Remove the Word Game from Illuvium Beyond Marketing

[soft nacelle]

Pretty simple. It's not a game and therefor should not be marketed as one.

[analog peak]

Would you please define the word game and the reason for removing it?

[soft nacelle]

You know it when you see it

And the reason for removing it is because it isn't a game

[analog peak]

I am scared about the future of Illuvium when I see someone as competitive, irrational and aggressive as you, being in a council with voting powers. That's all I have to say.

[soft nacelle]

Thank you for your opinion sir

[granite comet]

With illuvium i always wonder is there something more to it than what it is at the moment. Maybe they have an idea to make it into a game, and thats the reasoning for it? if not, then can you consider "collecting" a game? I don't. I remember seeing it being called a game. I questioned myself why, but lost interest and did not care. So i do agree at the moment its not a game, and at the same time i dont care what they call it. Ill agree to this post, since at the moment it just makes no logical sense

[soft nacelle]

I completely agree. If in the future it becomes a game then by all means use the word

[granite comet]

attack the idea, not the person, brother

[wind island]

When I first entered the crypto space, I was directed to a lot of NFT "games" and many of them were just collections of NFTs. This put a bad taste in my mouth, as I was looking for Games that actually had skill and/or strategy gameplay components that were not just monetary.

While Illuvium Beyond has Gamified some aspects of the collecting. I believe traditional gamers who see this would(and have) been put off by seeing it labeled as a game.

Until an IIP passes for an Illuvitar's game, I could imagine there is a better marketing phrase to be used. Love to hear what some of the marketing council members say about this.

[trail knot]

Caveman said it all.
Beyond is Not a game, because it requires no skill or strategy, not even luck because one can just buy everything from the secondary market and not engage with the rolldice.

It is not good press either for web2 newcomers looking into our project either.

But here's the tricky question:
If "wrongly" marketing it as a Game, and putting a leaderboard with rewards etc, generates more money. Is it a bad decision?

My own answer is that the money it generates is not worth hurting our branding by being called liars, but other people might have different answers.

[soft nacelle]

Great responses you two 🙂

[analog peak]

Here are the post guidelines. A council member should be able to follow these guidelines. How can we expect them to refine and vote on IIP/ICCPs, if they don't care about these simple guidelines and then not even answer questions that would explain their idea?

This forum is for all of your ideas and feedback. You can create new posts once every 6 hours. Please only submit 1 idea per post, also take time to properly explain your idea.

Example
Title: Checkpoints system
Tag: Game Idea
Post: You should add a checkpoint system in the autobattler so that you don't have to start over from Wave 1 when you died on Wave 30. This will reduce prevent small misplays from being so punishing.

Moderators will close posts that have not been properly created and/or explained

[soft nacelle]

I have a title, I tagged it, and I made a post. It's a simple idea so I made a simple post

[analog peak]

and what about the explanation?

[soft nacelle]

Self explanatory

[trail knot]

Title: Remove the Word Game from Illuvium Beyond Marketing
Tag: Marketing
Post: Pretty simple. It's not a game and therefor should not be marketed as one.

I guess you can run a few relevant messages here @soft nacelle through ChatGPT and add it to the 1st message. So people who jump in the discussion can understand the reasonning without having to scroll down to here.

A lot of people in the ideas-feedback channel don't read the discussion, just the idea before they interact. This will actually save you time from repeating over and over the same thing

[analog peak]

That's what I call a good response and not "self explanatory"

[pastel nexus]

what would be the alternative term to use?
wouldn´t e.g. pfp collection misslead people as those are capped supply, similar image different accesories in web 3, with no possible actions to take beyond buy/sell?

[trail knot]

What about Interactive PfP Collection?

[pastel nexus]

did anyone ever use that? could be confusing to coin new words

[soft nacelle]

Would you rather use a new word or be dishonest?

[pastel nexus]

Is using game dishonest?

[analog peak]

Why not just call it a Collection Game?

[soft nacelle]

See post #1

[pastel nexus]

that wasn´t a reason or a defintion, just saying it isn´t doesn´t clear the point

[soft nacelle]

Here is the reason:
Calling it a game is dishonest because it is not a game

[pastel nexus]

then what is a game?

[soft nacelle]

Refer to my 2nd post

[pastel nexus]

you mean you know it when you see it?

[soft nacelle]

If you want a more established definition then others have given it. But it's not really necessary when using common sense

[pastel nexus]

so you want to use common sense to support an absolute statement that you make, while others might disagree?

what if someone in this chat would put, yeah it is a game, I have decisions to make, max amount of accesories on the marketplace, I can optimize how much money I need to spend for Leaderboard or points or collection, I can gamble on number go up or down, I can gamble on leaderboard rewards, I can decide which accessories to put on illuvitars etc.

is it "pay 2 win" 100% yes, but that isn´t a common sense it isn´t a game argument
it is a perspective thing and a pc-gamer discussion might have different views than moible/gacha/p2w gamers

[trail knot]

really bro? you call that decision making?

[soft nacelle]

Someone in chat is more than welcome to say it is a game if they want. It isn't though so oh well for them. It is very obvious what it actually is and why it is being marketed as a "game".

[pastel nexus]

are you upset I play devils advocate? I don´t understand

[trail knot]

nah just pointing that chosing 6.25% over 5% for my accessory doesn't really look like a decision for me

[pastel nexus]

did you know there aren´t enough 20% and close to that to e.g. cover your collection atm, so you can´t just buy it for everyone, need to decide do who to give it e.g.

[trail knot]

Maybe if we had something like you have in old RPGs where wearing pieces of armor of a same collection gives you a bonus and you had to play mix and match with your accessories (like 2 fire accessories, 2 air ones rather than bonding a weak fire one) to maximize your "power" the point of decision making and game would be arguable

but in it's actual state...

[trail knot]

Then the obvious play is just to give it to your highest power illuvial. actually not a harder decision than the one i gave above. It's just mathematically, unarguably better.

[pastel nexus]

playing with infinite money idea ,what about the odds a higher power illuvialtar version than the one you have appears on the market and now you risk burning the scare accessory
if you don´t have infinite money, is selling 20% and buying multiple 18% better, as examples

[trail knot]

And for you, that makes it a game?

[pastel nexus]

idk why my personal opinion would be relevant

I think we can agree on that there are decisions to be made
different goals and different ways to "play" your strategy depending on funds and goals

And I hope we can agree on just saying I think X, so it is common sense isn´t a constructive way to discuss

[trail knot]

It is actually the entire point though. You as a Game Sub-Council, do you consider Beyond as a Game and do you think decisions/IIPs regarding Beyond should be voted by the Game Sub-Council?

[pastel nexus]

I think there are very obvious decision making elements to it and I can understand the perspective of seeing it as a game.
The counter perspective so far has been "p2w" isn´t a game, which seems weak.

The relevant talking point seems to be if using game is misleading people, who aren´t educated about Illuvium products.
At that point simply looking at the word game seems too easy, what with the word illuvitars? what with non Illuvium based websites not putting proper descriptions? what with ...

Also it´d be nice if you could answer my questions, so I can understand if we have base line things to agree on or not

[soft nacelle]

That might be the worst post in the entire thread so nice job.

[trail knot]

Did you just send that at me while my last 2 questions were expecting a simple yes or no answer that you didn't even give?

[granite comet]

decison making =/= game. Either collection is a game or not. I argue its not cause your just collecting and spending money.

[trail knot]

by the way i'm off for the day, this was fun, maybe i'll read more tonight

[pastel nexus]

you did only give anecedotal statements calling them common sense, pls explain to me, you haven´t done that so far

[soft nacelle]

A collection is clearly just a collection and thats the entire point of my post. Thats why there are no definitions needed and really this shouldnt be too difficult of a concept to grasp for most people. There is nothing wrong with collecting things as I have enjoyed doing that in the past. There IS a difference and expectation when seeing the word game though.

[pastel nexus]

What is the expectation when people see game in correlation with you can open d1sks to get handdrawn pics + accessories, that have points to them and there is a leaderboard for highest points?

[pastel nexus]

when talking about subjective topics with people potentially having different opinions, simple yes or no aren´t the way I think of those topics, sorry, I try to understand the different sides, this doesn´t seem like a 1+1=2 or not issue, as the point is discussing feelings and impressions not math at this moment

[soft nacelle]

I can give points to teddy bears. That doesn't make it a game to collect more teddy bears.

[pastel nexus]

I think there is an objective difference to teddy bears and scarce tradeable assets obtained from %based loot boxes, that have decision based elements to it based in goals and funds to spend

[soft nacelle]

Adding adjectives to teddy bears doesn't make it significantly different

You're still just collecting teddy bears

[pastel nexus]

pls explain, you keep giving examples and say those are truths, without a reason

[soft nacelle]

I believe my teddy bear example perfectly explains it to someone who is actually willing/capable to listen

[pastel nexus]

you have the thesis illuviatars=teddy bears, and they aren´t a game, (even if we add all the things illuvitars have in decision making) why?

[soft nacelle]

It was said earlier that the simple fact that there is decision making (even though this only qualifies on the most literal and technical of terms) does not make collecting something a game. If I collect stamps, I have to decide which stamps I want to buy. That is a decision but it does not make stamp collecting a game.

[pastel nexus]

collecting stamps doesn´t have a leaderboard or rewards

[wraith mirage]

I understand why people don't want to call it a game.
I think we need to think about whether or not calling it a game would benefit illuvium or not.
It's a money game, but it's a ranking game, so I think there are people who think it's OK to call it a game.
I think the people who are investing in illuvitars now would call it a game, so I think it depends again on whether you focus on the people who are investing and we need to think about the brand image of illuvium too.
I think you are the ones who can make the final decision on that, and I don't have a problem with disagreement.

[soft nacelle]

Leaderboard or rewards also does not make something a game. I can make a leaderboard for my stamp collection as well. IN fact there is already a basic one. Monetary value. The reward is appreciation of that value.

[soft nacelle]

Calling it a game benefits Illuvium because it makes people more willing to invest their money. I believe this is dishonest and would rather base it off of that than financial gain. Just my personal opinion of the matter and what I value.

[wraith mirage]

Discuss it at the council meeting, I hope.👍

[analog peak]

SJUD, you are making a simple, but profound mistake in your arguments:

You think Illuvium is a traditional game studio, that wants to market all its "games" to web 2 Diablo IV style gamers.

We have all sorts of games for all sorts of customers, but they are all financial games.

According to game theory the whole world is based on many games people play every day and every second without even noticing it.

You are right, that we shouldn't market Beyond to a Diablo IV gamer. But that is pretty obvious.

As a web 3 meta verse studio we want to expand on the term game and create something new.

Marketing is also about creating new terms and fulfill wishes people didn't even know they had.

Marketing is always a lie in that sense, it only becomes bad for us when we create expectations that we can not meet.

[soft nacelle]

I believe this is more of a marketing issue than a game council issue

[soft nacelle]

Not a mistake at all. I'm just talking about the word game being used improperly. I understand why it is being used and who it is targeting.

[granite comet]

I also think we are biased here. Imagine like.. start atlas opens up a new revenue stream with a mini GAME. The mini game would constist of you buying pictures of spaceships, and guns to accesorize your spaceship with. There is a leaderboard associated with who got he biggest and baddest ship. How many of us here would be fine with star atlas calling that a game?

[analog peak]

Why are you so worried about this "misuse"?

[soft nacelle]

Why are you ok with lies being used to promote something in this space?

[pastel nexus]

calling it a lie, because you have a different opinion seems inappropriate

[soft nacelle]

I would argue this isn't something that is an opinion based disagreement. It's like arguing what color the sky is.

Just because someone thinks it is red , does not make it so

[pastel nexus]

well you can rather objectively prove and talk about the color of the sky, everything you have done so far is saying your thesis is true, because it is true or because supposedly majority would agree, those are rather weak reasons in a debate/discussion

[analog peak]

If we targeted real world Collectors with Beyond marketing and would call it a Collection Game: Why is it a lie? Beyond has more gaming than any other collection, a real world collector has ever seen before.

[soft nacelle]

I find it more interesting to discuss this topic without using definitions (the definitions favor me by the way), It's a way to gauge intelligence and motivations of people.

[pastel nexus]

If definitions favor you, why did you never give one so far?

[soft nacelle]

"I find it more interesting". Read that part

[analog peak]

Is SJUD just trolling us and having lots of fun?

[soft nacelle]

Not trolling at all. I don't find this a particularly huge deal is all. Like I said, it is a good way to gauge intelligence and figure out where people's loyalties lie.

[pastel nexus]

I guess he finds it more interesting this way

[soft nacelle]

Would I like to see this changed? Of course.
Is it a top priority or dealbreaker if it isn't? Of course not.

[exotic fossil]

it's a game. it's a give money to the top spender game

[soft nacelle]

lol

[exotic fossil]

gacha is a game

[soft nacelle]

Gacha games have an actual game attached to them

The game is bad of course but its still a game

[pastel nexus]

if you consider a game good or bad doesn´t matter on this topic

[soft nacelle]

I agree

[exotic fossil]

what is a game?

• does it have rules? yes
• is there a competition? Yes
• does it involves luck? Yes
• can you play it? Yes

[soft nacelle]

You aren't playing anything though

You are buying a card and putting it into a binder

[wind island]

I think we need to take a step back from trying to define a "game".

People should 👍 if they feel having game in the name is bad and would cause confusion of our customers.

People should 👎 if they think it will provide more revenue than the people it may push away due to the confusion.

I would also like to point out that in the time discussing this two community members thought that illuvitars was part of "the game".

We need to get to the root of that problem and ensure we don't have a customer service problem at launch where many collectors of illuvitars had different expectations.

[soft nacelle]

Yes a lot of people think the Illuvitars is part of the actual game because that is how it is marketed

People see game and assume it is part of the ecosystem of games. People see game and think they are going to be playing something

[pastel nexus]

So we conclude the game or not discussion, assume it is a game, because if not we wouldn´t be able to market it as one anyways, right?
and only discuss if it is beneficial or not to use the term game/collection game or find and use a new one?

[soft nacelle]

You can market anything as anything. That's what marketing is. It doesn't make it so

[pastel nexus]

I do believe companies shouldn´t lie or misrepresent things when building brands and marketing products.
The past of successful companies and brands also shows that lie/misrepresent isn´t a good longterm strategy.
Apple would be a good example for it, people can argue about pricepoints or what not, but customers are happy and come back because they like the quality and are willing to buy more from the ecosystem

[soft nacelle]

I agree at least on the first part.

[pastel nexus]

but this is in contradiction with what you said above?

[soft nacelle]

I dont have enough marketing knowledge to know how well blatant lies do compared to non lies. But the way you market a product even if it is bad, is to say it is good. Thats the business and a form of lying.
Nobody is going to say in a commercial "Buy X we are the 9th best in our category!"

Every movie that is ever created puts "Movie of the year. This movie is a 10/10, etc" in their ads

[pastel nexus]

As far as I am aware you can´t lie when marketing things in most countries.
You can make things sound nice etc. pretty girl running in a corn field to sell anti depressants, etc.
those aren´t outright lying

if some reviewer gives a movie 10/10, yeah you can quote that, will some people think that the reviewer is more relevant than others, likely yes
this isn´t lying again

someone saying Top #1 in some category can be misleading, as that category might be a small sub group only
but none of these would be a lie again, it would be making reality sound nice to uneducated listeners

so coming back to that, yes it would be relevant to clear the question of game or not, as far as I am aware of

[soft nacelle]

Very fair, it is more in line of manipulation and misleading in most advertisements

[analog peak]

This is all a word and definitions meta game being played out here in front of us.

What worries me most: We all know that the team wants to build out Beyond to be a real game and this is why it is listed under the Games menu on the website.

If council members now discuss removing the game status from Beyond it not only affects the team's long term vision, but also endangers the value Beyond Collectors have poured into this game.

If we end up with a council democracy that favors the type of games certain sub groups are invested in and tries to cancel other peoples games and investments we are in for a ride ...

[soft nacelle]

The team can want to build any game it wants. That decision is not up to them

There are many reasons it is listed as a game on their website. That also doesn't make it so.

[thorny heron]

So did you talk to the team and ask?

[analog peak]

This Gov 2 scares me to a degree that I want to reconsider my investment decisions.

[granite comet]

Bro thats cap. Look at previous council members. Nobody had a problem

[soft nacelle]

We are talking about what it is currently. Not what it can possibly be in the future.

[analog peak]

Good question.

[thorny heron]

So we should stop calling Illuvium a web 3 game since it's not on chain yet

[soft nacelle]

Nope. Because it is currently planned as a Web3 game. Like always Fraggy, good try but not really.

[thorny heron]

We are talking about what it is currently. Not what it can possibly be in the future.

[soft nacelle]

Yes and Illuvium is currently planned as a web3 game

[thorny heron]

But you didn't inform what is planned for the future of beyond ...

[soft nacelle]

Thats because as of now there are not any

[thorny heron]

Who told you that

[soft nacelle]

I don't see any IIPs regarding Illuvium Beyond as anything more than what it already is

[analog peak]

Where are the IIPs for Overworld or Arena? They are developing them on their own without IIPs.

[thorny heron]

There are partnership events coming up, maybe we are not allowed to know

My point is, do some research and come with facts

[soft nacelle]

I would ask you to do the same

[thorny heron]

No way to vote without information provided

I'm not a council member, I didn't sign an NDA, I don't get inside information

This whole discussion could be useless if you first did your research

[soft nacelle]

Not true, Nice try though

[thorny heron]

Well for me it's a no then. Not enough information

[soft nacelle]

Thanks for your opinion then

[analog peak]

I state it here in the open: SJUD is not qualified to be on any council, because he lacks basic discussion skills, and probably some more.

[soft nacelle]

I certainly have the discussion skills necessary.

Just because you don't personally like me, does not make me unqualified to be on a council. I think we are all having a good discussion here.

[analog peak]

I don't know you personally. All I know is the manner in which you discuss and argue here.

[soft nacelle]

Maybe my style just isn't for you then. That's ok. Everyone is different

[analog peak]

Yes, but to be on a council certain basic skills are important. The same way basic math skills are required to be an accountant.

[soft nacelle]

Yes and you have your opinion on my skills and the rest of the community that voted me in overwhelmingly has theirs

Please try and refrain from the personal attacks

[analog peak]

That is the danger of democracy. Imagine Apple would be a democracy where all buyers vote for the features in the next products. If this is the future of Illuvium, I am out.

[soft nacelle]

I am just one voice in the council providing a viewpoint that is usually much different than others. I think it's important to have all voices in a community be represented.

[analog peak]

I am all for community input, but there needs to be an overall consistency in the long term vision.

And a council member should get informed about that vision first, before creating own ideas.

[soft nacelle]

Everyone is allowed their own opinion mate. Even council members.

At the end of the day we are all trying to do what we think is best for the DAO. If you want to represent the DAO then I encourage you to run in the next Epoch

[wraith mirage]

Is this an issue to be discussed so emotionally?
I think !Caveman has the answer in one short sentence.
#1108647108032069692 message

https://twitter.com/viper_ilv/status/1658484160791715840
There are some very good things here, I agree with this.
I don't think you can have a discussion if you don't have respect.

It's not an issue I'm going to discuss here, but I think illuvitars has a bigger problem than a name problem.
People who did not buy Wave 1 will not buy Wave 2, and people who bought Wave 1 will give up and stop buying Wave 2, which could lead to a very small group competing and jeopardise the success of illuvitars.
If the sales of Wave 2 exceed those of Wave 1, then there is no problem...

Viperilv.eth ♊️ (@viper_ilv)

Another thing I will advocate for in my council epoch is not using emotional language when it comes to communication.
"Winning the Court of public opinion" isn't relevant when it comes to improving the DAO and Illuvium.
This came to my mind when I saw various critical views on…

Twitter · May 16, 2023, 2:46 PM

[soft nacelle]

I agree with this and Cavemans post

[wind island]

I would ask you to just consider this as an idea from any community member.

None of us are on the Marketing council and Don't have the data to back any opinion.

This is just an idea that has been proposed. Which first has to be passed by community, then marketing then Main council.

All the council members speaking in this thread are just vocal game sub councils members.

[soft nacelle]

Yup this has always been a marketing issue and thats why I tagged it that way

[analog peak]

You underestimate the free market. If only few buy into Wave 2, then at the end many will buy into it or the value or Wave 2 just grows a lot.

[pastel nexus]

I think when you question the use of the word game, it does become a game council point and issue, the marketing issue would be how to use that term.

[analog peak]

Why don't they ask the team for their plans with the games?

[soft nacelle]

Because it is not relevant at the moment

[analog peak]

You are amazing. May I ask you what kind of educational background you have?

[soft nacelle]

BS in Economics from UW. You?

[analog peak]

Master in Computer Science.

[soft nacelle]

Cool. I'm a completely moron when it comes to computer stuff

[wind thorn]

I'm giving it thumbs down just for the lack of reasoning in the post, "it's not a game" without any further info is not a valid explanation for me.
I voted for SJUD in the past election and honestly think he can do better.

[analog peak]

And with that background you are telling me with a straight face that the teams plans for their games isn't relevant for marketing decisions?

[soft nacelle]

Not for this one. When it is a game they can market it as such

[analog peak]

When so say yes or no, you should also provide some reasons for yes or no.

[soft nacelle]

They can also market it as a game now if they want to.

I'm just giving my opinion and feedback and asking others to do the same

[analog peak]

Opinions are easy to have, you know how this saying goes.

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge… is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self kind of understanding.”

[soft nacelle]

Yes opinions are easy to have. Everyone has them!

[analog peak]

On a positive note. SJUD, you seem to be an awesome gamer and have good following for that. And I respect you for that, because I am not a good gamer.

[soft nacelle]

Thanks man. We all have our strengths

[analog peak]

I just want to make sure we see each others position and view points. We all want Illuvium to succeed, but we need to learn and understand each other. And I am not saying I am perfect.

[soft nacelle]

Don't worry. You will always know my positions. I am honest and transparent to a fault.

And if you don't like my position on something such as here, feel free to always say so

[analog peak]

Cool.

[turbid jackal]

Honestly I am not 100% against what is at the heart of this idea but:

How has marketing as a game negatively impacted the DAO?

Would changing marketing now be more harmful or beneficial?

If not marketed as a game would less people participate?

I'd like to know who have strong opinions on Beyond has spent any time in it, figuring it out or bonding?

I "played" beyond. One of the core differences between Illuvium and other games is the economy is super baked into the experience and market mechanics are part of the fun. I was skeptical of this idea TBH. But wanted to test it out in Beyond. Because of bonding and a scoring systems I think Beyond reaches a definition of game. You can strategically bond to get h more points depending on what cross of collections your bond would fill out. You can play the market and find the best power/cost accessories and the power/cost illuvitars. It's all fun/entertaining to me. "Playing" this game I was able to reach platinum and be on the leaderboard for awhile (spending a fraction of what others seem to be)

Without album collections/power/bonding/market. I would say it's not a game but the team put in a lot to make it a game.

I think the marketing could be clearer or maybe the "game" could be exposed more so people understand what they are getting into and don't feel scammed.

[soft nacelle]

See a lot of these questions are why I believe it is primarily a marketing discussion. There are pros and cons to using the word and pros and cons if it were to be changed.

[analog peak]

Maybe we can find a compromise in the way marketing explains the game aspects of Beyond. As long as everyone who opens the Beyond page knows immediately what kind of "game" they are getting themselves into, there should be no problem in extending the meaning of game. We have intelligent customers, we are not marketing to dumbos.

[soft nacelle]

I think if the decision is to keep the word game in there then that would be great, even if I disagree with the decision.

[turbid jackal]

I was very concerned about people being confused. I made this graphic, near the time beyond was announced. I think if marketing did something similar it would be helpful https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/791148476218081321/1080580578824429588/Screen_Shot_2023-02-21_at_6.png?width=1652&height=1154

[idle dust]

I also thought calling it a game could end up as a backlash, because people get confused, you saw it a Lot in discord. People joining the Server, wanted Info about how and when to buy illuvitars, because they thought illuvitars are illuvials and they wanted to buy them early before launch. I guess because it's illuvitars using the Word game in their advertising.
I myself was worried missing out for early buy of a cardgame, which they already working on in the Background, because they promoted it as a game.
If you can call it a game? Probably...
Could people be mislead? Some for sure
Does it hurt the Dao? We don't know what they planned for it or are already working for it, if there are no more features added you will See disappointed faces in the future for sure.
Will it End in a casual cardgame, most likely not. If they do a cardgame, i would bet some bucks of the Team and community voting for illuvials to be the assets for the card game. You can read up Aaron's thoughts in that in #🎮〕illuvium-beyond chanel.
Would i remove the term for marketing it. I don't think so.
The Word is already spreaded, and i guess you could argue that some people view it as a game is totally legit.

[soft nacelle]

Yup for a card game I personally would much rather have illuvials be used.

[analog peak]

And add to it the talk about Substance. All these games interact and provide value that enhances each others favorite game in ways a normal web 2 game could not. So in the end we all benefit from each other.

[idle dust]

It's very disappointing to know basically nothing about what is planned with substance, except it could increase catchrate of shards. Sounded Like you can do a Lot of other Stuff with it. First batch almost over... I probably would have bought some disks knowing what features could be planned for substance

[tulip silo]

newcomers arrive to play illuvium beyond, they see that it's a trading card album where those who pay the most win on the leader board. OK, illuvium games = trash. NFT trash...
they won't go any further than that

[soft nacelle]

Correct

Unfortunately we can't go back in time to change that so we just have to create the best future products that we can

[crude cape]

There's a lot to read here lol.

[distant gulch]

Agree

[trail knot]

second this

[exotic fossil]

gacha is trash

[flint oracle]

I’ve struggled through onboarding some confused folks that were looking at #🎮〕illuvium-beyond
#💰〕token message

It’s not a game, yet.

While I have not used Marvel Collect by Topps, it looks very similar. Sometimes it’s called a game, but maybe not by Marvel and Topps.

Should #🎮〕illuvium-beyond be called a game? Maybe not, yet.

I think it’s a problem to not address what would happen if GAME was not part of #🎮〕illuvium-beyond … what happens with the in-game rewards for the leaderboard? Full investigation and transparency on consequences of proposals is probably just as important as honest marketing.

[flint oracle]

Perhaps pushing for an IIP that would make the planned #🎮〕illuvium-beyond game official would benefit the DAO

[analog peak]

I agree. We should not start another new game, before making the planned Beyond game official. That does not mean the Beyond game has to be developed before any other game.

[woven marten]

You guys gotta stop arguing with Illuvithor.

He is clearly a chatbot.

1. No personality.
2. No consistent values, flip flops positions constantly.
3. Represents statements as facts and then backtracks once corrected.

Ya'll are just this things training data

[soft nacelle]

lol I've been gone for quite some time so didnt know 😉

[woven marten]

Also beyond is obviously not a game. Great idea by SJUD.

[analog peak]

You are right about the missing personality Scoot, I am pretty introverted. I sometimes feel like being a computer myself.

For points 2 and 3 I would need some examples to agree with you and correct myself.

[idle crater]

Lol 200 replies for this, how or if to call it a game? Whats wrong with calling it a collection game? The answers to that question here have been ridiculous. You play the game by collecting stuff, if anyone gets confused regarding that aspect of "play" they either have no place in crypto and on the internet as a whole or they spent 30s to "research". Back in the day there were these circle plastic pokemon disks which we used to collect as kids, and to play we traded them based on character and rarity. We called it a game then, dont see how beyond is much different.

[soft nacelle]

Collecting something isn't a game. It's collecting. If your argument is that you used to call collecting a game when you were 6 years old.... I don't know what to tell you.

[idle crater]

Can you read? Why is it only me suddenly when everyone around me used to call it that and it was popular. Seems you are the one having a problem with it lol

[soft nacelle]

Sorry, I should have said a group of 6 year olds instead of just you.

[idle crater]

6 or 600 doesnt matter, what do u think illuvium will be played only by 50 year olds? It can be called a collection game and has been in the past. If u have a problem with that, thats too bad

[soft nacelle]

Just because something has been called something in the past doesn't make it correct.

[idle crater]

Doesnt make it incorrect either

[soft nacelle]

Correct. The fact that it isn't a game makes it incorrect.

[idle crater]

Anything can be a game, u are just too close minded to realize that. The collecting and trading is the game

[thorny heron]

Let's stay respectful

[tawny tulip]

Just so everyone is aligned on the definition :

Feel free to continue this conversation. Just wanted to share this to ensure everyone had the same definition and could discuss this objectively.

Defined by Oxford Dictionary

[soft nacelle]

Aww now that's no fun. Now everyone will know for sure that it's not a game and the discussion ends.

[idle crater]

A competitive game, with leaderboards, played according to rules of strength, aka illuvitar power or whatever it is, rarity etc

[soft nacelle]

That's not what strength means

[idle crater]

Lmao ur reaching hard on this

[spice zinc]

I want to make two points.

If we need to go over the definition of a game to see if Illuvium Beyond is one than it’s probably not a game.

The objective of the post was to have it not classed as a game. The discussion should be what’s the pros and cons of us including it in our games list.

[soft nacelle]

It's obviously not a game and should not have been marketed as one in the first place.
But you're right that at this point there are pros and cons to having it remain as one and that's something the experts in marketing should be discussing.

[thorny heron]

Would love to see what <@&1107754344499122206> has to say about this

[analog peak]

Would you consider IL:Z a game and why?

[soft nacelle]

I absolutely despise games like ILZ but yes I consider it a game (barely lol)

[analog peak]

What makes IL:Z a game compared to Beyond?

[soft nacelle]

There actually is a fair amount of skill in those city builder games and how to optimally build them

It's not something that is difficult to learn but there are still a lot of factors to consider

[spice zinc]

What’s to despise about it?

[analog peak]

Does Beyond not require any skill ?

[soft nacelle]

Just my own personal opinion on those games. I know some people love them, I just don't

[spice zinc]

You mean like COC?

[soft nacelle]

Yah all those mobile games of that style with various different reskins

[spice zinc]

It’s ranked like 6th top mobile game of all time based on player count so you’re an odd one there. It’s normal to not like a game but despise is an odd word to use.

[soft nacelle]

You're not going to like my opinion on the Fast and the Furious movies then if you're basing stuff off of popularity haha

[spice zinc]

I was just intrigued by your thoughts of IZ. Your thoughts of COC are shared with only a minority of gamers. On mobile anyway.

[soft nacelle]

I'm old and am a PC gamer. Those in my demographic don't look too kindly on the generation of mobile gaming

[analog peak]

Does this require enough skill to be called a game?

[soft nacelle]

LOL

[analog peak]

I just upgraded my chat bot software to support pictures and a basic level of humor.. 😀

[trail knot]

and what do you do about the part: "decided by skill, strength or luck" ?
As far as i know Illuvium beyond just rewards your wallet size. Not skill, strength or luck.

[analog peak]

Have you played Beyond?

[trail knot]

play would mean it's a game. i don't see it as a game so whatever i did with it I won't call it playing.

[analog peak]

What did you do with it?

[trail knot]

Did i buy D1sks and bond some? yeah, I did. did i buy some from the secondary market to fill my collection? yeah i did. but that's not a game.

Even plaied "D1sk battles" on Kukka's cave and D1sk battle... is a game. 100% decided on luck. that works with the definition Tarren sent earlier

[slate quest]

Illuvium beyond is a game. If you gamify collecting its a game. Whether it's good or not is a separate discussion. That definition isn't what is in question here. Whether we should market it as a game is what this discussion should be.

Personally even if it's not a compelling game right now it will continue to expand until it can be considered a more thriving ecosystem of its own. At that point it would undoubtedly be called a game. Even if we decided to not call it a game now I suspect we eventually would. Is flipping it back and forth better than leaving it? I'd say no. Also if we didn't call it a game whats the alternative? Every other alternative sounds dodgy to most non crypto native consumers (nft collectables) and even if u view it that way it doesn't mean it's the best way to portray it.

[analog peak]

Good response Scoriox. Not just because it favors my side, but because it has good points.

[trail knot]

Pokémon did gamify collecting. Overworld gamifies collecting. Temtem and Yokai Watch gamify collecting. CCGs gamify collecting.
Beyond, is just not a game... Sorry if you guys don't see it that way but the truth is i'm not the only one to think like that, and viewed by the web2 audience that we all hope we'll be able to attract, calling beyond a game makes it look like any PfP project with "utility" out there, that web2 users see as scams.

Do we want to be seen as scams? I personnally don't, so what i suggest is that we or the Marketing Sub-Council brainstorm on how to brand this feature that exists within our ecosystem (and we want to sell) in a way that is not misleading or hurting our image towards web2 users.

[worthy trail]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[idle crater]

Beyond is the sidechick, main focus of marketing is on the main 3 games. Saying just because Beyond is labled as a game will make people think we are a scam project is absurd

[trail knot]

Web2 users already have 197310843 reasons to see anything related to Web3 as a scam, do we want to give them more ground to stand on?

[idle crater]

No but that depends on so many other things that wether beyond is labled as a game or not will have 0 impact or close to that

[flint oracle]

I'd like to see some thoughts regarding the in-game rewards currently going to the leaderboard of what, if this idea was implemented, would no longer be marketed as a game.

[analog peak]

I had the same reservations in the past as you mentioned here (scam, web 2 ...).

But I have come to the conclusion, that we are a web 3 meta verse and should't hide it and not be afraid of it.

When we want to attract web 2 gamers, who don't like financial games, we should direct them to our free games. If they still don't like them, then they are simply not for us.

I have seen this with other software e.g. TeamViewer:

Everyone can use their software for free, but when you do, a popup tells you that this free version is sponsored by paying users.

Beyond is special, as there is no free version. But you can buy cheap Illuvitars for a few cent. I would say this isn't a scam.

[idle crater]

If there are enough disclaimers and info its just a collection game for the time being, with other possible prospects in the future i dont see how it can be considered a scam in any way

[trail knot]

I don't think it HAS to affect the rewards. My reasoning behind this is that I remember those trading stickers made by Panini specially for events like the Football World Cup etc. There used to be rewards if you were ever able to complete your album and send it to the editor.

It has never been labelled as a game to my knowledge though.

[flint oracle]

Thanks

[rancid prawn]

Everybody new who joins illuvium should inform what games we have. I don't buy anything before i know what i am buying. If anyone buys a disk to get a illuvitar and thinks it's for the Autobattler, it's his own fault. Inform yourself before you buy anything. So its definitely not a scam and if anyone say so, he/she/... Has no idea about beyond.

[trail knot]

For me the best solution in order to get out of the "web3 are scams" stigma is to foster an image of a trustful and transparent gaming company.
If people feel like we lied to them (per example: by calling something a game when they think it isn't) we are risking that trust.

Again like i said in multiple tweets, the best way to attract web 2 users is to give them vibes of stuff they already know (the more similar our experience is to web2 the lower the friction). And that comes with our wording.
If we call something a game in needs to look like a game.

[exotic fossil]

is slot machine a game?

[trail knot]

It is. it's entirely defined by luck. you put 1$ and depending on your luck you won, or lost.

[exotic fossil]

disk is gacha

[rancid prawn]

Isn't it that what a disk is?

[idle crater]

checkmated by jaga, only took 4 words too

[flint oracle]

It's also gambling. Which is usually highly regulated. Unless it's in an arcade and called a game

[exotic fossil]

in some jurisdiction we call gambling as gaming

[trail knot]

a disk is just a pack opening, like you would open Panini trading stickers. That doesn't make it a game, and filling your album (regardless of if you think it's fun or not) isn't a game. it's Collecting.

The other thing to mention is that the entire "luck" process can be entirely bypassed due to secondary market. Therefore in Illuvium Beyond people are more likely to be rewarded for their wallet size rather than their skill, Strength or luck.

Now, enough talk about the game definition.
I think this entire topic makes very clear how unclear the Beyond as a game is, and we even struggle to justify it with the definition of the word game. So doesn't this mean that there might be something here worth digging in order to improve the brand's image?

[flint oracle]

Too true

[exotic fossil]

what is a panini trading stickers? Like the promotion stuff?

[trail knot]

Collectible stickers that come in packs and that (mostly kids) buy to fill an album of a said collection. You can find albums for pretty much any team's sport.
Panini is the name of the biggest brand of those, massively known in the USA and Europe.

They also do it as NFTs now.

[idle crater]

So pay2win games that entirely depend on wallet size and 0 skill are not games too? If there were leaderboards,monetary incentive and trading in this panini u keep mentioning, then yes it would be considered a game.

[exotic fossil]

agree

[exotic fossil]

ok im looking at it, i thought it was the food

[trail knot]

If i get points for every dish i clean and then there's a leaderboard on who got the most points at home, does that make it a game?

From my pov i'm still just cleaning my dishes even if i get rewarded with money at the end.

[idle crater]

Yes that can totally be made into a game and considered as one, would make doing dishes fun too 🙂

[exotic fossil]

yes, thats gamefied chores. Also good parenting

ill update my list

what is a game?

• does it have rules? yes
• is there a competition? Yes
• does it involves luck? Yes
• can you play it? Yes
• is it fun? Yes

[flint oracle]

I feel like the back and forth regarding what is or is not "a game" quickly becomes tedious and not entirely relevant to supporting rejecting this idea.

But I find that sometimes people enjoy playing tedious games, myself included.

[trail knot]

Where is the luck in Chess?
Where is competition in solo player games?

btw I'll join pelican here as i already tried to move out of that discussion a few times, but nobody adresses the marketing risk i mention.

[idle crater]

We did adress it, and deemed it negligible

[trail knot]

isn't this representative enough of the risk though? considering that those votes come from a community ENTIRELY made of people already convinced by web3.

[idle crater]

Could be, or people just upvoted without giving it much thought

[trail knot]

My thought is:
If we can't even convince our OWN community that it is in fact a game... How can we hope that external people won't see it from a bad angle?

[idle crater]

I think 99.9% of people wouldnt care if its considered a game or not, 0.1% may be somewhat confused and then 0.1% of those may or may not consier it a scam even though on every corner it says its just a collection game for now. Maybe I'm the dumb here, just don't see how this matters that much out of everything else about the project.

[worthy trail]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[trail knot]

oh i don't think anyone ever said it was THE top priority or even a priority at all.
Doesn't mean it's unnecessary to address.

[analog peak]

Our website specifically talks about the utility in different games, gambling etc.:

DISCLAIMER LANGUAGE:

Illuvium D1SKs contain a set of unknown, randomised virtual items for in-game use. The precise contents of each D1SK is made known upon purchase and opening.

D1SKs are:
Purchased with ETH, SILV2 with CC,DC and fiat transactions supported by our merchant partners.
Age Restricted:You warrant that you are over the age of 18 and if not, access the D1SK with the consent and supervision of your parent or guardian.
Draw/Forge Probability: The draw or forge probability is the rate (also called drop rate) for receiving a particular item in a specific D1SK pack. The drop rate for items sold in Illuvium D1SK packs is fixed. Drop rates are accessible here
Utility: D1SK contents are not intended to be confined to a single game but may be utilised within the Illuvium game ecosystem comprising Illuvium Overworld, Zero and Arena and future gaming titles produced by Illuvium.
Lawfully Accessed by you: We only offer D1SKs for sale in regions in which they are not regarded gambling products and issuers are required to be licensed. If you are from such a place, you may not access D1SKs.
The following disclosures are made in relation to your D1SK purchase:
Contents Disclosure: Details of minimum specifications for D1SK contents and drop rates per item are set out here.
No Returns: Users who are consumers may enjoy the protection of the provisions of the law of the country in which the consumer has its habitual residence. Save for the operation of laws which cannot be contractually waived, we expressly exclude and you expressly disclaim all rights to refund and return, including users who would otherwise have 14-day return rights under UK and certain EU-country distance selling laws.
Liability Disclaimer: To the greatest extent possible we disclaim all liability in respect of the issuance and sale of D1SKs and their contents.
D1SK SUPPLY
Total supply figures are approximately 100K standard D1SKs and 20K Mega D1SKs for the Alpha Wave. The known total supply figure will be determined only upon conclusion of the sale and shall be published here.

[exotic fossil]

yea people in beyond said they are having fun. it's a game.

[idle dust]

Can you elaborate on how you think the collecting part is gamified? I guess you could argue it is kind of a game, just curious about your take.
In my opinion, the definition if it is a game or not is crucial here. If it IS a game, one should Market it as a game... if it ist not, one shouldn't market it as a game.

[analog peak]

Just saw this on tokengamer.io: „Then, several months ago, Illuvium: Beyond was introduced which added a new NFT collection metagame. It is, on the face of it, an NFT PFP project, but thankfully, before I turned around and left, I read how it works — it is well thought through.“

[trail knot]

who the f*ck actually reads these? (it's completely unrealistic to assume that everyone buying it will or that it prevents us from any backlash concerning misadvertising when that's displaied... somewhere on the website to be honest i didn't even know these lines existed)

Remember that those lines prevent us from being sued! it's purely legal and has nothing to do with people's opinions/views on the project.

[full shuttle]

I know people who, as adults, play WoW exclusively for the auction house. They consider it a game. Some of them go so far as to sell their gold for profit. I don't see a fundamental difference between that activity and optimizing points to rank more highly on a leaderboard, or trading Illuvitars. The UI is different, sure, but fundamentally is it much different?

I understand that some people would not regard Beyond as a game, just as some people would not regard playing the auction house (or a comparable activity) as a game. Some people do though. That doesn't make either demographic idiots, morons or children, and there's really no reason to get so vitriolic about this issue.

[exotic fossil]

i wont regard OW as a game, it's gonna be a job for me. grind grind

[flint oracle]

👀

[idle crater]

jaga clone confirmed, original version couldnt be bothered by ow

[trail knot]

good luck xD

[exotic fossil]

this is the watered down version

[slate quest]

You need to separate out the points. Illuvium beyond is objectively a game. But as you say marketing it as a game may not be beneficial which I can see the value in. I see it more like if Pokemon were to sell TCG cards but didn't make the rulebook yet. It would still make sense for them to call the cards a game in the meantime. Especially since anyone could make up rules to play the game.

For example right this moment it would be extremely easy for anyone to build a deck builder and random number generator so they could draw cards. Then all they need to do is produce rules. We have the basis for a game already. Any singular community member could build something

[soft nacelle]

It objectively is not a game

You are putting cards in a binder

[turbid jackal]

I wish the arguments would evolve with the conversation. Does it matter that it is a "game" by some peoples definition. No. Should it be marketed as a game, that's up for debate. Debating wether or not it is a game is such a waste of time

[hearty kelp]

"If you want a more established definition then others have given it. But it's not really necessary when using common sense"

A lazy and shameful answer.

"GAME
noun
1.
an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun."

✅ Check. It's a game.

[soft nacelle]

Terrible definition

A murderer has fun killing people. Is murder a game?

[hearty kelp]

To some people yes it is.

[soft nacelle]

And that's my point. Some people can think whatever they want. It doesn't make it true. You enjoy collecting Illuviatrs. Doesnt make it something that it isnt

[hearty kelp]

People can think whatever they want, like you, but you're dead wrong.

[soft nacelle]

Good try, but no

[hearty kelp]

And you are a council member, wow. Good job on that people 👍

[soft nacelle]

I agree 🙂

[hearty kelp]

Majority disagree with your post, all that matters for now.

[soft nacelle]

Look at those people though and you can see why.

[hearty kelp]

You're priceless.

[soft nacelle]

Everyone has a price.

[hearty kelp]

I don't.
Good luck everyone! 👍

[exotic fossil]

love is a game

• adele

hunting is a game (should have been called killing innocent animals)

[trail knot]

Obviously, everyone's opinion matters. But as the top spender in Illuvitars Beyond, i fear your opinion here could be a bit biased.
You are apparently very far away from the target audience that would be likely to hate an entire project for calling a PfP project a "game". So i'd like you just keep this in mind.

My fear is not what cryptobros like you or myself would think about this marketing approach. I'm trying to make it more "acceptable" for a broader audience. (and i believe @soft nacelle too, even though his argumentary could be improved.)

[exotic fossil]

zep, you and sjud sounds like game elitist. it's tiring

try to have an open mind

there is dress up game on the app store

theres also wedding game on the appstore lmao

[soft nacelle]

lol

[trail knot]

I understand your view, but we need to, in order to attract gamers. So my question is:

Do we keep illuvium just for investors and people with Monetary gain as their only purpose? Or do we target our communication towards Gamers to potentially increase our revenue and have a constant income flow? (because gamers don't care about bear/bull market, they just play).

Both options are "viable", but i personnally prefer one to the other.

This is not Zep and SJUD willing only diehard tryhards having all the rewards. (I even said that even though i would remove the word "Game" i wouldn't change the rewards)

It's Zep, SJUD and 11 other people concerned about the image of our brand to a broader audience.

[analog peak]

What is our brand and what is a gamer?

We will have games for kids and all sorts of other games.

[soft nacelle]

We aren't going to have any other games if our first ones fail

[trail knot]

Eventually, and IF we succeed with our 1st project. Let's stay realistic please and one step at a time.

[exotic fossil]

ahh i see now, ur mad because beyond is a P2W, and you cant compete with that. sorry man but ILV is P2W

[soft nacelle]

That's not it at all

[trail knot]

1. I am not mad
2. your comment makes no sense because you have no information about my wallet or spending habits

I'm giving my opinion as someone who doesn't only work full time in Marketing but also engaged recently with more traditional gaming communities.

[exotic fossil]

beyond p2w, IZ p2w, OW p2w, leviathan p2w

[soft nacelle]

Zeptyle future Beyond Whale

[trail knot]

😂 "Beyond pro player and coach" please 😉

[soft nacelle]

Oh damn. I should expand my coaching. Good idea

[exotic fossil]

lol

[analog peak]

Okay, now we are getting somewhere.

You are worried that gamers, who would have played Arena, suddenly jump ship when they see Beyond.

Okay, fair point. I will think about it.

[exotic fossil]

they are worried that "serious" gamer would laugh at ILV for beyond

[soft nacelle]

Of course

Thats the whole reason Ive said this is a marketing issue

[trail knot]

that was the entire point the whole time.

@exotic fossil 's comment about we being "game elitists" makes no sense, SJUD trades crypto as his living and i'm also highly invested in web3. We are just as "cryptobros" as any of you guys. We are just raising a concern and proposing a solution to not turn off the broader audience from our ecosystem.

[soft nacelle]

I literally play P2E games even though everyone thinks (mistakenly) that the genre is dead

But he's also not wrong in calling us elitists haha

[exotic fossil]

maybe it's time to hear from the team, why did they call it a game in the first place?

[hearty kelp]

Because it is one 😂

[exotic fossil]

alexa, "serious" gamers strongly hate people with big wallet who wins p2w

[novel flame]

Video Game definition: a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen.

[exotic fossil]

i tried jim, but they dont want to use the definition. thats not the issue. they dont like beyond as a game because is laughable

its about the perception of ILV

lets say Diablo release a dress up game or a dating simulatiom game

[novel flame]

Tbh I actually agree with not calling it a game but I don't really like the vibe of this thread so I will keep reading and give feedback if necessary when the time comes..

[exotic fossil]

tbh im shocked that they give leaderboard to beyond. and i hate gacha. its cash grabby. but hey it raise us some runway

[novel flame]

I just ask we all be respectful to the team and not imply this or that person is an idiot, doesn't work hard, or that they aren't capable

[trail knot]

did i miss something? i don't even believe that any of that even came to the discussion.

[exotic fossil]

sorry alexa, but beyond is a new low for ILV. but its generating revenue as we speak

so lets call it a game, its working

[trail knot]

Yes 0.3eth/hour on average over the last 3 days approximately.

Thank you as well for clarifying that you don't only see the world as black or white. You also just care about immediate success and have no consideration about the future of the IP.

[exotic fossil]

u do realise when u say that, you are calling the team and council who voted for the leaderboard too

spend some time in the beyond channel, people are having fun playing it

[soft nacelle]

We arent disputing that people are having fun

[trail knot]

you are, again... making assumptions out of words i didn't say or even think... please stop that, it's a bad habit.

[exotic fossil]

ILV is a business, sometimes business do whats necessary to stay afloat in the immediate circumstances

[hearty kelp]

No need to apologise, you have the right to your opinion. I obviously disagree and think it's great. I think Beyond has a bright future and can play an integral role within the ecosystem and most importantly, continue to drive revenue. Time will tell.

[trail knot]

let's not engage into that discussion right now, it would take probably 200 more messages until we come any close to an agreement and it's not relevant to this thread.

[spice zinc]

Let’s just hope that OW makes more money than Beyond

[analog peak]

Actually I always thought you guys didn't like Beyond because of the financial aspect or for not "being a game".

Now I get the feeling it is all about not being serious (kids game) enough and tainting the image of Arena.

If this would have been stated as an explanation of the idea, we probably wouldn't have wasted so much time.

[exotic fossil]

i think it's the clown nose that really done it 😋

and the rainbow rave shades

[analog peak]

@soft nacelle and @trail knot : Is this a correct way to look at the idea?

[soft nacelle]

Personally, I don't enjoy Beyond because I just don't. Same thing with ILZ
Professionally, yes that is correct

[trail knot]

#1108647108032069692 message
#1108647108032069692 message
#1108647108032069692 message
#1108647108032069692 message
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[soft nacelle]

Now I'm not a marketing guru like Zeptyle so I cant give you the numbers and all the potential pros and cons of the whole thing.

[spice zinc]

There’s some truth to that right. Doesn’t fit well with the theme of Illuvium.

I pitch a future game that uses current game assets no one gives a F. Removing Beyond from the games section gets 300 + comments. That’s the Internet for you.

[exotic fossil]

ill get to your thread waylan, it just quite heavy for the weekend

i lost so much braincells last night

[heavy cypress]

Personally I am shocked at some of the conversation contents here. Literally the simplest feedback idea to discuss, provide relevant points and discourse.

However, there are numerous replies in this thread that perfectly demonstrate how NOT to have a productive conversation.

Doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, some people here really need to take a step back and look at their communication and replies.

I appreciate those that keep the audience in mind and strive for respectful discourse.

[spice zinc]

Haha appreciate it mate.

[exotic fossil]

it's pretty chill here

[heavy cypress]

If this is how you want governance and DAO improvement conversations to take place then your standards are incredibly low compared to the industry.

[exotic fossil]

we are just passionated

[soft nacelle]

I'm always chill

[idle crater]

This thread is just 2 edgelord grown up kids refusing to admit they are wrong, dunno why people keep posting here. Most people agreed it is and can be considered a game. What 2 people think it is is of little concern. One by one each point was addressed, most people consider it a game, period. This elitist behavior is cringe asf

[analog peak]

Okay, then we are still not on the same page.

We already agree, Beyond has game elements (not calling it a game now, to not trigger anyone).

What is left is the potential impact on "serious" Arena gamers.

I try a definition here:

A serious Arena gamer is a very competitive and fast thinker, who wants to outwit opponents in a rule based fight with a deck of Illuvials. (please provide a better one, this just came to my mind now).

In order to get these Illuvials an Arena player has to either buy Illuvials or catch them in the Overworld.

We all agree that the Overworld is not a very serious game according to this definition.

But still, Overworld is a vital part of Illuvium in its concept as a meta verse with games for all styles of players.

Players chooses the game that best suits their style and engage in an economy that unites all these games.

If we exclude certain style of games now, because they are not serious enough for other players:

How will we ever succeed as a meta verse?

I agree however with @trail knot that our marketing for Arena players should maybe happen with special landing pages etc. that only show Arena and not the complete meta verse of games.

[trail knot]

So i don't have all the numbers and could do some more extensive research if it's really required.

Pros of NOT calling it a game:

• Increased trust towards the Project and team
• Increased retention rate when web2 natives see our IP
• Clear and Clean branding

Cons:

• Would likely generate less money

How much money does Illuvium Beyond generate while being called a game?

Well according to @slim hatch the rate has been quite regular all over the month (0.3eth/h).
A spike was noticed though at 0.95eth/h for around 24h following the announcement of the leaderboards coming (last week).
So roughly the "game" generates as we speak about 400-450k$/month

How much would it generate while not being called a game but still having a leaderboard and rewards?

My personal guess is that it wouldn't hurt the revenue too much. The amount of people owning illuvitars is not really increasing and it is clear that the actual revenue keeps coming from the same users we already convinced.
It is also important to note that considering our current audience/community, it is very likely that most of those buyers would have still buy "just a PfP project".
Let's put a number, maximum 10% of revenue loss by removing the word game from the marketing.

That's** 40k/month invested in "marketing"**.
According to Kieran in this message, that's 8x what we currently spend in influencers.
#1107015649466785914 message

How many Web2 users will we turn off by keep calling it a game?

Like for the previous question, we can't provide accurate numbers on this until we try, so bare with my estimations please.

Calling something a game that a traditional gamer might not see as a game when we are a web3 project, is a potential RED FLAG.
And we all know what the logical response to a Red Flag is, it's not make more research, it's turn away from the project!

Despite that and considering all the network effect and backlash, as long as we don't get any content creator mad at us we should get away with it with just a Web2 conversion rate loss of about 15%.

(which means if the conversion rate was 10% without Beyond being called a game we would then be at 8.5%)

This number is multiplied by 4 (60% conversion rate loss) if content creators start doing bad press videos about us.

by the way @soft nacelle the message i just posted should have been your post. I encourage you as a council member to show the example and put the effort in providing all the information required for the DAO to give an educated response to your proposal. I would've obviously provided you all my experience and knowledge if needed to get to this result.

I also apologize to the DAO members who spent time on this back and forth, I realize now that because of my lack of time to put down such a message, you guys lost even more time discussing irrelevant points. I will in the future make my best to remember this experience and try to not repeat it.

[soft nacelle]

Yes obviously a more serious post would have been given for a more serious topic

[idle crater]

I think you guys are wasting ur time on this, the amount of people who care if its a game or not is tiny, and the amount of people who would view it somehow as a scam is even lower, u cant please everyone. I've seen way more often people complain that the token is expensive and only for snobbish and rich people. Should we dilute the tokenomics to 100M tokens just so its cheaper and they can afford it too? Where does it stop?

[worthy trail]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[soft nacelle]

How can the token be only for rich people. You can buy any amount of the token you want.

[idle crater]

Exactly but ive seen it many times in different channels, even though it makes no sense

[trail knot]

but you're only considering our actual exclusively web3 native audience in this comment! that's not the audience we are worried about. we are talking about ways to improve our odds to succeed at the famous mass adoption we're thriving for.

[idle crater]

It's human psychology mate, applies to web12356. Cant please everyone.

[analog peak]

How would you market Overworld to the masses? It is not a serious game according to your definition and instead about collecting. Not much different from Beyond.

[trail knot]

by the way, i've put my thoughts just a bit above. if a <@&795142782133207063> passing by could please pin this message I would appreciate just so that the future discussions on this thread remain mindful of the context and what's supposed to be discussed here. #1108647108032069692 message

[soft nacelle]

The Overworld is a very fun way to open packs for the Arena

[idle crater]

Why are you replying to me with this? I read that msg and still disagree it will have any impact

[trail knot]

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[trail knot]

Yeah cool, and just like you don't agree with my thoughts based on data and experience. I don't have to agree with you.

[idle crater]

Nothing to do with data, you took some numbers and slapped them to fit ur narrative. Experience in what field?

[analog peak]

If you marketed Illuvium like this, wouldn't you then lie about the true nature of Illuvium?

Now you go:
"Hey look at my brand new game!
Semi-Open World with 7 MASSIVE Regions to Explore!
225 Creatures to capture, train and evolve!
Fight with them in the most strategic Autobattler you've ever seen!"

This a gamer buys into. I didn't talk about money or ownership. I spoke about FUN. It all comes to knowing your customers' needs and gamers need to have fun!

Illuvium is about ownership and money unless we talk about sponsorships or scholarships.

It is a meta verse with all sorts of games for young and old, casual and serious gamers.

Each game needs to be marketed differently and for each demographic special solutions need to be cooked up.

But why in the whole world would we constraint ourselves to someones definition of serious games.

If there are gamers, who don't like the existence of less serious games, then let them go and look for some other game studio.

[idle crater]

Good resume mate, you have some experience in marketing. In gaming I guarantee you I have more. Played Dota/LoL for 15y+ as a semi-pro. Boosting accounts. Coaching amateur teams and all that. Grew up in web2 gaming space. I still think no one cares if this is labled a game or not.

[soft nacelle]

Illuvium is a PvP autobattler where instead of opening packs to get the cards in your deck you travel in the Overworld capturing Illuvials, forging Augments, etc

[analog peak]

Totally wrong !

[soft nacelle]

Nope. That is 100% what it is at the moment

[analog peak]

No

[trail knot]

very productive guys

[analog peak]

You should really look for some other game studio.

[soft nacelle]

Why?

[analog peak]

Because

[trail knot]

Yes
No
Yes
No...

Cool but the entire point of being an IBG (not metaverse), is to be able to target a wide audience and that everyone can experience our ecosystem the way they personnally like the most.

So you are both right and both wrong.

[trail knot]

And ownership for most gamers is just a buzzword with no real value. Therefore, even if we in fact empower our players with true ownership, that should not be the selling point WHEN communicating to gamers.

Money? if you still think that everyone playing overworld will make money out of it, i'm sorry can't help you bud. Fact is we are not printing money, in order for someone to make money someone else will have to lose theirs, so no, not everyone will become rich by collecting NFTs in the Overworld.

now Overworld IS a game and we're not lying about it, and i don't even see why you think that by advertising it the way i said i'm "lying"...

[spice zinc]

I vote leave it as it is. If you don’t think of it as a game you should offer advice to make it a better one.

[idle crater]

What are you talking about mate? Literally every gamer dream is asset ownership? Besides that and revdis what do we have to offer better than web2? IBG is years or a decade away

[soft nacelle]

How is it a decade away?

[idle crater]

Cause you need to finish and polish the existing games, how much time is that gonna take? 2-3 years? And then you have to build the other games to complete the IBG vision

[trail knot]

is it? We live in the era where people pay a subscription for Netflix/Spotify rather than own anything.

If they care so much about ownership... where are they? how comes they didn't adopt web3 already?

[idle crater]

They pay for all that garbage cause there is no other alternative, which we are building right now. What to adopt from web3? Its in the stone ages still

[trail knot]

and btw we are digressing again...

[idle crater]

I dont know how u think asset ownership is irrelevent, to me its what makes the whole IBG thing

[trail knot]

not saying it's irrelevant, i wouldn't be here if it was the case. I'm saying that's not what you should use as a selling point when communicating to the web2 audience.

[idle crater]

I know for a fact every wow player with 20y old accounts with all kinds of pets, rare cosmetics, mounts, achievements and gears wishes they had asset ownership

[trail knot]

again we are discussing something that is NOT the purpose of this thread...

[idle crater]

For past 48h people gave their reasonings why it should be considered a game, the majority aswell, none of that was taken into account and dismissed with edgey elitist behavior. Dunno if theres a purpose at this point

[trail knot]

Can you please show me a message from ME that is "edgey elitist behaviour". Just so i know where your line is, and potentially improve my communication.

[idle crater]

Not neccessarily you, mostly our best decorated arena player 😄 But the rest stands, dunno what else can be said about this

[soft nacelle]

Guilty

[analog peak]

I meant anyone playing Illuvium needs to think about money and ownership and if they don't like that aspect our games are not meant for them.

Unless of course they play the free version or get a scholarship.

That's what I meant with lying: We are a meta verse economy and people telling to come here, because there is lots of fun and you will get hooked like in Diablo IV is not true.

You can have fun with the free versions, but only when you start to invest money will you enjoy one Overworld run after the other.

Arena is different, you can play it for hours in survival mode just for the fun and leaderboard aspect.

But Overworld is really just a gamified card opening (at the moment), with awesome sound and graphics, but otherwise not much different than Beyond. Compared to Arena it is a toddler's game and SJUD and you still call it a game.

I remember numerous moments Grant specifically called the Overworld easy and playable by everyone. It is not meant to be serious, expect for the monetary aspect.

And for the same reason Beyond is also meant to be playable by everyone and at the moment a rather simple game.

[exotic fossil]

this thread just proved that gamers make the worst game producer

[soft nacelle]

It does not

[idle crater]

This thread is just 400 comments stroking the ego of OP or why he doesn't consider it a game 😆
10/10 trolling, i had some fun. See u later guys

[analog peak]

🙂

[high marten]

👎👎👎👎👎 Worst proposal I have seen to date.
Will be fun to see your next one, maybe that will top it 😊

Can we begin a proposal to have you removed from council, serious question.

[soft nacelle]

lol

[lethal mesa]

I wanted to offer my opinion on this because I don't particularly enjoy Beyond and have some concerns about it's current role in the ILV ecosystem (to be clear I LOVE my illuvitars but don't really care for the collectable part)

@soft nacelle as a suggestion, when you post things like this:
#1108647108032069692 message

You disincentivize engagement and set the tone for what all of this was. At least that's what happened in my particular case, I knew were it was going and I couldn't be bothered with this back and forth

[soft nacelle]

What do you love about the Illuvitars if not for the collectible part? Isn't the the whole appeal of them?

[lethal mesa]

I love that I pulled a holo dash from that pure luck disk and now I can see it as my PFP whenever I logg into the OW/Arena UI.....feels very rewarding and personal to look into the accesories I like the most to form an ILV digital representation of me (not because of points). This does not stop at 1 illuvitar but at the ones I personally enjoy (don't care too much about the backgrounds)

[soft nacelle]

So you actually like it more from the straight PFP NFT angle.

[lethal mesa]

Yes absolutely, but that is my personal preference

[limber crystal]

Maybe the difference between stamps and illuvitars is that you don't know what you are getting before you get it.
I agree here it's subjective and it's hard to find the true name or definition as it's a new meld of concepts.
I suppose if I brought a pack of magic the gathering cards, I'd be hoping to get a great card to trade, sell or use in my deck.
So that is part of the game/ yet not the game itself.
Illuvitars so far are not part of the game? Hints that it might be.
Perhaps the community members that wanted it to be different can add here.

So far I'm not sure what to call it. I'm not sure that it matters atm as it's still emerging and growing.
I see that it's enjoyed and people want to get to the leader board to gain rewards, so in a way it's a gamified collection?

[soft nacelle]

Buying a pack of magic cards is not part of the game

Just like going to the store to buy a baseball bat is not part of the game of baseball

[limber crystal]

That's kind of your whole argument. Many people see colours differently. It's based on your brain's conversion of light signals, your eyes ability to see and also perspective and knowledge.
I have no stake in what it is called, yet I would be happy to see a formed iip and look at the reasons.
I think at this point it's not necessary yet something that would benefit from broader discussion and determining through marketing ( guessing) what people think it is.
At this point the discussion is about what is and what isn't a game. You could go down the rabbit hole and say everything is a game.

[soft nacelle]

I also much prefer the term you used with "gamified collection" rather than pure game as a compromise

[limber crystal]

It has been stated there may be elements in the future that will tie into the game.

[limber crystal]

It was stated that there will be a mechanic regarding burning of acssesories. Look at the video with TSG Scoriox and Keiran.
There is also an economic explainer coming up which may shed light on this topic.

[limber crystal]

I kind of agree. I'm finding you are making statements that are not entirely true in themselves.

[soft nacelle]

You're free to believe whatever you want to believe

[limber crystal]

What about the overworld you have also called that a card collection. Although it has many other elements.
I think its semantics. As far as I'm aware illuvitars were originally pfps then the community wanted more and increased the scope. Its evolving, as such is like to see input from the team as well.
Again I don't think now is the time to make that change.

[soft nacelle]

Overworld is a pack opening at its core that they turned into a game. It's a great idea in my opinion.

[limber crystal]

My understanding is illuvitars are geared towards web3 natives. People who are already in crypto and enjoy this type of platform.

[limber crystal]

It is not a question of belief yet of what has been stated as opposed to your statements.

I don't believe changing it now will have any benefit. Yet I do see from the discussion you created that there is need for greater clarity to clear up misinformation.

[shy wraith]

I think we are good to close this off for now, @soft nacelle as OP are you satisfied?