion on it.

[zenith agate]

Yes Luca netz is goated

[feral saddle]

Sure, agreed. My main point before ILVBull commented, was just that I think there's still much of Web 3/ people already in crypto that need to be introduced to our eco-system. And that group will also organically (and without our help or money) grow in the months/years to come. So why change a winning strategy?

But again, did not mean to be rude. And I've been wrong about the outcome of these proposals before (talking about you, wave 2 price change...).

[cedar pivot]

what? to remove from epic store? if didn't appear on epic store it was no longer a problem?....simple remove from epic fix the "problem that you see"....o my god....only love, o hope the message is not to bully, English is not my native language

[magic lagoon]

Most won’t care if we can get them to take a close enough look and get addicted to the gameplay. But just don’t want them to turn away before giving the game a good look.

[zenith agate]

Again, they are our opinions. Traditionally, i would prefer a market research on it. The result can be revealing

[magic lagoon]

Yeah, would be interesting. The simple fact is that there are hundreds of millions of gamers out there, so even if the majority would be turned off my it being crypto game, there will still be millions that will give it a shot. The trick is to not turn them off from us until they see the game.

[zenith agate]

That seems to be the current marketing strategy. Try the game first.

[zenith agate]

@analog compass 1 more vote. need to engage the idea to get to the top

[astral dagger]

I think fight for ETH turns off the vast majority of potential players.
At the same time, even though he may have some bad ideas (D1SK name, M0z4rt name) and made some mistakes, in the end, I trust @midnight cliff.
If he says ETH can't be simply control F replaced by Essence, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Without him, Illuvium wouldn't be nearly as great as it is.

[median totem]

The vast majority don't even realize there's a fight for ETH Slogan.
Asked 4 of 5 friends who started playing Arena when released on epic Games Store, what they think about it. Nobody knew what i was talking about.

[astral dagger]

that's true, but I think that's partially because the team wants to keep the lore to their chest. When the cinematic trailer comes out and explains more of the lore, that's where the slogan will return, just like in the first cinematic trailer
https://youtu.be/mzT88eN4gts?si=Arts574JNClbCgku&t=192

[median totem]

Who knows... I heared there's barely any Lore in Trailer (what a surprise🙄... fu Aaron 😆) so maybe not.

[analog compass]

If those friends found out via word of mouth they are likely not to notice.

If you see an ad for a game, click on it and end up on the landing page with no prior knowledge of the games you are 100% likely to notice if and your judgement starts on line 1.

If I was on the fence or even against blockchain games you would have better chance onboarding me if you slowly reel me in.

Entice me about the world and what the games offer and let me discover the NFT, blockchain side.

I’m not saying hide it for those who jump to extremes.

I’m saying let’s not title the main site with, “Play for crypto” which is the interpretation.

[median totem]

Afaik there's no slogan on epic games store...

One could argue putting the slogan on the Website is a "slowly reel you in"
If the slogan is literally anywhere, whatever you Click it slapps you in the Face, i could see your point. But thats really not the case here

[analog compass]

Yeah so why is everyone up in arms about changing it if it’s just on the website?

I thought this was a small ask.

One could argue it’s false advertising

[median totem]

Why Change it if it's just in Website? 🙃

[median totem]

Probably

[analog compass]

Can you answer my question without asking a question?

How do you feel about the votes.

Looks like the community is divided on the title.

Surely we can come up with one that the majority of the community gets behind.

All I think we need to do is a split test and let the market decide.

I’m not going to go on further believe I’ve made my points.

Thanks for your input though.

[median totem]

No, i can just speak for myself not for everybody.
And i myself don't See the need for a Change since most people don't even realize what the Heck it is, especially web2 people where 50% of them doesn't even know what ETH is.
I wouldn't hide there is a blockchain Integration.
If the lore is revealed, it might actually makes sense
Additional work.
It's in the Trailer anyways, so you can't hide it everywhere.
People Start arguing in social media illuvium want to hide it as soon as it's gone.

[median totem]

I guess there are a few people agreing with you obviously. Even tho there are some Accounts i habe never Seen writing nor voting for any poll, which Looks a bit weird to me

[analog compass]

So because it’s a small change to make we shouldn’t make it at all.

You’re saying majority of people don’t know what ETH is so that makes it fine to use.

You think that changing the title would be us hiding that we are a blockchain game.

You believe once the lore is revealed that new people to the site will think ETH means something about the lore.

You think it’s a lot of work to change a title.

Because it’s in a video we now can’t change it.

Ok very logical reasoning.

[median totem]

Don't get me wrong i'm not pointing with a gun at you and say "no! we leave it as it is". I just Like to question things 🙃

[sour shale]

A new update to the website is coming for open beta. Maybe we see some changes to this too.

[median totem]

Lol seriously?
Going for the lets make the reasons Look ridiculous Route? Could do the same with your opinion

You seem to be very emotionally attached to it.
You one of the people who hoped for wagering in Arena?

[analog compass]

Thought it would be cool yeah.

Though I worked in marketing for several years, have built out many landing page campaigns and am aware that optimising headlines like this can have a big impact on results with minimal effort.

I know from reading chat threads, articles and surveys that the majority of gamers out there are against blockchain games.

They think they are all rubbish, grindy, scammy, cash grabs.

So we know we have an uphill battle on our hands. We’re going to need all the help we can get.

“Oh we just need to show them we are not like that”

Yes that’s right, but that’s after the fact they have been onboarded.

[thick siren]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[sour shale]

But we still are a Web3 Blockchain game. And it doesn't change with Update the Fight for ETH slogan. You can do what you want in the end we are a crypto game. Only the game can change it. If the game is good and fun maybe web2 player will play it. You don't change a web2 players mind with an update of some words on the website.
But I am done now debating. Makes no sense. ✌️

[analog compass]

Changing words on a website has no impact on bounce rate?

Ok 👍

[median totem]

you would have been definetly cool. (especially for revenue 🙃 )
But i guess there will be 3. party websites at least for wagering.

I see where you coming from. But it is "just" the 1 line on the website.
There is no word about it on other socials, nor the epic game store, nor have i seen a youtube vid of someone showcasing the game mentioning it.
Basically no word on any of the major onboarding tools, in my personal experience... i barely visited a website of any game i played.

As you said you wana get slowly introduced to the blockchain aspect, imo this is done with either ingame tips when you cought/crafted your first sellable asset or via website. (or both)

But we will see what council says anyways.
If i remember right, 25 upvotes are enough

[zenith agate]

you did it @analog compass

[analog compass]

Thanks for your support

[zenith agate]

thank you for providing ideas to the dao

[zenith nebula]

Seems like from the Midbeast stream the consensus was they hated that we were a "crypto" game. Supports the idea that this slogan needs to change for optimal appeal and adoption.

[celest surge]

When playing web2 games, nobody cares which programming language the game uses, on which cloud it runs (aws, google, etc), or which databases and caching system it uses.
Players only care about tech details if the game has issues, such as if it crashes or it runs too slow. Then you may see folks researching the tech details and blaming the game devs.

I think every good web3 game, like ours, should do the same. Tech details, such as wallets, bridges, crypto native coins, staking, etc. are all too much and irrelevant for most players. Our main marketing channels should not include any of that.

People should play the game, own assets, and do trading, all within the Illuvium universe and without needing to know the tech that powers it all in the background.

In addition to that we can still have websites and material for people who are interested in the crypto side, if they are crypto natives or if they decide to become. I assume that very few new players will go down that route.

[loud sinew]

This isn't some programming language though. It's a full blown political issue. People still dont seem to understand this point. People hate crypto the same way they hate other issues like death penalty, guns, abortion, etc

Just because you like Web3 and are in discords with other people in Web3 doesnt mean thats how the real world works

[celest surge]

Oh there is a lot of tribalism in programming languages. Some folks, once they form an opinion and organize in a group, they dont want to change their opinion even if they are irrational. We can call this political, religious, or whatever. It is the same.

In any case, the tech (crypto) will go to the background eventually. It will vary and depend how each projects manages the journey.

At some point even the haters will appreciate true digital ownership and that their assets can not be frozen, like in the past. And eventually realizing that it is enabled by crypto.

[stuck glacier]

Well said ❤️

[stuck glacier]

Don't change it.
Illuvium is the stand out word here.

Crypto haters will hate on crypto games regardless of the wording used.

If going by your premise, fight for eth will turn people away, as soon as they get to anything that says crypto they will turn away.

How long do you hide it for. It would seem completely disingenuous, extremely pretentious and give the idea we think web2 gamers are morons.

It's part of the lore.
If someone says 'fight for eth'
Tell them what it means.
If they still say scam say ok.

The proof will be the game, and I truly believe the evidence is the only way you will get people changing their minds.

The points you make sound convincing, yet if you look closely at it, they come from fear. Fear not enough people will even try it due to a slogan.

Fight the fear.

Trust the process.

It's not the slogan that caused the comments you see, or saw in mindblasts (? ) Stream and will continue to see. It will probably get worse before it gets better. It's a dichotomy and it won't change until they see it for themselves.

[thick siren]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[stuck glacier]

Adding one more thing, Aaron has mentioned many times it's a core part of the law.
Taking it away, as he stated, changes it.
We are not in a position to argue that as we did not put our heart and soul Into writing it.

[loud sinew]

We are a DAO. If there is a change we can make that is beneficial as a whole and the only downside is someone has to rewrite some lore then that is what we should do. Now is changing the slogan that impactful? Maybe maybe not I don't know.

[zenith agate]

the dao is a business after all

[loud sinew]

Exactly. If we have to hurt one persons feelings to do what is best for the whole than that is what we should do.

[stuck glacier]

Yes we can, yet there are some points as a DAO we need to consider the people making the game. If it was beneficial to gain a few more views before they turn away otherwise, maybe, yet then that would need to be weigthed on the effect it has to the creator and the changes that need to be made.

[loud sinew]

Yah the effectiveness of removing the slogan would have to be evaluated

[stuck glacier]

Yet not a standard one, decentralization means we can be different.

[zenith agate]

imo a fair way is to do a market research

[stuck glacier]

Who would do it?

[zenith agate]

we still need revenue, decentalized or not

[zenith agate]

i usually hire 3rd party.

[stuck glacier]

Sure, yet keep in context here. Do you really think it makes that much of a difference. The only time I think about it is when someone brings it up.

[loud sinew]

People here are not the best focus group because of our prior knowledge and bias

[stuck glacier]

so we pay for something, to find out if its going to loose us money, yet don't count the human cost. Aaron may disagree here, yet he doesn't seem like the kind of person to put a lot of emphasis on something that's not important.

[zenith agate]

i wont spesifically comment on our slogan, thats why we need market research. but generally in branding, yes, lots of diff.
Logo and slogan are very important

[stuck glacier]

sure but you get my point right. when was the last time you thought about it?

[loud sinew]

Very rarely.

[stuck glacier]

Just to sentiment or to the IIP?

[zenith agate]

context is to new people. not existing community

[stuck glacier]

yet specifcally to people we think are not wanting to touv=ch the game beacuse it says fight for eth?

[zenith agate]

idk if the team regularly use market research. but that pretty much the norm in web2

[zenith agate]

really depends on who we want to target

i dont even know our targeting so

[stuck glacier]

Given its a reaction to crypto and the game is based around it, thus a new person would find out anyway, your betting the small amount of time they view is enough to keep them interested.
then what's the reaction. oh damn scammers or oh this is a crypto game i might look a little more. I think thats a waste of resources.

[thick siren]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[zenith agate]

kieran made a speech about getting rid all crypto reference

[stuck glacier]

what do you mean?

[stuck glacier]

How long ago was that?

[zenith agate]

i dont know the project targeting strategy, so i cant comment

[stuck glacier]

I haven't seen that happen have you?

[zenith agate]

hmm cmiiw the gold coast crypto event

[stuck glacier]

The target has been stated.

[stuck glacier]

I was there i dont remember that speech?

[zenith agate]

someone recorded it and shared it in chat

[sour shale]

The website changed before. They got rid of all the crypto stuff like "NFT's"
And we will get a new updated website soon too.

[stuck glacier]

cool. yet i wonder how much will be taken away. Will it be taken from the descriptions? what the game is about?

[sour shale]

We are a Blockchain game. You can't hide that fact. You can hide the word NFTs or the word Crypto.

[stuck glacier]

Regarding the actual idea, its stating it makes people think we are fighting for Ethereum right? and that is turning people away?

[sour shale]

Don't think fight for eth turns them away. The most people ask is this a crypto game or they know it before and that scares the people.

[stuck glacier]

yes, i agree yet how to explain stuff without saying cryptocurrency or what the illuvials are after you have caught them?

[sour shale]

People from web 2 don't know what ETH is.

[stuck glacier]

Maybe.

[sour shale]

Do you need to explain it? You can say. The assists are yours and you can sell it or buy it or whatever you want.

[zenith agate]

thats should be answered by the marketing research

[sour shale]

Ask your friends that are not in Crypto if they know what ETH is.

[zenith agate]

they do

[stuck glacier]

if they never see the on chain process possibly, yet its going to come up at some point. again it just seems weird and like a few people have said seems like we have to hide it because it is bad,

[sour shale]

It's not bad. They are scared of being scammed. Nobody wants to lose money.

[stuck glacier]

For sure.

[sour shale]

Don't hide what you are. If they Google Illuvium they will find out anyway.

[stuck glacier]

I would be against that as a complete waste of money.

[zenith agate]

thats for the dao to decide

[stuck glacier]

100 percent.

[stuck glacier]

I know, im speaking as member of the DAO, yet i guess if you can get enough people with enough ilv you can get what you want.

[sour shale]

And if they change it. Because the DAO wants that. They are crying after that when we get another delay because the lore needs to be new.

[zenith agate]

i asked someone in general about the slogal yesterday. he received as arena rewards in crypto/nft

[stuck glacier]

Im passionately using my right as a DAO member to argue this would not be in the interest of the DAO.

[stuck glacier]

Sorry i dont understand?

[sour shale]

Ya because we don't know anything about it yet.
Why change something we don't have any idea about it.

[zenith agate]

the person thinks that "Fight for ETH" means he is getting crypto/nft rewards for playing

[sour shale]

You get indirect. You collect and can sell for eth.

[stuck glacier]

And did you tell them it wasn't? I thought that to.

[zenith agate]

i just showed him what the bot say about earning

[stuck glacier]

So maybe we could say instead, it's actually a significant aspect of the law that is not about Ethereum. However the game is on chain and this is how you can earn...

[zenith agate]

#💬〕general message

[sour shale]

Or we wait until we know what Fight for Eth actually means.

[zenith agate]

i believe, in marketing sense, If u have to explain something you have lost the customer

[stuck glacier]

So you baited him.

[zenith agate]

no i conducted a market research

[stuck glacier]

then didn't inform

[zenith agate]

ok

[stuck glacier]

I dont see that being the case in this context. There are many things to explain. So perhaps we get some youtubers or a subcontext that says 'Fight for Eth' is about the lore. educate so people know. Regardless having people will still ask or assume.

[stuck glacier]

Im not arguing people with think it means Ethereum. There is nothing else that says it doesn't, so its an obvious conclusion. yet its not.

[zenith agate]

the customers may not care what you intended, its only what they perceived to be true

[stuck glacier]

You have an agenda and an angle, try find a differnt way to solve it.

[stuck glacier]

So lets look more at how to change the perception rather than the whole slogan and lore.

[zenith agate]

as a council, i dnt vote ideas. either way im here to facilitate

[sour shale]

Or don't say anything and wait the last few months for Open Beta. Then we will know. We don't have many players yet. So it doesn't hurt much. If you spread the word now. Hi fight for eth means... Would hurt much more.

[stuck glacier]

Exactly.

[stuck glacier]

yet you are putting in your ideas.

[zenith agate]

yes ive given my opinion, i dnt think it is necessary to change the slogan

and i provide what i know about slogan from marketing pov

and what i usually do to solve dissenting opinions. With data

[stuck glacier]

okay well I've said enough.

it felt like you were arguing with me

[stuck glacier]

Data can tell you data it doest lie yet people can twist it however they want.

[zenith agate]

ok

[stuck glacier]

I can see I was wrong about the baiting comment, and just trying to find out what he thought, Yet id argue you could go a step further and see what happens when they know the actual case for it.

Have both data sets

[zenith agate]

i think he was looking to earn

not sure what he means by P2E being advertised

[stuck glacier]

did you ask?

[zenith agate]

i forgot

[sour shale]

It isn't an advertising point yet for play 2 earn.
Say only that there is no earning yet. This will come with public beta. More Infos soon.

[zenith agate]

ill try and ask the person

[stuck glacier]

Most people will see crypto game and assume play to earn as that's been the past standard. It only has to say on chain. I think they used to say that way at the beginning of beginnings

[stuck glacier]

Yeah it would be interesting to know.

[zenith agate]

well thats exactly what i would search about crypto game. how to earn

[stuck glacier]

Yeah lol. I guess it has connotations like you would grind and earn token. Also just thinking its not so much that data can get twisted yet the questions asked can lead the data to a predetermined conclusion.

[sour shale]

I guess the question that needs to be asked is, what do I need to earn something.
Because most games you earn by selling your stuff.

[zenith nebula]

What would this mean to you guys?

[zenith agate]

ordi crypto game?

[zenith nebula]

To me its confusing.. as it could be wager btc, earn btc, mine btc while gaming. it's not an intriguing confusion either where I want to learn more, it's an annoying confusion that makes me want to bounce.

To confirm I don't want to hide crypto from the site or anything remotely like that, I just think the slogan is weird, at least as it stands right now with no lore to back it up.

[zenith agate]

if we have wager it would make sense

or ETH prize

[median totem]

Wouldn't Make any Sense for wager...
Or do you have to go in the cage and fight if u wager on an Mama fight?

[zenith agate]

back in the days i used to do wager for CS deathmatch or dota 1v1

whales gonna love it. its the battle of ego

pros with/without sponsors can fight to earn eth

for me, wager and side wager were the kicker

[median totem]

And i believe that... Yet, idk how one can think about wager when reading the slogan 🙃

[zenith agate]

no, not just by reading the slogan

it would be just pure P2E

[zenith agate]

@analog compass it has reached the minimum of 25 upvotes. let us know if you want to proceed. i can help facilitate

[stuck glacier]

I probably would have thought it was for the coin. Like I did when I first saw the original one.

I'm feeling from what Aaron has said about it, that the lore may be around the idea of Etherium.
Like the possibilities and the journey it's had so far. Like Vitaliks ultimate dream on how it can change the world in a good way, along with all the nefarious and dark aspects of what people do with the technology.

[analog compass]

Wait I need to do something now 😄?

I just wanted the marketing team to get in a room, discuss the possibility that the current “headline” or whatever you want to call it on the landing page may not be the optimal one, come up with a few alternatives and run a simple headline test to see over the next 6 months if any lead to a lower bounce rate or higher click through rates.

We shouldn’t have to change lore.

It’s not about hiding it’s about optimising.

@glacial brook How do you feel about this?

[zenith agate]

if you like you can propose to update the slogan

through an IIP

you can put the things you would like the team to do

otherwise the idea may/may not be implemented by the team

[zenith agate]

Let's wait 24 hours for andrew to respond. after that i try other marketing team member

[sour shale]

And its not only on the website. on every merch too if i am right.
Fight for ETH on my Jacket, Hoodie ....

[zenith agate]

its on bulldogs jersey?

[sour shale]

idk i don´t have one.

[clever dagger]

I don’t think so

[stoic lichen]

I love the slogan if they can actually let us fight for Eth on public launch. If we still can’t bet Eth in competitive battles when we officially launch it doesn’t make sense to keep it as a slogan

[stuck glacier]

Its kind of like we do in a round about way, yet we are not using them in a fight and then earning eth. The slogan is about the lore. my personal preference is to wait until we find out about before making decisions with the slogan.
@analog compass Im feeling you may get some good feedback from, core team members if you brought this up in an AMA? However I think if you don't do an IIP at this point nothing else will happen from it, my guess, its been discussed before and the result no its not changing.

[zenith agate]

andrew has not respond

[zenith agate]

do you know anyone from marketing?

[clever dagger]

Not besides Kieran.

[true whale]

Kieran Andrew tarren rich

[clever dagger]

Oh yeah. Tarren.

I know him

[zenith agate]

@astral ocean @stark lynx hi guys we are trying to get some feedback from the marketing team on this. thanks

[stark lynx]

I’m marketing?

https://tenor.com/view/nope-no-way-gif-24547692

#1179593595473363064 message

I echo this sentiment

[astral ocean]

What’s the question?

[zenith agate]

#1179593595473363064 message

[celest surge]

It is an acceptable request to limit the change on the landing page. It is not change-it-everywhere or change-it-nowhere. We can change it somwhere and that is fine.

[sour shale]

You cannot change our slogan on the frontpage and let the old one sit on other products. If you change a slogan then change it everywhere.

[celest surge]

You can for sure. Your opinion of all or nothing has been noted.

[sour shale]

Ya whatever.

[celest surge]

My opinion is:

• at least change it on the landing page
• im ok if it is changed everywhere
• least favorable option to leave it as is

[sour shale]

You're all gonna cry when we need to delay the game because the lore needs to be rewritten.
If you change Fight for ETH you change the lore. That's how I got it. And because we are only a few steps away from public beta and cinematic trailer is 95% done. (Maybe its something in the trailer, idk) but ya

[celest surge]

We all want what is best for the project. And we do so with the context that we have so far.
If you believe that the pro-voters (to change the slogan) are missing crucial context, then this could actually be true. In which case it seem that it would be important to fix that. I mean the missing context. So the team may need to step in and explain why things are the way they are.

What the slogan actually means etc.

[sour shale]

And this will come with public beta.

[astral ocean]

Grant has already mentioned it’s associated with the lore which is unknown to the public.

I don’t think anything I have to say will add value to this conversation

[celest surge]

At the same time, when skimming over the expressed concerns. The criticism and concerns still seem to apply, such as "sounds too much like crypto". Perhaps it is something that is better shown in a section that explains the lore, for example. As opposed to be the very first thing that is shown on the landing page, without any further context to the visitors.

[sour shale]

The website gets an update too soon.

[zenith agate]

all right thanks tarren.

[stuck glacier]

I was just thinking, would an explanation in an about page be enough.
On the web site ( if it's not about to be or already included somewhere) it could have the slogan and a brief overview of what it means?

[analog compass]

The idea is to update the title on the site. I don’t know why people keep talking about the lore.

No one is asking to change the lore.

I don’t care if ETH is some rock you mine in IZ.

The title is bogus.

When does a website title need to contain lore or lore need to be changed to align with headline.

If we changed it to “Fight and collect” for random example, why would we need to remove ETH from the lore.

ETH was the most confusing, option to choose for a part of the lore though that is a seperate subject.

There is confusion that the headline on the site is referring to ETH token and also gamers may be turned off assuming it’s a play to earn game.

Keep the lore. Think of a better title.

[opaque swallow]

Let me join Master Doka here. A lot of people seem to be confused with the point of this thread. We are not asking for any change in the lore. I'm just as curious about Aaron's lore as the next guy.

We are simply asking that while we are still waiting for the lore to be public - which will be several more months - let's replace the confusing slogan, since no one knows what it really means. And yet, it's the first thing that hits the visitor in the face on the home page.

At least 3 of us suggesting the same thing are marketing professionals. We want the best for the project. And we are very aware how important the first 3 seconds spent on a website are for conversion. There is 0 benefit for keeping a slogan on the most prominent place of a website that can only be confusing people. (since no one knows the real meaning of it until the lore becomes public).

Here is the step-by-step of our suggestions:

Step 1 - Log in to the website, click into the H1 header that says "Join the fight for ETH", update it to something that is not confusing (for example, "Explore, collect, fight") and hit Save. It takes 20 seconds.

Step 2 - Wait until open beta

Step 3 - Log in to the website, click into the H1 header that says "Explore, collect, fight", change it back to "Join the fight for ETH", hit Save. It takes 20 seconds again.

NO changes to the lore. NO changes to the trailer, the inside of merch etc. NO delays. NO hiding that we are a crypto game.

Only the benefit of not confusing - and potentially turning off - some visitors WHILE we are waiting for the lore. This is also why changing nothing and waiting for open beta is NOT the solution to the issue we are debating. Once open beta comes, this whole thread becomes obsolete. It's about the period between now and open beta.

[stuck glacier]

I don't think it really matters what we are all saying here. Unless I'm mistaken, this has to go to the next process to get anymore feedback from those who can actually say yay or nay.
Check out the governance info.
Feedback and idea gauge sentiment, then if it gets enough interest and the creator or person responsible, goes forward. If not It just stays here and probably eventually gets closed.
It's been designed that way to take the load of the core team.
As I mentioned before maybe this is an AMA question.
Or it needs to go forward to an IIP.
I'm sure you can imagine how busy all the team members are at the moment, especially marketing.

[zenith agate]

every thing said here will be taken into consideration when the ICC vote on the IIP

ICC can ask for team's comment

when ready, waylan can ask ICC or me to help him write the IIP

[stuck glacier]

What IIP?

Whats IIC? Sorry

[stuck glacier]

Am I correct or have I got the process wrong?

[zenith agate]

IIP is the proposal. ICC is the community council who vote on IIPs before it's taken to the IMC.

[stuck glacier]

Cool so an IIP needs to happen for it to reach yay nays. Doesnt it need up votes to get to IMC?

I better read it again myself.
Doesn't seem like he wants to.

[stuck glacier]

Okay so yeah, the ICC makes sure all views are heard ect. If it goes to an IIP, which if agreed upon goes to the IMC where a decision is made.
Was my wording off.
Views are heard what I mean is that the content doesn't matter in that multiple voices can be heard.
I get the comment about the lore not being relevant. That did change through the conversation. It was never really stated until Aaron mentioned it would be a problem.
I think there could be a compromise

Like the desenting opinion will be mentioned along with the for, yet we don't make the decision.

It's needs to be approved, go to IMC then vote if enough support from community. Is that right?

[zenith agate]

ICC role is to screen proposals and make summary of the community sentiment. IMC will be the one who has the final say

[stuck glacier]

Yeah thanks I was just thinking splendor's proposal was denied at that level. Or was It by a different council at that point.

[zenith agate]

gov 2 was a bit more complicated

[stuck glacier]

Yeah I remember

So to clarify you made a comment because I said it didn't matter what was said?

[zenith agate]

yes

[stuck glacier]

Okay, would have been nice to make that more direct and obvious.
At this point it feels like it doesn't as it's not going anywhere.
He said he just wanted to have a conversation.

[zenith agate]

in the gov v3 IIP, ICC role is to gather community sentiment and ensure the community is heard

[stuck glacier]

What's the new process for feedback/ideas that don't continue either from the author not wanting to go anywhere or not enough votes?

[zenith agate]

nothing will be done if theres no proposal

[stuck glacier]

Im not denying that.

[true whale]

Basically, it's up to the team to consider if it doesn't go a proposal route. So it's good that it was captured as a feedback and team was able to put their positions in

[stuck glacier]

I also ran for council, I'm talking about this context.

[stuck glacier]

Yes definitely. I feel this is the best way.

Are people still able to make IIPs without going in here first?

[zenith agate]

yes

[clever dagger]

Only council members could do that I think. Oh… yeah ⤵️

[stuck glacier]

I thought that had changed

[zenith agate]

technically. anyone can make proposals and they need to use https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1126838877429182506

[stuck glacier]

Oh well it's going to be fun in a few months

[true whale]

Yup. You can go straight to governance idea with a well threshed out IIP

[zenith agate]

i really do hope the community is going to write a lot of proposals. Thats what ICC is there for

[clever dagger]

I forgot where this thread is.

[stuck glacier]

I know we can all make proposals, I was under the impression it was meant to go here first.

[zenith agate]

the feedback/ideas is more welcoming to the community. and you dnt need token to comment

[stuck glacier]

Lol.
I probably argue too much and keep it going. It doesn't need it. Yet I just want to make sure I'm getting my understanding right.

[zenith agate]

i am really big on making it easier, encouraging the community to come up with proposals

[stuck glacier]

Yeah it's great. I believe all possible proposals should go through here before they are IIPs.

That way everyone can have a say. It's not gated to tokens.

It gives a better representation of the community sentiment.

Anyways. I've over talked in here.
I have ideas for better flow. Yet I'm keeping them to myself this time.

[zenith agate]

@analog compass

[loud sinew]

We can literally vote for it to change

[zenith agate]

If anyone want to sponsor it

[analog compass]

I can’t be bothered trying to push this. Team seem like it’s essential it remains for reasons they don’t want to share.

I’m just going to have faith in their decision.

Would have been nice for them to jump in here and say that explicitly.

[weak magnet]

And ruin the lore for the launch of the game and risk losing millions of dollars in revenue from some great marketing opportunities. Worth it ❤️

I'm sorry to be a bit sassy but if they haven't told the council 3 epochs straight then it must be important is all

[analog compass]

You don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. I’ll give you an example so it makes sense.

“Hey I know you believe that the tag line is not suitable for x and y reasons though we have purposely selected this for reasons we can’t discuss, we also can’t change the title for reasons we can’t discuss, it’s more than just a tag line we have chosen, yes it’s tied to the lore though it’s something more than that, we need this to be the tag line and we would like you to have some faith until it has been disclosed.”

Aaron did say if we changed this we need to change the lore. I asked why would the lore need to change and he just ignored me.

It’s a tag line after all.

[weak magnet]

If you don't think Aaron is doing the right thing then start a discussion on forcing them to tell us. Then we can vote on that instead 🙂 It is a DAO after all

[analog compass]

Like I said before I do have faith in the team I would just have preferred someone drop in here and communicate with us. Rather than us outsiders talking about it for so long for them to say “it’s not changing”

[sour shale]

they will not leak any of the lore. and i would be angry about the community if they try to change something he is working for months if not years on that.

[weak magnet]

That doesn't sound like faith. Look I know the team quite well. If it was possible for them to have given us anything more than they have. They would have I promise you.

[analog compass]

Let’s not forget Aaron was a tennis coach for most of his professional career.

Tell me one notable game he has worked on?

[analog compass]

I could create an IIP, am I doing that?

[sour shale]

it doesn´t matter what he did before.
Do it IMC will decline it.

[weak magnet]

You're welcome to

[analog compass]

I know it will be declined. I’m not wasting my time and you should stop wasting yours

[sour shale]

and you should not waste the time from the team. they have much more to do than this. public beta is around the corner. they have no head for stuff like this. and we had that now a few times.

[analog compass]

That’s part of the reason I’m not creating the IIP.

Don’t say yeah they should have not let this chat thread go on for so long. Better communication from the team would have been nice.

Don’t worry about the 34 people that voted on this.

Team is always right in what they do.

[sour shale]

not everytime but this is something they working on since the beginning. and its something big. not like some prices from d1sks ...

[loud sinew]

This is ridiculous. It is certainly possible for them to share things and there are plenty of things that they keep secret that dont need to be.

[celest surge]

There has been no ask to change the lore.
The ask is to consider tweaking the landing page, so "Fight for ETH" is not the very first thing that new users see. This does not imply that we need to remove fight for eth from the lore.

Regardless if Fight for ETH ends up tying to the smartest and best lore that has ever been created, an argument can be made that the current landing page is not ideal, as it clearly creates confusion, even among us who are here since the beginning. Think of new users, and especially web2 gamers.

[stuck glacier]

Hey Master Doka,
I get where you are coming from. I have a feeling it is partly to do with the change over in governance. Along with new procedures.
Whilst the team can and do take time to read these or respond, they are not required to. It's my understanding that's what the community council is for.
It is still worth talking about it.
Right now I believe the lack of communication is simply due to the huge work load they have at the moment.
However I do feel it's something that needs to be clarified.

You can always ask in the next AMA when you have captive team members.

[stuck glacier]

@signal inlet seeing as your about, could you jump In here for Master Doka

[weak magnet]

Where's the confusion from the landing page sorry? Eth will be used to travel into the overworld. I'm pretty close to it tho so I might be missing it

[celest surge]

Various folks shared their perspective about this in this thread.

From my point of view (and there is some overlap with others):

Illuvium OGs: "Sounds like we can battle each other with ETH and the winner takes it all"
Web3 audience: "Sounds like I can earn ETH when I play the game. All right, let me start play 2 earn right now"
Web2 audience / gamers: "Hm... I know that ETH is crypto and isnt that the project that made GPU prices skyrocket in the the past and that ruins the environment ? F this project, bye"

[weak magnet]

I dont agree with any of those points but I'll take it onboard that the community feels that way

[analog compass]

You think the entire Illuvium community knows what “Fight for ETH” means?

You believe that new people that land on the website are going to read “Fight for ETH” and not think you can play this game and earn ETH?

Bro, go do some market research.

[weak magnet]

🤣🤣 alright lol will do sir

[analog compass]

Kieran states “Players are going to come onboard and not even know they’re playing a crypto game”

The headline of the website.

“Join the fight for ETH”

[celest surge]

Research and data-driven is all good, though some times, like in this case, there is no need if you can draw a clear conclusion by intuition.
Two things are very clear here:

1. When someone reads ETH, they will assume it is Ethereums coin.
2. When someone reads "Fight for it" they will assume that they can acquire ETH. Either from a pool or directly from another party.

If anybody here does not agree with that, there is certainly a very big mindset mismatch among us.

There are many things we can argue about and consult data. This is not it.

[celest surge]

I wonder however, if the ask is more generally to avoid crypto-terminology related exposure to our gamers and if a potential IIP should be considered around that instead.
Because in that case, if there consensus, as an implication it would also address the Fight-for-ETH slogan on marketing material such as the landing page.

This is a question for @analog compass

[red sorrel]

I haven't read all of the above but skimmed over it:
I personally see no reason to change it for these reasons:

• It's part of the lore
• What happens in say 5 years if/when ETH becomes per say 'cool' and is ultra sound money then most of this sentiment would change and if not be a mass positive for marketing
• This wont stop gamers coming in IMO. If the game is fun and we market it in the right way, no-one will care.

And open to feedback as always

[weak magnet]

Someone had to say it

[surreal cove]

Who’s going to tell the ESRB that fight for ETH is not referring to the ETH token?

It’s got play to earn written all over it.

It doesn’t matter if you guys think it’s a good tag line. Look at the poll, half the voters want it updated.

@weak magnet @red sorrel

[celest surge]

on a related note

[proud portal]

didnt even get the tagline right but remembered the 'ETH' part

[weak magnet]

I mean Grand Theft Auto doesn't tell consumers to go steal cars but okay?

[celest surge]

further context on the Gods Unchained case:

There is certainly more to the story than meets the eye. Our team is well connected with Immutable, so I guess they will find out what actually happened.

[weak magnet]

Im definitely interested to find out more on the case. They've been on Epic for a long time so it seems super random

[celest surge]

The reason why I shared this post is not so much about the Epic incident.
It is a data point how people perceive our slogan.
Like already explained before, I dont actually think that we need data / evidence for this. Just shared it as it jumped right into my screen

[celest surge]

For sure. Learning about the details would be good.

Epic is not anti crypto per se, otherwise they would not approve us.

[weak magnet]

Reading on it now. It would be insane if a tag line of any kind tipped the ESRB over the edge. If they r gonna deem us adult for crypto features, a slogan won't have any extra impact. It might make it happen faster sure, but it wouldn't change the end result at all

[celest surge]

It is a good question if a tag line can violate ESRB even though there is no play 2 earn element available (at least not now)
and I can imagine that the nature of p2e matters. Such as if you receive a token for playing (maybe not ok ?) VS secondary sales (should be ok, I guess)

[weak magnet]

So the reasoning stated is that players can earn GODS for playing matches. Which is direct monetary gain from gameplay. unless u include systems like the illuvium beyond leaderboard illuvium doesn't actually have any such systems currently, but it's pretty subjective

[stuck glacier]

lol axie trying hard to eliminate the competion. If they continue this way epic will also have to ban every crypto game. shrapnel, blocklords, and others

[celest surge]

This is great info. I wonder if we can get in trouble if there are sporadic rewards that the team distributes or for tournaments.

Price pools for tournaments should not be anything bad as they already exist in web2. The question is more like if it is ok if the price is in crypto tokens VS just USD

[celest surge]

Super toxic, whoever posted that.

They want to make a case for their crypto native store.

[stuck glacier]

Yep ive seen them post this kind of stuff before

[weak magnet]

Itsnpurely to do with real world gain. Actually if anything it means they treat crypto as if it's a fiat currency.

[weak magnet]

Not sure where they draw the line but I suspect it has to be direct. Eg play the game and it spits out money. Not play a tournament hosted by a different company

[celest surge]

Then, what about the leaderboard rewards for Illuvitars. Arguably, they are on our website and not the game client that is downlaoded.

and have their been discussions to have ILV rewards for ranking in Arena ? I may have read this somewhere in our discord

We may need to outsource everything to Ethlizards 😄

[surreal cove]

It’s a massive red flag, don’t be clueless.

[weak magnet]

Nick has talked about it. See thats where it gets interesting. The rewards are sent to your wallet after the fact. Not as a direct result of an ingame action. But it's so subjective u could guess either way

[weak magnet]

I said it would certainly speed up the process, but again it wouldn't change the outcome, unless we suspect their org only does surface level research when making their judgement. Which would be unfair to assume

[celest surge]

It will probably be good if the team can share more on this whole topic. I can imagine that it will cause some unrest within our community as more folks see the news.

[surreal cove]

Yeah once they play the game and understand the lore… 🙃

[zenith agate]

you need KYC to onboard/offboard crypto, so being adult is a requirement

[zenith agate]

@steady mulch

good thing we dont have wager yet

[zenith agate]

we are going to have leaderboard incentive

@weak magnet

[loud sinew]

Obviously the slogan is damaging to the brand but the question is by how much.
If it's a significant amount then we just change it and no worries
If it's an insignificant amount that won't make much of an impact then we leave it

[weak magnet]

You dont crypto at all to play the game, but u can say the same about GODS

[weak magnet]

I mean damaging in Web 2 circles sure, an SEO power move in Web 3 circles. I personally believe the 2 'worlds' eventually merge tbh and I don't think bending over to the closed minds of web 2 gamers who will probably find the game too complex anyways is a smart move. Also I dont know many web 2 gamers that hate NFTs, just the loud minority I see on reddit. Also when u really think about demographics Illuvium targets an older demographic which is very different to current web 2 and mobile gamers. We actually target the web 3 space naturally with our games genre and complexity

[celest surge]

Kids seem to like Illuvium too. I showed Arena + the Overworld to the kids of a relative and they were blown away. Age around 11 years old. There are also some other community members that have shared footage of their kids playing the game, drawing Illuvials at school, etc.
This is a very big deal, if these observations scale (aka if many kids end up liking Illuvium)

[weak magnet]

Yeah I'd like Illuvium to resonate well with kids but unfortunately many of its systems don't accomplish that. Purely on the financial side. But maybe T0 and the free to play aspects will resonate super well, hopefully

[zenith agate]

are we not going to use epic launcher post OB?

plus we are going to have leaderboard incentive

[weak magnet]

We may still use the Epic launcher in some way. Its all about whats best for the consumer, it being as easy and safe to download as possible is the obvious choice. Epic is one of those avenues, steam would be another

[clever dagger]

Axiepuff is pretty obviously just slinging mud

[distant lagoon]

To be clear, this was only my initial thoughts and impressions based on just the videos and emails i recieved 6mknths or so ago. However, I thought it would be worth sharing what first brought me to Illuvium 6 or so months ago...which was the slogan. Take it for it's worth, I'm just one person.

I'm saw the slogan from a promo email, and was super hyped. Watched some videos, and thought hell yeah, a chance to play a game and earn ETH! Count me in for sure. This is ingenious, a gameverse where SimCity meets MTG Online + MMO Open Worlds with harvesting, crafting, resource and inventory management. All sharing the same in-game markets with real world currency. What's not to love?

If the slogan was based or cards battling, I would not have clicked that first link. That was all initially based on zero research and videos only.

[celest surge]

Follow up on the Gods Unchained Epic Store drama since we discussed it here: