#ICCP-X Illuvitars Wave 2 Extension & Promo Sale

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

bleak gale
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Simple Summary:

This proposal sets final parameters for Promo D1SKs and extends the launch window for Illuvitars Wave 2.

Overview:

A top-tier gaming partner has been identified by Illuvium Labs and approved by the IMC for Illuvitar Wave 2 Promo D1SKs. For effective engagement with the partner community, an extension is needed to allow marketing activations to occur for the Promo sale.

The new end date for Illuvium Wave 2, including the completion of the Promo sale will be January 15, 2024. Improvements based on community feedback from the Wave 1 Promo D1SKs will be incorporated into the Wave 2 Promo D1SKs including the quantity and type of assets.

Implementation:

Promo Approval & Timing

The details of the Promotional partner have been approved by the IMC and Illuvium Labs. A 7-day Promo D1SK sales window with this partner will take place in December 2023 with exact dates to be announced by Illuvium Labs in advance.

Wave 2 Extension

The Illuvitar Wave 2 sale will be extended to January 15th to allow new Illuvium: Beyond players from the promo sale to participate fully after the Promo window ends.

Promo D1SK Contents

Future Illuvium Promo D1SKs (including Wave 2) will contain 5 assets:
• 1 Promo Illuvitar (pre-bonded accessories)
• 3 Accessories; same weighting as a Mega D1SK of the wave
• 1 Guaranteed Rare Illuvitar; same weighting as a Mega D1SK of the wave

Promo D1SK Prices

The price point in ETH for the Wave 2 Promo D1SKs will be announced by Illuvium Labs before the time of the sale.

Rationale:

No further Wave sales are planned until open beta launch. This allows players to continue with the current wave to avoid a long gap between Wave 2 and Wave 3.

Additionally, the worst experience for new players coming into Illuvium:Beyond is for them not to be able to participate directly in the Wave they are joining and have to resort only to secondary markets. Extending the sale by an additional few weeks after the end of the Promo sale allows players to buy from both Illuvium directly and the secondary market as other players during the wave.

Sponsor:

JP

Key Contributors:

Animositas, Blickter

karmic lion
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Thanks @bleak gale, I have tried on 3 devices to post this and I have no idea why it won't submit lol.

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sharp shadow
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It’s unfortunate for buyers that the wave is being extended but big partnerships like this really have the potential to impact the ecosystem in such a powerful way that I personally believe it should take priority. I think the long term upsides of changes like this are huge and I fully support this proposal 👍

tough herald
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1- That means the partnership will be open when no released game will be available, only a beta ?

2- Why not release wave 3 and have the promo, achieving the same result for promo buyer, they can still buy wave 3.

— The rationale isn’t really one, I don’t see good reason justifying this. If it was 2 weeks ok, but so long, what’s the reason for it ? —

kind axle
# tough herald 1- That means the partnership will be open when no released game will be availab...

Correct, partnership will be upcoming later this year. The partnership is designed to engage their community with Illuvium in advance of open beta. The Promo D1SKs give us an opportunity to start now with more opportunities in the future if this goes well. The partner has requested additional time for the activities, which is why these specific dates were proposed by the team and supported by the councils.

tough herald
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OK for my 1-

Still can’t see a good reason for delaying wave 3. Knowing that the partners and buyer would be in the exact same buying configuration.

faint hamlet
# tough herald 1- That means the partnership will be open when no released game will be availab...
  1. Yes that's correct, we have a number of great partnerships and marketing activations planned for Open Beta.

Promo Collection 2 is scheduled to launch once Beta 3 (Ascendant) is well and truly underway and only once we've had some time to balance PvP.
During this time we will be ramping up marketing activities with the esports partner including a range of activations and tournaments heading into Christmas and telegraphing Open Beta with their community.

  1. Are you suggesting we fast-track/prioritize development of Beyond: Wave 3, or commence Wave 3 ahead of Open Beta? I don't think that's the right decision.
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We have limited resource to allocate to Beyond between now and Christmas.

We want to commit to the following without expending significant BE resource:

  • Wave 2 Sale Config changes
  • Promo Sale improvements such as D1SK contents, Promo Sale Phase running in parallel to Wave 2 Extended Run.
tough herald
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I thought the art team has done many waves already ? Do you suggest each wave require dev ?

faint hamlet
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For me, the size of this partner far outweighs any negative impact of extending the sale. However I do understand this is personal opinion/unfair to suggest given I'm under NDA.

faint hamlet
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There is some dev work involved, there is some additional dev work required to implement the proposed Promo Sale Phase changes. We will have a window with Neil to get these changes done with minimal impact following Beta 3's launch (currently the plan).

tough herald
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So it’s not a proposal, everything is already decided, it’s more an informative note 🤣

Thanks for the info @faint hamlet

dense condor
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I sincerely hope that the promo sales and those "potential" new joiners will somehow compensate for the loss of confidence that this decision will instigate with many (maybe most) of the existing Beyond buyers.
I made substantial disks purchases with wave 2 duration in mind and certain assumptions around supply. Upon reading this proposal, I am just asking myself how can I trust any communicated sales parameters going forward.
Yes, I know this is a DAO but when a product is sold to ppl for actual money, these parameters have to be reliable. I can't think of any serious brand/business who would do something like this (announcing a limited edition / collection then changing the duration or supply midway).
Also, I find the rationale that was provided very weak and it just implies that we're willing to totally disregard existing customers for the sake of potential new ones. if we really want to have new joiners engage with a product then have the promo alongside the games' release and at the start of wave 3 instead. Also, any new joiners would anyways need to buy wave 1 off secondary...
I am curious what did the whales of Beyond say about this when the idea was floated? Were they gauged? (I am top 50 but don't consider myself a whale)

kind axle
# tough herald So it’s not a proposal, everything is already decided, it’s more an informative ...

Partnership negotiations have been allocated to the team to obtain, negotiate terms, and review with the IMC on the agreements before finalization. These have to be finalized months in advance (as this one was) and are often under strict NDAs, especially where publicly traded companies are involved. So that isn't really up for discussion unless we're wanting to breach the agreement. The rest of the IIP is a proposal though and I think we should be happy to have discussions around the rest of the details. We're scheduling a town hall for tomorrow to discuss any questions or feedback that comes up then and the community is encouraged to voice their thoughts.

dense condor
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Also, if the promo disks have a rare wave 2 illuvitar, why do we really need to also keep the wave 2 disk sales open for a whole 2 months? Or why not have that window only re-open one week after promo?

silk hollow
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Imo the only way this 'rationale' would make any sense is if wave 2 is extended indefinitely (not that I would like that). As it is now it seems to me like the worst of both worlds, with the mentioned 'long gap' all but unavoidable.

I would also argue the worst experience for new players would be to be pulled into beyond (/our ecosystem) and fall in love with it. Only to start their beyond adventure by having to wait months untill the next wave, which for some reason can only release once open beta is live.

At which point beyond would almost certainly lose even more of its appeal, because most players (even beyond die hards) will probably spend a huge chunk of their pfp budget on illuvials.

faint hamlet
worn nacelle
# tough herald 1- That means the partnership will be open when no released game will be availab...

Sorry I'll just jump in here.

The challenge we're facing isn't primarily about resources, though there are still some final touches required on the Illuvitars before we can launch Wave 3. The core issue stems from our unintentional push for our community to spend yet again. Feedback from Wave 2 overwhelmingly indicates that our community has largely reached its spending threshold.

While purchasing in Wave 3 isn't mandatory, the structure of the albums creates a de facto need. Players who miss out on this wave are left with the suboptimal option of secondary market purchases, which is far from ideal for our dedicated players aiming to complete their album collections.

Our proposed solution offers a middle ground. It provides a window for our long-standing players to prepare for the next wave, while also allowing new players to engage in the experience.

worn nacelle
dense condor
worn nacelle
fossil carbon
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Not happy with the change in wave 2 pricing and now extension of wave 2 in order to line up with another speculative promo. Waves ought to have a specific begin and end date that can be counted on. Example, pokemon sets come out every 3 months (4 per year) with a special set around xmas time. I thought that was going to be the model Illuvitars would follow, or something reliably structured at least. With changes in d1sk prices, now set duration, what are future changes? reissuing wave 1? unbonding? I don't think it's wise to change the product to fit the promo client... clients ought to fit into the structure of the product. If anything, release wave three and coincide the promo with wave three.

dense condor
worn nacelle
# fossil carbon Not happy with the change in wave 2 pricing and now extension of wave 2 in order...

I hear you. Trust me, all I want is to standardise this product. I was vehemently against changing the pricing structure for Wave 2 without any data. I am the same with extending the wave, the issue we have is this promotion coincides with marketing of PvP, and when that got delayed this unfortunately moved with it. There is the option to move this promotion to Wave 3 but it would mean us having no promo partner for Wave 2 which changes the standard also, and also means the overall marketing campaign is disjointed. I totally accept your criticism though, and ultimately we need to adhere to the DAOs needs, but as head of marketing I truly believe this is the best way forward. Keeping in mind we will be doing everything in our power to standardise Illuvitars moving forward.

velvet scarab
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I think there is something to be said about the studio and the Beyond product both being in their infancy. With the example of the Pokemon TCG, they have an existing product and they are on their 10th sequel of the video game and Anime. Their development and marketing pipelines have existed for 20 years and allows them to avoid 'detours'. Unfortunately Illuvium is not there yet and needs time to cement its rhythm

keen terrace
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Funnily enough the pokemon tcg release cadence keeps forcing them to make crappy video games :/. Ultimately there should never be a time when there are not disks on sale, its just leaving money on the table. However it's clear that we are still bootstrapping this thing. For those worrying about the value of their illuvitars, well they are never going to gain real value unless we bring in the masses and give them a good experience. Also, until wave 2 reaches the sales of wave 1 I don't think rarity is such a big deal. Let them cook.

fossil carbon
# keen terrace Funnily enough the pokemon tcg release cadence keeps forcing them to make crappy...

It's easy to keep changing things to fix a current dilemma... but fix a thing here, down the line there are unforeseen issues that require more fixing. Next thing you know unreliability and distrust become the reputation. Boundaries and timelines require discipline and can mean losing out on things because they don't fit into the structure and that sux... but how to build trust when things keep changing? Say what you will about 'crappy'... people thrive on reliability and looking forward to the next thing. Whether it's crappy or not is subjective... but the thrill of anticipation, regularly, gets people excited and willing to check it out. Routine is good... then create magic within the structure.

Imo Illuvitars will gain real value when there's a tcg... but that's for another day.

fossil carbon
# worn nacelle I hear you. Trust me, all I want is to standardise this product. I was vehementl...

I hear you too... and seems like you are shooting for a compromise that will have the least negative impact and most benefit as a whole for the product and it's future.

A different compromise could be simply pausing wave 2... then opening it back up for 2-3 weeks and keeping the promo timing. That way people don't have to get sick of wave 2 just riding out for so long or feeling resentment... people could still have the opportunity to pick up more wave two who want them. Just an idea to circumvent the monotonous grind of a straight extension.

worn nacelle
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And I get the frustration from people who have spent a bunch on wave 2, and ideally want to keep the supply as low as possible. But I honestly think that adding more players will ultimately increase the amount of trading volume and therefore help the people who have already purchased. Not that it matters, but I have also spent a bunch on Wave 2, so It's not like I need to put myself in their shoes, I am one of those people, I just think this decision will ultimately be best for the DAO.

idle tiger
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Wave 2 has to have a promo... why? Just start up wave 3 and have the promo that is slated for pvp in wave 3. As a collector, I buy based on the information I receive. When dates get extended (like the wave 1 promo sale). It seems greedy and shady.

fossil carbon
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Well, if it is the best path forward for Beyond it's still not great, as there will be consequences from extending. Hope the partnership is fire. Looking forward to some kind of set structure eventually. Removed my downvote and will instead abstain.

untold kiln
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I know that this is probably whats best for the DAO but doesnt really help the few of us who bought thousands of d1sks i spent more on this wave with the mind set it would have the least interaction. Definitely would have bought much less if i knew this was on the table. Hope the partner is better so this can all be justified at the end

faint hamlet
# untold kiln I know that this is probably whats best for the DAO but doesnt really help the f...

You have every right to feel that way, I'd feel the same.

I can say with confidence that this partner, coupled with the campaign Kieran has planned, coupled with the fact that everything is coming together at once with PvP makes this leagues above GameStop.

Once the NDAs are removed (this isn't too far away) and the guys are able to share the announcements, I know I would be hating the fact we delayed things until 2024.

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Sorry I know I'm cheesy as fu#k, but it's true.

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With all that said, we do need to move quickly on this. Whichever way we go we need to get this scheduled asap or our indecision will have repercussions.

viscid mango
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I don’t understand the argument with extending the wave until after the promo sale. I wouldn’t expect people from web 2 gaming to jump aboard in Illuvitars until the eco system is up and running (Open beta).

faint hamlet
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The thinking is to run the 7-day promo mid December, and have wave 2 wrap up early Jan ensuring newcomers have had a chance to interact with Beyond through the Christmas period.

faint hamlet
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They're going through deep-dives with Aaron on Illuvium

viscid mango
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Aight. I’m super worried we will scare them off, but I trust you have the insight and intuition to steer the ship correctly.

faint hamlet
viscid mango
# faint hamlet Let's keep talking, so far the introductions to the IP have been extremely posit...

I think that’s a given. We have insane graphics. 💪

The issue I see is the average gamer already dislike NFT’s and see them as a cash grab and scams.
When we introduce them now, we have a free to play PvP experience (which is hopefully awesome, but no one knows before it has seen wider play and sentiment feedback).
Then we introduce PfP to them which cost 50$ for the best ‘loot box’ which contains 2 different pfp. There used to get an entire game or something like 3-4 months worth of gaming time for this amount.
That could get the crowd turned off, and in turn the streamers will turn their back to us quickly.

hot prawnBOT
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viscid mango
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Further, we have to communicate clearly that this free to play experience will be replaced by a pay to play experience where the set price is still unknown, and vary wildly in different conversations.

brisk sonnet
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What annoys me the most is that the talk of extending the wave came so shortly after wave 2 began, which makes me feel that it was a decision to keep that information from the beyond participants.
Having an extra rare + accessories in the packs and doing it while the wave is active of course sounds very good. But since we dont know about the partner its hard to voice if one think its a good ide or not. With some communities not being a prospect in terms of liquidity

Do we think that onboarding through Illuvium Beyond is a good ide? Since it is a quite expensive collection game, which i think most of us thinks caters to web3

faint hamlet
worn nacelle
open silo
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poor planning at the expense of existing w2 buyers

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Thumbs ups mostly people not into beyond or Team and council members 👍

formal coral
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I'm liking the idea of increasing the loot of Illuvitars (I forgot if it was available in the GameStop promo xD). Perhaps this is something that could be taken into consideration for the future pricing of waves. I feel like the pricing of the waves needs to be re-evaluated and needs to be cemented in for future waves. We can't keep changing them after a onboarding process; it could affect the future sales & reputation of a product IMO. I would suggest creating new price points before the partnership proceeds (if possible) and recommend changing the sizes of each disk available. Make the Megas more MEGA & enticing by giving players extra Illuvitar in-pack rewards compared to a standard (re-evalute also). This could help contribute to a higher $$ turnover rate for the DAO, while providing extra rewards to all players without appearing too "cash grabby." We can agree that people love good deals and free stuff—I know my customers do xD

Speaking of consistency, here's an idea... If we did end it, could we re-release Wave 1 and Wave 2 during the promotional sale period? I feel like this option would significantly strengthen the relationship with our partner, giving everyone one last chance to try their luck with Wave 1 disks (non-alphas only) working well with the BOGO promo offer🤷🏽‍♂️

viscid mango
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If it was, the DAO would fuck over all existing and prospective buyers simultaneously

formal coral
karmic lion
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Scoriox said it above but I think people should keep in mind that Beyond is a product in its infancy and is still finding the right release and wave length cadence. If we want Beyond to be one of the top of funnel products that brings in fresh people and introduces them to all of the wonderful things Illuvium has to offer, we should try to remain flexible in how we execute that with top tier partners. In this case the activation is especially impactful if paired with PvP release timing. Such is the reason for not wanting to just push it to wave 3.

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I understand the investor’s stance of being concerned about altering the wave length and how it impacts the resale value of units already purchased by diluting the supply, etc. This is something we took into account.

If we were extending the wave just to extend the wave, and the expectation was that our total users and new customer acquisition was to remain similar as it has been, it would be a more glaring issue for me. Keep in mind that the extension here is paired with strategic marketing activations built to onboard new customers. Dilution for existing members is less impactful when it’s balanced with new demand. Each new Beyond customer has a surprisingly high TVL. What they don’t get from minting d1sks, they go to the marketplace to buy from you. Also, anyone coming in through these activations has no choice but to buy Wave 1 off the marketplace.

No, it is not perfect, but we are still finding our footing for this product. I believe this is the right decision for the DAO and for user acquisition, and pre-existing users will benefit from the fresh demand from that user acquisition

short barn
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I think Beyond hasn't been a great success so far. So I don't see a problem in experimenting and trying different stuff to grow the product and see what works out and what doesn't. Is it ideal? No. But it's better to find out what works and what doesn't as early as possible.

dense condor
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People actually made financial / purchasing decisions based on sale parameters that are now changing. No amount of arguments makes this right imo.
I've seen before in other projects controversial decisions that go against the existing customer base (and I am alluding here to Beyond customers, not all ILV holders) being pushed under the argument that the pie will get bigger for everyone and it massively backfired every single time. I sincerely hope this does not happen here...
I get it, as far as the DAO is concerned, it might look like it's only upside because wave 2 disks are sold for longer and we can better profit from the partnership. But what this vote would not necessarily show is the % of the core Beyond buyers that are not ok with this and I hope this doesn't end up having a negative impact on this product in the longer term.

open silo
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Then release w3 earlier disable the w3 album until open beta so that people dont have to buy it now, since that is your only argument against that idea. W3 release with promo disks or ealier

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And duration 6 months or so communicated since the beginning. And all sides are happy

idle tiger
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Wave 1 alphas we extended the sale. Gamestop promo sale we extended the sale. The sales of the disks after the extension were minimal. What will make this time different? All it does is piss off the core beyond community who purchase based on the parameters given.

open silo
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maybe an error in the governance system. these things will happen again

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I understand that the council should vote in the best interests of the DAO, but luring existing buyers with false promises who have only purchased under these conditions is simply the wrong decision. Fuck up wave 1 buyers after decreasing the disk value, fucking up wave 2 players with that extension. Why would it stop here? DAO will always stand above the buyers.

stark marsh
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It's hard when we are asked to vote on things but can't have all the info because of NDAs. That said, based on basic business sense, I think this decision is a wrong one. I think Wave 3 should be started rather than Wave 2 extended. Part of the DAO's integrity is following through on what they have said they will do. We have a website going that shows the number of days left in the sale, 22. A big deal has been made about the limited time these D1sks are available. People have been buying based on that information. You are throwing that all away chasing new customers. The problem is, how are your existing customers supposed to trust what you say in the future?

"We have to do what is good for the DAO" is true. However, what is good for the DAO is keeping existing, loyal customers happy while bringing in new ones. I am looking at the thumbs down people and those people have been very loyal customers. I would hate to see us going in a direction that alienates them.

I don't know who this partner is. I am just hoping they are worth the risk.

open silo
stark marsh
karmic lion
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It seems like the majority of the reason against this is that it negatively impacts the financial ROI for wave 2 buyers. I don't think that's true. Can someone explain why increased demand on increased supply is a net negative to buyers?

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or am i misunderstanding the concern?

stark marsh
open silo
open silo
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Rank 2 Beyond Collector

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leaden fjord
dense condor
# karmic lion It seems like the majority of the reason against this is that it negatively impa...

Disagree. The main reason is us buying into something that ends up being altered / different from what was initially advertised.
There are perceived financial implications but it's also about trust and reliability.

Now I still want to address your question about the supply / demand impact and I'll use a made up scenario. Assume you have a holo Ophisto that is currently a 1 out of 2 in existence. Maybe by the initially planned end date of wave 2, it's a 1 out of 3. And what if post extension it ends being a 1 out of 7 (increased supply because of skew in outcomes vs probabilities or increased rythm of disk purchases)...how would you feel about the rarity and price of that illuvitar? What if you bought it off secondary before this proposal came out based on your prediction of rarity by the end of the initial wave 2 timeline?

Also, I'll just add that assuming an increase in demand in secondary market is very speculative (more so than increase in supply from selling disks for a longer period). I don't think we've seen a significant demand uptick during the first promo and we don't know how the market will look like by end of extended wave 2. Plus, very difficult to tell how much demand from existing base this decision could kill vs. what's generated by new customers...

That's not to say the promo will not work or be successful (ofc we all hope for it to be a big success) but the risk associated to extending feels higher

karmic lion
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It's definitely hard to quantify the impact of the promo sale when we can't tell you guys how big of a partner we're talking about here. I understand your frustration and wish we could quantify more with numbers and exposure projections.

faint hamlet
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Good morning team!

For those strongly apposed to this ICCP, please try to attend this Town Hall.

Whichever way we ultimately go, I need a decision asap so we can schedule the efforts.

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We're busier than ever right now.

karmic lion
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I honestly thought the extension plan would be preferred to running another Wave before public beta rollouts. But if that is not the case, definitely helps to hear those opinions

potent venture
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So why not something like this: End Wave 2 as intended, start Wave 3 shortly after [say 2-4 weeks after] so it can coincide with the timeline needed by the promo partner. With the start of the new wave announce that Wave 3 will be a longer than normal sale of say 5-6 months.

This allows the Bogo and Promo communities to participate fully in a new Wave, the current community knows exactly what they're buying into and maintains the integrity of what was promised for Wave 2 timeline. Also with an extension to wave 3 it can bleed into the start of Open Beta while also giving the current community time to save funds but ultimatly still participate in Wave 3.

open silo
karmic lion
brisk sonnet
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I cant attend, but since we are still in a construction phase, i'd like the team to call these kind of shots, more or less.
But if it was known that that we would most likely extend this wave, prior to the wave started, i would like to hear the truth about that, if that information was withheld knowingly.

faint hamlet
karmic lion
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Thank you all

coarse dragon
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I personally would like the promotion to go for longer than a week this would give this massive player base you are going after time to figure out how to use crypto if they don't use it and put some funds together to get into the ecosystem! Also having wave 2 and the promotion ending at the same time would create incentive for the new players to also buy into standard and mega wave 2 disks!

open silo
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Thank you for the town hall and your information and opinions. Pausing w2 or delay the promo is not an option as you stated how important the promo partner is, and im with you on this. So for me its either w2 extension which is the take the council and the team would like to go or w3 early release. w3 early release you said is firstly not your take because of the sentiment you got from the community that the community dont want any more sales, new nfts before the game is out and some technical and artistic taks that should be done to implement an early w3 release. Another point was that customers getting promo disks with promo w2 illuvitars and another rare w3 illuvitar would confuse people and is diffuculty to market. I think we should go with the community decision in that, when the community wants a new wave why deny it? If they dont want it, extend wave 2. From your insights missing the Promo is way worse than the wave 2 extension for w2 buyers.

faint hamlet
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Yep, it can't be overstated just how important this partner is.

We need everyone involved to ensure it goes off perfectly, we're positioning ourselves on the world stage next to the likes of League, Dota 2, TFT and much more.

bleak gale
formal coral
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Just listened and have to agree that it would be best to continue rather than stopping and starting.
Considering the circumstances that have been explained.. feeling it would be best to just continue with sale, help with the continuation of growth whilst not putting complete pressure on the team, having to fine tune wave 3 collection & focusing on overworld.

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gotta love a dao.. its always changes depending on community sentiment xD

bleak bridge
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just listened to the town hall recording. if the partner is a big as alluded, I think it will be worth it to extend

my only question is has any thought been given on how to convert the bonus rare-non promo wave 2 NFT into a buyer of old wave 2s. To me, simply including a rare-non promo wave 2 NFT is not obvious enough to tell a newcomer that this a different type of NFT that they can collect. They might not even notice the lack of the promo theme!

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I'm also sceptical whether the partner is really bigger than Gamestop. Gamestop has 1.8M followers, whereas Cloud 9 only has 1.2M. It would have to be bigger than Cloud 9

faint hamlet