Pack Opening Alternative

[valid sail]

Context
I am submitting this idea publicly for feedback from the Community just to see what people think about it generally as I have no idea what the sentiment is on it (hence why I am not submitting it internally to the council) this is just a preliminary feedback gathering stage of an idea...

Problem
Currently if someone wants to spend a lot of money in our game very quickly they cannot do so.
Lets say an overworld run is $20 and I'm a whale and want to spend $5k, if an average speed run was 20mins it would take me 10 days straight to spend that and I'd have to play for 8hrs a day straight! Maybe I dont care for playing overworld but just want to spend a bunch of money fast and right now I cannot. We have put a time game on how fast we can receive revenue.

Idea
We sell an actual pack opening experience.
Pay in fuel same as a travel, maybe have to pay some shard or shard curing Fuel cost also.
Either it is more expensive but offers same average value of an equivalent travel.
Or it is at the same price but offers less value than an equivalent travel.

This way those with less interest in doing runs but who want to spend a lot of money very fast have a way of doing so.

Potential Issues

• Illuvials are on a supply curve and this would affect the supply curve harshly, this can be solved by the Pack Openings not affecting the supply curve of Illuvials, only Overworld travel does, but the pack openings themselves are still effected by the supply curve.
  -People will lose incentive to actually do Overworld runs, this feels like a concern that will arise but I think its the opposite, those that dont want to do the runs will open packs at increased cost, those that want to profit from Overworld can grind overworld and through their time are getting better value assets in exchange for extra time expended (with more skillfully runners optimising further) and actually creating more arbitrage opportunities for those that do want to grind Overworld for profit

Potential Upside
Can bring in greater revenue to ILV Stakers and IZ Land Holders

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this idea
This is still just a very rough idea

[oak lake]

My initial reaction to this is the illuvidex is there for individuals to straight up buy illuvials ect. If the demand to buy off the illuvidex is high then the incentive for others to farm OW will meet this demand increasing revenue overall. I don't see packs having a positive impact personally.

[valid sail]

when buying a pack 95% of revenue goes to DAO
when buying on secondary 3% goes to the DAO

that would be my devils advocate to that response, but I think it is a v fair concern

[half portal]

Personal opinion: I would rather just open packs if i have the opportunity to do so rather than spend hundreds of hours in Overworld to complete my collection.

I would still play a bit of Overworld for the exploration but if this pack opening option would be available, i'd probably use it more than Overworld runs, so i think it's a good discussion here.

I don't know how that would affect the budget, or the technical implementations of this idea (towards NFTs value, bonding curve etc) but i think it would be cool to have the option.

My 2 cents...

[wispy jungle]

I think you could have a pack opening Gatcha experience but in a game structure. We spoke about it at length here https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1055081063644397629

[tiny haven]

I honestly believe it’s really cool to know all illuvials were caught in the wild. We need to cater to the majority which are not in the whale category. Just my 2 cents

[wispy jungle]

No downvotes but @mossy mango Fairly pointed out they can do a lot of things but want to explore these additionally after the game launch.

[crisp relic]

i personally dont like grinding

and OW is such a grind

[tiny haven]

Illuvidex is there for those who don’t want to grind OW

[valid sail]

whales are the majority of our revenue though still...

and monetisation is important

[oak lake]

When the Arena goes mobile its certainly something to consider. We'll need a way for mobile players to build decks. Packs could be the solution.

[tiny haven]

Cheap travel fees will hopefully allure more people to grind OW to then sell to whales if there is demand

[crisp relic]

OW has been in development for almost 2 years and many $$millions

it is d1sk with extra steps

[valid sail]

Really great to see, had totally missed this one, and clearly has the upvotes and is basically the same idea but for mobile only

Makes a ton of sense for when the game does come to mobile, i think its genius, great shout

what are your thoughts on implementing this option on launch and not just later when game goes mobile so that we arent putting a time gate on launch on how much money you can give directly to the project?

[valid sail]

cheap travel is great for accessibility to a wider audience and I am all for it personally

but i think it hurts our whale population who may want to spend more money faster, giving them a way to do so is win win

[oak lake]

Yeah I like this idea too 🙂

[lyric cypress]

My point of view it is that will kill OW, a lots of people( inclusive me) I will play OW to catch illuvium and sell to illuviudex (I like to play OW it’s relaxing for me also it’s possible to make some profit)

[crisp relic]

it will

[bold totem]

I don't think it would work well with the deflationary nature of Illuvials.
It also takes away from the story line imo. I prefer whales to buy from players on the Illuvidex. I understand that is less money in Illuvium's pocket but if it was going to be pack opening then may as well have not spent the time on even building OW.

[valid sail]

If this idea is implemented then those that do want to play Overworld will have more chance of making profit as they can get the same value for cheaper by spending their time in overworld and then sell those illuvials on secondary essentially getting paid for their time...

This proposal adds value to Overworld Grinders and adds Value to Land owners and ILV stakers in the ability to absorb more revenue

[crisp relic]

i think it will kill common illuvials price. the whales are going to flood the market, they only care about rare illuvials

[valid sail]

what issues does it cause with illuvials being deflationary?

[tiny haven]

I agree less money upfront but long term popularity from casuals can not be understated. Possibly there could be a sponsor opportunity for those willing to grind for whales

[valid sail]

money upfront when low on runway is kinda a strong priority since securing future runway is of top priority for the longevity of the project

[half portal]

I like @tiny haven approach on the fact that being able to say all of the Illuvials NFTs come from the wild is really cool and i think adds value to the NFTs, the NFT didn't only cost money to get but also some skill to some extent.

On the other hand I also think that this idea could be implemented very well on mobile if we go with some sort of monetization model like Yu-Gi-Oh Master Duel except the ingame currency would be fuel.

Great chats everyone! please keep it going, love to see all those valuable opinions!

[crisp relic]

my observation from how whales interact with NFT. They buy loads of pre reveal NFTs. hold to reveal. dump the floor and buy rares, grails and 1/1. the same will happen to illuvidex

people who are grinding are gonna be driven out

[craggy jasper]

How about a lending system where a whale can buy fuel and Illuvials and have other spend the time to go out to the overworld and farm it. Share the returns.

[crisp relic]

thats scholarship

[lyric cypress]

I have also land, but for now I do see the benefit, I will take a look closer. But with land aren’t so many players…the big idea it’s to people (players) to spend a quality time in illuvium ecosystem

[valid sail]

people would buy packs with Fuel made in Land still...

those interested in overworld can still enjoy it and thanks to this proposal get better value than those not interested in it

[tiny haven]

Yes I’m not sure on the financials of illuvium and the ability to push through the bear market. I know in gaming in general gamers just want a fun and rewarding game that P2W connotations can harm the experience and hype.

[crisp relic]

this is a good idea if we want to maximize revdis for 2025, hyper P2W, but prob not good long term.

[half portal]

that looks like web3 in it's 2015 version. but how's that "empowering your players"?

[crisp relic]

what if this is supply limited alpha packs?

[half portal]

why?

[crisp relic]

we can easily raise tens of millions and wont hurt OW grinder

[craggy jasper]

It’ll work like a functioning economy. It gives the little guys a chance to break out and accumulate value without risking much.

[crisp relic]

Founder Edition Illuvials

[valid sail]

I have no concerns around their financial right now or to be able to launch or anything

I think we're in solid shape

but generally Launch is critical for this project and the more revenue we can generate the better position we put ourselves in for the longevity of the project...

Right now there is a time gate on how much money you can spend in illuvium as overworld takes time, pack openings could be a solution to this to maximise revenue absorbed from launch

at the same time, maybe it just isn't necessary... I havent run this idea through council and havent received any info on its viability from team members, just putting it out here for initial feelers of sentiment

[half portal]

Please no scholarship propaganda to me please... that system got old and all the serious web3 projects (Illuvium and Polemos included) are trying to give that opportunity to the "small people" without requiring them to have a boss-employee relationship within the game.

[crisp relic]

polemos will be offering scholarship tho, its inevitable

[bold totem]

Currently whether you are a whale or not there is a time factor involved with getting the Illuvials. The first day of playing you have the most chance of getting a Rhamphyre, as they are found the chance of getting one does go down but it is still dependent on the amount of time people have in a day to play. Being able to get one actually means working/playing for one or having the money to pay someone who is. Have pack openings and whales just drop the money, and get the Rhamphyres snapped up before players get a chance or at least create an environment where players have too much of a reduced chance of getting one even in the early days of playing.

Then the whales will be the ones on Illuvidex selling to the PVP players instead of OW players selling to PVP players. If you don't think the DAO would make enough because of Illuvidex sales I would even prefer the fee that is paid to sell on the Illuvidex be higher than doing packs.

[valid sail]

Polemos I believe have designed a scholarship system that empowers and educated scholars in the process and the scholarship is temporary until they earn their way into owning their own stuff and playing for themselves completely (as far as illuvium overworld was concerned)

(apart from the land scholaships, land is old school scholarships)

[craggy jasper]

Give it some thought. And ditch the word scholarship if that gives you a bad taste.

In the real world most people start as an employee and if they work smart and hard they can work their way up and maybe some day start their own business.
Imagine telling someone they can’t work at McDonald’s and their only option is to set up their own burger stand.

[valid sail]

the supply curve does not trend towards zero

rhamphyres will never run out,

they will just get more rare than at start but not THAT much more rare (hopefully otherwise I really dont like that system of forced scarcity for no reason)

but your point and concern are still relevant, if I was to personally solve it I'd eliminate the supply curve altogether, personally just not a fan of it, dont see what it actually adds to the game and not a fan of forced scarcity generally (this is my own opinion and does not represent the council in any way)

[half portal]

Yeah, the exact same reality that makes people play video-games to evade it!

People when they play video-games wanna feel powerful and FREE! That system you're referring to is litterally BAD for mass adoption.

[tiny haven]

I definitely understand this point of view. I am just of the thought process to let the game grow organically and increase marketing as the game grows. Illuvium has much better tokenomics than axie. However we have not seen if immutable-x and illuviums server structure can support a huge influx.

[crisp relic]

many of the scholars cashed out their SLP (axie) on the daily

[craggy jasper]

You’re 100% that some people play video games to evade the real world. But that’s still an option. No one needs to participate in a lending system. But don’t you agree that having options is better than only having 1 path?

[valid sail]

Generally in gaming a Launch is massive and marketing on Launch and just before Launch should be v strong

sometimes spikes in marketing during events and strategic timing around updates can be huge as well, but never underestimate a Launch (cyberpunks launch failed, the game had issues, now the game works great but its too late because the launch failed)

Illuvium will be using amazon servers that scale exceptionally well and they can handle any influx, those server issues that happened with axie back in the day should not trouble us

[crisp relic]

i hate grinding
i love just dumping money and take profit on rares
i like to hire some scholars to run my common illuvials
this is the best idea to pump this game in the bull run. nobody likes to wait and grind in the bull.

beyond as an example is how you grab liquidity from the market. gacha

[half portal]

we're digressing mate, let's go back to the actual idea being discussed here and for the scholarship thing we can always discuss it somewhere else if we need to 🙂

[valid sail]

https://tenor.com/view/thank-you-gif-25358104

[tiny haven]

Yeah I agree having a massive launch with stable servers can put a game on the map for a huge audience. Some games can recover from a botched launch but it is rare. For instance the land sale was a great example and experience. I feel illuvium beyond was a bit of a let down.

[craggy jasper]

I was proposing it as a possible solution to the problem that was presented in the original post.

Is that not relevant?

[valid sail]

Illuvium Beyond was defo a letdown but they recovered reasonably well with the leaderboard thing

overall Main Launch will be appealing to a much wider audience and not only to a Crypto NFT Speculator audience and will be make or break us

[oak lake]

@mossy mango if you wouldn't mind. I'd like to hear your take on this discussion.

[valid sail]

The problem is that:
when buying a pack 95% of revenue goes to DAO
when buying on secondary 3% goes to the DAO

Scholarships do not solve this

Pack Openings do and we absorb more revenue for Land Owners and ILV Stakers and more Runway

[valid sail]

seconded

[craggy jasper]

What you’re suggesting will increase the value or ILV staked and decrease the value or resources farmed in the game.

So let the big wallets collect more in rev dis at the expense of the daily grinders in the overworld?

[valid sail]

The daily grinders in the overworld thanks to this proposal get things at a better value than from a pack opening and can make better arbitrage on the secondary market if anything...

we can make the packs have 50% as much value as doing an overworld run, but they save time...

[crystal vapor]

Thats a very good Suggestion for a short term Cash Grab of whales, and a very bad Suggestion for the longterm fun of the overworld playerbase.

[tiny haven]

I feel possibly an increased travel price for whales for the higher percentage chance of getting rarer illuvials could be a way to earn more money and encourage whales to spend more. Similar to mega and standard disks concept.

[valid sail]

v against this, should be no way to boost your odds beyond buying more packs or doing more travels (or higher stage travel)

[half portal]

isn't that what we already have with S1 to S3 travels?

[crystal vapor]

Absolutely

[craggy jasper]

Making it possible to mint illuvials without spending time in the game will always hurt the players who are spending that time.

[tiny haven]

Yes I believe certain regions have better percentage chance for sure. I personally would enjoy a harder difficulty mode in OW with the chance at more rare loot.

[valid sail]

not if the ones u sell that dont require that time are sold for double the price, it means that those willing to put in the time can get things at half that price... literally better value

[half portal]

I would enjoy higher difficulty in OW too but i felt like it was already a bit harder than PB1 so it's probably just a matter of time for them to find the right balance there like they did with survival.

[valid sail]

want to make it very clear that I am not willing to die on a hill for this idea, and that I am going to be arguing for it in this chat just to provide countering viewpoints, I'm not saying that this is 100% the best idea and must be implemented
just to clarify

[crystal vapor]

No whale cares... They are used to pay 1m bucks for a shity picture of a monkey.
He doesn't really care about 50% lower droprates, he just smashed his 50K on Discs pulling the first of everything and tries to sell it for 20x on illuvidex

[craggy jasper]

You’re still increasing the supply without the required time spent.

[tiny haven]

For game balance it’s probably better for the team to have one difficulty to balance around. Possibly for future expansions a hard mode could provide better drop rates

[valid sail]

and so what? we're not guarding the supply of illuvials, the more supply the more demand for illuvials there has been, its positive, we're not a scarce PFP project we're an actual game

[valid sail]

maybe u cant buy packs for the first week or 2 to solve this, thoughts on that?

[crystal vapor]

So you want the overworld playerbase to have Fun for 2 weeks, and maybe are lucky to get 1 or 2 rare illuvials, before the Market gets flooded from a few whales?

[bold totem]

I remember Aaron talking about this and thought he said it will never go to 0 but can go to 1. I could be wrong on that though.

One of the biggest reasons I invested in Illuvium is because of the deflationary system. Remember that some of us here have absolutely no interest in actually playing PVP. If things remain how they are I would play OW to get Illuvials for my own collection which will become rare due to deflation and to get some to sell to PVP players. Your changes of pack opening go in and playing for the first little while would be worth it until the whales bought so many that the chances of catching while playing were too small and that would happen quickly, before the team released new ones. However, if the Illuvials are not deflationary what would be the point for me to pay to play? I wouldn't have a rare collection that I could look at and get a sense of accomplishment and Illuvials would quickly not be worth anything to sell. So, I would visit OW sometimes just to play and stay in T0 because it's free.

[craggy jasper]

The demand is independent of the supply. That relationship determines its value. You increase supply and the value will fall. Thus making farming the overworld less valuable

[dusky light]

This is ridiculous !! Are we forgetting that a game is what is being built here ?? to bypass the mechanics to cater to whales that will basically pillage the process is not smart at all! build a fun game that is engaging and have a strong concurrent player base first. Money will come after.

[tiny haven]

We have to remember we grinded PB1 and PB2 and will grind PB3. We will feel the effects of the grind a lot sooner than the general public. Whales will have the advantage in the illuvidex I think there should be no gameplay advantage to having more money other than to play more of it.

[wispy jungle]

Having it as a mobile only option means it can be used as a companion to the main game and as long as the results don't take away from OW and the yield is controlled well enough with RNG it can work. Don't have the time or ability to play OW but want to get access to illuvials/use fuel use the mobile application solves the issues and brings in revenue from a potentially vast source of users as mobile install base could be bigger than PC.

[valid sail]

I find it super interesting that this idea got 41 upvotes w no downvotes when proposed for the mobile app, but has strong opposition when considered surrounding launch (and no one has objected due to potential added dev time)

[valid sail]

I strongly agree and if it was done on launch it would also be implemented into the mobile app too obvi, I think that companion app idea is really genius

[craggy jasper]

The big difference is @wispy jungle idea mentions that it will require the same time. Not just cost. Illuvials should reflect time spent in the game.

[valid sail]

ahhh, thats a v fair point, did not see that, and makes a ton of sense

[crystal vapor]

Well just don't add no downvote Button, so your idea also gets no downvotes ... Smart play of Josh i guess 😂

[valid sail]

but why would someone download a phone game, try to play it, get told that to play it u need illuvials and to open packs takes 30mins, so maybe u can get a deck in a week

[craggy jasper]

I 100% agree this is a problem. About mobile gamers not being able to get illuvials.

[wispy jungle]

You could just add the same excursion/mission functionality to PC and as a passive way to access illuvials with spending fuel. Important thing is it is controlled correctly. Nothing will ever beat going into OW and scanning and picking what you want to capture. I think you time gate the missions and potentially tie the amount of missions you can partake into in game activity/limit the amount of them per day unless certain thresholds are met. All about balance needed to make it work.

[crisp relic]

thats a nice steady revenue

[craggy jasper]

This same problem already exists tho. First few weeks no one is going to have a full deck for arena.

[crystal vapor]

You could create multiple Accounts to solve the time problem

[valid sail]

exactly, and suddenly you could have just had no time barrier

back to this proposal

[crisp relic]

damnit spoon

[craggy jasper]

The time require should also require attention. Not a set and forget. If there was an option in IZ you should still have to play something. Not just click 1 button and wait for the timer

Proof of work

[crystal vapor]

Thats why bots for games are being created

[valid sail]

we however live in a world where there are so many things that we want to give our attention, there is so much choice in entertainment, so whatever we have that requires loads of attention for hours on end better be very engaging otherwise its not a game but a proof of work farm with humans instead of GPU's

botting is also a v fair concern raised by spoon

[craggy jasper]

Botting is a problem either way.
And yes our attention is pulling us in all sorts of directions, but shouldn’t the people giving the most attention to Illuvium reap the most rewards?

[sudden spire]

You can’t really compare like that. As the travel and curing shards and crafting material cost $. There is a coat to acquire your illuvial in the wild.

Like you’ve a cost if you would have to buy “illuvipack”. So the price of a pack would need to take into account the cost to catch illuvial in the wild + randomness of finding those illuvials + everything else …

I am not saying I am for the idea or against, I wait to see proper argument.

The DAO will get not only the 3% fee, but also the fuel someone had to buy to capture.

The scholarship thing though shouldn’t even be mentioned. It’s BS and not gamer oriented. Are we building a game or an investment/labor vehicle ? I am here to make money, but I want gamers above all.

[valid sail]

Crafting material costs are not relevant as you only get raw materials from travel, you'd still have to do your own crafting

and was suggested that the cost be in fuel used for travel plus a cos in shard curing fuel to account for shards one would use to catch illuvials

hope that makes sense

[valid sail]

they should reap rewards if they do, for sure

but shouldn't those investing in illuvium actually reap the MOST rewards, the stakers and land owners,

Players benefit by receiving a gaming experience that they enjoy, our selling point is that you can sell and trade in game assets, but our main selling point for players will be our actual game, there will be some that come just for profit (and many in the space now are of this contingent) but those players are not the priority, our priority is players wanting to spend money with no care for profit as that provides the most revenue to the projects runway and its investors

players benefit from this through having more choice and overworld players have better value than just packs

[steel pawn]

Pay to win this defeats everything aaron has preached since the beginning … no thanks maybe this would entice whales but the web2 audience we are targeting would be turned off. Cuz i know i wouldnt play this if this were to happen. Whales can buy in the open market..

[craggy jasper]

So those spending the most deserve the most rewards, but those spenders looking for rewards are not the priority.

Why cater to a group that you’re calling not the priority?

[dusky light]

Let’s please keep game design to game experts. Refinements and proposals I see, but entire redesign should be kept to those that have worked on games before and have a vision. We should not forget that this is meant to be a game first and a collectible after. Let’s not let money ruin the experience

[crystal vapor]

I think everyone should have a Space to voice his opinion/idea and get feedback on it.
Will you get utterly stupid ideas/opinions to read? Absolutely, probably most... But there could also be some hidden gems

[valid sail]

no those investing the most deserve the most rewards.
(i literally said that)

those that buy these packs are not rewarded, they are literally charged double for the same value because they value time more than money and we are providing a service to them.

those that enjoy playing the overworld get rewarded with better value for their money than those looking to save time

@crystal vapor time is worth more than money, so now overworld becomes a place that people only spend time there because they enjoy doing so, because its a game for enjoying

[crystal vapor]

But... But... Time is worth more than money

[craggy jasper]

I know you said that, but you also said that those looking for profit are not the priority.

[valid sail]

when it comes to players, players looking for profit are not our priority, players looking to spend money and enjoy our game are what we want to maximally attract

it most benefits those that are investing for profit

we aren't a money making game, were a game that makes money, people play the game because it is a game, not to make money, some players will make money due to skill in play or in trading because our game also allows trading of assets for money, but that is not the priority, an enjoyable gaming experience that attracts players to spend money and make the project money is most desirable.

Do you disagree?

[craggy jasper]

I think the priority is to bring as many people into the illuvium ecosystem as possible and let them choose how they want approach it. Without restriction.

[valid sail]

what restrictions do you speak of? I have never suggested restrictions?

[valid sail]

all that come may approach it as they will and I think our ecosystem offers a very wide range of different play styles...

[craggy jasper]

I’m not speaking of anything restrictions in particular. Just saying anyone should come to Illuvium and choose how they want handle it.

[valid sail]

how does this proposal prevent anyone from doing so?

[valid sail]

all can come and I think we appeal to many play styles and should. but do you not agree that our main priority is to attract as many players as possible who are willing to spend money without seeking a return on investment and are content with receiving an enjoyable gaming experience

[craggy jasper]

You asked me if I disagree with your post a few above here. I was speaking to that, not the original proposal

[craggy jasper]

The better the game is the more people will play without seeking a monetary reward. That has everything to do with how good the game is. Not how you let people by pass part of the game with money.

[valid sail]

if that part of the game isnt enjoyable to some of your player base providing a paid way to bypass it sounds okay to me, we are appealing to a diverse range of players as you said

[craggy jasper]

There will be plenty of people like that. And they can buy illuvials off those who put in the work. But someone needs to put in the work.

[noble haven]

Are we sure this is true? I'm pretty sure there is a definite number of Illuvials that will be able to be caught. Also, when we get next generation I think we won't have the first one any more.

The main problem I see with this idea is that you should be able to earn much less from packs then you can earn from playing the game. When you play the game, you have to find the wakes, shot them, scan them if you want, win, and then have shards to catch them, and also you have to spend a lot of time doing that.

I don't see a way where you can get more then like 5 Illuvials in the pack. Maybe even less. But I think the base idea of whales being able to spent tons of money is pretty good.

But I don't like one thing. Everyone having the same starting point and being able to sell your Illuvials and shards to people that don't want to grind. We will lose that aspect of the game. And I think a lot of people are excited for that. We heard Kieran talking about that 1000 times. He won't grind and mine. He just wants Shards and Illuvials. So somebody will have to grind and play the game so they can sell it to Kieran. If there are packs, there are no grinders. If there is no point in grinding we lose pretty important part of the game.

[valid sail]

yh when we get the next gen, this gen ends, but until it ends the illuvials will not run out ever, it doesnt trend towards zero and its adjusts based on demand so that we can support 1000 players and 100000000 players...

this proposal is such that you would earn less from packs than travel

travel costs time and money = x value
packs cost money only = x/2 value
for example

but at the end of the day your main concern I think is shared by many and I think it is the reason this idea doesnt have legs, too many have envisioned illuvium to be a certain way and this is actually not even a big change but a good amount of people do not like it and I can see devs not enjoying a paid way to bypass something they worked so hard on.

as far as new players coming in without pre-conceived notions of this game (which will be 99%+ of our player base after launch) I do not believe they would have an issue with this and in fact would appreciate a way to skip something if they arent into it

it does come across pay to win and that turns some people off, but i believe those players will be turned off anyway by the degree to which it is already play to win (and imo it isnt play to win, its clearly just pay to play whether this change was made or not)

[noble haven]

I feel like from the beggining we we saying: "fair and same start for everyone" & "we won't be selling NFTs". And this would be like every other NFT game if we start selling packs from the beginning.

Maybe something we should do is sell starter decks?

For example, one month into the game we sell a pack with 8 Illuvials (that all have been caught over 1000 times) and you can start playing PvP right away if you want.

Problem with that is: pricing and destroying free market prices.

[valid sail]

would also be like any other TCG to sell packs, its also not an unfair launch in any way, also we could begin making packs available a week or two into launch

[half portal]

Yeah i think this discussion shows that most of the actual community/audience that we have now already bought the entire "loop" experience sold by the founders.

I don't like though when people say "Illuvium P2W blablabla" though because it's actually only the case if the team/Strategy council decide to make the average competitive deck worth XXXX$.
Do you need to buy the cards to be able to perform yes... will spending 10k give you an advantage against a player who spent 400-500? most likely not.

So i think the P2W shouldn't even be considered an argument here. Capped p2w exists in every TCG and in many other games like Fifa, and the backlash has never been that dramatic as most people think.

Looking forward to read more in this discussion that doesn't imply this idea to be evil in the web2 eyes. I can tell you guys for a fact, having a packs opening in the game is not good or bad for Web2 adoption.

Place to new arguments.

[valid sail]

why does someone have to put in the work?
thats the bit I'm not getting, we dont need our game to be built on work, those playing overworld for fun or for their own collection wont be selling on the secondary so it really is only those wanting to grind for profit that are selling their illuvials mostly and we need a massive amount of grinders if there is a very high demand for PvP and a low demand for overworld, this increased demand instead of benefiting the project and its investors only pumps the price of illuvials, benefits grinders in the short term, then makes getting into the game more expensive for newcomers not wanting to play overworld which is a barrier, and suddenly were in axie territory and the first set isnt even over...

not saying this will happen, but I dont like the idea of it being possible, it could hurt the project and give it axie optics

[craggy jasper]

It’ll work itself out in a free market. If there’s very little supply and a lot of demand those illuvial prices will sky rocket and entice more people to play the overworld.

There’s a reason why people like bitcoin for its proof of work and not the US dollar that gets printed on demand.

[valid sail]

is this a game or a job though

with my idea people can play whatever aspect of the game they find most enjoyable, no one has to grind just so that the game has enough supply to be playable, but they can still play overworld and even profit from it if they are so inclined

[half portal]

i think the occurrence you describe of illuvials prices bumping is unlikely to happen. If there is a lot of demand for PvP like you say, Overworld will become more profitable first, but people will very quickly adapt, people will play more overworld until the Illuvials price goes down again to very close to it's "cost to get" again. I expect these bumps and dumps to be litterally matters of days and to not really turn off anyone or be an issue.

It's just offer and demand, and offer always moves towards the demand. if "grinding overworld" ever becomes a profitable option, it will very quickly be abused until it's not one anymore xD

[valid sail]

thats a fair point...

[crystal vapor]

I wouldn't say "most of the community already bought the entire loop", i would rather say most of the community was amazed by the loop and thats the reason they are still here.
I also think that p2w is a topic that always should be considered, since most if not all top Games played by a huge audience wasn't p2w at all and that being a big reason why they were so successful. Thinking about wow, starcraft, fortnite, counterstrike, gta, witcher, etc... Or just roam through the Wikipedia list of the most successful Games.

[half portal]

Do Fifa and Hearthstone make part of your list?

[valid sail]

Overall this has been an interesting discussion

Really appreciate everyone that provided feedback@craggy jasper, @crystal vapor, @bold totem, @half portal, @wispy jungle, @oak lake, Thanks for sparring guys.

Not sure if this idea is actually viable after all our chats, but look forward to seeing how further discussions evolves with others

[crystal vapor]

As i said most.
didn't play FIFA since 99, so idk how Hard it is on the p2w side.
For me personally it was the reason why i stopped playing heartstone.

[half portal]

hard enough that i spent more than 1k on it and still have a "low end very far from competitive" team 🙂

[crystal vapor]

I bet... But the really sad thing is that your cards aren't nfts 😂

[half portal]

When you play for fun, that doesn't matter. And that's why i think that "ownership" is not the right selling point when targetting the web2 users.

[crystal vapor]

It does matter of you think about investing into a game.
If you can sell the stuff again you paid for, your barrier of entry is Way lower.
Like i would never pay 1k to have a low Deck. But if i can sell the stuff if i don't Like it anymore, or Change the ip completely and leave the game, for Like 40-160% of the buying price ibwould probably have invested even more.

[half portal]

In fifa you can sell it back too, it's just for ingame currency not for "real money" per se. even though that ingame currency is technically sellable (like WoW gold coins back in the day and probably now too)

[crystal vapor]

But then you stay there with your ingame currency which you can't sell, right?

And you can't Make Profit if you get scarce items over time by selling it to other Players.

[half portal]

you can sell to other players, for ingame currency, and ingame currency is technically sellable for real money. (it's just not within the Terms of Use)

[crystal vapor]

With that you mean complicated and illegal?

[half portal]

Not complicated, but illegal yes. Hard to track though.

[crystal vapor]

I don't talk about complicated for you, but for the majority.
But yea, just the illegal Part makes it Like not worth mentioning anymore.

[bold totem]

(I really miss emoticons)

[slender ore]

This is atrocious. Dismissing OW, devaluing illuvials, and possibly deviating from the lore of the game while shaking up the fundamental pillars of the game. Don’t think it’s worth the (potential) rev increase

[valid sail]

make an idea to propose we are allowed to use them in ideas threads, i think its so useful, happy to support

[crisp relic]

if kieran himself is saying he wont grind. why would people? its gonna be just like axie, with better graphic

[steel pawn]

When did he say that?

[crisp relic]

im responding to this

[steel pawn]

Lol ive heard him and grant both say they are gonna try to catch them all so not sure where that comes from

[crisp relic]

make sense tho, most of web3 is investors in our mid 30s with a job and family, or millionaires in their 20s in their lambo
people wont have time to grind

but we do have money to spend

[lyric cypress]

On illuvium market I think will be a lots of illuvium to buy, if is the demand to Hight the same will be the price, the wales if they want can make an offer. If new player want to play directly in arena can buy from the market, I am sure that the illuvium will be from all wallets.

[slender ore]

They won’t. They will buy from secondary as will someone that doesn’t want/can’t afford to grind for fuel

[lyric cypress]

Wales came and go, if the game is fun the player can stay for years…a player have friends that are friends and so on…

[crisp relic]

players wont keep the lights on

[lyric cypress]

Wales I don’t know but I know a lot a people that play games

[lyric cypress]

players no, but the community yes, us

[burnt kindle]

It's a terrible idea. Isnt the goal for illuvials to remain and or increase their value, not inflate it to the ground? Hunting the things should be a unique experience, behind each illuvial is someone grinding and finding it. If it doesnt hold any unique value and doesnt retain much of its price, why would anyone waste time on OW? The fun and thrill will be over after a few runs, better to buy it off the market and with that there goes our revdis.

Like, how much time does a whale need to spend on illuvidex to buy what he needs? If they already know what team they will be using, not more than an hour. If they dont then just buy random stuff 🤷‍♂️

[half portal]

💯

[half portal]

I actually fear that to happen regardless of packs or not... Maybe that's because my network is filled with PvP/autobattler fans but i don't see most people spend too much time in Overworld.

Also let's say a casual player, just wants to complete his collection, just for the sake of it no intent of making any benefit or extracting value... How long does it actually take to that player to fill it's Illuviary? Same for a PvP player, they'd buy their Deck or collection... but then what incentive would they have to spend more money? I guess that's where skins come into play but realistically, most players maybe buy ONE skin that they like and stick to it for like 6 months.

So I actually feel like revdis will still be highly dependant on the arrival of new players, new sets of illuvials and waves of Illuvitars. regardless of packs being implemented or not.

[burnt kindle]

Well the question then comes, do packs help in that regard or make it worse? I don't see how they help in any way.

I think a better idea would be to offer some sort of beginner/intermediate/advanced/godlike packs with different tiers and illuvials for a certain price. Then if a pack is bought, a bot buys these illuvials from the market and sends it over to the buyer.

[vague copper]

If we were to calculate the cost of travel to get the same approx Illuvials and create this pack mechanic it would essentially be like another player though you have removed the time element so they are at a huge advantage.

Now why would one of these “whales” want to spend thousands straight up? Because they want to see a return on their investment…

A player who has grinded theoretically would value an Illuvial more. Someone who has just purchased $10K worth on packs would be happy to make a quick profit. Rinse repeat until it no longer works.

I know it’s dependent on supply and demand in the Illuvidex. But I assume a high portion of the supply would come from these whales which would set the price.

Let’s say the whales could only buy from the Illuvidex, they would purchase many rarer Illuvials. Players would be even more incentivised to play the game as there is high volume for top Illuvials.

Add to your cons: If Whales flood the market, players may be less incentivised to play Overworld.

[burnt kindle]

The thing that balances it all right now is the fact that to create a tier 2 illuvial u need to fuse 3 tier 1s. So to mint enough of every illuvial in quantities large enough for each player, it will require huge amounts of OW runs. If you can just mint them with 1 click it will destroy the whole ecosystem and make OW a waste of time.

[half portal]

I personnally don't see it making it worse or better.
Also, I think @valid sail idea meant with different tiers of packs etc. At least that's how i understood it. The idea of making a bot buy these illuvials (and maybe not even materials) from the market looks great though and i'd love to discuss it further to see what we can come up with starting from there.

Also Technically, what it would imply is that the DAO then gets the 3% from the Illuvidex transaction... AND 95% from the fuel spent on the pack buying?! that's actually cool!!!

[burnt kindle]

Yep, it will need alot of ironing out, like is it randomized or do u know in advance the illuvials u get but to me it sounds like a much better option that keeps OW runs just as important.

[lethal herald]

I have some concerns regarding the proposal that I'd like to share:

Legal concerns: I'm not well-versed in the regulations surrounding gambling in video games, but it seems like the acceptability of such a feature may vary across different regions.

Lack of gameplay engagement: Introducing a shortcut for acquiring Illuvials through pack openings might lead players to lose interest in participating in the overworld runs. This could disrupt the intended gameplay experience, the overall gameplay loop, and the interactions within the community.

Devaluation of in-game assets: The card packs could create market imbalances and potentially impact the entire illuvial market. We might witness significant fluctuations in prices and scarcity due to the alteration of the bonding curve. Furthermore, there's a concern about inflation for the illuvials, given how players typically prioritize this or that Illuvial in the overworld. Instead of only catching 1 or 2 of the Illuvial they specifically wanted now they keep all of them.

Shortened lifespan of the overworld: Games usually aim to provide a long-term experience to sustain player engagement. By allowing players to quickly accomplish all available objectives in the overworld through card packs, we might unintentionally shorten the game's lifespan. Although I'm not sure how significant this concern is, it's worth considering.

Confusion between Illuvials/Illuvitars: There is already confusion among players regarding the distinction between Illuvials and Illuvitars. Introducing a "card pack" containing Illuvials could potentially add to this confusion, especially considering the existence of "D1sks" that contain Illuvitars. It's important to prevent any misunderstandings and ensure clarity for our players.

Overall, while I understand that this idea could serve as a GREAT last resort for generating revenue (and if it comes to that should be thought about very seriously), I personally have reservations about implementing it if it's not absolutely necessary.

[half portal]

Legal concerns: As far as I know i think we could use the regulation that EA uses for Fifa as they also sell their game worldwide and have been deeply attacked for their gacha mechanic. So as long as you disclaim the gacha mechanic, the implications of responsible gambling etc in terms of use, and display the odds in the pack opening menu, it's legal pretty much everywhere.

[valid sail]

my idea does not alter the bonding curve as explained in the idea

[valid sail]

otherwise u raise some fair concerns sir and by the looks of it looks like its not that good an idea and is unlikely to be adopted

you mention at the end "great last resort" and I personally disagree with that, if the game isn't generating enough revenue and we implement this as a way to generate more we would cause more harm than good, imo its either there from the start or a week or two in, or it comes in some way when the mobile version is ready, or not at all

as a last resort it looks desperate and imo causes damage

[vague copper]

Team have said they don’t want to sell things before launch that only benefits whales. I’m sure that mentality would continue.

[fossil turret]

The idea is a good one & I like it, but not for illuvials as I think they should all be caught by someone. If a whale wants a crack team asap they can buy off other players in the illuvidex.

Where it could come in handy for extra revenue would be pack openings for materials & shards etc. That would cut players time in OW down if they wanted to do that? Just concentrate on capture runs?

Bare in mind, that loot boxes in general aren't the gaming community's favourite thing, add to the fact that we're Web3 & that'd give some of the web2 crowd all the ammo they'd need to boycott us.

[steady flax]

My thoughts are it would affect the tokenomics. Why would someone buy from the market, from those who grind and farm, when that can just get it in a pack. If it wasn't connected to blockchain and nfts, sure, yet it's a whole economic system.
I guess where does the revenue go?
How does this affect the sale of Illuvials on the market?
Can the packs be made by members? The new eth later supports this type of transaction. (Can't remember what it's called)
Does it lead into the area of centralisation?
Has the team already had this thought process?
What is the actual benifit to the player, other than not having to wait?

Personally I don't like it as it's a pay to win taking the profits away from people who are willing to farm. Currently you can only get redivs by holding ILV so if that's where the revenue was shared then it would benefit those holding the most and not be equitable.

[steady flax]

How does it make it better if your main market is being taken by opening packs?

[steady flax]

I'm a bit confused by this statement. Can you give more reasoning about how more supply equals demand?

[sudden spire]

Isn’t it what people do with illuvitars even if they can open disks ?

[steady flax]

Why is it important to have a full set right away? What's the issue of waiting? Wouldn't it create excitement and possibly massive prices if a lot of people are waiting to buy a certain illuvial?

[steady flax]

Everyone should Benefit in an equitable way. Investors already reap the greater rewards if revdis. I hear what you are saying and big investors should have some incentive. Yet I feel it's already there. They will just have to wait for the illuvials on the market.

[steady flax]

I do disagree with this. While it's important to make a game that is fun and engaging, it is still tied to the blockchain and NFTs.
I am playing because I like it, yet I am also driven by the fact I could potentially make money.

[steady flax]

It's already implemented by those selling illuvials. I don't think it will take that long for the market to have a good supply.
Do we know how many illuvials have been captured so far in pb2

[steady flax]

Players will out number whales and most likely as a whole contribute the same if not more when combined.
Those with the most money technically spend less than the greater community as they don't make lots of small purchases.
80 percent of small consistent income is going to be more than 20 percent short term buys.

[keen musk]

This doesn’t actually make sense.

That illuvial that’s being sold on the illuvidex had to come from the game at some point.

The DAO gets 95% of the fuel cost of obtaining the illuvial when it is captured, then an additional 3% of the value when it’s later traded.

To frame it as the DAO getting less funds from an investor buying on the illuvidex than from packs would imply the illuvial sprung into existence without being paid for in the first place.

The active dynamics of the game economy where players with different play styles fill different market roles are one of the exciting things about Illuvium. Allowing players to pay money to bypass the game mechanics cheapens the overall Illuvium experience for everyone.

[steady flax]

What point are you referring too?

[valid sail]

came off chat after devils advocating for this idea most of the morning, thought about it a ton and I think this idea is actually just not good and causes more problems than its worth

really wanted to see if it had legs, it didnt

[sudden spire]

What if we continue a little…

What about selling pack of t0

They have no value in theory, but some depending on very good stat may have some

It would allow whale to get them easily and dao to make money

No F2P player impact
Whale COULD spend

But is it somehting to do ?

Spend 300$ and get all t0 -vs- grind 50h of overworld

Though Aaron and Kieran were very adamant at having equality at the start of the game. I don’t know if it’s valid for t0.

[waxen trench]

I missed the idea early on. But I stand on what many have said and is reduced to a single word IlluviDex. I don't think I can express it better than what @keen musk posted:
#1110944822509965333 message

[crisp relic]

nah. in every P2W, whales make up the most revenue.
we have to remember that the only way to get volume on illuvidex is P2W (leviathan). whales buying the perfect stats illuvials, speculators fusing illuvials hoping to roll a better stat.
the ascendant arena wont make as much because the stats are normalized and you only need one illuvials in the same line.
at the end of the day it will be the same. the difference is how long we will get there.

[crystal vapor]

From where did you got those spending numbers?

[crisp relic]

top 1% make 33% of rev, while top 20% make 90%. some company doing research

i think @spare oyster has a better idea

[crystal vapor]

Can't remember the companies name? Really curious about such numbers.

[lyric cypress]

How long does it actually take to that player to fill it's Illuviary?.....answer:
time and money to buy from illuvidex, in this world time is the most important resource, not money... and with a pack it still doesn't guarantee that it completes its collection quickly...

To complete it means to buy a very, very large number of packs, which is good for short-term, but it will flood the market with a lot of Illuvium that many people won't buy, and it will decrease interest in playing OW... Honestly, capturing them is an "art".

[crisp relic]

different articles have different research companies, they are giving different numbers but generally saying similar conclusion

[crystal vapor]

Yes, i looked up different ones and they all had different numbers... which Made me think that if they all have different numbers, they were probably all wrong 😂

[crisp relic]

they are prob looking at different games. Hope seating gets back to us. hes deep into research and def know more

[crisp relic]

90% F2P, 9.5% Casual Spenders, 0.4% Whales, 0.1% Mega Whales

from seatin

thats even more skewed

my IRL friend spent about $100K on ragnarok mobile, not even the top. and u can CoC, cant make it to leaderboard if ur not a whale

unless the game is skinomics, or subs based, we will rely on whales

its just how we want to squeeze the whales. this thread is about speeding up that process vs slowly from scholars grinding

btw blizzard caved in and sell gold themself, let that sink in

[native kiln]

Okay so this is the illuvidex but 95% of the revenue goes to the dao. Axie infinity made billions from secondary market sales. A healthy economy brings in way more volume and royalties than an unhealthy economy

[crystal vapor]

Did you just use the word healthy economy after you said Axie infinity?

[crystal vapor]

Yea, heared about that.

[crisp relic]

why make billions if you can make trillions

[burnt kindle]

If we wanna target whales, ILVz is best geared for that type of p2w gameplay. Minting illuvials should be absolutely set in stone only from OW. The exception can be some limited special event t0s.

[burnt kindle]

We are also selling fuel, pretty much the same, but better. Imagine if u had to grind the free version of ilvz for 10hrs just to save enough fuel for a run.

[native kiln]

Obviously Axie Infinity wasn't a healthy economy but it was still a profitable economy for their DAO for a small period of time. Proving that secondary market sales can be more impactful than straight up selling NFTs. But doing the suggestion here would eliminate any chance of Illuvium being healthy to any degree. Unironically for similar reasons Axie Infinity failed.

[crisp relic]

axie has not failed

still has 25K DAU

$800m mcap
$85m daily volume

[burnt kindle]

Thats just the last remaining poor souls waiting slp to reach 1 cent, wouldnt consider it a success with what they couldve been

[crisp relic]

they were top 10 tokens in the bull. literally started the crypto game gold rush, incl ILV

[burnt kindle]

Yeah at that point they were ontop, what they did with all that exposure and revenue is the mind boggling part. Improved their game to look from the early 90s to maybe 95. After next bull they can make a game from the early 2000s

[narrow shell]

this is the worst proposal ive seen in my life, giving boost to whales is super wrong

cuttin corners

[valid sail]

#1110944822509965333 message

[frail nova]

I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt and maybe say something like this can work if it's time gated and 99% of the time provides worse outcome than a regular run.

But I'm mostly leaning on "~50% of the development was spent of the overworld, making it irrelevant is a horrible idea".

On a ligter note this would solve bot issues, cuz there will be no need to use bots to do runs 😄

[steady flax]

I was wondering if a comparison could be done with something like gods unchained? It might be that whales do put in more. Yet I wonder how long, does it change over time? Are there enough new wallets to sustain the movement of whales?
Is it always a little hypothetical? Is there anyway like illuvium that has been going long enough to gauge?

[misty kestrel]

@valid sail Since the primary motivation here was to gather sentiment, and that's come through fairly clearly, would you like this thread locked or do you want more sentiment?

[valid sail]

I think enough sentiment has been gathered with 40 downvotes including from myself 🤣