Vote of No Confidence for Vetemor

[untold isle]

He didn't even now the basics of the proposal he was arguing against.

He behavior is distressful to the community bc as a sitting member of the counsel, it hard to know how serious we need to take his outbursts of wanting to 'save us'.

The communities time and attention is more valuable than this would suggest.

It's also a distraction to the team, to have to deal with this level of uncoherent action.

[final nest]

get a life u nasty horrible troll

[final nest]

multiple people have DMd me to remove this comment,

I will not because its true,

he's been trolling me all day long, been incredibly rude without being provoked, whilst I've answered every question he had. I even DMd him and offered to jump on a voicecall with him to hash out disagreement as we both had different opinions in a debate. he continues to bellittle and call me names and troll me. Others also told him to stop trolling...

I've blocked him now so that I no longer have to see his messages again, if he wants to make his case to get me removed thats his prerogative...

I've received a warning from a mod for a "personal attack" 🤣

mods only step in when its someone they dont like these days, great times

even when this person has made countless personal attacks on me

calling someone a nasty horrible troll when they have been nasty and horrible and trolled you continuesly isnt a personal attack, its standing up for yourself

https://tenor.com/view/mic-drop-zinger-zing-gif-21126731

[mint trail]

You can also stand up for yourself without insulting people, as a council member you should set an example.
Quite disappointed in your reaction to this message

[hardy moth]

I thought ZZ had some good points, which to me, was not really answered.
The trolling only really happened towards the end.

Agree with fraggy, you can defend yourself.

[runic lake]

I'd just say, from my experience Vet works really hard for the Strategy Sub Council.. yes he shares what are sometimes polarizing views but he's always coming from a position of wanting the best for the project.

We can do without the drama in general (not from him specifically), but forcing team to defend critical decisions in a public forum should only strengthen our resolve and confidence if that decision passes criticism & scrutiny.

[hardy moth]

Agrees so close to launch is not a good time to do this.
I also see value in some of the ideas Vet has.

[worthy ember]

That's 4 times I've read this now. Still can't keep a straight face.

[night stag]

I don’t have anything against Vet personally, I think this is a good test of Gov V2 processes will see how this plays out and we likely need to end up changing the process. Spoke to him in dms about my reasonings for voting yes.

[runic lake]

The whitepaper reflects what we had originally planned to implement, i.e. an AMM.

Since that time Aaron, Johnny have discussed the possibility of an Order Book Model to replace the AMM. (Aaron is putting forward an ICCP for this change to the whitepaper).

[mint trail]

Maybe share them in public?

[night stag]

Eh I’m not trying to influence anyone, everyone free to make their own decisions, DAO

[mint trail]

I would like to hear why the community manager is voting yes. With this role you must know a lot more than me so would be nice to know why you vote to have somebody removed that represents the DAO

[night stag]

I’ll refrain

[worn zinc]

I also think Vet's idea is an honest attemp at improving what we have. People might disagree with it and it's totally fine, that's why there's voting. I'm not supporting a vote of no confidence based on someone not liking an idea.

[night stag]

Yeah I guess I should be clear my vote isn’t based on this exact reasoning presented.

Like I said I think this process is going to develop more after this

Not that community has to give reasoning its up to Vet to defend his position on why he doesn’t need a VONC which I think was either his first or second message and then the community to decide how they feel

[mint trail]

[night stag]

Then council

[worthy ember]

I would expect any team member that endorses a vote of no confidence publicly to explain why. Not doing so only breeds speculation around what you know that we don't.

[night stag]

I'm not allowed to have personal opinions?

I was an investor/dao member/ holder/ staker long before I was a team member

And on council

a few times

I'll bite though because he tweeted again about it

Saying that "Investors don't matter" got me. For a multitude of reasons

[cerulean bolt]

Someone help me out with the screenshot here. I'm seeing mixed messages in different chats on if fuel can actually be resold once a player purchases it. Can they sell it as long as they first move it to L1?

[worthy ember]

Thank you, I appreciate you sharing your reasoning

[vague yacht]

To me it feels like council suits the analogy of a high school classroom of wannabe teacher pets gone wild. Lots of bickering, yet a clear lack of peer communication (or perhaps way too much of it). Lots of flaunted potential, not knowing most of it comes from the IP itself. Lots of feeling intelligent whilst in reality having to settle for smart and thus coming across as…well, something else. Guess they should have been paying more attention while teacher (probably someone with a biblical name) read them Ovid.

But I don’t think Vetemor is alone in that regard, nor do I feel like he ‘transgressed’ the most.

He probably wanted to put his proposal up first. Which is arguably fine (although I feel it would have been more correct to just post all four of them (semi) at once) but imo kind of backfired.

He introduced me to this project through Youtube years ago and his commodity comment made me laugh harder than I should have. So that’s something to consider.

[opal mica]

Really @night stag ?!

Is that really the game you wanna play?

[final nest]

For full context this is something I’ve actually said multiple times largely to make a point that, although investors are obviously important in a project, pleasing investors in the short term is not!

Investors benefit Long-Term from us working to provide them with maximum revenue Long-Term.

Heres the full screenshot lol: https://twitter.com/nijafe_plays/status/1688913186505072640?s=46&t=ELcJz3PQaQqF4_-QGm17kQ

Nijafe_Plays ♊️ YT (@Nijafe_Plays)

This should give more context to the fuel debate that is currently underway in the discord.
See comment for link to video.

Twitter · Aug 8, 2023, 2:00 PM

What im saying is about the priorities we need to have as members of the DAO

Council Members specifically have the job to maximise revenue for the DAO long-term, and its exactly what my point is saying

I’d be surprised if anyone actually reading what I said there with the intention to understand what i mean would actually think im saying anything weird

Anyone reading to find reasons to object or vilify will also find what they are looking for

Depends what ur searching for

[random coral]

Shouldn't this be moved to a different place because #1126838877429182506 is only for IIP/ICCPs that are written following the correct structure?

[mint trail]

I believe it's here because only token holders can vote on council

[random coral]

It was stated clearly in the one of the Town Halls that #1126838877429182506 is only for ideas that have the structure that is explained in #📌〕governance-info

Proposals are concrete, well-defined changes or improvements that someone would like to see made. Proposals can be posted in ⁠💡〕governance-ideas, and will be the main topic of this explanation. Proposals come in two types - Illuvium Improvement Proposals (IIP) and Illuvium Configuration Change Proposals (ICCP). IIPs introduce new systems or ideas. ICCPs change existing systems or proposals.
*It’s important for Proposals to follow a formal structure, to clearly communicate the intended purpose and implementation of the proposal. *

This is not a proposal. This is merely a suggestion.

Also, I think it was not shared with the public what's the best way to initiate a Vote of No Confidence if anyone wants to do it. And therefore we have a bit of confusion.

But in the end, I believe this is not the place for it unless it's a real proposal. We should not encourage everyone to post their ideas here.

[uncut birch]

Yes thinking the same. Good point.

[boreal linden]

Who do you mean by “us”, council members? Why should you and not the actual ILV team run the show?

Of course investors matter, there would be no game to play without them in the first place.

[opal mica]

I've got a question to everyone in here upvoting this... what is actually really the argumentary and criteria that you guys have? just because he made a proposal you guys don't like?

Marketing's sub council proposal was an OBJECTIVE shit one and no such action happened... so what is REALLY the reasoning of you all? i'm really curious

[untold isle]

Good intentions is not enough qualification to be in the council and they should have a firm grasp on the technology and basic implications.

Especially, when driving with for a brand new novel mechanic without even reading or understanding the current proposal which has been a know idea/plan for years.

He is clearly lacking a basic abilities and knowledge needed.

Him and is ‘crew’ make engaging with Gov unbearable. I have stopped bothering for months and just look to see what is going on and see a proposal that is completely ridiculous. From a design perspective is a nightmare, it doesn’t take in basic considerations around user experience like the ability to sell tokens.

I have cycles more experience and a depth of understanding of the crypto tech stack and implications of how the system works.

I don’t care if ppl think I’m bragging or whatever. Why on earth would I continue to bother when I have to deal with someone who is completely unwilling to learn and not educated on basics.

[opal mica]

this message coming from you is just laughable though... perhaps you just lack the knowledge and abilities to understand how wrong you are. I don't blame you

[untold isle]

See they are a army. I don’t even know how this is lmao.

I don’t want to engage in this further. It’s a completely waste of time for me to offer any thoughts to the community while our level of standard for council members is this low.

They just want to fight and ‘be right’

I am so much better than them so it’s easy to stoop to there level with the name calling, but I said I won’t any more.

As you can see it’s all they have.

[opal mica]

in fact your thoughts are not welcome in my very own opinion, still yet to read a constructive message from you.

and you engaged in pretty much every single proposal/idea i've posted so that's why i say this.

[untold isle]

Explain how a multi token order book system might and addition rev streams to the dao?

I’ll give you 2 minutes.

[opal mica]

and your "argument" of they are an "army" it's just normal... that's what happens when a nobody attacks a respected person. if I had made a similar post to like fire Aaron, i would have an entire army calling me names and telling me i'm full of shit. And you probably would even be one of them.

So what did you expect? seriously...

[opal mica]

Is it MY job to explain someone else's proposal?

[final nest]

And no I don't think anyone would make a vote of confidence over a bad proposal... You can read the initial message here to see the reasoning, it had nothing to do with Vetemors proposal

[sinful gate]

Everyone please stop. Take this to DM's if required.

This is unecessary to do publicly.

[opal mica]

yeah and you all failed to get community support because the community didn't agree, and myself as a professional neither. That's perfectly fine that just shows the system we have in place works, if an idea is bad or need rework, it just doesn't get through. Nobody blamed you all for that miss. not even me.
Hence my question... Why this one ?

[untold isle]

For the record, it would not be for a bad proposal. That would be fine. It’s for all his actions and continued actions.

[opal mica]

And what actions are we talking about? Him saying that he prioritizes long term profitability over "investors" quick flip possibility?

Because he prioritizes gamers over vultures trying to find the right time to exit the project after they lost money since 2021?

which actions we talking about?

[untold isle]

.

[opal mica]

fair and deserved

[uncut birch]

Ok stop it. Now! Everyone.

[hardy moth]

Money may be the priority of some. Yet we probably all fall into groups. Like maybe both.

It might just be the blanket statements. People will only remember that not the details.

To me everyone is important.

I get your reasoning about long term benefits yet we still need to listen to investors.

If you used the phrasing ' I see the benefits to investors over a long term period' 'what I'm aiming for is the short term uptake of players, in a way I think is best for game and trickle on to investors'?

You have made you statement and not alienated anyone with a comment that was always going to cause a reaction.

Unless that's what you wanted.

Also you can't assume people get your intentions.

[final nest]

I’m not here to politic and pander

I have a style of speach, and people very aware of my style have elected me to do this job

Not going to change my style to please everyone, its not possible and its not a responsibility of my job

Obviously everything is important, if that isn’t self evident then idk what is

But you can boil it all down to maximising revenue for investors and the DAO long term as the primary goal of council members (and if it isn’t a vote of no confidence should be brought up against them)

[hardy moth]

You can do that if you want.
Not saying otherwise. Merely stating there are more effective ways to communicate so you are not misconstrued.

[hardy moth]

So effective communication isn't part of your job in council?

[untold isle]

https://tenor.com/view/tony-stark-eyeglass-exellent-question-gif-12818139

[hardy moth]

Anyway. I'm not voting.
Yet I so see reasons why people would.

[final nest]

I said im not here to politic and pander

Pandering is the opposite of effective communication lol

[hardy moth]

I was under the impression clear and effective communication is a requirement of the team.

[untold isle]

ask him to break down the pros and cons for the most recent proposals and see if you get an answer worthy of someone on the council.

[hardy moth]

Communicating so everyone can understand you isn't pandering.

It's clearly stating something so your words can't get twisted.

Or be turned into something you didn't mean.

[untold isle]

It's so abundantly clear, his has zero interest in feedback or respect for community members.

[final nest]

I mean everything I’ve said in the last 24hrs someone has find a way to twist

[hardy moth]

I'm going to wait until tomorrow.

[final nest]

Something can always be turned if they so wish

[hardy moth]

Not if you are super clear.
I read it and thought, oh that's how he thinks.
Then you say you are for the whole DAO. It can be confusing for people.
It's not the responsibility of the reader to question and clarify what a council member means by an arbitrary statement like you posted.
Not everyone would know your history or what your main goal is.
We can only go off face value.
I don't want to argue with you about it. Do as you wish.

Yet I am curious. I thought council members had a duty to communicate in a certain way?

[final nest]

For instance when I say “im not here to pander” and “pandering is the opposite of communication”

I am saying that pandering is the opposite of communication and im not pandering therefore I believe im communicating effectively most of the time tbh

You then respond with “i thought it was required that u can communicate” as if I had just said “communication isnt important” which is the opposite of what i said

Anything can be twisted lol

As things I said clearly communicated got continually taken out of context or twisted by zz cap yesterday, did I by the end get worse at communicating as we approach 2am? Arguably lol

But we human still, and things happen

[hardy moth]

That was a total twist of what I said.

I mean the post that was shared up above by you.
The opening statements can be misconstrued.

[final nest]

I didnt post it arbitrarily, it was in context, but sure

And if anyone thinks im saying anything crazy or innapropriate they can say so, whether in my DMs or publicly, or a fellow council member can take a screenshot and post in on twitter and hope that others take it out of context too 🤷‍♀️

[final nest]

See not so hard to twist ANYTHING is it lol

[final nest]

Sure…

Read Kierans Tweets, most of them can be misconstrued

[untold isle]

I honestly can't understant what he is even trying to say right now.

[hardy moth]

That was twisted that you felt you had to do that to me.
Like I'm 5 or something.
Im out.

[final nest]

I’m not going to speak perfectly all the time lol

[final nest]

Trying to literally show an example of how anything can be twisted and now ur out…

Lol

🤷‍♀️

[hardy moth]

Neither am I.
Yet you have the weight of a council member.
Also you haven't answered my question about the teams expectations on communication.

[final nest]

What about it?

[opal mica]

Useless discussion... and original post. Questioning the seemingly "good intents" of the original poster. i'm done with this and confident on the fact it won't have the necessary traction to remove a trusted and hard worker council member just on the basis of a couple toxic people.

[mint trail]

Can we stop insulting people?

[hardy moth]

Because you are playing mind games.

My post was about the possible reasons you get the reactions you do. My main field of study has been communicating, within various fields.
I know how things can get twisted, which is why I Said anything in the first place.

If something is clear it can be twisted still. Yet it's easy to see the twist when looked at.

[hardy moth]

You didn't answer it.

You have just brought up Kieran's tweeting style and insinuated that it's not ideal.
This implies that you hold the team to a higher standard of effective communication,

Please explain why you hold them to this standard but do not believe this standard holds true for council members?

[final nest]

Im trying to defend myself

Because zz cap spent the last 24hrs trolling me and abusing me because he disagreed with a proposal that I made

Which lead to him even raising a vote of no confidence against me

Which now has 16 upvotes because others i guess also didnt like the proposal lol

Its really disappointing when you believe in our system of governance and care about this project and have worked hard to improve it and this is how you’re met

Can my communications be clearer sometimes? Sure, but anyones could be…

Do I step on peoples toes because I’m willing to disagree, sure…

But the fact its come to this is kinda mad to me tbh

[opal mica]

yeah i guess the difference between calling out for bad behaviours and insulting is pretty thin nowadays. You're right

[final nest]

Im not holding anyone to a higher standard

Thanks for continuing to twist things

I did not insinuate even that Kierans tweeting style isnt ideal, you decided to go that way, just saying that even our CEOs words, however perfect, can still be misconstrued… generally…

Please stop putting words in my mouth

[hardy moth]

To be honest I wasn't' going to vote yet for me it's got nothing to do with the proposal, yet how you respond to me.
I wasn't attacking you.

I read the whole conversation and I think zz has more reasons.

[final nest]

Lol

[untold isle]

It's impossible to talk to him.

You just get to the point where, you have to say the truth about his scope of knowledge and he says thats a personal attack.

He is not a professional.

[hardy moth]

Its for new people vet. Seriously.
Imagine you drop into somewhere new and council members are talking like you.
Would you get it?

[untold isle]

someone make this make sense

[opal mica]

i'm still looking for any sense in your own argumentary... you pretend someone else has limited knowledge when you're the only one who looks irrelevant everytime i read you in proposals chats... how do you do that?

[pliant saffron]

Love me some popcorn

[untold isle]

lmao

[final nest]

I’ve spoke how i’ve spoke in chats that only token holders can participate in

Im also not PR trained (neither is the majority of council or team members)

[rocky venture]

Already being discussed in CSC - we are looking into improvements to GOV V2 and this needs some clarity for sure

[untold isle]

What needs to happen to move this forward?

[random coral]

@ionic hornet was involved into writing the Gov V2, so I tagged him as well, but...

1. If ILV holder or stakers wants to initiate a Vote of no confidence, where and how should he do it?
2. If ILV holder or stakers wants to initiate a Vote of no confidence, he may or may not present any evidence on why is he doing that?
3. We only need 50 Discord votes (thumbs up) to Initiation of vote?

I think this is not really clear, expecially the 1).

[rocky venture]

Alright here we go!!

@random coral I brought this up yesterday in CSC as this falls into an unplanned gray zone under the intention of this idea 💡

We will be leaving this now for transparency, but we are going to clarify the process for the future.

A VONC is not an IIP or ICCP, but does fall into governance related and in my personal opinion should be housed here vs. #1020759212172775464

[opal mica]

And what happens if 50 Discord active community members that hold 1ILV each want someone out while 500 people with an average voting power of 10vILV but who don't spend time on discord so they dont upvote or upvote this kind of thread actually wanted that person in?

[random coral]

There is another vote on Snapshot where every holder can vote with his vILV

[hardy moth]

That's an issue that can be easily solved.
I'm voting yes.
Because I'f you can treat me the way you did. Then I see you being a risk to new people.

I hope you don't get voted out. Yet communication is a massive thing for me in illuvium.
I have to take a stand somewhere and not pander to people's sensitivities or the effect it has in them.
I can appreciate it's been a stressful day and this is probably an awful position to be in.
Yet it's something I take seriously.

[random coral]

But in what form should it be is my main question even if this is the right place?

[rocky venture]

To proceed to the vote, this is outline in GOV V2.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d126iyv-c_NGwWsrb2Bb4Sbkkjxu3q31LRyqhN09rnI/edit#bookmark=id.xs8hpk566hzd

This link takes you to the section.

TL:DR version:

1. Share Evidence and post (Done ✅ )
2. Defense (Done and continuing ✅ )
3. Initiate of vote = **50 👍🏻 ** - no time frame is indicated in Gov V2
4. Voting period of 1 week where the community votes with vILV (majority required to pass, otherwise no outcome)
5. Outcome shared publically

[hardy moth]

Njafe also shouldn't have posted a tweet that was technically confidential, I may be wrong there.

[mint trail]

Deleted maybe this is not the place for jokes 😄

[rocky venture]

I brought up if we want to have a formal process created where a form/structure needs to be followed

Will return when this has been discussed and determined further. A well structured process should be followed IMO

[rocky venture]

The vote goes to vILV and the word will be spread widely to ensure everyone can vote with vILV when and IF the time comes

[random coral]

downvotes are useless apart from showing support in this case and i think in every case for Ideas

[river tree]

What was confidential? This interaction was within this proposal thread

[hardy moth]

Okay so I'm wrong.
Wasn't it taken from ILV holder chat?

[sweet idol]

What percentage is needed for vILV voting for it to pass?

[rocky venture]

Just saw this message - these are the same questions I brought up in CSC

We are actively working to improve the GOV V2 process and similar to the initial implementation, some things could not be planned 100% - first epoch under gov v2 will have new changes implemented 🙂

[hardy moth]

Can we post anything we want from there. That might need looking at.
Still a level of effective communication should be happening everywhere.

[rocky venture]

vILV will need to be majority for it to pass and have the VONC formalized

50 upvotes here is to start the process to get it put to a vILV vote

[river tree]

I don’t think that makes it confidential. I believe it’s just so only ILV holders are able to participate. Maybe I’m interpreting that wrong.

[rocky venture]

Anyone has access to see those channels - that is the design

You can sit in the viewing room and here and see everything. But to participate, you need to be a holder (of course this is a simplified view)

[sweet idol]

System seems a bit off to me - say for example vet got 30% of the vILV votes to get a council seat, even though he represents 30% of the community he could still easily get kicked out with a vote of no confidence cause the other 70% doesn't like him (as they could cross the 50% vILV threshold). I feel a vote of no confidence would have to do a full re-election of that sub council to be fair.

[untold isle]

So guessing there is no option for trial by combat? Vet and I could duke it out in PVP?

this is mostly a joke

[mint trail]

I believe if he would get voted off, the next person that had the most votes would take his place

[rocky venture]

Nope you're good any one can view the channel it is essentially public.

Obviously if confidential information was posted there, the issue comes from the person that originally posted it being wrong

[fiery arrow]

The requirement is votes by verified ilv holders and seeing as governance ideas is gated by holding ilv this seems to be the perfect place to hold a VoNC idea/proposal/complaint.

I also agree that the process needs to be reworked. The basis should be clear and should have merit.

[untold isle]

I believe that is Josh eth btw

[rocky venture]

Correct - this is another correction we will be making to Gov v2.

5th or 6th person would take the seat. If not then re-election process if greater than 2months prior to end of epoch.

The issue - for CSC we would be 6th and 7th if someone gets VONC'd, so the verbiage might be updates to 1st and 2nd runner-up, then a special election process (all to be confirmed later in an ICCP to make updates, no for now)

[random coral]

But basically, if we like someone who is next in the line more than we like somebody that is currently under Vote of No Confidence, we could just upvote and vote for somebody we like more. No evidence no anything? Right?

[sweet idol]

Good to know, i don't think this stops the issue of the majority being able to easily vote out any council member even if that member represents more than enough share of the community

[untold isle]

So one way to think about this is we are adding Josh to the council. Which honestly is something that should have happened already.

[fiery arrow]

I understand where this is coming from and this should have been addressed by the basis and merit of the allegations for VoNC.

[sweet idol]

Hypothetically Vet could have 40% community suppport/council votes and still get voted out after. Bit dangerous to me as you'd want someone with that amount of support on the council

[sweet idol]

Thanks! Just an idea in my head about the system in place, not so much about the current drama haha

[rocky venture]

Evidence is required and falls into the requirements... but yes essentially someone could do that if that wanted, but will look bad on all 50 people that upvote without reasons shared or evidence why it is required

Also, I personally think VONC for someone to get someone else in is a bit shady... but that is where democracy comes in, if majority vote it, then that is what majority want.

[opal mica]

ooooohhhh so this is where it comes from!!! finally!!

[unique raven]

As long as the person is loyal to the whole team, my 2cp.

[final nest]

it was public

[untold isle]

for the record - I just found that out

[random coral]

It says 'may post'. How is that required?

[rocky venture]

This should not be a reason why someone should upvote this.
This also falls into personal opinions - not a valid reason to VONC

[untold isle]

that's fair

[rocky venture]

Perhaps this references the later examples - but good point this is a little "too vague"

[mint trail]

If you like to change the process, could you post it in #1020759212172775464 and keep this channel for what it's for?

[final nest]

to be clear no evidence has actually been shared of me actually violating the illuvium code of ethics to my knowledge or not meeting the minimum requirements of being a council member

everything so far is heresay and personal opinion and not grounds for a VONC

[fiery arrow]

I think it's also wrong that just cause you get majority or being the 1st or 2nd highest voted member makes you immune from this process. This process would be reflective of how the council member is performing his or her duties. It's an accountability mechanism.

But again, the process should be more threshed out.

[untold isle]

that you agree with. I believe everyone here thinks council members should have a basic understanding of the proposals they are working to defeat.

[random coral]

To be fair the Gov V2 says that: "meeting the community’s expectations"

Not sure what can be evidence to that, but that's one part of the VONC.

[untold isle]

exactly

[random coral]

With how it currently works, I can ask Garf something (just an example), and if he doesn't answer me right away, that can be a reason and evidence of VONC.

Basically....

[rocky venture]

@plucky glen you're next, sorry 😞

[rocky venture]

But yes, this is why the process needs to be reviewed a bit further to avoid personal differences or opinion or subjective rationales...

Although, i have noticed additional reasoning shared above I this thread.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions...

[final nest]

I already clearly stated in our conversation that Aaron had previously shared 2 different proposals with us and explained his entire proposal with us in a meeting.

when we presented our proposals publicly, Aaron actually re-wrote his proposal a 3rd time and I didnt check it because he never informed us that he was re-writing it, I assumed it was the most recent shared with us

there was 1 main detail that was different in that players could both buy and sell Fuel (whereas before at least in what was shared in our meeting was that players could buy but could not sell fuel, only land owners could sell fuel that they produce)

this is a misunderstanding that can easily happen, if there is no empathy for that and after answering all of your questions all day long even when others told you off for being rude and a troll on different occasions you then proceed to start a VONC against me on no grounds whatsoever because we disagree on a proposal and you think all council members should agree with you

our council is stronger for having diverse views and if we all agreed with one another proposals would be weaker, they are more strongly formed in the fires of debate and through that pressure we get diamonds!

If I am voted off for doing my best for the DAO and putting my neck on the line to stand up for ideas that may not be popular then I'll lay down the mantle and have to go and provide value elsewhere that it is appreciated

[untold isle]

Both of these statements can't be true Vetemor #1138413251277901895 message

I'm not sure what's going on, but you can't keep saying two different things.

It's also your job. There are no excuses.

[untold isle]

@hot path is this true at all? Or has the plan always been that anyone could sell fuel.

[opal mica]

Im pretty sure that the previous versions of that proposal still exist somewhere, either the docs themselves or record of it in council chats/meetings... How could the DAO ask for an NDA exception to make these public if that allows to clear cut evidence in such a debate?

@fiery arrow sorry i tag you since you're the legal expert

[untold isle]

You're proposal also lacks any solutions for ppl not being able to sell, what would happen to the UX is a random pools where set up (which would happen), the long-term technical implications of hard coding a key aspect of the economy into a smart contract, and how the pricing would be determined moving forward.

[opal mica]

Did i misread his proposal? i'm pretty sure in Vetemor's proposal, players can sell back fuel to the DAO if they want to...

[untold isle]

I can go on - the economic risk of having a fixed priced commodity. There is tons of literature on why that is not a good idea.

[untold isle]

no he said they would not be able to and it's not documented in the proposal through any mechanism.

[fiery arrow]

I dont think you need to show the records but just validating it from the members that were present would be enough considering these documents and its contents are under NDA.

[untold isle]

#1138413251277901895 message

[opal mica]

and 50423085 study cases of games who made and keep making truckloads of revenue using that model... but again here we're discussing the proposal itself, rather than the ABILITY of vetemor to do his job as a council member which is what should be discussed in this thread

[final nest]

ser thats your opinion which you stated countless times in response to my proposal, is this a reason for VONC?

because you disagree with my proposal?

what is the world coming to

[sweet idol]

Indeed, if you disagree with a proposal you use the thumbs down button, not a vote of no confidence

[shrewd crag]

We making vote of no confidence for any creator of controversial proposals now ?

😵‍💫

[opal mica]

damn i missed so many opportunities already...

[untold isle]

No because by your own emission - You are not doing your job and up today with the proposals at a basic level but also you're refusal to see flaws in your proposal and address them.

[opal mica]

Do you not see the flaws in your own argumentary when you say that?

[worthy ember]

Show me your wallet! I need to know if you're qualified to ask such questions 😆

[final nest]

so looking back over them, must have just been during the meeting that @hot path said there would be no selling of Fuel and I guess I assumed that hadn't changed when skimming over his proposals

for sure my bad

certainly not grounds for VONC but hey ho, lets see what happens

[shrewd crag]

Can you make a proposal please, I know you’re not on the council but I want to vote you out of anything your in

And if you answer « your mother » we are not friend anymore, na!

[final nest]

and I still showed it to him, cos its public info, I did everything to answer this guy who was being insanely rude and bellittling and insulting my character (which he also received a warning from mods for) and he's now able to just VONC lol

this is perhaps the most bizarre thing i've ever seen in this community

[rocky venture]

Not every council member knows the ins and outs of every single proposals - anyone could have submitted a fuel proposal and still can...

[final nest]

yup

[untold isle]

Do you still think your proposal has mert?

If so please respond to these concerns #1138647120635760672 message

Why are you continuing to attack me personally?

I and others find it very difficult to have a normal profession conversation with you and your 'friends'

[rocky venture]

I think both still have merit- it is quite divisive. But it does not mean that one is wrong and one is right - there can be aspects of both that would be amazing if they could be combined somehow
(Full transparency I am still reading through the massive thread)

[untold isle]

His proposal is a ethos violation, technical nightmare, adds complexity to the ux, and governance grab that gives more power to the council.

The power of pricing should be left up to the players, which we collectively determine in a competitive environment with safety measures.

[uncut birch]

guys please stay respectful.

[final nest]

cant disagree there ser, its being discussed in council now, I have given my recommendation that the VONC system is not altered until this situation is resolves (as changing it right now is not a good look lol) but it defo needs improving as its so far just been written in without yet being utilised...

[opal mica]

i mean you @untold isle keep posting messages like this... and expect polite and nice answers? yeah maybe one time... but after how many can we just judge that calling you a nasty horrible troll is just fair and deserved?

[hardy moth]

Thanks. Someone told me. I still think it was poor form. Yet it's allowed.

[untold isle]

That's a objectively true statement.

You don't know the basics and are convinced you going to save us, and you won't even address the primary points, right here right now.

#1138647120635760672 message

[opal mica]

wauww.... you're really convinced you're right... I can't believe it...

[untold isle]

Again, it's impossible to stay on topic. I'm not going to engage in that conversation line here. If you wanna yell at me please do that in a different channel.

[shrewd crag]

Wait, is this another thread to talk about proposals ? Or are we suppose to release dirt on @final nest , tell me I’m lost and I’ve a shitload of message I can share 😬

[mint trail]

Bring in the dirt

[final nest]

you have made it very clear that you just have an issue with my proposal and that is why you are doing this VONC

if anyone else is voting yes just because they disagree with my proposal... idk man

What is going on here will make ANY council member in future think twice before even considering to propose something that wont obviously be approved (when we already have council members mostly prefering to go along, so as to get along)

The community supporting this kind of thing is hurting the project and the DAO

if anyone that has upvoted this has genuine grounds other than disagreeing with my proposal for wanting to VONC me then please write a seperate VONC proposal that is well written, clearly not malicious and bias and based on an inability to have a civilised debate

[untold isle]

To be clear it's not only about this propsal.

• Many people have noted you are a rude and bad communication without any respect to others and constant name calling and not showing any will to do better.
• Only participate when you or zepytle post a proposal, doesn't engage with community.
• Previous epoch (when you on the council) didn't do anything as council member and then disappeared until new elections. Came back hung around in voice chat farming votes.
• Told mods in the past they should work less because pay is too low, do as less possible and take the money. Do we want people on council with this work ethic?
• You're youtuber that got elected but that doesn't make any content

[hot path]

It has always been the position of the team (or at least those I've spoken to regarding fuel) that second order sales of fuel are not desirable and we currently plan to disallow them. I can understand where Vetemor's confusion has come from with my proposal (it's my fault). In cleaning up the proposal to be specifically about the ability to place buy and sell orders it has been made ambiguous. I have just updated the proposal. I've also included some explanation as to why I think second order pools are not a large concern.

I know some people like the idea of being able to sell, but the planned method provides more stability since it can't be speculated on (by external actors that have no plans to play the game, such as arbitrageurs). There are other ramifications to allowing this that could potentially add more regulation.

I would love to see people pick their time to buy, stock up when it's cheap, and then spend it in game. I can answer questions about this in the town hall if you want.

Note: The only other addition to the proposal shown to council is the clarification that landholders must store fuel to sell it. They can't use sell orders as storage.

[worthy ember]

What's this "right here right now" attitude? If you raise concerns it's entirely appropriate for vet to take time to consider. Instead you've been demanding and rude throughout. Expecting vet to have all the answers immediately to his and the other proposals. Then cry victim and call for a VONC because we tire of your off topic rants getting in the way of actual criticism/discussion.

This is a childish use of a VONC.

[final nest]

Much thanks Aaron for the clarification

[final nest]

there are no requirements for a council member, especially someone that is not a community council member to interact with the community beyond governance related topics...

Previous Epoch I was not a Cuncil Member, this is why i did nothing as a council member lol...

whe did I tell mods to work less? evidence? I'm sure theres reasonable context there...

I didnt get elected with the promise of making videos, I am a council member and investor in illuvium first, barely a content creator, i just make videos when i feel like it, thats my business lol

I believe this is clear proof that the evidence provided against me was false, I'm no longer going to entertain any further discussion on this VONC

if anyone wants to propose a VONC with some actual reasoning and without bias due to a proposal you may disagree with I will happily respond and defend myself if need be

[rocky venture]

I am getting messages regarding this - and would like to just have it stated for anyone reading this thread now.

The current process to proceed to a vILV vote requires:

** 50 UPVOTES **

[untold isle]

-I'm talking about the the last one you where in (you didn't get anything done), then there was a gap and you just disappeared until the next election.

-There is that expectation for council members.

-I'm gonna hold back about the mods for now.

Your none response to the issue of respectful discord with community members is noted LOUDLY.

And your continued silence on the basic issues with your proposal. Which leads me to believe you don't have answers, yet still fight for your idea.

The issue with Aaron would have been extreme - I'm honestly glad that is not the case.

[hardy moth]

I see my misunderstanding here.
You don't pander.
And not pandering to you is how you communicate currently?
I'd say that's still not effective communication.
Yet you are not the only one.

[untold isle]

It's perfectly fine for council members to not 'know' everything. No one in the community expects that.

But when they raise a proposal that changes something from the whitepaper and been a known idea for years.

They should have ROBUST thinking surrounding the idea, and not just appeal to peoples fears of cypto.

Also be open to feedback - @final nest can you show a time in the discussion where you noted a flaw or something that needed to be looked at closer?

With emphasis on technical execution, governance implications or one of the more significant issues?

[final nest]

I also wanna say that I defo could have communicated better with u there, appologies if I was rude in my delivery

I'm fully aware that many don't like my public manner,
I try to be frank, to the point, maybe get passionate at times but always as honest and raw as I can be and true to how I think and feel and imo its the reason I was elected. I've just been trying to stay true to that even if it comes across as blunt/harsh at times

[shrewd crag]

I actually finished primary school a long time ago, so I’ll let zz cap handle the vetemor-thing, seems his mindset is THE perfect fit

🤭

[final nest]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-shookt-shocked-gif-5580082

[untold isle]

good luck all - think all the info is here

[shrewd crag]

Damn you delete all your messages while I was typing 🥳🥳

I’m sad now. Bouhouhouhou. Let me block you, that’s low like that in this thread after all 🤣

Time to sleep, glkkthxbye

[unborn lynx]

Couldn't this just get voted upon by the executioner council or whatever?

[fiery arrow]

Not as per gov v2. It goes through 2 paths. Community initiates which need 50 votes to go to the next step or its imc initiated

[shy bison]

I think @final nest might be brash with his words but I do think he is truly doing what he thinks will make most people money in the long game

[worthy ember]

The fact that the individual responsible for initiating this VONC is going around this server attempting to gain support with this is a clear demonstration that this VONC is in bad faith.

[shy bison]

I don't think it's in bad faith think both people involved in this are strong minded people and think they are right and they are clashing

[final nest]

we are both on different sides of a debate and feel strongly about our arguments, theres nothing wrong with that

also initiating a VoNC just because I have a different view than him... that is bad faith and a clear misuse of our systems of governance...

[shy bison]

Don't think it was u guys not agreeing on somethings. From talking with u in zero chat yesterday u don't mix ur words and some people find it offensive and can't deal with the way u talk

[final nest]

"offensive" is a matter of perception, nothing is inherently "offensive", whether or not someone takes offense from something or not is a personal issue, we are all different...

if people are offended by me speakly frankly that is not my issue, one of the things I promised when running for this position is that I would maintain transparency and honesty!

if I am going around attacking peoples character, thats different, I shouldnt be doing that and i have not done that, @untold isle on the other hand made multiple remarks attacking my character (which is against our server rules)

So no, I dont think that qualifies sufficient reason for a VoNC and this will certainly need changing, at least this whole thing is a great first stress test of the VoNC system, and my honor to be the first targetted

[opal mica]

not enough attention brought to this imo... isn't this enough of a reason to just call this entire post unnecessary, and negative for the entire DAO system? maybe even with some sort of warning or reminder to the OP of what and why does the VONC exist?

[shy bison]

Honestly it also comes from maybe u saying a part of the game is not needed

[opal mica]

that's people intentionally mis-interpreting what he actually said to mischaracterize the man. idk if you did read the discussion itself, he actually said that in a context to say that the priority, is not to build schemes that make "investors" short term money or big flips. but instead to build an environment that attracts players which will drive money for the investors...

And that's just how business is made. You don't build your business thinking on your investors interests. You build it with your end customer in mind because that's in the end what makes the most money to the investor.

People need to stop thinking that Gamers interests and investors interests are different. They're not! You make the gamer happy, the investor will be happy too. the opposite isnt true and is usually how people fail at building a sustainable business. Vetemor not only understood that, but made his best despite the repeated personal attacks of this "Individual".

[untold isle]

#1138647120635760672 message

I questioned your knowledge and skills as is my right. You took offence to that

[shy bison]

He actually said yesterday zero wasn't a real game and the real game is overworked there no mis-interpretation of that

[final nest]

idk if I said it wasnt a "real game" but on a technical level it certainly wasnt "necessary"

it does however exist and I am obviously not arguing to stop its existance or ever remove the 5% fuel revenue it earns

but when were talking at a high level, Arena is THE game, OW is a pack opening experience that provides things needed to play Arena, IZ came later with the idea of producing the in-game currency, which by no means had to happen it was an optional addition

this is not my opinion

I also own Land and I would want the best for Land Owners even if I didnt, because that is part of this job...

nothing I have said in this message is false and certainly wouldnt constitute a reason for a VoNC

[shy bison]

I have always said I think u gave the best intentions to make people the most money but u have said things that rub some people not me the wrong way

But what really constitutes a VoNC than

If people don't think u have their best interests wouldn't that be one

[ionic hornet]

VONC serves as a backstop against the council acting maliciously, it cannot be something the IMC votes on. If this reaches 50 upvotes, it will go to a vILV vote.

There also isn't an executioner council or eDAO, per gov V2.

[runic lake]

My only comment there is that we fully intend for Zero, Overworld and Arena to be fully featured games in their own right.

Zero has amazing potential

[final nest]

and I fully agree that they should be

otherwise what was the point of building them lol

[final nest]

Then those people should not vote for me in the next election

A vote of no confidence is when a council member clearly is acting maliciously against the interests of the DAO

If someone would like to provide evidence that I am acting maliciously they should, but none has been provided

Council Members represent different groups of people who voted them in, this is good and means we have diverse representation, but we dont VoNC those we didnt vote for or dont like because they represent the views of those that elected them... this way we have a well rounded representative council

Not liking someone or disagreeing with them is not the right reason to be upvoting a VoNC

[regal meteor]

I have been unhappy with some of the things Vetemor has said about land, he knows that as I have written him privately concerning it.

What he has said in this thread is basically no different to what he said before he was elected.

As much as I seem to now always sit on the opposite side of Vetemor, I just don't see how a no confidence vote is applicable here. This Vetemor is who was voted in, he didn't change after election. So, a thumbs down from me.

I do think this whole thing highlights an issue though. What type of public behavioural standard should we hold council to? They sign a NDA but perhaps they also need to sign something about how they will represent Illuvium publicly. Or maybe not, maybe we want a free-for-all council. But, it should be discussed. In many companies, employees that represent their company get fired for saying some of the types of things that some Illuvium council members (not just Vetemor) have said about Illuvium.

[shy bison]

I don't think it's should be a VoNC but just trying to think why it was brought up

[final nest]

I agree, this situation has brought to light blind spots in the gov v2 system that most certainly need addressing.

I appreciate your sane and sensible response Torial

https://tenor.com/view/mando-way-mandalorian-star-wars-this-is-the-way-gif-18467372

[final nest]

it was brought up because zz cap found out he could just randomly initiate a VoNC against me after he disagrees with me and decided why not...

more clear guidelines around VoNC will be established in future to prevent it being misused arbitrarily during a disagreement

[shy bison]

I think he truly believes u don't know what ur talking about not saying that is true. And it's more than just u not agreeing

[opal mica]

isn't it a common human behaviour though to pretend that if someone doesnt agree with you on what you consider "obvious" then they don't know shit about what they're talking about?

[ionic hornet]

This has been a topic we've discussed quite a lot and it's not trivial to find a good solution.

Behavioral standards vary pretty drastically across demographics, and while a company may be in a position to dictate standards, it's a bit anti-DAO to try and control people's speech and expression.

I say this from the position of absolutely seeing value in maintaining a level of decorum and calm, thoughtful discourse.

While I may not agree with every council members choices with regards to wording and community interaction , I don't believe the evidence shared here shows bad faith on vet's part, but VONC is about the community's expectations for elected council members, and I do think behavior is a valid reason to initiate a VONC. This decision is left up to ILV holders for a reason. Personally, I don't feel the evidence shared here is sufficient to justify a vote in favor of this VONC, but that's just my perspective. Others are allowed to disagree.

[shy bison]

I agree and a good debate is healthy but things need to stick to topic and I think both people the one that start this VoNV and the person it's on took it to personal attacks

[final nest]

please provide 1 piece of evidence of me throwing a personal attack?

and if u mean the first message I sent in this thread...

if thats the only "personal attack" and after being courtious and answering questions off zz all day while he continually belittled, bullied and attacked me personally (with no mods ever stepping in)

then idk...

I stand by what I say, its not a personal attack, I was standing up for myself after a full day of abuse

[shy bison]

Listen I don't think it's no confidence vote should happen I think u do have have what's best for all

[shy bison]

I have to go through the other chat but there was some name calling

And I not saying he didn't start it

[final nest]

oh I know, because everyone knows he started it lol

[shy bison]

He was very inappropriate with what he said and should of keep it to not agreeing with ur proposal

And that might come down to a maturity with some we do have young investors that take it too personally

[final nest]

idk, personally if u have an issue with someone you talk to them privately and sort it out

or jump in a public voice call and hash it out

whatever

even offered early on to do so with zz as he was escalating

from my side I feel like I was bullied, trolled and harrassed all day until I literally felt debilitated and was then hung publicly by the person who bullied me and was mobbed

My biggest fear out of all of this is that Council Members who have ideas or proposals in future that they are unsure of how they might be received will keep them to themselves rather than putting them out there and contributing to our ecosystem

at the end of the day, even if my proposal doesnt go through, it will have raised valuable debate that will certainly strengthen the proposal that takes its place, this is a good thing, we dont need a one sided council that never disagree, its not healthy

[shy bison]

Yes u were bullied and harassed and shouldn't be for making something u thought what was best for all. It comes down to a maturity thing or people investing money they shouldn't of and they take it personally. I personally disagreed with ur proposal but neither u or the other council member attacked me personally but than again I only invest money I can lose

[regal meteor]

The issue is that blind voting was put in. That almost makes some sort of standard necessary because as long as blind voting is in the few "controversial" people will always (edited: not always, but often) be voted in, even if the majority aren't for their opinions.

Which I guess is when a VONC comes into play but by the time that takes place, the damage is done. I think it is insanity to hold fully open elections where someone who hates Illuvium (I am off-topic, I don't mean Vetemor) can run if they own 1 ILV and then get voted in by a small group of people even though the majority, if they saw the votes happening would do what it took to keep them out of a position of power.

Often, it's more important about who doesn't get in than who does.

[final nest]

fortunately I am yet to see anyone running who "hates illuvium"

and if that were to ever happen and be clear imo they shouldnt be allowed to run in the first place because it goes against the job role lol

[regal meteor]

As a council member you shouldn't call someone a troll, no matter what they said to you. There are times you have to take a higher ground, even when it's hard and unfair.

I do hope this whole thing doesn't shut down council members from speaking their ideas but I also hope it encourages council members to weigh what they say carefully so it is said respectfully.

[regal meteor]

Like you, I tend to speak in exaggeration.

[final nest]

ay, so do I

[final nest]

I didnt call him a troll for 12 whole hours of abuse,

I however am human and after being berated for a whole day, belittled and had my character called into question, the high ground starts to be tough

at what point are you just not standing up for yourself and allowing someone to treat you poorly?

[cerulean bolt]

Why is this thread still here? Aaron already confirmed that Vetemor was actually correct in the thread that seemed to initiate this VONC, where he's accused of "He didn't even now the basics of the proposal he was arguing against."

[shy bison]

He should of been muted at one point for like a certain time

[final nest]

Mods should have stepped in, I agree

[night stag]

Can you point to specific examples? All you have to do is ping them.

[uncut birch]

i can not watch 24 hour this channel. if you see something. ping the mods.

[opal mica]

yet you still both upvoted this "proposal"...

[lusty token]

Despite all jokes and the fact that I am currently taking a dump and happened to see this, we are not actually watching everywhere all of the time.

[regal meteor]

You take the abuse. You represent council with integrity and that means being respectful even when the person is not. You point out how they are incorrect but you don't resort to name calling. It's hard. I get it. I worked as a retail manager at one point in life. You at least get the option of walking away from the keyboard and taking a moment before responding.

[uncut birch]

and that is my right too

[opal mica]

you can't be the referee and kick the ball for one side or another. I think influencial figures and representatives of authority in this discord should stay away from these discussions regardless of how many ILV you do or not hold

[uncut birch]

i am still a member of the community.

[night stag]

Although we try

[regal meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-wanna-know-that-lucy-upload-i-dont-care-about-that-dont-tell-me-gif-25097967

[opal mica]

you're a moderator, a mod is entitled to objectivity and neutrality.

and so should our community manager

and this is something i already mentioned a couple times

[final nest]

fair

[worthy ember]

Interestingly the response time to this post from the mods was remarkably quick

[uncut birch]

So you're saying I'm not allowed to vote?

[final nest]

sure, in hindsight i guess i should have just told mods about it

[shy bison]

Hindsight is 20/20

[final nest]

just not a fan of snitching generally

[uncut birch]

because now everyone is online.

[lusty token]

Maybe we need an IIP that mods and team members get one free alt account for use in governance channels.

[opal mica]

not in a public vote, or worst... TYPE like @night stag did. as it clearly influences other peoples votes and that's the last thing we expect from our mods or community manager

[shy bison]

If someone influenced ur vote by how they vote that might say more about u

[final nest]

idk im fine with mods having opinions

the community manager on the other hand...

[opal mica]

because you seriously expect the mass to be free minds?

[uncut birch]

i thought its a DAO and not a "you are allowed and you not."

[shy bison]

Well that's a problem I can't fix for those people

[regal meteor]

You didn't only have two options, tell the mods or call him a troll though. There were some other options.🙂

[opal mica]

but still something we need to keep in mind when setting up a system that we want fair and unbiased for everyone

[final nest]

I see his side too, mods have power others do not, issues that a mod cares more about will inevitably be better moderated than a discussion that no mods are that active in

there is natural bias

but i dont know if there is anything we can do about it

[shy bison]

But other mods voted no so people need to not look and vote what they think

[opal mica]

Making this discord a safe place for everyone to express themselves is as far as i know the mods and community's manager responsibilities, and 2 of these individuals clearly failed on it during this shitshow. i think it deserves to be expressed

[final nest]

can we appreciate that I did not call him a troll until he created an entire proposal to get me removed from the council with evidence that I knew was innacurate (which aaron came in and showed was true)

so he made an entire proposal to get me removed using false assumptions as evidence, (after harrashing me all day)

maybe im crazy, but thats trolling and is worth call out lol

I've seen founders call out trolls as trolls,

sometimes u gotta call a thing a thing

[regal meteor]

Is there any way of masking who votes thumbs up and down so that we can't click on it and see who has voted what? That might be a good system so people won't feel obligated to vote certain ways. Then team, mods and Rich could also vote without anyone being concerned with how they are voting.

[final nest]

that might be worse as then people can make alt accounts and game the system

now that we can track it no one can do that

and if only mods and team have access to that info thats also an issue tbh

[opal mica]

i don't think Discord allows that, also it would also need to imply that they don't type on those discussions. otherwise yeah such a system would be better than what we have right now

[rocky venture]

I find that there is a fine line... as a MOD the line is a bit blurry for sure, but as long as you remain impartial I think you have every right to vote as a community member (ILV holder)

For me as a councilman, I do not want to influence any opnions or voting, so typically leave my vote off unless it is a a clear side.

For instance, this has been pretty at even leaning towards 👎 for most of it.

I do not think his behavioral warrants a VONC, however, I believe council being held to a higher standard than community in our communications and responses is very important. Respect is everything!

[uncut birch]

the only thing i did is put a thumbs up on it. i did not comment about it. because i don´t need to comment about it.

[worthy ember]

I'd say you should be allowed. However, picking sides as a mod on very contentious issues can create problems.

If it was me I'd abstain and focus on keeping this VONC on topic and respectful

[uncut birch]

the thing is i don´t pick side as a mod. the thumps up is my personal opinion.
i am a mod to check if someone is going against the rules.
i don´t want to influence someone on this. thats why i didn´t comment about it.

[cerulean bolt]

@untold isle may want to update the VONC

[regal meteor]

That's fair.

It would just be nice to have a way to let people who maybe don't like going against the grain to vote. Anyhow, I gotta get some work done.

[opal mica]

curious to hear why our community manager felt the need to type... and actually even be one of the first ones to type here

[uncut birch]

then you need to ask him not me.

[opal mica]

i did, still waiting for the reply

[night stag]

https://tenor.com/view/pedro-monkey-puppet-meme-awkward-gif-15268759

[cerulean bolt]

Now we're going after people who have too much influence for having opinions? 😕

[shy bison]

I wish my opinion mattered

[night stag]

Ditto

[uncut birch]

looks like but i don´t think i have much influence

[opal mica]

no, going for people who SHOULD represent order and neutrality specially during controversies/conflicts to REMAIN neutral in those situations.

[cerulean bolt]

Whose job role specifies that they represent neutrality for governance?

[final nest]

I say mods should have opinions and be free to voice them

The community manager however (who is also the manager of all of governance) should be impartial at all times

This is the highest administrator over community and governance and oversees everything, if theyre not completely impartial then how can they effectively and without bias do their job...

[opal mica]

wouldn't you expect the mods or community manager to remain neutral to be able to MODERATE, even the WORD moderation entitles to neutrality

[shy bison]

They should just make me mod I Hate people u all will je neutrality hated lol

[cerulean bolt]

No, I expect moderators to ensure civil debate and keep out the riff raff from discord, ensure rules are followed. I wouldn't expect them to read this stuff all day without being able to share an opinion

These are discord moderators, not arbitrators

Maybe Rich is different in his governance role I guess, but depends what that role specifies really

[opal mica]

I mean what i posted above is what the word moderator means, and why i expect neutrality from mods/community managers. it's not an opinion, that's what the word's definition entitles to. you can't change the word just to fit a narrative.

and Rich's case is even more tricky because traditionally, a community manager isnt even supposed to rule or moderate a discord. Traditionally the community manager is in charge of social media communication and/or customer service.

but here, ensuring this discord remains fair for everyone is actually his job. I know he does a lot of other stuff, but he's responsible of neutrality and fairness in this discord

[untold isle]

https://tenor.com/view/bb16-big-brother16-lulu-gifs-derrick-levasseur-on-point-gif-15503690

[dreamy moat]

In my view, this debate boils down to Zz's decision to pen a VONC due to his dissatisfaction with Vet's proposal. Adding to the complexity, Vetemor's comment exacerbated the situation by resorting to personal attacks against Zz. I have repeatedly emphasized that team members should be held to a higher standard, and this principle extends to council members as well imo. However, I am of the opinion that the situation does not warrant a VONC at all.

At this point, I’d advise that Vet refrains from displaying emotional reactions, regardless of the heightened tensions. The ability to maintain composure and professionalism is necessary for a council member (idc what the situation is). Simultaneously, it is crucial to recognize that our current focus on this matter detracts from addressing the incredibly important fuel discussions.

[untold isle]

It’s more about how he engages in conversation in such a extreme way promoting fighting and not dialogue. He and his supporters bully people out of conversations.

You can see it happen over and over again. Trying to get the mods and Rich out of the conversation bc they don’t support them.

No one likes interacting with them if you point out any problems with there thinking and you are not ‘important’ enough for them to respect.

But I agree the fuel conversations are much more important.

——
This is very much a recurring problem. I think that fact that we are even this close (surprise to me honestly) shows that it is a pattern.

[opal mica]

first if you wanna talk about me, you can mention ME. i am the only one entitled to my own opinions. not a "supporter".

And yes i have no fear or saying my opinion. May it be about you and your childish use of the VONC (i don't remember who said it earlier but i'll re-use it because it's actually very good wording to describe the situation) or how they handled this situation.

[worthy ember]

There are 39 people that have put their support behind vet. I'd reconsider referring to them as bullies

[opal mica]

I'd also like to point out that this entire thread who made countless people lose their valuable time is due to you not be willing to admit that people may have different opinions than yours @untold isle . Not only you claim that Vetemor doesn't know what he's talking about because you don't agree with his proposal, but then you claim that if people downvote your proposal it's because we are an "army of supporters".

btw @night stag still dodging the question, should i make an entire separate topic about the role of the community manager and moderators instead?

[untold isle]

I’m not talking about all his supporters. But the ones still trying to yell at me and others.

[lusty token]

I can think of other council members that behave in the ways you describe in this post (except the mods part I guess)

[opal mica]

VONC for everyone

[lusty token]

Yes. It’s not really relevant to this topic, right?

[opal mica]

fair, i'll do it when i get some time and cool to word it correctly

[long valve]

all this and we are not even in prime time...giving me worries

[lusty token]

It seems to me like the recent IIP-35 will work on addressing much of the concerns in this area.

So… can I vote on this now or not?

[hardy moth]

I think that's a bit misleading.

[opal mica]

yes that screenshot is very misleading about his intentions

[worthy ember]

Ya see this is the problem. You continue to make these big generalities. Vet supporters are bullies, oh I didn't mean all.

If we're going to make any progress on this you've got to start and be more specific about what your actual concerns are. So far you've bounced around aimlessly between several criticisms ( vets qualifications, the proposal, his behaviour, his supporters, his wallet history, his time spent in council ect).

Tbh it seems to me like you're just throwing as much mud as you can hoping something sticks.

[rocky venture]

40 - but I have made my comments clear as to why

@worthy ember @opal mica the matching profile pictures is throwing me off

[hardy moth]

He was asked by a community member to explain. There is more to this than everyone is saying.

[final nest]

ill come in to make it easier

[opal mica]

Rypter gang is in da place!

[hardy moth]

He is allowed too.
They are also affected.

[rocky venture]

Oh there is a Rypter Ring or Rypter Cartel - noted ✅️

[hardy moth]

Start by moderating yourself.

[uncut birch]

So Sub Council Member are allowed to vote? they don´t influence other people?

[final nest]

of course

[rocky venture]

I have held off voting until now - made sure my stance was clear first and why

If I was voting the other way, this may influence others to side with me and match my vote - if you would like, I am okay removing my vote 🗳

[opal mica]

well they got voted in to give their opinions... xD which is why my neutrality speech doesn't apply to people like Blickter

[hardy moth]

This is so out of line.
How about taking responsibility for your own behavior. Mods also get attacked every time they intervene.

[uncut birch]

All good. i am for that everyone can vote. so can you.

[rocky venture]

From the opposite side, everytime! Calling for favoritism and unfair bias ....

[hardy moth]

Just because one aspect of what ZZ said was incorrect doesn't mean it all was.
I read the whole thing everywhere, and you didn't answer his questions for ages.
Makes anyone doubt you have in-depth knowledge

You did the same to me about answering what standards council members are held too.

[rocky venture]

Someone will always be here to say ** "You can do better" ** - no argument from me on that, always room for growth and improvement!

This is why, as mentioned, the importance for the new IIP - this is why all Councils passed it through and so quickly- Peer Evaluation is there to assist in constructive criticism - should there be a community review/Feedback for Council? 🤔

[lusty token]

But also when we don’t. It’s a party.

But it’s also the job.

[uncut birch]

i am not acting unfair or favor anyone.
if all people follow the rules i am good with every discussion.
people need to understand that they need to be respectful to each other.

[hardy moth]

I find it interesting that this just turned into a discussion about Mods and Community management.
It all seems to be a bit of deflecting.

[uncut birch]

If people think i am acting unfair or favor anyone. please vote me out of my position if this is possible.
good night i am done for today.

[worthy ember]

I guess we're learning as we go with a lot of this DAO stuff. First VONC, what is and isn't appropriate?

[opal mica]

i do take full responsibility for what i say. i don't see why my position of just a community member would make me not able to speak my mind 🙂 In fact that's the coolest thing about not being in the council. Glad the community didn't vote me in, so i don't get censored like people are trying to censor council members from their opinions.

[hardy moth]

You don't know that. It's pure speculation. Yet you present it as fact.

[opal mica]

did you read the screenshot?

he's litterally been campaigning around telling people to upvote this so that Josh would get in, and quickly deleting his own messages

[hardy moth]

Everyone should be.
Council has a standard to adhere too. Which Vet never answered me, yet sidelines and made it all about me. Which is what is now happening here.

Shifting responsibility.

[opal mica]

like that screenshot is one of the messages who got deleted

[hardy moth]

Campaigning? Where

[opal mica]

was it on token channel that this message was initially on?

[hardy moth]

In the chat here. I was he when he said it.

[opal mica]

something like that

[hardy moth]

Totally misrepresented

Yet that's okay.

[opal mica]

yet the screenshot is there

of a deleted message

from another channel than this one

[hardy moth]

It was from here.
Really. Looks exactly the same as what he said in here word for word

[final nest]

a lot of people asking a lot of things at once, trying to answer them can leave questions missed, i wasnt avoiding questions

I did avoid zz's questions as to what my crypto qualifications were because I believed that the issue was a monetisation and gaming one and i made that clear to him and gave him my experience in gaming monetisation

he was also pretty rude and pretty constant early on 🤷‍♀️

[hardy moth]

He also said he only just looked.

[lusty token]

I have not read all the posts in here. But I think the screenshot in question has OP next to his name. That’s indicative of a thread, this thread. Here in governance.

[final nest]

anyways i think we've beaten this dead horse long enough, im personally going to move on with my life

[hardy moth]

There was more to it. I read and was there for a lot of it.

Also you stated the team was behind your proposal.
I would like that clarified.

Because I believe that is also a misrepresentation of the facts.

[final nest]

i have never stated that

I have stated that the team has said that my proposal is doable and would take less work to implement than any other proposal

[hardy moth]

No that is not how you worded it.

[opal mica]

crap can't find the one from the token channel anymore, good job on deleting it @untold isle

[final nest]

u have a screenshot?

[opal mica]

you made me look silly when i clearly saw it

[final nest]

happy to explain

[opal mica]

btw enough of this chat. this "proposal" has no legs, im off to play good web2 games 🙂

[hardy moth]

I'll look for it now. It was to me in your proposal.

You added a fastest afterwards.

[hardy moth]

Probably because it's just from here.

[opal mica]

no i clearly saw the message appearing, someone else calling his attention on it, and him deleting

it was on a different channel

[lusty token]

Zzcap is certainly active in #💰〕token and linked to this thread in there. You aren’t crazy. And im pretty sure it’s still there.

[rocky venture]

For the record, it was also in other channels as well, as I commented on it

[hardy moth]

Okay. My bad

[untold isle]

In the future, how should I tell you that your are speaking and using incorrect thinking about a topic I know much better than you? Because it seems just saying it is offensive.

If this is what you are talking about - I don't know what to tell you. #1138413251277901895 message

It's so clear you have a massive bias when it comes to market dynamics and believe your judgment on pricing is better.

Even when one of the primary innovations of crypto is global liquidity and better liquidity means better pricing of a market. You clearly were missing that thinking from you thoughts.

[lusty token]

But part of governance is usually drumming up support for your ideas anyways.

[rocky venture]

#💰〕token message

[hardy moth]

Thanks Ricky

[rocky venture]

@opal mica - it was in other channels, however there is nothing wrong with this either - there is no guidelines around "campaigning" for endorsement on an IIP or VONC

He could have taken it to Twitter or shared it even wider if he wanted, that is withing his right

[opal mica]

#💰〕token message this is around where he mentioned Josh again, just the josh message was deleted

[opal mica]

the campaigning part i agree. my issue is when the campaign moves from "is Vetemor able to fill his position within the council" to "let's get josh in"

[rocky venture]

My stance - do not like that in the case of VONC, and I made that clear

[final nest]

drumming up support for your proposal to remove a council member not because "come on guys lets remove this guys thats malicious and ruining the DAO" but by saying "guys if we do this we can get someone in that we like, such as Josh" its at least a bit dodgy, but sure lol

(btw I think Josh should be on the council, he'd make a great council member)

[shy bison]

I don't know Josh so that wouldn't effect me

[lusty token]

Being the test subject for VoNC process in govV2 is not fun. I think there was talk previously about VoNC process being more clear. Maybe something for comSub to look into soon.

[rocky venture]

I stated that this approach was not correct - feel free to check my comments on that (PS - the update was made shortly after my original post)
#💰〕token message

[rocky venture]

... already looking into 🙂

[hardy moth]

@final nest that was my mistake.
You said the team thinks yours would be the easiest and fastest to complete.
I need to tap out because I'm becoming biased.
I'm a little bemused this conversation is still happening.

Have you slept?

[untold isle]

@final nest I tired to ping you in a different channel to settle this, but didn't hear anything so just gonna let the clock run out I guess.

For the record, with Aarons comment the merit of the VONC is probably not there - I agree.

That said - I don't think you are qualified to be on the council, not because you don't have enough experience in crypto or gaming, but because you are completely shut off to feedback.

The amount of ppl that voted for this and your proposal should show you that, if not my dms would.

I honestly hope you reflect because the dao would benefit greatly.

I probably won't be voting for you but luckly it's not my call. This is a group effort, and it's pretty frustrating when someone thinks they know everything and just wants to shove a proposal down the communities face, especially when it goes against years of expectation.

So you can expect me to keep standing up if that keeps happening.

[loud haven]

I've been too busy to write but already gave it a thumbs down earlier, I strongly disagree with the last thing Vet proposed and don't see eye to eye in many issues BUT I've known Vet for a while now and I don't feel malicious intent in his actions, he is pushy and controversial as is his content creator nature. If the majority didn't like him he wouldn't be on the council so often.

@final nest maybe take this as a learning experience to improve your communications skills

[hardy moth]

Thanks for this.
I only voted due to communication issues. It's not isolated to vetamor.
I'd definitely like clearer guidelines for ethics in communication.
Everyone has their own ideas on what something means.
Perhaps it needs to be voted on by the DAO.

An agreed upon understanding of what effective communication and listening is.

[fiery arrow]

On the topic of behavior, gov v2 outlines some basic principles

[valid whale]

After much reading today my only comment is that if Vet gets a VONC based on his communications in discord and twitter, then a precedence will be set by which other current council members will also be open to a vote of no confidence. Council members do need to be held to a high standard. This may all be a good reminder to all council members, mods and the general community to be measured and thoughtful before typing something.