Reward and Achievement goals

[raw sentinel]

In response to the question posted by @valid lotus today: "... currently the plan is to release new stretch goals with new achievement rewards each Wave, do people prefer this over maintaining stretch goals without a reset? interested to get some thoughts."

For lower level rewards, I think they could be reset for every wave (especially if they're in some way tied to a wave, like the get a free Standard/Mega disk from the next wave).

For higher level rewards, I don't think they should be reset every wave. Even if kept over the course of a full set I don't think a lot of people will be able to reach that goal.

For cosmetic rewards that are appealing to a lot of players, locking them behinda a one-time-chance event isn't really a good incentive.
Your average player will see the reward then desire to get it. If they then find out it's a (for them) impossibly high goal to reach in a very short amount of time it will most likely demotivate them to even go for the goal.
Or even worse. They're late to the party and missed the event in the first place, and are now permanently locked out of ever getting the reward (with the exception of the secondary market should someone list one there). Then they might lose motivation/interest in the game altogether. (I know this from experience from other games I've played).

So instead of limiting the rewards to a specific set/wave, I propose the following:
Keep the rewards as is for now and add a "Latecomer" option to gain those same rewards later, but at increased cost/effort.
This can be done in a number of ways, I'll give some examples:

1. Make non-set-bound goals at a higher rate (like 5-10x higher than the initial ones).
2. Have a limited number of yearly events where players can earn Reward credits to purchase old rewards (This can be tailored to allow players a limited number of "missed" rewards over a certain time period).

I think a system like this would be more appealing for the general player.

[raven dome]

Here is a third option for high level rewards:

Assumptions

Wave 1 Obereum Suites should be something special, but Wave 2-4 collectors should not feel left out.

We should also have goals that motivate collectors, who collect 5.000 D1SKs over the span of multiple Waves.

Solution

What if you got a free Obereum Suite when you owned at least 5.000 D1SKs before a Wave started and can earn an additional Suite for additional 5.000 D1SKs you buy during a Wave?

A Wave 1 collector with 5.000 D1SKs in Wave 1 would then get at least 4 Obereum Suites in total (1 earned with 5.000 D1SKs in Wave 1 and 3 for free in Waves 2-4) and wouldn’t feel diluted from someone who started with Wave 2 or later, because they could only get 3 Suites max.

A collector starting from Wave 2, 3 or 4 would have to buy Suites from a Wave 1 collector to get 4 Suites total or buy at least 10.000 D1SKs. It gets more expensive the later Wave you start collecting in.

The art department could create Stage 1-4 Obereum Suites (e.g. different VFX or/and number of breast stripes etc.) and you could either fuse your Obereum Suites to a higher Stage or sell some.

[stable brook]

"For cosmetic rewards that are appealing to a lot of players, locking them behinda a one-time-chance event isn't really a good incentive."

Seems like the perfect incentive to me.

"Keep the rewards as is for now and add a "Latecomer" option to gain those same rewards later, but at increased cost/effort."

Wouldn't this in effect be no different than being able to purchase the item from the secondary market at an increased cost at a later date.

I propose to just offer a new suit for every wave.
The Obereum suit would always be known as the OG suit that you could only get in wave 1 set 1. Every other consecutive suit would still be extremely limited in number and highly sought after, but never the first.

[raw sentinel]

"Seems like the perfect incentive to me."

Keep in mind that this is from the perspective of a player unable to spend 45k$ in 3 months. Then it's not an incentive it's just a poster saying "This item does not exist."

"Wouldn't this is effect be no different than being able to purchase the item from the secondary market at an increased cost at a later date."

No, as it's no guarantee the item will ever be sold on the secondary market. Having a second option (even if more expensive than it was originally at least gives you the ability to obtain it).

"I propose to just offer a new suit for every wave."

That would just add to the number of unobtainable items for the majority of players and not help in any way to get any of those high-end items. Especially if the level of investment required to unlock those rewards remain at a high level for each wave.

Do note that this is from the perspective of a player/collector not having access to huge amounts of money, and of the assumption that rewards/achievements in a game are meant to be used and enjoyed by players and not just offered as trophy pieces for the biggest investors.

[storm wigeon]

Solution: make everything free and available to everyone so nobody ever feels left out

[raven dome]

Find ways to motivate everyone to spend as much as possible now and in the future by giving them goals they can achieve in whatever increments they can afford in the moment. A whale might be able to achieve it now, a small fish might take a bit longer, but still knows it can be achieved some day.

[stable brook]

"That would just add to the number of unobtainable items for the majority of players"

Isn't that the purpose of the suit though?

[raw sentinel]

I thought the purpose of the suit (and other rewards in general) were to give people an incentive to spend more on the project.

[raven dome]

There will always be extremely rare items, but we should have a hierarchy of rare to extreme rare items that encourage even small fish to keep spending until they achieved at least a common Obereum Suite. For this reason I would like to have the Alpha Obereum Suite for everyone who got it in Wave 1 and other/staged Obereum Suites for players who take longer to buy the D1SKs necessary to get such a Suite.

We need stretch goals for all types of players.

[raw sentinel]

Exactly.

[raw sentinel]

I do like the idea of an Alpha suit and a regular version. (Given that the regular version stays accessible for the majority of players regardless of time. Not saying it should be easy to get, just that it should be possible).

[shy temple]

How about simply leaving the current suit alone and adding a different version as a reward for continuous buys? This way, the early whales would have a super limited item as a reward for investing a considerable amount in the project early, and smaller players could obtain a different version over time. We could just have a different oberium suit added as a reward for buying 10k disks (regardless of waves).

[stable brook]

Yes by offering rare items that are unobtainable for most players.

The team were clearly not trying to entice small fish by having a 5000 disk purchase goal.

[stable brook]

I agree with this. Offer more items of differing rarities to offer more people more incentives.
I don't agree with making current items less rare.

[raw sentinel]

To me, unobtainability is not an incentive.

I get that they want to reward big spenders, but why limit it to just them?
As you said offer more items of differing rarities. But also don't lock the majority out of a chance (even if only a small one) to get the really good stuff.

[raven dome]

Yes, you spent all that money knowing you will be one of the few Obereum Suite owners and that’s fine. But we have to be careful that the discussion doesn’t quickly become one about the desirability of specific Suites. What would you say, when the Suites for Wave 2+ will look even better than the Wave 1 Obereum Suite? I think we should avoid creating totally different Suites for each Wave and instead have Stages and an Alpha Version. It works for Illuvitars, why not for Suites?

[raven dome]

With my idea (above) you - as a Wave 1 Obereum Suite owner - would be the only one owning an Alpha version and since you would be able to fuse it to the highest stage, you would also own the rarest one available. It could have 4 stripes on the breast plate and some cool VFX that only a Stage 4 Suite shows. All other Obereum Suites obtained by collectors getting to 5.000 D1SKs in later Waves would be of lower stage and definitely not Alpha. Yours would be the most rare. The Fusing ensures that there is no inflation.

[stable brook]

"To me, unobtainability is not an incentive."

It is to the people you are trying to get to buy 5000 disks.

"I get that they want to reward big spenders, but why limit it to just them?"

Agreed. More items should be available, 500 disks, 1000 disks, 2500 disks etc, possibly.

"What would you say, when the Suites for Wave 2+ will look even better than the Wave 1 Obereum Suite?"

Future illuvitars/skins/illuvials etc will all inevitably look way cooler in the future. It would be a very bad thing is they didn't.

"I think we should avoid creating totally different Suites for each Wave and instead have Stages"

Creating a new "stage" outfit or a new suit entirely seems the same amount of work to me (could be completely wrong). I like both options though, upgradeable/staged outfits or new outfits.

[raw sentinel]

"It is to the people you are trying to get to buy 5000 disks."

Yes, they get something noone else has, and noone else will ever be able to get.
That approach just seems counterproductive if the goal is to appeal to the general public for mass-adoption. Especially since there's nothing comparable as a lower level reward. (Seems we end up back here all the time... There definetly needs to be more levels of rewards).

[stable brook]

"Seems we end up back here all the time... There definetly needs to be more levels of rewards"

I think most do seem to agree with this.

The disagreement is in thinking that there is anything wrong with the current top tier. I believe it is fine the way it is.
Some things will always be unobtainable for most people, that's life, but there will always be a chance to purchase them at some point in future if one should find themselves with the means to do so (providing the seller is willing to let it go).

I am nowhere near 5000 disks purchased and likely wont be by the end of the wave. Doesn't stop me buying disks or stop me enjoying the game.

[raw sentinel]

"Some things will always be unobtainable for most people, that's life"

Yes, but the devs have the power to change this fact for their own little universe.

I'm not saying they should give everyone every reward. I'm just saying they shouldn't lock out 99% of the playerbase from ever being able to get the higher level rewards. A small chance requiring a lot of effort is better than no chance at all.

[stable brook]

The team are trying to entice individuals to spend a minimum of $46,000 (current pricing) to obtain this particular skin. Without the understanding that this skin would be extremely limited, do you realistically think anyone would bother to aim for such a goal.

To be worth that figure I would expect single digit figures on the mints.

[raw sentinel]

That's exactly the problem. An incentive like this for an item of extreme rarity is not necessarily good for the project as a whole.
In the end there might be only 5-10 of these items in existence, most of which will never be sold. Ever.
The message this sends is that the project favours big spenders, and that even if you over time spend an equal or greater amount of money, your money isn't worth as much simply because it was it wasn't spent in an extremely narrow period of time.

Sure I can understand that people investing in something like this would want something ultra-rare to brag about having.
But is it worth the risk of it being seen as a slap in the face to the lesser spenders every time a new high-end reward comes out that is effectively unobtainable to them?

It may be the right way to go for the project at this stage, to bring in more money from early investors. I just think it's dangerous to risk associating the brand with an elitist approach to rewards if mass adoption by regular players is the end goal.

[jade halo]

You basically saying to ask Ferrari to sell a Ferrari car for £1 so everyone can afford it because why left all out. So what’s the point of a Ferrari being a Ferrari anymore rare should stay rare

[stable brook]

I agree with the principal. A Ferrari would lose a lot of appeal if a lot more people owned them, just as that suit would, which in turn would de-incentivise investment into said products.