#[PASSED] IIP-31 Cancel Su Zhu Illuvitar Battle

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

marble scroll
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Simple Summary:
Illuvium will not hold an Illuvitars D1sk battle with Su Zhu.

Overview:
While Zhu Su is a well known figure in the web3 community and does have a larger follower count than Illuvium, direct association with him risks the reputation that the DAO has worked to curate.

Illuvium has constantly sought an image of being different and doing things right. The original presented "battle" not only places an Illuvium co-founder in direct connection with a controversial figure, but does so with the perception of an invitation from the DAO, on a stage provided by the DAO.

To ensure first introductions to Illuvium are not establishing a direct connection between a new, exciting product and a controversial figure representing arguably the perception the DAO has fought to separate itself from, the originally presented "d1sk battle" shall be canceled.

During this tenuous time for web3, it is important to avoid the risk of "scam by association."

Voting Link: https://gov.illuvium.io/#/proposal/0x9d97cdf0caca8fc3adf80f6a464703686b89e86ad1619afff202b7a6d7a6bb87

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cerulean garnet
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I think we first need to address who this guy is, to those of us like me who have no clue.

sleek ingot
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What is the opinion on this topic from the Head of Marketing or other people in Marketing on Illuvium team?

compact zodiac
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Yep. Would like to hear from Andrew Wall if possible

cerulean garnet
compact zodiac
marble scroll
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@civic iron is Head of Marketing

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and Andrew is still on team

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marketing team

marble scroll
winged citrus
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I read the proposal and still have no clue what it's about? What is this "Illuvitars Battle" and who in the world is Su Zhu or whatever that name was???

cerulean garnet
sleek ingot
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But there are more people in the Marketing team, maybe we can hear from them as well?

Also, maybe a tl;dr, will the d1sks used be from the Illuvium marketing d1sks or will they be purchased by Kieran and Su Zhu?

marble scroll
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These were going to be Kieran buying D1sks with his own funds and Su Zhu buying d1sks with his money.
The battle goes like this:

  1. Buy D1sks
  2. Open D1sks
  3. Whoever has high power rating pulls wins
frank kite
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the name is misspelled

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deraji also misspelled it in the twitter poll

compact zodiac
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I mean, based on the audience of Su Zhu, I think the "power rating" of illuvitars needs to have a larger application/utility within our illuvium ecosystem in order for it to not feel like a "scam" to them. We know it's not a scam, but they will just see another PFP. Now, if we had the card game built, then I'd say we do this.

fringe birchBOT
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DMs are scams

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Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

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marble scroll
frank kite
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I stand corrected

sleek ingot
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I feel weird we are having a discussion about what Kieran can and cannot do. I guess the main topic should be - does Illuvium promote the "battle" and streams is on the official platforms. But Illuvium already promoted it, so the topic is basically should Illuvium steam it on the official channels?

I personally feel this decision should be decided by people involved with marketing, I think that most people commenting here and in the other channel are not really marketing specialists. And I'm not one so I don't think my opinion on yes/no matters.

cerulean garnet
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products stand for themselves, if the NFTs are the best of the industry's best, and align with a well designed product as well, the NFT retains value. People hate this guy cuz he got caught with his pants down in a bull market going bear. And seems people want to hate, if the bull market remained, this guy would be crowned king of the world and cherished by this same group. Investors invested and lost, the whole yacht thing is hearsay, i dont think you run out and buy a yacht after losing your company, and do you realize the amount of diesel fuel it takes to run a small yacht one single day? I don't have any issue with this, on with the battle.

modest tundra
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I honestly don’t see the big deal here. Illuvium is not giving away anything to Su Zhu. It’s just a friendly competition between 2 people. Illuvium is not sponsoring any event. If anything this attracts more attention and users to illuvitars.

winged citrus
modest tundra
winged citrus
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A "battle" is a great idea IMO. Let's drive up the hype!!

modest tundra
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Would help bring the binance community into illuvium project

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Has Su zhu been charged with or found guilty of any criminal activity?

proper heath
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no discussion of formal proposal prior to voting. Bad procedure

cerulean garnet
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This is kind of a cancel culture issue, people want him gone, but you can't remove someone from society based upon a group vote, there is legal here, which has not taken place. Imagine if your mom canceled you when you took that 50 cents off the dresser without permission. We wouldnt exist

sleek ingot
proper heath
bleak narwhal
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The only addition is the simple summary, which simply summarizes the issue.

sleek ingot
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It was actually create by a community member but then re-created by Deraji afterwards just to get more traction and votes.

bleak narwhal
merry plaza
bleak narwhal
cerulean garnet
bleak narwhal
sleek ingot
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btw. a little off topic but since Kieran said he will not vote, what happens if the vote is 2-2? The IIP doesn't pass?

proper heath
# merry plaza It had enough votes to move on to formal IIP

And that IIP was not put up for discussion. There are a lot of people who follow only the governance posts and not the Ideas posts. The point of the governance forum is to give everyone in the community sufficient time to engage with IIPs and provide feedback.

bleak narwhal
bleak narwhal
merry plaza
compact zodiac
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I think the better question is if there is anyone that is now a part of the discord due to the tweets that Su Zhu has sent referencing this battle....mods? Does it feel like we have an uptick in new members as of the last few days?

winged citrus
merry plaza
cerulean garnet
winged citrus
# bleak narwhal It's up now Scoot. Unless Su Zhu changes who he is in the next 3 days, we have p...

How about this. If this Zhu guys public image is the only issue, instead of cancelling the "battle" get more people involved. It would squash the issue if it weren't just him and Kieran. We should not be turning anyone away. Remember that if someone has a polarized opinion, and we as a DAO pick a side, the "other side" will have issue with us. As an organization we should be neutral. We are a video game, not a political party.

bleak narwhal
pseudo stirrup
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the way the IIP is written sheds a very distinct bias on the subject. in debate, it is best to build both sides up to see the real pros and cons. Just my opinion.

winged citrus
bleak narwhal
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It's not about viewpoints, it's about him stealing people's shit and not cooperating to give it back lol

peak path
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And literally being a wanted fugitive as we sit here today

pseudo stirrup
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that is with any debate. you cannot argue the weakest part of the other side bc they will argue the strong points. you have to argue the strong points of the other side. that's just how it works. the IIP is written in a way that anyone that votes against it will immidiately be seen as an enemy of ILV.

hollow matrix
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Yah this isnt politics.. stealing from people is not the same has having difference of opinions

pseudo stirrup
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its a debate. no matter what the subject. and that is how arguing/debate works.

peak path
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I’m incredibly tolerant of all sorts of behavior, political views, and even founders who have businesses that go bankrupt. His ethos is completely opposite to what we’ve worked so hard to promote as a community (not stealing from his community, building lasting value and not using smoke and mirrors, etc.). I don’t care what he or anyone else does personally but to link our brand to him will do damage to Illuvium. No one is arguing that Kieran can’t do an individual battle. The question is the marketing battle being done directly supported by the Illuvium DAO.

proper heath
# peak path And literally being a wanted fugitive as we sit here today

Can you provide any reference that he is actually wanted? I did a bit of googling and couldnt find anything other than him being subpoenaed for documents relating to 3 arrows which would be standard in any bankruptcy.

If he is not actually wanted for any crime this whole discussion has been tainted by misinformation.

winged citrus
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I've seen a similar situation to this a few times now. If there is a significant and relevant background to the nature of a proposal. some kind of background should be established or at least referenced in the proposal. Then people could do their own research and the discussion in here would go much smoother.

peak path
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The Singapore government has indicated that he and Kyle Davies are not cooperating in bankruptcy proceedings. He’s personally hiding in Dubai currently so as not to get extradited. Depending on what documentation gets provided, he could be wanted for an entire host of criminal charges.

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This isn’t a legal matter, it’s a brand affiliation question. Is this the one person we want in the flagship spot matched up with Kieran for the launch of Illuvitars?

proper heath
winged citrus
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Ok, so after a little looking Into, the Su Zhu issue makes sense. His history in Blockchain is far reaching enough to have indirectly effected everyone in this space. It's not really a polarized topic. It's more about the fact that he damaged the entire Blockchain industry and is likely responsible for inspiring A LOT of the new regulations being pushed by the SEC and others. He's basically a lesser known 'first wave' of crypto rug pulls that catalyzed others to follow, like FTX.

I can definitely see a public "battle" with this guy being viewed as a red flag for our DAO to a large population of retail investors. I think the surface optics for people would be that he's buying Illuvitars with "stolen" crypto and make ILV DAO look like we don't care about "the little guy"

Obviously this is not the case, but in terms of public image I can see it going that way.

bleak narwhal
# proper heath So just to be clear there is currently NOT any criminal charges against him? Bec...

The company he ran went bankrupt, and now he's not cooperating with liquidators (who would return funds to investors) and is instead fleeing from the consequences of his actions.

Guilty or not guilty, do we want to associate the Illuvium brand with someone who is running away from accountability?

We're not here to judge the guy, but we do get to decide whether our name gets put next to his. That's what this is about.

winged citrus
bleak narwhal
winged citrus
marble scroll
winged citrus
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Anyone who has not looked into Zhu's story, please do before forming your opinion. I was against the proposal at first, but I did a 180° and now I'm for it after looking him up. This is actually an important and sensitive PR issue.

cerulean garnet
peak path
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How does this not link our brand to him?

halcyon shoal
clever python
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I'd be interested to hear what kieran has to say about this. I mean he is the head of marketing and have thought about this

pseudo stirrup
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what if kieran makes him look/feel like a jerk? can we get an IIP to publicly shame the dude?

cerulean garnet
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straight up bro game is all this is... will be the demise of everyone playing favorites, from who's on the DAO, to who's the content creators, to who can speak on discord negatively without getting banned

clever python
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ive read that he dont want to vote but pls share your opinion 🙏

cerulean garnet
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will do nothing to the brand

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g'day

winged citrus
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Anyone the DAO publicly associates itself with should be carefully vetted and this should have been caught before a public event was even considered.

Important questions to answer:
• Has the event already been publicized?
• Has damage to our public image already been done?

cinder raptor
proper heath
signal phoenix
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I beleive it is a simple calculation to make.
-How much positive press will Illuvium gain from the match?

-How much negative press will Illuvium gain from the match?

There is no need to factor in the legal situation or the moral situation...
It should purely be based on the best interests of the DAO both in the short and long terms.

And I beleive that based on the amount of negativity surrounding Su Zhu still, and the very high likelihood that influencers and media will use clickbait and sensationalism...
The likely outcome will be detrimental to Illuvium branding.

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In fact, Illuvium probably has more to gain now by canceling the event, and advertising that fact.

maybe something similar to the below;

"Illuvium is proud to be 1 of the first truly operating community DAO's, where our Stakeholders don't just reap the rewards, but they also have the power to voice and vote on their concerns.
As such, our DAO has voted against our previously planned match with Su Zhu, as they felt that association with such a polarizing figure within Web3 goes against what Illuvium is building towards.
We as a DAO will not impose restrictions on who has the rights to purchase or own Illuvium assets, however as a DAO we do feel it is best to choose associations and events correctly aligned with Stakeholders own values.
Thus the Illuvitar Battles with Su Zhu is postponed indefinitely.

We sincerely thank all of our Community and Stakeholders for continuing to voice their concerns, ideas and passion as part of the Illuvium DAO."

rancid cedar
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I dont think this should be an IIP, this is a marketing issue and as head of Marketing @civic iron should have the final say

he is free to advise with the rest of the marketing team and its great that he's heard the communities input, but at the end of the day this DAO is not run by the mob, and marketing specifically has been specified as outside of Councils authority, this current proposal sets a bad precedent that should not be set just to flex that "look at us we are a DAO"

maybe lets get a proposal through outlining more clearly what is and isn't within Councils Jurisdiction🤔

very few (if any) of the community members commenting on this have any marketing expertise (including the council and including myself) let alone web3 gaming marketing xp, maybe when Gov v2 comes w qualified people in the marketing sub-council this can change but until then imo its wrong for this to be up to council on any level (beyond sharing their opinions like everyone else)

I personally agree that Su Zhu shouldn't come on, and I've shared that, but its up to @civic iron and I'll accept whatever decision he makes as Head of Marketing

deep comet
deep comet
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i know u have to have ppl in charge to make daytoday desicions but when there is such a fuzz in the community and the head of marketing be like nah i make the dessitions... doesnt sits right with me...

rancid cedar
deep comet
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and i dont care abt this particular situation... im more conerned abt the long term and future possible desicions

loud marlin
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I understand that founder actions have high visibility and the possibility to harm the brand image of Illuvium, which is something none of us want.

However, I'm confused how this is related to the DAO. I thought the bet was to open D1sks and whoever lost personally gave the other D1sks that they individually purchased.

rancid cedar
signal phoenix
barren barn
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If we’re lucky, someone will burn their pc in a viral video hating on illuvium for being associated with su zhu and we can pull a genshin effect and rake in a few billion. No one here will care about morals once they’re filthy rich anyways.

civic iron
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I have discussed my reasons in other channels previously, but Scoriox asked for more info prior to voting so I thought I would share it here:

The plan was to battle someone controversial who Kain had a Twitter feud with in the past. This person had a huge following, with fans who either loved or hated him. My assumption was that the council would block the battle, which would allow me to create a PR narrative ahead of the launch of Illuvitars. If the council or community didn't block it, I would still battle him and use the opportunity to highlight the legitimacy of our project. In either case, it's a win/win situation for us.

The argument that people may see me battling Zhu Su and think that ILV is a scam is weak and a knee-jerk reaction from people who cannot see the bigger picture. The fact is, Zhu Su has a large following, including mega whales who do not trade on emotion. By battling someone controversial, we can generate buzz and attention for our project, and position ourselves as a legitimate player in the market.

In summary, by taking on a controversial figure, we can leverage their following to create a positive narrative for our project, regardless of the outcome. We can use the opportunity to showcase the strength and legitimacy of our project, and position ourselves as a serious player in the market

civic iron
rancid cedar
hollow matrix
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We can only assume with the information we have and i think a lot of us came to that conclusion

civic iron
hollow matrix
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I think a lot of us have been asking in ideas prior to this and havnt really got much feedback.

modest tundra
tropic cave
# civic iron I have discussed my reasons in other channels previously, but Scoriox asked for ...

Interesting perspective. Now I'm curious to see how it plays out for Illuvium or even your personal reputation.

But honestly, even when it goes south... people are forgetful and in a couple of months, definitely in 1-2 years, most of the people will forget that this ever happened (or at least nobody will care about it).

And as the saying goes. Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs 😂

winter oyster
cinder raptor
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Update:

image.png
glad plover
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Praise be

cerulean garnet
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this got approved? smh, dont think any council member even knew the facts of when this was taking place, or what it even is, let alone means nothing, very concerning

paper sapphire
bleak narwhal
paper sapphire
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Idea channel feedback was clear, and even the completely open Twitter poll I started was in favor of not having this association with Zhu

image.png
winged citrus
cerulean garnet
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i rest my case

cinder raptor
frank kite
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So proud of Illuvium community right now.

I get that Kieran is trying to make Illuvitars as big as possible, which increases runway and serves the community, but doing a promotion with a criminal is selling your soul for clicks.

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meanwhile Kieran is rubbing his hands as the Streisand effect generated more clicks than would have happened otherwise