IIP Proposal Remove SILV-2 from Overworld game loop FUEL can only be bought with ETH

[proven oriole]

Premise
Remove SILV-2 from Overworld game loop FUEL can only be bought with ETH nothing else. Also, nothing can be used as a replacement or substitution now or in the future

Reasoning:
Increased revenue for all aspects of the DAO

** summary**
IMO Silv-2 was bad idea at the start and one that will end up costing the ALL aspects of the DAO massive amounts of revenue until till it goes extinct sometime after July 2024. Removing it from the Overworld gameplay loop will save that revenue from being wasted and allow the treasury to compound the increased RevDIS grow more quickly to a point where we have much more than 10% and no longer need to worry about raises form other areas. This People have expressed concerns about "runny ways ", physical overhead , production costs and other such matters to will be able to rest easier. This will also increase the 5% fuel revenue pool for land holders who will also lose a lot of revenue form the existence of silv-2 in the game loop.

Silv-2 remaining uses:
Illuvitars, Future land sales , in game cosmetics / battle boards, can be adapted as physical merch and any other non-gameplay loop item in the future and well as the normal "black market unofficial liquidity pool not authorized or supported by the DAO already currently in use.

**Potential side effect: **
SIlv-2 may drop out of favor for being chosen as a reward hence the burn of ILV may decline not being a math person I don't have any statics to give you but it's my thought that the amount of decline vs. the amount of revenue not wasted would be worth the lesser about of burn as what I have read from the math people I do not see the maximum number of ILV in existence dropping below or even close to 9 million mark as such I no longer believe that deflationary ILV is as important as I once did

Conclusion:
I can see no downside to this as it seems to be the best move for the DAO and even serves Aarons long term stated vison of having an only ETH & Fuel based in game economy. It puts everyone on the same playing field and gives no one a "discount" or a backdoor into the gameplay loop.

It ensures the treasury will compound more quicky officially to a point where it can replenish enough to even eventually be able finance production and distribution costs of physical mech and events and other IPs thus allowing at some point 100% RevDis to actually be possible as will no longer be a burden on the treasury.

Looking at the land sale shows how much revenue can be lost to Silv-2 usage.

People keep saying that they are here for the long term. Not wasting potential revenue in the game play loop is unquestionably what is best for the day treasury , stakers and landholders for the lang term,

The community seems to be scrambling at ways to help the DAO make money for future use as they a a fear of using the treasury tokens for the raise that may or may not even be needed and seem to be willing to set a dangerous precedent giving up potential revenue to-do so

MO personal parting thoughts for each person who read this to consider

All the people willing giving up short term revenue form the illuvitars I will say this Giving up something you that you will never see is the easy part in my opinion and as other have says this does set a presendent.

The real question to see how dedicated this community is to the health of the game and to core features of the tokenomics and how far you are willing to go when the change actually has the result of you a having to actually personally take a part in adding to the value and financial heath of the DAO and financial heath of the game on a regular basis as you play.

I have always believe there should be an impenetrable pay wall between the ftp sections and Tiers.

Therefore, to all who here I ask you from one member to another are you willing to give up the "discount" Silv-2 gives in game and put yourself in the same position as many new main stream player who will not have that.

Are you willing to do your part and make the financial health of the DAO your personally responsibility and be as asset to the bottom line instead of burden.

I am. I have made no secret about the fact that I personally due to my holding will not be a contributing part of the DAO economy as far as the game play loop goes an My personal plan is to use silv-2 until I no longer can claim it as a reward an depending on the discount may also unofficially procure more for the same reason as others do.

I have the capacity and plan and free time with silv-2 to do as many possible runs as I can with my free time which may total when the token gets into the high hundreds again thousands or more of wasted revenue that could have gone to the DAO and depending the higher the token goes or the greater the discount the more value will get out of it

what if others have the same plan?
how fast will that amount add up if 100,1000, 10000 etc are doing the same thing as me

I state here officially I personally am willing to give that up and dig into my pocket to play for the good of the DAO and all involved .

the question remains to all those who have made it here Are you willing to put the DAO above the discount when in the gameplay loop and do the same ?

IIP Proposal Remove SILV-2 from Overworld game loop FUEL can only be bought with ETH

[civic star]

I dont like it. We keep eroding trust in the project, when trying to change the rules constantly. It’s getting worse and worse. Investment decisions cannot be made if people don’t know what rules they play within. And it’s impossible to know that, if the rules keep changing. The tokenomics should IMO considered holy, unless something is obviously wrong.

[orchid dove]

sILV2 technically doesn’t buy fuel. It is used instead of fuel. But it doesn’t change the idea I’d guess.

[icy axle]

No
No
No
No
No

[low marsh]

Thats a tough one! Is there anyway they can swap out the sILV2 for Eth at ILV price? I wouldnt feel so bad about that

[torpid geyser]

The Silv2 usecase is so short lived in the grand scheme of things and is a way(imo) to reward early stakers.
the LP on sushi will most likelely be fully drained after Illuvitars.
And reducing the supply for ILV in the long run is posetive for Ilv holders.

[dull oar]

Its in opposite from what DAO atm need. Instead of remove silv2 use case in illuvitar sale to give more runaway to the team now they need (if the idea pass) you prefer to force all people to use silv2 to buy illuvitar that wont bring anything in this short term needs and remove all the utility for the silv2 to bring discount even for the early mainstream players of the main game. Non sense imo.

[dusty burrow]

Very abrasive and challenging language. If u were more professional in your delivery I’d be willing to entertain. So it’s a hard NO for me.

[icy axle]

guys its solar

[proven oriole]

@tropic comet after the illuvitar snapshot can we please have a snapshot for this one to get an offical community sentiment of how the token holders feel about this iip thank you

[stark flume]

Solar, I appreciate the idea and recognize that you’re trying to address the main challenge to the project. I don’t think we could reasonably remove sILV2 from the primary purpose it was created for - being used in the game in lieu of ETH. Even just the idea of doing this for Illuvitars was a hard no from virtually everyone. To propose this for the core gameplay loop would be even less well received as we see from the comments and reactions here.

[proven oriole]

I disagree hence the proposal. We also have a history of disagreeing with each other so no surprise there 😆 I have asked Rich for an official snapshot poll if it fails there I will accept that as the official sentiment

[viscid latch]

what snapshot do you need? 14 no to 1 yes. i think its pretty clear that no one wants this

[proven oriole]

Rich is setting up an official way to get community sentiment it will basically work the same way we vote for council but for IIP topics. The difference is even if this got **1000 down votes ** but the Snapshot passed.

The snapshot would be considered the official sentiment of the community as only token holders have the power of governance

[weak otter]

There won't be a snapshot for every idea afaik

[proven oriole]

makes sense for things like Ii want to add purple hat in the merch store probably does not need a snap shot.

[torpid geyser]

If the overall sentiment captured in the Idea stage, goes majority either way a Snapshot is not needed IMO

[proven oriole]

disagree That goes against governance. Random polls on discord are not official.

[torpid geyser]

Disagree, Idea forum is meant to be a place to gauge sentiment before a potential IIP snapshot, this one is at current stage voted unquestionably down.

[weak otter]

At this moment you post an idea here on discord. If most people votes yes, It can go to a vote for the council. Maybe this changes in Gov V2 but I don't have any intel on that.

[proven oriole]

Disagree random non -ILV token holders should never have ANY say over governance.

[icy axle]

NO

[proven oriole]

I disagree with that assessment as it possibly gives non ilv holders a say in governance <@&814435151307866142> can we have your view on this and the IIP proposed here

[icy axle]

oh god

[weak otter]

I don't care if you disagree, this is how it works atm and how it worked since day 1.
As long as there is no collab land here, there is no way to check.
Once there is a verification in discord, I assume these channels will be for token holders only.

If you want to change the process, write an IIP 😉

I would advice you to wait for Gov V2 since it seems 5-10 people have been working on it for over 6 months

[icy axle]

whats the point of verification, people can buy $1 of ILV and verify
plus i dnt think random people really care about stuff like this

[weak otter]

There are 18 votes in a server with 200k accounts 🤷‍♀️

[icy axle]

who are those 199,982 people?

[proven oriole]

there does not need to be verification in discord is the purpose of SNAPSHOT you log in with your wallet and VOTE like we do with council no further verification is needed V2 . That is the ONLY official opinion.

[weak otter]

So only votes, we don't talk about stuff anymore?

[proven oriole]

As far as governance goes as i said if the discord discussed and voted YES to somthing and the snapshot voted NO the the discord sentiment is irrelevant.

[junior lodge]

there will not be a snapshot for every idea that is proposed

snapshots should only be done if Council Members decide that greater clarity on sentiment is needed to better inform their final decision

On this specific idea, as a Council Member I don't think I need more clarity on sentiment on this issue, the main reason being that I do not believe that any Council Member would vote in such a proposal as it is entirely irresponsible and hurts the foundations of the project

ideas generally do not require voting, they require discussion @proven oriole, this is how we peer review in this DAO

in my view removing sILV2 hurts the project more than benefitting it, the change requires a huge amount of work and I dont believe I see any upside for this change, the majority of the player base that illuvium will be attracting on game launch will not be investors and stakers but gamers in general, many of which would be coming in without crypto native background and using sILV2 in the game instead of FUEL requires a bunch of steps that a new player to a game really isn't willing to engage in for the most part

curious to see if any good arguments do arise supporting this proposal...

look forward to the other perspectives that come forward☺️

[junior lodge]

well said ser

[junior lodge]

"This will also increase the 5% fuel revenue pool for land holders who will also lose a lot of revenue form the existence of silv-2 in the game loop."

-that 5% is unaffected by sILV2's existence, as @orchid dove rightly points out you cannot buy fuel using sILV2, just that things you can buy using different fuels in-game you can just purchase with sILV2 instead...

[icy axle]

yep revdis tweaking gonna open a can of worms

[snow ferry]

This feels completely different than the other revenue generation discussions. This is a fundamental and lasting change to whitepaper token utility. As I assess any idea, my first thought is “what problem is this solving, and what is the impact?” In this case, the answer I reach is purely increasing revenue while essentially rendering sILV2 useless for its original primary function. While I acknowledge the impact of sILV2 does significantly limit the DAO’s revenue in the short term, there is currently a finite mechanism of creating sILV2. Provided we ensure sufficient revenue through various means to sustain the DAO’s existence, there is no reason at this time to not let sILV2 run its course.

[snow ferry]

Regarding the IIP process changes, we do want the community to bring ideas, and this Discord section has done an excellent job of organizing discussions and allowing a wide range of ideas to gain community review. The intent moving forward is to leverage this type of format, though in select instances, various polling mechanisms may be utilized to more quantitatively gauge sentiment. Again, I hope gov v2 is shared soon, but trust that the community and community elected council members are central to reviewing and building ideas. While doing a better job to define the process and solicit ideas, the new process is not drastically different than what you’re seeing here.

[covert lagoon]

Like the place that this proposal comes from. Don't like the proposal itself though. This is a massive change and would undermine trust, if we were to take action like this - it should be as an absolute last resort.

[sacred wing]

I was more under the impression we were heading towards ending silv2 claims from staking rewards rather than completely making them obsolete anyways if anything.

[glacial oriole]

Dont think I need to add more to this except that I respect where this is coming from but also respectfully disagree with the proposal as already raised by many of my peers.

[icy axle]

just solar

[stray otter]

You know I'm also not a big fan of sILV2 Solar, but I don't think we'd see net benefit from changing the fundamental purpose of sILV2 at this point in time. Yield emissions have already slowed down substantially, resulting in less sILV2 being claimed as compared to a few months ago, and it would be a massive betrayal of trust to entirely cut sILV2's functionality out of the main game. People have purchased sILV2 in good faith to engage with gameplay.

I do appreciate the idea from the perspective of improving ETH revenue, but in this case I think there would be far too much collateral damage done. I do still believe the best path forward regarding sILV2 is to have it spendable in all possible sales/games, to keep the total in circulation from getting too high, and to let sILV2 die out as yield farming ends.

[coarse ore]

My exact thoughts +1

[coarse ore]

Also agree that we shouldn’t wrangle a formal vote for every idea - process is already a drag on product without supercharging it

Solutions for floating best proposals to the top, Reddit-style have already been suggested and will probs be part of gov v2 I suspect

[gray parrot]

We should not be mocking anyone in the Illuvium community EVEN IF we disagree with them. Challenging perspectives should be respected and should be heard with an open mind. If someone cares about the game we should care about them. Let's all be kind and respectful please.

[proven oriole]

I have a lot of grivencence regarding this but i m not going to air them. its funny how this is so abhorrent yet shutting off revdis for the illuvitar sales and other things proposed that affgtect stakers or changes that were "just announced" changes that are happening... are is perfectly fine . Amongst other things I am actually fearful of what gov 2.0 has to offer and if it dilute the governance value of ILV.

[dusty burrow]

Wait… didn’t u just post a smear tactic against shabim?

[proven oriole]

Really ??? 😲 ** 5% will be unaffected by sliv-2 exsitance ???** 🤨 Vetemor im disappointed bacially your saying when $1 million "value"* of SILV-2 is used in place place of fuel related sales in the game loop ( since silv-2 replaces the need to even buy fuel completely) the land owners wont miss that $50,000 that will NOT be in their balancer pool. Of course they wont.

who would miss $50 000

[dusty burrow]

Was that your vid that mocked his 9.2 GPA and player tutorials?

[sacred wing]

It's one thing to not give something that doesn't exist yet. It's another to take away something people have already received or bought. silv2 exists, it's in peoples wallets, they bought it under the fact that they could use it on anything. They deserve to have it be usable as intended.

[proven oriole]

😆 By that logic then the stakers should get 100% revdis from the illuvitar sale and everything else amongst other things becase that is what they were promised at the very start of this project!

Basically with that logic to the end what you have stated means NOTHING about the tokenomic can ever change and should be Immutable

[limpid token]

well just like always... you manage to trigger me with your "thoughts"... unacceptable IIP and i don't even understand for someone like you who knows the sILV2 role in the eco-system how this even slipped your mind.

Fact is you for sure did spend a lot of time and thought on this... and here is the result... omg...

[gray parrot]

Shabim is a good friend of mine dude.. it was a joke

[sacred wing]

What do you always like to say? Agree to disagree? If you want to pay everyone for their silv2 at cost then I’m ok with your proposal to turn the token into junk. Otw, we can stop talking about it.

[proven oriole]

I am not going to comment on what I think of your opinion as it would be against forum rules so yea lets just agree to disagree....

[junior lodge]

The 5% is always intact for Fuel sales,

Maybe there may be slightly less fuel sales due to the existence of sILV2 but sILV2 and Fuel and its connection with land owners are technically 2 different mechanics, was just trying to correct the wording, i get the gist of what u were trying to expect regardless…

[junior lodge]

A temporary change agreed upon by the community and only in effect up to a certain milestone is one thing

Another thing is a fundamental change to the tokenomics made permanently, not to mention the entire community of peers unanimously against the idea

2 very different things,

You had an idea, it wasnt supported, thats okay, no one is attacking or dismissing you personally, this idea just is not supported by your peers, this is the DAOs filtering process in action, this is a good thing

[junior lodge]

So you would want to take sILV2’s utility away from people without reimbursing them for it?

Ser what about the law? What about human decency? What about the ethos of illuvium?

[proven oriole]

how is the 5% intact? if i do 50 runs capture 100 illuvials and do everything related to the game loop with SILV-2 ONLY both the stakers an Landowner make exactly 0% off of me . soo really THIS EXAMPLE how is th 5% intact?

[junior lodge]

5% of all Fuel sales go to Land owners

I use sILV2 instead of Fuel, i do not buy Fuel using sILV2, i just use it instead

Land owners still receive 5% from Fuel sales

[proven oriole]

Whatt does buying fuel have to do with my point . tthis has nothing to do with th 5% of Buying fuel.

[junior lodge]

Increased demand in sILV2 may decrease Fuel demand

But thats also full of speculation, the marketing teams job is going to be to onboard Players who would be using Fuel for the most part

[junior lodge]

The 5% that land owners receive always remains 5% regardless of sILV2 use…

[proven oriole]

if ilv is $1000 and i spend 10 SILV2 that is $10,000 of Fuel revenue that was lost! that is a FACT !

[junior lodge]

The revenue wasnt lost because it never existed

You’re being sad about losing something that legit never existed

People buy and hold sILV2 because they plan to use it in this way, just forget about it, dont concern yourself with it because thats money thats not interested in buying fuel anyways…

Instead push for marketing to bring awareness of illuvium to new play base that is far less likely to use sILV2

[proven oriole]

Your exaggerating --- an obviously missed this
Silv-2 remaining uses:
Illuvitars, Future land sales , in game cosmetics / battle boards, can be adapted as physical merch and any other non-gameplay loop item in the future and well as the normal "black market unofficial liquidity pool not authorized or supported by the DAO already currently in use.

[proven oriole]

I agree with that if it is the "peers" of other ILV stakers not Discord members . I m surprised you cannot seethe difference

[junior lodge]

land sales are rare, not constant,

So its mostly for illuvitars… this makes no sense

Have you considered how many people this negatively affects and how much trust this destroys?

[proven oriole]

Why not just hold a poll on gleam to elect council? anyone can join I mean if everyone on discord is a peer........

[junior lodge]

I’m surprised that you think that tons of ILV stakers or holders might agree with you when so far not 1 person on discord has agreed

Whats going on bro? Its 39 to 1

This idea is receiving no support

Feel free to either edit it in a way that it may receive some further support, maybe ask people if they have any ideas to evolve this idea further in some way? But as it stands you arent backing down and keep doubling down on an idea that nobody else agrees with…

[proven oriole]

the point is i would i would accpt it failing like that because i deem it fair.

[icy axle]

this is what i love about vete

vote vete for council guys

[glacial oriole]

Wow. this became unnecessarily convoluted.

Even a team member chimed in already and doesnt agree with you. The poll or snapshot is used when opinions are clearly divided from what weve been reading here is that its not the case.

The poll was used once in all the ideas posted here. So its actually the exception rather than the rule so, you have no standing on your position to demand a gleam survey.

[junior lodge]

Why are you looking for fair, its just an idea bro, let it go or let it evolve

We cant treat every idea fairly cos generally 99% of ideas need changing, improving or abandoning

Once an idea has been refined a bunch and has received a ton of support maybe then we start treating it a bit more fair

[proven oriole]

So your basically saying the average discord vote basically has power of governance ?

[junior lodge]

No, dont take it literally

I’m saying that those that care enough to voice their opinion have rejected this idea, team members, moderators, active community members, council members, council nominees…

I’d say thats plenty

[proven oriole]

well you are the a counsel member ... so say we all i guess

[junior lodge]

Personally having this conversation w u rn because i care about u ser,

Not tryna put u down in any way, just trying to get you to move on from an idea that hasnt panned out, it happens fam, its all good tho🤗

[icy axle]

i think only vete can talk solar out of it

[proven oriole]

@junior lodge your right i should be thanking everyone now i can continue with my original plan I stated in my above and simply not add to the revids or 5% for the next few year . maybe even buy some off the black market so i have my own runway after yield ends I just saved a bunch of money i would have gladly given to the DAO.

[glacial oriole]

Seems like only Kieran or the admins can do that. He only answers to the higher authority.

[junior lodge]

We are investors and in a project with no whitelisting this is the only small “advantage” in-game that we have

Do not feel ‘bad’ if you receive savings for being so early in a project and having such good awareness of it, that is your reward ser

Trust in the marketing team to bring in not more investors but to bring in more players, we need player base and all will be well and good and flying to the moon

[junior lodge]

Guys dont speak about someone like they arent here, treat other members of the community with respect, especially when someones trying to have a heart to heart with them

We’re all in this together, dont forget that 😉

[glacial oriole]

Nothing disrespectful with what I wrote on the quote. Just an observation. Please go on with the heart to heart.

[proven oriole]

your right i am going to focus on extracting value form now on

and i am used to personal attacks ..........

[junior lodge]

We both know thats not what I’m saying

But we dont require our community members to sacrifice value and utility that we have promised them, and certainly not perminently

[junior lodge]

You shouldnt have to be, were not here to be attacked but to be part of a community

Ideas however are not your person and in the spirit of open debate and discussion any and all ideas are open to being disagreed with and dismantled with alternate ideas always

[proven oriole]

ok I hope that is true for all things... i have my doubts . I trust the team but you know my feeling about parts of this community from conversation we have had before.... this has just reinforced them . Thanks for your time . I'm going to log have a good night

[spare shore]

I think removing sILV2 is a bad idea. Not only does it take away from long term holders but also a part of the burn mechanics. It would mess up the economic system at a time that we actually need to trust in it.

[junior lodge]

Well said ser

[spare shore]

🍻

[icy axle]

solar blocked me, so i cant talk to him

[junior lodge]

fair lol

[tropic comet]

You or jag?

Did you just blow it

[junior lodge]

🙊

[icy axle]

@proven oriole if you unblock me ill get you some votes