Illuvitar Card Game

[bitter silo]

Aaron stated an Illuvitar card game might be next. Makes so much sense to me to have those best in class NFTs be useful inside a game.

Arron’s comments:

#814313779696238642 message

#💬〕general message

The idea :

Make it a simple card game like Marvel SNAP or GWENT. Or a party game like Unstable Unicorns. Have the "cards"/Illuvitars upgradable with the accessories.

Goals:

• Game is for casual mobile gamers and for ILV community to have fun together.
• we already have a competitive game in arena and a casual or group card game would hopefully be easier to dev and balance and attract another audience
• Make Illuvitar accessories more valuable on market.
• Increase Illuvitar sales and trading.

More details

(non of this would be in an IIP, just brainstorming):
Everyone gets F2P base deck.

These base cards can be replaced with Illuvitars.

Each illuvitar has base stats/abilities.

Accessories give you some stat boost or abilities added to the card/illuvitar.

• Examples
• Helmet gives you 1.25x HP
• Ring makes you invisible for a turn

Just wanted to collect some ideas here. Give the new gaming sub-council (whenever v2 gets approved) something to do 🙂

[agile timber]

Just wait ser

Aaron thinks of all

[mossy tangle]

Since the NFT art will be done anyhow we can play with the Illuvial NFT cards too and use their omegas and fast attacks. Building a Similar game to what the Pokémon card games are or other similar ones like Yo-Gi-Oh. Or even clash royale and what not. Endless possibilities. So many card games taking inspiration from and doing our own twist

[sturdy lotus]

2 hands up for a card game. Will it use illuvitars or will it use illuvials is a big question. But my intuition tells me. Recreate the yu-gi-oh anime. Make it so that when you play a card a 3d monster jump out of it on an arena. And we already have the models and the attacks.

Reuse everything where possible, this is exactly why the art team has been so methodical in creating exportable/interoperable assets.

I'm a huge gwent fan. Not doing the next hearthstone clone is something I'll be advocating especially when you have gods unchained already in the space.

[bitter silo]

My thought was illuvitars. Personally I wouldn’t want my pfp to wear accessories, I’ve also heard that from a few others. The spark of this idea was accessories make it so you can upgrade your “card”. I want the accessories to have more value(I’m sure the collections will do this to an extent)

[bitter silo]

Mostly just trying to pregreen light Aaron’s idea 😆

[sturdy lotus]

I want to add, that I very much like the idea of building your own cards by binding accessories 🙂

[mossy tangle]

As long as whamphyre is immortal in any card game

[bitter silo]

I wonder if a shared deck like untamed unicorns would work? You bring in your illuvitars and they get added to a shared draw pile.

[bitter silo]

Just want to say I have complete faith in Aaron to make an amazing party/casual card game, let's give him a blank check to make it. 🙂

[bitter silo]

quick mockup as you add accessories more abilities/stats added to illuvitar card

[winged anchor]

In my head I imagine this somewhat like hearthstone where u can choose one of your illuvials as your hero. Rhamphyre for example deals 2 damage to an enemy. Axodon gives 2 armour and so on

That way everything gets involved.

Also accessories on cards give them boosts but maybe individual accessories are your spell cards

[bitter silo]

Thats a cool idea, giving the un fused accessories on their own a purpose.

[haughty crypt]

@bitter silo I was actually unable to sleep last night because I started thinking about this. Way to beat me to it, and it looks like Aaron is already thinking some stuff also. But here are my thoughts:

Illuvitar Sale
We should have a general gameplay doc proposed as an IIP before the illuvitar sale to boost the utility of the cards. This could drive illuviatars sales. I would like a full understanding of how the base cards/accessories will work. Looking back at the Land sale,( it wasn't)and it still isn't confirmed that megacities will be a thing, but it did drive some to buy high premiums to secure land. We should improve from that and hopefully, have an even better illuvitar Sale.

MY gameplay ideas:
I would approach more of a Hearthstone/Legends of runeterra type TCG as @winged anchor stated. I think we could make it work with illuvitars really well. There is already quite a bit of competition, though, with Gods unchained, Aethergames, and Skyweaver, so we will need to add some unique mechanics that will make illuvium stand out.

However, The Base card could come as a regular creature-type card, but its stats could increase or decrease depending on accessories as well as additional abilities that could be beneficial or not:
Here is an example of how it could look:
Center is a plain illuvitar with no accessories. And two options.

**Health(red drop) **increases because of different hat combinations. In this case, the shiny hat gives him +1hp, and the military helm gives him plus 4. (there could also be a bonus given if it were a bulwark-type illuvial
Attack(bottom left) varies in two directions. Smoke is bad and reduces his attack, and the necklace improves his attack
Mana cost(blue crystal) increased with eyewear. The shades look cool, but they actually make it hard to summon him.
**Bonus ability: **You will notice that the bandaid gives a beneficial ability whereas the earing doesn’t

Having accessories that can be good and bad. gives more purpose to the accessories, trading, and increasing burning. Some accessories are great for profile pics, so players who just want an awesome pic will keep those, but the utility of others in the TCG may also make them desirable.

We still have to tie this with the main game, so you would have to burn x amount of the illuvial in the image to be able to “activate it” then. This gives us another reason to burn illuivals from the overworld. once it is active, you can play with it forever in the illuivtars card game. And can trade it as an “activated” illuivatar
Players would also have to pay some amount of fuel to “activate” the card and for play and earn matches.

There are more ideas in my head but let's see if anyone feels this is going somewhere first.

Love to hear from @lyric wasp and @lusty finch and any other TCG gamers in the space.

[sturdy lotus]

I'd probably go away from your regular "I attack your face" card games. I'm more inclined to snap or gwent about illuvitars. But for a full fledged illuvials using ccg my gut tells me yugioh duel monsters. The whole your cards come to life vibe.

Caveman I think you tagged the wrong person at the start.

[haughty crypt]

Thanks for pointing that out

[haughty crypt]

Ya that would be cool, but I feel that is a lot to animate with all the bonus accesories. I was a huge fan of Duelists of the Roses though! Still have it as a keep sake

[sturdy lotus]

That's why I'm thinking there are 2 games here:

1. illuvitars game.
2. illuvials game.

As we know illuvials are the key to the IBGs. And a card game with those makes sense.
But adding utility to illuvitars is not out of the question.

BTW I forgot to congratulate you on the work you put in.
I'm a huge card gamer and I'd love to be able to pitch in into any such discussions.

[lyric wasp]

I think a middle between Hearthstone and Yu-gi-oh would be best, extra deck aspect of yugioh has been what made the game feel new and different for over 25 years and it reduces the card draw rng heavily as you have many different ways to access your important extra deck cards with various different main deck ones.
While HS has a more sophisticated resource system compared to Mtgs version of using mana it is still simple and easy to learn which is important. Also modern yugioh turns are too much for a casual online game experience so limiting things a bit more seems reasonable.

Should prob allow people to unlock the cards by either having illuvitar or illuvial, so it doesn´t go against the narrative of Illuvials will allow you to play every game.

I was thinking of having many different cards for every Illuvial, similar to pokemon tcg, otherwise you don´t have enough cards.
Extra deck application for people that don´t know yugioh would be along the lines of "sacrifice/fuse/whatever lore word you choose" 1 Fire 1 Earth Illuvial or 1 Magma to summon a Phyrox from your extra Deck. or 3 Phyrox to summon a Scoriox version from you Extra Deck, that does something else than a scoriox from Main deck that is playable without the condition etc.

Going more into the yugioh version of Cards you could seperate the Extra deck cards into Illuvials that you summon with Fusing their lower versions (3phyri->1 Phyrox etc.) more easy summonable versions, like 1 Fire 1 Earth 1 Psion 1 Fighter (fire doka + earth flish would fill this) or more to summon a Magma/Arcanite Scoriox, or a 1 psion 1 Fire to summon an extra deck Phyri, some other applications like needs 2 Iluuvials, no other criteria would be possible, but maybe difficult lore wise.
Could cap the amount of extra deck summons/turn to not end up with actual yugioh playing through 10 of them/turn that makes turns 5-10mins

Example for why I like this extra deck version of Games, let´s say someone has Scoriox as fav Illuvial, you don´t draw it every game, maybe can´t build your deck around it due to card game nature (if we don´t talk about something that let´s you choose X Illuvials to start with on your board and your deck is only supportive cards) you can have a Scoriox that is summoned by fusing 3 Phyrox and you can have a Phyrox extra Deck that can be summoned by tributing any fire Illuvial, so you only need some combo that gets you 3 Fire->3 Phyrox->Scoriox, which likely is very consistent.

The other Option of starting out with X Illuvials and your Deck just being supportive cards allows for less depth and flexibility imo, as with extra decks you can use some slots for tech cards choice that don´t make your average draws worse and in any other version your tech cards are often good or useless no inbetween, HS had that problem a lot.
Easy to argue for it to make more sense to have Illuvials choosen as your on board starting units and your deck being the illuvvitar accessories, I think the Genshin TCG-Minigame did a good job with that setup, could prob copy 95% of that game and be good to go for a small extra utility card game.

[bitter silo]

I think Aaron is working on a blog post for his card game idea. You think that would be enough to increase sales or an actual IIP would be better?

I'm with Ned I think we can have 2 card games eventually. This first one could be casual and mobile first maybe able to play with a group. My thinking is we can focus on a different audience and it would be real fun to play with all of you in discord (kinda like how golf with friends is the go to now for fun in voice)

Thanks for all your input!

[haughty crypt]

Ya I mean a blog post will push more people to buy I'm sure. However, having a clear use case laid out, will push people even further. When I was buying land with my guild we bought a lot to set up a mega cities, but there were skeptics who were pessimistic because it wasn't clearly laid out and they didn't join in. I think we would be able to reel them in if there was more info around how the game would look as well as a guarantee this would be the next title in development. (There could also way be the chance a different game idea pops in place)

[bitter silo]

I think that makes sense. I know Deraji has stated he is against any Game IIPs before gov v2, but your rationale make sense to me.

@fossil nebula would you be against an IIP of this kind? Taking what Caveman stated above. I think even an IIP in the middle of the illuvitar sale would be great, since I imagine the sales will follow a u curve and be pretty low in the middle of the sale (if it last say 6 months)

[fossil nebula]

I'm fine with approving such a proposal, though I would clarify no new addition to scope of work until the current products are successfully launched and revenue bearing. With that caveat in prioritization and timing, I would be aligned to this. Holistically, I think its a great idea. In the words of Ron Swanson:

https://tenor.com/view/never-half-ass-two-things-whole-ass-one-thing-do-it-all-give-your-all-give-it-all-give-up-everything-gif-15654643

[haughty crypt]

I didn't have the example right, here is the correct image

[bitter silo]

I was thinking an IIP after launch might be best. get an idea of the popular accessories, nerf those and op the un popular ones.

[sturdy lotus]

So Kieran basically confirmed a TCG being designed for illuvitars. Can't wait to find more.

[dusty flame]

Thanks @bitter silo for bringing this idea forward. I've also been thinking about this for a while and could not agree more that a card game makes a lot of sense as the next game to envisage. While I definitely see the case for an Illuvitar card game (that potentially uses Illuvials like @haughty crypt suggested), I agree with @sturdy lotus that also having an Illuvials-based card game makes a lot of sense. Lots of pros:

1/ lowest-hanging fruit: in my view, a card game is the most efficient route the ecosystem can benefit from: best ratio of revenue potential to cost & time invested by the dev team. For example, a lot of the assets have been or will be created anyways (illuvitars + Illuvials including the idle animations that look fantastic and would give such a premium look on a card game)

2/ Broadening the audience and bringing-in new players: While I love the auto-battler, I think we could really use a genre that appeals to a very broad audience for being very simple to play. And I think a card game a la Hearthstone or MTG (or simpler) is it

3/ Additional use-case: linked to the previous point, a card-game sounds like an efficient way to quickly build up the IBG and add a very concrete use case to those Illuvials that players will catch in the OW.
New players attracted by the card game => boosting Illuvial demand (for use in card game) => boosting OW play to satisfy that demand (catching Illuvials) => higher demand on energy resources => increasing game revenues => income for the Treasury to develop new games and further grow the IBG => rinse and repeat
That's why the choice of a time-cost-revenue efficient next game is crucial!

4/ Further potential for collectability: the card games versions of the illuvials/illuvitars could further appeal to collectors for deck-building etc.

Again, I really like the idea of an Illuvitar-based card game. But equally, I think we should also not stray away from the initial idea that the Ecosystem is built around the Overworld and it is important to keep adding use cases to those Illuvials caught in the OW. So I hope we also use Illuvials one way or another (separate card game or alongside illuvitars)

[sturdy lotus]

Thanks for the input @dusty flame.

Here's what on the back of my mind:

Illuvitar game: Similar to Marvel Snap. Games take like 3 minutes to finish. Rules are explained in less than 5 minutes. Mobile first. Something to give to the vast amounts of Zero players, who don't have desktops. Maybe link some Zero incentives for this game and vice versa.

Illuvial game: Something more heavy. 3D models. Deeper ruleset. IBG link with other games - maybe using illuvials in the game gives them OW xp and you can after that level them up.

[dusty flame]

Can't agree more 🙂

[winged anchor]

I dislike the idea of specific accessories doing anything too specific. Because that could detract from the collecting Illuvitars game, which is its own product. But I admit there are infinite possibilities 😛

[sturdy lotus]

I heard Scoriox and Aaron discussing a card game with illuvitars. I'm hesitant in pinging Aaron, but I think we have some nice ideas here.

[lusty finch]

Bumping this. We need 1 more so that @bitter silo can send a proposal to <@&814435151307866142> and/or @agile timber

Illuvium already shared that they'll build out card game and we don't have a proposal out for it yet. Let's make it official to avoid any DAO issues

[scenic moon]

Im against this idea. I think if we are going to approve an IIP for any future games we should take a look at ALL the availible options and pick whats best for the DAO long term. Not just jump on and quickly approve something because we had one idea and its relevant to the thing we are selling right now.

[lusty finch]

We could just have all the "approved" but will not be developed IIP idea games then another IIP to decide which one to divert resources too.

[outer niche]

Can we finish the other 4 games before we confirm any more please XD

[fossil nebula]

I am with Dan - while there are a number of good ideas from the community, at this stage, the ambitious scope already outlined needs to be completed, or at least achieving meaningful and sustainable revenue. Once that happens, an assessment is needed to determine where to deploy resources for greatest DAO benefit. Further scope creep must be avoided. While an approved IIP that a TCG involving Illuvitars likely would increase Illuvitar sales, we need to be realistic in setting expectations for the community and core contributors. If I were to approve an IIP on a TCG at this point, it would need to include that development should not start until sufficient success is realized from Arena, Overworld, and IZ. Before then, the IIP would basically be "the council agrees this is a good idea and should be pursued at some point in the future."

[winged anchor]

I see Scrubs point that having an official IIP of something general may increase the overall sales of Illuvitars but honestly I dont want to run down the megacity path twice. We have no potential timelines for the card game and the rules need to be flexible. I'd like people to enjoy the collecting and albums first, then go down this rabbit hole.

[scenic moon]

I think it opens up a bit of a weird rabbit hole to pass an IIP for something that might get done in the future eventually. By that logic we should also write and pass IIPs for Illuvikart, an Iluvium moba, Hearts Ablaze, and Illuviputt since these are all ideas that are not 'approved' but would be considered in the future.

It might be helpful for the council to set up a system where people can submit game designs that can be catalogued and reviewed at a future date when we are making the decisions as a DAO of what new game(s) we should build.

[rotund belfry]

If we start approving games that are potentially years out, we lose a lot of our ability to be flexible. We also haven't looked into some crucial elements (as a DAO) that IMO should be mandatory when considering a new game. Things like total addressable player base, platform, competition, etc. All of those factors could shift or change between now and a year or two from now. Until it's very close to time to start development, I see very little benefit to be gained from pre-approving games. The only major one I see is the potential to increase Illuvitars sales in the short term, while creating an expectation that a card game gets completed. That will lead to endless "wen" until a card game is completed.

Let's just acknowledge that a card game is a possibility for now. The decision to develop will be best made in the future when we have more information to base a decision off.

[fresh idol]

I would currently vote No on this but probably not for the reasons anyone would think. Personally I love idea of a TCG (although I think it should be Illuvials and not Illuvitars). I believe that we need to address several strategic and operational questions first before we should decide:

Strategic

1. What is the purpose of the next game after the first four are launched? Is it adding new users similar to existing player base? Broadening our demographic appeal? Expanding into a different genre? Platform focused by apturing more mobile or console players?
2. Would an expansion of content to an existing game be a better use of time and resources than a new title?

Operational

1. What sort of development costs and timeline would be needed for each title?
2. How much funding and revenue does the DAO have for development costs?
3. What other competitors exist and what market share is reasonable to capture?
4. How would it integrate into the broader economy (ideally without adding too much complexity/tech debt)?

We should do a comparison across all options after we get them on the table and we have a clear set of objectives we want to achieve with the next title. So at the moment we could start an evaluation and begin getting options on the table. But we should not spend the team’s time on these discussions at the moment while we’re quickly trying to move toward launch of the existing four titles. I view this more as a community activity over the next 3-4 months to start dialogue, not a need for an IIP at the moment.

[bitter silo]

<@&814435151307866142> Thanks for adding your feedback. I think having council members voice their opinions would be a great precedent to set for any idea that demonstrates community support but isn't ready for IIP/ICCP forums.