IMX in the safety pool

[hasty crypt]

Hey everyone,

Just a small one, we are counting the IMX into the safety pool balance, however we likely cannot or should not liquid that as they are a good partner and dumping tokens for our benefit isn't ideally the best optics.

We could roll them back into the treasury, however what's the point if we are not able to sell them.

I think we should remove them from the pool and unfortunately have a little further to go on filling the pool.

Also we should probably look at doing something unique with the IMX tokens that brings both Immutable and Illuvium some enhanced exposure.

Perhaps a flash pool of sorts or community rewards.

Interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

Pros and cons

All the best,
Josh 🚀

[tidal cypress]

I am going to let those who are more intelligent in this kind of manner be the main focus of this thread BUT I do think that this idea makes a lot of sense and I look forward to reading through everyone's thoughts

[boreal slate]

How much $ of the safety pool is currently made of imx?

[neon light]

It depends how the $IMX was acquired imo.

[little finch]

Frens don't dump on frens. Liquidity provision can provide yield without getting a bad wrap, but obviously opens us up to impermanent loss.

[frigid lodge]

I might be mistaken but isn't a significant part of IMX's mission to scaffold web3 gaming through the use of IMX token grants that are to be sold to fund development?

[hoary belfry]

Excellent points. I definitely agree with the approach regarding using the IMX tokens to bring exposure to both. Not sure what that would look like though.

My only thought is using IMX instead of ILV as prize for a specific tournament?

[next burrow]

With PVP just around the corner. IMX prize pool?
In effect it would be marketing and would help drive exposure due to the size of the potential prize pool/s offered.

[rotund plover]

I always love Josh's ideas. This man needs to be on committee

[neon light]

This is what I was getting at with my question but agreed

[frigid lodge]

oh I see, I assumed you were talking about sales where transaction fees were collected in IMX. I think the point still stands that Illuvium can be the best partner Immutable has ever had simply by driving traffic and adoption of the platform, and shouldn't also be expected to support the token price if there's a better use for those funds.

[chrome rose]

I entirely agree with @hasty crypt views. IMX is a massive partner and we definitely want to have the best relation with them. The Warwick brothers have already a solid relation with the Fergusons, so I am in favour of removing the IMX tokens from the liq pool and wait a bit more to fill it.

It's whats best for the project, then it's whats best for me.

Shout out to @hasty crypt for being a fucking beast and always proposing things with 100/100 criteria.

[hasty crypt]

Illuvium PvP tournament powered by IMX. I think that could work nicely for both us and immutable. Also keeps our ilv rewards in the treasury.

[dreamy surge]

On Immutascan it looks like: $290,425.
On the last burn report it was: $664,436.
🤷‍♂️

[dreamy surge]

I like pvp prize pool. But if we decide to do nothing with it, it might be worth looking into staking with IMX for 3.5%.

[true scaffold]

yeah - I'm pretty sure it's from rewards for trading that's happened in our marketplace

[candid heath]

That is definitely what they are from. Those imx tokens are from royalty fees. Though it does seem like a lot of imx for fees.

[dawn sequoia]

agreed josh.
anything in the safety pool should be in stables imo otherwise we gonna overshoot or under based on volatility

[candid heath]

This is the wallet receiving the NFT royalties and sales revenue on imx https://immutascan.io/address/0x9989818ae063f715a857925e419ba4b65b793d99?tab=2

[dawn sequoia]

whats this peli?

[candid heath]

Used as prize pool tokens seems smart.

[candid heath]

That’s the wallet the DAO has for all royalty fees. So that’s where you can see exactly how much imx there is.

Crazy thing…. The reality is that the burn report is only counting the eth in there it seems. It’s USD value.

It’s labeled as imx simply because it’s IMX chain address.

That’s an old one

[dreamy surge]

yeah i deleted my previous msg. bc I must have been readying that number wrong... I figured IMX was part of the safety pool, but never understood why or if it should be.

[candid heath]

Actually… hmm it’s possible that it is in fact adding all the values of each token in there.

[candid heath]

Was the one you shared not July?

I can’t seem to find that one you had shared

[dreamy surge]

It was august https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/869632853598699611/1153215942927589386/IMG_4859.png?ex=655afc8a&is=6548878a&hm=1742fb20dddb084206093e79ae2e8f571f17ccbf10b97f9571292e22a75d5f2d&

sry josh

[candid heath]

Actually… it seems like the report probably does add the eth and imx and maybe even other tokens together. For me it does not really matter if the imx tokens are currently counted or not. Either way the imx tokens should not be counted as safety pool but used for something else.

[dreamy surge]

Think we could (or be worth it to) get danny to comment?

[candid heath]

Him and/or Kieran

[true scaffold]

Ya - volume was extra incentivized for a while.

[worthy arch]

how this man didnt make it on council last epoch still baffles me

[rotund plover]

He didn't run

[worthy arch]

the one before

I agree that liquidating the IMX isnt a good idea considering there are a major partner for illuvium.

Liking the idea of of using them as part of a prize pool for funding future tournaments.. would gain HUGE exposure for both parties - especially after illuvium is launched on epic games

[rotund plover]

When I see missed talent opportunities like missing out on Josh, as an investor I can tell you it hurts in the heart and wallet and netherlands

[worthy arch]

is there a possibility for using a portion of the IMX to stake for future rewards?

[rotund plover]

Come into voice, the boys are sitting there silently and are so boring. Let's punish them

[worthy arch]

ikr..

[worthy arch]

cant im doing cleaning & washing xD

[rotund plover]

I left anyway

[glad anchor]

Good idea 💡 I support it

[warped berry]

While I still have yet to read the details on the IMX token rewards, its been confirmed that this is a direct result of the trades in the illuvidex. These are a not unilaterally given to Illuvium but part of the partnership agreement is my working assumption. Assuming this, I dont see any hurdle or bad optics should the DAO decide what to do with it either to convert it for Safety Pool or to give it away as prize pool.

What is important to consider is looking at what will benefit the DAO the most here. Using IMX tokens as a reward for tournaments or leaderboards etc does allow us to save our ILV tokens but the amount is neglible in the grand scheme of things. And at the end of the day, the recipient of the awards would most likely trade it to stables or eth anyway. The narrative would change a bit but the results are the same. We didnt want IMX tokens.

Result: Illuvium givesaway IMX tokens, tokens goes to a small pool of people (winners), IMX tokens are traded as an end result (presumably)

On the other side, if we look at using it to fund the safety pool, it closes the gap for revdis which ultimately sends a stronger signal not just to the DAO but the whole space that we will start disbursing revenue especially with the potential Beyond eSports Team partnership sale just around the corner.

While both have its merits, objectively, I believe that the converting to safety pool would be more beneficial.

P.S. On the part of IMX tournament, I believe this is a different channel which our partnership team can official negotiate with them and they can provide a different set of rewards/tokens for this purpose. I dont see why our protocol would need to do a unilateral marketing for IMX just because were using their tokens as a reward. It would be more beneficial to have an official collaboration to achieve the same result and possibly be bigger with the co-marketing efforts.

[true scaffold]

I agree. Would maybe think otherwise, but we also just allocated funds for tornys.

[next burrow]

Great points, I agree.

[dreamy surge]

If the imx are just rewards for trades on the market I would lean toward filling the safety pool sooner.

If selling is the way we go, I wonder if it could be done in such a way as not to negatively impact imx token price. If we sold in one go it would be about a quarter of uniswap’s 24h volume.

[candid heath]

I assume the DAO could use 1inch to a limit order. (At least I think that’s one of the things 1inch can do)

There’s even a little dex on immutable X network now/again.

[wraith stream]

I think at the very least those tokens can be staked in imx to earn some interest while the DAO figures it out. It's possible we can use this IMX tokens to directly incentivise illuvium usage. For example dropping IMX tokens in personal rewards when minting disks or merch store rebates. Or something new altogether.

[worthy ice]

Great idea actually, can be part of the marketing campaign, enough to fund several tournies with large enough pool

[dawn sequoia]

depends on the goal.
if u want to use the imx for safety pool it has to be sold.
if imx token is not part of safety pool then u can do whatever

first need to establish if IMX is part of the safety pool or not

[candid heath]

Let’s call em in then.

[candid heath]

@low mist are the IMX tokens in the imx wallet that receives the royalties counted as part of the safety pool?
The more recent burn reports did not itemize the tokens in that wallet.

[outer crow]

I actually really like the intend of this idea which I basically read as treating our valued partners as good as possible.

I would caution against implementing too many amendments to the safety pool / revenue distribution though. This is one of the fundamental pillars in the investment thesis, and should only be amended unless there is a large benefit, IMO.

For planning, both investors and team need somewhat stable assumptions.

I do not see the benefits clearly outweighing any risk in making a change to revenue distribution.

Therefore, I do not support this idea. I think the correct approach for this to move forward would be to amend the revenue distribution model to exclude IMX tokens (which I’m also not in favor of 😅)

It all comes down to me believing that it’s of utmost importance to have a stable revenue distribution model, cause I really do like the intend of the idea.

[low mist]

Yes mate, absolutely everything in the IMX wallet is recorded in the safety pool line listing on the burn report

[candid heath]

Thanks. That helps bring some further clarity in here.

[dawn sequoia]

while ur here. wht do u think of selling all the token to stables to finish off the safety pool once and for all?

there is a risk of a pullback

[dawn sequoia]

u cant have a safety pool in crypto, need to be in stables

[outer crow]

It won’t finish it of. It’s already counted. Would secure it for the future though

[dawn sequoia]

alternatively we can replace the IMX with something else if u really worried about image. afaik gamestop dumped their IMX token

[dawn sequoia]

i know treasury shoulndt trade the market, it can go up only, but runaway is supposed to be in stables

IMX is very volatile
we had the korean CEX listing pump and dump

[dawn sequoia]

counted?

[outer crow]

It’s already included in the burn report so won’t add anything. #1172310855229128765 message when converting it would just be stable thereafter. Agree that there should be some process as to when that should happen. Could be each week or a certain threshold

[wraith stream]

This means even some of the sILV2, that was earned not by minting, but from sILV2 denominated sales royalties. Will the DAO use the L1 Uni pool to sell those to get the funds? Or is the sILV2 considered burned?

[low mist]

yep, we spoke about this exact thing today at the IMC meeting. We will be converting the Eth to USDT but retaining ownership of IMX for the time being.

[low mist]

these will be burnt, need the IT team to action this event. These are not considered as funds.

[dawn sequoia]

as for the mechanism, ive briefly mentioned it to @warped berry but maybe can finally do an iip

missed the IMC meeting

[warped berry]

I missed the IMC meeting too since I havent assumed office 😛

[hasty crypt]

The IMX token quantity is negligible almost to the pool to be honest.

Optics wise if the shoe was on the other foot and Immutable were selling our token, outsider looking in, it looks bad, I don't think our token holders would appreciate it. (If you are selling your largest partners token, doesn't make long term holders of said asset look favourably on us)

I think the additional exposure given appropriate utilisation of the tokens outweighs the $ amount lost to the pool. Could drive more sales easily.

For sure speak to Immutable, if they want to add extra incentive then great, win/win.

Also nets a paper gain to the treasury as we don't need to use ILV tokens as rewards.

[warped birch]

I have the same vision. Pointless to be their holders with such a inflation if we want lower Risk collateral bags.

We should mantain a financial approach on this as this is serious for the long term viability of the project, we should not base our judgements in friendship or good vibes with a partner, as there are much more efficient ways to approach this.

[warped berry]

I believe its around 300k thereabouts @cedar bear maybe able to provide specifics as I relied on his info on this.

While I agree its "negligible" compared to the whole 5m usd safety pool, but if you look at how close we are to filling it up, this plus the partnership d1sk sales will get us across the safety pool and open up revdis again.

Faced with the decision of putting 300k up for tournaments when we already have an in-game rewards pool for that very reason vs. filling up the safety pool to start revdis ahead of launch and in the middle of this pump, Im more inclined to go for the latter as this puts a strong narrative on our token.

That being said, the community needs to decide and speak up on this topic asap as the current position and direction of the Labs is that its part of the safety pool.

[hasty crypt]

The use of the tokens could bring in more from the exposure than that of the token value themselves tbh.

[worn gull]

Disagree here, this is revenue, what if some future incentivisation scheme meant that the vast majority of NFT trades were done with IMX, would we not sell that and distribute revenue to token stakers? Of course we would.

That it's temporarily diverted to safety pool doesn't seem relevant or to neccesitate special handling.

---

Or another way:

If there was enough IMX here to be meaningful to Immutable we would need to sell it.

And if there isn't (i.e. as it stands now) there's no harm in selling it.

[hasty crypt]

I agree with you the amount is a drop in the bucket in terms of price action.

More the optics outside looking in, not just Immutable themselves but immutable holders etc if we can avoid any scrutiny at all and bring more eyes to both projects/increase revenue potential through using these elsewhere.

I don't see any harm in the discussion.

[worn gull]

No harm at all, I'm not strong on it, just putting forth my opinion.

And typing on my phone which is making it super tedious to use the right words!

[hasty crypt]

I appreciate you taking the time to give feedback mate, it's appreciated always.

[worn gull]

Also 300k seems way way higher than what I remember. Again on phone so can't check.

But if you do the math on perctage we get that implies a huge volume of IMX trades... even with all the wash trading/rewards chasers it doesn't seem right.

Not sure who come up with that figure but did you use the right number for precision?

(Not certain it isn't right, just notably higher than what I remember)

[twin scaffold]

I 100% agree with you. We shouldn't start making exceptions with regards to revenue and what can and cannot be sold.

[dreamy surge]

what is currently in the IMX wallet 3d99

[warped berry]

@worn gull

[dawn sequoia]

Agree with johnny here. IMX token need to be either sold OR remove from the safety pool.

[worn gull]

No problem I was probably failing to account for increased IMX price.

[cedar bear]

As Danny mentioned, this is something we talked about in the IMC meeting last night.

There's many ways to view this, and many of them have already been mentioned, but I wanted to highlight a key point that I haven't seen yet.

IMX is a great partner, they provide tech that enables ownership of assets on the scale that Illuvium requires. Our agreement with IMX means that our success is IMX's success, and the scope and scale of what that can look like far outweighs the implications of selling IMX tokens as part of our risk management strategy. Reference: #📣〕announcements message

Runway is something we take seriously, and as a few have mentioned, holding volatile assets in the Safety Pool is contrary to the point of having a Safety Pool in the first place. We found concensus last night around taking a conservative approach, and authorized Labs to action ETH -> USDT at the soonest opportunity, and to action IMX -> USDT at their discretion, as there may be value in communication with IMX before making that swap.

These actions should allow the Safety Pool to be filled before the end of the year, and will help in creating a strong narrative around Illuvium as we're approaching Open Beta, and the overall benefit to the DAO (and consequently, the DAO's partners) is very compelling.

[cedar bear]

The two wallets in question are the IMX wallet and the ETH L1 wallet.
https://immutascan.io/address/0x9989818ae063f715a857925e419ba4b65b793d99?tab=2

https://etherscan.io/address/0xba085e0a14801c8c7a919a90304e75cabb7e3917

[boreal slate]

Appreciate the update @cedar bear ! I'll be sleeping soundly tonight knowing we're locking in being close to finishing the safety pool off with converting to stables

[dawn sequoia]

settled

[hasty crypt]

No ideas perfect but I honestly think the loss of value of the tokens will matter very little to the safety pool.
and likely the added exposure using them for a prize for a PVP tourney would net you way more sales and exposure into our ecosystem and likely give Immutable some nice exposure also.

[twin scaffold]

Perfect 👍

[dawn sequoia]

the IMX token is worth $340k?
it may not be much but arent we struggling to fill $500k since wave2?
personally i just want the safety pool to finish asap.

the alternative is to exchange the IMX token with treasury's stables

[candid heath]

Flexible accounting

[naive void]

Great feedback in here everyone. The team and some council members have weighed in above and given the feedback as to where we landed in IMC on this and runway topics. The biggest point I'll reiterate is that we've been watching the numbers and have a very clear pathway forward to finishing off the safety pool and turning revdis back on.

Our goal is to activate that as soon as possible. The community has been very supportive about making sure the runway is solidified with the safety pool mechanic put in place and the good news is that it's just about accomplished what we needed. The IMX tokens are an asset provided to us by a valued partner and we'll use them as such but in a careful and deliberate manner. The IMC believes after the discussions with Danny that there are some simple ways to make that work well for everyone and keep a positive perception around both projects that is well deserved.

**TLDR: We'll utilize the IMX tokens carefully. Revdis soon. **

[drowsy merlin]

I think we limit our upside by converting to stables. But I also understand the desire to finish off the safety pool.

[spring tusk]

Not getting the safety pool done and dusted, using the reasoning that we would be selling the IMX token of Illuvium's partner.

What.
The.
...

Optics ? What do you think selling 350k IMX will do to a 1.34b$ market cap coin ? Lol -1% ? 2%? Like.... are you joking?

Illuvium is a business. Illuvium isn't a friendly non-profit entity.

Sell everything. Launch the RevDis narrative. IMX will thanks us 10x with the inflow of people using their platform and alllllll the fees they will get.

[dawn sequoia]

guys do u want me to ask in IMX discord on what they will feel if ILV dump on them?

[hasty crypt]

Small in the box thinking. You could potentially drive more sales and growth using the tokens than just liquidating, finishing the pool faster.

You fail to also grasp that part of the thread is to discuss what the plan is regarding the sale of IMX.

At this juncture the IMC have discussed, and are in the process of liquidating the ETH and labs will make an educated decision likely based on speaking directly to Immutable.

You may not see an issue market selling the tokens, however is it worth the risk doing so when other options can be explored that net the same or better end result without the potential for community or relationship damage.

[naive void]

No one said we wouldn’t sell the tokens. We simply said that dumping 350K all at once in a public market sale at the first signs of life in the market in a year isn’t necessarily the best way to go about it. We are laser focused on getting revdis turned back on.

[dawn sequoia]

so ur selling it?

[glad anchor]

Some great updates on selling IMX for the safety pool. I support doing something rather than nothing.

[ashen thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/illuvium-illuviumio-ilv-yield-farming-gif-22225026

[vapid fjord]

I m trying to find a middle ground here to not sell the IMX token.

Would it be possible that instead of including them in the safety pool, the tresury retake them and kinda buy them to the safety pool at today's value.
so it s a win for the safety pool, it s a little more filled.
the tresury doesn t loose, because they can use those IMX token at better use than sleeping in the safety pool (I don t know staking or whatever)

[dawn sequoia]

yes, i suggested this as well as an alternative

then u can use IMX token for rewards

[hasty crypt]

Its potentially worth a discussion what we do in general with the IMX tokens, Likely post launch we are getting more volume in trades and likely rewards. I think post closure of the safety pool, we have a discussion as the use of the IMX tokens. If the process is market sell/OTC or simply keep them and use them as an additional reward pool. IMO its worth a discussion.

[hasty crypt]

TBH you could offer those IMX tokens to people that are staked at a high weight, additional rewards and incentive to lock up ILV tokens past the yield date. Just a random idea off the top of my head here. (THIS IS POST SAFETY POOL CLOSURE) If we are to sell them and give the funds to stakers via rev dis then I think the process needs to be agreed upon.

[hasty crypt]

Hey all, now the safety pool has been filled, I'd like a discussion on what the process will be for IMX rewards going forward. I think discussing the options would be good.

[dawn sequoia]

Sell for revdis

• reach a minimum amount to sell
• daily RSI above 70

[past torrent]

Are the IMX rewards considered revenue? This may be an opportunity to use those tokens to fund additional projects.

[warped berry]

Might be good to have a separate thread to explore options? I assume you want alternatives other than just selling for eth to buy ilv?

[dawn sequoia]

yes

[hasty crypt]

I'm not against that idea, we could offer the IMX rewards as leader board/tournament rewards also. Saves the ILV perhaps until higher token price.

[dawn sequoia]

we prob have to find out how much % we get for IMX reward

[glad anchor]

I am against the idea as presented 👎 I am doing something with the IMX safety pool tokens . My vote is for a straight rewards drop over time to all 2.0 ILV stakers. We gain 3 outcomes. 1. We reward the most loyal ILV holders. 2. We Don't dump on the market in one go 3. We incentive new holders to choose 12 months lock like the most loyal 2.0 stakers

[spring tusk]

The market absorbed very nicely the 320320 token sold in 1 go last time.

Content of this wallet are our RevDis. Sell and distribute.

[hasty crypt]

Question is if IMX rewards class as revenue and if so, it must be rev dis.

[hasty crypt]

I think if we need to offer them as rev dis, perhaps we can offer them directly to stakers as IMX tokens instead, if that's preferred. So I agree, however the safety pool tokens are now sold. The discussion is the process in which IMX rewards are handled hence forth.

[glad anchor]

RevDis makes sense

[dense wigeon]

Not too Deep into that and too much too read coming so late, but curious.
Where did these imx token came from? Are they coming from fees on the Marketplace?
If so, shouldn't they be sold continuously and paid out in revdis instead of accumulated and give away as rewards?

[hasty crypt]

That's the discussion to be fair, they are from fees+rewards etc. If they are to be sold and paid into revdis then that's fine, however the agreed process upon which we do that can be discussed. Right now the amounts are low but if we are very successful we may have a negative affect on IMX price action so exploration of either OTC or giving the IMX as revdis as tokens instead of market selling.

[dense wigeon]

Didn't actually know fees are going to be paid in imx tokens.
But if they do, i feel imx expected those tokens being continuously sold by the Projects developimg on imx to pay dev costs etc... at least i would have expected that.

I think how Big the effect is of a Project selling depends how sucessful it is. Like for now, i haven't Seen the data, but trading volume isn't that high, and imx has a pretty big mc... I feel the impact isn't that high.

[candid heath]

It’s not really gas fees. The imx tokens the DAO has are from the fees paid by the nft buyers that are paying with IMX tokens. Usually things are being bought with ETH. There may also be some other sort of distribution that IMX made to the DAO. But that seems unlikely.

[dawn sequoia]

cmiiw it's the IMX reward/incentive