ICCP Illuvitars Wave 2 Sale Adjustments - Final Revision

[strange void]

After much discussion both internally and within the community, the <@&1107754344499122206> recommends the following adjustments to the Wave 2 Illuvium Beyond sale. Feedback and votes appreciated.

*Note that the IMC will be going over this position in detail and answering questions from the community during this event: https://discord.com/events/760344898200666112/1128395093221593240

Proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D7Re07J01RXtzHFZf9cMfcm2lJGVsjy3rOwuhn7d9H8/edit?usp=sharing

[tulip tiger]

I get it. If we are not doing a big marketing push for mainstream yet since open beta is not released, it makes sense to select the above pricing strategy and cater to existing players. It will help avoid leaving money on the table. I'm ok with that.

I'm also a fan of slightly adjusting Tier 1-4 drop rates and maintaining T5s, Ophisto will be hard to pull and hopefully as valuable as Rhampfyre, and normies such as myself will pull a wider variety from D1sks opened. I understand that no drop rate modifications will be made for accessories and/or backgrounds which I think is a win and will favor current accessory owners.

I view all changes to alphas as positives. The big unanswered question is if they will be somehow visually distinct from Wave I alphas.

Out of curiosity, what was the basis for a 20% price reduction for standard (why not 25/50%)? I can imagine why no price reduction was needed for Megas.

Appreciate all the work!

[lyric echo]

Since the prices are being changed now, they should not be changed in future for consistency sake.

I can appreciate that these may be seeking a web3 audience only at these price points and someone can make the argument that if someone wants one cheap they can get one on the secondary or just the standard one but frankly this is going to end up an insanely niche product that 100-200 people are actively buying and collecting.

I know many people that are just completely done buying this product at these price points that would have been tempted to get a few in the $5 standard, $20 Mega price ranges (including myself) and frankly we're leaving money on the table and making the product niche for no reason, there is more money in volume than this madness.

Lets set some more reasonable pricing and never have to change it again (especially for a product that will be the only available digital product we sell until game launch)

**Recommendation:
$4-5 Standard
$20 Mega
With Alphas being either 1.5x or 2x more than normal ones **

That's all it had to be, but in its current state this proposal is just incredibly poor at Marketing our project in any way that's positive or meaningful and I hope it does not pass and is revised.

[weary wing]

visually distinct from Wave 1 alpha

This is ICCP-11 being voted in now by CSC. Post will be shared in Gov-News soon

#1129101473503002645 message

[tulip tiger]

Understood. Thanks

[scenic hatch]

"To provide a better experience, drop rates for tier 1 will be decreased, while tiers 2-4 will be increased. Tier 5 rates will be unchanged."

Could you expand on this a bit more please? Decreased by how much/increased by how much?

[final tartan]

I like keeping prices how they are/were.

What's the argument that we're not going to attract web2 people with this with $7.50 and $48 vs $4-5 and $20?
Already at current prices we see so so so many variations that are sub $1. I really don't think decreasing prices brings in more people.

Lets just keep current prices

[lyric echo]

doesnt bring in more people, just that when the game does go live and we have mainstream players if the product is priced better then some of the playerbase will also buy illuvitars and the volume of those sales at lower prices will far outweigh the total revenue from a small amount of diehard whale collectors at those prices, thats just my view though...

[devout lagoon]

With no data to support that claim, it seems rather irrelevant.
I could claim you alienate whales from web2 gacha games by lower prices as well, then we get simply stuck in anecdotals.

[final tartan]

I think you understate how many web2 people will spend $100s or even $1000s. People like there cosmetics. Idk maybe I'm wrong

[lyric echo]

on in game pfps?
on illuvials, skins and stuff sure...
depends, not everyone is a whale, but there are whales too

[final tartan]

Collections will provide cosmetic features. And more and more web2ers will become web3ers.

NFTs are just going to be higher value than normal cosmetics. Some gamers might hate that but when you add ownership and resale to an item, price is higher. It can't and won't stay the same.

[lyric echo]

I mean physical TCGs exist, they have ownership and can be re-sold and have in-game utility within that TCG game

NFTs are basically the same but you're saying should be arbitrarily sold at a higher price

I am ok if we disagree on this point, personally more interested in the volume that mass adoption will bring long term over catering to a small niche of whales only (and imo we also cater to whales also still and whales want plenty of normies to flex on, its no fun if everyone is a whale, not really a flex)

[modest laurel]

Within the Marketing Council I voted No on this proposal and I voiced my opinion during meetings and in chat but I want to share my main argument with the community. I do find the $7.50 price point with the new rarity changes attractive so that's good but with a price point of $48 for the mega I won't be "gambling" on mega disks to help me fill out my collection of t3-t5s I would rather play it safe and look on secondary for what I want. The DAO only gets 2% of my money for that secondary sale but if a mega disk was priced at a more attractive price point like $20-25 I would be more inclined to buy megas and "gamble" to get those t3-t5s which would give the DAO 100% of my money. Lower prices encourage more disk purchases which will end up making the DAO more money.

My argument has nothing to do with appealing to Web3 or Web2 but more about what I believe is the way to get more people to buy D1sk during the sale window.

[uneven timber]

I definitely wont be voting on this proposal until the townhall. Some of the pricing doesnt make sense to me. Regular standard disks and regular mega disks there is a 6.5X difference. With alpha standard and alpha mega disks there is 9.5X difference. Doesnt make sense to me. Also I hope to hear at the townhall some data that was used to come up with these numbers. my first impressions is that this missed the mark and I'm not sure where this project is heading. If its a premium nft project for web3 collectors, then just leave the prices where they were during wave 1 (alphas a little lower). if you want mass adoption with a lot discs being bought then prices need to be lower.

[weary wing]

@mossy flint @fading crow @graceful vector @safe shell @mystic jewel

You are were very active in the previous proposal discussion and want to be sure you see this and have a moment to share your comments! 😀

[tall garden]

I don't mean to sound harsh but this is genuinely how I feel about this wave 2 sale.

I bought land, I bought merch, I bought ILV and I bought wave 1 illuvitars. I'm not buying yet another secondary illuvium product before open beta regardless of the pricing or the structure of the sale.

[chrome wyvern]

This is a definite 'No' vote from me. Pricing like this is what Web2 players are going to see when coming into the project and they will continue believing in the (false) narrative that NFTs are just expensive scams and associate that with our name.

[safe cradle]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

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Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[broken stream]

My main contention with this revised proposal is the foundation on which you’ve built it. The target audience should not be limited to NFT collectors. This project was originally designed for all players, as a PFP project. While I love that it has gained a collection element to it, that does not mean that the barrier to entry should be so high.

Beyond the original intention of Illuvium Beyond the project has continued to be developed in a way that web 2 audiences would be attracted to. With in-game unlocks featuring soul-bound Arena and Overworld items such as emotes, skins, and battle boards; along with the implication by team members of a future TCG game from Illuvium Beyond.

Opening D1sks to get a complete collection of Wave 1 Illuvitars [ 1 of each available] cost me well over $4,000. Buying the most basic Illuvitars to get a full collection off secondary costs roughly $2,390.55 as of today. For a project that holds no utility currently this is worse than the entry point for some Web3 Games.

To me something similar to Illuvitars is the TFT battle pass. A TFT battle pass costs 1295 RP, equivalent to about $15. Similar to the in-game unlocks, players can gain emotes, battle board skins and PFPs. This process depends on you playing TFT to earn points to unlock those in-game rewards, but with only $15 you can unlock up to 43 different in-game assets.

Baseball card packs can range from $4 - $12 and provide roughly 16 cards per pack.

Now the benefit of web3 is these are assets we can sell once we’re done with the game, so a bit higher cost is understandable. This is why I have been in favor of the 4/20 pricing for standard and Mega disks.

Originally with Wave 1 pricing the justification was that the Alphas were there for the Whales and the Web3 NFT collectors, while the regular disks were for everyone else. If most people bought only one disk from the Wave 1 sale wouldn’t that tell you that you’ve priced them too high?

I agree with Vetemor when it comes to consistency. The narrative, the branding, the price needs to stay consistent and should be aimed at who we want our target audience to be, not adjusted for the only ones who happen to be here right now so we can squeeze the most amount of money out of them. This is especially true if the team has any hopes to add additional elements to Beyond in the future.

Illuvium is a business, a business that’s goal is to turn a profit, but you can do that without pricing out the web2 players. If Illuvium Beyond continues to grow in utility it would make sense that the price could rise with it, but as those utilities do not yet exist it should not be priced for what might happen but rather what is.

[chrome wyvern]

That's a good point you bring up about the TFT battle pass as the features gained in that are very similar to what the future features for Illuvitars are. And with TFT being our main competition keeping things on a more similar pricing helps it feel familiar to a user which is key to onboarding them into our ecosystem

[topaz timber]

What do you mean by in game bonus

[vocal leaf]

I am uncertain about my stance on this proposal. On one hand, I recognize the expertise of the marketing council, as they have reviewed the statistics and gathered evidence that led them to this conclusion. On the other hand, the NFT market is relatively new, and our position within it is unique. We must consider whether extracting funds from the web3 crowd now or prioritizing a lower barrier for entry for the future web2 crowd would be more beneficial. At this point, I am undecided, and I will reserve further comment until I have heard the marketing team's perspective during the upcoming town hall. If you hold a strong opinion on this proposal, I beg of you to participate in the event, ask questions, and engage in the discussion. While I am leaning towards a negative stance on this proposal, I am open to listening to the opinions of the experts and encourage the rest of the community to do the same before reaching a final conclusion.

[final tartan]

I just don’t think we need to pay so so so much attention to the “web2” audience we hope to bring with this aspect of illuvium.

This is very much a web3 product. Web3 products will be more expensive than web2 products because of ownership. They also will be more expensive than something like trading cards because they are a lot more liquid. It’s way harder to buy and sell physical trading cards than NFTs. Also these aren’t trading cards. They are PFPs that can unlock both soul bound and NFT based rewards that might have a TCG attached layer. This type of thing should have a higher price point IMO. $9 and $45 is already plenty low, again IMO.

This will be my last comment on it, as I don’t think it’s that big of deal to lower to something like $4/$20. I’ll probably buy less but it is what it is.

I just want to stress that we are a web3 game and we should embrace that.

[chrome wyvern]

People really need to stop associating Illuvitars with a possible TCG in order to justify their reasoning.

[tall garden]

Agreed

[last wasp]

At this point. This is the 3rd thread on this topic. And I'm not seeing anything from this thread included: #1117391394655449178 , here's a great summary. Credit goes to @jade pollen https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YNL1LGSmqoP02AUyRCHQHTFRVTCHKb_Lf0U1ncvZ2HY

I'm not sure how we got here. There was so much feedback. And it's like quite a lot of it was disregarded and a new proposal pops up as "final".

How are we handling the wave 1 buyers who paid 2-4x prices and got the same stuff as wave 2.

If we're pretending this didn't happen and reducing the pricing just cuz. I'm better of voting no on this.

I'm against shagging the previous supporters of the project in hopes of catering to people who didn't buy. If prices go down a retroactive plan should be implemented to bring first wave in line with future ones.

I'm totally against pricing items in ETH. In 2 weeks we might need another proposal... And for sure we'll need a change in this by the time wave 3 comes around.

[mystic jewel]

My personal opinion is that this propisal makes no sense. I agree with most things Fight4ETH and Artemis said.

I don’t know where is this “only for web3” coming from. If I though we are going in that direction I would have spent a lot less money on Illuvitars and I plan to spend a lot less.

This proposal is pretty much: let’s stay at 8-9k collectors and let’s try to get as much money from them. And we’ll change the pricing again in a few months, no worries.

With no new collectors, all of the other collections will only drop in prices as no one is interested in them.

I'm exaggerating of course. But it seems that way.

With this proposed pricing it’s really hard that I’ll buy any D1SKs, maybe a few to open them with my girlfriend as it’s fun. But for collecting? No way. Alphas? No way. There will maybe be decent pricing on secondary and I can choose what I like.

But my biggest takeaway and question mark is this random pricing? Okay I get that with different drop rates maybe Mega D1SKs now worth more. But how in hell did we get to that difference between Alpha and non-Alpha??? Why is Alpha Mega worth that much more then Regular Alpha?

tl;dr
If we want to get as much money from current community and not grow collectors this proposal is I guess okay.
I think much less D1SKs will be sold (something we are trying to avoid) and lot less people will be involved.
Pricing doesn’t make much or any sense.

[last wasp]

Why are we diluting alpha tag so easily? This proposal wants to make alphas without limit? How is this catering to web3 collectors? Just don't touch it. Unless there is a clear plan how to bring all waves prices in line I'll be against this.

[foggy dust]

Illuvitars unlock all the skins you are referring to from the albums. I won't go into detail but illuvitars will be about collecting skins and cosmetics for pvp more than the pfps

[vital rivet]

I thought illuvitar was for mass adoption and we are targeting web2. But I see here a web3 target.

Illuvium is in an echo chamber (crypto games) within an echo chamber (crypto).

Data must show that there is minimum adoption. That most of illuvitars owners are ilv staker and owners. And the growth curve of owner without the echo system is very limited. GameStop as a good example attracted 800 new wallets. Wallet measurement is a bit flawed but thats what we have and should look at.

So I just want to understand what’s the target and objective of illluvitars.

Is it expansion ? Mainstream ? And how those decision align with target and objective.

Maybe I’m too corporate as what I’m asking is typical of a business case..

But genuinely to understand more the direction taken and see if it match, I agree with @uneven timber pricing needs a clear target.

And I also agree with the very interesting question of @topaz timber … what are the in-game bonuses… we already taking the way of P2W before having a game lol .. or is it cometics ? I mean « soul bounding » sound like a kick ass name, but can mean everything and nothing. Shouldn’t it be clarified what we are talking about here ?

Last question: why specifically 15th august ? Why wait so long ? Why another wave before game is out? I’m sure you’ll get those questions.

[lyric echo]

what happened to land owners and blueprints?

why are we promising more future in-game stuff to people that have already been delayed so much, just give the community some value now, we dont have to extract, the difference barely gunna affect the runway either way, idk, im just not a fan of the whole thing, im fine if we disagree

[tranquil cosmos]

Examples of In-Game Collection Rewards

• Emote packs
• Album Skin
• Blast (Doka Illuvial Line - Doka Punch)
• Battle Board Skin (Tier Zero Collection - Doka Dojo Battleboard Skin)
• Drone Skin (Party Slides Accessory Line - Rave Bach Drone Skin)
• Suit Skins (Warpaint Accessory Line - Warpaint Camo Jumpsuit Skin)

We have a Landing Page and PDF with Art Assets / Concepts we'll be sharing ahead of Set 1 Wave 2 launch (wip)

[foggy dust]

They are all different products. They will all have their cosmetic role to play

[lyric echo]

sure 🤷‍♀️

[foggy dust]

Since you've said it I'll go deeper. Aaron has taken a look at all the stats. When u really break down the numbers the pricing structure starts to better reflect league of legends. If u.purchase x on d1sks u get y cosmetic items and its relatively inline from what I can see

If we want to go cheaper than the most successful video game franchise of my generation in terms of revenue from cosmetic items then sure

[chrome wyvern]

We aren't Riot

[lyric echo]

not gunna die on this hill

[mystic jewel]

So we decided that Illuvitars are basically complicated way to spend money on skins?

[vital rivet]

@foggy dust

But what’s the baseline ?

Video games? for illuvitars dont seems accurate.
Stickers pack? Illuvitars is way overpriced and we don’t have player base so it would be too cheap.
card game ? Illuvitars isn’t a card game so I don’t know

And I mean without the usual promise of « a card game is coming in 2028 blablabla »

[strange void]

For me, if the target demographic is web2 and the goal for Illuvitars is to be the top of funnel product for newcomers. Then it should be cheaper.

If the target demographic is web3 and meant to be a premium upsell once you’re already in the ecosystem, then it’s priced appropriately and the data supports the revision.

My original proposal of $5/$20 was under the assumption that Illuvitars are meant to be top of funnel. It's been made clear that the goal is for the games themselves to be top of funnel; and Illuvitars then are premium upsells.

[tranquil cosmos]

Collection Game with an added bonus of unlocking Soul bound Rewards by completing Milestones & Collections.

It's an optional premium experience, with the target being Collectors.

...and even still my personal opinion is this should be priced between $6.50 and $24.95 (for Non-Alpha)

[lyric echo]

yeah I have no idea what thats about and the reasoning for it, to justify the pricing because we so badly need to raise more money right now in exchange for in-game promises

remember Kieran admonishing other projects for doing the same and now its standard procedure

once again, sure if thats what marketing deems best, I'm not a fan, i've voiced it, not gunna die on this hill, its up to the community really, if the sentiment says no then community sub-council wont allow it further and it will have to be edited, ill live w it either way

[modest laurel]

All these things are soul bound and cannot be sold which to me just targets the web 2 player and not the Web3 NFT collector that this proposal is trying to target so I don't get this argument. It will encourage secondary sales which is good but not so much disk sales. In my opinion

[lyric echo]

top funnel would be $2, $8

$5/$20 is a great middle ground between web3 and web2 and wont need to be lowered when this game does shift further web2 down the line

[tranquil cosmos]

👆

[lyric echo]

lol didnt even realise that, who is coming up with this stuff

[tranquil cosmos]

Individual & Community Stretch Goal Rewards are NFTs.

Milestone & Collection Rewards are soul bound and are available to the player as and when their Albums are completed.

[mystic jewel]

I have no idea why we want to make Illuvitars premium web3 project for premium collectors. In my mind Illuvitars are the easiest way to become more global with kids collecting them and exchanging them and so on. A “game” for everyone. But I guess we are in web3 and we need money so that’s not an option.

[strange void]

Like I said- I was one of the first to advocate for $5/$20, so I don’t have a problem with it. The purpose of this proposal was to try to find middle ground, because $5/$20 was rejected by the council. $5/$20 is just not a pricing model grounded in any fact or data, and for that reason it makes it challenging to advocate for.

[tranquil cosmos]

I don't think that's the perspective the IMC are coming at this from.

They're balancing the pricing between $7.50 Standard (Non-Alpha) and a Top-end which caters to the Whales that want to guarantee high chance of rarity and save themselves time unboxing 5 x more D1SKs via Standards

[lyric echo]

oh those rewards are for completed albums, that actually makes sense since you could complete it and later you could end up selling them and no longer having a complete album, makes sense, no complete album, no skin

[chrome wyvern]

Agree with Vetemor
You also have to remember that just because you intend for it to be one way doesn't make it so. People will see these Illuvitar sales on the market before anything else because we have no other product until Open Beta is released. Do you want people to assosiate the Illuvium name with expensive NFT profile pictures considering our target audience for the actual game are players that are used to spending $0 to play the game (TFT)

[strange void]

The position of the majority is that the top of funnel game for everyone is the games themselves.

[tranquil cosmos]

Yep

[lyric echo]

thx

[vital rivet]

To be honest you cant target web2 without a game.

From a gamer point of view it’s buying a profile pic at the price of a full game, 6-12 months before release.

Work with Diablo. Not with a IP no one knows about.

[tranquil cosmos]

Yeah I'm in agreement.

If we are the pioneers in the space we claim to be, we should lead by example and bring NFTs to the masses not follow the NFT PFP Herd cashing in on their communities.

[mystic jewel]

So the story of everybody collecting Illuvitars before the Wave 1 is actually a lie because that’s not the aim for them?

If I knew we were going in this direction I would have never bought any D1SK as I’m not even close to premium collector.

[chrome wyvern]

Correct. We aren't Blizzard. We aren't Riot. We can't pretend to operate like they do and use their same strategies.

[foggy dust]

They aren't actually soulbound since u can sell the illuvitars but it's definitely more complex than current web 2 systems

[strange void]

That’s why we aren’t targeting web2 with Wave 2, and why the pricing is intended to reflect the behavior of Web3 participants.

[tranquil cosmos]

That's a good point sorry, I should use different wording

[chrome wyvern]

Wave 2 is what people are going to see when they hear about our ecosystem and games.

Are we just not going to try and gain more users during the entire Wave 2 sale?

[mystic jewel]

Maybe we get another 500 collectors with another promo sale….

[foggy dust]

@tranquil cosmos will the illuvidex and albums etc eventually be found inside the game launcher? Think riots RP store

[tranquil cosmos]

Correct yes

[foggy dust]

Hmmmm the cross pollination is deeper than I expected. It doesn't change the fact we don't have data to back up lower price points but there is certainly so many things at play

[vital rivet]

The thing that all those iips and discussions and décision need to start doing is to give context, target, objective. Give the why to people.

All iip and changes, have always been knowing very little about the full picture and the implications of decisions. This one is similar.

You can’t expect to advertise the project as AAA and have décision feels like it’s taken by 5 guys in a garage.

For me I read this I’m ok. I see comment seeing things differently and I’m ok with them. All angle are good to hear. And they exist because there isn’t enough substance to the changes.

« We looked at the number and that’s best »

« We looked at the date and 15/08 is best »

« Our target is a bit of web3, but not the web3 that spend 1000 eth on a ape, different than the game target that is web2, also different than land that is investors, but we price like this because seems good you know, something in between to maybe capture a bit of this and a bit of that if we can »

I mean … get a 1 pager for all projects components to define the vision and path to achievement. And have decisions align with this 1 pager.

No picking on you JP, just debating here.

[scenic cipher]

I think the main underlying question being discussed here is targeting web3 or web3 with Wave 2, the price proposal is just a proxy for that discussion

[foggy dust]

Its too bad we can't actually ask a Web 2 audience what they think.

[chrome wyvern]

The Web3 audience and our audience in particular is so small. We need Web2.

[tranquil cosmos]

I can say with confidence $48.00 for a D1SK isn't targetting Web2

[scenic cipher]

For sure

[mossy flint]

Thanks Ricky, I need some time to read it.

[safe shell]

I agree here. On other note, I would love to see the change in only pricing of normal mega d1sk from 48$ to around 30-40$ range to make it little more accessible for everyone...

[dense needle]

Depend what is the vision from illuvium studio. Im not sure its a good mix to have the same studio that build game and some speculative product as provided actually for web3 users...
Web3 part will create fear to onboard web2 to come play the actual game.. Just gonna write an idea/feedback tomorrow but that illuvitar product is a more big problem atm than just pricing it correctly...

[chrome wyvern]

Agree

[broken stream]

agree

[weak sluice]

Blizzard launches 2x priced collectors editions of products all the times as well as their main games. Same thing for Nintendo with Pokemon merch and theme parks and so forth as well as differently priced games. I don't think it's antithetical to the project to have differently targeted products. The specific question is for Illuvitars as a product itself. And it's totally fair to have different opinions on that.

[chrome wyvern]

We aren't them

They have massive brands and 30 year histories with millions of players.
On the other hand we are a brand new studio trying to onboard Web2 users to an NFT project when the current sentiment around the world is NFTs are garbage and overpriced.

[dense needle]

People that buying blizzard product are just fan that played years on their favorite game. Not sure we can compare to them.. they now just extract what they can to their fan base.

[dense needle]

Im all in to continue this product as a collectible album where people can complete it and speculate on it. But we are selling thoses card 50$ ? Imagine you can generate 1 illuvitar by illuvial from OW. Like if you was scanning your illuvial. And then it generate the illuvitar with different background/ rarity.
This way you dont sell disk from a define price. You just incentive people to capture the much illuvial from the game, you onboard them. And then you can play with that album..

[thorny oasis]

I just think prices should reflect basic supply and demand dynamics

who are these NFTs geared for existing users or new users?

[hallow bronze]

While i respect the fact that someone finally admitted somewhere that the target audience for Beyond is not gamers.
(Truly i really appreciate this proposal being finally transparent about that).

I can't agree with the entire proposal.

I would support this proposal if it's rationale was pushing Illuvium towards our goals rather than to what we criticized other projects for. It is important to remember like @broken stream and @lyric echo pointed that a company's branding is not something we can divide in 2 groups. A branding is an entire aura that englobes all of the company's actions.

@chrome wyvern also makes a good point in the fact that we are not Blizzard or Pokémon. Our branding and demand to our products are nothing compared to them. Our strategy needs to be mindful of that fact.

We need consistency in our pricings but also in our decisions. If Illuvium is meant to be a GAME FIRST, that happens to include crypto elements, our pricings and decisions should reflect that.

[tranquil cosmos]

Agree @hallow bronze

We are either targeting the Web2 mainstream or not.

We are too small and too new to risk mixed messaging.

Better to go ALL-IN on converting Web2, led by a clear mission statement and principles

[scenic horizon]

Skins should only stay in IZ please 🙏🙏

[hallow bronze]

💯

[lyric echo]

Amen🙏

[foggy dust]

I can appreciate this sentiment. And I have seen it expressed by many. As long as we are also clear that this will harm revenue from beyond in the short term and possibly long term given the web 2 audience will likely focus on the overworld/pvp 99% of the time. I definitely acknowledge that it isn't necessarily a bad thing, the community seems clear that branding in this case is more important and that's definitely a fair viewpoint.

Much like Kieran said I'm not convinced $20-25 is more paletteable than $50. It feels just as steep to a web 2 audience in a lot of ways

[tall garden]

How does IZ fit this idea of being all in on web2?

20k plots selling for thousands of dollars doesn't get anymore web3.

[lusty minnow]

Wondering the same, like t4‘s were sold for round about 36k - for real?

[tranquil cosmos]

Fair point, I guess I was thinking Arena/Overworld as attracting Web2 and Beyond as that optional extra

Fair point though

[last wasp]

I'm still watching the town hall, so this might be a bit out of place, but I didn't see leaderboard discussion in the proposal.
I feel like the beyond product is turning out like a whale subscription service. Having the top 100 holders spend every wave to preserve their rewards.

And it'll be near impossible to be on that leaderboard if you miss a wave, so in like 6 months time, there'll be no point in aiming for it.

Maybe there should be a model in which there is a leaderboard for the current going wave and a total one and both of those get rewards. So this way we incentivize long term holders and allow new people to drop in and compete.

[chrome wyvern]

I think that is a separate issue for another proposal. I do see what you are saying and agree though

[foggy dust]

To be fair, like Artemis said, it uses Dutch Auction, kinda wish we had similar systems for Beyond tbh

[strong barn]

if you lower wave 2 prices, isnt it going to devalue Wave 1 ?

if Wave 2 doesnt sell well, will you lower Wave 3 price?

illuvitar weekly volume is 3eth

time limit alpha sounds like a liquidity grab. GL tho

instead of promising more value to hype the Wave 2 sale, wouldnt it be wiser to provide more value to existing collection, THEN sell more jpegs

[tall garden]

I wasn't going to get that involved in this discussion as I feel wave 2 suffers from a timing issue above all else but I'll throw my 2 cents in

If we genuinely wanted illuvium beyond to be a web2 focused product it should have launched with wave 1 after open beta. As it is now it's too late. Prices for completing the whole collection are already out of range for web2. We might get a few web2 gamers buying the odd pfp off the illuvidex but the ones buying D1sks will be web3 degen speculators. It's a whale game ultimately and illuvium should focus on farming those whales imo.

[last wasp]

I'm trying to look at this from a third person perspective. Imagine this.

Scenario 1. Your friend is an investor in illuvium. You see how they spend a few thousand dollars per wave to open mostly common items and maybe take a loss. You feel like your friend is being milked each wave.

What makes you want to jump in into this situation, so that you'll have a chance to bleed value for something?

Imagine another scenario.
Scenario 2. A game dev in web2 like Larian(for example) gives free upgrade to people who support the game early. Gives extra content for free. Launches their product ahead of schedule. Would you want to be part of that?

I'd argue that the second scenario will make more people want to be part of such community.

So what can we do about it? Illuvitars should feel like a homage to current community. They should feel like they're giving us more value than we're spending. This should exclude artificial scarcity created by overpricing stuff. It's not like we're filling the safety pool with profits. In that case wouldn't it be better if we use this product to expand our community? We know that in web3 even free mints make money due to royalties. So in the long run the success of NFTs relies on sustainable volumes. Which in turn relies on growing and/or sustainable community.

How should we aim to grow this community. I'd look back to scenario 2. Why not give away some disks for free. To let's say discord users, twitter followers, token stakes and holders. Land owners. Existing illuvitar owners. And with this many free disks. A lot cheaper disks prices make sense. Like $2 a pop for a standard. And it will be possible for people to actually fight for the leaderboard. Not just top 100 whales. But people can be on it for a couple thousand dollars. And volume will drive profits.

[foggy dust]

Normally I'd agree but there will be reasons to complete the album beyond the leaderboard. No pun Intended. Things like new battleboards, emotes and other cosmetics will be unlocked from the individual collections. Which is reason enough to complete them. Also if we expand the leaderboard at some point and change the distribution structure that helps too. There are lots of levers to pull to make.jt.more Web 2 If that's the path the community wants.

[last wasp]

There's a reason why battle passes work. They have a free track and a paid track. If you don't get people engaged with it in the first place, how would they know if they like and want to pay for it.

Here's a fun comparisson BAYC sold 10k NFTs for $200 dollars each. They made 1.2mil ETH in volume. We sold 20k Alpha mega disks for $250. And our whole volume (not only alpha mega disks) is 400 ETH. Having a bigger price tag is irrelevant. What matters is community building.

[strong barn]

so far, ILV is good at selling NFTs and bad at maintaining floor price

[last wasp]

The falling floor prices just indicate bad initial prices.

[tall garden]

That's fair, it'll be interesting to see what effect rewards have.

I still feel this is a known vs unknown debate though. We know web3 will speculate silly money on pfps. We don't know if web2 will ever warm up to the idea. Even with all those levers

[foggy dust]

My concern is more with the future. It's hard to price it higher later. Imagine adding so much different utility where they have a true value far above what they are at right now. But as you said it's a game of unknowns

[queen fractal]

Why do we want to price it higher in the future? Wont the illuvidex / Market dictate the price of individual illuvitars? Are we envisioning that we "left money on the table" in a situation where our d1sks maintains the same amount of purchases but at lower price?

Wont that be an issue of value perceived for Beyond rather than a failure on the part of correct pricing? Ultimately, this falls whether or not Beyond is for which audience and considering the reactions of the community here its clear where theyre leaning towards.

[foggy dust]

Its more a leaving money on the table type thing. You make some fair points and its hard to judge but maximising revenue isn't unimportant

[mystic jewel]

So basically it’s more important to collect as much money from the current community rather then trying to expand the community and earn a bit less in the process?

[queen fractal]

I agree and considering this proposal had web 3 in mind and priced it for maximum revenue a shift in web 2 mindset would necessitate a change in pricing with that audience in mind but still maximizing revenue.

It's delicate balance of pricing the value proposition of beyond with the target audience and I'm sure the MSC can pivot to address this correctly.

[foggy dust]

If we priced the d1sks at 1$ right this moment the community will not expand. I'm very confident in that for wave 2 at least. It's more about pricing it correctly. Considering all the utility and potentially future utility going into Illuvium Beyond, comparatively to Web 2 products in the gaming space I see this as similarly priced.

What we really need to do is be less arbitrary about what we change the price to. Currently the data doesn't support a major price shift. And finding an appropriate comparison to be equal to Web 2 games is near impossible.

[foggy dust]

If its more about brand and ethos there's nothing wrong with that. As much as people talk about illuvium beyond being a 'cash grab' they fail to respect the power of revenue.

Firstly it gives all current and future investors confidence in the success of Illuvium. It ensures we can justify the continuation of the product, as much as its a sunk cost in one sense, it takes artists hundreds of hours to produce illuvitars, which is a labour cost. Lastly revdis is arguably the single greatest crypto marketing tool to exist. If Illuvium is generating enough revenue to.pump the Ilv token. Not only will 10x more crypto people see illuvium generally speaking. They have 10x more money to spend on illuvium than most web 2 gamers, the mainstream media and other news outlets all catches it and Illuvium trends into the sunset. The success of Illuvium will.be driven by more than just gamers. Everything has a role to play

I want to maximise the success of Illuvium and uphold the ethos and ways illuvium seeks to differentiate itself. However I can definitely respect that these two may be mostly mutually exclusive for this particular product. We will have to make a choice

[mystic jewel]

So we have decided to ditch “pricing for the next 10 years” and change our vision and pricing for each wave because “data” doesn’t support price shift for Wave 2.

I have no idea how are we going to get any revenue and rise into the sunshine with Wave 2 with this pricing?

Let’s talk theoretically… How much money can we earn from Wave 2 with currently proposed pricing?

[dense needle]

Hello, Since i read a lot of discussions that happen around illuvitar, and the townhall there was yesterday about it. I think the feeling is that the product is currently separating 2 populations. Web2 & web3. And I feel that's not good to have to choice one of the two way.
I wrote an idea to make a bridge between the 2 populations and how the illuvitar could be "discovered" in a more global perspective than just sell a product and define a good price.
If you could take a look and give constructive feedback about an other way to manage the problem ?
https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1129360503521673246

[mystic jewel]

Also, no one even tried to explain why the pricing for Mega is so different to pricing of Standards when comparing Alpha and non-Alpha

[strong barn]

id like to hear from beyond whales tbh. @fading crow ?

[graceful vector]

I must say I feel a bit sad for the lack of a clear vision for the beyond product, it feels like there are 3 games and beyond.
Fiddling around numbers to cater some discontent loud voices and changing the narrative of the target audience to be web3 players doesn't sit well with me. We were all web2 players before we became web3 and the same will happen with every new gamer that joins this ecosystem. All this dilemma of web2 vs web3 players doesn't really make sense to me. How many $$ do web2 players spend on skins?? It's insane! So the argument that web3 players have 10x more cash to spend doesn't seem accurate. What I would say is that web3 gamers already know this involves some speculation and they are betting not on something that they'll be rewarded instantly but investing in something that will come in the near future. All web3 gamers currently are just web2 gamers with vision for the technology that's to come and will revolutionize the gaming world we all know.

Other than that I would like to point out 2 things. As much as we would like a stable price for this product set for life such won't be possible due to volatility nature of crypto, heck I even wonder what would happen when ETH is pumping like crazy during a 3 month wave, would we adjust prices mid wave or are we letting disk prices oscilate with ETH? This can lead to some wild pricing in the future.

The other point I didn't see much discussion on is the date itself. I would say more than fiddling with the numbers which I personally don't like because I think wave 1 was a success during what was the longest crypto bear market we have ever seen. What we need is to attract more players to the beyond world. How? We need to release pvp before wave 2 and show some skins/emotes already available through the wave 1 collection or the gamestop collection. Being able to bash some emotes on other players faces will be huge for adoption. "How come that guy has emotes and I don't?", "Oh what's this beyond thing?" and down the rabbit hole they go.
Regarding pricing and changing % chance for some tiers. I just ask why? I can get the pricing discussion but now we are changing the % drop as well? Without even letting set 1 end??? The less changes there are the better! These changes are only feeding the need to say wave 1 was different.

This games is poised to get mass adoption and that's what we gotta work with.

[mystic jewel]

Something similar already happened in Wave 1 with ETH pumping quite a bit. The price changed drastically.

[last wasp]

We're not kidding ourselves that we're making the bank with illuvitars, right? So the goal of illuvitars should be bringing people to our ecosystem, that will sustain the DAO.

[strong barn]

what people

retail wont come unless its the bull market

they wont come for $50 gacha to get pfp for unreleased nft game

[last wasp]

Give people beta codes. Give them merch discount. Expand the leaderboard. And airdrop this stuff around. Reduce the mint price or even make it free based on discord level and twitter engagement.

[strong root]

Reading a few posts in here, it's not a pfp Project, it's a "gamified" Version of a Battle Pass.

Seeing that there are different variations of skins to get, even more than in IZ, depending on what collection is completed, being able to possibly buy them for a few bucks in secondary, makes me as a landowner kind of salty.

Just "Kind of salty" because i'm very layed back... I'm sure if other landowners See that, they go enrage Mode.

It's will also Kind of Setting price rails for skins in General, before open Beta. Don't Like that either

[vital rivet]

I just listened a bit of the townhall published by vetemor on YouTube.

Seems Kieran idea of illuvitars is full blast web3 « only » and web2 « maybe later »

But seems a lot here want to lower price to try adoption.

I don’t belive changing prices of waves influence prices of other waves. Magic sold more of subsequences editions of their cards, didn’t influence the prices of the first editions as the quantities are finîtes and can’t be printed anymore.

I tend to agree that web3 is the target until there is a game. Giving a lot of value because very limited amount of quantities available. While when web2 is the target the price should go down to 1$ to attract gamers. Stickers style.

But again it’s my view on illuvitars, seeems the team and councils don’t have a clear vision for the product, that’s bad reactive thinking.

In the end, I belive trying to design something to capture web2 + web3 is a mistake. Web3 population is interested by money. Web2 population is interested by fun. (That’s also why I think illuvium zéro is trying to force investors into being gamers, but hats another topic)

[mystic jewel]

But if current idea is only web3, that basically means we are only selling to existing collectors as I don’t see anyone else coming to Illuvitars now. And not everybody will be buying again.

So Wave 2 will have less buyers and those buyers will spend less….? Why have Wave 2 at all then?

If we price now for the future, we won’t get a lot more new collectors, but we will get some, they will also learn a lot about the games and will be here for Open Beta….

[vital rivet]

Right now illuvitars is 3 years late for web3 and 2 years early for web2 …

The only thing that should be looked at is owner wallet categorize by ilv stakers / land owner / illuvitars only

[strong barn]

i hope the perks of beyond stays within the beyond game. if we give more perks outside of beyond, land owner should demand more perks outside of fuel and blueprints

[strong root]

As i understand it, thats exactly the Plan, giving out Ranger skins, Mozart skins, battleboard skinns, emotes.... Pretty mich every rewards is for the other Games of illuvium. Thats why i said it's Kind of illuviums battlepass system

And even tho, they will be soulbound, the worth of the collections Setting price rails of skins. Cause a gamer won't pay mich more for an nft skin than he has to pay for his soulbound skin

Besides that, probably every Arena player is going to buy battleboards skinn rather than a Ranger skinn... Battleboard skins aren't even in IZ loop

[vital rivet]

I like the idea of completing collection, allowing you to access specific a kind of battle boards and all that

Land owner should have that shit too

[dense needle]

love to see that nobody give a fuck about different perspective. I'm done with governance, just gonna play the game that provide us the team. Trying to voice as others gamers about all that illuvitar product that make no sense in a gaming studio if it keep going this way.

[strong root]

Maybe give people more time than 2h...🙃

[dense needle]

we let 2 weeks to get a "FINAL REVISION" than more people give a 👎 at the end. How is that even possible ?

[strong barn]

wave 1 and wave 2 have different illuvials right? If thats the case they shouldnt be priced differently because wave 1 is not a "first edition" they are just different illuvials. from my understanding the reason they are doing waves is because it takes time to do all illuvials. i think they are trying to find more value for beyond. i get the feeling that the illuvitar team has little experience in pfp projects

[strong root]

They either gave a fuck about community sentiment, or collected wrong data about community sentiment, i guess

[strong barn]

i hope this "battle pass" plan will not pass. its reaching

[strong root]

Well, Sound Like it already did... They will anounce the collections before wave 2 launches. So, to me it sounds Like it's done

[strong barn]

land owners spent $70m worth and only get "thank you" BPs? while beyond holders can win some ILV

and now "battle pass". get rekt

[strong root]

I feel IZ doesn't get mich love from the highest cc's... In the End it was keiran pushing for IZ and he stated he don't Like that Kind of Games, he just wanted to sell Lands. So i guess IZ lost their only supporter up there

Seeing Progress of IZ and seeing Progress of illuvitars Kind of Tells the story

Grant said in showcase that there won't be all skins ready for the Start. Actually just a few... But here we are spending hundreds of Artist hours on illuvitars

[strong root]

And the thank you bp's are not for buying Land, they are for playtesting IZ Alpha 😄

But yea, gona Stop that thing here now, not the correct channel

[vital rivet]

Lol we got fucked so hard on land 🤣 <= desperate crying

Illuvitars need to go back to basics, less is more

But a clear vision and plan (and a plan IS a clear list of steps to reach a goal) is needed

[last wasp]

Why do we have these discussion every step of the way on illuvitars? It was almost the same story before wave 1. But for land everyone was pleased. It went smooth. The problems with delays after it are another story.

I'm really curious, what's the difference here?

[leaden zodiac]

Same story for people that invested in balancer NFT's, then the promotional ones, ...

[weary wing]

I will say alot more conversation and valuable points have stemed from this proposal being posted, when compared to past iterations and the feedback that was shared on them.

I might not agree how some of the feedback has worded, but there is still merit to be found.

@dense needle - the main comment you share ties in with interoperability, why doesn't beyond stem from other game play (rewards)? Interesting but it's also a stand alone product, it offers "pack opening" to earn PFPs and a collectible aspect - not everyone playing overworld will be collecting - illuvial's main use case is PVP and Arena (building your teams)

@vital rivet - you bring up a very good point about Illuvium Zero and land owners - however, that is currently limited to 20k potential unique owners (i believe it is under 7k unique owners) and then a max of 100k when all the land is available. This is a a hard cap for now... vs. BEYOND that could have unlimited players with unprecedented growth, but not if only targeted to web3 players. But you are correct, rewording your point a little to drive it home, "WHY ARE WE NOT REWARDING (WITH IN GAME ASSETS/PERKS) INVESTORS IN OTHER SECTIONS OF ILLUVIUM?" - if we are not targeting mass adoption, why are we offering rewards to bring people over to Overworld and Arena/PVP - will it be the other way as well, we're D1sks are rewards for leaderboard in Arena/PVP bringing those players over to Beyond? 🤔

Anyways, based on feedback and alot of additional valid points made, plus the current 11 for / 31 against vote on this post, I can safely say my original thought of "Rejecting" this proposal still remains.

[mystic jewel]

I’ve listened to half of Town Hall and from what I understand from now on Illuvitars is a project for Web3 whales that are willing to spend a lot of money to collect collections in albums. So basically 100-150 people competing for the leaderboards.

My opinion is that if we go that route it’s really hard to ever change that as most people will never be able to collect any collections.

Now that I understand more about what’s the plan for Illuvitars I have a couple of questions mostly for @strange void and Ani.
You guys said a couple of times that we are free to check out the data that supports this decision so is that data shared anywhere?
Last proposal it was said that Mega price = 4 x Standard Price will work just fine and it’s confirmed by Perry and Aaron. And this time around it’s 6x (and 9x for Alpha) and you are saying that Parry once again confirmed that this will be the best. So what happened? And why is there difference between Alpha and non-Alpha multiplier?
It is said that this is the best way forward as we will earn the most money. Can you share what do we expect those numbers to be? We keep talking about 10k collectors like everyone will continue to buy more then before. How many of those accounts hold only like 1-2 illuvitars? How many of Gamestop holders are expected to buy more D1sks? What is the expected number of sales we’ll have?

[weary wing]

Last thought before work:

Will overworld leaderboard (points earned) or Arena leaderboard players be earning "soulbound" or "unique" illuvitars only available to them for placing in the top 10? Same said for people who hold the Illuvial lines - referring to the Pokedex in pokemon "I have captured/fused Atlas, Axon, and Axodon" completing the entries - do I earn a unique reward? Or only if I own the PFPs Illuvitars for them?

[strange grove]

This sentence is the main issue for me: "The target audience for this game primarily consists of NFT collectors, and we intend to position ourselves firmly within that market." While it may be true for wave 2, I thought the goal would be to set up a sale structure that does not have to be changed for future waves. After open beta, if the project will be successful at all, the target audience should shift from Web3 collectors to players of the main game, which should have a lot more Web2 audience. Therefore, this proposal is intending to build the house on the wrong foundation.

To add another point to this, I am a top 50 holder of illuvitars and have been in the top 50 of the leaderboard since week 1. And I am definitely not an NFT collector, in the sense of collecting NFTs from other projects. I very much intend to collect as many Illuvium NFTs as I can, but could not be bothered collecting random apes and whatnot from "normal" NFT PFP projects. I also have the sense that several other people on the leaderboard are in the same position.

Have someone surveyed the current biggest holders before making the assumption about the target audience? I have been in the beyond channel just about every day, and very rarely do I see anyone mention other NFT projects there. The only exception is Jaganite, who IS coming from the traditional NFT trader world and probably holds 0 illuvitars... So, if you want to make decisions based on data, I feel like this is a good place to start, you might be surprised about one of the core assumptions of the proposal...

We do have the wallets of the top 100 holders, perhaps a look through the NFT holdings of those wallets would give a decent data point for this?

[mystic jewel]

☝️

Very good point. We are aiming at web3 collectors. How many web3 collectors are in our community or are we expecting to get new web3 collectors?

[strange grove]

All these sounds great, except the suit skins. How did these come into the picture? What about the thousands of land investors who's primary reason to buy was that they will be the only ones able to create suit skins? I feel strongly against including suit skins as a reward here and would be surprised if there wasn't a strong backlash from land holders, who have been waiting a long time to be able to craft these. And now the team intends to give them away in other ways too? Why the other 5 mentioned here are not enough? Those could be unique rewards to beyond and suit skins couzld be unique to land owners, imo

[uneven timber]

couldnt agree more. There really needs to be some concrete plans put into place. What assests give you what? You cant sell something with a value propostion. Then before you can even use it, take away value from it but selling something else that does the same thing. Just seems wrong.

[hallow bronze]

smart reasoning there. I'd wish more people see this and think this way to be honest. but the "meta" is being afraid of "leaving money on the table" or "providing value for free"

"Because our community believes in the project and the fact that they keep spending is testimony of that fact"

[uneven timber]

Don't want to rehash everything that has been said because there is a lot of great points already made. I just want to add 2 things.

1- townhalls should be made after the proposal comes down. Don't like how the proposal came out hours before the townhall. It didnt give enough time for people to get their questions in for people that couldn't make the townhall. It also didnt allow enough time for people to adjust their schedules in case they wanted to listen or be active in the townhall.

2- I am very lost at what this project is. If this is a collectors game, there needs to be a huge reset on how this works imo. To Artemsis points. How much should it cost to get a full set? I spen over 10k and didnt get a full set. I guess I have bad luck. I got 0 rhampyres. Most of the tier 4 and tier 5 I only got 1 or 2. WHen all was said and done I needed to get 10 illuvitars off the market if I wanted to get all the illuvials with all the different expressions. So my main question is; How much should it cost in general for someone to get a basic set for the wave? Just one illuvial and not all the expressions?

personally I would like to see the catch rates increased for all higher tiers. Maybe even decrease the holo rates to make them more scarce. Allow more people to complete their sets. If there was 1000 rhampyress in existence. the whales would of still bought a lot of the rhamphyres, they just would of bought the rare rhamphyres (holo rhampyres or the basic rhampyre with the tier 5 background). But at least there would be more people with complete sets and probably feel better about the money spent. I know I didnt feel great about spending over 10k and not coming close to a complete set with all expressions.

[hallow bronze]

Both fair points. I'd like to emphasis on point 1. Townhalls should come 24-48h after the proposal is posted here. This way the community already knows what we're talking about, has the doc under their eyes to follow what's been said and can prepare questions in advance.

[mystic jewel]

Great point and great question I asked many times before: how much do we want the entire set to be worth?? Kieran saying it would be boring to have 14 Rhamphyers…. isn’t that why we have 3 expressions, 2 finishes, 5 tiers and 3 stages of backgrounds with different colors as well??

[vapid knot]

It was the intent to have the proposal public 48h prior to the town hall, unfortunately we got stuck on a few details that held the proposal up longer than intended. We'll try and do better in the future to ensure there's enough time to parse the details prior to a town hall.

[graceful vector]

Just finished listening to the town hall and just want to say this. Kieran said that "Wave 1 was a success, only thing was that alphas were overpriced". I completely agree with this. If things were a success don't change em, you don't change a winning formula.
The only thing needed is to adjust the pricing each wave to accommodate the ETH price fluctuations so it maintains its $ value and lower a bit the price of alphas, since there will be no alpha emotes given as well for these future waves (I think) and we now have a 24h window only to get these.

As for to everyone that is pushing for lower prices and that they want to get everything cheap and complete all the collections, I think that they are missing the point, this will take away the thrill of completion and rarity. And as much as we come to this space as web2 players this is a web3 game. You'll be getting in game assets while playing that have value outside of the game. No web2 game rewards you with anything besides fun for your time.
Also not being able to get all the illuvitars and having to buy them of the secondary market benefits the DAO with the trading fees and I don't think this should be overlooked.

[strange void]

Update: we are working on moving a revised proposal forward after reviewing the feedback here. Thanks everyone for being a part of what makes Illuvium’s governance so great 🫡

[final tartan]

Agreed, not sure if you were talking about my post but my point was that we don't need it to have a TCG to justify prices

[strong barn]

well said. i agree with this.

[strong barn]

thanks poole, its a well written proposal. i can see the dao has improved a lot

[graceful vector]

Expanding a bit on the drop chance % for higher tiers I've revised some illuvitar numbers and I feel like it's ok to pump a bit the higher tiers drop rate to narrow the gap between T1/T2 and T3 but we have to be very careful with these changes.

For example, looking only at non alpha normal expressions there are around 12-13k tier1 stage1 (archie, atlas, kukka), 11.9k tier2 stage 1 lynxes and then we jump to 1.7k tier3 stage1 (rypter, vermillia), tier4 stage1 (dash) with 1k and tier5 stage1 squizz with 939.
It's clear to see there is a big gap between T1/T2 and T3 and very little between T4 and T5. Since there won't be any more tier2 stage1 I guess now is the time to adjust these drop rates.

Also I would like to point out that regarding expressions we ended up with more winking dash (1368) than normal dashes (995). Which is something I feel that shouldn't happen even with the mega disks bonus chance.

[mystic jewel]

Because of Mega's and that 1500 mark that is a lot of weird behavior around that number. Another Dash example is this:

There is 995+294 common expression Dashes.
While there are 144+38 Holo common expression Dashes.

What should be 5% of Holo it's actually 12,4%. So basically 150% more Holo's then there should be.

Did we ever consider how rare Illuvitar in Megas is actually calculated because I think the current way was easy to implement, but is it really the best? Should we reconsider how we choose to decide what we can get in Mega's?

Or is there other data that supports how actually it's pretty good?

[scenic hatch]

When the last proposal came out in regards to Wave 2 pricing I felt that it was largely a knee-jerk reaction and that the numbers were being grasped out of the air.
I was listening to the town hall and it's good to hear that the new pricing is being based on identifying the target market and utilizing all data available in order to best sell to that market.

I see a lot of comments that this will benefit whales the most. Even if it does, so what? They have money. We want their money. Let's do our best to get it. Illuvium is a business. The main focus has to be profit not personal collecting goals. Not even what's "fair" to the community should be the focus. There will be no community if Illuvium goes under. I am assuming the numbers were crunched this time around as they looked at the data to figure out what the optimal price point is and if they have done that then we should be listening to them.

I agree that this is not a product for Web2 and I don't think it has to be. We all WANT Web2 to be here in droves right now, but this isn't going to bring them. Let the Overworld and PVP do that. Not everything that Illuvium does has to be for every person that will play in Illuvium.

I want to touch on the skin thing as a landowner. I understand the rationale of increasing value for Illuvitars instead of massively dropping prices, however one game should not gain value at the expense of another losing it. You haven't given us detals, so my concern may be moot, but land is experiencing dropping prices. We don't need more reasons for those prices to fall.

[mystic jewel]

@strange void sorry to bother you again, but would it be possible to get some of the answers from these questions?

[wind igloo]

I invested in Illuvium because it looked like the project that would seamlessly bring web2 gamers to web3 in a great gaming experience where players could potentially be playing the game and collecting assets before even realizing that crypto and wallets were involved.

This ICCP turns Illuvium into just another money grabbing NFT project, just like all the others...poor form. 👎

[fading crow]

I invested in Illuvium because it looked like the project that would seamlessly bring web2 gamers to web3 in a great gaming experience where players could potentially be playing the game and collecting assets before even realizing that crypto and wallets were involved.

Same, but Beyond was never the tool to achieve this.

[wind igloo]

Right, Beyond won't bring in the new players, but it will be sitting there as a barrier to get in-game skins and emotes once we do bring them in and I think many will find that just as off-putting as every other web3 project

[fading crow]

I don't think it will necessarily be a barrier as there will be lots of other ways to acquire skins, not just through Beyond, but all games.

Hopefully certain skins offered through beyond will be unique to Beyond, as a method of attracting players from others illuvium games to acquire them.

[modest laurel]

So are you for this proposal or not because you haven't voted?

[fading crow]

Sorry, I was back and forth for a while. I have ultimately voted against.

[modest laurel]

I was just genuinely curious 😁

[fading crow]

No worries 👍

[hoary crystal]

While I have a preference for lower prices for reasons I can explain later, I have no issue with:

• The proposed price of a normal Standard disk
• The proposed 2x multiple to be applied to the Alpha versions of wave 2 (even if I have Alphas from wave 1)

BUT I voted against the overall proposal for the following reasons:

1. Increase of price multiple applied on Mega disk vs. Standard seems very high imo (6.5x on normal and 9,6x on Alpha):
   While I understand that accessories and T0's should hold less value with each wave after the 1st, won't the tweak/improvement of drop rates compensate for that?

2. The multiple on an Alpha mega vs. Standard Mega being much higher: I assume 9.6x was chosen because of how wave 1 alpha standards performed + the fact that accessories are not alpha so add less value to alpha standard disks (and T0's are kind of subpar alphas [because recurring through waves?])?
   But I think that by reducing the price multiple on Alpha vs. normal disks from 5x to 2x, this problem is already addressed and Alpha Standards would become more attractive than they were in wave 1

3. It is very difficult to opine on what prices make sense or not if we don't know what new elements will contribute to the perceived value of disks: What are the contemplated tweaked drop rates? Will there be a wave 2-specific leaderboard / rewards? By the time the sale starts, will we see concrete announcements or instances of rewards on certain album collections? Rewards aside, will all holders be able to see how they rank in Beyond and will there be soft non-ILV incentives to rank in the 101 to [xxx] bracket? etc.

[hoary crystal]

Just to run the numbers on point 1 above to illustrate my concern (please don't mind the decimals or, if you do, just multiply everything by 10 🙂 ):
For the proposed price of one mega, instead of getting one normal, one "boosted" illuvitar and 5 accessories...buying Standards gets you 6.5 illuvitars, 6.5 T0's and 32 accesories.
With the tweak in drop rates, I wonder what would be the probability of getting at least one "boosted" illuvitar out of those 6.5? (for reference, if the chance to get a 1250+ illuvitar is a mere 10%, then you'd have c.50% chance of receiving at least one "boosted" out of those 6.5 standard disks and of course those remaining illuvitars, T0's and accessories are not worthless)

[hoary crystal]

Why I mentioned I personally have a slight preference for lower pricing:

I have been in the top 100 (lower half) since the start of the rewards. By now I feel interested, even maybe compelled to parcipate in wave 2. Regardless of disk prices (as long as they are not higher than wave 1), my idea was to dedicate a budget to try and complete some collections in wave 2. Depending on disk prices and probabilities, the % going into minting disks vs. buying illuvitars directly on secondary would differ but the budget would be closely the same.

What could make me spend less than my budget?
a. The feeling of being unable to achieve my goals (pricing too high)
b. Disks being too cheap (e.g. 1 USD per standard) and me being able to easily achieve or overperform vs. my target without spending full budget.

Will the DAO miss out on some of my revenue if disk prices are slightly lower? No, I would very likely spend the same amount if not a bit more as I would feel am getting more value for my money + enabled to collect rarer items. But that same price decrease may be what makes a few buy 1 or 2 or a few disks and come into the ecosystem.

Will the DAO miss out on some of the spending from top rankers / whales? I feel that there is enough variations and rarity to make sure that they too are not capped in their spending by a balanced decrease in prices. But I do agree that an excessive decrease could harm and would be difficult to reverse later on.

A survey would have been interesting.

[jade pollen]

Really appreciate this type concrete feedback!
I am in agreement with you that some more details would be enlightening for the community. I'll see if we can make that happen when the next proposal is presented to the community and those are finalised.

A survey would have been interesting indeed. I will keep that in mind for when we have similar time-consuming proposals in the future!

[hoary crystal]

Thanks Garf!

[strange void]

Apologies for the radio silence everyone. We have been working tirelessly to get new numbers negotiated. Will have more to share soon.

[last wasp]

Can you give an update on what you want to change and address in the new revision?

[mossy flint]

Hey everyone, such a heated topic.
I feel illuvitars isn't and has never been a mainstay of the game. I'm happy for it to be an NFT driven web3 aspect to illuvium labs, with elements that can be used in game, rewards such as battle board skins.
I've always thought it was for whales and don't really have a keen interest in the leaderboard. I mainly collect for prosperity and maybe I'll get lucky.
I would have brought a few more alphas if the price was low, yet I would never buy as much as the top.
I'm agreed it needs to be sorted and kept clear.
I feel if the previous proposal hadn't gone out, it wouldn't be an issue, yet we all got to thinking and creating rationale about the price suggested to us.
I don't believe it should be super cheap and aimed at web2. There is enough in the game to collect and make and organise.
All I can add is keep it simple.
The prices seem fair.
I like the idea of non whales and players having an opportunity to gain some occasionally through a rewards system, yet don't feel the need for illuvitars to marketed to them.

I like that it is a fun way to reward large investors.

[strange void]

We’re adjusting weights and prices to find middle ground. Alphas will be unchanged as far as our current thinking

[strange void]

Update: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1130940550149853184