Illuvitar burning and bonding incentivization

[quiet wind]

Short idea:
What if there was a line of Illuvitars which could only be obtained by burning others which are bonded with accessories?

Problem:
Right now some of the low tier Illuvials feels meaningless/valueless even if they are needed in some of the collections. And probably this will be even more felt once as the supply keeps growing. Also bonding is not incentivized enough and this makes many of the accessories feel like only taking up space in the wallet.

So what if we introduce burning and incentivize bonding?

Lets say a specific tier 4 and 5 Illuvitar could be obtained only if one burns at least 100 Illuvitars. The chances would be higher for tier 4 in case of burning 100 exactly. But if one burns more, chances could grow to get even a tier 5. If one burns 1000 Illuvitar it could grant a guaranteed tier 5 holo.

Additionally, bonding is something not incentivized enough in my opinion, so probably burning could require an Illuvitar bonded with accessories (fully or partially depending how the math works out) which would add some value to even such things like the clown noses.

Numbers are just some example, can be tweaked as needed. But if we look at the floor price now, around 4-5 USD, actually this could already be reasonable and would add some extra meaning to the floor illuvials and probably people could be more happy with their unlucky disk openings as well as those nfts would have a purpose as well.

Advantage:
Adding value to low tier NFTs, Increasing volume on marketplace. Would make a very interesting meta game as well buying up floor Illuvials and burn them and that would also boost nicely the continuous buying pressure on the ongoing sales due to the burning and lower circulation.

Edit: probably using power level of all burnt Illuvitars vs just the number of them when deciding on chance of pulling a new tier 4 or tier 5 Illuvitar would be a great way of giving value to accessories without explicitly requiring bonding.

[broken swallow]

I'm on a similar thought, but more like the upgrade system present in Overworld. It would be interesting if one could burn some number of illuvitars of the same line/stage for a chance to reroll/upgrade background/power level/holo status etc.

[quiet wind]

It sounds pretty cool, though the problem I see with this approach is that it changes the rarity of that given line and could dilute different Illuvials.. For example all could end up holos given enough rerolls/upgrades and suddenly holos wouldn't even be rare, there would be many of them.

Hence I thought would be easier to burn for a completely new Illuvitar line, one which is not yet exists, and then rarities would remain consistent.

The new Illuvitar could be valuable due to its tier (4 or 5) but still would be random what exactly one gets as there would be a similar distribution as we now get when we open up disks. Could get a holo5 if lucky (or burn more for higher chance) but can still end up with a less powerful tier 4 as well depending on luck for some extent.

[spring grove]

Give me an incentive to buy up floor illuvitars once the standard sale is finished. For example...burn 20 atlas, get a atlast emote

sprinkle in more functionality around your future titles, and I think it will help buoy after market sales

[timber terrace]

Completely disagree with burning illuvitars of this wave.

While i understand that youd want to burn the trashy Accessories, like the clown nose or dog collar, illuvials should never be burned because they will become rare over time anyways.

Axolotl illuvials will néver be sold again. While they are super common right now, you will be able to lose them to others at a later date in a quite likely scenario. 100K Atlas could be obtained after 600K D1sks are opened. When 100K Atlas are minted, you would only require 33K players to have an interest for them to sell them out.

What if there are 2M players in 1-5 years. Wont 1/60 be interested in getting all three Atlas? What if the Acolotl collection is awesome. Wont people go ham over an Atlas, the flagship Illuvial?

While i took Atlas as an obvious example, the same holds true for Kukka, Archie and other T1 Stage 1 illuvials.

Honestly the thought that Illuvitar portraits are over-minted is silly to me. You would only prevent people from completing their collection game just because of greed.

[cyan otter]

Exactly what Garf is saying - this is the start of a collection game - The goal was to have many illuvitars in ciruclation. The game must remain open to future participants in a meaningful way. If we start burning supply, yes it becomes more scarce, but also sort of 'breaks' the game.

[signal stratus]

I see no reason why illuvitars should be burned also

when non-alpha illuvitars come out there are 3 reasons to buy them:
-to get one and use it as a PFP
-to get many and try completing as much of the album as you can (maybe sell doubles to help you buy off secondary some of those you cant find)
-to hold, trade or collect, either due to speculating on their future value or because you like having a lot of the things you collect
-to trade (whether short term

because these are the ways that illuvitars can be used, there is no reason why illuvitars should be burned, those just looking for a PFP just get the one they want, those looking to complete the album can open packs and/or buy on secondary, and those trading may over buy and floor the market but demand and price will readjust, thats how trading works, its not an issue its just how free markets behave and revaluateand eventually mature

[quiet wind]

Thanks @timber terrace @cyan otter @signal stratus all of you taking the time getting back to me, really appreciate it!

It seems that burning is against the ethos of Illuvitars and in one hand I completely get it.

But let me add 2 remarks:

1, On the supply side of things:
Isn’t the quantity will be decided by supply and demand and if supply is uncapped, than it will be decided by demand?

Lets say if there is a demand for 300k Illuvitars in the first wave, it doesn’t matter if you mint 300k or mint 350k and burn 50k, it is the same 300k supply at the end of the day.

The only thing changes is the ratio of the Illuvitars, so actually contrary to @timber terrace point, wouldn’t there be relatively more Atlas and lines what people like and relatively less Lynx if burning is on?

Obviously some caps could be introduced to not to “destroy” a whole line, but as @signal stratus said it, free market does its thing. If one thing becomes rarer, people would stop burning and there will be an equilibrium somewhere.

2,On the incentives:
Personal experience: I popped a lot Mega Alphas with the goal of completing wave 1. I thought it will be fun journey to trade my way there even if I miss some rarer Illuvitars. I was wrong. It turns out to be impossible to trade for wave completion as prices plummeted so much for everything apart rare tier 5s. One would have to sell like 100 average Illuvitars to get a Rhamphyre.

So my choices:
-I could sell my common Illuvitars on a huge loss, but what is the point?
-I can trade them for other common Illuvitars but what is the point, it won’t get me to wave 1 completion goal.
-I can dilute my Alpha collection with non alphas, but I didn’t buy alphas for that.
-Or just forget about my Alphas and check back in few month

The above promoted me to come up with an idea to find some new objectives as I think I might not be the only one feeling this way, but I see that burning would be very controversial.

[timber terrace]

Ill just go over 1. The amount of illuvitars in wave 1 will likely be incredibly low in comparison to later waves because of its weird timing.

Illuvitars will be sold during a set period of time which will determine their supply. The issue is that we are in a bear market, there is no hyped product yet, marketing hasnt reached mainstream yet, and it is a PFP collection that people hate at the current point in time.

All these reasons make that demand is incredibly low at this time. My point is that demand will skyrocket when all of these negative aspects are gone.
The bear market isnt forever. Illuvium will probably release a product. With a product, our audience will 10x due to mainstream involvement. Within the product, the collection rewards will become more clear, making the illuvitars more than a PFP.

"Lets say if there is demand for 300K illuvitars in the first sale"

It doesnt matter what the demand is now. What matters is the demand in 9 months. When 500 thousand players are playing and all of them would like to finish the Atlas collection, the wave 1 prices will skyrocket. Because with 300K regular Packs sold, you would only have ~50K atlas. And those are spread out over the expressions. Youd only have 250 holo brawlers on avarage!!

Dont look at this wave as an oversale. We are potentially minting barely a tenth of future demand. So if demand will skyrocket in the upcoming months, why then would the DAO want to burn anything? There could be plenty of demand anyways. Just not now, as people can still mint these portraits and nobody actually wants them because they have no usecase.
When they do, i bet you will be able to trade your wave 1s for wave 2s without issue.

I do would like to burn clown noses because those come back every wave. But T1-T5 illuvial portraits shouldnt be touched.

And I would like to ask @cyan otter do you think people will become downcast when they realise that wave 1 Illuvitars are so under-minted that they cant finish the collections?
I know that collections wont make the biggest impact on the game but (with random numbers):
If illuvium hits 1M players and only 1/10 can finish the axolotl collection, wouldnt that be sad? That means only 1/700 can finish a Squid collection.

Wouldnt you get a bunch of sad people? Is that a good thing? Maybe im just overreacting but id argue it could be bad :p

[crystal marlin]

Agreed they should not be burned the supply is low already considering the use of Illuvitars and Illuvium’s goals of millions of active players.

[crystal marlin]

There are so many collections they can finish though.

[timber terrace]

Yeah but so many is not all of them :] true collector vibes!!!

[crystal marlin]

I personally think it’s ok if some goals are almost unattainable. Makes the achievement feel so much better.

[quiet wind]

Few things I could argue with I think:

"It doesnt matter what the demand is now. What matters is the demand in 9 months"
Wave 1 lasts 3 months I thought, so it does matter what the demand is now for those, and less so matters what will be in 9 month as people cannot do anything about it than.

*"Dont look at this wave as an oversale" *
Well, I look how the prices move on the Illuvitars vs the sale price (down), economically speaking it is an oversale in my opinion.

"i bet you will be able to trade your wave 1s for wave 2s without issue."
It is not a usecase for alphas bc they were 5x expensive.

I do understand by the way the vison that if and when players and demand comes in, it will be a very very low supply. But right now alpha disks are way overpriced with no visual distinction from non alphas, and compared to their price the supply gonna be out of whack once standard disks gonna be minted.

[timber terrace]

And instead of aiming to burn things, I propose you take full advantage of these out of whack supply rates. 😏

Do understand that there will be a wave two alpha sale. So you could trade alpha for alpha.

Stack up on those very cheap Alpha Atlas when the regulars come out. Then in 9 months the price may go up and you could potentially sell them for premium

[quiet wind]

For some reason I thought alphas are just the first batch, good to know there are more coming, thanks.

I do understand once again the feelings against burning, it was just an idea.

[timber terrace]

I totally agree that prices are pathetically low right now. We all wantef to flip our Holo T3 and T4s for massive profit. But it wont happen sadly. All we can do is hodl and not let our minds waver 😄

[quiet wind]

But @timber terrace do tell me if you think it is all right that people in alpha way got kind of rekt?! The reason for my thinking about such idea as burning was the reason how down bad we will be after standard disks are out....

[quiet wind]

I was ok even loosing some money but having fun collecting. My problem is loosing lot of money and not having fun. And some things were not clearly communicated, like the alpha tag not visible....

[timber terrace]

This is actually being discussed in #📰〕governance-news and an IIP will likely be pushed through where this becomes a thing.

But yes I totally feel you. I hoped we would sell out in 50 seconds and i could sell one of my Alphas for like 1 Eth. But it all comes down to hodling more haha

[quiet wind]

Just reading upon it, thanks. Hope it goes through, though seen some people saying solutions where it is not on the blockchain which is so weird when we are at a blockchain game. Hope they find something visual to be put on chain actually.

[dreamy bone]

I agree with @quiet wind, it does matter what the demand is, not only in the future, but in the now as well. A successful sale is better not only for the community, but also for the Illuvium team. And things could be improved upon, the question is how. And while there is always risk in change, there is risk in not changing as well...

[eager dawn]

i think that burning illuvials is a rushed opinion right now. we don't know what will happen in future, and what will demand for these wave 1 illuvials be.
But i do think that accessories could be burned. They will be introduced in market with every disk sold. In every wave. So lowest/lower tier ones will definately oversature market. i know i won't use them and by the end of wave 1 i will probably have several hundreds T1 S1 accessories that i won't be using anywhere (and it is 2 much drag to sell them on marketplace)
i haven't put much taught in this but it could go smth like this:
3x Plastic clown nose= 1x Fluffy clown nose
3x Fluffy clown nose= 1x Glowy clown nose
For higher tiers, some extra fee could be introduced to prevent overly minting rarest ones, and to keep prices in check.
it can be also possible to upgrade tiers:
3x (or 5x or whatever) Glowy clown nose+ fee= random tier 2 accessory.
This is just crude idea, but do you think there is some merit in this or it should be scraped?

[ionic flower]

Honestly, what's really exciting about this one is that it's a collection game. I'm looking for certain traits to complete the Albums and pump the leaderboard numbers 🔢 it's fun and thank God the crazy supply means I can do it actually for a couple of dollars and don't need 7000$ to do it.

Also worst case scenario, burning can always be introduced at any point in time, so I'd say let it play out first before deciding to implement such a mechanism.

[lucid snow]

I think even fusing the illuvitars to potentially re roll its rartity,background etc would be cool. Maybe like 3-5 to fuse. Burns supply, adds gatcha excitement also.

[cyan otter]

But reducing the supply is something that breaks the collecting game. If therrs 5000 unique holders now, with 150.000 illuvitars, needing 150 to complete collections. How many illuvitars do we need in circulation when theres 100k players 1mil.. reducing supply is an nft/crypto thinking, in hope of financial gain i guess. But its not healthy for the game.

[lucid snow]

True, does make them rare but you are right maybe makes it less accessable for long term buyers.

[quiet wind]

You are 100% correct I think, that many of us here thinking from crypto/investment/NFT point of view.

But that should also be 100% understandable in a blockchain game with NFTs where people investing millions of dollars to keep the project going!

So when alpha disks buyers see their investment plummet out of the gate, it is natural they will try to find some solutions. Some might be outright bad, some might not work or not make sense, some you might not like, but probably you can see where we are coming from.

I understand you are at Illuvium to make a great game and art and you do and we all love it and appreciate it!

But you should also appreciate that people here ontop of loving most things you guys are do, we are also investors as well and crypto natives.

Same story by the way with the distinctive look for the alpha NFTs - people want to have it to make them feel less bad about loosing money there, give more meaning spending the 5X vs normal disks. And they want it on the blockchain as it is a crypto game, not only in Illuvium ecosystem.

I have seen your comment on it (that you don't really care about that) on the gov chat, and it was disheartening to see to be honest. You might t not like it, but can see above where we are coming from and can have some appreciation for that at least.

[marsh scarab]

Aaron and I have discussed a burning mechanic which is pretty cool and ties in to lore, once Aaron hashes out some details we will put it out for community consideration

bonding incentivization will start with leaderboards, but there may need to be more done

[quiet wind]

Sounds amazing, can't wait to see what it will be!

[quiet wind]

Sounds like a good first step but agreed that more incentives might be needed there.

Just an other random idea on that note: what about an Illuvitar lottery.

Every week there could be an event where some illuvitar attributes are randomly selected (in a way that it still covers lots of Illuvitars) , and at the end of the week everyone with those attributes get into a random draw where a winner is choosen. More power one have in the drawing more chance he has. Alpha worth 5x chance vs non alpha. Prize is a % from previous week trading fees.

For example beginning of the week tier2 stage 2 background is announced. People start to accumulate those (more trading volume) and put accessories up to improve power to increase winning chance. End of the week, all qualifying Illuvitar are entering the draw (with different weight though) and winner is selected.

Just a rough idea, I guess regulatory concers/questions might apply but to me it sounds pretty cool and would make up for a nice weekly event!