[REVISED] IIP-XX Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[ancient wadi]

Simple Summary:
Illuvitars, a new offering by the DAO, is set to launch on March 7, 2023. The first tranche of Illuvitars will be called Wave 1. To increase awareness and drive interest, this proposal approves the creation of 1200 disks for marketing purposes (1,000 standard, 200 mega disks) and 30,000 limited-edition alpha disks.

Full Proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12cLQv3BtiOQvS4XUjQajKQRNypby-RJtsIU8iD_WNkQ/edit?usp=sharing

IIP-30 Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[torpid coral]

I'd double the amount of Alpha D1SKS that exist and reduce the price. Personal opinion

As someone that wants to collect as many as possible with Alpha status, this feels pretty prohibitive

[native quarry]

Are prints missed when not minted during the Alpha sale? Or would they have to be missed during the non-Alpha sale as well?

Missed Prints:
Any Illuvitar portraits which are not minted during the sale will be put into a “Missed Prints” auction following the normal Illuvitars sale. These will be 1/1 versions of their portrait.

[grave sleet]

0.375 ETH for an alpha mega d1sk… 🥲

[potent glen]

I am down for unlimited or an amount that would clear the expected silv2 amount at least.
Currently I´d expect bots of whales and flippers to buy all of this, avg person prob don´t want to take the gamble of is x5 worth it even.

This is very different from what TCG´s do to promote buying 1st edition.

[naive mortar]

alpha only- ensuring each illuvitar is actually represented in the set, as well as creating a unique auction opportunity for confirmed 1 of 1s

[dapper path]

Did I vote with thumb up

[glossy epoch]

You did.
(Not "vote" exactly, just showed your support for it... council members will be voting on the IIP once it is put forth to be voted on)

[cedar raft]

Agreed. And I would reduce the limit of d1sks per transaction

[torpid coral]

Currently the limit is 10, you're thinking 6-8?

[cedar raft]

Well if there are only 5k mega discs I would say 5 or less since we don’t have to worry about gas

[potent glen]

Unlimited amount would fix the problem of some might not get minted and having to worry about bots/transaction limits.

[marble silo]

That’s a ton of money for a pfp that isn’t the core of the project like a boredape or other project.

[native quarry]

That’s what I thought but the wording of that section did not clearly state that.

[tough chasm]

Will the raffle for the trip be for current holders of the alpha disks or original purchasers?

Will ppl be able to use Silv2 in purchase of Alpha disks?

[grave sleet]

It feels a lot for something that doesn’t add any extra benefits from the rest of the non-alpha collection except the Co-founder meet-up. Reduce the price of the alphas and do that meet-up-giveaway outside of Illuvitars.

[marble silo]

Even considering illuvitars as card art for a tcg in the future or something else can’t make that price make sense and I’m worried what kind of precedent and brand damage it could do and set if we try to sell these at such a luxury pricing.

[pliant vector]

buy a T1 land or aprox one alpha mega disk ..... hmmmm a little high imo

[wanton nacelle]

"The price of the limited-edition alpha disks will be 5x the price of the standard mega disks."
Is it just me or is the wording wrong? The price of the standard alpha disk is 5x the price of the mega disks? Or for both the price is just 5x bigger.

And basically for 5x the money you get:

• a stamp
• exclusive alpha skin (do we have more info on that)
• a chance to get exclusive alpha skin (do we know what chance)

Sound to me like we are paying 5x more for a stamp just because we don't know a better way to stop bots?

Can alpha disks not be open right away and sold after 6 months? Do you still get exclusive rewards?

Does ETH revenue we earn from alpha sale goes to Safety pool or is that revdis?

"Partnership disks will be included in the sale as available."
Not sure how that fits in the overview. There will the parnership disks be included. In the alpha sale, in the markering disks, or in the Wave 1?

[glossy epoch]

The price of the limited-edition alpha disks will be 5x the price of the standard mega disks.

I take it what this means is that Alpha Mega is 5x Mega while Alpha Standard is 5x the Standard?

[torpid coral]

Alpha D1SKS need to be opened prior to the Missed Print Sale Event (IF they are not opened they lose Alpha Status)

Alpha D1SKS should be opened, and the Alpha Illuvitars/Accessories Minted.

[torpid coral]

Yep

[grave sleet]

I doubt a collection of 30k alpha d1sks will mint out when other PFP collections can’t mint out 1000 for 0.05-0.08 ETH. Of course there’s a lot more to Illuvitars with the album and art is god like. But just to make a point that 30k is a big collection. Alphas should be rare…aka a lot smaller batch? No?

[ancient wadi]

Kieran is also editing the doc a little to be more clear

Will update once hes done

[torpid coral]

IMO It would sell out and more if it was priced for the diehard collectors in the room that want to have that Alpha Illuvitar Collection early

[ancient wadi]

Another aspect you gotta figure by 5x is that sILV2 will get burned quickly

[naive mortar]

1. You’re correct- alphas are 5x their non-alpha equivalent.
2. Limited edition stamp, alpha emote, and chance at limited edition skin
3. I’ll get into the logic shortly on why
4. Alpha disks need to be opened during the sale to enable the missed-prints
5. All Illuvitar sale revenue falls under the safety pool IIP
6. Partnerships need more detailed to be shared, particularly on timing and technical limitations on whether multiple disks (partnership/non-partnership) can be sold at the same time. We wanted to get the IIP out for reactions first before the details here were locked down.

[tough chasm]

So you can use sILV2 for these?

[ancient wadi]

Yes

[stoic stream]

Alpha is 1 time thing or happens for every wave?

[glossy epoch]

Will "disk/disks" be updated to "D1sk/D1sks"? 😇

[torpid coral]

Each Wave will have an Alpha Sale period for the unique set of Illuvitars/Accessories contained within that Waves D1SKS

[wanton nacelle]

Thanks for answering, can't wait to hear more details on 3.
But also, 6. didn't really make anything clear to me. We still know really little about partnerships. And my point was that it's just weird that one sentence is added to the IIP as I think it doesn't belong there.

[stoic stream]

ohh, then its not exclusive(considering if its for every wave then they are expensive). i thought its one time thing for early supporters when they launch illuvitars.

[wanton nacelle]

I didn't get that from the IIP, i guess the wording needs to be updated if that's the case.

[dapper path]

I may be alone here but I hate the idea of unlimited anything. Have some exclusivity for collectors let secondary markets live lol

[torpid coral]

Alpha is just 'First Edition' for that Wave

[torpid coral]

Agreed, not a fan of unlimited

[dapper path]

Been advocating against it in #💰〕token chat

[native quarry]

Alpha status seems like a luxury status.

It seems to me like the idea for alpha disks is for anyone that can afford one to be able to get one. But to use Alpha editions for completing collections would be for pretty big dogs.

[dapper path]

Some people disagree but realistically I’m not sure why the team would deviate from a working pfp model of limited drops.

[grave sleet]

Yeah agree. I don’t like the general idea of Alphas at all. I was thrilled for the Illuvitars main concept we already had and suddenly alphas popped up and I don’t like it.

[torpid coral]

Worth noting that there has been significant design/dev effort made to deliver a 'Launch Party Page' a location that will make the Sale a streamable community wide event.

If so many individuals are priced out from joining the initial Alpha Phase, does it take the sizzle out of the launch?

[grave sleet]

Yes.

[glossy epoch]

Aren't Alpha and Standard D1sks being sold at the same time? But Alpha D1sks are only available for the first 7 days? Those who are priced out of Alpha D1sks can still purchase the standard D1sks (as they likely originally planned to) and still participate in the launch party.

[nocturne trellis]

It’s not unlimited, once the sale is over it’s over

[dapper path]

Confused on the alpha concept gonna read about it rq

[torpid coral]

No, Alpha Phase leads into the Standard Sale phase

[glossy epoch]

30k Alpha D1sks does seem like a lot to me for an exclusive collection. So how did this total come to be? Has anyone tried calculating the probability of having missed mints if all 30k are minted? And how many missed mints might be suspected in that case? 👀

[torpid coral]

So either Alpha D1SKS sell out, or the time runs out before Standard phase begins

[torpid coral]

Aaron & Perry have run those numbers yes

[dapper path]

Wait so would alpha disk be priced at .375

[glossy epoch]

Okay, I see. So the sale date of March 7th that was announced is just for Alpha D1sks

[torpid coral]

As it stands right now

[grave sleet]

For 1 alpha mega d1sk yeah

[dapper path]

Wowza

[glossy epoch]

5000x Alpha Mega D1sks - 0.375 ETH each
25000x Alpha Standard D1sks - 0.075 ETH each

[dapper path]

Wait I think I’m getting confused now. Are all of these illuvitars (March 7) “alphas”

[mental eagle]

The rationale in the IIP seems very lacking to me. I don't like this IIP but I could be persuaded if some justification or research was shown how these numbers came about and the reason an Alpha is even needed.

[glossy epoch]

30,000 are Alpha D1sks with the "1st Edition" stamp-- 5000 Mega, 25000 Standard available during the first week.

The rest of the sale (lasting 3 months overall) will just be regular "non-alpha" D1sks without the 1st edition stamp at the regular prices.

[tough chasm]

@naive mortar If alphas need to be opened during the sale to help with the missed prints auction, what happens if someone doesn’t open one, are they just shit out of luck?

[naive mortar]

there's been a lot of debate on even writing iip's. consensus right now is to keep them brief without a lot of commentary. i'll be doing some work to give more context, and i expect others to jump in as well. i'm also at work, so doing my best to track and respond as i can.

[dapper path]

Oooooooo

[rough stirrup]

So I’ve been thinking about it a bit more and I still just really don’t like the idea of alpha disks. The whole thing just had a bit of a ‘cash grab’ vibe that feels more like something that would come out of star atlas than Illuvium.

I’ve also noticed that the proposal doesn’t mention that alpha disks cannot be held as unopened packs due to the need to know which illuvitars can be sold in the missed prints sale. I think for most people this is going to be a huge disincentive for most people engaging with the alpha sale and create a lot of frustration if this isn’t properly communicated.

The idea of illuvitars used to be elegant and exciting to me but alpha disks make it feel convoluted. Hopefully it’s just me not liking change but everyone else I’ve talked to about it has had a problem with the idea in one form or another.
To me the Alpha disks are an idea that needs more development and should not be included in this first sale.

[naive mortar]

great question - i don't know. that is a technical team question.

[cedar raft]

Reduce alpha D1sk price and decrease D1sks per transaction to allow more people in and decrease effectiveness of bots

[grave sleet]

This is what I wanted to say but couldn’t phrase 💯

[surreal idol]

It's been indicated that they will transition into non-alpha disks at the end of the sale duration if they haven't been opened.

[dapper path]

Tbh I think I love the price and concept of alpha disk and mega disk especially. I was worried that the economics behind the illuvitars sale was focused on spam printing a million avatars. The exclusivity and limited supply of these alpha megs make them really attractive from an investment AND collector perspective

[torpid burrow]

#🎮〕illuvium-beyond message

[glossy epoch]

The people who intended to purchase D1sks and keep them unopened can still purchase the D1sks and keep them unopened though. They shouldn't be interested in the Alpha D1sks, the way I see it. Those interested in Alpha D1sks would ideally be interested in opening the D1sks and having the "1st Edition" stamp on there.

I agree that the transition of unopened Alpha D1sks to Standard D1sks needs to be properly communicated. There is this mention in the current proposal draft, but I do think it still needs to be fleshed out a bit more in the official proposal:

Alpha disks will transition to non-alpha equivalents at the end of the alpha disk sale. This will be clearly indicated on the Illuvitar sale page.

[torpid burrow]

Price increase seems high. I was planning on trying to get 10 alpha mega d1sks and 10 alpha standard d1sks. I might still grab a few, but definitely not 10. Wave 1 alphas will eventually be the OG of alphas.

In reply to the above post^ I think the idea for the alphas is to generate a buzz that otherwise wouldn't be there. If they didn't do the limited release where you HAD to open them, frankly I would wait as long as possible to buy illuvitars so that I could see if ILV appreciates, especially for wave 2 which will probably be ending right around open beta releases. Also, I would probably leave quite a few unopened and resell later.

With alpha having a limited edition that you HAVE to open immediately, I immediately was willing to flip over to the polar opposite and give in to the hype, buy 10 megas and 10 standards, open them all right away, and get super excited about actually using the product instead of having unopened d1sks in my wallet.

[vernal harbor]

This pricing for both Alpha Mega and Alpha Standard D1sks is what I was assuming, but the wording wasn't clear. And do the Alpha D1sk bonuses come with both the Mega and Standard Alpha D1sks?

[surreal idol]

The price is a variable that can change, but we should be mindful that if we're significantly under what the market values alpha disks at, we're missing value as a DAO, and exporting that value to secondary market sales. If, for example, pricing were 2x base price, we might sell out in minutes, while people operating bots with the intention of flipping alpha disks would be making up the difference. Someone might still end up paying 5x for an alpha disk, but a significant portion of that 5x wouldn't be going to the DAO.

Some other ways to find a fair market price for alpha disks were discussed, but none of those ways would be able to make the timeline for the first Wave of sales to start.

[glossy epoch]

Yes, Alpha D1sk bonuses would come with all 30k (or however many are minted).

[tough chasm]

Was just looking for clarification cause it didn’t seem very clear to me. Also if it just turns into a normal disk at transition if a person doesn’t open it will cause massive outrage if not communicated to the fullest.

[olive trout]

I don't understand the problem about "BOT" if there are unlimited supply. the "BOT" will loose money doing this... But another solution would be to just allow the ILV Holder/Stacker Role verified Discord to a limited amount of Alpha Pack to buy.
Sorry for the Reply, missed

[surreal idol]

This is in the proposal:

[surreal idol]

There are a limited supply of alpha disks.

[tough chasm]

Read it twice and still missed it

[surreal idol]

5000 Mega and 25000 Standard.

[devout vine]

maybe team should not engage in wholesale alpha and standard d1scs ? emotionally devalues ​​standard d1scs. as something not so valuable.

[mental eagle]

I believe Aaron said they would convert after 3 months, after the the normal sale is done. Has that changed?

[torpid burrow]

But Aaron mentioned that any transactions that are submitted will be processed even if it would technically "sell out", it will go over the cap. So theoretically anyone that shows up and wants one will get one at the lower price. So botters can't take all of the supply and resell, they can inflate the supply, however. Everyone that was present and wanted one got one. Of course not everyone can be awake all of the time, so those people would miss out.

The higher price makes sense, but I don't want to pay it 🙂 it's hard to say with confidence that they will be able to retain 0.375 ETH value when the exact same thing without alpha tag exists. I know there's also been possible talk about changing alpha's art down the road slightly so they are different from non-alpha.

[surreal idol]

I think it may be mis-written in the proposal, I think it's supposed to indicate that they would transition from alpha to non-alpha at the end of the normal sale duration (i.e. after 3 months). That's my current understanding.

[glossy epoch]

Yeah, I think this needs to be a bit more fleshed out. Is it that 2nd sentence?

Are they trying to say unopened Alpha D1sks will convert into non-Alpha D1sks at the end of the Alpha sale? And does that mean the deadline to open them would be when the Standard D1sk sale starts.. assuming March 14th?

[brazen radish]

Looks good to me,will be getting some Alpha.

[torpid burrow]

^ this is correct. In order to mint the 1 of 1s and auction them, unopened alpha packs cannot be able to then be opened and duplicate 1 of 1s.
So as soon as the alpha sale is over they have to stop being alpha packs.

[umbral thorn]

5x is a bit of a rise really. But I'd still get one then wait for the normal ones to go on sale. Would prefer the choice to buy normal or alpha from day 1. I'm neither here nor there on this one, as long as whatever is decided on still happens on the 7th and the results are communicated so everyone can understand them with no ambiguity in the wording then it'll be fine.

[potent glen]

can I share youtube links in this chat?
I´d like to share Asmongolds reaction to MTG´s 30th year anniversary thing, as it seems similar in few ways to give some feedback/insight to how web2 /TCG would react to some of the IIP

[fickle furnace]

I do like the concept. I like the idea of having a set that is more "collectible" while not having it done with different Illuvials in the Illuvitars.

If I am reading this correctly then on Mar 7 the sale will open with the Alpha d1sks and those will sell until the numbers are reached and only then will the non-Alphas sell. My issue with this is that the release date has already been put out on social media. People have been going to the Illuvium site, seen what the price is and now it is going to be increased.
I'm diehard Illuvium. I would happily participate in this. BUT if I had just heard about Illuvitars on Twitter yesterday, gone to the site and wrote down prices, planning to return on the 7th to buy a few; I wouldn't be impressed if when I got to the sale the price was 5 times more than what I had been told on the website. Are we alienating new customers/would be players/would be community members?

Can the Alpha be sold at the same time as the non-Alpha d1sks? Or can the date be bumped up for the Alpha D1sks?

[surreal idol]

Can we acknowledge that Illuvitars, while similar to a TCG, is not a TCG. If our only standard for discussing Illuvitars is "TCG does it different", we're gonna find differences, but it's a different product. I'll check it out in #1023650034593570917 if you share it though.

[potent glen]

yeah obv it isn´t the same, I see many similarities in it though and would expect many similar reactions

[umbral thorn]

Both Alpha and normal need to be available day one imo

[wanton nacelle]

I don't know who is a target group for alpha disks. I thought the Illuvitars are a pfp and collection project. If you are collecting you don't really care about a stamp (unless you are a whale). But if you're looking for a pfp. Are you willing to play the lottery?

I really don't get it who is this aimed at.

[rough stirrup]

I think the attractive part of holding unopened disks was that you could open them in the future and potentially find one of the rarest Illuvitars. Now with an alpha set any Illuvitar from a standard disk will be of a moderate rairity because all the rarest ones are Alpha Illuvitars and are already in circulation.
It seems pretty obvious to me that this would be the case, look at Bored Apes vs Mutant apes, while they are still cool and afford similar rights in the ecosystem the mutants are always significantly cheaper than original apes and see lower demand. Same with TCG products where the 1st editions have a significant premium compared to unlimited prints.
The excitement of unopened packs comes from the potential to find something rare and high value but that wont happen if the alpha set makes the standard collection feel really mid.

[potent glen]

I also think it would be nice to see non web 3 cover something like this in a positive way and not in the general nfts bad/cashgrab way, that is why I dislike focusing on the crypto mindset points instead of web2/TCG selling points

[tough chasm]

If Kieran is making changes already to the document will the updated one need to go through 30 votes approval before going to council for a vote or will the current tally stand regardless of what he adds?

[surreal idol]

Fundamental changes would require a new round of voting. The current doc isn't editable by anyone but myself though, and any changes we agree to make would be agreed by the council (we prepared this draft as a group) and would be documented.

[dreamy stone]

The google doc is showing as restricted. 🚫 so I can’t read it

[wanton nacelle]

In my mind, alpha disks are just a lottery where you are paying 5x more and hoping somebody will like the illuvitar you get and there won't be a lot of them and you will be able to sell it high.
Chances of getting something you really like are really low. And if you are in it for collecting, you are better of buying normal ones.
Also, do we really expect the Illuvitars with a stamp to go for 5x the money on a market? Or are we getting something else in alpha disks we don't know about?

[tough chasm]

Good to know, usually authors are listed at the top so I was wondering who had drafted this, thanks!

[torpid burrow]

do agree with this. as someone that was going to grab several wave 1 illuvitars I now feel like the non-alpha don't hold as much appeal, but I'm effectively priced out of buying more than 1 or 2 alpha megas.

[surreal idol]

It was a team effort based on the information we'd received about the sale and mechanics.

[tough chasm]

So for the raffles, like the meeting with the founders, is that based on wallet that purchases the alpha or the wallet that opens it?

[wanton nacelle]

My price range is 2 normal mega packs in one wave and I don't see a point in buying one normal alpha pack. But I'm not a target audience for Illuvium.

[nocturne trellis]

The only thing I maybe don’t like about alpha disks is the supply. 30k is a ton,

As far as people wanting to hoard unopened packs why do we care? We want people to use them

[tribal gulch]

Out of my price range for sure… well maybe 1 ultra

[slate vigil]

Imma get an alpha disk. I better win that trip thought. I wouldnt want for @flint linden to miss the chance to meet me

[tough chasm]

Also is the exclusive skin something you find in the alpha disks or a raffle like the trip? It was a bit unclear to me

[slate vigil]

https://tenor.com/view/fancybear2-gif-19198639

[fickle furnace]

Yeah, I would like to know the percentage chance of getting the skin.

[rough stirrup]

I would say we want people to buy packs. After they buy them who cares if they use them or hold them unopened.

I agree the supply is an issue but its a problem if its too big or too small. Too big and it doesnt sell out which indicates the brand is weak and the Illuvitars wont likely hold value. Too small and it gets botted out and regular buyers get frustrated and choose not to engage with the rest of the sale.

As much as I dont like whitelists this is why whitelists exist and would be an appropriate time to use one.

[nocturne trellis]

There should be a timer on the UI itself after opening, then no one could complain.

But this has to be there or people will be pissed.

[tough chasm]

I love this solution!!

[mental eagle]

I don’t like adding exclusivity in illuvium. I would prefer the whale to whale out on collections. And let the shrimps play in the same pool.

[nocturne trellis]

Last 7 days trading volume

BAYC: 508 ETH
MAYC: 1239 ETH

Mutants see higher demand.

Since alphas don’t award more power or add to any collection any more than normals, normals will see higher demand as people try to complete sets.

[tribal gulch]

The thought of .375 eth for a alpha ultra & the rare being an accessory 8 out of 10 times seems like a very dangerous play (for lack of a better word)

[glossy epoch]

Illuvium: Beyond is a collection game though. I can't imagine the "First Edition" stamps will play a critical role in completing collections unless there's a flat out "First Edition" collection or something, which there could be. The combinations of Illuvitars + Accessories (whether they be Alpha or Standard) are what will get you the most points in the game.

Points would ultimately end up equating to the value, I think. Or at least in theory, it'd be one of the big contributing factors to the value.

[pseudo anchor]

It’s a good idea, but 5x the price is just too high, and the existence of alphas takes the shine off buying a regular mega disk.

I think that’s the general feedback of most people in this thread.

[nocturne trellis]

Origin axies have a floor of 0.45 ETH vs normal axies of 0.001 ETH.

There is literally nothing about origin different except the tag (at least as of when I was keeping up with the project months ago not sure if they added any utility but even before there was a giant premium)

[grave sleet]

For me alpha d1sk kills the whole excitement of the standard Illuvitars and all future waves if there’s always supposed to be an alpha drop before every wave. As earlier writers said, alphas just sounds like a money grab that I wasn’t expecting Illuvium to have. If we want to make a collection exclusive and exciting, limit the amount of standard d1sks instead of adding a extra layer on top of the standards. We can make the whole first wave to a OG “1st edition” collection without alphas by limiting the supply of d1sks to the standards. This makes us early adapters to feel exclusive. I don’t care about bots tbh. To me, as a mini plankton, this IIP only benefit sILV2 whales IMO. Can someone write me an IIP to not have alpha d1sks

[rough stirrup]

In the last 7 days thats true. Not true for 90 day or overall.

[ancient wadi]

Its not anything crazy, just more of wording changes

[nocturne trellis]

We want people engaging with the “game” of collection, making content about it, etc.

Can’t think just about immediate affect for the DAO in terms of most buys = best. We want to think about what’s healthiest for the community long term, which ends up being best for the DAO

[graceful citrus]

I am going to say several comments on my initial thoughts:

1. money grab?

2. disrectful to current members

3. going to have to skip this because a 5x multiplier is nuts! Sad because I was excited to have "first set/release" of illuvitars ... kinda sucks because being around the project for over a year, I now get penalized to get the Alphas unless I am willing to fork out money?

4. will the disks people won in giveaways be from the marketing supply? They earned these in advance, shouldn't they come out of the Alpha supply because they were promised "first set" which is technically the Alpha set...?

That is all for now...

[nocturne trellis]

Why though? The point of illuvium beyond is increasing power and completing collections, for clout and rewards. Alphas don’t help with either of those things better than normals.

So why does it take the shine off of normals?

Honestly I’ll probably use more silv on normals than alphas

[rough stirrup]

Of course but if we're choosing between people buying 100k packs for the game and 0 to hold longterm OR people buying 100k packs for the game and 100k to hold longterm. I think its pretty obvious which of these option is better.

The idea here is to create a product and make it available. It makes no sense to alienate potential buyers because you think they have the wrong intended use for the product.

[snow palm]

Why does every single thing in Web 3 have to be scarce?

[torpid burrow]

this is a super good point. I was under the impression the "rare" in the mega d1sks was most likely going to be an illuvial, very low chance of it being an accessory

I was also told that only the illuvials are "alpha" and accessories in alpha are the exact same as non-alpha accessories. I would be pissed if I purchased one alpha mega d1sk and my guaranteed rare didn't even have an alpha tag because it was an accessory.

[snow palm]

Gamefi and Web 3 wont have the adoption we think it will if the vast majority of people view every product as a money grab, or if the value of insignificant items is seemingly derived from the greater fool theory.

Reddit is onboarding MILLIONS into web 3 with FREE NFTS. Not saying we should make Illuvitars free, just saying if we are to make things cheaper and more abudnant, or scarce and more expensive, I would vouch for the former.

The nickle and diming of every product by having false scarcity is getting tiring IMO.

[native egret]

This is not what Illuvium is IN MY OPINION, sure you can charge insane pricing in crypto but isn't Illuvium about doing web 3 right? This is a step back. 5x price will bring in all kinds of bad press and I think it will hurt the brand. Again just my thoughts here.

[graceful citrus]

What If someone is purchasing at the same time as someone else, is there a risk of someone paying 5x for non-alpha disks?

Or will it be like land and once the "supply" is reserved no one else can buy them?!

[tribal gulch]

My understanding is the rare is definitely more often a accessory

[surreal idol]

No, there's a solution where the supply can flex a bit (like, for 2 minutes after 5k/25k is reached, for example), so anyone paying for an alpha would get an alpha.

[snow palm]

Illuvium should be a player 1st culture, not Investor profits 1st...

This IIP really feels like we are losing focus of who we are serving, and what is being made.

[grizzled lion]

Statisticallt that makes sense. Idk if they gave technical limitations in changing that

[nocturne trellis]

Now this is the first point that is truly worrisome.

Seems like people are blowing this way out of proportion but is it going to be worth it to buy megas at 5x price when the only benefit is maybe getting a alpha illuvitar? Seems like there needs to be something else added or a reduction in alpha mega cost

[snow palm]

100% THIS^

[grave sleet]

The super rare odds of winning a trip….which I think should be held as a giveaway outside of Illuvitars

[graceful citrus]

So you and @grizzled lion just said two different things... reserved or unreserved? If there is a flex period there will be more than 30k Alpha disks?

Maybe I missed it, is there 31,200 Alphas or 30k minus reserved 1200 so only 28,800 available to public?

[wanton nacelle]

Why are alpha disks with just a alpha illuvitar and nothing else??
Why are we getting regular accessories in it? Why not just alpha illuvitar and lower price?

[snow palm]

For anyone who wants to see a brand self implode because of money grab limited scarcity BS - I encourage you to look into Magic the Gathering's 30th anniversary release.

[olive trout]

just watched this, viper shared before.

[mental eagle]

Yeah just mint me an Illuvitar for these prices. I'm not bonding my Alpha with any accessories.

[surreal idol]

The marketing discs aren't alpha discs. The solution we discussed last night allows a short time window of flex so that someone paying for an alpha disk gets an alpha disk.

I'm not sure what solution Scoriox was referring to TBH.

[snow palm]

IMO the goal of illuvitars should be a marketing tool to onboard new people into the Illuvium eco system. To me, this looks like it will accomplish the exact opposite.

[vivid osprey]

One good question I wanted to address above is who the alpha d1sks are targeted toward. I reiterate my stance from last summer regarding the general purpose and targeted audience for Illuvitars in general being Web2 gamers and collectors. https://twitter.com/Animositas1/status/1546533194991804417?s=20&t=TGgKqUAzMT1aqzqks2C5Ng
The main collection mechanic, easy entry point to get people in the door into the community, and marketing value for Illuvitars still fully exist in the same way they did without the alpha d1sks in place.

That said, the target audience for the Alpha d1sks is Web3 degens who pre-eminently value rarity, major whales who are dying to use their sILV2 to get larger pieces of the project, and die-hard Illuvium fans who want to collect 1-2 alphas because they want the most OG everything. Many of these individuals will use bots to grab everything off the market in minutes at 2x but would have to make some decisions at 5x. The alphas are definitely NOT intended to be used for the collectible game nor are they marketed towards all of us (myself included) who are here for the general utility of Illuvitars as our in-game pfps or in the collecting game. Keep in mind also that we anticipate well over 95% of the alphas will be purchased with sILV2 so at a steep (~50%) price discount from the 'list price'.

One really important question for the community is, would you rather that audience pay the project 5x to go to fund the treasury to build the rest of the games, or pay 2x to the treasury while the other 3x goes to the flippers? Also note that this doesn't mean that every sale would need to have the same ratio in the future either.

Animositas (@Animositas1)

Per popular demand, I’m going to share my thoughts on Illuvitar pricing as this discussion has been underway for several months. TSG and I discussed this a bit in our recent interview but I want to elaborate further. It’s going to be another long one so buckle up. 🧵 1/

Twitter · Jul 11, 2022, 4:33 PM

[fickle furnace]

From the IIP:
"Due to the nature of the process to convert from Alpha sale to the non-Alpha sale, the number of Alpha disks may slightly exceed the allotted threshold. "

[snow palm]

These are profile pictures yall...

[graceful citrus]

So if someone EVERYONE times it perfect at the end of the flex period, there could be 100k alpha d1sks?

Exagerrating but part of the reason for buying them is for limited supply, you are saying there could be an indeterminate amount based on whether or not a bunch of people mass buy during that very short flex window...

Just saying any room for uncertainty before buying is a bit of a "dark" gray zone...

[graceful citrus]

Slightly... but could be Staggering... ^^^ (above)

Anyways will read more after work... but wanted to jump in before there's an encyclopedia to read...

[surreal idol]

In theory yes, if someone bought 100k mega alpha disks in the last 2 minutes with a bot or something, the DAO would make $60M and supply would be higher. The team would need to speak to whether or not there are additional technical limitations that could be put in place to prevent that kind of thing.

[wanton nacelle]

You make a good point.

I have to disagree with you on a easy entry for collecting. To collect something you need at least 20 illuvitars for example. And having 20 illuvitars is not an easy entry.

So alpha disks are here for money grab and not for people that support the project for years. That's the problem that community has.

[fickle furnace]

If Illuvium makes money it is good for the people who have supported the project for years.

[snow palm]

Illuvium will have 0 problems making money for everyone if the focus is always on making incredible products for the PLAYERS.

[native egret]

But in ANY collectable game 1st edition stuff is the same pricing and also the most collectable part of the game. Taking away the ability for people to hold Alpha packs long term, stops a critical collection aspect for many.

[nocturne trellis]

This, what’s good for players is good for investors and the DAO

[mental eagle]

These types of rationales need to be released same time as IIP, if you guys are hesitant to add it to the official doc itself.

[graceful citrus]

Did ANY card game ever release 1st edition packs at a higher price? No, they were a benefit for EARLY ADOPTERS when they bought them - *** CASE CLOSED ***

[fickle furnace]

We need to have enough money to keep paying the team until the games are being played. Something like this where sILV2 is being used up and ETH starts flowing in could be the answer to that.

[fluid heath]

personally i think we should shut down the idea of Alpha´s.
Its the first Sale of Illuvitars. I think wave one is the Alpha version.
We are still so early. With upcoming waves the wave 1 would be always the first ones the alpha ones.
i think people get mad about new stuff right before the sale. + the higher prices.
Thats what i think. Thanks guys.

[snow palm]

^100% THIS^

[mental eagle]

The most compelling rationale for this is to burn up as much sILV2 as possible. I don't think that is compelling enough for me.

[thin sierra]

I also have a hard time accepting the price tag on this alpha sets, It's almost like getting T1 land.

With illuvitars I wanted to buy 1 ultra and a couple of regulars for fun, flex and my own ILV identity as some have expressed this feels a bit detached from ILV ethos. I understand the argument of scarcity and value for the big crypto peeps but I sincerely liked the original idea of unlimited mint within limited time frame (would do the same for alpha), the value IMO should come later when the game is a big success and you were there for the first sale.

But I will say that as I don't know the full scale and details of the Illuvitar/album/game I could be missing something that would change my opinion

[fickle furnace]

This part I definitely agree with: "i think people get mad about new stuff right before the sale. + the higher prices"

The reaction could have been different if this had been brought up before sale date announcement and before the prices listed on the website.

[snow palm]

I don't find it a compelling reason either.

I find it to be mostly an investor's approach to juice revenue.

Where in the IIP does it talk about making this more accessible to the most amount of players?.... It doesnt... It literally is all about how do we make more money, and drive up the value of PROFILE PICTURES.

What is happening? I thought Illuvium was here to break the mold of horrible tropes of Web 3 that give the space a bad name, and be a genre defining game and IP.

Put. Players. First. Not. Investors.

[grave sleet]

Yeah like when did even alphas pop out as an idea? Not cool adding a new IIP with totally new idea of the drops AFTER the illuvitar launch been announced….

[wanton nacelle]

Also, having alpha disks at wave 17 seems pointless right? How is that a good idea?

[maiden osprey]

Alpha just overcomplicates the whole thing. And I'm not sure bots won't buy them out at 5x. That's like 6 sILV2 per mega disk. So that's total of 5k * 6 = 30k sILV2.
And for the disks themselves we have 2 sILV2 per disk. So that's 25k * 2 = 50k. Total available supply of sILV2 is over 170k. And we're asking for only half of that to buy it out. It'll be a bot battle and at the end prices will be flipped.

[next wadi]

After reading many reactions and being pro alphas to begin with I have to admit that I am now against alphas unfortunately.

I think if we have alphas many will loose interest in the normal sets and the goal of Illuvium Beyond should be a collection game.
Player should buy many cards and can be super lucky to get one of the most valuable pfp for the ongoing wave. In my opinion people will spend more money in the end with no Alphas.

It could be that many will loose interest in Illuvium Beyond because of this.

[torpid burrow]

If anyone wants the numbers, at current ILV price if only sILV2 was used for alpha, the alpha d1sks would sell out and burn 66% of existing sILV2

[maiden osprey]

Your sILV2 numbers don't include currently pending rewards and the liquidity in the LP.

[torpid burrow]

correct (that's why I put existing sILV2)

[wanton nacelle]

Can we all agree that Illuvitars are not cheap in a first place for a collection game? Havinga 5x price for a stamp is ludacris.

[proven prairie]

While I was on board with an alpha sale, I also thought it would just be for the first 3 to 7 days of Illuvitar minting. This just feels wrong to me. The general thought was we were trying to move away from general web3 shenanigans and now we are creating a pfp Star Atlas money grab.

[torpid burrow]

how would you guys feel about if alpha was normal price, but only the ones bought in first 3 days were alpha stamped?

[maiden osprey]

Please 6 sILV2 is $250 this is nothing compared to mints in 2021.

[torpid burrow]

that was just the gas! haha

[snow palm]

IMO adjusting product pricing and marketing incentives to burn sILV2 is fundamentally wrong.

Make great products that are player first.

[maiden osprey]

Yeah. And you get 5 items and an OG stamp. It'll buy out.

[wanton nacelle]

And collecting 20 of them is how much for a collection game?

[rough stirrup]

Just wanna say it feels REALLY bad that marketing posts promoting Alpha Disks are going out in the middle of a conversation about how a lot of people dont like this IIP.

[brazen radish]

Not everyone

Put it through a Community vote

[vivid osprey]

Let's be fair on this. It's about 45-55 in terms of sentiment expressed in here. And all of the awake council members are in here engaged and listening to feedback.

[sacred leaf]

I will say that this does seem like an attempt to generate more revenue for the sale to potentially outdo the land sale. I can’t see the reasoning for making the 5x in an alpha disk in terms of exclusivity. Like Synix said, this alpha should just be the fact that the first batch first wave. Doesn’t seem right to have the iip reducing price of illuvitars and then one month out adding an additional d1sk that is actually the real collectors one l.

[maiden osprey]

I see a few ways sale of Alphas going:

1. Total sell-out. People are pissed because they didn't get enough.
2. Increasing the supply. Everyone gets alphas and the rest of the sale is pure nothingness.
3. People are not interested and alphas are not sold out. People are pissed, they paid 5x what others did.

In conclusion, alphas will leave at least someone unhappy about how it was done.
Decision: don't do alphas.

[graceful citrus]

So just to be sure this has already been passed? The whole ALPHA idea was passed on a different IIP? Or is Illuvium's Twitter post ahead of the game?

[brazen radish]

Yeah,thats not a good look.

[sacred leaf]

https://tenor.com/view/big-oof-size-small-medium-switch-gif-17355313

[thin sierra]

Hate seems to be a bit strong just needs some adjustment and that's why we are expressing ourselves and trying to give constructive feedback

[grave sleet]

Illuvium twitter must be hacked damn I hate to see that tweet

[graceful citrus]

@grizzled lion @surreal idol @vivid osprey can you comment?

[snow palm]

I could be alone in this, but I always thought Illuvium was trying to break the mold of the "get rich quick" web 3/gamefi projects from 2021. Most of those looked like money grabs that couldn't give a damn about player experience, those were all ponzi games that were obvious money grabs. This sort of proposal has no mention of how players will interpret this, it is PURELY talking about the monetization of the product, not a peep about the player experience.

IMO Illuvium should always be a culture of player first. It's weird I feel like I'm alone when I say that.

[fluid heath]

don´t worry guys. tweet is getting deleted.

[ancient wadi]

Tweet being removed

[marble silo]

Serious question. Why didn’t we just set up a dutch auction for this alpha event from the start if we don’t know how to price products fairly?

[ancient wadi]

calmate

[graceful citrus]

Glad I follow and could help 😉 everyone be sure to get ALL notifications 😉

[next wadi]

agree on that i think it's important for the council before they decide to consider the communities reactions.
I understand it must have been work to prepare the alpha sale but it's important to know first hand the communities sentiment.
There should not be advertising on something which was not voted on by the council for next IIP's in my opinion.

Maybe Synx idea to only start it after the second wave would calm down many in the community and we would have more time to discuss this.

[ancient wadi]

[brazen radish]

Just do a community Vote,we are going to have a week of back and forth with the same arguments.keep it simple.

[maiden osprey]

I'm sleeping on this one. It definitely needs a change. Too many people are getting frustrated over it. We have to make it better or scrap it.

[marble silo]

It wouldn’t be the first time a product got delayed and wont be the last time in order to improve.

[sacred leaf]

This reminds me a lot of the forge reaction

[thin sierra]

I think if the worry is getting too much sILV2 and not enough liquidity an idea could be that alpha has same price but can only be bought with ETH or USDC 🤔 (limited minting window too)

[sacred leaf]

But this time I think there’s some validity

[brazen radish]

Thats the thing,we have a vocal body saying the same thing on either side.

[graceful citrus]

I would do that! But looks like they wanna kill as much sILV2 as possible (at original price not 5x price)

[snow palm]

IMO if the pricing motive of any product launch is to burn sILV2, it is fundamentally flawed.

Make great products that PLAYERS love. The silv2 will burn by itself over time.

[brazen radish]

Another thing i would have liked to see implemented.

[grave sleet]

First of all. If you think you have too much sILV2, don’t claim sILV2 in the first place

[sacred leaf]

You and me both

[maiden osprey]

Why not make all disks opened on first week alpha and get it over with. You get the following benefits:

1. You get people having the stamp if they want it that much.
2. If you like to hoard wave 1 disks you have to keep the disks unopened.
3. This allows for buying before and after the deadline.
4. Price is the same. You just trade stamp for long term hording

[nocturne trellis]

At this point idk if the alpha idea is fixable in the mind of the community,

This IIP may just need to be rejected.

[proven prairie]

The bad timing and communication for both seem similar

[vivid osprey]

Just to try to recap and provide some context to the concerns. The main topics I am hearing in this thread are the following:

1. The addition of alpha d1sks was not communicated well enough and has not had enough time to be vetted and digested by the community fully.
2. The price of alphas is too high at 5x, although some premium makes sense.
3. The alphas should be able to be retained even if unopened.
4. Some clarification around the details and rewording is needed in the IIP for a few topics that were not completely clear.
5. Mixed feedback on the numbers of d1sks but seems to be a solid mix in both sides for too many and too few.

Can I get some reactions and feedback if that seems to capture what most are addressing? If so, we can use this as a starting point for follow-up council discussions.

[brazen radish]

I am all for a DAO on higher levels.but this micro management is going to get people burnt out ,come tomorrow iam not reading through 500+ post about this.Community vote with ILV imo

[snow palm]

We don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot before we even get started.

Once public sentiment changes its like climbing up a mountain to get it back.

We don't want to be like hasbro

[sacred leaf]

The first two I think is where the brunt of the hate is stemming

[maiden osprey]

The problem Ani is that the announcements are out. Tweet was sent about something, that no one from the DAO/Council approved. It looks like we're pushing something no one asked for. And our hands are tied for changing it with the deadline already ticking.

[fickle furnace]

I have no issue at all with the IIP. My issue is with Illuvium doing the marketing for a product before deciding what product is being sold.

[snow palm]

Thank you for your acknowledgment of the concerns raised ani.

IIP should be evident to all that it was written with the player experience as the #1 priority.

Accessibility, participation, and player experience should be the DRIVING force behind every single IIP that is written.

[next wadi]

I think this is a very good summary.
You could add one point that many here think that it could damage Illuvium Beyond overall because the normal waves will not be as attractive anymore.
So maybe we would need the community to vote if they are totally against it just to get an overview.

[vivid osprey]

This is a discussion for an unpassed IIP. Nothing has been decided yet. The tweet is someone being a little trigger-happy as marketing is being prepared and was already mentioned it's being taken down. No one has their hands tied. The community is being engaged and the council will make adjustments to the IIP and eventually vote.

[sacred leaf]

It seems to be difficult finding the happy medium to attract whales but appease the vast majority as well. But putting the announcement on Twitter before the iip was definitely a mistake I don’t think anyone’s denying that.

[hallow crow]

It's removed

[fluid heath]

the segment got removed.

[grave sleet]

Number 1 is a big thing. People had a general idea of the illuvitar drop and been preparing somewhat for it. And to propose an alpha IIP after the illuvitar launch date been announced just makes zero sense. We have no clue how well Illuvitars will do and to already start adding extra layers and premium exclusivity to which adds extra FOMO smells like rotten tuna. And FOMO have been the number one thing Illuvium worked against

[snow palm]

Illuvium = Player 1st

[clear sleet]

so if i understand it correctly, alpha discs contain just the wave 1 illuvitars with a first edition stamp?

[sacred leaf]

I completely agree with this honestly

[clear sleet]

5x the price for a stamp

[next wadi]

in the end it would be more because of the exclusiveness

[brazen radish]

If some people want to pay for that,why does it matter?we are still getting Illuvitar and the Album.

[tawny crystal]

tbh i like the idea of alpha disks but i feel like its a bit too extreme... i think we should either make them only at max x2 the price of the normal ones or just make every minted disk within the first week a alpha and thats it

[clear sleet]

yeah but the first wave is already exclusive, how many people are actually going to buy now compared to when we have open beta

[proven prairie]

Or first 1000 of each Illuvitar

[clear sleet]

not many will read everything here and will feel scammed when 2 weeks later they have the same product for 5x cheaper

[wintry cape]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[next wadi]

yes I agree to that this is why I changed my mind and I am against it.

[snow palm]

I think we have one of the best councils we have ever had, so I am very grateful for that.

I would like to challenge the council to find ways we can improve the communication between the goings on of the council and weighing community sentiment, before just rushing things through and proposing IIPs that clearly don't have the support of the community.

I know thats sort of the point of this channel, but alas Illuvium was already promoting this IIP as though it had already passed, thus undermining the DAO aspect of the project.

[sacred leaf]

I’d like to know if the idea itself was rushed as well. It wouldn’t make sense to have kept it a secret imo

[brazen radish]

<@&814435151307866142> i think it would be beneficial to have a Snapshot vote for ILV holders to gauge community sentiment before a vote is done by the council.

[next wadi]

I think it's not easy for the council as we need to generate some revenue quickly and still please the community and investors (shrimps and whales).
So it's a very hard task.

[ancient wadi]

I think this is decently telling

[clear sleet]

where is this?

[ancient wadi]

Very top

[grave sleet]

Of course that would be approved when all whales votes for being pro alphas

[brazen radish]

a Discord vote? that most people dont see.

[tawny crystal]

i think most ppl are pro alphas right? the question is just how to make it so most ppl are happy with it?

[brazen radish]

Its a Dao

[nocturne trellis]

I’m not sure where the assumption that whales are pro alphas come from.

[clear sleet]

yeah a new announcement will be needed at least

[brazen radish]

End of the day its up to the council.

[nocturne trellis]

I’m not sure that’s true

[grave sleet]

They have most likely a lot of sILV2 to use. That was my assumption

[ancient wadi]

Just saying, this is the people that participate most here

[nocturne trellis]

I have a good amount of SILV2 to use, but I’m pretty sure I’m for scrapping the idea at this point. But I’m not a whale.

[torpid burrow]

On number 3 I had a chat w/ Aaron on this in the illuvitar chat. In order to close out alphas, determine what combinations were unminted, and perform an auction of guaranteed 1:1 alpha illuvitars they cannot be retained indefinitely. I think if alpha illuvitars do end up 100% being a thing, it's ok to force them to be opened and use them purely as a "hype" event. You don't want a hype event where nobody is willing to open their illuvitars because they just want to sell the alphas unopened in 5 years.

[surreal idol]

You know that's not how our governance system works Lars. Please trust that we're reading the feedback here, and many of the points the community has brought up are valid. Like Ani said, this is a draft proposal, it's not law. This will get revised based on the feedback received. This is how our governance system works.

[snow palm]

I can imagine a situation where the council votes against overwhelming community sentiment.
It would probably be the last term for all of those on the council.

[snow palm]

FWIW I think our council is pretty awesome this round.

[devout vine]

i don't like Alpha. put this 30k stumps in main d1sks and let players get it randomly. the price does not need to be changed and will be sold much more standard and mega d1sks

[tawny crystal]

therefore we have hollows no?

[pseudo anchor]

I was excited about the idea of the alphas. Then the price sunk in, now I’m less excited about Illuvitars as a whole.

I don’t think I’ll be the only one with this reaction.

Shame. A little less greed and it would have been a great idea.

The justification of: there are rich dumb people out there who we want to grab all their money… yeah not a great look imo.

[rough stirrup]

I just made an ideas post #1072996138757668884

Im curious what you guys think about an alternate way of integrating alphas. If you have any comments please discuss on the other post to not clog this channel with feedback thats not about this IIP.

[bronze cape]

Why not make Alphas available in the current Mega d1sks as a small chance. Make them only available in those packs for 2 days. Would sell a ton of Megas d1sks and give everyone a equal shot

[snow palm]

bruh, changing plans 30 days before shipping a product is rushed.

Attempting to change plans 30 days before shipping a product is rushed.

[brazen radish]

Fair enough,feedback here might not capture the majority feedback you might need to make a decision.expanding that scope would add to the clarity.

[cedar raft]

Why not just sprinkle alphas in both mega and regular d1sks with original pricing? It would be even more of an excitement to get one of these in a regular pack

At the end of the week you can still sell 1/1s left over

[tawny crystal]

i think the problem here is not that something gets changed 30 before release rather than a lot of ppl having a problem with the changes... if most would be pro changes everything would be fine

[snow palm]

I think we have to agree to disagree that changing product launch details 30 days before shipping is rushed.

[brazen radish]

is it possible to get a channel where Council members could openly discuss their Pros and Cons amongst themself without community feedback?

[torpid coral]

back from a swim, look's like I've missed some exciting dialog

[surreal idol]

It's pretty clear that people have issues with many aspects of the current proposal. I don't think a broader scope would change that.

Additionally, Illuvitars are a product available to anyone, not just ILV holders. We need to be mindful of revenue (particularly as it relates to sILV2 spending), but we also need to consider the community's experience. No one wants a sale that people feel alienated from.

[next wadi]

really like this idea to be honest! Would also incentivises to buy more packs and adds to the addiciton.
but is this even possible to make in such a short time frame.

[snow palm]

If this IIP had made a marked improvement to the product I may agree......

[brazen radish]

a place where council members can dicuss IIP and their thoughs open to the public but not open to feedback from community.if that makes sense?

[grave sleet]

You trying to say a read only chat for councils only to type in

[brazen radish]

Yes😆

[clear sleet]

just livestream meetings lol

[grave sleet]

I don’t like this. So if I’d get a rare illuvitar without the alpha stamp I’d be disappointed when someone else gets that illuvitar with a stamp and that would decrease the value of mine which otherwise would be validated higher if alphas wasn’t a thing. I don’t like that randomness having alphas/standards in the same d1sks. Instead just scrap alphas and actually make rare Illuvitars rare so you get that excitement when you pack something rare

[cedar raft]

It just increases the rarity. Just like a tier 1 compared to a tier 5. There would be no extra cost for the D1sk

[jaunty epoch]

I like the idea of a limited alpha disc sale, driving more profit. It does suck though that we are forced to open them. Not the biggest fan of missed prints or disk conversion. The price does seem a tad bit high as well

[tawny crystal]

yeah but we already have tiers that increase rarity and on top you can get hollows which makes them even more rare if you then also add alphas into that it makes it incredible unlikely to get a t5 holo alpha.... and the few that will ever get minted will be worth way too much xD

[nocturne trellis]

What about a whitelist for anyone holding at least 0.5 ILV (or something low) since June 2022 or something like that.

No increase in cost, 3 normal 1 mega disk limit. With only 10k supply or something like that.

I’m not sure I love this just spitballing. Don’t think alphas in current form can pass

[grave sleet]

So why not replace that alpha stamp with an as rare skin/accessory for the illuvitar

[surreal idol]

Not much would be gained by that from my perspective. We're aware that people can read our thoughts in public channels, and we do share as much as we can, including our own thoughts on proposals.

I will say, alpha disks are not something we've been sitting on for months without sharing. As Scoriox mentioned, it was a relatively recent idea that was brought to us, and I'll acknowledge that communication around the idea could have been better. We're discussing ways to improve those communications so that this doesn't happen in the future. I'm completely on board with the sentiment that additions to the ecosystem should begin with a proposal.

There are a few factors at play, but ultimately it's our fault as a council for not knowing more about this, and bringing it forward sooner. This is clearly something that needs work, and we're already discussing how to ensure it doesn't happen again.

With that said, we can't undo past communications. What we can do is revise this proposal based on feedback, so that's how we'll proceed.

[cedar raft]

That’s fine too. My point is to not charge extra for increased rarities as Mega D1sks already achieve this

[snow palm]

Thank you for taking accountability and seeing the areas that can be improved. Not much more we can ask for!
You rock Blickter.

[fickle furnace]

I know there is a lot for the council to try to read through and this will be my last post.
I think the idea is a brilliant one and it is a shame that it wasn't thought of before Illuvitar marketing happened but it wasn't. You can't have people showing up to the sale on the 7th and having the price 5x. It has the appearance of a bait and switch. That's why I voted no.

Have them run at the same time and I would change my vote, although I don't think the Mega Alpha holds that much more value than than the Standard Alpha. Both have a random Illuvial. The one rare in the Mega could be an accessory, why would I pay 5 times the amount for that when I could buy the non-Alpha Mega for a rare accessory and then Standard Alphas to get all the benefits? Maybe I am missing something.

[wanton nacelle]

The main problem in my mind is lack of clarity about this whole thing. I don't want to offend anyone but IIP is pretty badly written in my opinion. There just isn't enough information. What's the reasons behind this IIP? How will it benefit the Illuvium?

For that reason I think community vote makes no sense, we need more information. If we want something like this implemented fast we need to hold a public forum or a debate with members representing all the sides here.

Everyone has their own ideas and I've seen a lot of good ones. But the first step should be writing the IIP again with more information and reasoning behind the idea.

[brazen radish]

Discord is not a good forum for having these votes,a forum where Council members can share their thoughts unfiltered and without outside noise would be a plus IMO.

[jaunty epoch]

i like the idea of an alpha disk sale that is limited in length, because I know there is a lot of people out there who were excited when they thought the entire first tranche of illuvitar sale would only be one week.

Since then I agree that it makes sense to have this sale go on for a while and extend the revenue stream for it, and so an alpha disk sale on top is a good idea.

I worry about the price of the alpha disks, and it does kinda suck that they function differently than the regular sale. Being forced to open them is lame.

I also am not super keen on having 1st edition stamps because it devalues the rest of the 1st tranche. Why not have a few exclusive items in the alpha disk, like emotes, alpha skin, and other items not related to the actual 1st tranche portraits.

[brazen radish]

Btw,are you enjoying hogwarts?

looking to get it.

[surreal idol]

I mean, skins/emotes are not a bad idea, they are already in the proposal.

[wanton nacelle]

Why can't council members share their thoughts here? Why is outside noise bad? If they have an opinion about something they believe is right they won't change their mind.

[jaunty epoch]

true, im just recommending more of that, and less of the 1st edition stamp. 1st edition stamps combined with the 1st tranche going on for a lot longer than a normal tranche heavily devalues the portraits

[wanton nacelle]

My personal opinion is that the best option is Special Alpha D1sk that will award you only one random Illuvitar with special alpha stamp and special skin/background/something that you can buy for a limited time at a slightly higher cost in the same time as other D1sks.

[brazen radish]

What i ment was that Council members would have a seperate channel for IIp where they could discuss amongst themself open to the public in addion to this one so we could better filter out the noise of this channel,people cant follow all the posts in here.

[marble silo]

The key word is some. Most everyone in here I think sees this being a flop and that would be a rough way to start illuvitars and another lovely blemish on illuviums reputation.

[wanton nacelle]

On that I agree. But it's hard for them to discuss something in the channel when they have already discussed that in meetings before, right?
Maybe a cut out audio from meetings with topics that can be shared is something along that lines?

But making channel with 5-10 minute cooldown would be helpful. People would think about what they are writing and would be easier to follow along for everyone.

[marble silo]

Have we even done a community sentiment voting/discussion on the base price of illuvitars before? I can’t really really remember though when people are paying more than a triple A games price tag for a picture that isn’t the core of the DAO I get dizzy.

[brazen radish]

well some dont mind,and some mind.to me,this will burn Silv and and open up for more Eth usage on the Illuvitar sale,which will bolster the runway which is what we want to expand?

[jaunty epoch]

The thing to keep in mind too is that ideally if we all believe in this project, that these things will be worth something and are easily sellable. You can't really sell a game you bought digitally anymore so. there is that

[marble silo]

So all that we made illuvitars for was to burn silv and scam a few people out of their money? Someone mentioned it before but we shouldn’t be pricing products based on the DAO’s desperation for funds or desire to rid itself of a token that was maybe a mistake.

[wintry cape]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[wanton nacelle]

If it's a PFP project I think the price is just fine. If we want to make a game of collecting, then you have to be a whale to join in to the party. This is 100x more expensive then collecting albums stickers or cards....

[native quarry]

They have that. They just don’t use it at this stage of governance. It’s in the hands of the DAO members right now.

[marble silo]

We aren’t a pfp project though. It’s a pfp product but it isn’t like illuvium is centered around the illuvitars like BAYC is their pfp. Illuvitars is not a ticket to every event, product, and dollar earned. That’s ILV the token for us. So trying to price these at bull run pfp focused prices is asking way too much for most.

[brazen radish]

Honest Question,who thinks this is a money Grab?

[marble silo]

At current prices yes

[brazen radish]

are you buying with SILV or Eth?

[wanton nacelle]

For me, Illuvitars were postponed because they won't be just a PFP, they will be a collection game. But at this currect prices there is no collecting for 90% of the community.

I can buy max few pack every month at this prices. What am I going to collect?

[marble silo]

I wouldn’t touch this with a 10 ft poll if i had all the silv in circulation “at current prices”.

[clear sleet]

its still very expensive even with silv2

[marble silo]

Would you choose a pfp over paying your rent for the month?

[native quarry]

What if there were less alpha versions? Like a hard limit set at 10k. Any that try to mint alpha after the 10k are minted just get 5x as many standard disks

[native quarry]

No one needs to buy the alpha disks.

[wanton nacelle]

There was an interesting topic discussing prices of Illuvials. And it was always said it will be something like collecting cards.

So are Illuvitars higher priced then Illuvials?

[marble silo]

Almost better to set a timer and shut alpha down as soon as say an hour passes without x sales or something for the few that really think it’s worth this much.

[broken zenith]

I don't like the idea of this version of "Alpha" for a few reasons,

1. Limiting the "Opening" of an alpha pack to a period of time is completely against many secondary markets. For example, Alpha packs of pokemon cards can still be bought and opened, but now at higher prices as the value has increased (this delayed gratification of "I could get lucky" should hold true for any alpha packs bought for illuvium: beyond)
2. Alpha packs usually are done via a timeframe of its first production run. When are the designated production runs for ILLUVIUM: BEYOND? We could at least set this up by quarter or year or something? No TCG company is charging extra for a 1st edition run of a card game they hope becomes popular.

[brazen radish]

Ofcourse not,if thats your situation this is not for you

[opal sun]

My first impression is that price is to high and everyone that has been staked for lets say 3months should get guaranteed chance to mint 1alpha disk.

[clear sleet]

what i initially thought is that the alpha ones were exclusive illuvitars apart from the wave 1, then it makes sense now its just a 5x price for the same product with a 1st stamp

[wanton nacelle]

Was talking about Illuvitars, not alpha disks.

[native quarry]

Ok. My mistake

[grave sleet]

And I don’t like bringing up sILV2. If we want to onboard new members we can’t base the price around burning as much sILV2 as possible. New members won’t know what it is nor do they have any since the only official way to get sILV2 is by staking. So a premium ETH price as the alpha currently suggest is not very encouraging for someone without sILV2. If we’re having a launch party I think everyone should be able to ride the hype and be able to mint with the initial standard d1sk prices we’ve already which is reasonable for people to mint with ETH

[brazen radish]

my point was,Most of the poeple buying into Alpha will be using SILV,after alpha is done we would have more exposure to Eth usage compared to Silv,which would give more revenue towards Illuvium Runway.

[marble silo]

Let’s only let people use silv then, no chance for f ups then

[nocturne trellis]

Why not just reject the transaction?

I know that would be possible on Ethereum, is there some technical limitation for IMX that prevents that?

[clear sleet]

i have a certain amount im going to spend on illuvitars, even though its in silv2 i wont increase that amount because there are alpha versions now it just decreases the illuvitars i can get

[brazen radish]

why would it decrease the amount of illuivtars you will get?

[clear sleet]

because if i buy alpha it costs 5x more

[marble silo]

What makes these illuvitars worth more than hundreds of illuvials? Maybe let’s look at it from that perspective considering most recent ideas of what traveling would cost.

[brazen radish]

but you dont need to buy into alpha,unless you want a dinner date with the Warwicks😆

[clear sleet]

it devaluates the normal ones

[native quarry]

Possibly IMX does make that difficult. But even if it is possible, planning to have failed transactions is a lot like planning to have a suboptimal user experience.

[brazen radish]

How?

[native quarry]

By classing them as B grade. Not A grade.

[broken zenith]

I guess the fact of the matter is this, "Alpha is for those with money and so even if you've been a fan of Illuvium for years and don't have the money, guess what, you don't deserve 1st editions."

[marble silo]

30k dinner dates? I don’tthink they can fulfill their obligations in this lifetime xD

[clear sleet]

alphas are more rare?

[tribal gulch]

if we do alpha, perhaps we combine the 25k & 5K d1sks to make it 30k d1sks and then we average the price out to 205 bucks roughly each d1sk and just make each d1sk have a random alpha illuvatar (rare or common) and a couple acessories rather than people paying 600 mistakingly thinking that they are getting a rare alpha illuvitar guaranteed.
same amount of funds are raised...
the alpha thing still happens...

[nocturne trellis]

Would you rather get a failed transaction or 5 normal D1SKs you didn’t want to buy?

Spending money on something you didn’t intend to is a much much worse user experience than a simple failed transaction IMO

[clear sleet]

i get the whole idea of alphas i just dont like that they start the sale with it and you cant get the normal discs too at the start and that they are priced so high

[native quarry]

I think I might agree with you

[nocturne trellis]

I’m kinda liking the idea of an extremely small chance to get an alpha throughout the entire wave. Like 0.1%.

Increases excitement for pack openings even more, doesn’t dilute supply unlike if you only ran it first week. No one feels cheated.

Thoughts?

[nocturne trellis]

Oh and you can still do an auction

[marble silo]

It’s literally like a proper normal card pack then with that tiny chance of getting the signed/stamped card. Much more palatable to card pack fanatics and you can price much fairer while getting the same or more money in the end.

[wanton nacelle]

Then it's just lottery. And we already have "alpha" first wave. And we already have commons and rares, etc.

[brazen radish]

i dont get this,we were all coming together with redistributing Illuvitar sales revenue to a separate pool to expand the runway for Illuvium.Alpha does that on steroids .exactley what we want?

[nocturne trellis]

The point cannot only be to increase runway, it has to also be a better user experience

[marble silo]

Misguided thought that people will pay more money for an image because it fills treasury.

[brazen radish]

where is the user experince reduced?

[jaunty epoch]

The normal discs feel like garbo if it doesnt have a 1st edition sticker

[wanton nacelle]

We will increase the runway by getting more people involved in the project. Alpha disks won't make that happen.

[clear sleet]

communication, i didnt even know about alpha versions but learned it in another discord server

[grave sleet]

Watching from the sideline for a week when the launch party starts would be another thing.

[broken zenith]

The question is what is the higher priority? This completely disrespects those of us with limited funds. I thought I was getting 1st editions already by participating in the first "production" of Illuvitars. Oh, guess what, only those of you who are rich get it AND it doesn't matter if there are those who have been fans for years, only the ones who "paid up" get a chance at meeting the founders...

This is so far outside the normal scope of a TCG (ish) launch that it can only be seen as a money grab.

[nocturne trellis]

1 (somewhat easy fix) is that the sale gets pushed back. Advertised prices already went out for March 7th. This is just a communication issue.

It alters the perceived value of normal rare illuvitars. So even though as Aaron mentioned the total supply of normals may go down so they’re technically more rare. The people who want to buy the rarest illuvitars now go for alpha versions instead of straight for normal holos. Less supply doesn’t always mean greater value when there’s less demand.

I’m not even sold on this opinion. But I think that’s the argument

[slim saffron]

I feel this IIP is totally missing the point what illuvitars should be. It's hard to correct some parts of it when the whole concept is flawed.
illuvitars should kick of the mainstream hype for illuvium. It is a year long sale with new illuvitars every few months. This keeps the community engaged. People are showing their collection. Other people can join even after some months and are not locked out. Even the prices of illuvitars have been reduced last year to attract as many people as possible. Eventually when the game comes out they start playing and spending money in the Overworld. I don't see a single reason where that alpha concept fits in that.
illuvium wants to attract partnerships with big brands for illuvitars. The focus should be to show off that "branded" illuvitars. But everybody will only talk about that stupidly expensive premium (alpha) illuvitar somebody got in a special sale and that will shift away the focus from the normal mainstream illuvitars.

[wanton nacelle]

Wasn't one of the main points of Illuvium always: Everybody start at the same time with equal opportunity. You have to be here first to have the "alpha". But now alpha packs make it like: If you have money you start the game a week early.

[tribal gulch]

well said.

[spring cairn]

Are the Alphas guaranteed to be HOLOs? If so I might be on board😁

[nocturne trellis]

For any competitive nature of things, this is a side thing, collectable

[tribal gulch]

no

[slim saffron]

The fun part is that Aaron wants to auction that 1/1 missed print from the alpha sale to create hype around illuvitars. So why release expensive alphas to kill the hype and then try to auction an alpha for an even higher price to bring the hype back? That looks like illuvium is desperately needing money

[wanton nacelle]

With alphas every 3 months and brand deals in the middle is anybody buying normal Illuvitars?

[spring cairn]

I kinda get this point. Like the holy grail will be Alphas but really all set 1 wave 1s will be holy. idk im on the fence atm about alphas

[tribal gulch]

this reminds me of the way bands scalp their own tickets to their concerts these days because they want to make the resale money rather than allow the ticket brokers to get it.

not saying this is the case but it reminds me of it

[marble silo]

Land sale proposals were handled so much better than this, that’s all i have left to say on this matter. Good luck to us if things go through as they are.

[wanton nacelle]

Was there ever a community discussion about Illuvitar prices after we decided to take the route of a collecting game?

[spring cairn]

Im guessing the team is taking everything we are saying in but it would be cool if they joined the dialog here

[clear sleet]

scoriox and blickter were here earlier

[tribal gulch]

& Ani

[clear sleet]

oh you mean team nvm

[tribal gulch]

ahhh

[spring cairn]

what are your though Scoriox?

If you had to vote right now what would it be yes or no?

[wanton nacelle]

Why no?

[slim saffron]

Illuvium is well known in web3. But I checked some twitter replies to the announcement of illuvitars and the first replies i read have been negative. People are not really getting what illuvitars are.
Why does this pokemon game need some PFP collection? If people did not follow illuvium closely they just see that Illuvium is releasing a PFP collection but they promised a AAA web3 game with competitive battling and esports. So that already sounds like cash grab full of promises and collecting money without ever finishing anything. Keep that in mind. We have to be careful here

[spring cairn]

OK here are my thoughts atm. I would probably only buy 1 or 2 alphas and pray I get one I wanted if I don't I'm sad. I could sell it though so there is that.

[tribal gulch]

@grizzled lion I think if and when the alphas are sold ata premium price point, & with the sale bringing in new people from partnerships etc, then we really need to make sure that it is CLEARLY stated that the odds are much greater to get a rare accesory rather than a rare illuvitar in the mega d1sks when purchasing that d1sks. I just think most if not all of the newcomers will not see that detail and it will cause a lot of bad publicity...

[spring cairn]

I get it but the team is building and all those negative thoughts will go out the window with public launch

[wanton nacelle]

I would actually encourage council members to give us their honest opinions and not just talk privately between themselves and share a doc after that.

[torpid raptor]

Why don't we conduct a Dutch auction for the sale of the 30,000 alpha disks?

This will fix any price or availability issues with the sale.
The free market/the Illuvium community will be able to accurately determine if 5x the price is too much, too little or just right. There's a reason why the land sale was so successful and such an amazing experience for all. It was fair and it didn't favour anyone who had a faster internet connection or an unlimited amount of money.

[spring cairn]

cant in imx at least that is what im told. But I suggested this idea on twitter. Dutch auctions are fun so I wouldent mind doing another one.

[jaunty epoch]

That seems like a lot of work for something so recently added, and was also not advertised. I just have a problem the way the alpha discs are, not just the price. I don't like the 1st edition sticker that devalues the rest of the set, and I don't like that the alpha discs expire

[slim saffron]

Yes. But that is no reason to make people mad now. That alpha D1sks will be released every 3 month. So in 3 month people will get mad again. And the game won't be released by that date. I just see no benefits in alpha d1sks that justify getting bad reputation.

[torpid raptor]

The alpha disks can be sold off imx and the standand on imx.

[spring cairn]

Im sure those same people are mad we are even doing a pfp .

[spring cairn]

they do already have everything set up for it

We can even collect data from the Alpha sale to determine the real sale price on the normal Illuvitars

[broken zenith]

This

[spring cairn]

oh shooot then noooo

[torpid coral]

Amen

[quasi idol]

The main point here is that this is being made to burn silv2.
The land sale got 90% of silv2. So if illuvitars get this same %, we are NOT reaching those $ 15M for the runway.
Runway is the most important thing here it determines the future and the tranquility of the team.
So yes, lets burn those silv2 and fill the Vault with eth

[jaunty epoch]

Not if the players are getting subpar and half baked product in return imo

[torpid coral]

Don't love the idea of a Dutch auction, lower the price, increase the accessibility, widen the audience, attract new people to the DAO & focus on the FUN in the Product which is the Collecting & PFP aspect.

Again, there is still rarity to be found!

[wanton nacelle]

I would disagree. Main point is to bring as many players as possible to the project.

[torpid coral]

Imagine spending $10,000 and not unboxing a T5 or a Holo

[spring cairn]

right, im still now convinced the prices are not too high atm for regular Illuvitars

[torpid coral]

Illuvium is an IP that will change the game, not follow the herd

[nocturne trellis]

The bigger the supply of alphas the less and less people care about normals

[torpid raptor]

Everything Illuvium has released so far has been top tier. If the community wants alpha disks, it should be done right and not rushed.

[quasi idol]

But yes, we need something better than a stamp to justify the 5x price

[slim saffron]

So we are building up hype. Everybody gets excited. They see that illuvitars might be good. We make huge launch party. And then everybody comes together just to realize that they have to pay 5x the price that has been promised. What if the alphas will not sell out fast? And even if they sell out. People that have been hyped up are upset. They have to come back some days later just to buy "second class" d1sks? It just does not feel good.

[nocturne trellis]

That being said if rewards from collections are good enough normals will have great value regardless. But we don’t know what those are going to be

[wanton nacelle]

If you only get the Illuvitar in alpha pack you need to buy "normal" packs for accessories. (you don't need to but there is a reason to buy)

[nocturne trellis]

Idk if I would put accessories on my alphas

Probably not tbh

[tribal gulch]

I wouldn't

[slim saffron]

Maybe the team should talk again what they want. Do we want to bring in as many people as possible or do we want an expensive collection. We should not mix that up

[torpid coral]

Were Pokemon 1st Editions limited to 20,000 packs?

5 years down the line Alpha's will still be incredibly rare even if we make them more accessible for the players HERE NOW

[tribal gulch]

I don't even want to put them on no alpha ones

[nocturne trellis]

Thereby devaluing wave 1 normals. Because if people go into it with a pure collectable mindset and think “I want the rarest shit from the first wave” they go to alphas. Honestly I didn’t think this to be true at the start of the day but I’ve kinda convinced myself it is. Can someone tell me why that wouldn’t be true?

[cinder osprey]

100% my thoughts. I finally got access here to talk. I grew up with Pokemon cards, I still have my collection. I look back at my 1st edition cards and think I got these because I was early. Not because I paid more for them

[wanton nacelle]

But if Illuvitars are a collection game. What are we collecting, who can get the rarest Illuvitar? Or who can collect all the water type Illuvitars?

Btw. collecting 10 Illuvitars at the currect pricing would be a minimum of $250. No collecting game ever (stickers, cards, anything) was that expensive.

[tribal gulch]

wave 1 : set 1 should be enough to be considered alpha (not saying they need a stamp)
I am just saying that as time goes on, and a couple more waves come out and are retired than the 1st wave will have value. This is why some of the best illuvials were put in wave 1 in my opinion.

[torpid coral]

I'd like to think we cap Alpha's at 60k, 75k or so.. enough that everyone who want's to buy into Alpha's has an opportunity.

They don't need to be so insanely rare that they devalue non-Alpha's. I'll still buy Non-Alpha's to complete collections.

[grizzled coral]

what's the benefit of an alpha disk?

[wanton nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/stamp-cork-stamp-custom-stamp-diy-stamp-diy-gif-16362035

[torpid coral]

This, it shouldn't be a focus on who has the biggest wallet but who made the effort to complete collections early and took the risk of buying to secure the first run of mints.

[cinder osprey]

Do unlimited alpha mints for 72 hours at the same price. Then go 3 months with the standard discs

[wanton nacelle]

Who would buy discs for the other 3 months after the alpha sale?

[grave sleet]

I like you. If people haven’t followed this thread. Just search up this mans comments. They all make perfect sense. You phrase your comments very well sir.

[slim saffron]

I mean we can still have alphas. It can even help the hype.
If we make a huge launch party at launch day then just label every illuvitar from that day 1 as alpha. Every illuvitar sold in the first 24 hours is an alpha illuvitar. For every set. That means you can get alpha illuvitars only on 1/90 days (the first 1,1% of the time period). Price stays the same. Nobody cares that these alphas have higher print numbers. Everybody can participate. And (ignoring the fact that day one will have the most sales) alphas will only be around 1-2% (probably slightly higher) of a whole set. This is what I call a fair launch

[slim saffron]

Thanks. I really appreciate you 🙂

[grizzled coral]

i like the idea of not limited but timed, but i would even be okay with no alpha, set 1 is set 1.... wave 1 is wave 1, wave 2 follows in a couple months... then wave 1 is gone, seems like the goal is to try to mass sell based on the hype and alpha, but it also kinda irks me, not really sure how I feel tbh

[torpid coral]

Agree, the Launch Party Event is going to be 20x better than Land with the Page we have prepared.

[grizzled coral]

if for some reason someone mass buys and I dont get an alpha, i'd be super pissed and probably not participate

[wanton nacelle]

Everybody suggesting the same thing now. And I agree with that. But do you think that we wouldn't be able to sell anything after the alpha sale?

[torpid coral]

We have live data feeds that include highest power Illuvitars minted, rarest Holo's etc so everyone can see who's minting the best

[quasi idol]

How about 5x the chance of get a holo for the alpha?

[grizzled coral]

but there was also a reason for the set.... so they didnt not sell a certain one or something due to rng? thats info I am missing

[wanton nacelle]

Feels more like lottery then a collection game?

[cinder osprey]

That really shouldn't matter. If I plan on spending 10 silv2 on these, I will spend it all in the first 72 hours. In the current model I will have no reason to spend right away so Ill spend a little bit a first, then maybe I decide I dont want anymore because I can buy cheaper on the secondary market

[torpid raptor]

This fixes alot of the concerns

[slim saffron]

Then let's do it. Imagine the hype and excitement coming together as a community and still getting a small early adopter bonus for being here when everything starts by getting your alpha.

[quasi idol]

Collectors goes for the Disks and Mega disks
Alpha is something riskier

[torpid coral]

Absolutely man, if the pricing isn't cost prohibitive we have EVERYONE streaming, in social channels minting boxes etc

It becomes far more viral

[grizzled coral]

why do we need a bonus, the bonus is we are getting set 1 hehe

[spring cairn]

Oh this is cool!!

[nocturne trellis]

That’s an interesting way to put it. Make alphas not all too rare that it kinda inverts on itself? Idk if I buy it. All of the sudden you can complete collections while also collecting alphas. Need to think about it.

[wanton nacelle]

Now I'm starting to think that everybody buying packs on the first day and opening them is a great idea.

[nocturne trellis]

Everyone to increase power and complete collections

[torpid coral]

I imagined I'd be completing my collections with 5-10% of the Illuvitars potentially being Alpha

[cinder osprey]

I also feel like the standard packs are going to have very little value if the Alphas are 5x in price. Instead of buying as much as I can I'd end up giving up on this sector of Illuvium. I'll get one for a pfp and save for other things

[slim saffron]

Yes. And nobody will be locked out if he misses the event because they can still buy illuvitars afterwards. But by doing that we can even benefit from people that miss our first launch party by getting a bigger second launch party where more people want to get an alpha. Followed by a 3. launch part for set 3 with even more people that don't want to miss out on their alpha. Which makes set 1 alphas still kind of rare because coming out of bear market I think for set 1 we might have the lowest participants on day 1.

[torpid coral]

This is getting me excited ha ha

[wanton nacelle]

I can't wait for the launch day. Let's go....

Oh, wait...

[torpid coral]

It's worth noting that these numbers can be tweaked once we have a decision. The heavy lifting is mostly done, let's get feedback to the council and get this right.

[slim saffron]

Me too. Need to hype myself up again after reading that disappointing IIP 😂

[wanton nacelle]

While we're at it, can we also discuss pricing once again?

[slim saffron]

Just drop that 5x and go back to normal pricing. That's all I can say

[wanton nacelle]

No, I'm talking about the regular pricing and how that needs to be lowered as well.

[grave sleet]

Just please scrap alpha and please stick to an initial idea for ones. Illuvitars felt so great with how it was presented but the idea of alphas just made the card house collapse for me

[tribal gulch]

600 per mega,
avg 2 rare alpha illuvitars out of 10 d1sks (roughly)
3000 starts floor for rare alpha illuvitars

[grizzled coral]

its hard for us to determine pricing withouut really understanding the collections and costs with that

[wanton nacelle]

that's what i was saying... we don't have enough information

[grizzled coral]

do we at least know the current amount required to complete the entire catalog, i realize some cross count and will reduce..

[slim saffron]

Or just tag day 1 illuvitars as alpha and that's it. Just a small bonus for everybody. Nothing crazy and no overhead. And people participating the launch party would feel special for getting their alpha. But I can't say more to that IIP. We need a more detailed and better concept before we can tweak the details.

[wanton nacelle]

What I'm afraid is that collecting one page of the album is like $1000.

[grave sleet]

Yeah I liked that idea you presented earlier. That would be something I’d be willing to call alphas.

[wanton nacelle]

Just imagine how hype that 24 hours stream from Illuvium would be with everybody buying packs and opening them.

[grizzled coral]

what about Alpha is a timed x day event, but they must be opened to be marked alpha, because I think to switch to regular all must be opened already or they change

[marble silo]

Except that most people would open a pack and then they would be done even at $120. Event would be exciting for an hour at most and everyone is out of money and packs to open.

[grizzled coral]

that way, it promotes people to open them, not resell them

[slim saffron]

Yes, might be expensive. On the otherside we don't have all the details yet. So a collection game can take years to be completed. I think it doesn't make much sense when you can complete it easily in some days by paying 100$. Just take it as mini game. You can always use some profits from the main game to extend your collection. No need to finish it asap. There is no value or achievement in completing a collection when it is too easy or when everybody has multiple full albums

[wanton nacelle]

But you will either collect or you won't. For everyone it will be either PFP project or collection project. If you can't afford to collect anything anyways, you won't even try.

[marble silo]

So no collectible card game makes sense because you could feasibly collect every card in a set for ‘just’ a couple hundred. That’s probably too much bias towards every gamer/collector apparently being rich or at least upper middle class.

[native egret]

I agree you net simular or more revenue by allowing more people to buy. You would have to increase the Alpha supply/make it unlimited mint but windowed before phasing alpha sale out and unlimited in. Yet you fix the potential bad optics/issues people can have.

[broken zenith]

This is a bad look guys. I can feel the anxiety of the team to build runway from this post alone...

[cinder osprey]

I have a set amount of sILV2 I want to spend regardless of the price. Raising the prices wont get more value out of me and I think that would be the case for most people

[marble silo]

Just saying. Charizard cards don’t sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars because they were $120 to get on the first print…

[wanton nacelle]

Do we really think that Illuvium will earn more money with selling alpha packs at 5x the price?

[broken zenith]

I think they'll get less

[slim saffron]

I get your point. But is it really a game if you just have to throw money in and get a whole collection out? I know it is not cheap. I am pretty sure I won't have every collection completed because it will be too expensive. But I just don't see it as a big issue. I am just excited and want to see how far i can get

[frail elbow]

I have the same idea, first 24h of the sale all the packs are alpha, no limited amount at the regular price, it helps with marketing and boosts sales with the feeling of scarcity and limited time. Its also nice for everyone involved in the project for some time as they know the rules and have the benefit of being among first buyers ⌚

[cinder osprey]

It makes me feel like the standard discs are worthless so I likely won't spend anything on them. Maybe Ill get one alpha for the pfp

[broken zenith]

If this passes, I'm not buying Illuvium: Beyond cause I know that some whale is gonna make everything I buy worthless as it's not 1st edition (even if I've been a loyal member longer). This is clearly P2W

Correct. Let's have it like all other "Alpha" releases....it's the first release of a franchise and that's it. No increase in price. Just the first "run" of cards.

[grizzled coral]

ffirst define at this point, why you need an alpha, whats the point of it?

[cinder osprey]

Let it be an incentive to buy early in each wave

[broken zenith]

I disagree completely. Having played a lot of TCG, Alpha is the first "set" and 1st edition is the 1st run of cards for each set. So Alpha 1st Edition is a special class of it's own. I'd say then you are wanting 1st editions moreso than alphas then

[marble silo]

What makes it a game in the first place? All you do is spend money rn. There is no game, only collection. And what part of selling at outrageous prices get your heart pumping. If pokemon or yugioh decided to sell packs for $100 base msrp their headquarters would be burned down in a night.

[broken zenith]

The bigger question is how do we specify a "run" for our releases? Is it the first day of a set release that get's you the "1st edition" stamp? Because ultimately "Alpha" will and should in the future refer to set 1 as a whole (just like MTG did it).

[wanton nacelle]

What makes collecting fun for me is knowing I have a chance to collect all of them. With Illuvitars at current pricing I don't have a chance to collect one page in an album.

[spring cairn]

Illuvitars was suppose to be fun. $500 pfp is not fun and people who do spend their hard earned money on one and dont get the one they want are gonna be sad.

[wanton nacelle]

The same amount of money is spent at day one that it would otherwise be spent in 3 months?
What are the reasoning behind less money earned that way?

[grizzled coral]

if you think about it, if you are collecting it, you wont be selling it, i dont think there is any value in the future, as it will be irrelevant, outside of someone going, oh wow, i got a alpha, its a pfp, that will sell on its look more than some icon symbol... i dont see this as whale flex at all

[cinder osprey]

I disagree. I plan on spending X amount of $ on these. It will just incentize me to spend it all early instead of waiting to see the secondary market and possibly not buying any disks.

[grizzled coral]

like I gotta have the alpha, its rare on its own

[wanton nacelle]

Non of my friend that are not into Illuvium will start collecting something where the price of one item is that high.

[spring cairn]

I would be so much happier to have 20 Illuvitars for say $1,000 than 2 Aphas.

[grizzled coral]

at this time, unless more info arises, i can care less about alpha... means nothing to me, probably reduces hype on day 1

[wanton nacelle]

I would also argue that everybody will wait for the last day to buy otherwise because they might find something they like in secondary, and if not, buy packs the last day. Again 3 months of not buying.

Illuvitars don't have to be a constant revenue every day. It enough if they are a lot of revenue every 3 months.

[cinder osprey]

Yes exactly my point. I would just wait till the end and possibly not even buy

[marble silo]

Gotta get that card game going so people have a reason to buy mid season, though again easily accessible secondary market removes a lot of reasons to buy random card packs.

[broken zenith]

I want the IIP to revolve around defining the difference between "Alpha" and "1st Edition" as it stands for Illuvium.

"Alpha" - the first set released by Illuvium (a.k.a. Wave 1)
"1st Edition" - any and all disks purchased within the first 24 hours of a new set/wave release

All this for the same price. For all other TCGs these descriptions refer to "timing" and we should have it be the same for Illuvium: Beyond.

Using the above descriptions, the Launch Party, will be the ONLY chance to get ALPHA 1ST EDITION ILLUVITARS...now that has a nice ring to it....

[slim saffron]

TCG means trading card game. So the game is trading your cards. When I was young I never bought any pokemon cards. I went to my class mates and they gave me their worthless duplicates. From there on I used them to trade my way up and getting better and more shiny cards xD
So just buy some cards and see what you get. To complete your collection you can try to trade your way up. In the end you still need money. But that would be the way I would approach it if I want to complete a collection. I just don't think lowering the prices fixes that. 1$ has different value in every country. Sadly you cannot find a price that will enable everybody to finish a collection. In the end the DAO wants to make some money too.

[grizzled coral]

if your goal is to complete collections on a budget buying any d1sks might not be the way to go, however you do need accessories to customize your used one

and im sure you can buy accessories as well..

either way... transactions happen and thats the goal of illuvium

[graceful citrus]

You are my spirit animal and i have agreed with everything you said tonight!! #PREACH!

[marble silo]

And again, pokemon and yugioh are struggling oh so much at 3-4$ card packs aren’t they :p But no, you are right. Regardless, it should remain fairly evident that your audience for $100-$600 jpegs at this point in cryptos maturation is one Lars out of every 200k+ discord degens.

[spring cairn]

I feel like HOLO set 1 wave 1 Illvuitars is what everyone really wants anyways. Please dont make to too rare

[grizzled coral]

naah, i just want a rypter 😄

[graceful citrus]

WEN TOWN HALL to openly discuss this? 👌

[spring cairn]

But if I had one regular and one HOLO rypter you would pick the HOLO everytime

[marble silo]

Illuvium has really no following atm and especially has near zero kids and teens that will be buying illuvitars so $3-4 type pricing won’t bring the results it could if they were more present in crypto.

[grizzled coral]

depends on the look, im not a big skin guy.... and glitter and gold dont always sell me

[slim saffron]

It is just everything more expensive in crypto. Can't deny that 😄

[spring cairn]

fair enough

I would pick a HOLO squizz over a Alpha squizz anyday.

[marble silo]

Illuvium could idk, maybe lead the pack in getting rid of the expensiveness stigma? But that’s not what Illuvium is about. We want to do things based on what’s succeeded in crypto which is rely on apes with too much spare money :p

[wanton nacelle]

My opinion is that with current pricing I'll own 2 Illuvitars max.
If the pricing would be 10x lower I would own at least 20x more Illuvitars.

[primal cairn]

Just buy normal illuvitars, not the alphas ones

[wanton nacelle]

I'm not talking about alpha ones. I'm talking about Illuvitars.

[grizzled coral]

normal might have rare i would imagine, just not guarantee'd

[slim saffron]

You should not forget that you can make fast money in crypto. That's why people spend more. But I agree we need to find a balance that non crypto people buy too. But sometimes high quality is not enough. A high price adds to the premuim feeling of a product

[marble silo]

I just laugh thinking we want illuvials to be affordable but when it comes to a in game profile picture that any web2 game would give you for getting achievements or let you make yourself for free we think it’s fine to price it in hundreds of dollars because all the now defunct or near dead bullrun pfp projects did it.

[wanton nacelle]

Nobody knows what the purpose of Illuvitars even is because it was never shared with the community....

[marble silo]

Just think too about if we ever add a real card game or some other illuvitar based game how only five people can make a deck because no one else can afford it

Granted I’d probably expect illuvitars to just be special card art and still use illuvials as representation for owning the card itself

[wanton nacelle]

Card game where a started deck costs $1499.

[marble silo]

Sells pc to buy cards… no longer has pc to run game. Sells cards to buy pc…

[pliant vector]

u wont be able to buy without a PC lolll

[marble silo]

Meh, mobile can access market. Just can’t handle the incredibly detailed card renders

And 3d models that project out of them

[grizzled coral]

does alpha have utility, having one in my wallet give me special access to a alpha chat room and investing opportunities

[snow palm]

I know we have an extremely capable team to make improvements with a new IIP, I'm not worried at all.

[naive mortar]

Hey all, apologies, I just wanted to share I was unable to follow the chat live after the initial posting, but I’ve read through every word of this discussion. As always, I appreciate this community and willingness to share their personal perspectives, as well as their DAO perspectives (not always at the same time). I have a lot of thoughts on this discussion and will figure out the right way to share (rather than bomb paragraphs here). Just know, all of your thoughts are being considered.

[fiery thunder]

awaiting paragraph

[tender crag]

I think this proposal would drastically reduce the demand for non alpha D1sks. This sale should be a celebration of the launch of Illuvium: Beyond. This would cause Alpha to most likely sell out, but then see demand fizzle afterwards. Instead of selling alpha separately I think Alpha Illuvitars should be included in this first edition run and be available at low odds in the mega D1sk at .075. This will further incentivize the sale of mega D1sks and with no limit on these it could ultimately bring in more revenue than an alpha sale would have. It will also add to the excitement as alpha Illuvitars are found in mega D1sks spurring on more and more sales. Imagine ripping packs live and finding an alpha Illuvitar? We want these viral moments. Pre determining which are alpha and which aren’t would take those moments away from us.

[broken zenith]

Honestly, I’d rather read the paragraphs bombs here so that we can see who on the council has the same views that each of us have…

[snow palm]

I second this idea, completely fair launch, the hype would be MASSIVE. equal opportunity for everyone within 24 hours. Would be a blast to mint.

[grave sleet]

But it doesn’t make sense having something called alpha together with standards in the same d1sk. This was discussed earlier too. But I think @slim saffron idea is the best if we really need to have alphas..that being minted Illuvitars during the first 24 hours are alphas, for the same price as standards then that’s it.

[broken zenith]

@naive mortar when an iip is presented like the one above, can we start to include each council members initial reasonings and thoughts behind it? I think that would help not only guide the discussion but also help us as a dao select council members that align with our views/ideals

[grizzled coral]

there's no point for alpha then, no one would care... the whole thing makes no sense to me now... its almost putting a scar on my illuvatars face... basically it seems you all want a reward for getting it day 1.... then give everyone on day 1 to 3 a 5% discount and leave it alone

[wanton nacelle]

This has to be the standard going forward. Not just presenting IIP's and voting on it.

[naive mortar]

We can take this out of this chat, but we've gone back & forth on level of detail in proposals. Right now, less is more in terms of rationale shared. You don't have to convince me to be more wordy, and give reasoning. Its a balance of sharing rationale versus ensuring the proposal is open to feedback. In this case, I think more would obviously been helpful.

[wind ridge]

Just started catching up on this thread so not sure what everyone elses thoughts are but imo, the alpha packs should be 1.5-2x the price of regular packs 5x is just insane. We shouldnt limit the total number of alpha packs to prevent boting but lower the days of availability below 7

[rough stirrup]

I think this is pretty much the community consensus. Sounds like a lot of council members were expecting pushback on this proposal so hopefully the necessary changes get made.

[naive mortar]

that's what this is - its an idea for feedback. i guarantee you revisions will happen to the proposal based on this channel. The thumbs up system is more informal. this is a unique case where illuvitars were expected (and leaked), and it is a sprint to gather feedback and do the right thing for the DAO.

[nocturne trellis]

I’m leaning more and more towards no specific alpha sale. Tiny chance for an alpha in any or only mega D1SKs. Increase hype, increase revenue.

[grave sleet]

Yeah I still don’t see any point whatsoever having something called alpha

[wanton nacelle]

What I’m saying is that we never hear personal opinions from council members. Seems like every IIP is universally liked by all the council members.

[wind ridge]

I like the alpha sale idea just think the initial proposal numbers are insane

[pliant vector]

I like the idea of Alpha, just not 5X. RNG alpha is not good imo

[naive mortar]

i voted no on spiders. just saying...

[clear sleet]

spiders?

[wanton nacelle]

No way everyone on the council thought this was a good idea and only now think something needs to change.

[primal cairn]

I see alphas like buying a Rolex.

A watch is a watch. Everyone can buy a watch. And any watch will show you the same hour.

But the luxury have a price and only a few can afford one.

Doesn’t shock me. This exclusivity is everywhere.

I mean, the simple fact the team knows they may have to generate 1/1 to have at least one of each available, shows that they don’t expect a lot of sale.

And if there are a lot, you just save the whole project.

Alpha are unique, luxury.

I just see people not liking to be priced out. The same way people didn’t liked to be priced out for t4 lands.

Doesn’t feel good when the exclusivity slip from your hands. But it doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.

@naive mortar

[naive mortar]

in seriousness, we have a lot of discussions and there are differences of opinion. where we end up in discussions is often very different than where we start as other perspectives are shared. In the end, we hope that we are approving something that is best for the DAO. If a council member doesn't come around to approve, they are welcome to do so and post their reasoning. the fact we've negotiated a position we aligned with in recent votes doesn't mean we are all in agreement throughout.

[tender crag]

I think if only 30k can get the first edition alpha stamp then it greatly reduces the ability to collect all first edition Illuvitars like so many us loved to try and do with Pokémon cards. It would be unattainable for most. All first wave Illuvitars should get a first edition stamp. They are all first run. It may be better to not have alpha at all and just let Holo take care of rarity. Alpha may be over complicating things.

[clear sleet]

you are right if they are unique and luxury it has a point, but they are exactly the same as the wave 1, just a 1st stamp on it

[mental eagle]

I like first 24hr Alpha Idea with perhaps a small premium.

Just speaking personally as someone who intends to spend a certain amount of sILV2 on Illuvitars. If alpha was just first 24 hours. I would spend a large portion maybe all of my allotted sILV2 on the first 24hours. Especially if the launch day is fun (Im sure it will be with our community).

This will lead me to have a bunch of unfinished collections. Now I'm hooked... like I am with I:Zero and OW.

I end up spending more than I intended because the Illuvium team executed a super fun addictive card collecting game.

[marble silo]

It can be rebranded too. Put them into normal packs and drop the alpha tag and make them their own rarity. Other ccgs do stamps and signatures. If you want to limit them though, do a bonding curve or true max amount before the code doesn’t produce them in packs.

[grizzled coral]

i dont think the fear is them not minting 1 one everything, but to be sure there is x/x of everything for the market down the road... it is a game and there needs to be x amount of pieces to complete that game, imagine if only 2000 could complete EVER because of this initial batch

[wanton nacelle]

There are better ways of making luxury Illuvitars, not just giving them a stamp and selling them in limited collection a week early.

[primal cairn]

Yep

[clear sleet]

thats not unique and luxury to me

[primal cairn]

To you yeah. To other maybe no.

And to other maybe I’ll justify the price.

[clear sleet]

looking at other people here that arent that many

[grave sleet]

“Only” 30k..it’s a lot in our web3 space though. But yes indeed. Alpha feels unnecessary. Wave 1 is the first drop so let that be the OG drop on its own like it is.

[grizzled coral]

alpha extremely unnecesarry, count me out, unless you can explain alpha in the first place, noone seems to be able to.. there was a reason aaron was mentioning and something to do with "misprints"

[tender crag]

30k is a lot right now, but if millions of players play Illuvium that will be very small.

[clear sleet]

playing illuvium doesnt mean you are buying an alpha illuvitar PFP

[mental eagle]

What do you think the ratio would be if the price was lower say 1.5x?

[grizzled coral]

zero

[mental eagle]

my guess it would be reversed.

[grave sleet]

I’d still vote no because I don’t like the alpha thing. Personal opinion

[grizzled coral]

have no interest in paying more, for something to have stuck to it to flex, defeats the whole purpose of the card imo... wont buy one, guaranteed, can care less if it was same price

im done, bye

[grave sleet]

A pack of 1st edition Pokémon cards were initially sold for around $3 when they launched. A box (10 packs?) for 90-100$. To compare with something similar. Sealed boxes today can be sold for like 400k

[slim saffron]

But why do we need luxury in the first place? Do we want a collection that brings in many players or do we want a limited PFP like BAYC that appreciates in price? People that want to flex can still buy their favourite holo illuvitar on the secondary market. That would be the luxury part.

But I said my stuff. I am out for today and hope to see a bigger change in the IIP

[spring cairn]

Myself I am more excited about the Illuvitar plate box "misprint" first editions 😁

[naive mortar]

Let me start with saying I hope the Illuvium DAO is a huge success, and continues to broaden its appeal. To do so, it will create products that attract more individuals. I sincerely hope most people here don’t buy EVERY product Illuvium develops, but rather the DAO develops a diverse portfolio that appeals to different groups, united under the umbrella of Illuvium’s IP.
There are a variety of forces at play with Illuvitars, particularly with the Alpha d1sks. Many here draw similarities to TCGs and other collectable card games, and view everything from that perspective. The similarities are obvious, so it is understood. However, it is a more elaborate PFP offering that has been developed into a collectable game. That is the role it fulfills in the DAO ecosystem.
Being involved in the web3 space, I think we can all admit there are status symbols with little/no functionality that fetch a huge price to individuals fulfilled by rarity and status (BAYC?). This isn’t me, and it may not be you, but those individuals exist. Products offered to them, just like Lelahel’s Rolex example, may appeal to you, but are out of reach. In the case of Illuvium Beyond, Alphas offer no functionality beyond that.
The question is will they sell at the listed price? If yes, then they were priced correctly (or too low). If they don’t sell, they may have still been priced optimally, but that’s a different economics discussion.
Does this impact your ability to participate in Illuvium Beyond? Not functionally, but there is emotion behind being excluded from the parallel to being involved in the first day of this important product launch.
This is an opportunity for the DAO to attract a different clientele that may not have been interested in the project otherwise. Some people don’t care if their PFP was one of 100, or even 1 of 10. This is an initial offering where there’s a potential to get a truly unique NFT that no one else will ever have in a DAO that is redefining web3 gaming.

Does this have parallels to other projects, both positive, and negative in perception? Yes. Does this potentially exclude some individuals? Yes. Does it introduce risk whether the price paid is what it will be worth on the secondary market? Yes. But that is the allure and prestige to some, just maybe not you.
The DAO needs to be open to creating some products that are alienating to broaden their reach. Alpha D1sks offer a way to do that, and it is presented in a way that doesn’t prohibit any participation in any actual game.
Alphas may exist on another plane, and those of us in this discussion may think 10 years from now “that was dumb, why did they do that?” or “why didn’t I buy one chance at that 1 of 1 Rhamphyre for just 0.375 ETH.” We don’t know. But just because you don’t like a product doesn’t mean its bad, it may just mean you’re not the intended audience. This case is further complicated because of the similarity of the Alpha product to the Wave 1 release that most of you are asking for here.
I’m with you – I’m not a mega whale, and elements of this proposal actually alienate me from the level of involvement I may have done with changed parameters. However, I need to take this discussion with a holistic view of growing and sustaining the DAO into what is best for Illuvium.

(you asked for paragraphs, there you go - I love being devil's advocate to share a different perspective)

[grave sleet]

If us who’s against alpha d1sks aren’t the targeted audience. At least don’t put us on the side bench at launch party making us watch from the side for a week until we can open ours. If alphas have to be a thing (strongly against my will lol, never mind) have them launched at the same time as the standards.

Appreciate your paragraph and will await the council discussion

[mental eagle]

THIS I'm personally fine with Alpha if it wouldn't negatively affect the DAO. But I think it will for sure limit the participation of launch day and that limitation on hype will hurt the sales and bring fewer actual gamers into the ecosystem.

[fierce mango]

My thoughts

• (30k) alpha disks would destroy the market for non-alphas
• alpha disks would be quickly bought away by bots if they were all sold at once
• increasing the price to 5x just to fend off bots doesn't make sense to me
• I understand the appeal of "exclusivity", although that's actually what the holos (and tiers) are there for?!
• if there are to be alpha illuvials then I would put them in the normal disks (both mega and "standard") for the entire 3 months with a low probability of being drawn

[jaunty epoch]

I actually am not opposed to alpha discs, I just don't like what's being offered in them. I don't like that they inherently devalue the rest of the collection. Offer more of the skins and exclusive things that we wouldn't find in a regular illuvitar disc! The first edition stamp really bothers me, and makes the rest of the buyers feel like they got a lesser product.

I also don't like that you can't hold on to the disc as was advertised and that it has to be open.

[slim saffron]

I find that comparison a little bit dangerous. BAYC grew into a status symbol. You are forcing alpha illuvitars into a status symbol by telling your customer it is better because the price is higher. I don't think that is the right approach. We already have rare illuvitars in the d1sks that can be used as status symbol and won't be affordable by many. But maybe i just don't understand that product at all.

[rough stirrup]

Ok now it makes sense. I thought I was part of the target audience for illuvitars but it turns out I’m not.

[tawny crystal]

I think the problem is we wanna sell two different products at the same time and everyone wants to see it more as one or the other thing

These two beeing PFPs and a TCG and if you want to optimize one of them the other one kinda suffers from that

[fiery thunder]

as illuvitars was before the addition of Alpha there was no incentive to buy in the first week rather than wait for near the end of the 3 month sale to see how it develops first, only reason to buy at start is to buy 1 or 2 just to open and experience what its like before buying more near the end of the sale (or DCA along the way, whatever...)

Alpha is a great idea to add incentive to buy more at the start, not just at the end, if alpha is as it is now but unlimited supply for that week and at the same price as the rest of the sale or even 1.25x more then it has a genuine value proposition that is added, alongside these changes the D1sks themselves should retain alpha status if un-opened, and we should forget all about the missed prints auction

this way the DAO can capture maximum revenue whilst staying true to the ethos the project started out with

want to create a more premium product in addition to Alphas (1st editions) and Normals (2nd editions)
then create 2 or 3 Special Edition Backgrounds, make 1 of every Illuvitar combinations with those 2 or 3 background and sell all of these as 1 of 1 Special Editions via ETH only Auctions, (once the 3 months is over then this should take place) this way instead of few missed prints auctions we have a good few more and an entire product line for those with the money to bid on it, win win

Special Editions, 1st Editions and 2nd Editions all function identically as far as the collectors app is concerned, 3rd editions can be minted in future that have no collectors app utility but are usable in a card game only (if a card game develops out of illuvitars will need more supply to make the game playable)

there is no risk to this approach, no hurt feelings, maximum capture of value whilst not just extracting value from your community and not risking being labelled as a cash grab, if our founders can chat shit about other projects they should expect their own project to be held to those standards, we're creating the best project in web3, lets act like it

Thank You @naive mortar for playing devils advocate and giving me the opportunity to give this response

[mental eagle]

I am fine going after higher paying customers. But is Illuvitars the best product for "individuals fulfilled by rarity and status" perhaps not? I fear it has a potential to turn off the original intended audience and perhaps not even attract the whales we want.

Once upon a time Illuvitars had free t0s so everyone could get one.

[torpid coral]

amen, this.

[snow palm]

This IIP feels Web 3 circa 2021...

[fiery thunder]

yh I suspect whales dont like being farmed for value

[torpid coral]

Fun, Inclusivity, Community first and foremost

Disrupt Web2, not follow Web3 2021 as you said

[slim saffron]

Why don't you just release the product. Let the people see what it is. Let them enjoy the quality and the collection game. And then afterwards you release some limited edition of some illuvitars that are actually different from the standard collection. Then everybody can decide if its worth the money. But right now you don't have any product, nobody really knows what to expect and people should purely based on hype buy the premium Version first before they can even see what the real product is. And the only premium part is the price with no difference from the standard product. That feels so wrong.

[snow palm]

This should be engrained in our ethos.

[fiery thunder]

I thought this always was our ethos and I think its the reason why we still have so many loyally supporting this project

we must not deviate from this for sure

[snow palm]

For the most part everyone has been very respectful, even with heated disagreements. Thats a silver lining here, we're all on the same team.

[spring cairn]

Took a lot of reading peoples opinions but gonna click thumbs down on this IIP. If yall wanna keep first editions make them random in packs like holos. It would be the equivalent to opening a pack of baseball cards and getting a guys rookie card.

[torpid pawn]

If this is the case, why not the best of both worlds.

Have the mint contact assign packs with a hash that is not interpretable by the community (we don't know what is in it) but is by the opening process and the team.

This way the team/contract can know exactly what was minted and create and sell the 1/1s and the community can hold unopened packs indefinitely.

I get this might delay things but from my perspective that is 100% worth it.

ez

[cedar raft]

Read all the passionate community comments and thought a long time about this. I think the best compromise would be to randomize the alphas in the mega and illuvitar d1sks for the 1st week with no extra cost. This would:

1. Reward early adopters and community while still making it accessible to everyone
2. Avoid bots and whales from buying all of the alpha d1sks
3. The team can then auction off the remaining 1/1s to generate buzz and excitement around illuvitars

[grizzled coral]

not gonna make me buy it with a random alpha lol... if thats your theory that nothing is going to sell, you are sealing the deal with this alpha crap period... imo you are tainting your set 1 out of the gate.... what makes it an alpha, a border, an icon? why would i want to buy it at a higher price? your trying to inflate value of something that has no inherent value... just cuz there's less of them dont make them desired

if anything, first week gets a 5% chance better rare or something to that effect would be better

[cedar raft]

You are not buying at an extra price. It’s the SAME price

[grizzled coral]

but the mental inheritence is that its worth more

[cedar raft]

That’s for the collectors to decide

[grizzled coral]

this collector aint even buying a pfp at this point

[cedar raft]

If you are going to buy the first week anyways why wouldn’t you want an extra chance to get something rare?

[cedar raft]

Not at this point but illuvium blows up years down the road wouldn’t you want a 1st edition like any collector?

[grizzled coral]

because its not an alpha

or it is, and I can careless in 2 years, cuz it means nothing

you can't fabricate my desires lol

[cedar raft]

Haha true

[grizzled coral]

its pututing castor oil in your mouth... diluting your heroine... i dont see the point of it, sell now or end of 3 months, what difference does it make if thats the concern

[marble silo]

While it wouldn’t have been much cleaner discussion wise, coming out from the start and saying with this proposal we are pricing these intentionally to draw in a wealthy customer base would have saved a lot of people extensive time wasted trying to point out that it prices most everyone out. We all thought the team just doesn’t know how to price things. Not that the price was literally set to draw in rich people.

[grizzled coral]

illuvatars will be perpetual sales, the starting of the economy, i dont see why it needs to pull in 25 million the first weekend

people start shopping, they like, they think, talk, trade, build, buy, illuvium is about transcations, the more the merrier

[cedar raft]

Because they are a start up company that don’t want to go to outside funding

[marble silo]

I’m going to forever reference Illuvium: beyond as Illuvium: beyond the common folks means, going forward

[inner current]

Doesn’t roll off the tongue as much

[marble silo]

I know, but I’m hard pressed to spend the time thinking names when i need work so i can afford an illuvitar :p

Poor people problems

[inner current]

Just not an alpha…

I can’t afford a T4 land

[marble silo]

Even the base price is still questionable at best

But they have a target audience in mind so let’s see what happens?

[inner current]

Yeah I agree with you 😂 just playing both sides

[grizzled coral]

make 1 alpha cards of each illuvial in wave 1, at 1 million a piece, then move on and go back to work..

thats a flex

[marble silo]

I like to be balanced myself but the scales are revolving too fast for me to remember which side I dumped all the coins on

[mental eagle]

This was my thought just dutch auction the alpha cards never release alpha d1sks.

[marble silo]

Even 150 cards at 100k reaches the safety pool target

[grizzled coral]

or, no holo's and people who want to flex can upgrade to holo for 10 eth... i dunno anything but whatever is currently in play

[marble silo]

Imagine being able to buy packs at just $15. I’d consider getting 10 and then you only need 1/2 of the discord to do the same

[grizzled coral]

or even a wild card, choose anything you want across the board on that illuvial

the only thing I can think of that is valid for Alpha d1sks, is that they are no different, except... alpha d1sks have at least 1 rare illuvial, not 1 item, in it for a bit more price

other that that, i think its pointless

otherwise you are diluting your set 1, and in this case you still are, but at least you are getting paid in advance for doing so

[grizzled coral]

imagine buying an expensive alpha, and get nothing but regular contents... i been in this situaton before in a game that ended up giving me a $5 class action lawsuit check

after stealing $1000 from me, because i went back to buy another, and another

and got caught in a lottery

[nocturne trellis]

Packs are ~$24, is that that much different than $15?

[grizzled coral]

there's other ways to bring in the big income then to have to rely on this to generate $10-15mil ... you could do a monthly publication sub... with leaks and a free d1sk....

$14.99/m for a basic, $29.99 gets a mega...beta access, leaks, etc. 5% off merch

[nocturne trellis]

When they were first priced I believe it was 18 USD, the mega D1SKs should definitely be more expensive than just 2x that

[grizzled coral]

its a thought, flex it 😄

how many people will sub though to get a monthly disk... its powerful marketing, and the beauty of the sub is, its not most SILV2 income, 0% silv2

[hasty pumice]

Echoing what others have said, the 5x cost is quite disappointing. If the profit is the focus, I'd rather see something 2x the amount printed sold at 2.5x the cost.

[ancient wadi]

We've just finished a productive meeting with the council and team, where we spent over two hours discussing your feedback and ideas. We are thrilled to announce that we are revising our proposal based on the valuable input we received from you.

**We appreciate your passion and involvement in shaping the future of our project, and you are welcome to keep the discussions going. However, please note that our proposal will be updated and released soon, so stay tuned for the latest developments. **

[quiet tide]

I read through most of the comments here.

Why do you want to mint Illuvitar? If your originial intention is to hold it as a PFP, something to say that you are a part of this ILV community, you can mint one at 0.015eth. If you want to finish the sticker album, you probably need a strategy on how many 0.015 and 0.075 to mint. If you want a specific illuvitar, you can get it off the secondary market.

There is a market for your objective, and I feel it is reasonably priced. Just don't buy the alpha disks.

It feels like for people opposing the alpha disks, it is mainly because they feel that they will be priced out of it and hence, the value they can extract out of this PFP collection lessens. Less 'rarity' because their collection is non alpha, and hence, less chances to flip for a higher price in the future. 5x is too big a risks for them to take, and hence they oppose it altogether.

Alpha disks is really just for flex, and I see the alpha disks as a way for the DAO to extract maximum value out of whales and bots (not for flippers to extract value out of this PFP), and it is good for the DAO. If people are not interested in it, there is minimum loss for the DAO.

I do agree on the point that both alpha and non-alpha disks should start minting at the same time. Why should we miss out on the fun because we are poorer.

[grizzled coral]

there's no point to holding a collection to perhaps sell later, that is pre known to be undesirable because its not marked "first edition". The choice will be not to buy

the whole point from the beginning, was having a pfp of atlas and in 3 years some new rich kid goes, wow, i need to flex that..here's $10,0000... Now that is only for rich people?

10% of that goes to the treasury... so you are now stabbing your economy of your best set of Illuvitars

[fiery thunder]

yeah it was said and marketed to us as a more accessible product with a lower price point than other PFP projects in crypto, but with no limit to the amount you can buy so that everyone can get one, low entry price, high volume

[grizzled coral]

and especially since there was 5 jillion combinations

[fiery thunder]

yup

[graceful citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/amen-anchorman-will-ferrell-gif-10865461

[grizzled coral]

i dont see fear of flop here... this illuvitars are going to start the real exposure to the world. let these things get on the market and bring the attention it needs to bring

[fiery thunder]

agree, and doing so the right way, with the ethos we started out with...

[torpid coral]

@hushed pumice

[broken zenith]

You know, it's weird (but necessary) to remember that this is pretty much a lot of our first times trying this DAO thing out. Gotta remember to give more grace around these types of areas. It's not perfect right now, but I'm happy that at least we have the ability to share our input in this IIP regardless of all the potential improvements 🙂

[hushed pumice]

Hmm

[maiden osprey]

I had some time to think over all of this. Here're some thoughts.

1. Illuvitars is an unlimited mint project. Alphas in the way they were first proposed contradict that very much.
2. Vetemor already pointed out that there needs to be an incentive for both buying early and opening the disks.
3. We were buying the top product "Wave 1 illuvitars", but once Alphas joined the picture we'll be buying a subpar product.
4. Price is questionable.

As a few have suggested (myself included) opening a regular disk at a regular price during the first week addresses the issues above.

1. It allows unlimited mint on the alpha illuvitars, so no one misses out.
2. You either open up during the launch event and get the stamp, which drives us the volume, or you hold long term.
3. Now every batch/tranche/wave we can open "stamped" illuvitars and have fun release parties, to reuse what the team worked hard to implement.
4. Price stays the same, you get a trade-off, that anyone can figure out for themselves.

Huge thanks to the council for being on top of this and being so involved in the discussion.

And maybe once we have a revision we should move to a new channel to clear up the votes on this one as well as the irrelevant discussion for the old version.

[surreal idol]

There will be a new channel for discussion when the revised proposal is ready.

[grave sleet]

Interested to hear a short comment from the illuvitar godfather himself who voted thumbs down. What’s your thoughts on having alphas?

[snow palm]

Would disks need to be opened the first week to receive the alpha stamp?

Or could you hold on to the disc for a later date to open, maybe years later, and still get the stamp?

[next wadi]

I think the question is would this even be needed if we already have Holos in it.

A Holo from wave 1 should be super valuable.

[primal cairn]

We need super sayan illuvitars, 10 eth each, let’s burn those silv2 😐

[hushed pumice]

In my own personal opinion, i dont think ALPA's are a necessary addition to an already massive project.
I wouldve thought, if this takes off, in the years to come - owning a WAVE 1 illuvitar would be like what having an ALPHA is now.. it would be more of a natural thing, instead of forcing it into the project.

The reason I suggested we make the album and not make it a super expensive PFP project like all the others, was to make the barrier to entry much much lower. The idea of making it possible to create billions of combinations and maybe ever seeing 20.000 of them, felt really bad.

Making them accessible for people with 50$ as well as people with 10.000$ felt more in line as to how we do other things too.. Every travel is the same amount of $ - but some might just find Tier 1 and 2's and others suddenly run into a T5.
The travel cost was the same.

However, if people smarter than me and know more about what's smart from a business perspective suggest we do add this special extra 'status' to the project, then i think you are still selling the same product, and a 5x in price is uncalled for.
It's not in line with what i think Illuvium is supposed to be, and definitely not in line as to how I thought Illuvitars would develop over time.

But again, these are my personal opinions, the good thing with the structure we have in Illuvium is how it is up for debate and we as CC's and Community can steer it in a direction we can all hopefully get behind. ❤️

[maiden osprey]

There is a need to force the people to open them, otherwise, they'll make all other disks less valuable. What period to open them is up to discussion.

[ancient wadi]

[REVISED] IIP-XX Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[tribal gulch]

Agreed & well said

[fiery thunder]

@ancient wadi make it on a seperate one with new 👍 👎 reacts

[wanton nacelle]

We still don't know what exactly Illuvitars are and how will it all work. But in your opinion, Illuvitars as a collection game with an album, are they priced right? (Ignoring Alpha disks, talking only about Illuvitars)

[flint linden]

Just wait 😛

[wanton nacelle]

Blickter said it will be a new channel when the proposal is ready.

[fiery thunder]

sweet

[wanton nacelle]

and that is now happening

[ancient wadi]

New IIP Draft up for community Review: #1073158340512858172

[grizzled coral]

I agree, if anything, i think there should just be a pre-order sale, it will be marked not "First Edition" but "Limited Pre-Sale" or something to that effect, which wont dilute the amazingness of a first edition set 1 wave 1 pfp, yet retain some more rare feature

better term might be FOUNDER

[torpid pawn]

@ancient wadi I honestly thought this was a solid idea that wouldn't add a ton of dev work. Didn't see in the new IIP - any word on if we are still going to be forced to open alpha packs?

[grizzled coral]

wont be forced to open in current proposal

[torpid pawn]

where was that said?

[slim saffron]

Check the new proposal.
"Alpha D1sks retain their ability to be unopened"

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1073158340512858172

[slim saffron]

In the second document "Council Rationale/Overview of Changes"

[grizzled coral]

open kierans pdf at the start of this discord

[torpid pawn]

ahh did see that second doc. Still think thats a good idea tho. Why not do both if we can.

[cursive pivot]

Oooh I like founder's edition. Reminds me of those GPUs

[grizzled coral]

is there going to be future "alphas" for the next waves?

[grizzled coral]

more fitting, how is the set 1 wave 1 not a first edition?

[cursive pivot]

Probably would say the alpha edition should be called founders. A limited printing. And still call Set1 Wave 1 First edition.

[grizzled coral]

while we at it, can change Alpha D1sk to Founders D1sk.... i think it would do a ton better

kinda wouuld go into lore a bit too, if they want to market and poke with that... the rangers landed, and settled in, and FOUNDED this fine specimens wandering the overworld.. blah blah

[grizzled coral]

My suggestion, to rehash what I have said above....
Recommend the etching on pfp of "First Edition" on Alpha D1sks be changed to "Founder Edition" and marketing wise, change Alpha D1sks, to Founders D1sks. This will remove the TAINT created on people feeling now regular set 1 wave 1 are diluted and feel worthless (not feel like they are first edition pfps, when they actually are) while still giving flex and value to the founders pfp's. Also should help marketing the sale, can even add some lore in on how Rangers found these upon colonizing the planet, and give long term value to alpha and regular pfp's, as well as the desire to purchase more on launch

[maiden osprey]

Revised proposal. #1073158340512858172
Alternative revision #1073312177143947285

[native quarry]

What’s the plan @somber patrol? The #1073158340512858172 is likely the place you are looking for.