#Make Onboarding easier/Better F2P experience - Community Brainstorm

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

fickle karma
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Hello everyone,
After our recent proposal with @elder hamlet to improve the F2P experience, we've acknowledged that there are many DAO members that would indeed like to see the F2P experience in Illuvium improved and made more engaging. (just that our idea was not the solution...)

So we wanted to keep the conversation going, lets all put our heads together as a community to share different ideas for how we can make F2P more engaging without completely changing the games economy and structure.

Here's what the feedback taught us:

  • Need to include a positive/neutral impact across the entire IBG and be able to back it up with actual data.
  • Need for the idea to add as little time to the runway as possible.

Here are also the main ideas that raised from the community during the previous chat as a start for our discussions here:

  • "Battle pass" of some kind that not only rewards engaged players for their effort but also gives the opportunity for limited budgets to enhance their experience in a more "monthly subscription" way rather than doing a lot of micro-transactions all the time.
  • Including Illuvials from other Tiers into S0 areas while not being able to catch them in those areas to "show the players what else awaits for them in this world if they ever get to be willing to pay"
  • Untradables (see proposal https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1092111899845472406)
  • A free Deck (that would eventually rotate or not) for players to be able to jump into PvP and experience it for free but that are not actually assets they own. (maybe they have to complete some kind of weekly challenge to unlock it)

We look forward to hearing everyones Ideas!

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elder hamlet
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Look forward to Brainstorming, Debating & Discussing ideas

lean ingot
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I love the idea of a free deck to start pvp right away. Then some type of weekly challenges.

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Having the ability to tell a friend that you want to 1v1 them in this new game you found. And be able to do it right away without teaching them about blockchain or that they need to pay money upfront to play against you.

summer torrent
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Why not take the deck from Survival each day and have it also be the unranked pvp deck?

fickle karma
fickle karma
summer torrent
fickle karma
elder hamlet
fickle karma
jaunty niche
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I think the "PVP rotation deck" should only work in a normal game mode and not ranked just like in league of legends. This would allow new players to engage in the game without really taking any hit to the value of the Illuvials on the market.

timber tiger
# jaunty niche I think the "PVP rotation deck" should only work in a normal game mode and not r...

Something like this has been discussed prior when it was brought up only S1 illuvials were needed to play w/ S3 illuvials in arena and such. It's definitely on the team's radar to have a potential rotation of illuvials.
#🎮〕illuvium-overworld message

I'll link back to my post I slapped on the tail end of the last discussion for most of my thoughts:
#1092111899845472406 message

In general we want the players playing as much as possible within the ecosystem and should provide soft rewards they can accumulate from playing, but NOT necessarily the same things they get from paid OW runs. Breadcrumbs should be plentiful to tie between the games as well as tie to the paid OW stages.

Untradeables I'm not in favor of. I feel that would make it overly complicated and water down the entire benefit of web3 gaming.

"Battle pass" could be done very well

Higher tier illuvials making appearances in S0 but uncatchable could be fine. Occasionally they show up in a battle but unselectable to be captured by T0 shard at conclusion of the battle. Ideally they'd be relatively rare encounters.

A "free deck" should ideally be a weekly rotation of a relatively balanced selection that they can use in survival and unranked arena. Battlepass/account leveling up can unlock additional "slots" for the free rotation. So new account gets 6 weekly rotation illuvials, someone that's played a bit can get 8, then 10, then 12, and maybe higher tier/stage illuvials in those further unlocks.

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tough void
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So essentially everything @burnt star and me said are the new community feedback ideas, that´s a step forward.

torpid tiger
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The free rotation for normal mode is a good idea

tough void
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Anything that doesn´t give ownership but a time and or accomplishment gated trial is usually the way games promote their assets.

fleet quartz
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Feeling like you are regurgitating the previous "untradeables proposal" in to another thread on this..

The idea of "free deck of illuvials" has already been brought up by @hasty dawn
https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1092222511481098380
People intrigued by this idea should discuss there..

I am calling it out..
@fickle karma considering that you have not been present that much within the community and council elections are around the corner ..you suddenly pop out of nowhere to offer & push for something that is counter productive towards the DEV teams current workload.
I feel this whole conceptual idea would help you gain votes if you became a candidate for the council.
Question: Would you still be offering PAID training sessions for people if you were elected on the council or do it freely knowing that you are helping people as best as possible to learn the game whilst being paid by the DAO? I question your personal motives behind this push

@elder hamlet, your a nice guy.. but i thought you of all people would understand the process of an IIP (being an ex council member) but assisting in creating what seemed to me an instant proposal without the entire community discussing it beforehand through the ideas channel, which would roll in to a proposal formed by the current council to be voted upon. its a bit "how you going" if you ask me

I propose that before jumping in and pushing for something that could dramatically change the current layout of Illuvium's "WEB3" game structure we wait till the governance V2 structure has been implemented. After, we can have these "Heavy" types of discussions as there would be delegated people to handle these types of situational discussions accordingly.

I feel that when the game has at least released its next 2 regions we can discuss further with a stronger outcome

burnt star
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If we are to do a battle pass it's likely quite some work, I'm no dev but maybe someone like @versed crystal has some better understanding of how much work could go into it.

I still think it's probably the easiest and best way to approach this.

If you get a F2P player completing a seasonal battle pass circa 100 levels then they are probably more likely to pay for the premium upgrade as battle passes normally offer good value for money. Battle pass implementation also usually help keep player counts up as people need to actually finish steps and are more likely to do so if they have paid for something.

burnt star
elder hamlet
# fleet quartz Feeling like you are regurgitating the previous "untradeables proposal" in to an...

We submitted it as an idea, it was rejected, we let it go… this is us saying “fair enough so lets brainstorm as a community to solve something many feel can be improved”

so we thought it would be a good idea to keep the conversation going and brainstorm as a community (as so far nothing on this topic has actually ended up as an IIP)

On people questioning @fickle karma’s intentions I’m genuinely surprised, we’ve been talking in private about illuvium for so long and recently decided instead of critiquing stuff privately what if we actually proactively see how we can actually help, I dont think thats a bad thing.

If someone was doing something to help the DAO and also wanted to run for council and you personally have an issue with that then don’t vote for that person, don’t derail genuine discussions trying to help, defo calling out @polar night on this too, why not welcome anyone proactively trying to start conversations to benefit the dao? Maybe I’m missing something🤷‍♀️

Also confused how zeps getting so much heat for doing something together with me when I’ve received zero heat for literally the same thing, why the hostility?

tough void
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The question is about how genuine the discussion is, especially when the same talking points get reiterated repeatedly, and critical talking points are met with being ignored or anecdotal responses.
I have voiced that the timing and the way, especially zep, but also you are engaging in this "dialogue" isn't how you engage in a dialogue, but in a debate where you wanna score a point for your side instead of figuring out if it is reasonable and productive or not.
This is a very dishonest way of talking and makes me question ulterior motives, similar to how Muffin pointed it out.

elder hamlet
# tough void The question is about how genuine the discussion is, especially when the same ta...

not sure how you can say that critical talking points are being ignored when we even spoke to you in voice later after the initial chat and I personally got a lot of insight out of what you had to say... (and we've let our previous proposal go once we saw it not going anywhere lol)
So because others think you're trying to score points (when ur just trying to actively help) we should what? how should we move forward?

tough void
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Move forward by being honest and having dialouge instead of debate.

Also ,yeah we speak in voice, after you ignore the negative talking points in ideas chat where everyone can see it.
Also not the first time this topic was discussed and e.g. like I mentioned in voice you are actively missrepresenting Data-Points like this 78% of game revenue is from F2P games when many of those games in that category would be defined as Pay 2 Win by many. This was brought up in the past when talking to zep as well, how am I supposed to think this is genuine, when it looks like lying to me?
If we didn´t talk about things like that in the past, ok cool missinformed, bad reasearch, this way is looks very disingenious to me.

fickle karma
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The only question I have to you @tough void is what is YOUR intent by trying SO actively to go after me on pretty much everything I do or say? Do you see yourself as some sort of justice hero of some kind or... ?

now to @fleet quartz you don't know me but the reason i've been away for the last months is because i'm about to be dad, is that enough of a reason to focus more on other stuff than Illuvium? Also about your money concerns, I live my life pretty well and don't need any other income and IF i ever decide to run, be sure the money won't be the motivation.

elder hamlet
# tough void Move forward by being honest and having dialouge instead of debate. Also ,yeah ...

i mean i personally wasnt there for the past discussion of this, you cant expect everyone to be privy to every past discussion, we're not coming disingeniously trying to misrepresent anything and we've quickly moved past points we've seen wont work (hence this new discussion and it is not discussion and now debate exactly like you say)

we've done everything u say but u keep coming for zep for some reason

tough void
tough void
elder hamlet
tough void
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if you say 1+1=3 for you, that´s why other people should do X, I´d disagree with it

elder hamlet
fickle karma
tough void
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The topics we discuss here are numbers based and majority people behavior statistics based, I feel, I think doesn´t work here

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I also wanna point out I don´t have a personal opinion or preference nor have I ever mentioned that, but only comparable products or data points that would go against the brought up ideas, I have done that multiple times in the past as well whenever there was an idea I thought was going against what I know is working in comparable situations, no matter who brought up the idea.

elder hamlet
fickle karma
tough void
versed crystal
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Survival mode in its finalized state is intended to be a key tool in our onboarding strategy. We've discussed having a rotating free deck, downsides are that a singular free deck would be very samey to play against and play with. And would heavily negate a significant portion of the strategy of the PvP - which rests with the deck creation.

fickle karma
versed crystal
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Having a number of free Illuvials and allowing you to build a deck would be stronger from an experience POV, but would have significant downsides relating use of NFTs and the importance of ownership of them.

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At this point in time, I at least am happy with our free to play offerings and we don't have scope to dramatically change direction on this in the short term.

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Now if we get to release and it becomes apparent that we need to do more, I'm more than happy to change to and tweak.

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But quite frankly, at this stage. We don't have the luxury of refactors to our approach, and scope remains key.

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But if we want to change our approach and include more complicated free to play tools, like a battle pass. I'd say thats going to come at the cost of multiple months of delays.

elder hamlet
leaden rivet
shy wigeon
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I really dont see why any changes would need to be implemented before open beta launch.

We already have a gameplay loop thats been planned for multiple years now. Most people support it as is.
Lets just launch open beta and see how it goes, If the player data indicates that we need more content to retain players in F2P, then we can make some decisions around what might be needed once we have more information, and without delaying the open beta by adding extra scope.

burnt star
versed crystal
versed crystal
leaden rivet
elder hamlet
fickle karma
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I'm just done in general with this discord and go back to say what i got to say in private where i'll not be taking the risk to scare someone with very poor intentions and fearing for his own potential spot in a sub-council. I was already very doubtful about if it was worth my time and effort even tho i know i have the credentials for it but the more i think of it the more i think i don't need this shit in my life tbh.

@tough void Now just leave me.

tough void
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lol

leaden rivet
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I don't know why this discussion is so heated, words are not banned on this discord as far as I know, ppl need to have more respect with diff opinions

fleet quartz
versed crystal
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and if you refer to the other folks - 🤷‍♂️ yeah I'm not sure whats going on of late 😄

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we've become a little tribal

rancid steppe
gloomy escarp
burnt star
gloomy escarp
versed crystal
leaden rivet
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quoting Kieran, ppl forget they are on the same side trying to improve the game, and get distracted on being right all the time, in a rude manner.

versed crystal
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But still exists for sure.

versed crystal
versed crystal
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But would we be here without the love and passion? IMO - no.

leaden rivet
versed crystal
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10 people - 10 travels. Everything they catch becomes available.

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Everyone builds decks based upon the total pool of acquired NFTs

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battle - winners get to keep the found NFT's

leaden rivet
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looks fun, but it looks hard to imagine a sync of it all together

rancid steppe
tidal gale
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This discussion doesn’t separate Arena and Overworld enough. They are two different games and require different solutions for player acquisition and retention.

Overworld

Everything in Overworld is about collecting, the game is really just a way to add skill, gambling and fun based elements to collecting valuable digital items. This isn’t the game you play just for fun (in its current state at least), waste time or increase you status, you play it to collect and increase the value of your collection in a fun way.

Here our target audience isn’t the free to play gamer or even a gamer in general, it is the serious collector, who at this moment is still trading on eBay with physical items. We should find ways to get them interested in our Illuvial NFTs and not focus on how we can attract F2P gamers, who don’t want to spend money in the first place.

We could e.g. allow for buying Illuviuals the same way you can buy Beyond D1SKs today, find Illuvials on automatic missions in IL:Z etc.

But in all those cases money has to be spent for each run, disk opening, mission.

Auto-Battler

The Auto-Battler is another beast, because like chess you can play it for the intellectual fun alone.

Here we can attract the mainstream gamer, if we find ways for him/her to play with deck renting/leasing, scholar ships, survival mode, T0 training mode etc.

We would need to find solutions for a mainstream gamer to play it like any other auto battler on the market, without having to build his/her own expensive deck in the Overworld first.

Matching Collector/Investor and F2P

These two different player types need to be matched up.

The collector has decks, that the F2P player would like to play with in the Arena, while the collector might not have the time or skill to play his decks.

We should find ways to bring these two player types together in the most efficient market based way possible.

Then we have a nice loop, in which a skilled F2P player adds value to a collector’s deck by winning for him in the Arena.

Since this deck belongs to a collector, the skilled F2P player only gets some fuel, credits etc. in return for their skilled play.

But this F2P player can then invest it into building his own deck and at some point needs to find other skilled F2P players to play his own decks.

Positive Sum Meta(-verse) Game

A flywheel effect starts and extends the player base, while the NFT ownership aspect keeps them invested in the Illuvium universe.

And wait until we tell the eBay style collectors that our NFT items actually have utility and gain value when someone plays with them and levels them up.

Who would still want to own fragile paper cards locked up out of sight in a safe to protect them, when you can have digital items that actually gain value the more they are used in our games.

The same goes for the F2P players, who actually have a chance to make real money just by being good in our games.

Both player types, collector/investor and skilled F2P, continue to do what they are best at, but by working together in an open market with ownership - as describe above - they almost magically enhance their own efforts by a huge magnitude.

This is basically capitalism:

Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society. The essential feature of capitalism is the motive to make a profit.

Or Adam Smith:

Adam Smith was among the first philosophers of his time to declare that wealth is created through productive labor, and that self-interest motivates people to put their resources to the best use. He argued that profits flowed from capital investments, and that capital gets directed to where the most profit can be made.

Positive sum games at their best and Illuvium can stay true to its web 3 ethos.

hallow cloud
# versed crystal Defo worth a discussion as we find out more, and particularly I am interested in...

My fave idea in this convo is the free PvP deck. For a few core reasons:

  1. Lower friction onboarding into an aspect of play otherwise unavailable (as mentioned ad nauseum)

  2. Seasonal free decks allows for a measure of - to coin Lasky's term - "eventfulness": keeping the game refreshed with a relatively low-dev-ask solution, allowing for seasonal free metas, etc

  3. F2P broadly speaking is about feeding free players to the whales: building up a critical mass of players via no payment barrier so that whales can get their jollies off enough to spend big cash. PvP is more engaging to whales if there are more free deck people to crush

Outside that, I'm generally of the opinion that we should have a game in our hands before we start any more substantial external-looking-in tweaking process. It'll be relatively clear from early live data if the tradeoffs are too asymmetric one way or the other, and every larger pivot pushes the game further away

Worth noting that:

  • We're only exposed to a small sliver of the relevant internal context
  • This convo pivoted to 'toxic af' super early; community members throwing their ideas in the ring is another (and deeper) form of onboarding that we should also support
timber tiger
timber tiger
# hallow cloud My fave idea in this convo is the free PvP deck. For a few core reasons: 1) Low...

The way you put it as "seasonal free decks" w/ "eventfulness" and seasonal metas actually reminds me of how MTG sets work. As new sets come in old sets rotate out, and you can only use the last few/several sets in the Standard legal format. It would actually be kind of cool if there were "seasons" where F2P got new illuvials rotated in batches with a certain number of batches available at once. I REALLY like that idea.

dreamy star
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i don’t know if this idea was proposal…but f2p means to ad players to play the game…so,to play the game to make like this

  1. Zero - to play an collect fuel with this fuel to rent ( per days)illuvium to play in arena. Like this we can rent the illuvium that we catch
    The fuel that receive the owner will come from pool game (form blockchains) (dao I don’t know the exact name) fuel from f2p is not on the blockchains. When somebody rent from f2p fuel is a transaction web2 but for the owner is a transaction web3
    When the illuvium is rent you can not sell or transfer or use for arena (the owner)
    To reduce the bots the owner can win from rent approx 2-3$ or less per day (values in fuel), per wallet. 1 wallet(account) from rent can make only 2$ (in fuel) per day for exemplar
  2. Arena -illuvium that captured from tier zero and if they want can rent
    Also for f2p some tournament that they can win illuvium or fuel in blockchains or Ilv etc
  3. Overworld play for upgrade equipment captured illuvium tier0 and collect different resource that can use in arena…exactly that is now

The rent option can be for everyone

it’s free to play if they want more… they can go to the next level

Sorry for my bad English, also I hope that doesn’t change to mach the economy of the game …I am not expert…

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My point of view is like this: you want free then the game is web2 if you want ownership then the game is web 3….like dota you can play without invest but if you want more you invest in skins or something else

shy wigeon
fickle karma
signal sequoia
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Rotating free illuvials would be pretty harmless. Think the league of legends model. That way anyone can enjoy unranked pvp regardless of their involvement.

flint snow
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thanks @versed crystal. Suddenly I see a proper conversation and not just shit throwing into each other.

hasty dawn
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I also like free rotating deck.

As a side benefit, let’s have a discussion around evolution of illuvials needed for all types of PvP. To get a stage 2 or 3 you must evolve instead of gettin for “free” since a free rotating deck could solve accessibility of competitive deck.

Main con - competitive decks are very expensive

Main pro - more trips in ow, have a true sense of progression.

I don’t see myself spending loads of time in ow or having a deep connection with stage 3 if I don’t have to work hard for it.

Do others feel the same or are the benefits of easy access to stage 2 & 3 worth the drawbacks?

lapis parcel
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Having a seasonal rotating deck that would be F2P to onboard new gamers would be a win in my book. The deck could be comprised of F2P illuvials that would give them a competitive chance and also allow them to experience different tiers and stages. They could be allowed for standard pvp not competitive. Not all players will want to grind OW to be able to play their friends. The more eyes and gamers that get to try PVP the better. Keeping the illuvials on a seasonal loop would hopefully not put much strain on the team as it would allow more time to curate the FTP pvp deck.

manic dune
tidal gale
# tidal gale This discussion doesn’t separate Arena and Overworld enough. They are two differ...

Additional advantages:

  • All tiers of Overworld could be played by F2P players for free - playing and collecting for Collectors/Investors, who pay for fuel and provide the Illuvials/shards, but in return get some or all of the Illuvials caught by the F2P player.

  • The F2P players gain all the ranking and social status improvements from their skilled play, the investor "just" gets more Illuvials, shards, resources etc. And they could even agree for the F2P player to get some Illuvials, too. This would introduce the F2P player to the ownership concept.

  • F2P players rank up with improved skills and past achievements and unlock higher and higher tier decks/resources from Collectors/Investors that they could play next. They would start in T0 and only after showing mastery of this level will they be able to get decks from investors for a T1 play.

  • The matching between Collector decks and F2P adds another social element to our games, because it could be implemented as a mix between the IlluviDex and a leaderboard, showing the decks offered for play, the revenue sharing percentage, the skill level required, the Illuvials/Shards a F2P player could keep etc.

  • A F2P player doesn't have to worry about money, they just play, improve and rank up, but they would never see a paywall. The Investor/Collector just has to think about improving their inventory and how to create decks that want to be played by the best F2P players and how to do good marketing for their inventory.

  • This separation between investor/owner and worker/player works out in the real world. Contrary to what many believe, most workers don't want to be investors or owners. They don't want to have the risks that come with ownership. If not, everyone would be a business owner or investor. Most just want to do some meaningful work and then have time to enjoy their lives. We can give them meaningful "work" that combines earning and fun playtime. Whenever in history was this possible?

  • If you want to be an Investor/Collector AND player, that's still possible. Just pay for your own fuel, collect Illuvials and play them in the Arena.

  • No need for free T1-5 decks or a separate game loop. F2P players can play the real game without upfront investment.

  • On the development side it would probably be more akin to account sharing with some additional IlluviDex work to match (auction?) accounts that offer decks and accounts that want to play decks. There are of course details - like can a deck be played by multiple players at the same time etc.

leaden rivet
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On summary it's need work on the f2p experience in both arena and overworld, for me the summary is:

Arena: the idea of a free rotation draft for pvp, it could use even a ranked reward for this mode, different than the owned ones, like a little bit of fuel for top f2p players, is super cool and people can demo characters 🛠️ will take some dev time, not needed on open beta launch

Overworld: could use some encounters up to t3(not only t1 as suggested above) - the counter point is that it would devaluate t1s on paid runs, and for that I got a suggestion to deal with it, make non t0s on the free run worst to capture, my ideia is that it should work like:
Capturing t1: at least t2 shard(paid run equals t1 shard)
Capturing t2: at least t3 shard(paid run equals t2 shard)
Capturing t3: at least t4 shard)
Advantages are, t4 and t5 remain as it is, people can see what changes from time to time on the illuvials overworld, even playing casual, we are redirecting playing cost to the shard instead of the travel cost. If the game is correctly balanced, it should work as suggested. 🛠️ As a programmer myself, I would say it's not hard to implement.

Zero: in my opinion, no changes needed

rancid steppe
# tidal gale Additional advantages: - All tiers of Overworld could be played by F2P players ...

The general idea is great and it's a win-win situation. Whales can have players who play with their collection to maximize their potential, and players who don't want to invest a lot of money or any money at all can have decks to play with. However, there are some downsides to it, such as a significant impact on the in-game economy. New players may not feel the need to spend any money at all, which could hurt revenue generation. It's best to wait and see how the game performs on its own before considering adding new features like an integrated scholar system.

This can be tied into B0tch's proposal where we don't receive free S2 or S3 Illuvials with our S1 Illuvials. This would make all decks more expensive, but it would give players the option of renting them.

tidal gale
timber tiger
# hasty dawn I also like free rotating deck. As a side benefit, let’s have a discussion aro...

To be honest I still don't really understand the point in collecting S2-S3 illuvials if they're playable as soon as you own a S1. If the only game they're used for is Leviathan, that massively reduces the need and desire for them, killing the market. If only whales want them to play the one game, who are they even going to play against? Who's going to pay for stage 3 runs to collect T5 illuvials if nobody needs them, so the demand is low for them and the supply is flooded? But that's another discussion from getting more F2P players and converting them to paying.

swift island
# fickle karma Hello everyone, After our recent proposal with <@840486877227253760> to improve...

Hi @fickle karma, my biggest concern about Illuvium is not the game/gameplay but the onboarding process. The number of steps that you had to go through to buy an Illuvitar was terrible. No offense to the devs – I’m sure they were running against the clock and tried their best – but you simply cannot expect any casual gamer outside of the crypto community to join us when there is so much friction when onboarding. The process to buy an Illuvitar needed to be 1) use email to create an Illuvium account, 2) use credit card to buy Illuvitar pack. That’s it. No more. The never-ending instructions were so long and convoluted it was really no surprise that only 5000 people participated when we have over 1 million emails in our database. I mean, think about it from the perspective of someone with no exposure to crypto: just to buy a pack you needed to send cash from a bank account to a CEX, transfer it to a MetaMask (assuming you know how to set one up), create an IMX account, send funds to the Layer 2, click through 5-6 rather confusing confirmations when buying a pack... Seriously? Even with IMX offering Moonpay, most non-crypto users would have given up by that point! In hindsight, it is no wonder Wave 1 participation levels were such a disappointment. The onboarding process for all Illuvium products needs to be frictionless. One or two clicks maximum. I hope and trust @unique yacht and the team are aware of the onboarding issues and are going to fix them for Wave 2. For Illuvium to succeed, we need to remove all the barriers for entry for casual gamers or they will not join us.

fickle karma
# timber tiger To be honest I still don't really understand the point in collecting S2-S3 illuv...

2 things to note here: Whales in F2P games are on average responsible for 50 to 70% of a game's entire revenue while only representing less than 0,1% of the playerbase. (obviously these stats can vary based on the game's genre and economic model), so we could assume that having some thing that only have a demand from whales is fine.

The other thing is that not everyone in the community is actually actively looking forward for PvP. A lot of our target audience are also collectors that will just want to complete their Illuviary. Some of them will even be willing to complete it in Holo and why not even Dark Holo. That's also demand for those S2-3.

@swift island Yes this has been raised on the other idea as well, I assume that besides the clock, there are also technical limitations that just make onboarding from Web2 into the Web3 hard, but definitely not a tech expert and will let someone more expert than me explain this better.

Thank you for your feedback

burnt star
# swift island Hi <@412869293446004736>, my biggest concern about Illuvium is not the game/game...

I would say its an industry issue, web 3 as a whole is over complex and requires many steps.Tech like IMX passport helps a lot, these are the types of solutions that can aid in onboarding but I think expecting the team to find a solution for this very complex situation for wave 2 Illuvitars is a bit of a stretch, although I agree once the game is out in its early stages and money is coming in the door perhaps some solutions can be made in house.

rancid steppe
rancid steppe
torn totem
#

Onboarding could be considered a process rather than just giving a free deck with the expectation that ppl would play with it. I think a ‘free’ deck doesn’t have to be free. Perhaps the new user completes a sort of training and other steps to ensure the foundation of retention. If they complete all the steps then a new player could be rewarded with some kind of credit to attain a ‘free’ deck out of a set of possible decks. That also gives the new player choice and starts the emotional connection to the game and illuvials.

karmic helm
#

Crap. I hate discord mobile sometimes. I just spent like 20 minutes writing an idea. And then got a phone call. Now it’s gone.

My fault really. Now I’m out of time and will have to do it later.

karmic helm
#

Survival Mode Reward Deck

Upon reaching a checkpoint (every 5 waves or so) while playing survival mode players would receive the opportunity to select 1 of 3 rewards.

These rewards would take the form of account bound (non-NFT) cards that would be usable in Arena Modes. The in-game value (tier) of these rewards would increase as checkpoint level increases. Over time players would build their Reward Deck up to a maximum of 30 cards (or whatever number of cards compose a pvp deck). They would need to swap out cards if they want to claim a new card once they reach the maximum of 30. The cards available to claim as rewards would be illuvials, augments, and even ranger armor and weapons. The illuvials might still be able to be used as any stage of the line when placed in a pvp deck, just like illuvial NFTs (or maybe not).

This system would allow f2p players to experience a fuller pvp after enough time skillfully playing the survival tutorial, while still recognizing that NFT ownership provides greater benefits.

I feel like I had some other little ideas. But this covers much of the basics and basics are all we would need.

karmic helm
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The reality is that the idea likely adds more development than is needed at this point. It’s certainly not something that would need implemented before launch. I simply like coming up with ideas and it’s been awhile since I’ve tried.

cyan sparrow
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Please no battle pass, nothing desired that will force a game to be coded a certain way to create engagement or revenue... please think before destroying illuvium, all ideas can destroy the economy, which we dont even know what it is yet

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im all for a FUN game, get away from the suits monetizing gaming, we have one of the greatest business models ever created, let it work please.. let the game be a game

#

and im pretty sure survival mode comes with a set, nothing requiured

burnt star
rancid steppe
# cyan sparrow Please no battle pass, nothing desired that will force a game to be coded a cert...

Your fear of change is unfounded, we already have established that all of these suggestions would have to wait until the game is up and running because we have a solid game model that we should try first.
Plus, extra workload is not acceptable right now due to the tight deadlines. If we see the need for something like a battle pass once the game is up and running, it can be rolled out.
Furthermore, if changes are rolled out and, in the worst case, they "destroy" Illuvium, we can roll them back and try again in the next season or set.
Illuvium through the DAO can be more dynamic than other big gaming studios.
By working on ideas and solutions to problems, while also being cautious of not overdoing it, the team with the help of the community can create the best game ever.

cyan sparrow
# burnt star How does a battle pass ruin the game, they are pretty much an industry standard ...

Your falling victim to an IP that is based on hype and control but in which gameplay has been destroyed for suits to milk profits... They can do this cuz they have no competition and it wasnt a model created overnite, its based on hype, and gimmicks, are you going to employ these gimmicks into illuvium, such as intentionally overpowered weapons at launch, then nerf em as you soak up the battle pass cash?

#

cuz thats what is selling.. its called exploitation, they have no other place to go, you dont have the base yet

#

people want an edge, battle passes are a marketing gimmick to sell pay to play mechanics that hide them as best as possible.. great excuse to say, yeah its op, we will fix it, 3 weeks later after collecting all the cash... ever notice in COD, the end level guns you unlock this season is the Hemlock, i think there's 3 of them at the start it was Hemlock super OP.... then one bugged gun in the beginning everyone uses to get the hemlock, all the sales happen, then the battle pass is gearing upu for the next one.. oh, Hemlock got nerfed... gee ya think its just a coincidence, not that the next battle pass is coming out? can't have 3 op guns handed out still in players hands, sure aint gonna suck $10 outta me again, if i have a gun that works

#

oh whats this, a fire shotgun that destroys everyone instantly.... its a battle pass.... sales stop... ok nerfed

#

nothing wrong with a battle pass system, but like i said, if it makes developers change the game so they have to implement it to make it work, it destroys game design... which is exactly why games suck today, and why I am even here, because in a DAO, we have voice which can make a game fun again.. Not exploited...

#

make a fun game, the business model is solid and will work.. thats all thats needed, a good game dont need gimmicks,

#

chess, how many people play chess, does chess have a battle pass, after all these thousands of years, still playing chess.... Illuvium is chess on steroids and thats all it has to be, there should be no meta, so the fun is endless

timber tiger
# cyan sparrow Your falling victim to an IP that is based on hype and control but in which game...

There are no rules for battle passes that state you have to put in overpowered weapons and nerf them, or have any I repeat ANY gameplay advantage. My experience with battle passes has been in Fortnite and Starcraft 2, both of which only provide cosmetics (however Fortnite also provides more V-Bucks as you level up, which you can use to buy battlepass again)

Not sure you've read the discussion in here or if you're strawmanning and arguing against something nobody is advocating for. Check out my prior ideas... the concept is to keep people logging in and engaged, make the game feel updated, current, alive, social, eventful. Maybe to also (if they really grind the battlepass/free rewards and collect enough fuel) get a S1+ overworld run, start collecting, then get hooked and become a more paying player buying more S1-S3 OW runs.

#1092111899845472406 message

  1. Methods of earning some trickles of fuel by playing survival, arena, IZ F2P. We want them in the ecosystem playing the games. Something like the Fortnite Battlepass could work. Say it takes 1000 fuel to buy the Illuvium battlepass each "season". Leveling up your account can earn you some fuel (up to maybe 110-120% of your battlepass cost so say 1200 fuel rewards per season), along with some F2P goodies/cosmetics. So someone could buy 1000 fuel, then just play the games mostly F2P and earn enough fuel to renew battlepass plus a bit more, or they could spend it on paid runs. Getting XP to level up your account can come just from playing survival games, arena games, OW runs, IZ levels, daily quests... leading me to

  2. Daily incentives
    As far as daily incentive, I'm not talking about fuel, but things like daily quests, holiday events, social events, things that make the ecosystem feel alive and cared for.

cyan sparrow
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fortnite battle passes are gimmicks to keep players engaged because the game is stupid... giving people quests so they are not playing the game as intended? pathetic, as far as giving bucks , to get you hooked.. carrot and stick mentality.. COD does it too... they want you involved playing, to bring you back, not for something to do, BUT TO BRING YOU BACK PLAYING. so you dont go somewhere else... let me explain the logic.... its drugs... its crack, they are controlling you

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they want $10 for their battle pass.. they make it $20, they then give you $10 back completing the whole thing in cod points... like you are getting a deal... lol then they of course let you buy out if you didnt have the time to complete it... here's another scam.. DOUBLE XP.... keeping you playing, however, when another game is released or a school break time, they introduce double xp.. to keep you playing their game, so you dont go elsewhere... Example.. Diablo IV beta, DOUBLE XP.... PUBG new map.. DOUBLE XP... obvious as nite and day.... A good game doesnt need gimmicks to retain its player base

viral patrolBOT
#
DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.
cyan sparrow
#

why is there no more MMORPGs, cuz everything was streamlined to milk the game and the games became a waste of time, you could feel how they were milking you... just like Diablo Immortal phone game... developed around a cash system that destroys the fun before the game is even complete

#

warzone 2 numbers completely plummeting, they tried to control the flow, add in gimmicks to keep little jimmy not mad he got put down, changed this, forced that, put in super easy weapons like the RPK, all these stupid ideas and they forgot about their game... and now it sucks.. Point being.. MAKE A GOOD GAME. we dont need anything but a GOOD GAME

#

COD multiplayer, added insane aim assist, don't even code maps where there's little hitch points to dominate, heal and move on, lost art of map design, they turned it into a place to level weapons to bring into warzone, the game has become a complete joke and waste of time... what did this mean, to you, nothing, you didn't see the scam.... the result was no one played, no one wanted to unlock weapons.. what happened next.. a developer bug, that leveled your entire weapon in warzone playing just one round as long as you never reloaded.. funny you have 2 guns you can carry. The bug rumor got out all the quitters came back, ran 2 guns, leveled up one completely.... a gimmick to retain player base, cuz its a bad game. Now ask yourself why they did this, cuz they are sitting around trying to market the cash shop and other stupid things and not make a good game. This business model doesnt need to gimick people for cash, it needs transactions, nothing more

viral patrolBOT
#
DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.
cyan sparrow
#

fortnite battle pass is a great reason why we dont need a battle pass, fortnite battle royale is free, they need money, they coded in a bunch of crap to get a monthly sub with a bunch of gimmicks, to hold attention to people who dont know what to do... illuvium doesnt need gimmicks for cash, they is a point... collect illuvials, battle them, level them up, enhance your deck, play the survival mode and pvp for recognition, unlock skins via quests in the game, which i guess you dont realize is there.to this day noone even plays Fornite as intended... go in hack up some resources build a sniper tower or whatever and fight

#

they run, quick build and die... lol

fickle karma
#

can we chill out and have a discussion where both parties hear what the other has to say please @cyan sparrow ?

cyan sparrow
timber tiger
# cyan sparrow fortnite battle passes are gimmicks to keep players engaged because the game is ...

I don't think you're being very constructive. You're calling games people actually play stupid needlessly. YOU might think they're stupid. Plenty of people think they're fun.

The daily quests for Fortnite make the game better. When I play it naturally I find myself experiencing a survivorship bias, I will tend to go to the same couple of areas that I feel have given me the best start before. I get comfortable in those areas. The daily quests can reward you for going to normally out-of-the-way areas, you discover their layout (making you a better player should the storm force you in that area another time), you might find new content you haven't seen before like a hidden area or character you can interact with. In regards to Illuvium, they might play Overworld and say "hey that's a great game" but then not even try Survival or Arena because "meh PvP's not really my thing". But with a daily quest? Maybe they try survival and actually see the strategy and enjoy it. Then they're even more incentivized to go collect high tier illuvials in Overworld.

Yes things like battle passes that are designed to incentivize people for logging in are designed to incentivize people to log in. This is not something intended to take away from the quality of the game. You're saying "no don't do that make a great game and it will be fine" but what if we make a great game... and then also incentivize people to log in?

cyan sparrow
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why not block me like you did on twitter @fickle karma at least here you have a reason, other than jealousy

timber tiger
fickle karma
cyan sparrow
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zep has a bug up his ass, so he gonna make this a fight

timber tiger
cyan sparrow
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no, its your reading comprehention, you can only look down upon what you read, not take it for its value

timber tiger
fickle karma
cyan sparrow
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ok mr democrat, what points are WILD assumptions? and where am I incorrect?

#

please, facts

timber tiger
cyan sparrow
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you clearly did not even get my point.. I said, dont put shit in the game, that alters the game design and flow... thats the point, and i respecified it multiple times... yet here you are

timber tiger
cyan sparrow
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thats your problem... like i said not everyone has a reading comprehension of 20.0

#

its called streamlining boredom, taking the fun out of the game. i talk about on my youtube, gotta go to work, bye

fickle karma
cyan sparrow
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ill be waiting for those answers to wild assumptions,will peek in at lunch

#

maybe go have a bagel and reflect, seems the only riled up ones here are you

timber tiger
# cyan sparrow ok mr democrat, what points are WILD assumptions? and where am I incorrect?

"fortnite battle pass is a great reason why we dont need a battle pass, fortnite battle royale is free, they need money, they coded in a bunch of crap to get a monthly sub with a bunch of gimmicks, to hold attention to people who dont know what to do"

Battle pass can be played for free. They have a separate monthly sub program. Please understand what you're talking about.

I said: "I will tend to go to the same couple of areas that I feel have given me the best start before. I get comfortable in those areas."
You said: "i called his beloved game stupid... your points dont matter... the game was stupid designed.... they needed you to go to the other points of the map, because you never went there... end of story.. STUPID"

Your assumption being that the game is poorly designed because nobody goes there and so they made quests to get people to go to unused areas. Except maybe people do go there, but I personally was playing in a way that I didn't. Sometimes the quests are for places I do go sometimes for places I don't go, but it provides VARIETY to get people out of their bubble and challenge them.

"to this day noone even plays Fornite as intended... go in hack up some resources build a sniper tower or whatever and fight"
Wild assumption that you know better than anyone else that is actually playing the game what the intention was or continues to be. Zero introspection that maybe, just maybe, there's more than one option in gameplay and it was meant to be that way.

timber tiger
cyan sparrow
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so wait youu play the way i say, not going to certain areas... but my statement was a WILD ASSUMPTION, the jury has voted, YOU ARE WRONG

#

ignored bye

timber tiger
fickle karma
# cyan sparrow ill be waiting for those answers to wild assumptions,will peek in at lunch

Easy: you might have 20.0 reading comprehension, why not... but you definitely don't know what you're talking about and didn't even use Google before talking.
#1092824956611608637 message
You say here there's no more MMORPGs. this is one of the plenty of wild AND FALSE assumptions you made. sorry cba to answer to all of them. If you want to educate yourself and maybe get more credibility next time you want to jump in a discussion i'd recommend you DYOR on Wow, Wow classic, Aion, Final Fantasy XIV Daily Average users. As well as searching on google MMOs coming in 2023 or 2024.

timber tiger
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Wonder if it's possible to just get this guy muted on this thread and just have his posts removed, they're massively unconstructive and don't provide any ideas or solutions. (and since I can't put emotes on his posts I think he actually blocked me hahaha)

tidal gale
fickle karma
summer torrent
fickle karma
#

Here's the summary by ChatGPT :

The Discord discussions primarily revolve around improving the Free-to-Play (F2P) experience in Illuvium and addressing the onboarding process for new players. Key points include:

  1. Proposing a free rotating deck for PvP to make the game more accessible and create a sense of progression.
  2. Suggesting a system where collectors/investors provide Illuvials/shards to F2P players who in turn catch Illuvials for them in the Overworld, creating a mutually beneficial relationship.
  3. Addressing concerns about the value of higher stage Illuvials and their demand among collectors.
  4. Highlighting the importance of a frictionless onboarding process for casual gamers, as the current process is complex and can deter potential players.
  5. Emphasizing the significance of whales in generating revenue for the game, and catering to collectors as a target audience.
  6. Considering a Survival Mode Reward Deck system that allows F2P players to earn non-NFT cards for PvP, while still promoting NFT ownership benefits.

Participants acknowledge that these ideas should not be implemented before launch, but the discussion aims to explore ways to enhance player adoption, retention, and satisfaction.

cyan sparrow
#

how that for some popcorn munching

fickle karma
#

btw we're trying to have a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion here about IDEAS to be implemented FURTHER in the dev process to enhance the F2P experience. If all you have to bring to the discussion is FALSE "facts" or personal attacks because you're pissed that i blocked you on twitter, please just don't type here anymore.

tidal gale
karmic helm
fickle karma
#

i copy pasted everything (excluding the toxic posts) and then at the end said: please summarize all the discussions i copy-pasted here
and ChatGPT did the job

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@karmic helm could you pin the summary please?

tidal gale
#

I posted the following idea already in another channel, but will add it here again to keep them all in one place:

#

Maybe IL:Z land ownership could become a subscription based buying process, where players pay 1-5 USD per month until they own a basic Tier 0.5 land, which would be between the existing T0 and T1.

They would earn from fuel, experience real ownership in a game and can use the fuel in our other games.

Land ownership is a concept well known to everyone and since it isn’t sold as easy as a token it keeps players invested in our universe.

It might also be better than the usual battle pass or game subscription, since they actually own something at the end of their subscription and it fits better into our existing economic model.

Of course we would create the economy for new T0.5 land in such a way that existing land holders would benefit from the subscription fees and other earnings from a T0.5 to not dilute their OG land earnings.

Even small revenue from a IL:Z T0.5 land will be experienced as an improvement to the existing city builder games, which are really just games and not a meta verse land game with real income potential.

fickle karma
# tidal gale I posted the following idea already in another channel, but will add it here aga...

The idea sounds interesting, and i can see the intent behind to improve retention. But reading it raises a few concerns on me that maybe you'll be able to adress.

  1. Floor market of T1 land is 0.3 Eth (roughly 550$) and the jump to T2 land it's 0.7Eth (about 1400$) so somewhere between double and triple the price of T1. If the player pays their 5$ subscription for an entire year, they spent 60$. To make that T0.5 land "fair" for the land owners who already invested and not risk an entire land market crash the T0.5 land would need to cost around 200$ so let's say 3years of subscription.

  2. Well 3 years of subscription seems way too much for people (specially from the mainstream) to commit to it. Nowadays people switch very quickly from a game to another and tend to forget some in the process, they are aware of that and that's why they wouldn't make such a commitment.

  3. With all of these said it seems like the solution could then become to just change the price of the subscription to let's say 20$/month and after a year of subscription they own their land, but that would create friction considering they most likely won't make that money back per month. So they have to calc revenue over 2-3 or even 4 years to get their money back, and most gamers really just can't be bothered for that.

Remember that most people don't want to make calcs or think about revenue on their spare time. they watch stupid content on social media and play easy to access games (like city builders or candy crush) to free their minds from the daily stress and i don't think this idea would work the way you propose it but I think maybe it's worth to dig in that direction to maybe improve that idea to a reasonable state or take some of the discussions around that idea to create a totally new one.

karmic helm
tidal gale
tidal gale
#

@fickle karma @ocean aspen

Land and fuel sale to F2P players by referral

Main Idea

Let's make these assumptions first:

*Land is a concept well known to all people and highly sought after - even by those, who usually wouldn’t invest in stocks, crypto etc and is usually kept for the long term compared to tokens or stocks.

Mainstream F2P players should not be forced to make a huge upfront payment to join the Illuvium economy, they should be able to earn their way in with small increments or ideally with none of their own money involved at all.

The DAO should be interested in increasing land ownership and player base at the same time.

New players should come to Illuvium by some sort of referral. They need to hear about Illuvium and be convinced to join one way or the other. The best method is referral from someone they trust.*

We should therefore try to combine land sale and new player acquisition with a referral system into a single solution based upon open market principles.

This is what the following solution is about:

Summary

Let’s assume the DAO will never again auction new land, the current 20.000 plots of land will basically be the only OG land ever in existence.

New land would come on the market instead from existing OG land owners, because the DAO would allow them to create new parcels of land from the borders of their existing land. Basically creating a new type of Mega City in the confines of an existing plot (more on that later).

These new lands are basically T0 with no earning capabilities, but since they are derived from and owned by a OG plot and can be given to new players by the way of a referral system, I would call them a T0.5.

The OG land holder would try to find new owners for these T0.5 plots (more on that later) and encourage them to play IL:Z in a F2P manner with credits paid for in fiat money (more on that later) .

The money these new F2P players spend on their T0.5 plots will go to the DAO, with a certain percentage to the OG land owner e.g. in the form of additional credits.

The OG land would basically earn credits from its T0.5 plots and not just fuel from resources.

The more the new T0.5 owners spend on their land, the more the OG owner makes and is therefore incentivized to grow and keep them.

Available plot numbers would grow organically by demand for T0.5 IL:Z land from new F2P players.

F2P T0.5 owners can of course also find their own referrals and give them T0.5 lands created from their own T0.5 land and a flywheel effect sets in and the OG Mega City grows and grows ...

If an OG land owner doesn’t want to create new land (new type of Mega City) this way then this is ok, too. They can expect the same amount of earnings from fuel produced by their land resources as if nothing had changed.

Except that they will most likely earn more money now, because the new T0.5 land and referral system has brought many new players into Illuvium and the pie has grown for everyone.

Details

#

New land from OG land owners

Let’s say an OG land owner could create new land plots from an existing OG plot, by basically creating a new type of Mega City in the confines of an existing plot.

For example 8 new land plots can be created from 1 OG plot by dividing the OG land into 9 cells. The one in the middle becomes the existing OG land, the 8 around are the new T0.5 plots.

For each new T0.5 plot a referral code is generated.

A new IL:Z player recruited by the OG owner can then enter the referral code in IL:Z and will automatically get the T0.5 land assigned.

This referral system links lands in a hierarchy/tree based structure and can be thought of as a kind of subscription, in which new land holders subscribe to existing land holders.

F2P players and micro transactions

The F2P IL:Z players can now use their mobile payment solution (credits with fiat money) to pay for building construction speed up, buy fuel for the Overworld etc..

This is something they are already used to from other city builders and they can do it in whatever increments they like and can afford.

At this point they are still F2P players, but they become more useful to the OG owner, the more they spend and might get e.g. fuel discounts from the OG owner etc to increase further spending.

F2P players growing into ownership and expanding our economic base

F2P T0.5 owners can of course find their own referrals and give them T0.5 lands subdivided from their own T0.5 land and then earn credits from these new T0.5 lands.

F2P players would basically grow slowly into land moguls and investors, by increasing the number of their own referrals and encouraging them to actually spend money on their T0.5.

Another way to look at it: T0.5 F2P players earn themselves into a almost T1-5 equivalent land over time in a piecemeal fashion and with no upfront cost.

All they need to do is find new players and give them T0.5 lands, this is their way to become a valuable member of our economy. OG land holders had to pay for their land in an auction, T0.5 land holders "pay" by bringing in new economy members, which only takes time and some effort.

They grow their own free T0.5 into a real investment over time.

Investment grade land will therefore grow organically with new players coming into the meta verse. All driven by the greediness for money and desire for fun from land holders.

Fuel sale and land ownership

When T0.5 owners buy fuel for play in the Overworld or any other expenses paid in fiat, will be credited to their T0.5 lands (maybe they could also buy fuel directly in the marketplace in IL:Z in order to gamify it even further).

This way the OG land would get its cut from the money spent on its T0.5 subdivision/mega city lands.

The fuel a T0.5 produces from its resources can not be sold on the marketplace like in a T1-5, this would obviously crash the fuel economy.

But we could still allow them to sell this fuel, e.g with the requirement to speed up the fuel selling action in the IL:Z marketplace with credits (paid in fiat or earned from its T0.5 lands).

Even small revenue from a IL:Z T0.5 land will be experienced by F2P players as an improvement to the existing city builder games, which are really just games and not a meta verse land game with real income potential.

tidal gale
#

Additional Ideas

We could visualize this new type of Mega City as skyscrapers around your main land, with each floor displaying a level in the land referral tree. You can then watch your city grow to the skies with each new referral brought in by one of your referrals etc.

With enough re-referrals you can grow the value of a plot to almost astronomically high numbers, but a property tax will ensure that the DAO has enough money to create some sort of social capitalism and reduce the potential Ponzi scheme effect.

A IL:Z player without a referral code (maybe just found IL:Z in the app store) will get a random T0.5 from a random owner assigned. The current T0 is no longer needed. This adds another nice earnings aspect for land owners, who don't want to actively look for referrals.

Land holders can also be thought of as guild leaders, with guild members being the referrals they have brought in.

The interests of the DAO, the OG land holders, the F2P players and the ILV stakers are more aligned than without this open market solution. It is better than voting over OG land increases or fuel percentages.

rare fern
# tidal gale <@412869293446004736> <@144974777549848576> **Land and fuel sale to F2P player...

I'll try not to sound too negative, but there's some issues with this idea in my opinion.

It sounds like it would generate a lot of backend overhead if people go crazy on referrals and bring in 50-100 new players on a single plot.

It would also cause serious issues with moving lands between wallets:
Say the OG wants to sell his land with 50+ referral plots in order to obtain a higher tier land to play on. Those referral plots would then effectively be lost to that player, or cause major issues with re-binding to the new land (say, different region).
Wouldn't it be better to link referrals to the actual wallet/account of the OG player?

Also, F2P will (when the game goes into open beta) get access to a T0 land where they will be able to spend money for credits. Why add another complicated system on top of that? (I also don't see any incentive in your description for the T0.5 to spend credits, there doesn't seem to be anything that lets them generate income to "grow into" landowners. Also referral referrals sounds a whole lot like a pyramid scheme.)

tidal gale
# rare fern I'll try not to sound too negative, but there's some issues with this idea in my...

Thanks for your feedback.

About the backend work or overhead I don't know too much.

Moving referrals to a new OG plot seems possible, although I don't see a need for that, since you could just buy that additional plot and keep the existing. A plot with so many referrals would be quite valuable and you either sell it for money or keep it.

The intention behind this idea is to bring new F2P players into Illuvium with a gamified (land and city builder) referral system. There is another idea about Referral Marketing in the ideas section. I basically just combined this with land ownership. #1075074458349486132 message

In regards to Pyramid schemes: Basically the whole real world economy works with pyramid schemes and referral systems, what we don't want is a Ponzi scheme.

T0.5 would spend fiat money like in any other F2P app with micro transactions. I also mentioned that they could buy fuel with credits for further use in the Overworld. Just look at Clash of Clans. All the money spent as in-app purchases that goes to the game company, would go to the land owners in the referral hierarchy and of course a good percentage to the DAO in Iluvium's case.

rare fern
# tidal gale Thanks for your feedback. About the backend work or overhead I don't know too m...

Well, I do like the general idea. As it would give a little more value to anyone already holding land that want their friends/followers/subscribers to try out the game.
There might just need to be a little more incentive for the referrals (besides getting referrals of their own) for this to have the desired effect.

Also, (might not be an issue, but it would bug me a lot) what to do about "abandoned" T0,5 plots. Would the OG have any sort of power to remove/replace these if the player "owning" it stops playing?

tidal gale
# rare fern Well, I do like the general idea. As it would give a little more value to anyone...

Exactly, this was my initial motivation, since I want to bring in my own friends and I could either give them a T1, but that would be quite expensive for me 😄, or I could "give" them a T0, but then they wouldn't really be a part of the lluvium economy either and have no upgrade path other than to pay for a full T1 themselves.

With a T0.5 they can decide how much they want to spend on credits or encourage their own friends to get their T0.5s from them and if these friends become paying Illuvium players, the T0.5 starts to earn money. This wouldn't work with a T0.

They wouldn't feel forced to spend, since a T0.5 has the earnings potential, but no requirement to spend. It is very important that there is no initial investment needed, they should not feel trapped, fear a cash grab or Ponzi scheme.

They have time to play with their T0.5 and when they like Illuvium, they will tell their friends, give them a T0.5 subdivided from their plot and might also spend their own money on their T0.5.

This starts the money inflow in the chain/tree of referrals and it starts to bring in money for everyone up-chain, the DAO and if we want, a small percentage might even go to lands downstream as long as they are actively spending money (we need to be careful with botting).

"Abandoned" plots are not a problem, since the money earned from downstream owners will be distributed to all lands upstream automatically (on chain contract), there is no missing link or dangling subtree.

All the money accumulating on a land that is lost (private key lost, stops playing etc.) would be in the form of credits only. Someone owning that land would need to use these credits or exchange them for fuel etc.. If this doesn't happen, they would basically be burned and taken out of circulation. Although there could be a mechanism by which unused credits become distributed to the rest of the lands after some time.

In regards to incentives: There could be leaderboards for the most referrals a land owner has brought in, additional rewards e.g. Mega D1SKs etc.. We could also give T2-5 owners higher percentages when earning from their T0.5 plots.

But just the fact that every OG land owner could start their Mega City by handing out T0.5s from within the existing plot could be incentive enough. Note, that Mega City owners in the current sense (with multiple OG plots) can still have that type of Mega City.

tidal gale
fickle karma
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Sorry just took the time to read the summary and again I would be pretty concerned if this was to be proposed.
Changing the rules of acquisition for land so drastically might make the actual owners quite happy because of the speculation around their price suddenly going up... but anyone joining the project later has to either pay a premium or engage into this long and complicated system...

I don't believe that a new ponzi is what we are trying to build here. And it's apparently not your intent, but having the "OG landowners" generating what other people will need to even enter the IZ economy IS a ponzi scheme. The ones joining later will end up paying for the benefits of the 1st ones. That's exactly what Axie had with their breeding.

tidal gale
# fickle karma Sorry just took the time to read the summary and again I would be pretty concern...

If I understand you correctly, you don't want the first investors/land owners to benefit from being first.

This is different from a Ponzi:

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays existing investors with funds collected from new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often promise to invest your money and generate high returns with little or no risk. But in many Ponzi schemes, the fraudsters do not invest the money.

In my model, the money a player spends is distributed to land owners, stakers and the DAO. There is no promise that we invest the money a player spends.

But if we want to even avoid benefiting from being earlier, don't we have to change almost all of Illuvium?

Whoever bought ILV in the beginning, bought OG land when it was first auctioned or bought Illuvitars Wave 1 when it was still sold, could be accused of benefiting from whoever comes later.

When we look at IL:Z specifically, the way it currently work is this: You have to buy land from a OG owner or play IL:Z for free. The wall to enter the real IL:Z economy is at least $500 for a T1 land at the moment. With my solution it would be $0.

And most importantly: We can adjust how much the land holders benefit directly and what goes to the DAO and ILV stakers with just a few parameters.

Additionally my solution would enable land ownership for everyone, currently it is capped at 20.000/100.000.

And if the DAO still wants to auction the additional 80.000 plots of land: We can still do this.

What matters most in my opinion is how much paying customers we can acquire and how long we can keep them in our meta verse.

Maybe you could read the rest of my idea?

tidal gale
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I know everyone is busy, but I would really be interested in what you think @ocean aspen since we have discussed T0.5 ideas before.

fickle karma
tidal gale
ocean aspen
# tidal gale I know everyone is busy, but I would really be interested in what you think <@14...

In a lot of ways, this is what I think of as a "win more" mechanic. I really like the idea of a referral program, but I'm not a huge fan of land owners having exclusive rights over creating future land, and I really dislike limiting the ability for the DAO to create and sell more plots of land in the future by committing us to 20k. I realize there are trading fees etc. for land, and that bringing new IL:Z players in by referral would be positive.

I'm in favour of a referral program, and in favour of an implementation of land that allows further scalability, but not in favour of the specifics of this idea.

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As far as alternatives go, I'd prefer a solution where the DAO sells piecemeal land plots (T0.5 or whatever other name) via MTX. That could be parallel to T1-T5 land (i.e. not existing in the same land map) and could effectively be unbounded. It would be important to make the maximum production of T0.5 land financially inferior to T1-T5 land (based on the player's investment), but not by a massive margin.

I will note that my solution has some issues as well.

tidal gale
ocean aspen
tidal gale
# ocean aspen In a lot of ways, this is what I think of as a "win more" mechanic. I really lik...

In general I would say, no solution should prevent another solution from being implemented, but each solution should be sound and work as intended.

And maybe we don't need any solution at all, because so many new players buy so much fuel that we will never think about marketing to new players, but how we can scale. This is what happened to Axie.

I am just trying to find the holes and problems in my solution and will then try to improve it, that's why I am mostly interested in feedback. Maybe my solution doesn't work, but bits or pieces could be reused ...

In regards to my specific solution:

We can set the parameters in such a way, that OG land owners would not benefit financially from their referral T0.5 lands at all, or just to a very small degree, and most or all money would go to the DAO and ILV stakers. Then there would be no "win more" at all.

OG land holders could still compete via a leaderboard on the number of referrals brought in and maybe get rewards this way, should the DAO be concerned that land holders get an unfair advantage over ILV stakers.

The DAO could also give T0.5 lands to everyone for free (which already happens with my solution in case you don't have a OG land), which would address your concern in regards to only OG land holders being able to create new land.

The best solution would be one that includes all the different ways land can be given or sold to new players, without being overly complex, by finding just one mechanic that encompasses all different styles of land sales.

The DAO could then vote on parameters, e.g. 80.000 new OG plots sold by auction, 500.000 additional T0.5 plots also auctioned, but paid for in micro transactions or other sales terms, instalments etc. and a 1% earnings percentage to existing land holders for any new referral they bring in.

In the end it comes down to Aaron to decide what works and can actually be implemented.

I am more looking at it from a Illuvium fan perspective, which means I really want to go to my friends, install IL:Z on their mobile phone and then give them a piece of land that makes them a full member of our Illuvium universe right at the beginning with $0 investment.

I don't want to tell them, that they can either play for free on a T0 and that they would have to start over again on a T1 for real earnings and that it costs e.g $250. They will ask, why they would need to spend $250.

All I can tell them is that it might become more valuable and that they might be able to earn from it.

Even in small micro transaction increments it would feel like paying off a credit for a piece of real estate, unless we consider any credit they buy and e.g. use to speed up building construction as a kind of downpayment towards owning the land.

But then existing land owners will fear that these new lands dilute their OG lands and haven't paid enough to justify earning from fuel etc. I don't know how to calculate all of this and not having everyone get the feeling of a bad deal.

This is what @fickle karma meant with his first comment above. They would need to think as investors right from the start and mainstream, especially gamers, isn't prepared for that and smells a cash grab.

With my solution we would separate OG lands - that continue to earn from producing fuel from resources on their land (a kind of artificial income) - from new T0.5 lands that earn from bringing in new referrals to all of Illuvium.

Two separate economies. In the first you have to think as an investor, in the later you think in terms of circle of friends, fun, gaming, city builder etc. and earnings are just a second thought.

fickle karma
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I think the 3 main flaws in your proposal are:

  1. The absolute NEED for the OG owners to generate the new lands.
  2. The referral idea that the way you propose it looks like the pyramidal process of many low reputation businesses that are even often quite scammy.
  3. Land was always supposed to be 100k plots... changing that rn is unfair for the people that didn't have the liquidity to buy land or that wanted to wait the second batch for X or Y reason.

Those 2 points are major turn-offs for a gamer even more than GameFi.

viral patrolBOT
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fickle karma
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There are better ways to implement referral links: ie. you can make that when a player invites another one to ILV using his code, the "inviter" gets like let's say 2-3% of the fuel that his friend buys everytime he buys.

Or litterally discounts on the 1st fuel buy for some referral codes given to big influencers. (only once per wallet/account)

hasty dawn
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I like the idea of F2P in I:Z leading to P2E. But I'm not sure what I am thinking is the same as others.

Similar to cities - skylines where you are able to purchase expansions on your buildable land... maybe this only becomes how F2P works after the DAO sees a need for more land.

As F2P you start off in a place where you can not harvest fuel or scan for illuvials.

Expansions surrounding your land you can purchase. Some of these would be "premium" and have a fuel site (less productive than t1) or have the ability to scan for illuvials (with a lower % chance). These premium expansion sites would cost fuel.

The cost of these expansions would be more in total than purchasing the equivalent in t1-4 land but could become as productive with many microtransactions.

Perhaps once the F2P plot becomes fuel generating it takes 1 off the 100,000 max and becomes an NFT you can trade.

.... Reading back on Blickter's idea:#1023650034593570917 message

I think his idea is better (I probably got most of the ideas from that) just simpler with upgrades instead of land expansion.

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tidal gale
tidal gale
tidal gale
# fickle karma I think the 3 main flaws in your proposal are: 1. The absolute NEED for the OG ...

Does this address your issues?

  • The 20.000/100.000 investment grade T1-T5 lands should stay as promised. No changes required.

  • Unbounded new investment grade land (Blickter’s idea) would have to draw from another fuel pool to avoid conflicts of interest with T1-5 holders and quickly becomes a difficult financial product that IMO is unsuitable to onboard mainstream gamers. This idea therefore won’t focus on that type of land.

  • Existing Illuvium accounts will get a T0.5 airdropped to their account. Who doesn’t like airdrops? These T0.5s are the top/root of a potential referral tree. There is no need for a T1-T5 to participate in this referral system and a T1-T5 owner has no advantages when it comes to referrals compared to T0.5 owners. But a T1-T5 can start a referral like a T0.5. A completely level playing field.

  • Everyone should get a free T0.5 land when creating an Illuvium account for the first time, which could be hooked up (as a referral) randomly to another land (this adds another reward element to existing T0.5 land owners) or to the land with the referral code when used. This will be seen as a nice gift to all newcomers. They get a land for free just for creating an account with us and will install IL:Z, even if only e.g. Arena was their main interest initially.

  • When you have started with a T0.5 and acquired many referrals and you buy a T1-5 later, we can allow you to move the referrals to your new investment grade land.

  • To avoid being seen as scammy there are no income or earnings elements for a T0.5 (we can turn on the fee switch later, see UniSwap), but there are rewards like seeing your Referral Mega City grow in IL:Z, leaderboards, ILV oder D1SKs for every 100 new referrals that spent at least $5 …

  • Land and Referrals should be tied IMO, because it fits into the city builder idea e.g. Mega Cities for every IL:Z player with skyscrapers that grow with your number of re-/referrals and show the amount spent by your referrals etc. and land ownership is a good argument when trying to find new players anyway.

  • We should also gamify as much as we can using our existing games and IL:Z as our only mobile app would be perfect to gamify a referral system. Especially since it is so addictive and can easily compete with existing mobile city builders when it comes to graphics and sound. When we add reward elements (and maybe earnings later on) for bringing in new players we can differentiate from mainstream games and make it even better.

  • There could be other referral methods e.g. gifting a D1SK via referral code and therefore the referral mechanics should be account based and not land based.

viral patrolBOT
#
DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.
tidal gale
ocean aspen
# tidal gale Does this address your issues? - The 20.000/100.000 investment grade T1-T5 land...

I just need to clarify that I wasn't talking about a separate fuel pool. I'm talking about the overall land map. Currently, the 20k plots that exist are clustered and distributed across the overall land map. Future sales would fill in the gaps. Sub-T1 plots of land would need to exist on a separate land map (or not on a map at all) so as to not interfere with the current map. This has nothing to do with Fuel pools.

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I'm genuinely curious if my point got missed, your paraphrase implies that I'm talking about something that I never mentioned. There are no difficult financial products involved.

My ideal solution would be to have IL:Z as a F2P game, where people are building up their plot and gathering resources. Through MTX, they could incrementally buy into a T0.5 plot (over the course of X transactions). That plot would generate increasing amounts of Fuel (and potentially Blueprints) up to a cap. The cap would be lower than T1 land. Such a model is parallel to existing mobile gaming models, and I believe it would be appropriate to onboard mainstream gamers.

There are challenges to such a solution. Balancing the amount of Fuel that T0.5 plots output overall would be a big one. That could be solved by a distributive model (something like all T0.5 land produces 1% of overall Fuel).

The main issue I have with your original idea is the source of T0.5 plots. I don't like OG land owners being the sole beneficiary of T0.5 plots, or the only way to create plots lying with those owners. I say that as a land owner. I think it's awkward and disproportionately benefits those land owners, who will already be driving Fuel production on game launch. It would be giving substantially more value to land owners than the original premise of land, at the cost of ILV stakers (the cost being that the DAO could directly create and sell T0.5 plots).

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I do think referrals have a place, I just don't think it's a good solution for the referral program to be "I own land, now you get a land because I own land.".

That limits the scope of a referral program to friends of land owners.

tidal gale
# ocean aspen I'm genuinely curious if my point got missed, your paraphrase implies that I'm t...

I am not against your idea, I actually had a similar one and we both discussed it to some length.

When I said fuel pool, I was actually thinking "distributive model" e.g. another 1% of overall fuel in parallel to the percentage promised to OG lands.

But I want to keep it separate from the land/referral idea, just for the sake of clarity. I am not against one or the other solution. I just don't want to get into discussions over who prefers or dislikes this or that solution ...

And I still believe these solutions differ at their core, because one is a gamified financial product (you spend money now (even with increments) to increase fuel production/income in the future AND to keep that income flow forever and therefore needs to be limited in land numbers).

Whereas the main aspect of this new idea is actually extending land ownership to everyone through a referral method and these lands don't earn from selling fuel (although there are ways I mentioned before), they "produce" new referred players (living in skyscrapers on your land) and get rewards.

Again, I am just mentioning this to clarify what this new idea is about, not to discredit your solution and it is always good to compare solutions.

Since you mentioned the source of the referral plots. Did you see this section from my feedback above?

Existing Illuvium accounts will get a T0.5 airdropped to their account. Who doesn’t like airdrops? These T0.5s are the top/root of a potential referral tree. There is no need for a T1-T5 to participate in this referral system and a T1-T5 owner has no advantages when it comes to referrals compared to T0.5 owners. But a T1-T5 can start a referral like a T0.5. A completely level playing field.

  • Everyone should get a free T0.5 land when creating an Illuvium account for the first time, which could be hooked up randomly to another land (this adds another reward element to existing T0.5 land owners) or to the land with the referral code when used. This will be seen as a nice gift to all newcomers. They get a land for free just for creating an account with us and will install IL:Z, even if only e.g. Arena was their main interest initially.

  • There could be other referral methods e.g. gifting a D1SK via referral code and therefore the referral mechanics should be account based and not land based.

fickle karma
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Make Onboarding easier/Better F2P experience - Community Brainstorm

shy wigeon