ICCP - Refining the Parameters of Illuvium Beyond

[dark vessel]

Simple Summary: This updated proposal reflects valuable community feedback and the need to fine-tune the Wave 2 sale for Illuvium Beyond. This adjustment will achieve the ideal balance between cost, scarcity, and fun, while providing a scalable solutions for future Waves.

Abstract: The Marketing Subcouncil is proposing significant changes to the Wave 2 Illuvitar sale structure. Instead of offering a set quantity of D1SKS for a limited time or until sold out, we propose changing the sale to a 24-hour window with no cap on the quantity offered. We believe this adjustment will not only maintain the desired scarcity of Alphas (1 day vs. 90 days), but also allow demand to scale in line with new player adoption.

Rationale: Taking into account the thorough feedback from the community and discussions within the Council, the Marketing SC has reevaluated the initial proposal to better align with the core values of Illuvium Beyond. It is our stance that Illuvium Beyond should be fun, accessible, and supportive of collectors. With a 24-hour window for Alphas, those who wish to collect First Edition Illuvitars have the choice to do so. This allows for the market to determine scarcity.

In addition to lifting the quantity cap on Alphas, we are proposing pricing adjustment as follows:

Standard D1sks: $5
Mega D1sks: $20

Alpha Standard D1sks: $7.5 (1.5x)
Alpha Mega D1sks: $30 (1.5x)

Conclusion: After reviewing community feedback and holding numerous internal discussions, we have revised our proposal with the community, the collector, and the flex’er, each in mind. We still uphold the importance of keeping Alpha Illuvitars as a First Edition product, and believe it's important to offer it as an attainable option for those interested. This structure allows for both scarcity and scalability, and lowers the price barrier to entry, making it easier for newcomers to enter the Illuvium ecosystem.

Our expectation is that this revised pricing, along with the 24-hr Alpha window, will stimulate early participation in the sale while ensuring that Alphas remain exclusive.

<@&1107754344499122206>

Appreciate all feedback and thumbs 👋🏻

[novel pine]

We appreciate any and all feedback. I should also mention some of our major reasoning. We took many long reflective looks on illuvium beyond wave 1 and the gamestop sale and tried to uncover what worked and what didn't. It is clear from the data points that anything that made the experience more fun was highly successful and anything that turned it more into a game of scarcity performed different to expectation. With bringing down the prices and changing the narrative on alphas as a product we think it will make the illuvium beyond ecosystem even more about collecting. There's no worse feeling than having to spend a significant amount of money to even make an attempt at completing a line of grokkos or the atlas line. This should make it more engaging and exciting with every d1sk you buy

[dark vessel]

Beyond being a fun collector’s game is paramount imo. With that said, different people will be motivated to participate for different reasons. I believe this new structure carefully caters to each demographic, while pushing for even more fun 🫶🏻

[gentle horizon]

Anything planned for expensive wave 1 alpha purchasers? @dark vessel ? I thought you are almost ready to have something out few days back...

[dark vessel]

This proposal is solely for Wave 2 and beyond. To the best of my knowledge there is not an official decision made pertaining to Wave 1 participants, but either way it would be addressed separately from this prop.

Keep in mind if this ICCP passes, Wave 1 Alpha participants will gain the benefit of being owners of the only capped-quantity Alpha wave.

[gentle horizon]

Understood

[gentle horizon]

It can go either way in regards to quantity. Anyways i will see if anything getting planned for wave 1 alpha purchasers or not. Thanks

[novel pine]

We thought as much as we could on the subject and simply put if we held ourselves back by using wave 1 as a baseline it always negatively impacted the areas we sought to improve.

As JP said we aren't re releasing the same illuvitars and the secondary market will still price wave 1 illuvitars based on their initial price. Also T0 illuvitars will have different backgrounds.

Lastly the launch party for wave 1 had special emote d1sks that will be granted to alpha wave 1 d1sk purchasers. Keeping things like this unique to wave 1 will be a good way to help maintain that piece of history

[gentle horizon]

Different backgrounds and different illuvitars makes different wave anyway so thats not the point here. Main point is premium price paid by alpha wave 1 purchasers and dropping only emote d1sks doesn't justify the price... i feel like wave 1 alpha was atleast 3× expensive than any other wave alpha. Secondary market "will" do something is totally unacceptable unless extra added differences will be introduced for wave1 alpha. So basically, assuming that Secondary wave 1 alpha will justify its value by doing nothing specific is just speculation to me

[little acorn]

I wonder if a rebrand would be of benefit? Does it need to keep alpha name? 1st edition maybe… alpha could = 1st of the 1st 🥇 or do we want people going for a full set of alphatars

[worn mirage]

Need to change alpha it's for the first🥇

Premium or élite 😆

[dense oasis]

Hi, I really have an issue with the 1 day window for alphas. Not all of us are in the same time zone so won't get the benefit of the full 24 hours. Plus, some of us live in developing countries where we don't always have reliable internet! The team should cater for everyone, not just those in Australia/USA. Please expand the time period for the sale of alphas to 48-72 hours so that Illuvium appeals to more people in more countries - that is after all the ultimate goal of the game to be inclusive. Thank you <@&1107754344499122206> @novel pine

[fast willow]

Is the 1 day period only for the alphas or the entire wave 2?
1 day sale for alpha wave 2 disks and another 1 day sale for regular wave 2 disks?

[novel pine]

Everyone will have the benefit of 24 hours, its not based on timezone, but the argument for less reliable internet is definitely an interesting one. For an 'unlimited' sale I am not sure how I feel about extending it past 24 hours but its a good point for discussion

[novel pine]

24 hours for the alpha Wave 2 sale, the extended sale will last 3 months. Very similar to wave 1

[dense oasis]

Thanks for replying @novel pine Please discuss alpha timing with council so that no one in any country is excluded from participating for any reason - thank you!

[novel pine]

I have brought it to them for a discussion.

[gleaming moss]

Are the revised costs fixed at dollar price or can the price fluctuate depending on ETH value?

[fast willow]

Okay makes sense now ... imo it s a good proposal

[novel pine]

Closer to the launch of Wave 2 it would be an ETH set price, much like Wave 1, these proposals only use USD costs to make them easier to understand quickly.

For reference, Wave 1 Standards and Megas are priced around $9 and $45 respectively. or at least have been for most of their life

[static spire]

I feel you are devaluing Alpha Illuvitars for that reason I voted thumbs down. You are rebranding the image and I think if you do that you should at least change the name.
I went back and read the reasoning the counsel gave for having a higher price when the details were approved. I encourage everyone do so - Council Chambers February 12th.

I have spent a long time now typing, erasing, typing again. The me that loves Illuvium and is looking forward to the Illuvitars because I like Illuvials will be able to pick up the ones that I want on secondary market for less. However, I'm also an investor. That part of me is disappointed and hopes those Emotes are really fantastic and worth $170.00 each.

[little acorn]

Didn’t feel too strongly about the renaming but do feel it now I’ll second your thumbs down, thanks for the thoughtful response.

[boreal widget]

I feel like it might should be 72h instead of 24h.

[fading matrix]

Are we really doing ALPHAs every wave? I thought alpha was just for the very first release. Making it very special and rare. Now it’s just gonna be a money grab every wave?

[gentle horizon]

Alpha was planned for all waves from beginning but issue now is that alpha from wave 2 will be atleast 4× cheaper than alpha of wave 1. Its clearly devaluing wave 1 alpha here unless they are planning something for wave 1 alpha purchasers who paid premium price.

[fading matrix]

Well then it’s on me for not understanding alphas are released constantly. That itself changes my mind on how valuable I THOUGHT they were. But if they are going to be only “paid for premium” rather than an actual “one time rarity” like I thought they were. Then I absolutely agree that the prices should not come down for alphas. If they are not rare in time but only rare in cost. Then slashing the cost makes them not rare at all

I’ll follow on with some of my Negative feelings on this. Cutting the price and cutting it down to a 24 hour window makes it feel like a bad infomercial where we are trying to say “act now! If you order within the next 10 minutes then you get two cans of flexseal for the price of one”. I think the price should stay high and they should be available for longer.

[simple prairie]

I think that Alpha sale should still be caped, becaus now, if every collector is planning beforehand, they could buy all of their disks the first 24 hours and potentially making all the illuvitars Alpha.

Are Alpas supossed to be for early buyers or for whales? for the first wave they were maketed for whales, wich makes it weird to lower the price. And if it was supposed to be for whales then im all for it. But right now im a bit confused on what the Alpas really are, an incentive to get all of your wave disks within the first 24h?

[slender pumice]

Voted thumbs down. Setting al 4x lower price for alpha disks is a downgrade for the first alpha wave and the price on secondary will fall because of that. Few questions though; -How will second wave be seperated visualy when shown on the secondary market? -Will the disks have the same content although having a 4x lower price? -Do you realy expect to sell 4x more of the alpha disks by setting the lower price? Because that is the consequence of lowering the price, is that you'll have to sell 4x more in a small time window. Furtermore I think a 36hr time window is giving everyone more oportunity not to mis the alpha sale.

[surreal tree]

1. Would be nice if you could share some numbers or anything from the research on how will this lower price influence the prices on Secondary market. There will people collecting accessories which will not only lose value now because there are more of them, but will also lose value because D1SKs are cheaper. Also, there are common Illuvitars with rare backgrounds that will also fall down in prices because of cheaper D1SKs. Was that a concern? Is it possible we can learn a bit more on how and why this decision was made?

2. I agree with Torial and b0tch that calling them Alpha still doesn't really make sense.

3. Before Wave 1 it was mentioned that the price difference of Mega and Regular D1SKs was done with Data Science and figuring out what that price difference should be. What all of that a lie? Or are you just trying to ignore that now and change prices from the top of your head just for the sake of it? I don't understand how can the Mega D1SK now be only 4x as expensive, while we were using professionals before to get the price of 5x more expensive. Or do we think there was to many sales of Regular D1SKs on we want to balance things out? I don't understand that change.

4. Was there any research or numbers of what we can expect from Alpha Sale compared to the other 90 days with prices being closer now? Also, we do have to realize that it's possible that Non-Alpha D1SKs might become more expensive than Alpha D1SKs (at lease if we are looking at their price in USD) because their prices are in ETH after all. So is it possible that we are going to get a lot more Alpha Illuvitars that regular ones because in reality it's 30% discount, but it might become much much less. Or are we happy with more Alpha D1SKs being sold?

5. I have to once again mention that Alpha Pricing compared to each other should not have the same multiplier as Regular D1SKs. But I guess we decided to just go with the random numbers so that doesn't really matter in the end.

Also, I have to say I'm a bit dissapointed there are so many upvotes so quickly. I will like community doesn't care about any change as long as it includes lower prices, it's thumbs up. Don't get me wrong, I think we needed to lower the prices, I was for that 4 months ago. But so many thumbs up before or even without getting involved in the discussion is a bit sad.

[gentle horizon]

Exactly. Or it shows that only few handful of alpha investors who have invested heavily in alpha wave 1 and they are not majority in voting as proposal looks good for any new or non alpha purchasers already

[fading matrix]

Hypothetically what if there was another game stop disc release after the next wave and they dropped the price significantly on that second set of GameStop discs. Wouldn’t everybody who invested in GameStop discs already at the much larger initial price be very unhappy

[lunar umbra]

Appreciate the feedback as always.

Please view this from the perspective of us (Team, Council, Community) wanting to get this right for the next decade + . It's a very tough ask to ensure this makes everyone 110% happy.

Please remember we have multiple products launching end of year, we are planning a ton of value to come from completing Beyond Collections, and want to make each wave a fun experience for the community.

Illuvium's vision is to bring in the masses, we're not a BAYC, we're not an Azuki - The goal is to disrupt traditional studios and deliver fun experiences that happen to lean on the latest and greatest tech.

Set 1 Wave 1 & the GameStop NFTs will remain the OGs as we bring in the masses over the next 6, 12, 18 months.

We feel they're going to be some of the most 'must have' collections over-time.

[fading matrix]

I agree we don’t need to be BAYC, But The lower priced non-alphas can appeal to the masses just fine. I don’t understand why we feel the need to get alphas into the hands of the “masses” so cheaply

[surreal tree]

Thank you for your involvement in all of this. But sorry to be the pain in the rear part of the body but....

I do believe you and the team. We do have a lot of products launching soon. I guess there is a lot planned to ad value to Beyond Collections. We want to be better than traditional studios and deliver fun experiences. I agree with all of that.

But also, that was the same reasoning before the Wave 1.

There are some good changes in this proposal, there are some bad ones (or ones made without much thinking). But it would be nice if we could get a bit more reasoning behind the proposal. Not from you, but from anyone.

I feel like "considering feedback and talking within ourselves" is not enough to make a change that is right for the next decade. (Not trying to insult anyone or trying to be rude. I'm just trying to push the council to make the right decisions for that next decade. But maybe it's just me that is in the wrong.)

[lunar umbra]

Yep that's fair

[gentle horizon]

I agree with @surreal tree

Anyone can justify 4× price of alpha wave 1 against other wave alpha price? How visually they differ to have 4× higher value than other waves alpha?

[devout dock]

Upon reading the new proposal, this was a slap in the face to everyone who participated in the first Alpha Wave1 D1sk sale!
How could it be that we left the buyers who initially thought the rarity
(due to the high price of the first Wave1 Alpha D1sks)
would be preserved?
We now ignore it "for the sake of" we had sold significantly less than we wanted.

But you know what - now we just lowered the price by 4x; that must be a joke and a pretty bad one.

Of course, there is no question that the first Alpha wave was not cheap and certainly not the rare Illuvitar's in the aftersale, but where is the added value next to the Emote D1sks for Alpha Wave1 participants?
If you paid 4x more than the future one's attendee the sale but get the same for it, then that's a real slap in the face.

Thumbs down.

[devout dock]

+1

[gentle horizon]

Absolutely

[lunar umbra]

Everyone paid the same amount for Set 1 Wave 1.

I bought quite a few Alpha Mega D1SKs. Reminder: Set 1 Wave 1 is never being minted again.

Fresh participants wanting to complete collections need to buy Set 1 Wave 1 Illuvitars from us, at the prices we set.

[devout dock]

So where did the enlightenment come from when it initially said the D1sks were pretty priced and set by data analysts?

[surreal tree]

To be fair, it was said that only the price difference of 5x was done by data analysts. Pricing was done by council with high influence form the team and it was changed from the initial proposal.

[gentle horizon]

Isnt that the same situation for every wave after their finish sale time of 90 days? There is no extra value for alpha wave 1 that justify the price. We are not refering to other non alpha illuvitars of wave 1 here

[lunar umbra]

Yep, everyone that participated in Set 1 Wave 1 was on an equal playing field.

I bought the D1SKs, you bought the D1SKs, Kieran bought the D1SKs, Johnny bought the D1SKs. We all did.

Now we hold the supply of Set 1 Wave 1, likely to be the rarest collection provided we continue to build the product and onboard more players to the ecosystem.

[devout dock]

I'm curious about what Alexa & Co. think about this proposal.
Who had spent far more on Wave1 D1sks than most of us combined!
(without knowing the exact numbers)

But considering you, too, get precisely the same Alpha stamps as future participants in the Alpha D1sk sales of future waves and sets like those if the whole thing gets approved, who pay a fraction of what was initially proposed and deemed fair.

[lunar umbra]

New buyers can't buy Set 1 Wave 1, they must buy off the Secondary Market at prices those who did set.

[gentle horizon]

It will be same for other waves after they get completed... its just temporary advantage for set 1 wave 1 illuvitar and not having any special demand of alpha illuvitars of wave 1 to complete the collection anyway

[devout dock]

That may be the case so far.

However, one should keep in mind that wave1 only held a fraction of the entire Set1 - which means everyone who says, I don't care about wave1, I will wait for other Illuvitars which I can fill into these slots in the future, instead of paying the premium, which has the simple effect of debasing the Wave1 Illuvitars and especially the Alpha Wave1 Illuvitars.

[devout dock]

Exactly!

Besides that, climbing up the ranks will be much easier, considering you can get rare accessories a lot cheaper.

[gentle horizon]

If someone justify 4x price of alpha wave 1 then i would be happy to vote this proposal thumbs up. Please dont consider generic set1 wave1. We have price changes coming for alpha so only want justification for alpha

[devout dock]

+1

[surreal tree]

Was there ever a talk about drop rates at all? You could buy 24/25 Wave 1 Illuvitars for the price of 11 Mega D1SKs. I know there are accessories, I know there are different background, I know there is a lot.

I'm just interested if that was ever considered.

[unique laurel]

I don't really get this. Problem was the promo sale, not the alpha sale. Just lower quantity if you have to change things. And don't change sale window every week, push the stamp, just don't communicate different things, get your countdown clock to work properly etc. People will have more confidence aka buy more. Done...Don't need a whole council and weeks of debate to fix that? Why would you want to adjust a '1st edition' product weeks after being released. There's simply no need for that. Value and collectabilty comes over time (if ever).

[solid merlin]

My 2 cents in this are that there shouldn't be accessories in the alpha disks since there is no distinction from the ones in the extended version... And maybe alpha disks could give 3 illuvitars instead.

[surreal tree]

No accessories was always the best idea or adjusting the pricing. It just never came to life because nobody cared.

[solid merlin]

I don't think that is a fair statement, the folks here care alot about this project. This web3 gaming is just something that is a novelty and we need to figure out what's the best way moving forward. Mistakes are to be avoided but should also be a learning opportunity.

[surreal tree]

I'm not saying that nobody cared about the project. I'm saying that nobody cared about that proposal. As I was saying that more than a few times before first Alpha Sale. Even came out with numbers behind why it is not a good decision. But as I said, nobody cared about that than. I doubt we'll change it now. (even though we should)

[lunar umbra]

We cared each and every time.

We have 200,000 opinions in this discord.

[vale blaze]

Some general premises in reviewing this proposal:

1. We want a system that is scalable to future demand. Revising fixed quantities of Alphas, timeframes and pricing causes confusion for customers and can cause turmoil in secondary markets. A good solution should be able to go without revision for the foreseeable future.

2. Increasing adoption and focusing on the player experience is the highest priority for the ecosystem, and will produce the most overall benefit for everyone involved.

Extensions of these premises:
No fixed supply solution is going to make everyone happy.
On a short term time scale, Wave 1 buyers may not be happy about decreased pricing. This should be mitigated over a longer term, as leaderboard rankings and more involvement increases demand for Wave 1 assets.

With regards to your points:

1. We're not selling Wave 1 anymore, the existing supply is it, and Wave 1 continues to be required for leaderboard rankings. Are there situations in which subsets of assets could be devalued (such as background collections, or more topically, accessories)? Yes, some subsets could see price fluctuation. However, setting prices to a lower point is in line with overall goals - We're still pricing some people out of participation, and Beyond is structured in a way that the product has inherent rarity. We want Alphas to be a true community event - We want people to be able to participate, instead of sitting on the sidelines watching other people opening d1sks. This is the hook for the product, and we wanted to capitalize on the strengths. More people in the ecosystem remains the best thing for not only Illuvium: Beyond, but for Illuvium as a whole. This includes Wave 1 owners.

2. Changing the name doesn't accomplish anything meaningful, but does create a lot of extra work. Rebranding would mean updating a bunch of documentation, creating a new stamp, and just generally causing confusion about the product. To me, it doesn't justify the upside, considering we intend the functionality of Alphas and "Twalphas" (or whatever new name we use to describe Alphas) to be the same.

3. The original price difference was fairly close to being accurate. The relative price difference between standard and mega disks is based on the value of the assets inside of those d1sks. The data showed that, in most circumstances, standard d1sks were a clear winner. The revision to 4x is believed to bring the value of standard and mega disks to a point where they are more comparable, and present a more meaningful choice.

4. The current implementation leaves the performance of the Alpha sale up to the market. Instead of spending time evaluating how much sILV2 or ETH we project being spent, the market can decide how much demand there is for Alphas. This system scales much better than fixed supply solutions, where projections about player spend are a necessary part of the discussion, and must be revisited every Wave. We'd like to avoid implementations that require constant attention from the team, as they detract from other development priorities.

5. T0's having distinct backgrounds every Wave at least partially alleviates this concern. Alpha Standards still have a place in terms of acquiring Alpha T0's every Wave with the different backgrounds. There may be room for revision here.

[surreal tree]

Okay, I'm sorry. I wasn't suppose to use that word. Let's say it wasn't considered (sorry, but it's hard to say anything less because it was a very good point with numbers to back it up).

[lunar umbra]

I know, I'm sure it was well constructed. Don't get me wrong I'm sure it was valuable

My point is we're trying to distill 200,000 opinions into the perfect pricing model

[opal hawk]

1. New alpha illuvitars dont just break the value of previous alpha Illuvitars.
   It is like buying an oldtimer, it retains its value and is heavily affected by the initial cost. While an oldtimer car can drop in value because it degrades/rusts, an NFT does not.
   If you paid 4k for an Alpha Rhamphyre before anything was certain and at a later date, the team adds certain rewards for wave 1 Rhamphyre holders, I would expect you to be more certain of the value and change it based on the use case. This was speculation all along. The team also said that Alphas were just a little stamp and nothing more. You paying 5x for that is up to you.

2. The price in the future should be lower overall.
   This current proposal allows for a decrease in price which makes it easier to step into the collection aspect of the game.

3. Unlimited sale over 24 hours allows for a number of issues to be resolved when moving into future waves.

A lower price + unlimited sale allows for the possibility to mint a lot more alpha d1sks in wave 2 than the previous one. This would allow for less scarcity of wave 2 alphas. But the marketing would no longer have that as a set "goal" in mind that has to be reached. This way, the team wont have to aim for a certain number of sales which reduces the sentiment of it being a cash grab.

Additionally, missed prints could be prevented if someone was actively searching for the 1/1s. Since there is no limit, a big spender could buy hundreds of d1sks and open them during the day to get it. In previous sales, you could have an entire sale without some Illuvitar. Whales would spend and aim to get that 1/1 rare Illuvitar only to be left with disappointment because the illuvitar wasnt in any of the alpha d1sks.

Lastly, with a growing community, limited d1sk sales would have to be discussed each and every sale. After all, selling 20K d1sks to 8000 buyers is a lot less prohibiting than selling 40k d1sks to 1Million buyers. A limited sale would allow everyone to have the same chances every wave without change.

I very much care about the value of the alphas. Yes i hope they will still pamp as I bought dozens of alpha d1sks, but it was also a risk i took. The secondary market buyers will be the biggest losers íf alpha wave 1 prices drop. But im of the opinion that later waves wont devalue the use case of the wave 1 illuvitars. They are unique collectibles in the album and they have a collectors stamp. That was all that was promised in the first place.

[devout dock]

I don't see the added value that those who paid 4x for wave 1 had.

When I asked Aaron directly about it, it was said that the prices would remain the same.

This influenced the strategy - if someone had told me that if I waited, the cost would be 4x cheaper, I would never have bought into Wave1 the way I did.

[unique laurel]

"Wave 1 buyers may not be happy about decreased pricing". Thing is those people are pretty much your only customers at this point. Changing things up after open beta (with hopefully plenty of new people) is one thing. But changing things now just seems risky to me and more a case of experimenting with the new dao structure than anything else.

[devout dock]

+1

[vale blaze]

It's going to be 10x harder to make a change like this with 10x players. We're better off getting it right now. Part of our responsibility is to be setting our systems up for launch.

[gentle horizon]

Ofcourse. Its totally meaningless to purchase premium alphas if we knew that price will be far more cheaper in next waves. There is no justification here for alpha wave 1 purchasers here.. we are only talking about speculations which cannot be considered for justification.

[fading matrix]

I don’t understand why there is a goal of getting more alphas out there. If you want to bring in more people and make the price point lower, by all means decrease the price of the non-alphas. But leave the price of the alpha disks the same.

[devout dock]

For example.
+1

[vale blaze]

Feel free to read the last proposal related to Alphas - A main point of concern there was that less Wave 2 Alphas would exist than Wave 1 Alphas.

Should that metric be decided by the council, or decided by the market? Letting the market decide makes the most sense to me.

[gentle horizon]

We should continue with alpha wave 1 data and allow to purchase alphas as long as it reaches the count that matches the wave 1 alpha and there shouldn't be any time limit applied so that its open until it reaches wave 1 alpha count with same price.

[surreal tree]

Once again, that you for taking the time and answering all of my questions.

1. I wasn't bashing price reduction, I was just interested how much it was considered for something lice accessory pricing and were there any research on how will that also decreased the value of Wave 1 unopened D1SKs as well.
   Because I agree there need to be lower prices, I was arguing that before the Wave 1 together with other people. But I guess, it's sometimes hard for price setters to put themselves in other people shoes and see that in fact that's really expensive if we want global adoption.
   I feel like this is a step in the right direction. I just wanted to ask was there any research on how would this affect some numbers of was this done just for the sake of it?

2. In my mind, Alphas were always meant to be a limited edition, while they are still limited (time wise) they really aren't. But I can understand where you're coming from and I think this is not something that is really important.

3. Nice to see some research done and change done behind that research. Would it be possible to share more info about that or at least a bit more numbers on that topic?

4. My point here was that with the fluctuation of ETH, we might get Regular D1SKs being more expensive than Alpha D1SKs with prices so close. Also, I'm scared (like we were before) that we are going to have much more Alpha D1SKs sold than regular ones. We probably won't but there is always a possibility.

5. My point was always about regular accessories being in the Alpha D1SKs and that changes the pricing. But with new T0 we are now maybe closer.
   But again, research and numbers here would be helpful in making a decision.

[gentle horizon]

Correct

[gentle horizon]

Are we getting it right? Really for wave 1 alpha?

[surreal tree]

Thank you for taking the time and answering all of my questions.

1. My point was not about that. It was about accessories and some collections (with rare background, etc.) that will now all become more accessible.

2. I'm all for lower prices. I was just wondering about numbers behind that.

[gentle horizon]

I am in favour of new alpha prices but against it because there is no clear proposal that justify wave 1 alpha price. I hope someone here can justify that

[simple prairie]

Since the proposal changes the multiplier from standard to mega from wave 1, will this also change the low cap power rating in the mega disk, or will that stay?

[vale blaze]

This was discussed a bit, but the plan was to keep the power rating from Wave 1 in Mega disks.

[devout dock]

[vale blaze]

You can be upset with me for being here discussing this with you, I'm ok with that. I'll answer whatever questions I can about the proposal.

[gentle horizon]

@vale blaze , can you help me in explaining this proposal in benefit of wave 1 alpha? How it will retain its premium value based on premium price as we dont have any visual differences between any other wave alpha and wave 1alpha?

[simple prairie]

im trying to see the alpha sale changes as if this was the first wave, this would be a fomo creator, i have nothing against that. it would no longer be a whale collector game, witch is a big change for that small minority of collectors, i cant speak for them.
Are there much discussions about removing the alpha concept? if i bought disks in the first 24h for emotes or something like that, it would make more sense to me now, then branding my illuvitar alpha becaus it was bought within the first day, it just feels very weird to me

[vale blaze]

This proposal is for Wave 2 Alpha pricing.

I'll explain again how it could benefit Wave 1 Alpha owners.

Right now, there's not a lot of liquidity or interest in Wave 1 Alphas. This is a consequence of not a lot of interest in Illuvitars, and can be attributed (at least in part) to having price points set too high for Wave 1 in general.

The benefit of this proposal would be to create an improved customer experience, through lower prices and a more scalable structure. More overall involvement in Beyond gets more eyes on assets, and over time, could create more demand for Wave 1 assets.

[vale blaze]

The inherent rarity of, for example, Tier 5's with Stage 3 backgrounds, does still create a market for whale collectors. The maximum price for things like that is definitely decreased, but it's definitely not gone.

[austere yarrow]

Am I the only one not understanding why people are unhappy about price drop ?

Price drop means more people buying wave 2. Maybe bringing new people as illuvitars owner. Those people may be interested to collect some of wave 1. Making them more scarce.

All in all dropping wave 2 price don’t make wave 1 less valuable. It’s the total opposite to me.

It also goes exponentially with time passing and new waves and new owners ….

[gentle horizon]

Isnt the demand of wave 1 alpha would be same as wave 2 alpha as they both visually having no difference. I still think that alphas from each wave gradually have the similar value instead of special vlaue for wave 1 alpha

[simple prairie]

ohh i did not mean general whale collectors, i meant whale collectors as in "only Alpha" collectors

[gentle horizon]

Why do we need alpha if you want to bring more buyers. Lets just scrap alpha for all other waves and just make wave 1 alpha only available for everyone

[viral garnet]

Not sure what you mean here. Alphas will have the alpha mark. While the waves will have visual difference since the illuvitars are exclusive to their wave. So the exclusivity & demand is still anchored to the fact that (1) Wave 1 Illuvitars are exclusive to it; and (2) Its the first illuvitars

[austere yarrow]

I would challenge the 24h though and go for 48h. I don’t think internet access is the issue, timezone can be.

I would also include the launch of the sale, to be on a Friday and overlap 1 day of week end. It would help people to catch the sale if they want to.

Price I don’t have much opinion, honestly let’s try. Every wave can come with different price and scarcity even. I don’t care much. Price drive scarcity, then, when wave ends, scarcity drive price. Making it more widely available though is useful to bring people in the ecosystem. If bull start and wave 3 arrive, think about dropping to a dollar even.

What I would hardly push for, is a proper launch. DO NOT have a 24h launch without agenda, guests and plan. And end up with “yo” “fuck” “shit” “I’m tired” for hours. Please. You’ve a marketing vehicle, use it, don’t shit on it.

[gentle horizon]

What If we have visual differences like 1st edition alpha for wave 1 and normal alpha stamp for other waves.

[viral garnet]

This could be done by changing the colors. @regal sail and @midnight totem might have ideas on this front.

[midnight totem]

we are working internally on the visual difference atm
we learned from our last sale, and trying to make alpha stuff stand out more + need to clear definition of waves as well

will keep you guys posted, once got the result we're happy with

[viral garnet]

Thanks, Dmitriy!

[fading matrix]

I was thinking this same way. Why continue alphas at all if they are only going to cost a few dollars more? Just to show you got in the first 24hrs of the wave sale? I’d be onboard with discontinuing alphas moving forward if this is the route that we are planning Just have regular standard and mega

[gentle horizon]

I would love to get alpha holo stamp for wave 1 alpha and normal alpha stamp for all other waves

[surreal tree]

I don't see how is 24hours a timezone issue. Only problem I see with 24 hours is that if you can only buy in your time zone around 6pm, and it happens to be a problem with buying at that time (like with gamestop), you are screwed.

[gentle horizon]

I also like that if we dont have any other alpha at all

[devout dock]

The fact that wave1 D1sks were watered down and only now noticed that the D1sks from Wave1 were merely too expensive is not ok - from my point of view.

Especially when you consider that the only real benefit of participating in the Alpha Wave1 D1sk sale will be the Emote D1sks; in order not to project a wrong picture here - I support the price adjustment under the following condition: There should be further distinguishing features for future Waves compared to Wave1.

[gentle horizon]

Bitter truth

[devout dock]

I like this idea.

[gentle horizon]

Totally agree

[simple prairie]

maybe you are away from home that day

[surreal tree]

Maybe you are away on the holiday the whole week?

[solid merlin]

+1

[austere yarrow]

Anyone trying to do meeting with the 4 groups of people know the issue. Anz, apac+gcn, emea, americas. If you want all you’ve a very limited time. Knowing that some will wake up 10-12h into the sale and have to go to work for another 8-12h. It’s a bit shortsighted to think 24h for illivtars is enough, it can be enough to force scarcity. Do we want to do that ? Illuvitars isn’t your usual 10k pfp NFT. The price gap is already there with normal illuvitars.

[surreal tree]

But there are D1SKs being sold for the next 90 days. If you want Alpha Illuvitars you can buy them literally in any time of the day, you just need like 10 minutes.

Only problem I see, again, is if you take 10 minutes to buy D1SKs but you can't buy them then.

[summer mural]

I agree 24 hour sale might be too short of a time frame considering sleep and work take about 16 of those hours up leaving people with only 8 hours to buy.

[surreal tree]

More of a problem I see is people going on holidays without their Ledgers, I really hope we can announce time of sale at least 2-3 weeks before.

[solid merlin]

I don't think you need a crystal ball to guess what's gonna happen. People are going to buy a ton of alpha disks so they can sell it at a 50% premium 1 day after alpha sale closes

[summer mural]

Sale is not planned anytime soon so we should be able to do this

[surreal tree]

If everyone buys Alpha D1SKs there will be nobody to sell them to. If there is 50k people joining us and willing to pay extra price, we will all be happy about the revdis and the price rise.

But remember, we were talking about that same topic before with Wave 1. It will sell out, it will be so expensive. Look at it now.

[solid merlin]

I see greed talking here as usual instead of a gaming mentality. The illuvium beyond game is a collection game where alphas offer ZERO advantage in this game

[summer mural]

How is greed talking here? This proposal is literally about lowering the price, which is the opposite of greed

[surreal tree]

It was always said that Alpha will offer ZERO advantage in this game. It is still like that, the only advanrage there is is Alpha Logo when printing D1SKPLATEs that will soon be available.

[solid merlin]

was referencing the comment before for no need of alphas. I'm in favor of lower prices but this unlimited alpha disks doesn't sit well with me. If this are equal to first editions then there is ALWAYS a fixed limit for them

[opal hawk]

You can always send your eth to a friend and have them buy disks for you.

Cant alpha's be seen similar to a first sale for Iphones? There is always an entire row of campers for those but nobody complains if they get one at a later date.
For the alpha's you just get a cool stamp so it isnt like you are missing out on something crazy. Right?

[proud storm]

Regarding the 24 hour window discussion on alphas where people have 'only 8 hours after work and sleep':
This feedback here includes the word 'only' like that's a small amount of time. I would remind everyone that we are discussing 'only' 8 hours to buy when 1) there is no gas to worry about, 2) the date will be announced weeks in advance, and 3) the transaction takes about 3 minutes to execute. Most folks generally have some time before work, after work, and before bed. So this 8 hours is typically in 3+ windows throughout the day. I also think it's reasonable to expect someone to adjust their sleep or personal time schedule to free up those 5 minutes sometime within the day if this is a priority for them.
I do agree if we have a technical issue on the front-end we might need to allow ourselves the ability to extend a timer by a couple hours and will ask the team to ensure we build this in to be prepared in case this happens. The recent AWS issue during promo sale reminded us of this too.

[surreal tree]

I would also argue it's better for promotion and marketing that the sale lasts only 24 hours. After that time we can start buying regular D1SKs and everyone starts buying. We can all agree it was pretty boring the 2nd and 3rd day last time around when everyone bought their Alphas and were just waiting for Regular D1SKs to start.

[earnest rivet]

I favor the ICCP's idea of lowering prices for non-alpha D1sks. It makes total sense and imo is the right move.

What I am dissatisfied with, and the reason why I pressed thumbs down, is that we have not addressed the issue of compensating/taking care of wave I alpha buyers (I know alpha stamp is in the works). To me, this should also be discussed as part of this ICCP as they both go hand in hand. If the plan is to lower the price of alpha wave 2 D1sks to 1.5x and do nothing else, I am greatly opposed to this ICCP as it is.

I'd like to see future alphas be called "first editions" / "something different" or stop alpha sales altogether. It's unfortunate that early adopters of Beyond can't seem to justify the initial 5x at this point.

[proud storm]

Yes, agreed on this too. It was clear that you can maintain an initial momentum for 24 hours but beyond that it just drags on in the middle.

[simple prairie]

But still, wave 1 & wave 2 are seperate.
The thing i would push for is that the collection of alphas is changing. A alpha collector is paying a big premium for a set scarce amount of illuvitars, this iccp changes that collection game to something ells

[viral garnet]

Any discussion on compensation should be a separate proposal otherwise you will be holding hostage a time sensitive proposal considering wave 2 changes needs dev time to implement. So I hope people would put that into consideration as well.

[woven patio]

💯

[static spire]

This was what you wrote regarding Alphas in February. People were saying that the high price was too much and you were justifying it as something marketed to a specific demographic. Today you are saying you want it to be a true community event. I am not being facetious or contentious, I am truly curious as to why your opinion on this changed from Wave 1 to Wave 2.

With regards to the first point, whether alpha disks should exist at all - I believe the existence of alpha disks is important to ensure the DAO can maximize revenue. I think our potential to bring in revenue would be decreased if they did not exist. Looking at comparable products, there's a reason something comparable to alpha disks exist, and that reason is that there is a demographic who likes limited edition products, and is willing to pay for them. It would be a mistake to ignore that demographic.
(A small part of Blickter's statement of why he was voting yes in February. Taken from Council-chambers on February 12. )

I have the same question for @novel pine and @proud storm as well because they also said similar things. Again, taken from Feb. 12 and only small snippets due to space here.

*** “And likewise, those who want to own exclusive items like Alpha Illuvitars and are willing to pay a high premium to do so are also catered to. And all of this is structured in the best interest of the DAO to continue to build revenue streams to build out the most extensive Web3 gaming ecosystem in the world…and Beyond.” Animositas**

“Although some might see Alpha d1sks as unnecessary they do enable an entirely different kind of collector to get involved with the project whilst helping Illuvium generate further revenue to benefit everyone. I also appreciate the 3 day sale period for alpha d1sks which I feel aligns well with the different incentives for different kinds of collectors. Scoriox***

[earnest rivet]

I disagree. If this gets passed now potential compensation/solution of (i) rebranding alphas or (ii) eliminating alphas altogether will be less likely to happen or to be discussed at all. I've read at least a couple of arguments done in this direction and I don't feel like both ideas have no traction. Also, with wave 2 parameters set, we run the risk of putting compensating wave 1 alpha buyers in the "low priority" list. I see no reason why this should not be decided within the ICCP.

[vale blaze]

I should call attention to the second part of my reasoning, because it's equally relevant.

With regards to the second point, I acknowledge that it's possible a better implementation could exist, but I don't personally believe we'll be able to say concretely what elements of the current implementation can be improved until after we've looked at data from the sale. I don't believe Illuvitars can be compared 1:1 with a TCG, but I also don't believe it can be compared 1:1 with an NFT profile picture project. We've arrived at a solution that is somewhere in between, and I believe it can't be substantially improved without more information. If there are issues with the format of the sale, we should do what our DAO does best - iterate and improve.

To summarize - I still believe alphas have a place, but I have absolutely updated my perspective on their role in Beyond based on the data we saw with Wave 1. If we're not able to iterate and improve, we're hamstringing ourselves. I appreciate that some people may not view the current proposal in that light, but it's my perspective that this is an improvement.

[dark vessel]

Really appreciate everyone's thoughts and feedback, this is why we do this. Just got caught up so I'm thinking through all of it.

[static spire]

Thank you for the response Blickter, appreciate it.

[solid merlin]

I feel like the 1.5x price multiplier is a bit low. Everyone will probably want to buy in the alpha period for this price. I haven't read any rationale has to how we arrived at these price tags. I feel like 2x multiplier would be the best fit for alpha disks. Anyone can expand on this?

[bright sand]

For me as a huge investor in Illuvium in general and Illuvitars, this whole Alpha thing has put a huge sour taste in my mouth. Mainly because how the team and council came out to defend their price for wave 1 saying they were going after a certain type of collector. Now they have completely changed their opinion and thesis.

To put this in perspective I look at it in different things in life. If I was to buy a limited edition car for $100.000 and the normal car is $20,000. Then next years limited edition is only $30,000... how would you feel about your purchase and how would the perception be of that team?

[dark vessel]

The more people that buy Wave 2 Alphas, the better that is for Wave 1 Alpha buyers. We believe it's unlikely that people will even want to pay a 1.5x for Alphas if they don't care about having a first edition, they'll just wait the 24 hours and then have that same dollar value go further during the 90 day sale. If people do feel 1.5x is too low and flood into that 24 hour window, then this is good for the DAO, because we are producing 1.5x the revenue on those sales.

As has been mentioned above, we can't keep everyone happy, but we're doing our best to distill down thousands of opinions into one pricing model. Each demographic has their opportunity in this model. The people who just want to play the game can now do so for cheaper, enhancing the fun factor. The people who want to speculate on the price appreciation of Alphas can still do that, and their "game" is even more enhanced by the fact there's only a 24 hour window to grab that part of history.

[proud storm]

I’ll echo and expand on what Blickter noted earlier. I still feel very strongly that the place for Alphas is as a premium, flex item. The customer is still the same - the person that wants to own the best, most exclusive product. Nothing changes in this proposal to move away from that view. The community sentiment and market data is telling us pretty clearly that going forward the premium price to value ratio should be adjusted for future waves. We’re working on the product side (adding the visual indicators) and the pricing side reduction as all of these future waves will never be the very first sale (alpha of alphas).

(Btw, this is a totally fair line of questioning and you and the community are being very reasonable here so I want to say I appreciate that.)

[dark vessel]

I'll also note that I am also unopposed to rebranding Alphas. I think a simple "First Edition" fits better, and if we want to lean more into differentiating Wave 1 Alphas then there's an easy way to do that. It also serves to better define exactly what those Illuvitars are. They aren't enhanced in other ways, and some people have expected them to be, so First Edition really clearly defines this imo.

[solid merlin]

this is what I don't get. Why do you say people are only speculating on alphas? I think we are speculating on all illuvitars, where alphas have a usual price tag of 5x

[dark vessel]

People of course can speculate on whatever they want to speculate on, but the purpose of "non-alpha" Illuvitars is not speculation, it's fun. You don't always get a financial ROI on fun.

[solid merlin]

there are only 855 holo atlas non alpha for example you think these won't appreciate aswell? ofc they will...

[surreal tree]

I agree with you and I'll add to that...

March 11th (2nd day of Regular sale) - Regular D1SK price was 0.005 ETH (~$7.15)
April 17th (~month into the sale) - Regular D1SK price was 0.005 ETH (~$10.60)

That's almost 50% increase in price in one month.

Who knows what can happen.

But are we going to get at the point where Regular D1SKs are more expensive than Alpha D1SKs were a month ago?

[solid merlin]

yes you just need to hope ETH doesn't have a run meanwhile

there can be 1 wave where the price of disks doubles due to eth unpredicted growth

[bright sand]

For me this would be a huge win. To have such a drastic change in price and change in model and still label it Alphas would be wrong. I like the idea of upcoming waves being called First Edition.

[dark vessel]

I'm open to that. Will discuss with the others, but I think it's appropriate

[solid merlin]

why not call them Betas?

game still hasn't released and these are different than alphas

[little acorn]

I would upthumb if this were the case

[earnest rivet]

I'm all for this, to me makes perfect sense. If we are no longer selling alphas for 5x, let's not brand them in the same way.

[bright sand]

same

[dark vessel]

That's fair. It helps solve for some of the concerns if we make Alphas a one-off (better for appreciation as the ILV ecosystem grows in size), and First Edition I think clearly defines exactly what a person is paying a premium for.

Anywho, will take that back to the council and let you guys know, appreciate the feedback.

[surreal tree]

I have to once again urge the council or team or whoever made the decision about about Mega's now costing only 4x as much. Thanks to Blickter we know that "The data showed that, in most circumstances, standard d1sks were a clear winner. The revision to 4x is believed to bring the value of standard and mega disks to a point where they are more comparable, and present a more meaningful choice."

I would love to see some data or more explanation on why this decision took place. Because from the outside it seems that Standards should be worth less than before now as accessories will only lose value as there are more of them.

[frozen haven]

Some good ideas in this proposal, but the overall result is over-adjustment, resulting in devaluing the whole alpha concept. Voted thumbs down for this reason.

The lowering of price for the extended disks is great for the stated goals of more fun, more chance to complete collections, and just more participation by the masses overall. I highly agree with this part. And this should take care of the lower-budget collector part of the audience who value completing collections.

The other big part of the audience is the higher-budget collectors, who value rarity over anything else and are willing to pay for the privilege of owning 1 of 1s and first edition pieces. This is where the problem is with this proposal. By lowering the price of alpha disks to a trivial 1.5X the price of extended disks is a clear pricing mistake. It caters to no one, nor the mass audience, nor the high-budget collectors, it's in the grey zone in between. More importantly, it ruins the alpha series. How do you propose to lower the price point of an item from $230 to $30 and still call it the same thing??

There is no nice way to say it guys, the 1.5x price point is a clear mistake, alphas should be at least 3x the price to still retain some level of exclusivity, and they would still be less than half the price of the wave 1 alphas. Don't ruin rarity in the name of catering to a mass audience. That will already happen by the lower price point of the extended disks.

[surreal tree]

I agree that 1.5x is probably too low (maybe for some other reasons than those you mentioned).

But, don't you think you can retain level of exclusivity with the sale being available for only 24 hours? And also, if the price is two high we are risking that there would be less Wave 2 Illuvitars than Wave 1. And that would finish everyone that bought Wave 1 Alphas even more.

[static spire]

Thank you for the answer Ani. I don't see this pricing keeping Alphas in an exclusive product category. Exclusive products don't don't have this drastic of a drop in price. Exclusive brands choose to take a hit on volume of sales during slow times rather than risk devaluing their brand image.

One more thing, thank you for not being offended by my question, appreciate that.

[solid merlin]

I would upvote this if the price tag was atleast 2x the normal disks and rebrand alphas to first editions. I'm fine with the 24h duration of the sale but can see it going to 48h if the majority finds it's too tight of a schedule.

[dark vessel]

It’s meant to be a tight schedule. That’s a factor in the scarcity being desired by others in this conversation

[frozen haven]

I agree with alpha prices coming down. The 5x multiplier is unjustified, especially in light of the monetary rewards for being on the leaderboard. Going from $230 to $90 or even $75 would achieve a more balanced pricing and still retain exclusivity. But going from $230 to $30 is ridiculous. Alpha investors and collectors could buy more than double the items for the same amount of money so I don't think they would sell less than wave 1 alphas. Alphas are meant to be flex items for collectors. Since when is a flex item costing only 1.5x than the normal version of the same item? Look at cars, watches etc.

[dark vessel]

We also discussed $5/$25 instead of $5/$20 to maintain the 5x. I’m open to that also. For the alpha multiplier, the initially discussed range was 1.5-2x. If the community feels 2x is more appropriate I’m open to that too.

Alphas are meant to be a flex item for gamers^. What should be kept in mind is that all of Illuvium Beyond was always meant to be about the fun. Whilst I agree with catering to collector/speculator mentality as well, it can’t or shouldn’t be the primary focus.

[static spire]

But that is not in-line with what we were told just 4 months ago. 4 months ago the collector/speculator was the primary focus for Alpha pricing.

[dark vessel]

I think the 24hr window reduction solves for the collector/speculator

Or at least the speculator. The collectors benefit from the easier access.

[frozen haven]

More fun is taken care of by the lower price of extended disks, so there is no need to ruin the alpha brand in the name of it. You yourself said that alphas are meant to be flex items, please price them accordingly. Please also note that I am not touting my own bags, I will happily buy extended disks and play the leaderboard/complete more collections. But I am interested in the future of the whole Illuvium project and feel that an exclusive collectors line has a place in it so we can cater to a higher-budget audience as well as a mass audience.

[dark vessel]

It is a balancing act to cater to the higher-budget audience and the mass audience. We believe gamers with lower budgets should have the choice to flex a rare piece of Illuvium history at an attainable price too.

Imo, the “hard” part should be being a buyer with only 24 hours to do it, the “hard” part shouldn’t be being able to afford it.

[velvet swallow]

what if the price of wave 3 is even cheaper how do we know the prices wont just change for every wave

[surreal tree]

I have to push back hard on this one.

It's not a matter of discussion. ($5/$25 or $5/$20) It should not be a matter of discussion.
It was decided that 5x is the best option before the Wave 1 by a talented data analyst working for Illuvium that crunched all the numbers.
We can't just go and decide differently just by discussing it. There needs to be numbers and data involved.

Or was all of that a lie and it was a made up number so we think we can made up a better one this time?

[dark vessel]

With that said, as mentioned above, I would vote through on a 2x multiplier for Alphas as well if the community really feels like that’s a better multiplier. I am comfortable with the range.

As for future changes, we don’t have a crystal ball, but we are exhaustively testing through the options in an effort to roll out a sustainable solution.

[dark vessel]

I’m not a data analyst, but I know we spoke with Aaron/Perry and it’s been established that a 4x works for what we need.

We would not have suggested it if it were going to break the system, it was considered beforehand.

[surreal tree]

I agree with JP, the "hard" part should be being there on the first day.

We also need to realized that it is in our interest to sell as many Alpha Illuvitars as possible because money and marketing.

But with 1.5x I feel like we might sell more Alphas then Regular ones, and if ETH rises Regular D1SKs will basically be the same price as Alphas.

For that reason I think 2x works just fine.

[dark vessel]

If we sell more Alphas in 24 hours than Regulars in 90 days, then something is fundamentally wrong with Beyond. I don’t think it’s a risk factor. We want to sell as many Alphas as possible in that 24hr window for the mentioned reasons. Money and marketing. This balance is good for the DAO.

But again, devil’s advocate, cuz I’m fine with 2x also if it’s a sticking point for the community.

[frozen haven]

Look at what happened in the wave 1 alpha sale. The whole 20k supply was bought, a significant portion by speculators hoping to make a quick buck, then pushing down the market price when that did not happen. The $30 price point would invite a lot more speculators, doing the same thing again, pushing the price of alpha disks to almost the same as a normal disk on the secondary market. This could ruin the game for high-end collectors, cause now suddenly there is no difference between alphas and non-alphas, taking away the exclusivity from the "flex" item. Gamers with lower budgets will still have the chance to buy 1 alpha for their pfp, and if they have to work for it a little, it will only raise the value in their eyes.

[woven patio]

I like the Idea of rebranding future wave Alpha's. Differentiates and Justifies the premium of wave 1 Alpha's as a one off. Still allows a renamed premium product riding on future waves.

[dark vessel]

I understand and appreciate your perspective here. I think we just disagree on what demographic matters most here. The 24hr no-cap sale is a self-correcting system for investors. If the alpha sale is underperforming because high-budget individuals see it as a less attractive opportunity, then less Alphas will sell. When less Alphas sell, the total outstanding quantity is lower, thus making them rarer and more attractive to investors. And the wheel goes round and round.

[frozen haven]

This does sound acceptable, but it would require 2 sets of visual differentiation for the 2 premium line.

[dark vessel]

We’re looking into this. It ultimately will depend upon how much dev time and money a rebrand would require. Keep in mind extra efforts redo’ing things like this is time spent not on PvP etc.

I am supportive of adjusting to First Editions instead of Alphas if it’s a reasonable lift. If it’s a lot of time, energy and money to rebrand all of it and redo graphics, I think it’s not a high priority issue.

[woven patio]

Correct me if im wrong. Did the rebranding of the name to "Wave" occur quite fast when "fight for ETH" came up with the name?

PvP first always.

[surreal tree]

Wave/Batch didn't had as much going for it as Alphas do. There are Alpha images, Alpha logos, Alpha filters, Alpha Illuvitars, Alpha this and that. You need to make all of that but with different branding. It's not just developers, it's Art team as well.

[dark vessel]

^ yup. It’s a lift.

How heavy that lift is, is what I’m looking into right now. If it’s doable we will look into doing it. If it isn’t, I trust the community would rather have the word Alphas than push back important stuff like PvP

[woven patio]

yep

[frozen haven]

Speculators will see it as an opportunity and buy them, pushing down the price and turning off investors from collecting alphas due to the lack of "flex" is the more likely result, imo. I'm not saying that high-budget collectors are or should be more important than gamers at all. But since we have an alpha line, we should keep it exclusive, otherwise, there is no point in having it. Anyway, I will stop hammering my point, it seems you would be OK with a 2x price point, and that would be a minimally acceptable solution I think, turning my vote to a thumbs up. Grateful for the overall effort towards more accessibility to a wider audience of gamers though, thanks guys!

[simple prairie]

Is the thinking going in the direction of getting people to fomo into the alpha? im not saying that im against it, but otherwise i think we should have the alpha and normal release at the same time (from a launch party perspective its more fun for those whos going for normal)

[dark vessel]

Appreciate your thoughts and feedback. What this is all about

[woven patio]

I bought Alpha's to hold long term 5-10 years. If Illuvium is what we all believe it to be.......

[dark vessel]

I’m not a fan of having the sales running concurrently. I think the experience we should go after is that initial fomo drive to be the first to find a rare new Illuvitar from an unreleased set. Let’s make people chasing that feeling pay the 1.5-2x. This is good for the DAO.

And for others that don’t want to pay the 1.5-2x, that’s okay too, they have 90 days to play. No rush.

In conclusion, let me know if I have the proper takeaways for those downvoting:

• $5/$25 preferred, maintain the 5x originally designed.

• 2x multiplier preferred, make Alphas even more exclusive.

• change “Alpha” to something else, I.e. ‘First Edition’ if feasible; don’t change it if it’s an unreasonable lift.

This sum things up?

*to clarify, the majority is still voting in favor as it sits, so no promises anything changes… but I want to make sure I hear and understand the requested tweaks.

[little acorn]

Sums it up for my downvote, thanks for considering the opposing side.

[solid merlin]

yes summed it up pretty nicely for me as well

[surreal tree]

I have to push back one more time on the topic of $5/$20 or $5/$25.

It was never about what I would prefer, of what council preferrs. I think it would be about what numbers are saying. Okay, Aaron/Perry are saying that both could work. But which is better? Let them decide. Did the council see some numbers, done any research? Which one is better? If both could work, what one brings that other don't.

It's not just some prefer this over this. There has to be a strong background on why and we should decide on that.

If community has a vote on what would they rather pick, then we should also have some more data we can learn from and decide what we think is best.

But, in the end, I think it should be Aaron/Perry making those decisions.

[viral garnet]

I may be mistaken on this but the multiplier between standard and mega was multi faceted. One of the primary reasons for the multiplier was to show the value comparisons of the two. One being a T0 while the other an illuvitar with at least 1250 power. The difference between x4 and x5 isnt huge but still maintains the value decision of going for a standard or mega but at the same time reflecting properly the price points that would cater towards accessible to the general public.

So to answer your question, there was consultation made with both Aaron and Perry along with the other councils and feedback from community to land on the price.

[surreal tree]

Like I said, from the beginning I was wondering why the change and where is the data to back that up. And I kinda got those answers.

And as I discussed with JP. I think it should not be up to community or council to decide the multiplier, it should be up to Aaron and Perry to come up with the best solution.

It's hard for me, or anyone to know what would be best if we don't have any backstory or data or numbers.

I do agree there is a lot being changed form Wave 1. We have same accessories and we have T0 with new background. I'm sure that was also taken into account.

[static spire]

I love Illuvium and as a player, I will probably get my Loulura cheaper this way. I can see why players don't have a problem with any of this. Especially those going for the Leaderboard.

As an investor, I am troubled to see this 180 degree turn by council. Alphas in 4 months have gone from being high priced in order to cater to select investors/collectors who want higher priced collectibles to lowering the price so we don't exclude people. These are opposite in intent and that is shown in a massive price decrease from Wave 1 to Wave 2. IMO doing this and not changing "Alpha" to something else has the potential to shake the confidence, at least to some degree and not just in Illuvitars but also in other aspects, of investors. That confidence is important for long-term project success. So, actually, I don't think it is necessarily less important than working on PVP, but realize that I am definitely in the minority on that one.

Anyhow, I spent a long time on this discussion before. I think my views are pretty clearly known already and I have a ton of stuff to do in my life outside of Illuvium, so I should probably just move on.

Thank you to the council members and team who have taken the time to hear me out on this and for your responses to my questions/feedback. I know that you all want the same thing I do, success for Illuvium. I truly do recognize that all of you are very dedicated to both community and project and appreciate that.

[bright sand]

Agree with Torial. Dont want to see Alpha on wave 2. If it is too much work to change for now. They can do what they did for Alphas. Release them as first editions (or whatever they want to call them) then they can come back to it and put the proper stamps on them. They easily rushed it out for Alphas. So dont see why they couldnt do it for wave 2.

Also agree i have spent way too much time on this topic and will leave it in the council and team.

[gentle horizon]

I have also spent too much time discussing about alpha wave 1 in last few days. I believe that alpha status of different waves will be valued the same way as no visual differences in their status between different waves except the actual illuvitars. We cannot say that wave 1 alpha was unique collection as compared to other wave alphas. Market will value them based on thier look so there is a possibility to have higher value of alpha coming from other wave than wave 1. I believe this change is good for new buyers and non alpha holders but it provides no justification to alpha wave 1's premium price. I still believe council need to think about wave 1 alpha buyers and try to make changes for them such a way that justify their 5x price. I hope we will have something coming up regarding this in next few days from council and now leave it to them as i can't keep discussing forever here without any meaningful conclusion. Thanks for hearing us though....

[gentle horizon]

I agree with @static spire here 100%. If we are going ahead with the price change then they need to make sure they labelled it differently and not alpha. Or atleast visual differences like alpha holo stamp for wave 1 alpha and normal stamp for all other wave alpha if they are 4× cheaper than wave 1 alpha

[lone glacier]

Why do you need to make alphas cheaper, if they dont give any other benefit than just been exclusive? By lowering the price you just make them as normal as the other illuvitars and with the extra downside of damaging early wave 1 investors for no reason.

Worst thing you can do is to "plan for the future by mesing with the present investors"

Finding a way to reach both goals : making wave 1 alpha investment worth and create a better experience/collection/investment oportunity for new waves.

If both are not fullfilled lets keep thinking in better options.

[lunar umbra]

Introducing the 24-hour window at the start of each wave for Alpha's, with the premium pricing makes them highly sought after.

Everyone participating would aim to pick up Alpha's instead of non-alpha.

Collectors that are building Alpha Collections would have to buy Wave 1 Alpha's from the existing holders to complete those Alpha Collections.

[lunar umbra]

So you would keep the Alpha's priced at $200.00 USD for the first three days of a sale?

and when we onboard the Web2 audience that pays $5 for a CS GO lootbox, you would spend thousands of dollars marketing a product and the first three days only have < 1% of the player base actually participate?

You would have everyone sitting around watching Kieran open D1SKs on a stream instead of actually playing?

[lone glacier]

Why not, people already pay that much. If they dont want to pay that well there are the non-alphas

Something important to consider is that Illuvitars is not really a game, is a platform for collectors and collectors pay.

Overworld is a game

[devout dock]

Why hasn't this conclusion been drawn with Wave 1 then, where multiple people raised multiple times the price point as way too high where it was always stated, ", Nah, it's that - take it or leave it"?
There must be some solution for people who paid the premium for Wave 1; otherwise, it will leave a sour aftertaste.

[lunar umbra]

It was.

Many of us have been advocates for this type of pricing from the start.

It's a complex conversation involving many individuals with varying opinions.

[lunar umbra]

The solution is that those that paid the premium for Wave 1, price their assets based on what they paid.

This includes many on the team, many on the council, and many in this chat.

Set 1 Wave 2 is not equal to Set 1 Wave 1, they're unique D1SKS, they're unique Illuvitars

[lunar umbra]

@lone glacier thoughts?, here: #1123318798712315915 message

[devout dock]

Well, it might work like this in theory. But in practice, it looks a little different 😉

[lone glacier]

The issue is that a market doesnt work like that. Wave 1 can set prices high but if buyers dont want to pay those prices have to drop until they meet in an agreable point, wich will possibly be close to the rest of all wave 2 and beyond alphas

[little acorn]

I think ultimately doing a dutch auction, so market can always find the right price for alpha is the best (but dev time would make it impossible I think)

[gentle horizon]

Hi all, requesting you to have a look on my feedback idea created few minutes ago and provide your valuable comments and vote. This is regarding step to address concern around premium price of alpha wave 1. Thanks in advance 🙏

[rough merlin]

holo alpha stamp is like the perfect solution for this

[lone glacier]

#1117391394655449178 message

[devout dock]

Exactly my point.

[rough merlin]

This plus the fact that there will be so much more alphas in the next waves makes the w1 alphas much more premium

[rough merlin]

alpha ingame vfx is still on the discussion in illuvium games right? Holo vfx for them and im sure they will get that premium price

[lunar umbra]

Yes, treatments for Alpha both on the Illuvidex and in in-game PFPs is on-going

[gentle horizon]

Can you all provide feedback here: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1123318798712315915

[wind wyvern]

I don’t like bringing standard prices down at all. I think they’re solid where they are, not too high, not too low. It’s hard to pinpoint the perfect number, but $20 for a mega feels sooo cheap

[surreal tree]

Imagine you leave in a country with $1000 average salary and your are middle class. Now imagine you have kids that want to collect Illuvitars. Now, how much packs could you afford them per month? Now, how many Illuvitars would they be able to collect?

Pokémon TCG packs are 11 cards for like $5.
Panini stickers are like 5 stickers for $1.

Now imagine there are countries with much lower standard.

How do we get mass adoption one day?

[lunar umbra]

Now imagine your kids are also playing Overworld, Arena and Zero daily

[last shuttle]

Appreciate everyone taking the time to provide feedback here!

Let's ignore price points for a moment and I would like to focus on the rebranding people are proposing: For everyone saying to rebrand “Alpha” – I ask you why?

The Term Alpha is the Illuvium way of saying 1st Edition. If we were to change the name or branding for this Wave (and onwards), I think this would be a mistake. The entire Set #1 is meant to have Alpha throughout in each wave. If they get rebranded would that not look weird? If people do not like the "Alpha" being in existence anymore, then it can get removed in Set 2. *Think of Pokemon TCG for a second, the entire first 151 original Pokemon came out accross Base Set, Jungle and Fossil - all of which have "1st Edition" stamps for the first printing (which is our "Alpha" stamp - meaning the first releases). *

With a change to branding, there would only be 1 Illuvial line available in Alpha which is Atlas, Axon and Axodon. For a collector, would you want an Alpha Rhamphyre and then (as the example) "1st Edition" or "Beta" Rhamphite and Rhamphy - this would seem quite off and weird to me...

I do understand the principle of keeping Wave 1 exclusive, but not sure changing subsequent waves is the way to go. Perhaps a custom or special holographic pattern visible on the Illuvidex for Wave 1 and then a similar one for the rest of the Waves in Set #1?

[opal nebula]

This is also a really good proposal 🙌💯

[gentle horizon]

I'm wondering if it's necessary to airdrop different types of emote d1sks to different types of alpha holders. For example, do we need to airdrop emote megad1sk to alpha mega d1sk holders and emote standard d1sk to alpha standard holders?

[woven patio]

They are 2 different products now. Original, capped number over 3 day sale. New, unlimited over 24hrs. There has to be some kind of distinction that proves the premium of wave 1 Alpha's. My concern is if wave 2 Alpha's mint similar or lower numbers then wave 1 Alpha's. I don't know what market research the Team/Council have in front of them: hope it indicates many times more sales of wave 2 Alpha's. Then rebranding obsolete.

[versed bough]

From reading everyones comments, I believe the best solution is to offer the Alpha disks for the exact same price as the non alpha disks, for the same 24 hour window/unlimited supply as proposed.

• This would remove any expectation of a "premium product".
• There would be no need to discuss ever changing the price in the future.
• It is 100% fair and accessible to all.
• It would add new strategy dynamics.

It is extremely rare from my experience to see a 1st edition offered at a premium price to the unlimited variants.
By implementing this pricing strategy we would only be falling back in line with market expectations.

I know that some people will lose their shit at the thought of this, mainly due to the price that wave 1 Alphas were marketed at, believe me, I know, I purchased a lot too, but I strongly believe over time those early buyers will be rewarded.

[little acorn]

I could support alpha price to = extended run.

My theory people will fomo with what they can into alpha with what they can afford. They will gain a lot of partial collections.

When they have more disposable income with extended run they will be happy to spend more to try and complete collections.

I think only a few played the collections bonding game in beyond. I was one of them and had fun. If the most fun is one of the ultimate goals of Beyond getting rid of a premium for alpha would be one way to get there.

[surreal tree]

I can support same price for Alpha, but then I would like us to also think about 4 month sale instead of 3 maybe. Or maybe 2+2 months with pause for promo sales or something like that.

[dark vessel]

We spoke with Kieran and Perry about 6 hours ago and got a look at more of the data. It’s really a lot to take in, especially with community feedback. We will be putting out another revision I believe.

[surreal tree]

I guess not much more will be shared apart from that?

[static spire]

I'm glad to read that all the available data is being studied.

[wind wyvern]

Don’t you think this would heavily reduce demand post alpha sale? It’ll make the supply of alphas balloon and non alphas shrink.

Honestly I’m not quite sure what the best solution is. Everything has heavy trade offs. Which is why I don’t love the idea of alpha in the first place, although I get why we have them as it’s decently standard in the card opening space.

[versed bough]

I honestly don't, no. If you purchase the alphas for investment purposes, you are not likely to open them, and even more unlikely to bond them, so if you would like to participate for leaderboard, given the choice you would open and bond an unlimited illuvitar.

As there are both dynamics at play and as I believe we will have more people chasing short term rewards than there will be long term holders in general, there will be far more demand for unlimited variants.
24 hours is also a very small window, and I believe that no matter how vast the demand is in that 24 hours, the demand for unlimited disks over a 3 month period will far outweigh that.
Expanded leaderboard/rewards in wave 2 would also add extra incentive for people to purchase disks/open/bond etc.

Also in addition to that, even if you are correct (which IMO would be an outside probability) and we sold 100k alpha disks and only 20k unlimited disks for example, that would set up a very large arbitrage opportunity, as the unlimited disks would now be the rare collectible that is outnumbered 5 - 1 by the alphas, increasing the collector demand.
Due to this we would likely see sales soar towards the end of the wave, bringing them more in alignment, and as everyone is paying the same for them all anyway, there should be no expectation and no-one feeling like they paid for anything that they did not receive. It was always fair and decided 100% by the market.

[versed bough]

Sorry, further thought....
I do believe that if Alpha sales did outnumber unlimited sales over a 3 month period this would be more of a sign that the leaderboard/reward structure is flawed, not the pricing of the disks themselves.
The Beyond game (leaderboard) would be failing to motivate people to participate (open disks and bond), over simply collecting.

[gentle horizon]

People need to be motivated constantly to compete on leaderboard and continuing beyond game interest... currently, there is almost no volume at all and almost no excitement to compete. I believe they need to keep excitement towards leaderboard and attract more people to bond illuvitars

[versed bough]

Absolutely. Agree 100%

[summer mural]

We will work on this 👍, and I heard the team is working on making the "complete album collection for cool stuff" more important in wave 2. There are also some thoughts of expanding the leaderboard so everyone knows where they are ranked.

[gentle horizon]

They need to make sure to keep demand for any previous waves as well and not just think about new upcoming wave.

[lyric harness]

The lower price on alphas might make people buy them as a future investment, but for normals, as long as the current game rewards continue, there will eventually be no newcomers.

If newcomers needed 5 million points to get on the leaderboard at the end of Wave 4, I don't think anyone would be willing to do it.
Even if we were to offer a reward for the 1000th place, I don't think that would be the solution.
What if in the future you need 10 million point 20 million points?

The solution is.

1. improve game rewards to make it easier for newcomers
2. create a new card game with an emphasis on power and a mechanism to sell it at a higher price on the DEX.
   We are currently bonding all the way down in value to get on the leaders' board, which I think is a really bad thing.

[gentle horizon]

I really like it. Team should focus on these type of things to bring excitement and demand

Power rating and bonding were one of main features of illuvium beyond. They shouldn't be one of the negative aspects of the game for users.

In my view, team should also think about expanding the leaderboard collections by including alpha collection similar to gamestop collection. But the main issue is leaderboard rewards are not sufficient enough to attract users. Team really need to come up with some innovative way of enagaging users to compete on leaderboard.

[summer mural]

One way we could possibly keep players engaged is Wave based rewards, so Wave 2 will have its own leaderboard and only Wave 2 Illuvitars count towards moving up this leaderboard. This would be a time based leaderboard so the rewards would start a week after the sale starts and then ends once the wave 2 sale ends so roughly 3 months and then a new leaderboard starts with Wave 3 etc....

[versed bough]

I don't think I like the sound of that. That would mean that everyone that invested into the previous wave would suddenly get nothing and either have to invest large sums of money into a new wave or it's nice knowing you, goodbye.

Someone could spend the entire 3 months grinding to get to the top, to then lose all of the rewards 1 week later. That would be painful.

[viral garnet]

What if its per set?

[gentle horizon]

Agree

It has to be such a way that demand stays for completed waves along with new wave. We can't ignore completed waves and just focus on running wave.

[summer mural]

No the top 100 stays

[summer mural]

People coming in at wave 5 would find it hard to make it into the top 100 so adding timed wave leaderboards on top of top 100 would be a way for them to collect against other people just coming in

[versed bough]

I agree with this. Having like a master leaderboard that contains the best rewards because it requires the largest investment makes sense.
Having other sub leaderboards with different achievements/rewards makes a lot sense too.

For example if there was an "Alpha" leaderboard where the aim was to gain points by collecting all alphas. Ultimately to gain rank you would have to bond your alphas for the extra points, if the rewards were sweet enough, people may just do this.
This would in turn reduce unbonded supply, whilst also engaging another sub group.
Just one random idea, but the possibilities could be quite endless.

Kind of going off topic here though sorry.

[gentle horizon]

Yes i agree. We need to attract alpha holders to try and bond their illuvitars. Illuvium beyond"s main goal was to create their own unique illuvitars by bonding accessories they like... rewarding this way will encourage alpha investors as well to try and bond their illuvitars

[versed bough]

Exactly.
You could also add the wave 2 leaderboard, if people wanted to compete solely for those rewards, but the master leaderboard (current leaderboard) would remain in tact and total your points across all leaderboards to compete for the best rewards.
The people that participate in the most leaderboards achieve the better position on the master leaderboard and ultimately compete for the best rewards available.

Something for everyone.

[gentle horizon]

I would prefer to have one main leaderboard and other leaderboard for each wave if possible with condition where users can get rewards only in one particular wave board and not all

[versed bough]

I think the bottom line is though, is that you don't drive scarcity through pricing people out, you instead drive demand for unlimited disks by providing a more inclusive/rewarding game that will ultimately incentivise participation and therefore increase sales across the board.

I still stand by equal pricing. No premium.

[versed bough]

I would have to disagree on that one. If someone wanted to compete for all leaderboards, they should be free to do so.

[gentle horizon]

In that case, i think most of those top rankers would be very similar to master leaderboard. It is just my thinking but not sure if that is correct.

[lyric harness]

I think it's very good to have a new reward for each wave.
More game rewards after Wave 2 would be better for newcomers than now.

It would be good to keep the current rewards as they are, but it would be better to change them to monthly or one-time rewards at the end of each Wave.
I don't think there is much competition here.

[versed bough]

Maybe a select few, but I think there would be a lot of variation, there can't be many people that can keep up the investment necessary to top all leaderboards.
Having more leaderboards to target, people could be more specialised and I actually think it would create more diversification if anything.

[versed bough]

I agree. New wave, new leaderboard, new rewards (promos potentially) hopefully 🙏 .

[summer mural]

perhaps the Wave leaderboards could be much bigger like a top 500, the size of the rewards could come from the revenue that is happening from the wave, so say like 5-10% of revenue of disk sales could go to the top 500, more sales equals more rewards. Obviously all this would need to be passed by community and council.

[versed bough]

Sounds good!

[summer mural]

there is so much potential for Beyond!

[versed bough]

I couldn't agree more.

[summer mural]

I remember Kieran saying something like Beyond might be the most addictive game out of all of them, and I think he might be right lol, we just need to get the price down to appeal to a wider audience

[gentle horizon]

Good idea

[lyric harness]

If all the sILV2s are gone, the 5-10% reward would be quite a lot.
I agree with this.
Total point rewards can be reset each season (Wave1-Wave4) so that even newcomers can receive double rewards.

[summer mural]

its was just a quick % off the top of my head. idk what the right % would be

[lunar umbra]

@wind wyvern sent a FR

[wind wyvern]

Accepted

[rough hare]

i dont agree with lowering the non alpha pack prices....that will devalue people accesories they bought and their t0's by suddenly making them much easier to get for less price.......but i do agree with lowering the cost of alpha packs and increasing their supply to be sold......if there is more supply in wave 2 than in wave 1 then you could justify lowering the cost there..............and I read a comment someone said the want it cheaper so they can basically collect everything and they feel bad if the cant.....the whole purpose of a collectors game is there is lots of stuff that is hard to get and for lots of people is out of reach....there would be no leaderboard rewards if everything was easy to obtain and there would be no challenge whatsoever.

Lastly, in my view, wave 1 went very well and there doesn't need to be lots of change......the only problem is that we are in a bear market and that has nothing to do with illuvium....it still did very well considering we are in bear market......only change that needs to happen is alpha price comes down a bit and alpha max supply goes up

[mint whale]

I've thought about this a fair bit. I actually think it's okay to change the price. To me Illuvium is an evolving entity.
If one thing is tried and deemed necessary for improvement, regarding long term success, I see that it is okay to work towards getting it right.
I would hope any discrepancies or affects to those who brought in the first wave were thought of and rectified.
Personally I'm happy for a lower price point, for future adoption and hope the team will work out a way for the first wave alphas to retain value.

[last shuttle]

I wanted to share thoughts from @gentle horizon and @rough hare that were shared in another Feedback idea: (Links to original messages below)

#1123318798712315915 message
#1123318798712315915 message

Summarized Information:

• Wave 2 prices are planned to be reduced significantly compared to Wave 1.
• Keeping accessories the same as Wave 1 will devalue them and potentially devalue bonded illuvitar.
• The rarity of accessories should be considered if prices are drastically reduced in the upcoming wave.
• Making accessories easier and cheaper to obtain will decrease their value and the value of bonded illuvitar with accessories.
• If demand increases, prices may still go up, but they will still be devalued compared to their potential.
• Example: Player bought standard non-alpha disks to gather accessories for bonding and future waves.
• If prices decrease, people will pay less than what the player paid, causing regret for being an early supporter.
• The regret is specifically related to the accessories and not everything else.

[last shuttle]

I believe the accessories are the same for the entire set (Wave 1 to Wave 5) - but I might be wrong on this, so it would not be possible to change the bonus % as this would cause massive confusion... "Why are these identical glasses at different percentage?"

[gentle horizon]

I am not sure if that works practically but if we change rarity factor to match with price reduction factor for accessories then it may work. I can clearly see lots of complexity in accessories valuation but i try to put an example here.

If we buy d1sk at 10 dollars with rarity factor 1 in 1000 for tier 3 accessories and now if we change price of d1sk to 5 dollars then rarity factor for tier 3 accessories would be 1 in 2000. This is my fair guess but not sure how the rarity factor defined.

[viral garnet]

Odds is definitely something the team and council are looking into in light of the reduction in price.

[woven patio]

Wont there always be a shortage of accessories to Illuvitars??? Each illuvitar has 5 Accessory slots, each D1sk has 2 Illuvitars (10 accessory slots) and 3 accessories. Am I missing something??? Already a shortage of decent accessories on market.

[last shuttle]

This has been brought up in Council several times now - all I can say on the topic 🤐

[woven patio]

no worries.

[last shuttle]

Mainly because the focus is on wave 2 pricing right now, but this is definately a topic on the table, just pushed to the corner for now 🙂

[versed bough]

This is correct.
There will never be enough accessories to fully bond every illuvitar. Scarcity is baked in.

[woven patio]

Yes. That is why I am not concerned about the price reduction of wave 2 impacting the price of accessories long term. Prices of many mid tier accessories have risen by multiples recently. Hey how have you already pulled wave 2 Ophisto???lol

[versed bough]

I totally agree.
I photoshopped it 😂 . I couldn't wait.

[gentle horizon]

This point is valid, but it assumes that people will be more interested in bonding accessories in the future for reasons other than leaderboard purposes. This is something that will depend on the community's choices and future speculation. I would still prefer to consider the rarity of these items fairly if we change the pricing drastically.

[woven patio]

Wasn't the original premise of Illuvitars to be fun and enjoyable in utilizing this new tech to burn/combine multiple NFTs into an individualized PFP? Giving power to every individual to create their own NFTs very easily (even I can do it. lol). I'm seeing Leaderboard rewards as an interim incentive to collection and bonding on top of fun and enjoyment. There has been more than enough murmurings, hints, read between the lines over the past 18 months on future possible added utility of Illuvitars and accessories...Not many players have priced that in from what I can tell. My view is; to many people focused on short term price action (plz pump my bags) at the same time they were selling many of their Illuvitars for cents on the dollar. Extend out your event horizon. Illuvium has not even begun its adoption cycle yet.

[gentle horizon]

I agree with @rough hare , this is not about short term gain out of it. We want to make sure that all investors are treated fairly. The main point is accessories are the same in each wave and If we decide to reduce the price of the disk by a significant amount, we need to adjust the rarity factor for the accessories accordingly. This is about fairness for all investors, which will ultimately lead to more confidence in Illuvium.

[surreal tree]

This is my experience from opening 22 D1SKs:

T1S1 - 32 (~48%)
T1S2 - 13 (~20%)
T1S3 - 4 (~6%)
T2S1 - 9 (~14%)
T2S2 - 6 (~9%)
T2S3 - 1 (~2%)
T3S1 - 1 (~2%)

For a casual player that can't spend much, how are we going to make them buy more D1SKs if they can't get any decent accessories? I'm already considering not buying any D1SKs and just getting Illuvitars from secondary, if the drop rate of accessories is worse, i'm even more closer to that as I know I can't get anything good.

Also, if we are going to make changes to accessory drop rate, we should reconsider pricing multiplier for Mega compared to Standard.

[gentle horizon]

In Wave 2, you will get more disks, which means you will have a better chance of getting many good Illuvitars. The rarity drop rates of Illuvitars will not be changed. However, if the price of Wave 2 disk is 3 times lower than the price of Wave 1 disk, then the rarity drop rates atleast for accessories would need to be adjusted to match the price reduction. In this case, you would have the same chance of getting similar accessories in 3 attempts in Wave 2 as you would have in 1 attempt in Wave 1. The benefit of buying Wave 2 disk is that you will get 3 Illuvitars, instead of just 1.

I have added comparison points here as per my understanding for clarification

[viral garnet]

Arent you just talking about cost compared to price of wave 1. If theres no change in rarity the chances remain the same for wave 1 or wave 2.

[gentle horizon]

Yes for Illuvitars as we are not changing rarity but i try to mention that rarity drop rate for accessories

[viral garnet]

I may have missed a discussion here. Are you guys looking to change the contents of the d1sks? I saw you mention 3 illuvitars in wave 2 which I havent heard any push to do so yet.

[gentle horizon]

No. I was refering to chances to get similar accessories in wave 2 as compare to wave 1.

[viral garnet]

The rarity hasnt changed as well so why would it be different?

[gentle horizon]

Rarity adjustment for accessories in wave 2 to match with drastically reduced wave 2 disk price

I am giving an example that if we agree to change rarity for accessories in wave 2 for price adjustment then also it wouldn't look bad for anyone

[surreal tree]

3 times lower prices does not mean we will sell 3 times the D1SKs and therefore we should lower the rarity so that there is a similar amount of tier 5 accessories in every wave.

What happens if we get mass adoption and we start selling even more D1SKs, should we then lower the drop rate for accessories once again?

It does suck that accessories will fall down in price. There has to be something else for them, burning mechanics or something. We heard that team is working on that as well.

But we can't lower the drop rate. We just can't. I spent ~$1000 and I have zero decent accessories. So you're saying I should spend another $1000 to not get any decent accessories once again. That is not how we get to mass adoption....

[gentle horizon]

I may not be getting bigger picture here regarding accessories. Sorry if that is not the perfect solution. Its just my thought based on my assumptions but i may have missed some factors which are important.

[surreal tree]

I think that lower prices will crash down prices of accessories on second market even more. And that's a bit of a problem, but I think we have to leave with that. Lowering drop rates is not a solution in my opinion. It should not be.

Main problem with accessories is that not many people are bonding. Because there is only 100 people on the leaderboard that have to bond to stay there. What is the iniciative to bond for everybody else. When there is something to do with accessories, the prices on secondary will be fixed automatically and more people will want to buy D1SKs instead of buying Illuvitars off secondary.

[earnest rivet]

I would like to see the same drop rates for accessories in wave 2.

The purpose of lowering prices for wave 2 D1sks was to make Beyond "fun, accessible, and supportive of collectors" (quotes from the rationale section of this ICCP).

Lowering drop rates for powerful accessories will mean: (i) less fun, I would hate to open several D1isks to only find clown noses and silver coins, it kind of takes me back to only pulling Archies and Dokas during the Gamestop promo, and (ii) less access by having fewer accessories to choose from to bond and making it less appealing for new players bond and pursue leaderboard.

I'm aware that the majority of people here are holding good accessories and have a spot on the leaderboard but if we want more people to join Beyond and pursue the leaderboard I see keeping the droprates equal as a positive even if it means that current prices drop.

[surreal tree]

I opened 22 D1SKs as you can see above. Money was spent on Alpha and secondary in the end.

What are the current chances to get Rarest Illuvitar in a Wave? What are the chances of getting rarest Illuvitar in pokemon or mtg or yugioh? I would love to see some numbers.

Don’t forget that even the rarest Illuvitars has 3 expresions, can be holo, can have 15 different background stages, etc.

The price of rare will go up as we have more people playing.

How many Rhamphyres are there? 300? a bit more?

That means that best case scenario only 300 people will be able to finish the set 1 collection. I find that a bit pointless if you ask me. What happens when we have for example 100k players. And only 0.3% of them can collect all the collectibles in a collection game?

At the same time, we are not tcg, we don’t have other use cases for Illuvitars currently. For now it’s a collection game and Illuvium pfp. You can’t play a collection game if it’s impossible to collect….

[summer mural]

I agree, oh and if you do want to complete a collection it will cost you like $5,000. As of right now Beyond is not accessible to most people it's a whales game. And unless we drop the price and add better odds of getting rarer Illuvitars it will stay that way

Oh and the $5k is only to collect 1 wave out of many. Prices are stupid right now and even $5-$20 is probably not low enough to attract a regular gamer

If someone spends $1000 in a 3 month span per wave they should be really close to collecting at least one of each Illuvitar.

[quaint jungle]

As of now it would cost you 5k but if you where opening them in the beginning and reselling what you didnt need you could have a collection below 5k.

Lowering the disk cost is one thing but i think there also needs to be a marketing strategy to lure more people in. If the secendory market was more active then it shouldnt even matter how much a disk would cost.

[summer mural]

I added in having to buy a Rhamphyre at 2k . But yeah 3-4k is what I spent to collect almost all Illuvitars with each expression except Rhamphyre. And I mostly bought on secondary

[surreal tree]

Remember that for full collection there is 3 versions of Rhamphyre but yeah, silly expensive and never even close to mass adoption at this rate….

But it’s hard to market Illuvitars to the world when we still don’t have the game out. But I think it will be easier with lower prices at least.

[gentle horizon]

👆

[surreal tree]

But we have unobtainable Illuvitars....

There is only 22 Blazing Rhamphyres. That means only 22 people will ever fill the entire Wave 1 album at the most.

There will never be any Rhamphyres with Tier 5 Stage 3 background.
There will never be any Rhamphyres with Tier 5 Stage 2 background.
There will never be any Rhamphyres with Tier 4 Stage 3 background.
There will only be 1 ever Rhamphyre that is Holo and doesn't have Tier 1 background.

In the end it's all about mass adoption. And we are not getting there with current pricing.

In theory we lower the prices 5x and in the end we sell 5x D1SKs (which won't happen).

There would be around 1500 Ophistos. Is that really that bad???

If you aiming for top spot of the leaderboard and you want to get the best and the rarest Illuvitars. There will still be fun for you. As we might get Ophisto with Tier 5 Stage 3 background. Maybe we get a holo with Tier 4 background. Maybe more than 22 people will be able to finish the Squid line. How is that a bad thing?

There will always be "chasing and trying to grind for your next target". It will never be easily obtainable.

I would low to hear from @versed bough about what he thinks. Would it be boring if there was 5x more Rhamphyres??

[versed bough]

I would low to hear from @Alexa about what he thinks. Would it be boring if there was 5x more Rhamphyres??

That would make approx, 1120 total, 56 holo, 6 of those being blazing holos (statistically).
I would say that was acceptable, at least from my perspective.

Take this illuvitar that I have attached. The odds, as you can see are over 1 in 10,000,000 to pull this, even increasing the odds 5x, it is still considered a small miracle to pull this thing, so there would absolutely still be high end "grail" variants to pursue.

I really don't see why we can't cater to both aspects, the math works out and demonstrates that it is possible.

On another note, if we do lower the price of the disks, I don't believe that we should change the drop rates for accessories.
This act would completely negate the purpose of lowering the price, which effectively increases drop rates without having to actually increase the drop rates, giving people the ability to acquire the same items for less. To lower the price and reduce drop rates is completely counter intuitive and nonsensical IMO.

[upbeat bison]

You brought up TCGs and tried to compare it to Illuvitars. This is an incredibly wrong argument to make.

[surreal tree]

I’m saying that current prices will not bring us mass adoption.

Examples like: “there are really rare cards so it has to work” are not good. If you want to compare, give us some numbers. How much packs you need to purchase to get the rarest cards, how much does a pack cost, what are the sales like, how much is that rarest card selling for? And then compare that to Illuvium Beyond.

[upbeat bison]

Not true. Illuvium Beyond is collectible JPEGs

TCGs are games. It's in the name.

[surreal tree]

What happens when we get new accessories in Set 2 and 90% of the time you’re getting a headband? Are we fixing drop rates once again then so it’s fair for those that bought D1SKs 2 years ago?

[versed bough]

the price drop already would make illuvitars much easier to get..and that is the biggest point of the price change

It would, but I would have to disagree on that being the biggest point.
Accessories/bonding/leaderboard is the backbone of the game itself. If accessories become increasingly more unobtainable than the illuvitars themselves, the gaming aspect will fall flat and it will fail to get that many people enthusiastic about participating.

the point is to always keep in mind to always try to not screw your previous buyers

Everyone is fully aware of the predicament at this point and I don't believe anyone is trying to screw anyone.
The problem is, in looking after the early buyers of accessories, you are harming the viability of the game itself.
So what do you do. Serve the best interests of the game or the interests of the earlier investors. Based on all available information, I honestly believe you cannot do both.

I would also like to clarify. If you didn't own any accessories from wave 1, would you be objecting to the increased supply next wave?
Do you believe that making rarer accessories even more difficult to obtain will improve the Beyond experience for anyone?

[upbeat bison]

The reserved list in magic has nothing to do with the game becoming hugely ppopular.
It has also really damages the accessibility of multiple game formats (legacy and vintage) to the point of Vintage having almost 0 sanctioned play and Legacy being too expensive for most players to get into

Source: Former Legacy and vintage specialist

[versed bough]

Bang on 👍
The creators of the game themselves state that creating the "reserve list" is one of their biggest regrets.

[upbeat bison]

I said those formats are not very accessible. If you knew anything about the game you would realize that there are a lot of different formats to play

But it is very obvious you are completely clueless on the topic

Once again the reserved list had 0 effect on why the game is popular today and one could argue it has actually damaged it (this is a long and complicated topic though)

You're literally talking to someone who was one of the best legacy and vintage players in the pacific northwest.

The reserved list is not why they are popular

[versed bough]

you are trying to mental gymnastics but facts are facts

My god, the irony is incredible. You have to be trolling. At least I hope you are.

[upbeat bison]

If you want to make a reserved list argument about what it's positive effect has been it is this

"The reserved list has ensured that prices of cards on said list has increased over time due to the games rising popularity and demand for these cards'

And like I stated earlier there are also negatives to this approach. It is a very divisive topic

You don't even know what the reserved list is then or what the games formats are

The reserved list doesn't effect the vast majority of MTG players one bit. Those cards are only usable in very niche formats that have become very small because of it

No. I just happen to know what I am talking about in this area due to my experience and expertise

I already said the reserved list topic has be around forever and is very divisive. It has nothing to do with the success of the game though

No you're just completely out of your depth of knowledge here.

Maybe you should look up what the reserved list actually is and what is on it. That'd be a good start

It's tough to answer questions that are nonsensical and come from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

You were trying to make the point that the reserved list is why the game is popular. That is just incorrect

Once again. You don't know who you are talking to and are making yourself look silly.

It's not a major reason why at all.

I've had my fun completely discrediting you as a person so I guess my work is done here

[gentle horizon]

Can we stop fighting and concentrate on actual topic please?

[upbeat bison]

We aren't involved in either

Well I'm here because you keep stating incorrect things when trying to prove whatever point you have. Im just keeping the community informed

Been there done that. It didn't stick

[versed bough]

I will defend any argument that I deem to be valid, regardless of where it is coming from.

[upbeat bison]

I would barely classify myself as a token holder. I purchased one because it is required in order to run for council

[versed bough]

Whatever you say Bobbie.

[solid merlin]

@rough hare I think you need to cool yourself down a bit. Don't come here inflating your sense of self over others. You can be on the top 10 leaderboard or wtv you are in no position to be calling out people trolls, please leave that toxicity out of here. Even worse is that the biggest troll I see in here is you. If you can't accept different opinions than yours then don't argue with people. We're here to try help build the best game ever, what we need is positivity not people bashing one another.

[solid merlin]

I completely disagree with you on that regard and you just have to accept that is my opinion and others as well, but that is not the matter here. If you wanna argue with people please use other channels and try to keep this thread clean.

[versed bough]

In an effort to get the thread back on course, I would just like to ask the following questions. These questions are based on the premise that we will be implementing a considerable price drop for all disks in wave 2.
The questions are also mainly directed to anyone that supports decreasing the drop rates of rare accessories in wave 2 in an effort to support the current accessory market values.
I did post some of these questions previously, but I feel that they will likely get lost due to what transpired here recently.

Firstly, if you did not own any accessories from wave 1, would you object to their increased supply/price reduction next wave?

If you answer no, this then leads the question, are you making the objection for the betterment of the game or to preserve the value of your own accessories?

If you believe that we can serve both interests simultaneously, consider the following:
In preserving the value of current accessories, we would have to increase the difficulty of obtaining accessories from disks in wave 2, which would in turn make them far more expensive in relation to illuvitars when compared to wave 1.

This leads to my last question:
Do you believe that making rarer accessories even more difficult and expensive to obtain will improve the Beyond experience for anyone other than those that already own them, and if so can you please explain how.

Thanks.

That's fine. Thanks for your feedback.

[last shuttle]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and can believe different solutions might be best for "X" & "Y" reasons (or the entire alphabet of reasons).

I encourage everyone to remain respectful of others opinions and try to understand where they are coming from. As in life, some people will not agree and that is 100% okay, there is no 100% RIGHT and 100% WRONG - it is all a matter of perception

[rough merlin]

Im for price reductions of the alphas disks they should be 2x - 3x non alpha price

[solid merlin]

I think it's ok to lower a bit the price of the non alphas as well. These things are hard to evaluate... It's really hard to pin point the best price tag for things from the get go. Now that wave 1 has ended we have more data available and I also feel that a slightly lower price tag suits better this product.

[versed bough]

It does look like most agree that price reductions are the way forward for wave 2.
Agreeing on the severity of those price cuts and the potential implications is where it gets difficult.
The more opinions we can get on the subject the better. Can only help us all to make better decisions.

[solid merlin]

I personally think it's fine. Nothing was set in stone. They gave us no guarantee that there would be no changes. If anyone believed and invested in this project was on their own account. We're currently in a price discovery phase, all this web3 gaming is new who knows how to price these things in the sweet spot. As for the devaluation on the accessories I think we need to take that bullet in our bags for the well being of the game.

[versed bough]

I agree, that's the way I am leaning too.

[lyric harness]

The accessories are still the same, and the price of the alpha is 1.5 to 2x, and Cheaper normal D1sks.
I support it.

If we prioritise newcomers and aim for 10 to 20x the number of users we have now in the future, I think that Wave1 buyers will also benefit.

I think even Mega's accessories can be made rare+1.
If good accessories are available on the market or if you own them, I think more people will become interested in illuvitars.

We can create a situation where Mega continues to sell well, and I don't think it's a problem if Standard doesn't sell at all.

I think the 5-10% game reward that Fight4ETH said is a very good idea to get more interest in illuvitars.
This means that even those who purchased WAVE1 can benefit from purchasing WAVE2 or later.
And this will increase newcomers.

I think The chance of winning a background rare should be increased by 1.2 to 2x.
I don't think it's good not to have the best Phamphyre.

WAVE1 buyer loses money compared to WAVE2, this is due to WAVE1 price mistake
But if you think about it in 5years' time, for example, you might lose money compared to Wave2, but as the number of users increases, I think that will not be the case for other Waves.
If you choose not to change anything, it will be difficult to acquire the number of users, and illuvitars will fail.

Create Non-Bonding illuvitars in Album.
If you do, you can add illuvitars of α, and I think it will become even more difficult to compete.(α regardless of standard, rare things are rare)
And it may also motivate people who purchased α to participate in the leaderboard.

I don't know if this idea will work, and I don't know if we can get 20x more users, I make mistakes a lot and I try to come up with different solutions from there.

I'm glad this proposed improvement was made before the start of Wave2, I thought they were going to change it after seeing Wave2 sales, but that would have caused more damage.

Game rewards should definitely be increased, for example, if the reward amount is set at the beginning, it could be a double premium reward of that until Wave2-4 for a limited time.(Only weekly rewards for each WAVE)
The current rewards are too bad.

I think it's a boon for people who still intend to buy in the future.
I think it's a pretty terrible proposition for people who don't intend to buy again.

[versed bough]

Some really good ideas there!

I also really like the idea of 5-10% rewards. A form of revenue distribution within the Beyond ecosystem.
It should go a long way to incentivise new participants as it will contribute to providing much better rewards.
It would also be a fair system as the people paying the most into the project would receive the highest rewards.
There would also be more funds available to provide more paid positions on the leaderboard.

If unlimited mega disks were priced at $40 and Alpha mega disks at $80, I think that looks like it could be acceptable based on current feedback.
Maybe if we could also look at increasing the the drop rates slightly across the board which would have the extra added benefit of slightly increasing the supply of both illuvitars and accessories, but not so much to be too impactful to cause concern, but noticeable enough to increase the desirability of opening disks, especially as they will also be cheaper.
We can then reevaluate after wave 2 and see where we go from there.

Consecutive small steps rather than a one giant leap approach maybe the best way to go.

Any thoughts/objections welcome.

[lyric harness]

👍

[surreal tree]

I like the idea of Album Collections where you can only place unbonded Illuvitars. I think that might create even more interest for leaderboards, new collections and Illuvitars as you would need to have both unbonded and bonded Illuvitars if you really want to compete for higher place on the leaderboard. I would also make more sense to hold on to duplicates. As now the only reason to hold on to duplicate Illuvitars is investment side of it.

But I can't see a world where the D1SKs are the same price as now and we get mass adoption. I just don't think we can get there without significant price drop.

Is it possible to find out how many of which accessory was burned until now? To better see which accessories people are bonding and which people don't?

[opal hawk]

This would be a follow up IIP that is to be introduced once this IIP is passed íf there is enough interest in the subject. Please stick to the previous discussion in this channel as unrelated topics will make this thread confusing.

[livid tinsel]

My 8 and 10-year-olds collect pokemon cards and have small illuvitar collections that they enjoy. Wave 1 prices were out-of-reach for them, so they stuck with pokemon cards when it came to spending their allowance $$, and I think that was the better decision for them. Illuvitar d1sks were gifts or could be earned from me.

A question I always ask myself when it comes to Illuvium, is "What would it take for this to become popular mainstream for kids similar to my own?" To me, the age 8-16 demographic is important for this type of gaming and collecting to take off. What if pokemon hadn't captured this age range?

Answering this question for the wave 2 d1sks isn't easy, but lower pricing is sure a good start. The wave 1 pricing strategy and even this wave 2 proposed pricing very much seem to target web3 enthusiasts who are already used to paying this type of money for NFTs (primarily people in the 30-45 age range, but stretching out to around 20-55?)

Priced even 20% lower than this proposal would help put the pricing in-line with a pack of pokemon cards ($4 MSRP). Still though, there are only two illuvitars per d1sk, so the perceived value will be lower to many people. At that price would my kids buy these over pokemon packs? Maybe occasionally, but I'd expect it to be rare still.

I know others don't believe kids are a good target demographic for Illuvium, but hopefully a few appreciate looking at it through this lens. In general, I think that driving higher volume at lower prices across the board will be best for adoption across the whole ecosystem. We won't have a wave 2 illuvitar with a $2k floor during the sale with this strategy, but is that attractive to new entrants? There would still be room for ultra-rare T5 illuvitar, S3 expression, T5 background, holo illuvitar pulls and having a few more of those types of illuvitars in existence would make things interesting in a new way.

[surreal tree]

I think you make a great point and something I was trying to tell all along.

For mass adoption we need kids collecting, and kids don't have this amount of money, and if they can't collect, they won't be here.

We need to have something for kids and something for whales. But for mass adoption, prices need to go down by a lot.

[versed bough]

I agree with practically everything in your post.
The only thing that concerns me in the short term is although we could drop prices to $2 disk, very few kids actually know about the product and are still highly unlikely to participate. Would this not be a step to make in the future once we gain more adoption.

I believe if we gradually reduce prices every wave, price will eventually meet adoption, at a time when adoption is more likely (after public beta etc). Rather than dropping prices significantly all at once and completely upsetting the current balance/community.

Overall I agree with the destination, it's more the journey of how we get there.

[livid tinsel]

Yeah, this makes good sense to me.

[surreal tree]

I somewhat agree with you Alexa but my thinking was different. If we lower the price now by a lot. We are probably going to lose some money as there will be less money spent. But we are more likely to attract new players/collectors into the ecosystem. We're not even close to mass adoption before the games are out. But are we ready to sacrifice a bit of money for a bit more exposure?

Also, another question? How does it look if we change the price every time? Nick (I think) already said we want this ICCP to last for next couple of years, we want to get it right. But the problem I see are accessories once again. There is already a lot of people complaining how it's not fair to lower the price because of accessories. What happens with them if you know that in next wave they will be cheaper, and then in next even more cheaper? Nobody outside of Leaderboard will have no use for them as they will just plummet in value.

[livid tinsel]

May be important to revisit pricing just once per set rather than each wave if accessories or other assets are tied to the set.

[versed bough]

I think you (and some others) are hung up on thinking we can't achieve mass adoption because of what you see happening in the market right now during what has been a very harsh bear market

I honestly don't think that is the case. People just recognise that companies such as Pokemon have adopted a completely different pricing strategy and they have been the most successful of anyone that has come before or after, albeit they do have a TCG.

Is this huge bear market deterring kids or adults alike from purchasing Pokemon packs? Not a chance.
A lot of people here are looking to tap that same market, where bear markets no longer impact your sales. That is when you have true adoption.

[versed bough]

But are we ready to sacrifice a bit of money for a bit more exposure?

I personally would certainly be open to the idea, but I don't think dropping prices alone would gain any more exposure necessarily. It may encourage the already exposed to purchase that otherwise didn't due to the high pricing, but we would still need huge marketing efforts to get the new pricing out there.

I'm also not sure many people would be willing to make that sacrifice in one swoop, hence why I suggest a slow and steady approach, which does lead to your next point.

Also, another question? How does it look if we change the price every time? Nick (I think) already said we want this ICCP to last for next couple of years, we want to get it right

This does make sense and I fully understand where Nick is coming from, but this does make it extremely difficult and puts us at a kind of crossroads right now, where we either target true mass adoption, where everyone can get involved at affordable prices or we remain what I believe a niche product targeted at adult/crypto/investor/collectors. Could still do amazingly well targeting that market, don't get me wrong, however I do prefer the mass adoption route personally. Getting them in as many hands as possible, figuratively speaking.

If the decision has to be made now to last 2 years, I would have to go with huge price reductions and take the consequences of that.

[upbeat bison]

With PB3 (PvP) coming in Q3 and Open Beta in Q4 the exposure will come. The question becomes what price do we want new people in the Illuvium ecosystem to see when they first get here.

[gentle horizon]

I have been also thinking on similar line as well... lets see 👀

[versed bough]

this is a brand new project in a brand new space, to be expecting mass adoption right out the gate would be ridiculous

I don't think anybody is.

All collectibles including Pokemon suffer during bear markets, that is a fact

Collector/investment market sure, retail, no. The sales data is there.
The reason why Beyond will remain susceptible to bear markets is that it is solely targeting the collector/investment market rather than the retail market.

[versed bough]

if we were in a bull market right now, illuvium would be suggesting raising the price and not lowering it, some people clearly dont understand how crazy bull markets are and the next one is expected to be even crazier than usual and people would flood into the market at the higher prices

I think they do, most here have just been through a bull market, they are likely experiencing some of the pain that comes from the bear after having paid over inflated prices. I would not be supporting elevating prices in a bull run, very bad idea for numerous reasons.

being the high end brand is by far the best strategy for illuvium and they will make tons of money off the whales wanting to get the rare illuvitars.....if people ruin that aura of the project....a different game will do it and the big money players will go there instead

Yes, let's just forget that high end Pokemon cards are a thing.
You can target both markets, it has been demonstrated.

collector/investment market is a major part of the overall market and ecosystem so they dont get to just be disccarded to win your argument......also where do you get your data of sales on the retail side of things? I highly doubt that is a true statement

Yes, but I am specifically referring to retail sales, I clearly stated, is the bear market effecting kids purchasing packs, YOU brought up the collectibles (Unrelated) to bolster your own argument.
The only one determined to win an argument here is you. I could not care less. I'm simply trying to have a constructive conversation to find solutions to our perceived problems. That is all.

"In fiscal year 2020/2021, the Pokemon Company sold 3.7 billion Pokemon cards worldwide (as of the end of March 2021)" - PokeGuardian

"The Pokemon Company has released its latest figures report, revealing a record 9.7 billion Pokemon cards were produced from March 2022 to March 2023! This is the third year in a row Pokemon has broken its annual record." - PokeBeach

There you go. Through one of the largest bear markets we have ever seen, Pokemon cards continue to outpace year on year.

[versed bough]

PokeGuardian. Actual Sales

And when I post them what next 🤣

we are a crypto project...kids are not gonna be the target

Who here wants to exclude children as a demographic?

But anyone with a thinking brain knows that they are not retailing at $0.01 😆

It may be a roast if it was coming from anyone other than yourself.
It just looks foolish and demonstrates your own immaturity.

It really wasn't 🤦‍♂️ 😆

[versed bough]

who says exclude? do you know what a main target audience is or no? you dont structure your whole plan around your least likely consumers....this is what is called "how to go bankrupt" when people do that

I failed to address this:
Semantics. By falling outside of the target demographic, this is in effect excluding them from the target demographic.
Failing to include children into the target demographic is what you would call going bankrupt.

me and you are the target consumer...

For now.

Anyway, good night. Enough for one day 😴

[lyric harness]

Alexa calm down
there is no point in arguing with him.

I agree with BinetCauchy.
If the price was 80$, I think there would be a lot fewer WAVE2 buyers if they knew that the price could go down further
If they decide to go much lower, there is no doubt that the price will be maintained, making it easier for newcomers to buy as an investment for the future.
My one concern is whether there will be newcomers with no marketing at all at the moment.
And the Wave2 buyers will probably be Wave1 buyers, and will they really want to buy Wave2 when they see it at a significantly reduced price?
I think Wave2 should be delayed until the PB release.... But I think this is difficult.

[versed bough]

https://tenor.com/view/chill-destress-woosah-calm-down-relax-gif-5102209

[lunar umbra]

Hey team, fyi the latest discussions involve maintaining the positioning of Beyond as a Web3 first/NFT Collectors Project.

In conjunction with a clearly defined audience, the aim is to double down on communicating the value prop by way of Collection Achievements (and the associated In-game Rewards)

Expect an update to follow.

At this point I'd hold fire on feedback with respect to the original post as it's been updated significantly based on feedback and on-going discussion.

[last shuttle]

Everyone will have an opinion on the subject, however, I will say one major thing to consider is that we need to focus on the future and not the past. The goal has always been to reach the masses and Illuvium Beyond is currently* a "whales game" as the community has deemed it.

Wave 1 is done and gone - the only way to get anything from Wave 1 will be from the secondary market.

1 person spending $10k (dayuum great job being in the top 10 - i think you mentioned it previously here)

VS.

1,000 people spending $10 or more. Accessibility is the way to encourage future growth in subsequent waves and bring more people into the ecosystem

Also - no need to "Argue" with people, everyone has their opinion and trying to force them to change their mind can be very tough... as you put it "like hitting them in the head with a hammer" 😉

Just to be sure, you are referring to the potential drop in D1sk prices correct?

[gentle horizon]

Looking forward to it

[last shuttle]

Meaning, you bought let's say 1,000 wave 1 d1sks .... that would net you 3,000 accessories.

(HYPOTHETICAL - this is not concrete or definitive) This means that in Wave 2, if the d1sk prices are reduced by half (your example = "half price"), that someone would need to only buy 500 wave 2 d1sks to get the same 3,000 accessories

Just putting it in laymans terms (simplified as much as possible)

WEN will you pass Alexa on the leaderboard?!?! lol

Ya the main reason people bulked up on basic D1sks was for the Accessories to help with the leaderboard... These accessories will be available in 4 more waves before set 1 is complete, so they will continue to flood the market.

The only (not meant to be insensitive when I say this) consolation prize you have over others right now is the large sum of Wave 1 Illuvitars and Zeros (with Wave 1 backgrounds) you pulled.

[last shuttle]

This was in place since the beginning I believe, it is not new that the T0s were going to have unique backgrounds.
The only way to avoid issues for accessories would be changing the colors (keeping the assets the same size and type), but not sure this is feasible either.
As indicated before, there are tons of discussions going on for this, and it has already changed from the past iterations.

Appreciate you answer my questions this evening!

Same Tier0s - Different Backgrounds 🙂

[livid tinsel]

MTG was huge at school when I was 12 and started collecting/playing with my 9 year old brother and many other kids in the 9-12 range. Since then, maybe pokemon has dominated that age range, but I'm fairly confident that kids were an important market to get MTG off the ground.

[mint whale]

Will there ever be new accessories? I was hoping for some different ones.

[summer mural]

I think every set will have new accessories

[mint whale]

I realised I misunderstood that.

So each set will have different ones, and we are currently in set 1, wave 2?

[summer mural]

Yup

[mint whale]

Cool thanks.