swift ibex
Sorry, has to be said. As an investor, the D of DAO is a frightening concept. Hand back majority control of the internal operations to Illuvium Labs, and elect one representative of the community for each council.
(Un)founded Fear # 1 : Losing invaluable employees due to professional frustration and sabotage.
Change my mind.
Edit: I know it will be shot down. But I'm interested in seeing who agrees. Actually scrap that, I'm interested in seeing why people disagree. Calm my fears with logic plz
nova quarry
I'll bite on this just cause I'm bored.
Aside from the fact that web3 is built on the ecosystem of a (D)ecentralized base, what drives your first and only introduced fear aside from speculation? Have you seen or spoken with employees or members of the DAO that have given up explicitly stating that reason?
As my own input, I'll say that I do think that there are members of the council that I've interacted with that I don't feel represent ILV in thoughtful and unbiased manner.
swift ibex
@nova quarry I appreciate the bite and am genuinely interested in seeing all points of view. . The first question is what drives my fear other than speculation. Your final statement is the answer to that question.
And no I have not seen or know of a single employee who has quit due to the DAO structure. Thank fucking god. I treasure every team member. Look at what they're achieving
nova quarry
While I don't think that proposing a dissolution of the DAO for speculative purposes is appropriate (and thus this particular feedback earns my 👎 ), I will certainly say that I expect council members to interact positively on this discord server and have seen a few instances lately where I would expect them to take a more measured approach to their responses. I understand the pressures that working in customer service can bring, however it's important to remember that they are receiving payments for their services of being a part of the council. As such - fairly or unfairly - I hold them to a higher standard than those that aren't.
I am a proponent of free speech and allowing people to say their peace; however, server rules do exist. I would much rather see slightly more warning/policing take place throughout areas of the server in order to foster a welcoming environment. What may look like simple bickering to some is not as obvious to new members or silent browsers, especially if this is going to be the OFFICIAL area for communications. I would ask them to remember that early adopters are the most important driver of success for games in a massively bloated market - and that is only magnified by existing in the web3 space in which there is already massive feelings of distrust and uselessness towards blockchain gaming to overcome.
Lastly, and I will say that this stems from having a DAO (and thus a variety of opinions) in the first place, I would say that when interacting with various DAO members, it is becoming more difficult to grasp what exactly each of the ILV games and their game modes is trying to be, what space they are trying to exist in, and what audience they are targeting - and how they plan to effectively incorporate more players in that space. This project is the one that I feel stands to be a flagship in the web3 space, but it feels difficult to know which area of it to recommend to my friends.
swift ibex
While I don't think that proposing a dissolution of the DAO for speculative purp...
This considered and measured response is exactly why I posted this parent question. Thankyou for this @nova quarry
agile ginkgo
your concern can be solved by two things that doesnt need the dissolution of the DAO system. 1) Dont elect these type of people; and 2) Have a system that makes them accountable for their words and actions.
I have an IIP that I would be posting soon that would help with no.2.
swift ibex
your concern can be solved by two things that doesnt need the dissolution of the...
I have about 30 vILV and I don't even know the last or first names of any of the candidates let alone their resume.
agile ginkgo
I have about 30 vILV and I don't even know the last or first names of any of the...
You dont read the nomination bio?
swift ibex
You dont read the nomination bio?
Nah. I just vote for the popular people. Like perhaps many others do.
agile ginkgo
Thats fair. Another avenue you can do is initiate a complaint against the errant council members for a vote of no confidence to get them kicked out of the council:
swift ibex
Thats fair. Another avenue you can do is initiate a complaint against the errant...
Oh I definitely don't have any complaints against any current members. I honestly can't even remember who any of them are except for a few of my friends. My main fear is when I see discussions on twitter which lead me to infer there is tension between experts on the team, and council members who have less expertise. I'm scared that a valuable team member with more experience, may be outvoted by others with less worthy ideas on each proposal. I'm grateful that you are formulating an iip though. If each current council member were to become employees of illuvium labs and the DAO structure be dissolved, I would be perfectly comfortable with that. But I know that's not going to happen.
keen flare
I mean I can definitely list reasons as to why it is not beneficial to dissolve it but this question made me think about the future. If we release the web3 version of the game is there any reality in which Illuvium transitions into a web2 company and sell the game to a web2 audience if worse case scenario gamers just don’t want to convert. All the focus has been to the game which I love but if people don’t like the masses don’t like blockchain integration, is it possible to switch gears, idk how that would effect investors already invested into the project. I don’t want to see the game die just because we are in a crypto winter and at the same time if worst comes to worst and we have the option to either shut everything down or change the course of the game to a more receptive audience I would obviously choose life over death. Like I said this is more of a worst case scenario that I am spit balling
lone bough
The amount of vILV held by the Warwicks and the most supportive VCs remains overwhelming. The DAO is well in hand.
If there were no ILV DAO then there would be no reason to execute any sort of revenue distribution in the future. Illuvium is not a corporation and so there is no stock. Illuvium is a DAO and so there is ILV.
But if the concern is not DAO in general but the current iteration of Illuvium Governance v2… it does not seem like the DAO has the means to meddle with internal operations. The DAO can set goals, ideate and approve changes, and squash ideas that the team fails to convince its biggest fans to adopt. I would think that casting a vision to fanatics is going to be easier than marketing the same concepts to outsiders.
Perhaps there’s some twitter drama that I missed.
arctic dew
DAO is mostly marketing trick at this point. Illuvium labs has the biggest influence in the project. We had an example for a few of these cases: 1. the raise. 2. GS disks. 3. Merch. All of those were handled by the team.
I like that the team asks for feedback. I'd say this is a step forward from centralization, but we're not there yet.
true verge
The amount of vILV held by the Warwicks and the most supportive VCs remains over...
Is it possible for illuvium to be acquired by a larger, better-funded corporation if it is not a corporation ?
What happens if the funds run out?
tame pilot
sell more treasury token
true verge
sell more treasury token
🤣
agile ginkgo
DAO is mostly marketing trick at this point. Illuvium labs has the biggest influ...
TBF, no. 2 and 3 was because Marketing was delegated soley to the team back then. Gov v2 is course correcting that 😄
rich depot
honestly, I also have more confidence in the team than in DAO
agile ginkgo
honestly, I also have more confidence in the team than in DAO
There should definitely be a balance between the two. You wont expect the DAO to go granular telling the team how to do their job. High level directions are essential.
teal vessel
IMO: The DAO does not have control over funds and their allocation, so there is nothing to worry about. It’s a DAO on paper but whoever controls the money controls the entity. The DAO is just a way of creating a structure where inputs can be given in a formalised way
agile ginkgo
IMO: The DAO does not have control over funds and their allocation, so there is ...
Thats a dangerous statement that has regulatory implications, ser. I would caution making that sound like a fact.
fickle anvil
honestly, I also have more confidence in the team than in DAO
This ^^^
I gave it a thumbs up @swift ibex I don't know how serious you were creating this thread but I completely agree with its premise. I have not seen anything other than getting rid of the 1 illuvial to rule them all rule to give me confidants in this structure in a long time. If you look at my history I used to be 100% behind the team and the council.
Though the mindset and history of some individuals ( not just one person I am thinking of) council actually get elected by community erodes my confidents in the community itself ideologies, I tried to give context to this by provide a post i made back in late 2021 /22 in one of the channels but with the reconfigument of discord at one point it seems to have gotten lost.
This post was longer but really will probably just get another ohh solar tl/dl type comments at this point anyways.
Basic- premise this post is a vote of no confidence from one ILV staker that has been here a too long it seems to see this a shadow of what it began as. If my opinion even means anything is up to the individual I guess.
tame pilot
Thats a dangerous statement that has regulatory implications, ser. I would cauti...
lets check the fact then.
does the council has control over the treasury and its spending?
when asked about payments to GS : NDA
asked about VC raise : NDA
do you even know the breakdown of each of team salary?
breakdown on marketing expenses?
how much did we spend on the office? rent price?
teal vessel
Thats a dangerous statement that has regulatory implications, ser. I would cauti...
Edited
arctic dew
I think the DAO is not supposed to micromanage the team.
It should be thought of as an outsource team.
You don't tell them how to spend the money they got from their contract, you're just expecting a product in the end.
teal vessel
I think the DAO is not supposed to micromanage the team.
It should be thought of...
Yeah, I always thought this would be the smartest approach. Don’t believe the DAO and IlluviumLabs have a contract that governs spending/funding and milestones though.
tame pilot
I think the DAO is not supposed to micromanage the team.
It should be thought of...
so we already gave them the whole treasury?
and its future revdis?
arctic dew
so we already gave them the whole treasury?
Technically it should be possible to change the team, but let's be real it's impossible.
And someone has to manage the keys to the treasury. I'm not aware of solutions that would allow the DAO to own the treasury.
We might be able to vote on what to spend the treasury on, but there needs to be someone that executes that in the end.
The team is a trusted party. Maybe someone will invent a smart contract that will allow a DAO to own funds and distribute them as it sees fit, but we're not there yet.
And let's remember there need to be stops put in place in case of DAO attacks. (Even ethereum suffered one)
We have an eDAO, that it letting us play democracy at this point. But they have all the power here.
With current available tech DAO is an overgloryfied forum. Nothing that needs web3 to exist.
agile ginkgo
lets check the fact then.
does the council has control over the treasury and its...
I dont see facts in your statements more like fishing for information.
I hate to pull out the NDA card but honestly, were bound by it. But it should give you a little assurance that there are information being shared to the council members relating to these things. For obvious reasons, these arent things you can share to the public.
tame pilot
I dont see facts in your statements more like fishing for information.
I hate t...
i dont see an answer to my questions more like redirection
ill simplified it.
who owns and controls the Treasury?
see
no further questions, your honor
agile ginkgo
Such a troll ser. I gave you the reason why we can't answer your questions. We're under NDA.
But for the treasury, that's owned by the DAO.
tame pilot
if the treasury is owned by the DAO, how come we didnt have an IIP to give bonus to team and sell treasury token?
check mate.
agile ginkgo
if the treasury is owned by the DAO, how come we didnt have an IIP to give bonus...
This is a good question which I asked myself and yet to find the answer to.
tame pilot
there was over 300K from the treasury that went out without an IIP
agile ginkgo
Yep I was made aware after lelahel shared that in another thread.
empty shoal
there was over 300K from the treasury that went out without an IIP
Is this true? Where did 300k tokens go
arctic dew
Is this true? Where did 300k tokens go
Maybe it was the GS partnership. And that's 300k ETH, not ILV.
empty shoal
Maybe it was the GS partnership. And that's 300k ETH, not ILV.
I thought it's 300k ilv missing, thanks
lone bough
I thought it's 300k ilv missing, thanks
It’s not missing. It’s in the vesting contract.
tame pilot
Maybe it was the GS partnership. And that's 300k ETH, not ILV.
ILV
tame pilot
It’s not missing. It’s in the vesting contract.
can you elaborate? i couldnt find it in the burn report too
lone bough
can you elaborate? i couldnt find it in the burn report too
We were talking about this previously. It is not on the burn report. Any tokens that had been given to the team members as onboarding compensation or whatever are in the vesting contract still. #💰〕token message
Only the original seed/preseed and non-admin tokens are fully vested in the contract.
rustic hare
Hey @swift ibex
I've had doubts about the structure myself. Mainly due the differences I see in other blockchain gaming setups.
For me it mainly hinges on communication. I agree 100 percent with what @nova quarry said.
However I don't believe dissolving the DAO is worth it.
Despite culture differences I do believe it can be something amazing.
As a collective it would be great to come up with an agreed upon ethos on how we wish to be perceived.
For all the other stuff I just don't know.
It's definitely not like this for other games out there. The tone, trust, and belief in the teams is completely different.
I feel there are some underlying issues that for some people haven't been resolved.
Maybe it's a hangover of NFT projects?
I'm glad you raised the question.
tame pilot
We were talking about this previously. It is not on the burn report. Any tokens ...
the app doesnt work for me. how much was given to team members as signing bonus?
lone bough
the app doesnt work for me. how much was given to team members as signing bonus?
I don’t know. It depends on what they were hired for apparently.
I’m not going to use my limited internet connection to read that page again again again today.
empty shoal
I'm lost, everyone talking about different topics. Have 300k tokens been given as bonus to people or is it just a bs rumor
lone bough
ru on a hike?
lone bough
We were talking about this previously. It is not on the burn report. Any tokens ...
The tweet/link shared in this post should load.
lone bough
I'm lost, everyone talking about different topics. Have 300k tokens been given a...
There may be a newer burn report. But not on my phone. The original token allocation is also pretty clear.
tame pilot
the treasury supposed to have 1.85m token.
minus 333k sold to Framework. But it only has 1.1m now
empty shoal
There may be a newer burn report. But not on my phone. The original token alloca...
So the treasury holds 1.5m tokens rn?
lone bough
So the treasury holds 1.5m tokens rn?
No. That’s the ORIGINAL allocation.
rustic hare
I also don't believe we should have the right to vote on everything. I see that becoming a massive mess and unworkable.
empty shoal
No. That’s the ORIGINAL allocation.
Wasn't that supposed to be higher? 1.8m?
lone bough
the treasury supposed to have 1.85m token.
minus 333k sold to Framework. But it ...
Technically the launchpad tokens that did not get used in the balancer sale were never officially added to the treasury tokens.
lone bough
Wasn't that supposed to be higher? 1.8m?
It was the 1.5m ILV plus a little more than 300,000 ILV that was not sold in the balancer sale. But ⤴️
A technicality really
empty shoal
It was the 1.5m ILV plus a little more than 300,000 ILV that was not sold in the...
From what I've read ppl assumed it's added to treasury as it should have been
lone bough
Yes
empty shoal
Tnx for clarify peli
So the 300k tokens are in fact missing, just technically not from treasury
lone bough
So the 300k tokens are in fact missing, just technically not from treasury
It’s not missing. It was apparently used to extend the team tokens. And there are many tokens currently vesting in the vesting contract that were not originally allocated for that purpose. The assumption is that those are now team tokens.
empty shoal
It’s not missing. It was apparently used to extend the team tokens. And there ar...
So the dao currently has 1.8m tokens at disposal, just not all under treasury?
Why has something as important as this been left to assumptions
lone bough
So the dao currently has 1.8m tokens at disposal, just not all under treasury?
Jaganite provided accurate numbers. There is not 1.8m ILV under DAO control anymore.
lone bough
Why has something as important as this been left to assumptions
🤷
This page shows the wallets that now/will own/control the different tokens in the vesting wallet. The site has some issues with duplicating the data for some tokens (primarily the 250,000+83,333=333,333 now vesting for Framework). But it’s still helpful.
empty shoal
So 10m$ or more went into bonuses. If 100 employees were given bonuses, that's 100k per person. Not bad for an unreleased product
drowsy shadow
So 10m$ or more went into bonuses. If 100 employees were given bonuses, that's 1...
I wish XD
rustic hare
Maybe we need an explainer again on what the DAOs parameters are, in regard to community knowledge and limitations of what we are and are not in control of. A rolling FAQ would be great so people can easily find the answers. It would avoid conjecture and misinformation.
A town hall or an explainer about tokens would be great too.
It's a recurring topic as many people are coming back in and asking the same questions, along with existing members continually asking about it and not being satisfied with the answers.
valid falcon
Maybe we need an explainer again on what the DAOs parameters are, in regard to c...
Shared with CSC - we have a Townhall in a week which will cover things we have been working on behind the scenes [FAQ, Governance Info, Governance Ideas (new channels) and future plans]
rustic hare
Shared with CSC - we have a Townhall in a week which will cover things we have b...
Brilliant 😊 ❤️
swift ibex
Crystal
One of the benefit of having a dao is to avoid paying corp tax
Ok let's keep it and I'm not even kidding. End of discussion
jagged plank
Ok let's keep it and I'm not even kidding. End of discussion
I can close this then?
swift ibex
I can close this then?
No.
jagged plank
Lol
tame pilot
swift ibex
Bring back reactions
jagged plank
Jeremy is relax
quiet sand
your concern can be solved by two things that doesnt need the dissolution of the...
Like slashing their ILV rewards?
arctic dew
Like slashing their ILV rewards?
Pretty sure he meant his proposal => https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1133405185495023616
quiet sand
Pretty sure he meant his proposal => https://discord.com/channels/76034489820066...
Ah ok, thank you.
tame pilot
chrome agate
I see your concern but I don't belive dissolving Dao is a solution. I chat with people from the team a fair amount. It seems most are happy with the communication and progress. Let's give them time and let them work out some issues. Believe 🙂
rustic hare
I see your concern but I don't belive dissolving Dao is a solution. I chat with ...
We can do this.
knotty moss
Afaik DAO is more interesting for legal reasons
tame pilot
tax and legal reason
white grove
There are legal and tax reasons it is how it is but I have to say I wish it wasn't. I know that's an unpopular opinion.
We have had some excellent people on council, however I personally don't like the insecurity of it. I invested based on the team and their ideas. I feel that things can be changed so quickly from what was first portrayed. It doesn't make me feel overly confident in investing. I would have invested more if it were fully run by the founders and the community gave opinions but made no decisions. Democratic process doesn't always yield the most successful results.😬
It is what it is though and I am still hoping for the best outcome. 🙂
lone bough
There are legal and tax reasons it is how it is but I have to say I wish it wasn...
Without a security there is insecurity
tame pilot
There are legal and tax reasons it is how it is but I have to say I wish it wasn...
yea DAO run gaming company is the worst
as an investors u dnt want gamers to make the decisions
especially when its pro gamers who make them
usually dnt appeal to the broader market
but it is what it is, just have to balance things
white grove
but it is what it is, just have to balance things
I'm concerned about people who know nothing having a vote. For example, if there is anything to vote on regarding autobattle game play, I should not be allowed to have a vote, yet, here we are where my thumbs up or down counts for as much as someone who plays autobattlers.
white grove
Without a security there is insecurity
This could lead me into a political discussion which I don't think I am allowed to have on here. 😂
tame pilot
I'm concerned about people who know nothing having a vote. For example, if there...
and the next council epoch can reverse the IIP
white grove
and the next council epoch can reverse the IIP
Yup.
Lack of government stability is not conducive to investment.
Although, I guess depending what is passed that it could be a bonus that things are reversible.
tame pilot
imagine every 6 months
white grove
No imagination required.
timber rain
As someone that believes every single individual here adds value in their own way I could never approve of dissolving the DAO.
I've seen those that claim to know better or see themselves as "experts" wreck too many web2 games to fall into that trap. Sure, I'll place more weight on the opinion of someone experienced in a topic but good ideas can come from anyone.
DAOs are not perfect but they have the potential to offer balance between communities and devs. Without it we're just another Diablo 4
rich depot
As someone that believes every single individual here adds value in their own wa...
what it's wrong with Diablo 4?
timber rain
what it's wrong with Diablo 4?
Without going into great detail they made decisions during development that are causing a lot of frustration for players now. Had the community been involved from the start (like illuvium) perhaps these issues could have been resolved before release.
The issue I'm referring to is inventory/storage management for those that know the game.
tame pilot
who knew this was a good idea
agile ginkgo
who knew this was a good idea
Just cause people have conflicting ideas doesnt mean governance isnt working. Actually its the opposite. People are realizing that there are other options and some ideas dont align with what they want their representatives to be taking a position of.
willow vigil
I am not fully against the DAO structure but the reason i support this with a 👍 is too many chefs spoil any recipe... before any community involvement i was fully sold on this projects ideas and vision from just keiran, grant and aaron. They havent even been given a chance to launch their vision in full and the government that are meant to be running this ship are bickering like kids on a playground throwing names at each other... i think the community should have a say in development and not creation. The game does not exist yet therefore I am of the probably unpopular opinion that community shouldn't have this much of a say this soon... let the brilliant visionaries at the top build the core, give them all the power till its out there and conceived. Then bring back a DAO style structure when its time to develop the game. Stability brings better quality investments... if any of the haters got a whif of some of the dissaray... like votes of no confidence and forcing core contributors to loan equity to the project if xyz happens... im sorry but the gen pub are nat capable of co-operating to agree on building mechanics or structures in games... but they are 100% reliable for dramas. I want the dramas away from the steering wheels of my investment thanks! 😉
Theres even a point to say its a waste of money... the council take a good chunk of cash each year in salaries! Couldnt that really just be localized in a much smaller "hired" team rather than elected youtubers... and what happens whene a way more popular youtuber comes over and decided to run, one with 1m followers or more? Is it just them and their communities game after that as they get dozens of bonus votes from the popular vote?
