Kierans Suggestion to Dissolve Marketing sub-council

[willow dirge]

I wanted to place this tweet someplace where there could be a cohesive conversation and garner community feedback.

We are facing a significant challenge with our Governance V2 marketing nominees, as they need to possess the requisite marketing experience. Given this situation, I propose drafting an (IIP) to restructure the governance model. This IIP would recommend dissolving the marketing sub-council and delegating marketing responsibilities to the core team while ensuring close collaboration and alignment with the (IMC). This approach will streamline decision-making and leverage the expertise of the core team to address marketing objectives more effectively.

Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/KieranWarwick/status/1656317851152830465

Kieran.eth ♊️ (@KieranWarwick)

We are facing a significant challenge with our Governance V2 marketing nominees, as they need to possess the requisite marketing experience. Given this situation, I propose drafting an (IIP) to restructure the governance model. This IIP would recommend dissolving the marketing…

Twitter · May 10, 2023, 3:18 PM

[pliant stone]

Thank you for creating this @willow dirge !!

[rustic schooner]

I disagree that every nominee is unqualified or lacking experience. Each of us are experienced in different ways, some more than others I'm sure, but to state categorically that we are "facing a significant challenge with our Gov V2 marketing nominees" is a bad take... or at the very least a misinformed one.

I have nothing against Kieran obviously, but c'mon, how is this going to be proposed halfway into the election after Gov v2 has passed through multiple iterations and a unanimous approval. If there is a concern that nominees need to have required experience, then that should be the change, and it should be made prior to Epoch 9.

It's wild to me to say this doesn't work when we haven't even seen it in action yet. I have many ideas on how to effectively assist the DAO's existing marketing efforts but haven't even gotten the chance to get in there and demonstrate it yet.

In short, I think this is an impulsive take, and I hope the other Council members will support a less extreme and less impulsive decision here - @summer swallow @dawn prism @spiral lagoon @coral quest

[warm shore]

I think this tweet completely discredits the entire DAO system. Kieran was one of the Council members who voted for Gov v2, he got all the time required to voice his concerns. the fact that he voices it now and that way, halfway through the voting process is a scandal. I'd also like to bring some light to the fact that a good portion of the Marketing sub-council nominees actually have as strong if not stronger credentials than some people in the actual Marketing team...

[summer swallow]

I'd like to hear Kieran elaborate as a minimum. His tweet seems very broad and open to interpretation. I'm open to hearing out any singular voice. That includes Kieran. Obviously that includes all community members that discuss here as well.

@eager plover

[rustic schooner]

Yeah i mean i would agree that maybe we're misinterpreting his position

[tender bough]

If we're looking like that at the Marketing Sub-Council, then I think we can say the same about other Councils as well.

But the main questions has to be - what are we exactly doing now? Gov V2 document passed a month ago with 5-0 after 3 iterations. I guess everybody in the Council were happy with it.

Now we are unhappy with candidates a month later so we want to change Gov V2 document depending on that?

[rustic schooner]

This could have changed recently, but as someone who is working closely with Illuvium's previous Digital Marketing Manager on other ventures (Ena), my understanding is that the core team's marketing footprint is very small to begin with. Again, this could have changed since Ena left, but that wasn't that long ago. I still don't really understand how the marketing sub-council could harm the core team's ability to do their job. We aren't the core marketing team. We aren't the "doers" we are the big-picture idea guys. We provide feedback, suggestions, guidance, etc., to the core marketing team. It feels like this interpretation by Kieran suggests that the Marketing sub-council is effectively replacing the DAO's core marketing team and I know that's not what any of us signed up to do anyways, nor would we want to do that.

[warm shore]

I mean game and community's credentials... ok whatever... like what requirements can you ask?
but yeah if that's the case for Marketing, why isn't it for Strategy per example? do all the nominees have experience making strategy decisions for businesses that are worth Millions of $ ?

[trail phoenix]

This was my thought as well, I thought the sub-counsel was the communities voice concerning marketing. Not employees.

[rustic schooner]

I think the line is getting blurred and we collectively need to be on the same page on this, for all sub-councils. We are not core-team. We aren't replacing the core team in any of this across any sub-council, we are representative's of the community on these areas.

[warm shore]

I mean i think it's safe to assume they are very small since Tarren, "influencer manager" told us during the panel Interview that they actually wanted to leverage our manpower for some tasks.

[warm shore]

💯

[rustic schooner]

If that's the case, that's cool, within reason, but let's not blur the line. This line for all sub-councils should be clearly defined. It's one thing for our manpower/task to be networking for the DAO, cool, but we shouldn't be replacing Illuvium's core marketing team in any of the efforts they are doing.

To be clear - I would also be supportive of required experience instead of suggested experience, but that change should be made prior to Epoch 9. It's wild to me that we can be halfway through an election and suggest this just because of perceived concerns of qualification.

[jaunty reef]

I want to clarify that I said, it was MY expectation that ideally, the marketing sub council would act as an extension of the marketing team.

This does not represent the teams expectations, just my own.

[vague kettle]

This seems out of character for Kieran.
This should have been handled before votes were opened up.
Worst case of continuing is that the marketing council comes with suggestions that ILV Labs doesn't follow up on, that seems less harmful than dissing the marketing nominees and the holders that already voted for them.

[warm shore]

Thank you for making it clear. But we can consider you as part of the marketing team no?

[rustic schooner]

Acting as an extension of the marketing team is even not what is being construed as the problem imo. If the problem is that the core team is more qualified to do actual marketing than the marketing council, then okay, the marketing council does not want to interfere with the core team's ability to do actual marketing. It really feels like everyone has a different understanding of what the marketing sub-council will be doing.

[tender bough]

From Gov V2 official doc:

Marketing Sub-Council Duties & Responsibilities:
Propose, ideate, revise, recommend or reject all marketing related IIPs or ICCPs including but not limited to Marketing Opportunities, Product Marketing Budgets, Strategic Events, External Partnerships, Guild/Infrastructure Relationships

[halcyon smelt]

Wild to think @warm shore and @rustic schooner are seen as unfit for duty 😧

Those guys certainly know more about marketing than anyone in the team currently. (Maybe except Andrew)

[harsh totem]

How about just go with something that’s been decided and voted on for once

[halcyon smelt]

Would it be fear to loose control rather than incompetent people ?

[harsh totem]

I think both things you mentioned here already exists so what’s the difference

[halcyon smelt]

Savage 🫣

[rustic schooner]

i have the utmost respect for the current marketing team, kieran's marketing input, andrew, etc., but it's simply not true to say that the nominees here are unqualified.

[tender bough]

It's hard to say someone is unqualified as there are no qualifications for the spot.

[warm shore]

and some of the nominees if not most actually have proven record of what they're capable of.

[rustic schooner]

exactly, that's why i feel like this is a misinformed assumption lol.

[halcyon smelt]

Misinformed and insulting

But what’s the point of making a tweet about it ? Why isn’t an idea initiated here and discussed … rather than a tweet …. I mean …

[tender bough]

From Gov V2 official doc:

Marketing Sub-Council Recommended Experience:
Potential Candidates should be familiar with marketing in some capacity whether that be from previous industry experience or from building their own personal brand. It is preferable that they have some knowledge of existing Web 3 infrastructure and either have or can create powerful Web 3 networks. These Web 3 communications are the driving force of partnerships in Web 3 gaming and being familiar with the ecosystem as a whole is important.
Candidates that have some prior experience in marketing, journalism, communications and business may have an advantage in being able to bring partnerships to Illuvium. However it is most important that they have strong communication skills and have no problem building relationships in the Web 3 space

[warm shore]

yep so... what nominee de we expect underqualified for this task? personnally after hearing all of us I can't think about a single name

[hushed raft]

Is there any chance his account is compromised? It's a strange tweet, out of his character, strange timing, bad suggestion, possibly harmful for the project credibility, and normally he should be ready to instantly engage in discussion. Now just silence

[rustic schooner]

I believe he's in discussion with the other council members on this already so I don't believe that's the case.

[naive lynx]

This seems like a Kieran Warwick master bait course lol

[harsh totem]

It’s absolutely not out of character tbh

[rustic schooner]

Yeah so based on this, I think everyone has a claim to their experience based on the panels and conversations I've had with the others. Some are obviously more qualified than others, but that is why this is an election. You have to trust that the DAO will elect the most qualified people for the roles.

I think it's disrespectful to the DAO to assume that the wrong people will be elected just because they are running. And if this is a concern, then going forward it should be required/verifiable experience.

[tender bough]

There was a lot of talk during Gov V2 drafts about how qualified people need to be and if they need to be qualified at all. The sentiment in the end was: if somebody is not qualified they won't get any votes.

[warm shore]

so what changed?

[tender bough]

And I still think (and hope) everything that is verifiable will be verified by the team in the end.

[meager spindle]

The council should vote based on what’s best for the DAO. Voting something like this through would bring into question how strong the DAO is. If the council was doing there job do we need to worry about something like this passing?

[mystic oak]

I believe the concern is not that the wrong people will be elected rather than building an experienced council from all candidates. I mean whats the problem with an IIP and a discussion about this?

[warm shore]

I mean council members are all under NDA they're also all Doxxed to the team, so verifying shouldn't be too much of a problem NORMALLY. and even if they "don't" let's say ONE unqualified person gets in, (and it wouldn't be the 1st time) it's still just one voice, hard to say that it actually hurts the project.

[jolly beacon]

"Could be a good idea to onboard the most qualified candidates for marketing sub-council into the team to not miss out on highly experienced individuals that came forward, if the marketing sub-council is dissolved.
Then again, hiring the highly qualified individuals might cost more than the full council would be paid."

still standing with my comments on twitter about this. would be a shame to not give many talented people among the candidates the chance to prove themselves and show their value, to dissolve them at this time i think is the wrong reaction to a concern that has been voiced many times before.

obviously it's hard to argue from an outside perspective about these internal things - for example if the marketing team needs help these coming 6 months - I'm assuming they would, but I'm talking more from a logical standpoint.

[rustic schooner]

I actually don't have a problem with an IIP and discussion about this but I think it was presented in an inappropriate way/at an inappropriate time and in a way that actually tarnishes the validity of the DAO's decision-making process.

[warm shore]

yeah you said that in twitter as well... and while i don't disagree that it is a possible option... I think most of us would cost way more than 1.5k if we were to be hired.

[rustic schooner]

I mean, just using myself as an example, I have a full-time job as the Founder of another GameFi project, so I wouldn't even be available for hire for any amount of money. Why would we turn away qualified people for a council seat when they also aren't available to be full-time employees? lol

[warm shore]

Ngl, 1.5k is what i get for working 1day/week and I also like too much my actual position to change

[rustic schooner]

Point being, we didn't apply to be employees, or even because the money is instrumental (yes i'm using this word again), we applied because we care about Illuvium and want to leverage our otherwise-expensive experience to better the project we love.

[warm shore]

Very well said sir 👌

[rustic schooner]

So in conclusion, in my opinion anyways, I have faith that the existing Council will stand their ground on this and fear not. The community should do their research, and elect nominees who are the most qualified. Believe that those people have the best interests of the DAO in mind, and are willing to work in tandem with the existing Marketing team (without replacing the existing Marketing team). Give us a chance to show what we can do. If it fails or is ineffective, this is why we are community-governed... vote then to dissolve the Marketing council and/or enact experience requirements prior to the next election.

[warm shore]

In addition to this, it is important to note that the vote of no confidence exists in our DAO so if anyone within the DAO strongly believes that X or Y isn't qualified for the position or don't have the benefits of the DAO as 1st interests, that person can be removed from their position.

[mystic oak]

Yes man idk i think the IIP is not about you and im not fan of calling people out or start a discussion who is experienced enough and who isnt

[eager plover]

I want to clarify that I hold great respect for all the nominees vying for the marketing role. However, the apparent lack of specific marketing experience is concerning. Although I supported Gov V2 and even conceived the initial concept, I anticipated attracting multiple candidates with proven experience, such as marketing degrees or substantial years in marketing positions within startups. The absence of such qualifications makes me genuinely concerned that the elected individuals may not possess the necessary skills to fulfil the role as expected

[coral quest]

Having spent hours pouring over Gov V2 (and additional hours in meetings about qualifications specifically), we chose the wording in Gov V2 very specifically to indicate that experience is recommended, not required. I personally felt this to be in line with the stipend the DAO is able to offer at this stage of development. If we (the DAO) identify qualifications as an issue in practice, a change during the next epoch could be appropriate.

I personally remain confident in the systems put in place with Gov V2. I believe it's the most logical way to proceed. Further evaluation of the efficacy of all sub-councils (not just marketing) should be completed during next epoch to evaluate where the DAO is deriving value. Drawing conclusions prior to having that data wouldn't make sense to me.

A change like this during voting would be a betrayal of the time and effort put forward by our marketing sub-council nominees, who I personally feel are overqualified in light of the stipend offered. Council duties are very much so a passion project for many of the nominees when compared with full-time employment.

As it stands, I would not support disbanding the marketing sub-council. As a few people have pointed out, changes to the structure are possible during the epoch, as is the removal of underperforming council members through the Vote of No Confidence mechanism.

I should also reiterate that I hold the belief that sub-councils can and should provide value where they can, but structurally, sub-council membership are not employees of Labs. At this early stage of development, if a candidate is willing to help facilitate a marketing partnership directly through their contacts, that's fantastic. However, the primary role of all sub-councils, in my mind, is to provide direction and support, as opposed to completing tasks.

[rustic schooner]

This is why I love ya Blickter, well said imo.

[halcyon smelt]

Look at Taren linkedin, and tell me it have the level of qualification to be at his current position.

Still, doesn’t mean he does a bad job, right ?

Stop being biased, there are excellent people in there. They will challenge you and youll have to find a direction as a team.

Isn’t it the point of a dao ? Stronger together and all this.. ?

[eager plover]

It's not a matter of bias. The concern is about attracting top-tier talent that can enhance our marketing team with data-driven insights and expertise acquired over years of experience. Without that, what's the ultimate goal? There is a risk of ending up in a situation where I may provide the most valuable insights due to my experience, and then the question arises: why would the DAO want a majority of inexperienced individuals advising someone who is well-versed in the best strategies for marketing the DAO? Remember, the aim of a DAO is to be stronger together, and that strength comes from diverse yet experienced perspectives working as a team

[sharp fox]

Absolutely agree with every word.

It does raise a question though. What happens when this IIP is rejected and we then have a Marketing sub council that kieran has no confidence in? Can't exactly walk back such a public criticism now.

[rustic schooner]

I'd love to get in and kick ass and prove him wrong tbh lol.

*Respectfully

[eager plover]

Ultimately, my concern is that the sub-council might depend heavily on the expertise of the existing CCs, which could render this particular sub-council redundant. While I acknowledge that fresh ideas may emerge, it's important to note that as the core team, we already tap into the community's ideas to develop our marketing strategy. The goal should be to strike a balance between incorporating new perspectives and leveraging proven experience

[halcyon smelt]

Then expand your idea.

Disband the DAO and we all move on.

Finding experienced people willing to help the project for 1 day of salary and facing continued intellectual fights with the team… better give up right now and maybe bring back the idea of the DAO when the project will have enough money to pay for the level of people you expect.

[fresh kiln]

How is this helpful to anyone

[eager plover]

I mean no disrespect to the nominees; it's commendable that we have lawyers and "financial experts" like yourself volunteering their time and insights. I had simply anticipated a larger talent pool of experienced marketers to choose from. That said, it's worth noting that the web3 space, in general, faces a shortage of marketing experts as a whole

[rustic schooner]

I get the concern, I guess I'm just not understanding why this concern wasn't baked into the initial Gov v2 proposal. This should not be an issue that catches us blind-sided. If the DAO believes proven experience is important, then it should be required experience and not recommended experience.

I think Blickter actually sums up my feelings and previous messages here nicely. I'm not suggesting you are wrong, I would advocate for *required experience instead of recommended, but it seems like now is not the time to make that change and to suggest otherwise feels disrespectful to the nominees and tarnishes the reputation of the DAO's process.

[halcyon smelt]

So maybe it make sense to leverage on good profile willing to give their time to the team without being remunerated correctly for their time lol

I’m lost trying to understand your strategy here to be honest

The project is nowhere, community shrinking, people involved dropping daily. And you want and extended pool of talents and experienced people ?

Take what you’ve, be happy with it. And if you aren’t, gov2 give you the tools to act (no confidence vote etc) Yi even have a second layer of validation above the marketing council in case something goes wrong….

[eager plover]

I take responsibility for not being as involved in the formation of Gov 2 as I should have been. My intention was to attract proven experts in their respective fields to supplement the team of CCs. The absence of such a requirement in the brief was evidently an oversight on my part

Once more, Gov V2 is designed to complement the core team. Despite any potential lack of experience, it doesn't diminish the value of the DAO. I merely wanted to emphasise that I had anticipated a deeper pool of talent among the nominees. It's important to consider that we have lawyers, accountants, and economists who regularly engage with me. It could be that marketing expertise is simply an area where there is a gap in this particular field

[harsh totem]

Your intention sounds like a recruitment process for contractors. I think the expectations of nominees across all sub-councils are as expected when it comes to a voluntary community driven DAO council

[halcyon smelt]

Gov2 passed 5-0 … even if you were against it would have passed anyway …

[eager plover]

I conceived it... why would I be against it

[fresh kiln]

Easier said than done, but a Head of Marketing position for Illuvium should be a CC and the sub council consults and supports the CC with whatever tasks / ideas formed as a whole

[halcyon smelt]

Strange, you were not in the working group that created a first version. And I know because I was in.

But that’s not the point, you point wasn’t about being the creator of gov2 it was about being against. And as it would be A 4-1z it would still have passed 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyway back to your tweet, we deviate to nowhere here. We better go back on track.

[fresh kiln]

this is one Epoch of many to come and let the process playout as it is the first of it's kind.

[rustic schooner]

Marketing experience is not as easily 'quantified' as lawyers, accountants, economists. You are describing two very different skill sets. One is highly specialized, the other is much more open to interpretation. I can sit here and talk data, analytics, KPIs, and all of that stuff until we're blue in the face, but that is not what we need out of a marketing council, that is what you/Illuvium Labs needs from a head of marketing.

[mystic oak]

the only questions everybody should be answer is: Are the marketing sub council nominees underqualified and if yes, is an underqualified sub council better than no marketing council?

[halcyon smelt]

Personal opinion:

I think you’re afraid to have a group to handle that won’t be easy to force in the direction that you want.

[half arrow]

I was never particularly keen on joining the council, because I like to freely express my thoughts without worrying about reelection/being political, and gaming marketing isn't my forte. But, if we choose to keep the council, I'm open to running (assuming we open it up again) if people think my experience could be useful.

-I've been involved in crypto since 2017 and managed to grow my portfolio by 100x since then. (I'll doxx my sol trading address where I ran up 10k to 400k in 1.5 months, if needed. To kieran or someone like that)
-I successfully led the marketing for a tech startup, leading to a 25 million-dollar exit.
-For two years, I worked at an agency where I built and revamped tech stacks for organizations, including CRM, website, ads, data analytics platforms, and operational tools.
-At the moment, I'm handling a yearly ad spend budget of 4 million dollars for a major tech company.

[mystic oak]

you just complained about deviation yet you are the only one who brings too much emotion into this

[eager plover]

It seems you have misunderstood my vision for Gov V2. I intended to bring experts across all sub-councils to enhance the development of our games. My concern is specifically about one sub-council, based on the nominees' backgrounds. Perhaps it's too early to tell, but voting for candidates without proven marketing experience contradicts my initial objective. I acknowledge my error in this particular case and with this specific sub-council. If we had several experienced marketers, I would be thrilled. Once again, I deeply appreciate all the nominees and their commitment to the DAO, but this outcome was not what I had originally intended

[halcyon smelt]

So just make the iip and see the discussion with community and council about a need of decision, not a tweet 😁

[eager plover]

lol. Then who came up with the concept?
It's amazing how you will undermine yourself just to pit yourself against me

[halcyon smelt]

Not at all, I’ve no feeling here. Just sad for the valuable people wanting to help the project that are just treated like shit.

But I’m not surprised.

i already said, I would prefer no council, no masquerade, just a team in charge with a better level of communication.

[tender bough]

I would argue (and no offence to anyone in Game Sub-Council) that Ben and Aaron won't be able to learn a lot from the candidates chosen for the Game Sub-Council. I guess we could say the same for every Sub-Council.

But I'm not sure that's the reason we had Gov V2 in the first place.

[mystic oak]

I agree that how its went and is now is not good looking and shouldnt happend like this. If the council is for this IIP it would be only fair to the candidates that they could apply for the community council and this one election should be repeated.

[pastel ivy]

The pay changed from 5k to 1.5k and you expected more experienced candidates than before?

[eager plover]

As Aaron rightly pointed out, our DAO structure empowers members with the ability to make decisions about leadership positions through voting. If you believe that my qualifications as a CEO are not adequate for the effective management of this project, I encourage you to exercise your voting rights accordingly. This democratic process ensures that our organisation's leadership is accountable and aligned with the collective preferences of its members

[half arrow]

there are tons of those projects out there! I can recommend a few if you would like maybe you will feel more at home there.

[warm shore]

I mean that's not even the question... apparently, if i understood correctly: The actual Marketing team is understaffed, and Kieran was hoping to have people who cost 5Digits each for 1.5k each instead.

Which then yeah, i get why he's disappointed, none of us are that profile he describes. But according to the Gov v2 doc and what a Council actually is supposed to be, I believe none of the nominees is underqualified for the role

[half arrow]

I mean I thought we were going to have people with actual marketing experience bc they are going to vote on stuff and make decisions. So I understand the concern

[eager plover]

I have been approached by several individuals holding high-level positions who have expressed their willingness to contribute their expertise to our project on a voluntary basis. Their motivation for doing so is rooted in their significant investments in the project. It is reasonable to assume that, given their job titles, they possess substantial financial resources, which they have used to buy into our project. As a result, they have a vested interest in ensuring the success of their investments. However, I acknowledge that my earlier assessment of the marketing aspect was not accurate, and I agree that there is considerable room for improvement in this domain within our space

[pastel ivy]

So let them run for council? Am I missing something here?

[rustic schooner]

i would hope that people running for marketing sub-council with no marketing experience would simply not be elected. Do we really have this little faith in the community's judgement?

[eager plover]

Again, I thought they would, that was my mistake

[eager plover]

For what it's worth, I did vote for you 🙂

[halcyon smelt]

So you just wanted big investors to be on the marketing council ? Or experienced people ?

I don’t get the strategy anymore here

[rustic schooner]

I appreciate it, and I hope I am not coming off as attacking your beliefs, I may just disagree with some of them lol.

[eager plover]

I wanted experienced marketing people, who happen to have a large net-worth due to their high paying salaries...

[halcyon smelt]

Well experience people will definitely do better than deathrace and bulldog partnerships.

But here what you say is I want guys with 20 years of experiences. I can’t recruit them today because I can’t pay them, I even don’t have the pool of talent available. But let’s get 4 for free, sounds like a good strategy.

I keep my opinion, you just wanted your guys that you can get in line and do what you want.

If that’s not the case, then what are you afraid of ? Some of those candidate could surprise you. And if they are shut at their job, get them remove, done and we move on. Failed experiment proven, but for now I don’t see the red flag you talk about and don’t understand your strategy.

[sharp fox]

Congrats on being the most wanted out of the unwanted. I guess 😅

[rustic schooner]

[warm shore]

[willow dirge]

#bringbackemojis

[mystic forge]

#hugofcompassion

[polar kernel]

Can the mods just put every emoji on every message pls 😅

[warm shore]

@pastel ivy PLEASE why are you the only one who can emoji? 😦

[half arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/weird-al-crazy-wow-creepy-nuts-gif-5547782

[pastel ivy]

Something about security or something. I can look up Jeremy his reasoning tomorrow if you want. I’m in bed now.

[willow dirge]

I would love the reasoning to include when I draft my IIP to bring them back

[eager plover]

Strategy? That's a weird word for you to use. Wasn't your last tweet "Fuck the team"

[halcyon smelt]

Out of context and unrelated. But ok sure whatever, that some mature answer 🤣

Kk thx bye

[pastel ivy]

#💬〕general message

[half arrow]

I just watched the vod of the marketing council. No offence but ya almost no one actually has any marketing experience at a dao or even a company. None expressed any demonstrated skills that would make up the essentials of a competent marketing team.

[eager plover]

kk thx bye (Your superior financial advisor who refuses to reveal it's qualifications)

[half arrow]

most wouldn't even get an interview at most orgs if we are being honest

[eager plover]

Why do I engage with this troll (who has the DAOs best interests at heart)

[eager plover]

Again, is my point, I love them all - but I wanted expertise where I lack it

[tender bough]

I agree with you. I wouldn't get an interview in most companies that are looking for someone in marketing now (apart from some that were recruiting me 2-3 years ago). I also don't want a marketing job.

But as I understood it, this isn't a job. As the Gov V2 states: Sub-Council is here to propose, ideate, revise and recommend marketing related IIPs or ICCPs. That's why I nominated myself. I'm active in this community and trying to help the community for over a year. I would argue that I did more work promoting Governance and candidate bios than even Illuvium (apart from TSG). I'm willing to put in time. I'm willing to help being a bridge between community and marketing of Illuvium. I'm willing to do my best for Illuvium.

But if that and my previous marketing experience (that is not that impressive if we're being honest) is not enough, I'm ready to step down and hopefully a better candidate with more experience can get the few votes I was gonna get.

[eager plover]

As a founding member of this project, I recognise the importance of my concerns and the impact they can have. Given the numerous responsibilities I manage daily, I only address issues that I genuinely believe to be pressing. By discussing this matter publicly, I aim to demonstrate my commitment to tackling potential problems and ensuring our project's continued success.

However, I acknowledge that I overlooked the stipulation requiring nominees to possess relevant experience for serving on the council. I am uncertain how this was misconstrued, as the primary intention behind conceiving Governance V2 was to bring forth expertise across multiple fields. After reviewing Blickter's message, it appears that experience was not a strict requirement but rather a valuable addition. Moving forward, I believe we should emphasise the importance of expertise in the nomination process to maintain high standards within our organisation. Mainly I blame @vague grove

[vague grove]

https://tenor.com/view/trump-blame-everybody-is-blaming-me-messed-up-president-gif-8010663

[rustic schooner]

Wish i could 🤣 reaction that last part

[warm shore]

You don't need to answer to that mate...

[eager plover]

Also, our chief financial advisor says I did not concept Gov V2

[rustic schooner]

But to your point, I would be an advocate for better defined experience requirements for future epochs for what that's worth.

I personally don't think you're unqualified @tender bough and I know you care about Illuvium enough to give a crap what's going on. I'd stay in, but ultimately it's of course your decision.

[tender bough]

That's something myself and few others were pushing during the Gov V2 drafts. The main counterpoint was that if we want a democratic vote, there is no experience required. One example was, to be the president of USA you only need to be over 35 and from the USA.

[rustic schooner]

I see both sides. In a perfect world, I would hope that the community would just identify people as unqualified and not vote for them. Thus democracy is born and the qualified make their way into Council.

[coral quest]

Verification is a major pain point with strict requirements. It was certainly something that got talked over quite a lot.

[rustic schooner]

Yeah, that's true.

[tender bough]

That is also a great point, many people wouldn't even nominate themselves if they have to dox before even elected. And that's not something we want in the end...

[eager plover]

You mean lehelel showing credentials that make him more adept than Danny 🤣

[tender bough]

In a perfect world we would have much more qualified individuals going for Sub-Council spots.

I know I'm not the perfect candidate, I'm ready to step down as soon as we get the perfect candidates. But currently, I only nominated myself as I believed I can help. I'm sure everyone who is nominated is thinking the same.

[eager plover]

As an American, how did that go for us?

[proud bronze]

If Nominated I wanna prove Kieran wrong so bad.

[eager plover]

But you also know I am logical. So how do you deal with that?

[tender bough]

I'm not American, I'm just saying that was mentioned during the discussion about the Gov V2 document. That's was one of the reasons why there aren't minimum requirement.

[eager plover]

I honestly don't know how I missed this because one of the first things I said to Rich was I want to ensure people on the council are actually qualified

[mystic forge]

The logic is having the Marketing Chief you expect in the core team

[vague grove]

[eager plover]

Can we remove the slowmode here please??

[proud bronze]

How do I deal with your logic? How does that affect my capability to be an effective Marketer?

[eager plover]

@serene lily

[serene lily]

someone was faster

[eager plover]

You may be amazing, but I've been through enough people to not want to take chances. I did say to the team the other day - how does F4E get so much engagement

[proud bronze]

Consistency and passion

[tender bough]

I guess other 4 council members decided it's better to not have minimum requirements.

But it would also be pretty silly (in my opinion) if we only got 1 person nominated (for 4 spots) for the Marketing Sub-Council because nobody can live up to the standard and minimal requirements.

[eager plover]

Fair, and with 2 others that have mega credentials, I would then vote for you but I haven't seen anyone with credentials

[eager plover]

I voted for that too. Oversight. The whole purpose of this was to draw on the communities expertise

Again, I blame @vague grove

[rustic schooner]

I understand the concern, I just think you will be pleasantly surprised what some of us going for marketing sub can do in the position, and if others on the council aren't as qualified, as long as they are passionate about the project and bring creativity to the discussions, I think it will be a net positive.

Everyone on the council does not have to have a long history of KPIs to contribute to the proposed scope of work

I too like to blame @vague grove though

[eager plover]

That's why I voted for you

[pastel ivy]

I just wanna blame @vague grove

[vague grove]

Yeah fuck that guy

You what they call this time in America

[polar kernel]

Damn, our best council members to date do not all have amazing credentials. I, for one, am happy to have dedicated, committed, smart, and passionate community members running for the sub-councils. IMO they don't necessarily need to complement Kieran or Illuvium Labs, but instead, they should be able to bring their own ideas and vet the community's ideas. The Illuvium Labs team is small, and the people consulting Kieran are also limited…. the community is larger, and its ideas as a whole can be better than just a few. A diversity of views has been proven to come up with better solutions, so having a range of different perspectives on the council can only be beneficial.

[eager plover]

"the people consulting Kieran are also limited" thats bodacious

[half arrow]

it's not a job, but you might vote on real marketing strategies. So you do need to be qualified to hold one of those positions/or have some demonstrated track record - how else will the community have confidence that you will make good decisions?

[rustic schooner]

I think you and others should just not vote for someone that you don't have confidence in their credentials.

[tender bough]

How are you getting voted in the council if community doesn't have confidence in you??

[rustic schooner]

bingo lol.

[cinder oak]

To my understanding people have to be honest in their Bio because if they are elected they would Sign an NDA with the team alongside which they would Doxx to the team (which they should have mentioned in the nominee questionnaire if u ask me)

There are no minimum requirements of Qualifications, but what Qualifications you say that you have affect how voters will vote and those Qualifications must be verified if you are elected 100% so that nobody can just make shit up.

Still no minimum requirement on qualifications

[eager plover]

Hi Vet

19 downvotes, this almost calls for my friends at Coin Telegraph

[sharp fox]

1 up vote...I blame @vague grove

[rustic schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-angry-punho-fechado-de-gif-26104429

[serene lily]

He's obligated by law

[rustic schooner]

Likely story

[eager plover]

Surely at some point I get voted off

[mystic oak]

when this all works out they will be quiet

[half arrow]

I'm sorry but I'm not sure anyone has the skills or track record that would qualify them to be on a new/small marketing team based on the comments. Only the secondary skills are present. (you do seem the most qualified, you probably have good marketers you have to ask questions too)

No one talked about the website, crm, the tech stack at all, current ads, operations (technical and working with external partners on marketing RE: the team), literally any fundamental marketing strategy, or any discussion about web3 specific strategies (except giving away packs). It was almost all partnerships, influencer stuff, and vague ideas on whether we should run ads or not.

That said - I do think there is lot you all could do. Community engagement, education, transparency can always be improved and are great marketing angles. But in the future we need the basics to be covered imho

I'm not sure if anyone really can disagree with that. There are technical skills/experiences that are needed bc you can set a company/dao back years if you don't do some of the basic things correctly. I can tell you some horror stories if you would like.

[rustic schooner]

I don't disagree with you, I'm just not understanding why you think the marketing sub-council needs to come in and replace the DAO's existing/qualified marketing staff. Everything you mentioned above re: qualifications is stuff you would require for an actual marketing team.

Like those are questions I'd ask an interviewing CMO, that isn't what we're here for.

[desert girder]

That's pretty much what I was going to say as well. You practically took the words out of my mouth.

[fresh kiln]

Vetemor is the most cringe person in this community hands down. That reply to Kieran? What lol

Twitter

[tender bough]

Good thing that Illuvium has a marketing team that is responsible for everything.

It's almost crazy that no council so far haven't f up and set the DAO years back. They all had the same amount if not more marketing influence than next Marketing Sub-Council will have and I don't think they had much experience as well.

[fresh kiln]

Anyone who has been here for a good amount of time knows this is another Marketing ploy within the the DAO to further demonstrate how the DAO ultimately makes the right decision.

[polar kernel]

From the tweet: " This IIP would recommend dissolving the marketing sub-council and delegating marketing responsibilities to the core team while ensuring close collaboration and alignment with the (IMC)"

The marketing responsibilities should stay with the illuvium labs like it has always been. The marketing sub-council is a leading/guiding force not a working force.

[rustic schooner]

For what it's worth I think our current Epoch 7 council has been pretty good, but we've had some real duds in the past imo lol.

[half arrow]

the council has set us back already - we could have 7 more million in the dao if they were more experience with crypto market cycles - no hard feelings but that is true

[fresh kiln]

This is all on purpose to trigger people so that the DAO shows it’s strengths and further demonstrates that we are a DAO

[tender bough]

I don't think that Marketing Sub-Council will now have 10x more influence in decisions about Marketing than past Councils had. There were no Marketing experts there as well.

[fresh kiln]

This was never meant to be actually passed in the middle of an election process

[rustic schooner]

I was actually lowkey thinking that this could all just be a big play to demonstrate that Illuvium's governance works even when the CEO does something wild lol.

[fresh kiln]

Not the first or the last time Kieran has done this

[rustic schooner]

Sounds stressful for a marketing sub-council to deal with lmao

[warm shore]

what is even the point of continuing this discussion? This won't pass, and we should just all be proud of our own experiences. Guys don't let anyone tell you if you're worth running or not! Not even Kieran! Have a nice evening everyone

[rustic schooner]

Cheers

[tender bough]

In the end, we have the IMC for a reason and their decision is final. I really don't get where all of this is coming from. Marketing Sub-Council is not Marketing department with 5 experts with 10+ years of experience in Web3 marketing.

We all know Kieran was hoping for it, I'm hoping for it, everyone is hoping for it. But atm there are no such candidates I guess.

[fresh kiln]

Well there have been good discussions that ironed out how minimum requirements should be added to Gov V2

It’s not to waste by any means

[half arrow]

I agree with this - I'm saying maybe one of the things the marketing council does if find a way to get more experience people to fill all dao roles. That could be a great objective in general.

But if we are saying, you know what, it's fine no one on the marketing sub-council has relevant marketing experience and that's a great status quo forever. Than ya sorry but we disagree strongly.

We should have a standing goal to improve the quality of the candidates.

[tender bough]

In my opinion that's BS.

Where will people before when we were talking about it during drafting Gov V2 docs.

We are only having that discussion how because it's election and more people care about Governance....

[warm shore]

Yeah i've been having discussions here and there on how to educate people a bit more about governance and just in a general way how to make the infos regarding governance more easily accessible to people.

I think the Marketing Sub-Council can definitely help setting some tools up and provide ideas on this topic so that the DAO can do even more educated choices than it has been in the past.

[fresh kiln]

I mean that’s hindsight at this point and the governance is a living document. It will always be changing and improving overtime.

[half arrow]

there should always be someone who is focused on that kind of stuff and a priority right now. Honestly, we just have everyone competing for what will be probably 1 seat in the future - the more 'from the community/not technical' role. No big deal, but Kieran is not wrong that we need this to improve.

I've been asking for a community run dashboard for all on chain stuff - think it would serve well as a marketing tool.

[tame badger]

👏

[rustic schooner]

I think you’re hitting some important points but i still disagree with others. Either way, I hope you’ll consider running in Epoch 9.

[desert girder]

You are basically right. But that's like politics. You hope that the best people for the job will be elected, only to find that they don't stand for election and you have to make do with those who did. That doesn't necessarily mean that those people aren't capable of doing a good job. But what Kieran would like can't be achieved that way. You have to find and hire specific people to do that, you can't just elect them, at least not that way.

[half arrow]

I'm sure I'm wrong to a significant degree about some/a lot of what I said - you'll get on so looking forward to your ideas and what you do! I gave you a good amount of my vote

[daring wraith]

I'm quite surprised this came up with the Marketing council, would have expect it more in like strategy council. Marketing these days isn't like you need tons of experience in comparison to other subjects. Also the impact of wrong or right decisions is way smaller than in other subjects, as for example strategy.
What am i missing? Why the fear appesrs especially in marketing?

[fresh kiln]

I appreciate your level headedness in this conversation and logical responses rather than emotion based. I voted for you for marketing council and I hope others do too. 🤝 Gl to everyone in the elections. Power to the DAO 🫡

[polar kernel]

thought experiment:
8 people run.
4 are extremely qualified no community engagement.
4 are extremely unqualified and have community engagement.
Kieran is happy we have qualified people running.
All four unqualified community engaged people win.
What do we do with the sub-council then?

[digital steppe]

I agree with @coral quest carry on as we are and if people cannot perform the role they are elected then a vote of no confidence can be made. Additional changes to the governance structure can be made for the next elections if needed.

[warm shore]

I think what you miss there is that Marketing is in fact a sub-council that comes with Risk involved. Marketing is not an expense, it's an investment.
And just like any investment, it can make you go up or you can lose your money.

And just like in finance/trading etc. Some metrics and experience help you guide your decisions to make sure that in the long run you win more money than you lose.

But i agree that Strategy is also another council that comes with risk and if we put higher requirements for Marketing sub-council i would also suggest that we do so for strategy.

[mystic marsh]

You can have the best product in the world and if the marketing is not done correctly it will (usually) fail. Illuvium is a start up not a well established company so it is important to get the perception right from the very beginning. However, even for well-established companies one marketing decision can have major consequences. Heard of Bud Light?

[daring wraith]

Probably. But Marketing, especially in the Market we are (gaming) is pretty basic in how and where you Market it. The only question is when and what you put in the Pipeline. If you have errors in strategy, you will never get to the point to Market anything, and you have a Lot of more sources to fail.

[marsh mulch]

I am a recruiter in the tech industry in Silicon Valley. For something like marketing, it's extremely important to have someone who's got a background and experience in Marketing to be successful. There should be some kind of vetting system as well bc anyone can say anything without backing it up. I agree with Kieran here 100%

[tender bough]

Would be cool if Kieran tweeted about Gov V2 before maybe we would have more people giving feedback on the doc then when we were forming it. (and not only 5 people apart from council giving feedback....)

[warm shore]

I agree. Is not a Marketing expert who just pretends to be one... That's a common problem i encounter kinda often in my job when startups come at me after just giving that responsibility to someone in their circle that's "good with social media"... But considering these are public elections and the risks associated with doxing, what is your opinion on asking in the future like... the linkedin link of the nominees?

Would that help people feel more reassured? Will the qualified people that we actually want to run show up?

[marsh mulch]

If these people are going to be doxxed, then perhaps I'd like to see their updated LInkedin profile. That's something to look at or a resume.

[mystic marsh]

It's not that simple though because of what kind of games Illuvium is building. We have to bring web2 gamers into web3. It requires not just promoting a great product but also trust building. I'm not saying strategy isn't important but too many people view marketing as easy or expendable and it is neither. 🙂

[polar kernel]

doxxed to illuvium labs is all that is required in gov v2

[daring wraith]

Not in this Stage of developement i guess.
As Long as we are in private Beta, you just get experienced people if you are lucky.
The people who work for years in that Business, most likely won't put their reputation in the risk.

[daring wraith]

But how exactly it is done is the job of the cc not the council, right. Council ist more of a direction Tool and the connection to the ilv stakers / community

[tender bough]

Can we all just stop for a minute and think about all of this.

Marketing Sub-Council will literally have zero impact in any of the decisions. IMC has the final word and has to improve everything. Sub-Councils are here to help, not control multi million deals and partnerships.

[warm shore]

and only for the elected people. But another idea to experiment could be that WITHIN the nomination form, you include your resume/Linkedin but that can only be reviewed by people in IlluviumLabs, and all the underqualified profiles actually just can't run.

My fear with this system would be:

1. How do we ensure a fair review process
2. What happens if less than 4 people make the cut
   ?

[daring wraith]

Totally

[polar kernel]

The council needs to take on governance matters in the largest extent possible IMO. I like pre-vetting and perhaps the council could pre-vet the nominees in the future. By pre-vet I mean: your stated experience matches your resume/linkedin

[coral quest]

Labs can't decide who is qualified in a decentralized model. Gov V2 wording is clear, it should be the GCM (the GCM should be a role within the DAO). GCM also wouldn't be deciding who is qualified, they'd just be confirming people qualifications, and reporting any discrepancies.

[rustic schooner]

I tried to link my LInkedIn for ya Dragon but Mozart said fuk outta here

[warm shore]

I was actually wandering if it was your LinkedIn xD

[marsh mulch]

you can just put your username

[rustic schooner]

Missionpoole everywhere

[marsh mulch]

cool.

[rustic schooner]

I’m not overly active but please by my guest, i think that’s good practice and I’m doxxed anyways lol

[mystic marsh]

Maybe I am not understanding the role of sub-council. Isn't it supposed to be bringing forward marketing strategies, doing market research etc? Community sub-council is the one to go to community.

[tender bough]

But it's not like you can't write anything on linkedin after all. Not sure how is that confirming anything. (not talking about you JP, i'm talking in general)

[warm shore]

Thank you for clarifying! and so what's your opinion on that? Is that something you think should be implemented?

[coral quest]

It's in Gov V2 - The DAO should look to employ a GCM in a coming epoch

Lord knows Rich has had enough governance for one lifetime lol

[daring wraith]

Idk maybe i am wrong. To me these are clearly tasks of a cc

[warm shore]

yeah but i mean doing that process before the nominations go public rather than after people get elected

[rustic schooner]

[coral quest]

It's awkward, if we care at all about people's relative anonymity, there would have to be a mutual NDA filled prior to running. That's a barrier to entry too. It's probably the right way to approach it though.

We can go full doxx if that's what the DAO desires, but I'd personally step out at that point. Happy to do so if the DAO felt public doxxing was enough of a value add overall, and wouldn't be upset about it.

[rustic schooner]

Just for my own curiosity, and kind of off-topic, what’s the motivation for not being socially doxxed? I can understand not wanting to doxx your wallets and stuff but I’ve never really understood the need to be socially anonymous unless you have something to hide of malicious intent (definitely not the case with blickter but is often my experience lol)

[warm shore]

I personnally wouldn't be too keen either. Also, the actual responsibility from a single sub-council member might not justify such an extreme measure

[rustic schooner]

The fact people care so much about anonymity makes me feel like I’m missing something and screwing myself over lmao

[mystic marsh]

Hmmm...I saw it as the sub-council is supposed to be knowledgeable enough to do the work to take some pressure off the team who would make the final decisions.

Maybe that's part of the problem here, maybe we need to have more clearly define job expectations?

Anyhow, I have to get some of my own work done. Have a good one.

[coral quest]

$5 wrench attacks, IRL political ambition or other conflicts with workplaces that might be unfriendly to a public history of interacting with anything crypto related, legal concerns in certain jurisdictions. Lots of potential reasons to not have all your information out there.

[warm shore]

In my case it's pretty easy, I am a bit paranoid and want to keep my family safe. So I'd like as fewer people as possible into crypto to know my real name and adress.

[polar kernel]

One reason is regulations and legal. If the DAO gets sued easy to go after Doxxed council members.

[rustic schooner]

All fair points.

[daring wraith]

Taxes probably for the most. If not doxxed it's $ you earn nobody knows about. 😂

[deft cliff]

After reading all comments and having a conversations on voice chat about this, I have to say that even if it is a valid concern for @eager plover that the pool of talent is not to his liking, the timing, outlet and delivery of his message was not adequate. Everyone agrees that the optimal result is to have the most capable people in the sub-councils. I have to stress again that our DAO is based on a democratically elected model that does not disqualifies anyone and that the power and responsibilities rely on the voters, we are trying to solve something that NO democracy has. We then need to come up with another model (maybe more centralized) that satisfies the majority, but as Gov V2 passed 5-0 I assumed that democratic elected representatives were what we all wanted......Anyways........ Out of the top of my head the team can find and vet candidates and let the stakers vote for the ones they like the most although this does not feel very DAOish.

We have not even stress tested it yet but I'm personally optimistic that the risk of sub-standard council members affecting the main marketing strategies won't be very impactful and we can adjust accordingly in a constructive and well thought way to encourage people meet our “standards”

[whole schooner]

A council position isn’t worth the time for the impact amongst this cohort

Async in DMs has better ROI with less schedule commits

[obsidian bear]

I have always had this thought aswell. But I have seen people bring up that being in crypto or things like this could be potentially detrimental to their real life job or other this like that.

[summer swallow]

I cant say I agree here. 4 experts with marketing degrees doesn't form an effective dao. It creates an echo chamber and would be a serious problem in my opinion. I have worked in several marketing teams and more often than not the leadership role is the only one that has someone with a marketing degree. They are often filled with people that have sales degrees, design degrees and anything inbetween.

Given Illuvium Labs already has these experts in marketing I'd say it's more important the marketing sub council has a diversity of opinions.

I don't know any team in any industry where every member has the same degree and experience.

[rustic schooner]

Well. I at least don't have that problem lol.

[summer swallow]

Even if we were to target gov V2 to purely experts I cant see how this works. Not before the game launches at least.

4 experts in marketing don't exist in this community. And don't exist for $1500/m. As the community grows this can definitely change but at the moment it's not feasible

[obsidian bear]

Same with me I never understood why people want to be anon. But kinda makes sense.

[rustic schooner]

I mean to be fair, id very much like to not be mugged with a wrench. So blickter's point really resonated for me lmao.

Thankfully here in America I stay with my guns

[vague grove]

https://tenor.com/view/impress-based-american-psycho-very-based-impressive-very-based-gif-21665669

[warm peak]

More gun ratio in switzerland. be carefull

[warm shore]

4 people with the same degree but then different experiences don't create an echo-chamber, it would create a healthy environment with highly qualified people bringing different povs.

But you're right about the rest, usually in marketing teams the only person with that sort of degree occupies a leadership role and the rest of the team is filled with less qualified executants. (social media manager, product manager, graphic designers etc)

I also believe that Marketing is not an exact science. Sometimes very qualified and experienced people fail where a 16yo kid succeeds and like in every topic: good ideas can come from ANYWHERE.

Which is why imo this Sub-Council will be so important, hopefully leveraging the community's ideas and use their own expertise to polish it before they suggest it to the team.

[warm shore]

yep here pretty much every man who did the army (obligatory here) has the right to keep his assault riffle at home.

[summer swallow]

Fair point on the echo chamber but yeah I agree

[viscid valve]

The marketing team can make the proposals and the marketing council, at the very least, serves as a real-world sounding board.

[winged wolf]

Well this is spicy. Having a DAO that has drastically been expanded upon the depth of talent can become light on. A risk of this concept is less control, as a leader this is uncomfortable. But v2 has been passed and should be left to play out. If candidates are actually unqualified this needs to be vetted before final onboarding and contracts are signed, then communicated to the voting community. There are very valid candidates and others who have applied like this is McDonald's. Hopefully the community vote appropriately. Shooting from the hip on Twitter was probably not wise as it compromises the installed process integrity. See it out this epoch and have the DAO vote again on how v2 implementation could be improved.

[viscid valve]

If there’s nothing for the marketing Council to do anyways, they’re not gonna be meeting as often and they’re not gonna feel super upset if IMC proposes that their is stipend is reduced or cut. But really the stipend is not the issue.

[shrewd parrot]

Hey everyone, great conversations and input going on from everyone. I can't really speak to who is and who isn't qualified, as like others it seemed qualifications were expected yet not necessary. As I ran for community sub-council I never looked at the requirements for others. I voted for the person I thought had the most experience as I felt it would be needed to help people ideate and vet the proposals.
What I'm getting from this whole situation is a positive direction forward. It is clear to me that the responsibilities and requirements for sub-councils need to be further defined.
I completely appreciate the frustration and disappointment felt by those who have applied and the confusion this brings to what a DAO is.
However I feel this brings us closer to this definition and through conversations like this and likely the conversation when the proposal is launched can only enhance the community and the DAO structure and the process of communication between us all.
DAO are living and breathing entities. We are growing and evolving.
Regardless of the timing I am glad this has happened to further define the parameters and hopefully come up with a solution that's best for everyone.
Much love everyone. Thanks @willow dirge for setting this up.

[shrewd parrot]

Agreed having been on a committee before and being legally liable is an intense task. We were covered with the organisation's insurance though if the worst case scenario happened. However your reputation is still at stake.

[tawny verge]

Was it really necessary to throw it out on Twitter in such a wording? You could have explained the whole thing more simply what worries you and why you might want to have a change. The tweets have no real context and such sentences as "forming a committee of inexperienced marketers" already make me feel kinda insulted.

I honestly don't understand the point behind the DAO in marketing then? We have very little information and everyone could only answer the questions in 90 seconds. How can you publicly portray the candidates like that, as if Illuvium would suffer a huge damage because of them? I think it is in everyone's interest to work hand in hand with the core team? What kind of decisions would the council have to make to send out tweets like this?

I think there are far less experienced candidates on the other councils. We're also talking about a $1,500 "job" here. What I'm reading just makes me shake my head.... Isn't it enough that people with a lot of experience take their time and of course want to contribute something out of conviction?

So I have told my community that I run for the marketing council to end up being labeled by the CEO as a group of inexperienced marketers who could harm the project and there shouldnt be this position in the council?

Sorry... but the message really speaks to everyone and not just individual candidates... I am self-employed in online marketing / e-commerce since 2016 and am 100% sure that I bring enough what will help the team.

I am a bit disappointed tbh. This isnt fair for anyone who runs for the marketing sub council.

[cinder oak]

well said sandro

[cinder oak]

@vague grove isn't a Council Member... wdym you told rich
Take some responsibility!

I remember there were requirements for each role built into Gov V2 back in the day.

I also recall them being removed in the spirit of decentralization and that restricting qualifications was an unnecessary barrier, hence being rewritten as recommended qualifications.

This was months of work while YOU were on the council.

Yes, you're important and doing other important things, but it shows how little emphasis you put on the council role during the time Gov v2 was created.

And then to voice your feelings of lacking candidates 2 days away from the end of voting (not just after nominations ended) and on Twitter no less is not only unprofessional but also disrespectful to the candidates that ran

(not to mention that the new council pay doesn't really incentivise heads of marketing with high powered careers to run because the stipend wouldn't be worth their time!)

(anyone running right now is doing so because they care about this community and project more than any other reason, maybe lets not publicly shit on some of our most passionate community members!)

Thats my 2 cents...

[wind heron]

[half arrow]

I don't believe Kieran's point is about credentialism. No one is saying you need to have gone to Harvard or anything like that, if so I disagree.

But a proven track record of success in marketing with a valuable skill set, is important. We aren't going to let someone make decisions just because they hang out in discord and generate lots of ideas and have tons of passion.

We do need a diversity of experience/successes. web3/2, paid, organic, paid, branding, technical, gaming, and I'm sure more in a perfect world. A lot of this is foundational/technical work, that if done properly will set the dao up for success for the long term - such as setting up the system/dao with the idea of developing internal talent/ideas from people in the dao.

I agree Kieran could have done better from a PR perspective with this though - was definitely abrasive, but the point stands.

We want really talented people who can make good decisions based on experience - I don't think that's too high of a bar to clear.

[cinder oak]

"But a proven track record of success in marketing with a valuable skill set, is important." - I believe more than 4 people presented proven track records of success

all elected will sign NDAs and will doxx to the team and their track record can be investigated and verified (and if anyone was lying they will be removed and replaced)

[warm shore]

And will be by a GCM in gov v2

[wind heron]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-fired-donald-trump-the-apprentice-point-gif-8557097

Love watching this test. Marketing candidates: Market yourselves. Would make a great reality Tv show.

[vague grove]

I’ll just say, IMO most, if not all, governments around today have not figured how to properly run these types of things and they’ve had years of attempts. This is our next attempt at a robust governance system that Will absolutely flaws. I don’t know if this is the best system put forward and I’m sure changes will come.

[cinder oak]

well said ser

[half arrow]

Okay - I'll clarify. They need to have correct set of skills needed not just any marketing skill. The qualified ppl (I'm not trying to point out which ones exactly) all have basically the same experience and less of them would have any overlapping experience with the first 5-10 marketing hires at an experienced team for a web3 gaming project.

Vet I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how you're an expert on so many topics. I've built 3 marketing teams at start-ups and had one successful exit and traded/invested in crypto profitability for 6 years. I've see what happens when you fuck up marketing early by not having the right technical people involved - it can be a years long issue and sometimes the tech/strategy debt just lingers forever. It's a great way to lose talented people bc it's a nightmare to work in a that type of environment.

Again, I agree with Rich, I don't think this is end of times. The people that get elected will do a great job - I'm sure they will focus on the areas where they are most experienced. I would like to see more key competencies covered in the future and not sure why that's offensive to some.

Based on my experience, I'm not seeing what I would call the most important/foundational skill sets represented. I mean I didn't hear anyone talk about experience managing a marketing tech stack or even a large website from a technical perpective.

[wind heron]

https://tenor.com/view/true-gif-21006811

Very true.

[halcyon smelt]

Damn @signal mortar … reconsider man …

We must have you on the marketing team.

[deft cliff]

What is in your opinion is the reason we can't attract the talent you want in this sub-council and what will you do to incentivise your desired nominees to run?

[warm shore]

Could Djsamwithers' tweet be a hint? just asking

[cinder oak]

Strongly Agree

[swift skiff]

Agreed, huge shame to lose @signal mortar as a nominee.

[valid spruce]

😦

[shrewd parrot]

Yes 🙌🏼

[proud bronze]

I hope Kieran reaches out to him and fixes this

[shrewd parrot]

Agreed

[half arrow]

I don't think we did much to let anyone know, so far. The experience (web3 experience at the top gaming project) plus the pay will be enough to get good people. But we need to find them and let them know. I just got Amanda Cassatt's (prob the most experienced web3 marketer) marketing book and looks like she has a dao/token gated community for marketing ppl in web3, so places like that could be good options to find ppl. Also, marketing at projects we think have done well.

[warm shore]

it's not about "fixing things" at this point. We've all been disrespected in this story and GG to Sam for really putting some light on it

[deft cliff]

This is very disenhartening, just read his tweet 😔

[viscid valve]

[deft cliff]

Ok, so more pay for the council (this has never been a controversial topic) and bring more eyes and light to our election process to attract talent (because we have never tried this). Sorry, my friend. I know your comments come from a good place but these solutions kind of have been tried and it feels that you want to steer towards centralization that conflicts with what I like and understand of what a DAO should be

[eager plover]

First and foremost, I apologise to anyone I may have offended with my previous comments. My intentions remain the same, regardless of the platform on which they were expressed. The primary purpose of Governance v2 was to identify and integrate experts from our community into the team in an official capacity.

Having served on the council for nearly two years, I have witnessed substantial growth and improvement, especially during this last epoch. My goal is to avoid situations where individuals with large followings but lacking expertise get voted in. Perhaps I was overly optimistic in expecting numerous CMO-level candidates from large-scale companies to emerge.

My high expectations were driven by the desire to fill gaps in our marketing team, particularly since I am currently the CMO. I would be thrilled to have multiple C-suite level marketers join and guide me towards making better marketing decisions. I have nothing against the nominees; I recognise that they are passionate Illuvium supporters with the DAO's best interests at heart. I believe this passion makes it even more important for them to seek the addition of highly skilled individuals to our team.

My focus was not on the compensation for the position, but rather on ensuring that our large-scale investments are future-proofed through the integration of new insights, techniques, and analysis. While I have a decade of experience in marketing and various traditional businesses, I lack specific expertise in mainstream gaming marketing. I believe our community would greatly benefit from such talent if they were willing to contribute.

My primary concern is achieving results, and my ultimate goal is to make this the most prominent gaming studio on the planet. I apologise if my comments disheartened the marketing candidates, but I wanted to clarify my initial intentions behind proposing Gov V2. If I didn't think it was necessary, I would have suggested continuing with our current format and hiring talent internally when the budget allowed. That's all I wanted to convey

[timber ginkgo]

With all due respect I hope you have reached out to Sam and asked him not to withdraw. In my opinion the election should not be influenced this late in the campaign. If the council structure needs to be changed or the candidates that are voted in fall short of expectations then address those issues as they arise.

[shrewd parrot]

I think that would be harder to do. Issues that arise may cause significant delays. Or proposals get through. I see this as an extra-ordinary event. I believe the decision wouldn't be taken unless necessary.
Perhaps we find middle ground and pause the vote. However what Kieran is suggesting, allows the other councils to proceed and leave the responsibility of marketing to the team. Then a process can happen to clarify the responsibilities and skill set required for the marketing sub-council next epoch. Seeking and reaching out to those members can have time occur.
Assuming it gets through.

[timber ginkgo]

If we are truly a DAO then the training wheels have to come off at some point.

[shrewd parrot]

I see DOAs differently. I believe it's all inline with it. Anyone could have done it. I believe in this space DAOs are what all members agree to it being. That leaves it able to fluctuate and move and evolve.

[timber ginkgo]

How do we encourage more people to be engaged in governance and to nominate themselves for council positions if the whole process can be undermined by a tweet late in the campaign by a founder. I understand what his reservation are and I respect him, but this imho was not a good way to handle his concerns. If I were a candidate for any of the sub councils I would be very discouraged by this. Furthermore people who do have the relevant experience may be discouraged from running in the future.

[shrewd parrot]

How is it undermined though?

[timber ginkgo]

Sam has withdrawn

[shrewd parrot]

Isn't that his right?

[timber ginkgo]

Of course it is.

[shrewd parrot]

He could also have stayed, many others did. I wish he hadn't.

[limber radish]

I think adding an option to be able to vote for "No suitable candidate" could be an option. Would be the same as a normal recruitment process, except here we forfeit the marketing sub-council to the team this epoch and we have another vote next epoch for more candidates.

[polar kernel]

what if "no suitable candidate" gets third place?

[limber radish]

2 candidates it is then haha

[real wolf]

I’m really not sure what people were expecting for the candidates for the marketing sub council. Did anybody really expect 5 highly talented marketing executives to hop on and offer to run illuvium’s marketing for very little pay?

The marketing should be done by a professional marketing team. The council can be useful to bring ideas to the table but most importantly should be ensuring that our marketing is tailored to our target audiences and aligns with the values of the DAO.

I never understood why the DAO contracted Illuvium labs (a game design studio) for marketing in the first place. I feel like we would probably get a lot more mileage out of hiring out our marketing campaigns to an independent marketing agency with experience marketing games and let Labs focus on the game.

[cinder oak]

interesting take there ser, not an awful idea tbh

[eager plover]

To be genuinely honest, I did think we would have multiple candidates with experience like that. Particularly investors of ILV that do Web3 as a hobby. It's a few hours of their time and fun new experience and a way for them to solidify their investment

[last garnet]

What concerns me most as a DAO member:

Once I casted my vote for a candidate of any sub council, I have delegated my ILV voting rights for the complete epoch to community members I might not even have voted for.

One of the 4 or 5 sub-council members will then sit on the IMC:
Again, I have not control over who this is.

Even more concerning:
In the IMC only 1 Team Admin and 4 sub-council leads have equal voting rights.

When I started to invest into Illuvium, I mainly looked at the founders, the team and then at the community.

I liked all of them, but most important for me were the founders.

I personally believe in decentralization, but IMO it is way too early to give the DAO so much voting rights and then also concentrate it into a few people from the community, about whom I don't know much about.

If the sub-councils wouldn't have so much voting power, I could sleep much better. Discussing, Ideating, Reviewing IIPs/ICCPs is all good, but don't take away my voting rights or the team's ability to make decisions so early on in the project.

I strongly believe, that if these candidates wouldn't be able get so much power, we all wouldn't be so concerned about their credentials or skills.

[cinder oak]

then we wouldn't be a DAO... and we'd lose the tax benefits that come with that status

Illuvium Labs is a Gaming Studio that works for the DAO, thats what we all signed up for from the get go

[last garnet]

We would still be a DAO if e.g. all DAO members could vote on all IIP/ICCPs, instead of just council members.

[cinder oak]

we'd also be in trouble

[last garnet]

Why?

[sharp fox]

I see on twitter we now have marketing nominees dropping out. I can't blame them. How are you supposed to collaborate and work with kieran after this shit show.

I haven't voted yet, probably not going to bother now either. What's the point 🤷‍♂️

[cinder oak]

we cant expect all of the voters to have the time to research every topic, fully discuss the implications etcetera, thats a huge time commitment which is why we have representational governance, otherwise most would rarely vote and a small number of whales would control the entire DAO lol

Its just a worse system, which is why we have representational governance

[last garnet]

There are many voting systems:

We could e.g. allow for the delegation of votes to a candidate of your choosing or you can vote directly.

Then it is up to the individual members, if they want to spend time researching all IIP/ICCPs or research the candidates for delegation.

ENS and many other DAOs use such a voting system.

A representational system is something for huge DAOs with lots of members and lots of IIP/ICCPs etc.

In regards to whales:

There are ways to mitigate this. But I would argue that someone who has invested a lot should also have more voting rights. Doesn't have to be linear, though.

[real wolf]

Mid election seems a bit late to be rewriting the governance system though doesn't it?

[cinder oak]

I would agree

[last garnet]

Should have been done earlier, but my concerns are still valid.

[cinder oak]

maybe worth discussing when governance v2 was being debated

[last garnet]

Elections have been canceled before, even in real world countries. Let's first discuss the right voting system, before discussing the cancellation.

[real wolf]

Well im sure there will be new IIPs about governance in the coming epoch. Probably will be a hot topic of discussion following the election results.

[last garnet]

Yes

[tawny verge]

Would it be possible to drop some names and add some context to your concerns? Like what is exactly the problem? In my opinion there where at least 5 people with marketing experience and would fit in the sub council without a problem.

[valid spruce]

I know I've already talked to council nominees that still want to change and improve the governance system after the elections

[last garnet]

I am not talking about specific people, I am talking about the system in general.

[real wolf]

If you want to start a discussion about totally overhauling the voting system it would probably be more appropriate to do that in a new #1020759212172775464 topic.

This thread already has a topic and its not what you are talking about.

[last garnet]

No, here is the right place.

[real wolf]

no. its not

[last garnet]

It is.

[tawny verge]

I would love to hear some more details from Kieran and everyone who is complaining about the candidates.

[real wolf]

I think there was just a mismatch of what people expected out of the marketing candidates. I expected even less qualified nominees actually 🤣

[valid spruce]

Yup. Just a complete miscalculation with his expectations

[tawny verge]

Yes so sad that head of marketing from blizzard has not applied for council..

[real wolf]

Yeah it still needs work. I think a more clear layout of exactly what is the rights/responsibilities of the council members and DAO should be a priority for this epoch.

Really right now theres no clear definition of what the DAO actually controls vs the team.
In effect the team seems to control basically everything.

[timber ginkgo]

It sounds like some people he hoped would nominate themselves didn’t.

[tawny verge]

Seeing Sam leave makes me mad. I don’t know this guy but look at the views on his tweet.. he was posting for WEEKS without recieving anything and shared his tipps Illuvium could do better at Twitter for example.

[valid spruce]

I think having a diverse range of council members is what is needed especially for marketing. From traditional Web2 marketing - Web3 - Influencer - etc

You want to cast a wide net in that category with multiple strategies that work

[tawny verge]

Yes I agree with this and that’s why I don’t understand the tweet at all.

[real wolf]

Well according to the process for putting forward an IIP (assuming Kieran has to follow the process like everybody else) then this idea doesn't even have enough upvotes to be moved into the governance forum for official discussion. So its probably a moot point.

[zealous ether]

as usual there is something wrong.

@eager plover if you want some highly skilled people who also work for free, first ask them if they would, second you have enough ILV to vote 2 councilors in that sub council even alone. Nominate and vote for them. And leave two chairs to create a dialogue with the elect of the dao.

second point, reading you it seems that gov2 was not a form of election to decentralize decisions through the community but rather a mystified hiring of employees (the community sub council knows what I'm talking about).

No one is qualified for something that is unprecedented. We are writing web3 history. And getting involved and making yourself available makes 80% of the result of any piece of paper from some fancy school.

speaking of marketing, and not of leadership because despite everything I believe that Kieran and the Warwick brothers will bring Illuvium to posterity, ever thought of making the CEO's twitter pass from a PR? can we do an IIP to review posts on public platforms by relevant personalities on the team?

[timber ginkgo]

Can voters change their votes once they have voted?

[valid spruce]

Yes they can

If you just vote again it will rewrite whatever you have previously done

[timber ginkgo]

Thank you. Just needed to check that

[last garnet]

You are right, there are so many problems with gov 2 that we should see it as an event that furthers the discussion, rather than a final implementation.

I should have spent more time, while it was being discussed. My fault.

But now it does, what I hate most about real world governments:
It creates politicians (candidates) with insane power and voters, who have no more say once they voted.

Just horrible and so bad, that I almost considered dropping my investment. But I still have faith.

[naive lichen]

Would love to explore this more. From what im reading, your issues are the following:

1. No community control who sits on IMC
2. Admin has 1 vote in IMC (Founder-led is whats important)
3. Sub-councils having too much voting power

1. No community control who sits on IMC

Though this is true, technically, community already voted for the council members and with it the trust and faith to decide who would represent the sub-council. So by extension, theyre still community-voted.

2. Admin has 1 vote in IMC (Founder-led is whats important)

This has been the setup past 2 years. If Kieran wasnt actively running there wouldnt be an admin on the previous councils. With Gov v2, this makes it guaranteed. However, even if the IMC votes on IIPs and ICCPs, the day-to-day operations is still outsourced to the Labs. DAO governance just allowed an oversight function to what the Team does on a high level and not granular.

3. Sub-councils having too much voting power

Technically, its the IMC who has voting power similar to the council setup before Gov v2. Sub-councils only ideate and revise the IIPs that go through them.

Id like to think one of the underlaying core concepts of Gov v2 is to allow better transparency, communication, and discourse bridging the DAO and Labs.

to add, one of the major hurdles this epoch will have is to identify the gaps and issues of Gov v2 in practice and address it for future epoch

[last garnet]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response.

1. Yes, 4 IMC members are voted in by the community, but it is representational and not a form of direct voting of DAO members. It creates politicians, what I hate.

2. 3. I have the same problem with the past 2 years setup. I don't understand why we need a council to make the decisions.

I understand the need for a council to discuss, but not for voting.

Why aren't IIP/ICCPs voted on by all DAO members (with the ability to delegate my votes). Why create this hierarchy monster of representational governance in the first place?

I am not against this hierarchy of councils in general, just that voting rights go along with it.

[tender bough]

Council members that are voting have much more information than the DAO members and holders/stakers. Are we going to share all confidential information with all the stakers or are stakers voting without enough information?

[naive lichen]

For #1 that is an absolute fair point.

Regarding voting by the DAO, I agree this is absolutely ideal but the frequency of IIPs will put a toll on the community. We would need to establish a threshold of voters or vILV casted. Another issue that might pop up if you have thresholds in place is those entities with massive amounts of voting power just sway the vote every single time.

And as @tender bough mentioned, theres a lot of confidential information that will be shared. The expectation with sub-councils is that they become privy to these information and are able to revise and ideate the IIPs. Without that information, wed have half-baked IIPs that doesnt address the nuances.

[last garnet]

That's a good point.

But this is exactly the reason, why I am not against a hierarchy of councils to create, ideate and revise IIP/ICCPs.

It is just the voting part, that I would decentralize to all DAO members. That's what concerns me: We centralize the voting with our governance system! This is more akin to a large country than a DAO.

IMO the DAO members should vote on proposals refined by the council and these proposals could be cleansed of all confidential information before.

[last garnet]

There are voting systems that help with your concerns. We can discuss it later, but I don't see it as a major problem.

[naive lichen]

Would love to hear more about it in the future.

[last garnet]

Here e.g. is a delegation strategy: snapshot.org/#/strategy/delegation

[daring wraith]

Sounds a little like the Swiss governance system

[last garnet]

But that wouldn't be bad, or would it?

[daring wraith]

It has advantages as well as disadvantages.
Probably not the right chanel to discuss it in the deep.

[last garnet]

The reason why I bring it up here is this: I believe strongly that some are so concerned about some candidates, because they will gain enormous voting power with gov 2, power taken away from DAO members.

[daring wraith]

I totally see your concerns.
But is it good or bad?
Some could argue that it is not good if the broad mass of the DAO members with

a lack of internal knowledge
a lack of knowledge at all of the area the subject is getting voted is in
and maybe even lack of knowledge of the actual subject itself because to lazy to inform

Should have the last say. Like i See s Lot of people voting on something they have no clue about and can't see the effects it has in the future to the System, just for the sake of voting or because they thought they know how it impacts the System but were totally wrong.

[fickle kestrel]

In my view It may have been a better way to have expressed it, and said something like… “I am disappointed we did not see more highly qualified people run for the marketing council, it could potentially become a problem if we are not able to attract the talent we need for the council to provide the value we need”….. I think most can relate to the sentiment of the concerns, and it did sparked some good discussions. But as also expressed by others, I think the way it was communicated, it can be perceived as a disrespect to those who has been running, and in my own view all seems to bring a good mix of different talents, and they all have one important thing in common, which is they have a big passion for the project, and put and effort into running for the council…. I think its important to not loose that message. Especially if the intention is to get people more engaged in the governance and get more candidates to run in the future.

[rustic schooner]

This sums up nicely my opinion re: total gov v2 overhaul being discussed at the moment.

It’s entirely possible that we have to tweak this thing so much that it’s gov v3 for epoch 9. Midway through the election after 4-5 iterations and a unanimous council vote to put into effect simply isn’t the time to do it imo.

I’m sure our governance structure and possible delegation capabilities will be discussed this epoch.

[coral quest]

The overall council has equivalent power to pass proposals as we do in Gov V1. The notable changes are the Emergency Proposal Process, and the ability for the community to remove council members. There are just more specialized groups to address various elements that impact the ecosystem and assist with ideation and recommendations. There is no net loss of power for DAO members. DAO members gain a form of recourse through the Vote of No Confidence mechanism.

If someone is concerned about Gov V2 because they think it "takes away their power" as a DAO member, they aren't familiar with Gov V2 or Gov V1.

[last garnet]

But wouldn't delegation solve some of these problems?

[rustic schooner]

✅

[last garnet]

I don't like how Gov V1 works either. Emergency Proposal and Removal are good, but a representational system with politicians is horrible and so bad that I wonder who came up with it.

[daring wraith]

Idk what you mean by that exactly. As you certainly saw, english is just my 2nd language. I guess you'd have to elaborate a bit more 🙃

[last garnet]

It isn't my first language either, which you probably noticed. 🙂

I can delegate my voting power to another DAO member, but can still vote on specific proposals if I want. ENS DAO, Optimism e.g. uses this.

[coral quest]

Fair, but making changes during voting is not the way to propose changes to the system. I'd ask people to review the council member's thoughts on Gov V2 when we passed it - Many of us pointed out that Gov V2 will need constant iteration and revision. Let's just follow the recommendation.

As for who came up with Gov V2, the names are right on the document. The current council, and some involved community members. We also investigated other DAO structures while creating the framework. I'm not a fan of the political elements around voting season either, I think they detract from other work that could be completed, but maybe we can find a solution for that. I don't think the solution is to nuke the work that's been done, or to go back on what we've agreed to try out.

[last garnet]

Okay, fair. We don't need to nuke it, just fix it and especially not now. But I am glad that I am not alone in hating these politics. That's not what I signed up for in a DAO.

[rustic schooner]

I actually don’t hate the idea of implementing delegation capabilities and/or having tiered IIP/ICCP voting capabilities for council members. I would need to think more about it and brainstorm with others more specifically on that but in general I am not a fan of blind representative democracy etc and prefer a system where informed and interested DAO members have a stronger voice and can delegate out to those they most align with on a particular proposal.

The balance imo will come with keeping that system simple enough to use and making sure that anyone capable of having direct influence over decisions is making educated and informed decisions, as has been pointed out above as a variable.

[last garnet]

I like that.

[daring wraith]

Interesting thought in general.
But keep in mind, just because there is the possibility to do that, doesn't mean all would do it. I actually think most would still use their power and vote what they think it's best. (Just my experience in real life)

[last garnet]

Vitalik has written a few documents about voting on blockchain. I need to dig it up and post it and read it myself. It is a complicated topic, but worth our time.

[rustic schooner]

I also agree with whoever said this isn’t really the time, place, or thread to discuss. I would encourage you to create a separate channel under #1020759212172775464 where we can dig deeper into this ongoing, as it will be a hot topic during epoch 8. This thread were in right now is more so discussion of detailing the current election process, of which I don’t agree with personally. But very happy to continue this discussion in a gov discussion intent on driving positive change prior to epoch 9.

[daring wraith]

Ping me a link somewhere. Sounds Like it's worth a read.

[last garnet]

Cool, will do so. The DAO seems to work. We discuss and find solutions.

[last garnet]

I will post it later in a new idea channel.

[rustic schooner]

Yes, actually really appreciate your passion and willingness to dig into this

And happy to discuss

I’ll keep an eye out but tag me in the new thread for this if you think of it, just wanna make sure I don’t miss.

[warm shore]

Ok everyone,
The consensus is pretty much that the timing, wording and platform used by Kieran where out of place.
The consequences from such a tweet were to be expected and losing a candidate like DjSam really sucks, but imo what this really puts light on is that some of the nominees really felt disrespected as we can also see on some of the reactions above.

While i hear Kieran's concerns, and looking to his expectations it's normal to be disappointed, I empathize with my fellow nominees who felt unfairly attacked.

Now moving forward,
what i'll do (if elected) and encourage the other nominees to do as well, is work twice as hard to make sure that we prove Kieran and all the DAO members that share his concerns with RESULTS how worthy and competent the people who ran for Epoch 8 actually are.

Here are my 2 cents...

[drowsy pawn]

How long until kieran's 'lol I was just testing you guys' follow-up tweet? Reminds me of the su-zhu battle

[drowsy pawn]

I'm sure this has already been addressed but the biggest issue has got to be "the whole premise of Gov V2 was to fill the gaps that the core team lack, and I'm not convinced we’ll do that with the active nominees." -kieran. Doesn't need to be said how 'fill the gaps' is a team issue, and people who fill that role deserve to be paid appropriately. The whole premise is to get the community involved and be a dao, not to con overqualified people into cheap labor.

I can imagine a scenario where some investors say they will run for the dao, the whole V2 thing is a great idea, and then they let Kieran down and don't run. That sucks, but alienating the community can't be worth it.

Reading through this chat I think everyone has come a long way in handling these issues. The personal attacks are brief and seems like we are at an understanding. Hopefully something can be done to get DJ Sam back.

[spice cipher]

I can confirm Kieran drafted the first concept of governance V2 which included sub-council structures. I was the first person to review the gov V2 draft in mid-June before things began in the working group in mid-July. The concept evolved and changed a lot from there with the efforts from people in that working group.

[cedar holly]

Correct me if I’m wrong. The council are just voting on IIPs right? They don’t come up with ideas and give orders to the team.

The fear is that an under qualified council team may vote for or against the wrong IIP.

If this is the case the finance guys should be in charge of setting a marketing budget.

The teams you would hope are level headed and can draw upon the experienced members within the team.

If any whack IIPs come up like a Billboard in times square for half the budget we should all just jump in on the conversation and close it down.

[tender bough]

Only the IMC is voting on IIPs. The Sub-Councils are here to only propose, ideate, revise and recommend marketing related IIPs or ICCPs.

But how many marketing IIPs were there in the past if we're being honest?

[cedar holly]

Ah thanks. Yeah I feel like it’s safe to let the current sub-council remain. Of course Kieran wants the best, it’s a Steve Jobs trait.

Would be hard to find the right talent. Marketing is a different game within each industry.

I’d think the team would be very conservative with marketing spend for the next 6-12 months.

[warm shore]

Considering that Open Beta release is supposed to come in max 7 months from now (according to the most recent RoadMap), I think the time is not about "making savings on Marketing". Doesn't mean throwing the DAO's money out the window of course. But in order to have a succesful launch, investing some money in the right way will be KEY.

[sacred scroll]

marketing can however choose to take back the IIP and decisionmaking if they have the feeling that they would have a more educated opinion on it. If that is true, the IMC needs a majority vote to push the IIP back to the respective sub-council and then that sub-council will vote on it.

Still would require a majority of the IMC to be OK with that though.

[half arrow]

lol I didn't say more pay just said the current pay. Increases only make sense once the dao is profitable or at the very least on track. What have we done to get new people with specific skills into council positions? I'm not aware of any efforts on this front, which isn't surprising bc we just started this

How would recruiting talented people centralize the council/dao? Again, a group of people with diverse but specific/fundamental experiences is what we want

I also never said it was going to be simple and happen all at once, but are you saying there is no point if having a clear goal of wanting highly capable people who have the highest likely hood of benefitting the dao for the long term?

[half arrow]

This is almost never the best course of action. Maybe hire a web3 consultant/agency to provide initial guidance (Serotonin), but we want an inhouse team. Agencies are less effective and more expensive, almost exclusively. Speaking from working with over 10 agencies and working at one myself.

[whole schooner]

99% of “experts” and 100% of agencies are extremely mid at best

[half arrow]

honestly probably one of the most mid things in existence. Honestly, one of the reason I hate being in marketing is there are soooo many bullshitters. It's so easy to sound like you know how to do marketing.

[whole schooner]

For sure - at a high enough level growth comes down to acquisition + engagement efficiency, which is inextricable from product, i.e. baked into the bones and not something you want to outsource

Even if you’re just focusing on top of funnel performance marketing alone, there’s no way to get the unit economics anywhere close to optimal from the outside looking in

[half arrow]

could not have said it better. They are fine for really specific things if you want to ramp up some competency or task, but generally to be avoided.

[warm shore]

can relate 😂
Some people read 2 "growth hack" articles online and pretend to be professionals, I don't think this applies to any of the Marketing Sub-Council candidates though

[obtuse estuary]

Having built a business without any outside funding to $5+ million in annual revenue in less than 5 years, my first order of business on the council would be to ensure all non-internal communications (exception being discord and telegram) coming from the founding members would be reviewed and carefullly constructed prior to posting. This would include your tweets as, from a branding perspective, I see them currently hurting the brand image of Illuvium (Labs) rather than adding to it.

However, I would assume, that you personally would not like this as you are involved with many other projects, but it begs that Illuvium be placed as your number one priority.

This is just one item I'd do as an example.

Could you clarify whether or not the Marketing Sub-Council would be considered individual contributors? Meaning, we'd be the boots on the ground OR would we have a budget to then enlist the help of whomever we deem should be added to a core contributing team?

I see the DAO being a network of groups coming together under a common banner. Illuvium Labs contracted for development while other firms/companies/individuals contracted for other business units.

I think a lot of this still needs to be scoped, but we need to understand your vision (as that is your role) and, frankly, your tweets/communications needs help to ensure clarity is 100% provided from the beginning (it's not a bad thing, it's just a fact based off of community/client reactions).

I'd like to iterate that I feel no motivation to assist even with my $100+k investment in Illuvium with the current structure/compensation being provided. My investment is one thing and I'm sure I'll get it back and then some in the future; however, my time and energy (non-passive investment) is worth far more. The founding team shouldn't be trying to get high-profile/contributing individuals to help "make their investments sound". They should be trying to recruit the best and brightest from within the community through normal compensation packages.

And if you can't, don't be frustrated with the level of talent that you end up attracting. I mean sure, be frustrated, but you reap what you sow.

Hopefully this helps and if the compensation packages start approaching the $150k+ salary range, or there's stock (ILV) packages, AND there is a set marketing budget to work with, let me know; then I could make time to help run/contribute to this project in one way or another.

[half arrow]

I 100% agree

[half arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/being-a-nanny-is-a-thankless-job-ungrateful-job-nanny-the-nanny-sony-gif-16804606

[obtuse estuary]

Hell, I'll be a nanny if the pay is there haha.

A great nanny doesn't just clean up, they teach and nurture the family to be better.

[desert girder]

I can basically relate to what @eager plover is saying. But I think he's on the wrong track. I worked in aesthetic surgery myself for about 15 years. Raised a brand there and made it nationally known. I don't have a margekting background, but I do know human psychology. And marketing for me is selling people dreams. Basically, nothing more than what an aesthetic surgeon does every day. I don't know marketing techniques and I've never been interested in them. That's why I hired people who understood it. I only gave inputs based on my observations and knowledge of human nature.
That is what I would hope for in a marketing sub-council member. It's not the technique that counts here, there are professionals for that. It's the inputs from people who know the needs of the target group and want to make their wishes come true. If we can elect such people to the Marketing Sub-Council, then we will have achieved our goal as a community. Selecting the professionals for the job and building a professional marketing team that can implement the sub-council's inputs is up to the CEO.

[last compass]

Look to me this is simple: the DAO should always be a way to keep community engaged and harness its brain power to HELP the core team do its tasks better. The bigger the size of a project the more you can diversify tasks and spread responsibilities. But ultimately you want to HELP the team who is mainly responsible for the outcome product. They created the idea upon which the project exists, gathered funding and created the opportunity for community to grow. A core team always has much better information of what they need since they have a broad vision and inside knowledge. It’s not so hard to understand what Kieran wants and expects. Probably could have been communicated differently and with different timing. But if he considers the contributions to marketing of the actors he can bring on his own are better and more efficient than the work of the sub-DAO, who am I to doubt him. It doesn’t invalidate the usefulness of the other sub-DAOs and the entire structure. In the end we all want Illuvium to succeed, not just rigidly stick to an inefficient structure unable to evolve or adapt to new challenges.

[coral quest]

I don't understand why anyone thinks it's appropriate to pre-evaluate a sub-council before they've even had a chance to do anything. It would be one thing if we had data indicating that the role wasn't being fulfilled, but it's currently just speculation about what that sub-council could do at this point. I heard some really common sense approaches voiced by some of the nominees that seem to align with Illuvium's ideals, development and financial status, and past marketing strategies.

It's honestly really disheartening that some of the community have made their minds up about Gov V2 before it's even implemented. It's a good framework, we worked hard on it and consulted experts and the community. We have nominees (albeit, one less now) who can absolutely provide value in excess of $1500/month. Why the cold feet now?

[obtuse estuary]

It was in poor taste by Kieran to call out all of the community members who are running for the marketin sub-council as "not qualified". His tact is poor and could have been handled by a more professional communication approach (not blasted via twitter to everyone). DOES NOT make me feel any better about my investment so if he's so worried about trying to attract people who care about their investment with Illuvium, he best figure out how to not send a tweet when his emotions are running high.

[daring wraith]

Absolutely

[spice cipher]

Approving the admin's every tweet and communication... maybe you don't know the Warwicks very well but that ain't happening.

[obtuse estuary]

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1106354691786420224

[twin moth]

Simple

[tardy vault]

Sam is back.
https://twitter.com/djsamwithers/status/1656828376462786560?t=86uvfGIJhdawz3qwN8F3rQ&s=19

djsamwithers (@djsamwithers)

I want to say thank you to everyone who has reached out on my most recent post about the @illuviumio marketing sub-council. Your messages and comments don’t go unnoticed. 🙏

I also want to apologies to anyone who voted for me as I let you down as this is not my intention.

I…

Twitter · May 12, 2023, 1:07 AM

[subtle talon]

make ilv (com) great again

damn this com has some big egos

[eager plover]

The primary motivation behind launching Governance V2 was to A) further decentralise our operations and B) enhance our team by incorporating additional expertise in crucial areas. Marketing, for instance, requires skills such as SEO, advertising, growth hacking, copywriting, and PR management.

Currently, as both the CEO and the acting CMO, I'm managing PR alongside a small yet effective team of marketers. Our first campaign cost us zero dollars and turned us into one of the largest discords in all of crypto. We are small, and scrappy, but effective - however, the idea of having a group of individuals with expertise in areas we are lacking is very attractive to me. Our team would undoubtedly benefit from the input of individuals with specialised skills.

It's important to note that not everyone requires financial compensation to contribute their expertise. Our existing council members have provided invaluable support in areas like contract drafting and agreement reviews. While one might expect more marketing expertise to be available, the irony is that we likely didn't promote Governance V2 effectively enough to attract such talent.

Participation in sub-councils can be as little as a few hours a week, depending on individual availability. For instance, having an SEO expert who understands our vision and product devote even just an hour or two weekly could significantly bolster our marketing efforts.

During my time as a trader, I would have gladly joined a council to support a team I had invested in, even without monetary compensation. In fact, I currently offer my assistance to several projects without any financial reward.

I erred in not recognising that although the candidates might not have precisely matched the initial criteria for the council, they could still offer tremendous value. For instance, with someone like Sam, we could leverage his expertise to enhance our influencer recruitment and campaigns, and potentially, contribute to numerous other areas as well.

I always acknowledge when I am mistaken and never hesitate to admit it. I have extended my apologies to the nominees

[timber ginkgo]

🫶🏻

[obtuse estuary]

I appreciate you clarifying your expectations and the reality that you had to face. I COMPLETELY understand too that you and your team can be highly agile since you are such a small team. There are extreme benefits to this especially when revenue has not truly been stabilized for the company/DAO.

Right now, your words carry a ton of weight both for your team and the community. If your words portray concern and doubt, this impacts those that have placed their hopes and financial decisions in you (a.k.a. illuvium). Unfortunately, you are not yet separated from the success of Illuvium. Once Illuvium takes off, your words will hold less sway as there is another foundation for investors and followers to stand on (the product), but until then I urge you to continuously instill confidence EVEN when you doubt it yourself.

Ignorance is bliss and in many cases, it's better for us as a DAO to confidently move forward in ignorance. It may not be the best right away, but we will always be taking steps in the right direction.

[proud bronze]

I am glad you reached out to Sam and got him back in the running

[warm shore]

Thank you ser! 🫡
I think that in regards of this entire story, a nice way to move forward would be that one of the missions for the Marketing Sub-Council this Epoch should be to work collaboratively with the Community Sub-Council to enhance the actual communication around Governance so that we improve our chances of attracting the kind of profiles you need and hope for.

Also, since i was first webmaster and then learned Webmarketing, SEO was obviously one of the 1st things I learned, and while not being as expertized as someone with a degree, I'll happily volunteer a few hours for some help where it's needed irregardless of the elections results.

[last garnet]

I know this channel is about Kieran's suggestion to dissolve the marketing council, but since it is also about Gov 2 and the number of sub-councils has impact on the IMC voting structure:

Could someone help me alleviate this concern:

Once council members have been elected by DAO members, just a few of them have the power to enact a proposal and make the team (ILV Labs) execute it.

I am not even talking about corruption, bribes etc., but what if they are just incompetent, don't see the technical or financial impact or don't get the founders and ILV labs vision of Illuvium?

I know that a proposal has to move through community and sub-council and a lot of bad (and sometimes good) ideas are vetted out.

But have the DAO and Gov 2 matured so much that we really want to give them so much power over ILV Labs and the founders vision?

The way I currently see Gov 2, ILV Labs has no other choice than to execute even the most flawed proposals.

There is a Emergency Proposal Process, but why is there no Bad Proposal Prevention Process that would allow ILV Labs to stop bad proposals (of course with justification and an alternative proposal etc.) ?

Let's be honest, yes we are a DAO, but ILV Labs makes tons of decisions as we speak and without IIP/ICCPs. ILV Labs is not our admin, we tell what to do, they do most of the brain work and the DAO is (should be) more in an advisory role. At least at the moment.

Am I missing something?

[pastel ivy]

It’s the DAO that proposed ideas and the council voted on them what they think would be best for the DAO. For some reason most people think only council members can propose IIPs

[last garnet]

Yes, but what if the DAO thinks e.g. fuel should be on rails, while ILV labs has designed the Illuvium economy around a free fuel market?

Now ILV labs has to change almost all of Illuvium to make it work with fuel on rails.

Do we want this as a DAO?

[warm shore]

Well any discussions/ideas around the game usually don't go very far before someone from the team steps in and explains the constraints/challenges for such a proposal. I would be very surprised if after the team said "no rails" and explained their thought process, the proposal to even be made an IIP with community traction. Then let's say it does, that IIP has to go through community sub-council then strategy sub-council and ULTIMATELY IMC... isn't that enough opportunities for the team or council members to aknowledge the problems associated and refuse a bad decision?

[last garnet]

Yes, that's how it should work.

But I am not talking about the normal case, but the emergency.

For bugs or exploits we have the Emergency Proposal Process, but not for bad ideas that still made it to a IMC council approval.

Bad ideas could be as devastating as an exploit.

[pastel ivy]

If they made it to a council vote, the community already decided it’s not a bad idea.

[last garnet]

But the community might be totally wrong !

[pastel ivy]

They might be

[last garnet]

Bad ideas have destroyed whole civilizations before us !

[polar kernel]

The team could also be wrong. But I doubt in the current structure if the team put up a good argument it would get past sub-council and double would be surprised if it got passed IMC.

[pastel ivy]

We have 3 thumbs up and 42 thumbs down in this one. Maybe the community is wrong, maybe Kieran is. I believe in the current structure Kieran has to listen to the community.

[coral quest]

Here's a hypothetical scenario where the IMC is WAY off base and goes against all reason with a proposal.

Vote of No Confidence is started against one or many of the IMC members. ILV stakers vote for/against the vote of no confidence.

It's important to acknowledge that all parties have success as an inherent goal. ILV stakers want the game to launch and be successful. The team wants the game to launch and be successful. The council wants the game to launch and be successful. Everyone involved has some amount of skin in the game.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm confused about what kind of devastatingly bad idea you think the community and council would ramrod through against the team's wishes.

That's a genuine question, I just don't understand where the concern is rooted. I'm having a hard time even cooking up a hypothetical.

[polar kernel]

what are your thoughts on the rails example that illuvithor gave?

[last garnet]

Thanks

[coral quest]

Rails vs. no rails is impactful, but I honestly don't think it's a sink or swim scenario. Both outcomes can be set up in a way that leads to success.

If Labs had designed around a free market, and the system is not performant, I'd expect us to look at the data and conduct an analysis of how much time would be required to change the system, and what the expected difference would be. We're talking about a cost benefit analysis at that point, and I fail to see a scenario where there couldn't be some sort of concensus around whether it was worthwhile to perform that work.

I mean, think about any other client/contractor relationship. If you hired a roofer to change your shingles, and they performed the work, and then you told them "Hey, I actually want those shingles made of adamantite, and also can you reframe my house with dragon bones, oh and also I need cosmetic surgery, can you do that too?", I'd expect them to give you a pretty clear analysis that what you were asking for was foolish and not possible. If somehow the IMC at that point in time wanted to pursue such a path, I'd absolutely have faith in our community to vote those IMC members out.

The example is a bit outlandish, but team members sit on each sub-council specifically so that sub-councils can be informed about the workloads, timelines, and other development factors that proposals would impact.

[last garnet]

If somehow the IMC at that point in time wanted to pursue such a path, I'd absolutely have faith in our community to vote those IMC members out.

Why would the community, that wants fuel on rails, would vote out the IMC members voting for fuel on rails?

The problem is that the community wants something, but ILV labs can not do it, without an insane amount of rework or destroying the complete economy.

The fuel on rails example is pretty good IMO, because a lot of DAO members could be interested in low fuel prices, just like citizens want cheap oil and food prices. They don't have the DAO in mind, but there own bank account.

You then say, that during the IIP process the ILV Labs team will convince the council members to reconsider the proposal.

But I am saying: What if this doesn't work?

I am talking about emergency provisions not the normal case.

[coral quest]

I'd say that this sounds like the kind of thing I'd happily vote an IMC out for. Forcing a bad proposal through without considering the team's guidance about the viability of said proposal by using the Emergency Proposal Process? That would be an egregious misuse of the intent of that process.

Where's the Emergency to justify something like that?

Normal Case: The team weighs in on the technical elements of implementing a proposal. Even if our council is somehow not able to acknowledge that a proposal is net negative, our community isn't likely to accept that. If it turns out both the community and council aren't able to conduct any kind of critical analysis, we're in trouble, but are we really going to assume that as a base case? Do we have any precedent suggesting that? It kind of gets into the territory of worrying about meteors landing on your house for me at that point, but I could be missing something as well.

The specific example of greedy individuals pushing for cheaper prices for in-game transactions really doesn't hold up - Our electorate are ILV Stakers - The group with the most benefit to gain from increasing overall revenue. Why would that group favour a system that makes less revenue?

It's just strange to set up scenarios where it's ILV Stakers vs. Team. Our incentives are aligned in the most fundamental ways.

[last garnet]

Okay, I get it.

We have an emergency process for bugs, but you don't think we need one for bad proposals, because their chances are just so low, that they are not worth considering.

I disagree, but that's okay, too.

[coral quest]

If the mechanism for a bad proposal to occur is that both the community and council stop behaving rationally, I don't know if there's a "bad proposal process" that could function in a decentralized way. I also don't think there's substantial risk of that happening, but I'd be happy to talk over what such a process could look like.

[last garnet]

The bad proposal process would have to involve ILV Labs, they would have to initiate it, because the proposal would be bad from an ILV Labs perspective and good from a DAO perspective.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this:

ILV Labs is the brains and the body at the moment, the DAO isn't developing the games and designing the meta verse economy.

But we are setting up the DAO with Gov 2 to make decisions possibly impacting ILV Labs in a big and unintended way.

We are not the typical UniSwap DAO that has all code on the blockchain and is pretty simple, we have most everything off-chain as normal game software. We are really marrying a DAO with a COMPANY in IMO and the DAO is still in its infancy.

ILV Labs should have a mechanism to stop or ignore proposals coming from the DAO.

There are normal processes like 1 Team Admin in each council and there should be a last case stop gap, if all theses mechanisms fail.

But maybe you are right and the 1 Team Admin will have ways I don't know about (NDA etc.) to "convince" other council members of the teams view on certain things and make them vote in a certain direction. But this wouldn't be a transparent or good way to achieve things.

Vitalik has some good points: vitalik.ca/general/2022/09/20/daos.html

Another good read:
graymirror.substack.com/p/optimal-autonomous-organizations

[desert girder]

You probably should have just better defined what a sub-council member is supposed to do. Then maybe the people you were expecting would have signed up.
This should be a lesson to you for the next elections.

[eager plover]

I agree. If you read up in this chat I explain this was one of my shortfalls

[shrewd parrot]

Awesome

[desert girder]

Yes, exactly. I've seen it. And now that it's clear to everyone what the mistake was and how to avoid it in the future, we could actually put this discussion to rest.

[whole schooner]

Know this is in your comments/IIP, but will probably be helpful to have a public ELI5 on the expectations for + limits of governance as it relates to the team

[obtuse estuary]

Hire a PR assistant for your social media accounts. You are now too high-profile. Any future problem solved.

[polar kernel]

You were a part of this discussion, but just wanted to point others to it:
4 months ago when the community was discussing experience/qualifications:
#1056018831941840906 message

[spiral lagoon]

Well said and thank you for the serious introspection, reflection, and follow-up action on the topic. I encourage everyone to remember that this structure will be flawed, just as every candidate will be in some ways. Community support for the Gov V2 framework is clearly strong. To the nominees for marketing and all sub-councils, I challenge each of us to contribute to make this a good first step as we implement this new governance format and prove that support well-founded. Where we need to adjust, we should do so as we have some time to evaluate this framework pre-launch in a way that will give us the bandwidth to do so without delaying or impacting open beta.

[timber ginkgo]

🫶🏻