screw mediarama, support kanji is where it's at
#Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks
true gorge
supple oak
true gorge
What did I say?
I mean ik he is a dps, but when stacking tarunda and rakukaja is the only way to endure damage, i'll take it over just getting 1 shot.
Sukunda on kanji is also kind of really good
dusky thicket
whar
true gorge
With how it is right now, i think it is.
I would remove myriad arrows from naoto
because it outclasses chie.
dusky thicket
kanji shouldn't have sukunda
dusky thicket
oh
true gorge
The issue in vanilla is that he ran out of SP too soon because masukunda was 24 SP
dusky thicket
because it outclasses chie.
on pure numbers alone I agree, I noticed this discrepancy early on
worldly jasper
lmao does it rly just target weaknesses in order
dusky thicket
I wouldn't say remove it just nerf it
worldly jasper
p4 bosses are awesome
true gorge
If you don't have yukiko
he switches from kanji to MC
I use izanagi so he just targets wind weakness
worldly jasper
yukiko getting one tapped through tarunda + rakukaja
truly the glass cannon without the cannon 🔥
worldly jasper
equipment barely matters
true gorge
and went all in with the sukunda
worldly jasper
defense stat does next to nothing
worldly jasper
yes lol
true gorge
I mean 10 damage is the difference between dying and not
It's pretty close.
I remember in P3R
going from 200 defense to 300
worldly jasper
the gap between like start of game armour and end game armour isn't even that noticable
true gorge
made a HUGE deal in elizabeth's fight
worldly jasper
elizabeth does like no damage in that game 😭
worldly jasper
71 damage thunder reign
true gorge
Give myriad arrows to chie
Instead of arrow rain
It also helps with the tokyo tower fight
since it has high counter
so you can use multi-hit to minimize risk
worldly jasper
gayon rain
true gorge
She deals 300 damage to me if I have no buffs
I have to stack firm stance+resistance+tarunda or rakukaja to stand a chance
Oh brawler
Also
dusky thicket
You could do it like I did
any changes made really require skill rebalancing so I don't think anything you've got would be relevant to fix the problem(s) rn
true gorge
megido skills are wayyy to busted
supple oak
lmao does it rly just target weaknesses in order
no
it's intentionally targeting yukiko because woman
true gorge
Naoto wipes the floor with everything
worldly jasper
chie is a biological male?
supple oak
chie is a biological male?
it doesnt have agi
true gorge
Megidola was fine in vanilla honestly, it was just megidolaon that did way worse damage
for what it used to cost
worldly jasper
megido skills in vanilla are horrible lol
dusky thicket
they were buffed in this mod
worldly jasper
they're like unjustifiably bad
true gorge
I've ran into a couple of issues due to megidola doing more damage.
or the megidolaon from the tokyo tower i mentioned before, i guess those could be ironed out
worldly jasper
well yeah every single boss in p4 uses some almighty bullshit that's all they know
true gorge
but I think they are too good for what they cost
worldly jasper
it's more case by case than the skill itself
supple oak
I've ran into a couple of issues due to megidola doing more damage.
considering Last Resort is constantly doing 800 damage to me, i think you can live with megidola doing more damage
true gorge
Nah man
worldly jasper
i imagine marge simpson will require a lot more prep than in base game
worldly jasper
because of morning star and meghid
dusky thicket
oh true
supple oak
marge with fayande mod is so funny
dusky thicket
the hassou tobi will be a break lol
supple oak
rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel, rakunda, repel
worldly jasper
the hassou tobi will be a break lol
nah hassou tobi outdamages by a lot
its just that meghid isn't resistable
dusky thicket
you can just null phys
true gorge
I think he means because multi hit
worldly jasper
ig naoto stocks go up?
dusky thicket
yea
true gorge
is broken here
supple oak
naoto stonks 🔥
true gorge
Oh nvm
worldly jasper
he?
supple oak
shield of peakge
true gorge
what's hassou tobi's damage?
worldly jasper
WRONG GIF
true gorge
base dmg that is
dusky thicket
worldly jasper
I MISSCLICKED
supple oak
worldly jasper
DUDE ITS 6 AM
dusky thicket
sending that with a mod and admin in the chat is crazy
supple oak
i will forgive it ONCE
dusky thicket
i will forgive it ONCE
I won't
true gorge
No harm done
dusky thicket
worldly jasper
rip 😭
supple oak
!warn 793932950793355315 Rule 4
round gazelleBOT
jokesexplainedyt has been warned.
true gorge
Oh almighty mod please forgive this poor soul
dusky thicket
😭😭
dusky thicket
I wasn't actually being serious either lmao
true gorge
yeah man like it's just us 3 here anyway
worldly jasper
nah its chill its chill
dusky thicket
well I'll let you all figure out this almighty stuff anyways I need to go to bed 💀
worldly jasper
goodnight hahahaha
true gorge
I'll say to keep it like in vanilla
supple oak
before i figure out almighty ANYTHING i need to figure out shadow rise
true gorge
except for megidolaon
dusky thicket
really I think a lot of these problems will be addressed once meovv gets further in the game lol bc then we'll have two playthroughs worth of feedback to work thru
true gorge
You heard it here first
supple oak
I'm way more tolerant to getting curbstomped and oneshot in P4G VH, but you might be right
true gorge
supple oak
again, i post entire dungeon runs
but what you don't see
is the 3 to 4 hours of gameplay i lose from every gameover
true gorge
This is the most honest I've managed
to buff almighty without becoming bullshit from experience
worldly jasper
i don't rly think almighty needs nerfed as long as it's tuned to everything else
although it's like
true gorge
Remember that after you get naoto
you can just spam megidola
and no need to use anything else
worldly jasper
well like
true gorge
because 1) she will never run out of SP
dusky thicket
revert to P4 costs
supple oak
shio i might need you to be my reload guinea pig in like 6 months when i eventually motivate myself to actually finish my thing
true gorge
- Magic and phys just cannot compete
supple oak
that's ok, it's drunk-friendly
dusky thicket
speaking of reload I'm gonna probably start playing thru EP Aigis reload in the next few days so woooo yeah
true gorge
Meovv, I have to say this
worldly jasper
i had a guy hitting on me and a girl dance with me last time i got drunk i'm a pro
dusky thicket
my friends wanted to watch me play episode aigis reload lol so here we are with me basically ignoring what you suggested on twitter
worldly jasper
teddie in english makes me want to kill myself
supple oak
because he IS
true gorge
wrong
dusky thicket
sorry shio lol
worldly jasper
kanji's like 15 bruh
dusky thicket
yaur he's a first year
worldly jasper
my friends wanted to watch me play episode aigis reload lol so here we are with ...
you owe me 5 dollary doos
dusky thicket
huh
supple oak
speaking of reload I'm gonna probably start playing thru EP Aigis reload in the ...
i really liked ep aigis...... i didn't like oneshotting the sees duels but that's another conversation entirely
true gorge
I know, but it's so weird going from troy baker's voice to a really young dude.
worldly jasper
you can just spam megidola
tbf tho it's not as if megidola is better than mahamaon and mamudoon for random encounters
supple oak
but whatevs
worldly jasper
i think it's more so just like
dusky thicket
oneshotting the sees duels crazy
true gorge
Hama is just broken in general
dusky thicket
that's lame af
true gorge
but i think it ruins the balance of her kit
worldly jasper
for other things in the mod, meghid might be overtuned
like naoto has like
meghidora
true gorge
not hama
worldly jasper
while yukiko has like fire boost maharagion
true gorge
i meant having almighty so overtuned
dusky thicket
I think Naoto is a bit overtuned too based on the numbers
supple oak
that's lame af
i think it would've been fine if they had some crazy HP amount but they literally only have 5000 hp each (which shadow hound and charging blitz can do, so...)
true gorge
I thought naoto was really good
Even after nerfing megidola
At the point you get her, I still had second tier spells+boost
worldly jasper
there's zero reason why dhains should shit stomp meghidoraonn with just boost
true gorge
but in here, there is no contest, she just NUKES everything
supple oak
i think it would've been fine if they had some crazy HP amount but they literall...
you know what the sees duels needed?
the shatter skills from SH2
there's literally no way for mitsuru and yukari to down you
should've had weakness-opening skills
worldly jasper
although like
worldly jasper
but in here, there is no contest, she just NUKES everything
tbf its not rly that naoto's op tho
it's just kinda that everyone else is behind
true gorge
Yukiko was really good with her damage,
worldly jasper
even with buffed meghid
true gorge
so was kanji and chie
worldly jasper
she's just the best at aoe
true gorge
And naoto has rakunda now
dusky thicket
the problem numbers wise is that there is a big gap with phys skills and then a lot of the highest tier skills are like the same damage lol
dusky thicket
makes it really hard to work with those lvl 55-65 skills
I commented on this prior
I know skill rank makes it hard but still
true gorge
I managed to balance it out in my mod. It tooke me a few days
worldly jasper
like ik i'm le p3 shill but i think that game has a clear curve to phys skills where they're basically always improving and there's something for every point in progression
true gorge
Ik my scale is different from yours
worldly jasper
tbf tho
true gorge
but you could take a look if you want
worldly jasper
skill rank is a hidden mechanic idk if it's fair to really base everything on that
dusky thicket
meovv is the one who gets to figure out the numbers anyways, I haven't touched that stuff
worldly jasper
and you could also just adjust the ranks themselves
true gorge
Oh that's fair then.
dusky thicket
I think it was brought up that we couldn't
supple oak
skill rank is a hidden mechanic idk if it's fair to really base everything on th...
I understand, but so far it has been really good
plus, arent ranks proportional to the sword cards too
true gorge
I think the ranking of skills is fine
dusky thicket
yeah I get the feeling you're going to run into issues with the skill ranks around like late game
true gorge
What I did for my balancing was removing gigantic fist from teddie
dusky thicket
if there were any way to change skill ranks I would say take those but it sounded like you didn't know of a way to do so
true gorge
and giving it to yosuke
supple oak
rampage is mega nerfed and it still feels like one of chie's best skills
true gorge
that way you don't run into overlaps
true gorge
I knowwww
But when enemies use it it does 1 damage
unless you are severely underleveled
I think we should really ask arkadia, swine, or someone who knows how to meddle with the EXE to fix this.
Because It's become kind of common later in the game.
supple oak
arkadia has me blocked and i have no intentions of asking for his help
true gorge
But arkadia is cool T-T in my experience. Oh well, I won't pry
worldly jasper
plus, arent ranks proportional to the sword cards too
not really
true gorge
but idk I think we should get it fixed somehow
worldly jasper
sword cards are kinda random af
a lot of ailment phys is really late
in sword card
like post-heaven
dusky thicket
Because It's become kind of common later in the game.
what, the 1 damage thing?
true gorge
yeah
supple oak
examples
supple oak
naoto dealing 1dmg?
worldly jasper
mix of level gap and endurance
dusky thicket
I could ask ark if they've ever run into anything like that before
true gorge
Agneyastra is fine
worldly jasper
this can happen in base game too
it's just more common here because a lot of multihit is nerfed
supple oak
then i won't bother too much
worldly jasper
it happens quite a lot in base game if you do the funny izanagi shit
dusky thicket
actually idk that ark ever would've run into this anyways
worldly jasper
where your endurance is way higher than it should be
dusky thicket
ah maybe not worth touching then
worldly jasper
it's worth checking out specific enemies
true gorge
I think this extra level of polish is worth it.
worldly jasper
and maybe adjusting skills a lil bit
supple oak
actually idk that ark ever would've run into this anyways
if you take more than 1 dmg from a multihit you will be NUKED
worldly jasper
i don't think 1dmg should ever really happen without like
true gorge
And it can fix a long-standing bug/oversight.
worldly jasper
uber prep
dusky thicket
lol that sounds like something that would happen in nightmare 32
true gorge
It just happens by playing normally.
supple oak
is nightmare 64 actually improved
true gorge
She joins Lv 55
worldly jasper
they're def undertuned
true gorge
and she only takes 1dmg
dusky thicket
is nightmare 64 actually improved
it's different
true gorge
The balancing is FINE
dusky thicket
improved idk
true gorge
it's really good in fact
supple oak
AMAZING ANSWER BRO
true gorge
it's just the enemies that have this issue
supple oak
i'll take it
dusky thicket
I don't really care to use nightmare bc it's not what I'm looking for lol
fundamentally seeing 1 damage being more common is really weird either way
shouldn't rly be frequent
dusky thicket
doesn't sound like there's a good way to solve anyways
true gorge
I'd say it definitely stands out
supple oak
that's valid, but with kill rush being nearly as strong as dynes, taking 1 damage occasionally is much better than having the skill be omega strong
true gorge
Yo brawler bro
worldly jasper
besides some like rampage maybe
true gorge
go to bed, don't mess up your sleep schedule
worldly jasper
this happens too in kiwami
supple oak
true gorge
Also gn y'all
supple oak
yeah justice does 1 dmg
dusky thicket
I've not seen 1 damage very much in persona games tbh so there's that but I'm definitely a bit more on the casual side when it comes to playing them lol, so I think I would've never been in positions to see it normally. also yea good night
supple oak
supple oak
so some good news
shadow teddie's knockdown is entirely scripted
meaning that it's also entirely irrelevant to the flag
mitsuo might also be crit-friendly
might not, depending on how exactly the baby form works
but teddie is safe to crit
dusky thicket
oh you already got to Teddie?
supple oak
ye
supple oak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWa1NudQAYo
supple oak
supple oak
small change/correction needed
Iai Katana is +3 Ag, and Cleaning Mop was an identical item obtained through the artisan
I changed it to +5 Ag, but the quest that requires the Mop gives you a +4 Ag weapon as a reward, which is a downgrade
Katana should be +3. Mop +4, and the reward Broom +5
true gorge
Looks pretty good! Everything is coming along nicely.
dusky thicket
really should have some of the other suggested changes documented somewhere
also rise only using light magic is still very funny to me
or rather mainly
imagine if she just dropped a dyne on you haha
harsh canyon
also rise only using light magic is still very funny to me
for a sec i misread that and i was like "damn shes using instakills now?"
harsh canyon
hamadyne
dusky thicket
I never had gotten a crit on her before haha
harsh canyon
"The real me isn't like this!"
dusky thicket
shadow rise's voice in Japanese kinda hurts my ears ahaha
such a high pitched voice
tarunda on Yukiko kind of a W
that was a nice change to give her something else to actually do lol
I'm glad that one at least is actively working out
true gorge
I second this. I never took off tarunda off of her for the whole game.
Also yeah, going from the EN voices to the japanese ones is super jarring haha.
Especially Teddie. Damn...
By the way, I had a weird idea that could potentially benefit Yosuke.
You know how virus wave is a physical skill, and also kind of a high-tier skill for some reason?
The skill kept reminding me of Virus Breath from persona 3.
Now this is an almighty skill, but every time I use it in P4 I keep thinking it is almighty.
Anyways, I was thinking that we could replace megido from yosuke's bike skill with an almighty version of virus wave (really just change the affinity of virus wave) so that he can get both, the almighty damage, and a poison proc that pierces resistances.
Megido does not really hold up that well later in the game, so this way it makes the bike skill not feel immediately obsolete.
worldly jasper
virus breath isn't an almighty skill
it's a poison skill that does damage
p3r makes it almighty for some reason
adding an entirely custom skill sounds funny
dusky thicket
Also yeah, going from the EN voices to the japanese ones is super jarring haha.
most of them are fine tbh I even got mostly used to Rise's voice but her shadow has such a high pitched voice in some scenes that I wonder how the VA did that lol
dusky thicket
adding an entirely custom skill sounds funny
that's why I would probably say no to it - a custom skill that only Yosuke gets doesn't rly seem in the spirit of this rebalance (which is to keep things largely faithful)
now as stated before I do think P4 lacks a lot of skills that would be very nice for more skill variety, but this mod is largely staying in the constraints of P4's existing skills
harsh canyon
isnt rise's name partially based off the va
dusky thicket
I can't believe a real VA is named after rise kujikawa, that's so crazy
(I didn't know that but if that's true that's cool)
harsh canyon
Rie Kugimiya apparently
sleek cloud
urusai urusai urusai~!
supple oak
also rise only using light magic is still very funny to me
she drops tier2s on you
aoe
the light magic is because she's an anuboss
weakness heatseek
damage was manageable because of the double stacked defense buff, would've been problematic otherwise
dusky thicket
probably more of an issue on very hard huh
on normal/hard the damage was a complete non issue
supple oak
on normal/hard the damage was a complete non issue
very likely
level scaling is harsher in golden than i remember so that could be it
i have footage of agi instakilling chie
true gorge
Golden is very weird. If you are at around the same level as the bosses, they barely make a dent. But, if you are under-leveled, they destroy you unless you stack buffs.
I guess this is also something that happens in P5, but that's because it's very easy to overlevel in that game.
supple oak
its this way in almost all games
its just that it gets sharper with every level, and p4g is sharper
metaphor starts sharp and tapers off, which feels pretty good
doing high level content first is extra challenging as a result
it's way harder and you could grind first, but it's calendar efficient sometimes
the consequence is that the main story dungeons are then extra easy
but it is what it is
boreal leaf
feeling bored. might try this mod
dusky thicket
this mod is currently in a state where it's "done" for an initial release but both meovv and PC are going through and doing playthroughs on very hard to play test. this is to say, feedback is cool
I think especially for normal/hard bc those don't have the XP curve of very hard
supple oak
feeling bored. might try this mod
beware unforeseen issues due to still being in testing
but have fun
true gorge
the consequence is that the main story dungeons are then extra easy
The closest thing I can think of related to this is doing elizabeth and then fighting Nyx. If you want to beat the former, you pretty much have to be high enough level to obtain Armageddon, which kind of ruins the final boss due to the level gap.
I swear, for being the one game where NG+ is not needed, they make it pretty inconvenient.
I wish it was more natural. Weird mechanics aside, P5 and P4 flow pretty well in terms of fighting the attendant before the final fight.
true gorge
this mod is currently in a state where it's "done" for an initial release but bo...
The megidola/megidolaon issue is pretty much a very-hard specific thing.
Other than that, I don't think I've gotten stuck. I did not really test the bike rides because I went for 100%, but this was dumb because I ended up with like a month of free time.
I remember the game being way more strict with time-management. Like 100% P3R left me with just 5 days to spare, but it had linked episodes and all that.
Magic felt pretty strong, naoto was pretty useful in fights, and yosuke was great.
Which is to say, not bad for a first draft. I think yosuke's moveset is still a bit bloated with moves compared to everyone else, but this is a nonissue.
I do have a couple of other little things in mind, like Naoto outdamaging chie with megidola/myriad arrows, and some bike skills not feeling really worth it for the character by the time you get them, but the latter is mostly due to pereference.
dusky thicket
I swear, for being the one game where NG+ is not needed, they make it pretty inc...
NG+ was needed until P3P
dusky thicket
Other than that, I don't think I've gotten stuck. I did not really test the bike...
yeah P4G has the most free time of any persona game iirc. I thought it was P5R, but no, apparently P4G gives you more time
dusky thicket
I do have a couple of other little things in mind, like Naoto outdamaging chie w...
I agree that damage needs a second pass based on numbers, I don't think anyone should be able to do more AOE phys damage than Chie overall
supple oak
mitsuo's dungeon really just nosedives game difficulty thats funny
killing hand is such a pushover i doubled its hp
I still enabled crit, and gave it a hidden rage vulnerability since the regular enemy also has that
would've been 1.5x hp otherwise but this seems fair
gonna pop a fast heal on it too
dusky thicket
mitsuo's dungeon really just nosedives game difficulty thats funny
most people consider lego baby a difficulty spike lol so that is a bit funny
true gorge
I remember the dungeon itself not being easy per se, but exploitable rather. Most enemies are easy to knock down and have an ice weakness, and this is right after you get Teddie. If you fail to take them out turn 1, however, they will most likely 1 shot you due to the MASSIVE level gap. The next dungeon is where this really becomes an issue because enemies start having either no weaknesses with High Counter, or have a dodge passive. I remember struggling on the early floors. The miniboss for the next dungeon is also a wall due to how hard he hits.
The Mitsuo fight is not horrible, but it is the first fight where you need to get a bit lucky to beat it (Fear+Ghastly whail RNG, the MC not getting hit by the hero's attacks twice in a row, and not getting hit with the exhaust bomb too much so that you can focus on offense). You can survive Gigadyne if he is fully debuffed, but you need to pre-emptively apply marakukaja just before he switches forms, or he will 1 shot you unless you dodge it. Sukunda/masukukaja helps a LOT in this fight, and the all the next boss fights for that matter.
I remember I managed to take him out in 2 cycles, just before he finished building for the 3rd time, so damage is not really an issue.
Good luck taking him out!
supple oak
I remember the dungeon itself not being easy per se, but exploitable rather. Mos...
this is just wrong?
the ice weakness part is true but they do like 10 damage max even with level gap
true gorge
multi hit?
supple oak
some attacks even do 1 damage to mc due to Endurance gap and that's on moves we buffed
no
magic
true gorge
Something might be wrong. Which enemy in particular?
supple oak
much lower
true gorge
But I also did not let them attack, so you might be onto something.
I do remember the times they DID attack, they were hitting me for 400+ dmg
supple oak
if it's a weakness sure, otherwise it's very fine
esp since both teddie and mc have auto raku
true gorge
What about the cupid dudes?
true gorge
they use poison arrow too no?
supple oak
true gorge
I remember that, for sure, that 1 shots you.
This might be a nice guy situation. But I have no idea either.
true gorge
This was the only dungeon where I did not die at all.
Next one though, it was pretty annoying.
supple oak
i only really died to greed or affinity guessing
I'm not using wiki + I'm on act freely
to simulate bad players
true gorge
OH you are on act freely damn
I also went affinity checking, but i did not handicap myself like that lol
supple oak
they do pretty well tbh
supple oak
they guess and when they find it they will instalock it or start phys
(my tactics are modded)
true gorge
try to get some access to it before mitsuo if you want to save yourself some trouble
supple oak
whatever happens happens
true gorge
It truly is what it is
true gorge
some attacks even do 1 damage to mc due to Endurance gap and that's on moves we ...
Oh, did you beef up your izanagi?
Or is this what happens with all of your party members, besides teddie?
supple oak
oh my izanagi is omegabuffed
I would already have Blade of Fury but I died so it's Power Slash again
true gorge
Nahhh that is my megidolaon
hits for CRAZY damage
Marakukaja is a must have pretty much, same thing with rakunda unless I have naoto in the team.
Rise can already buff attack from time to time, so matarukaja is a luxury
supple oak
for endgame there's no reason to have the buffs on izanagi lol
true gorge
But if I'm honest, I just keep both single and multi target magic.
So that I can inflict dizzy and get extra dmg
true gorge
I don't know why but I just used Izanagi solely
I mean, I did switch to my other personas for healing/ hama and all that
If I'm honest I just don't know what else to throw there. Maybe endure or something, but I like to keep him like an upgraded starter persona.
He does get a lot of buffs debuffs, so I thought I would just make him focus on that. All I do is spam marakukaja/marakunda and attack whenever rise charges me up
supple oak
i have other personas for auto-buff/ailment/nulling
eventually izanagi will be outdamaged lol
true gorge
Yeah, maybe, but he gets the job done, and he looks sick as heck.
I just have brave blade instead of primal force because he does his little swing animation. That's all haha.
But yeah, he is the dedicated thunder persona. Thor has pretty low magic and it is kind of a pain to get him with boost+amp
I kept the buffs on him mainly because I was going for a kind of canon moveset build. If I had gotten debilitate on Naoto, I would have replaced marakunda with Vorpal Blade or something along those lines, but the buffs are just too good to pass up. And a lot of enemies reflect phys so idk.
supple oak
i mean
if you wanted a canon moveset the mutation lineages were rebalanced specifically to do that
true gorge
Also, dekunda is kind of useless in this game.
supple oak
that's why Cleave is the only phys skill that ends with an AoE in its lineage
supple oak
Also, dekunda is kind of useless in this game.
it has saved my ass actually
true gorge
how so? I mean the worst thing it can do is debuff your defense, followed by your accuracy
I know I had a couple of times where it would have been useful, but these are so few and far in between that sacrificing a slot, especially on Izanagi would be kind of ehhh
I do have dekunda on my other personas, but I ditched it right away with teddie.
The only game where it was genuinely useful from experience was P3R
Teddie is really just Magic Aigis huh...
Weak to Elec
Has Tarukaja/Rakukaja/Dekunda
Wait a second, I'm starting to see a trend>
Morgana=Weak to Elec
Aigis=Weak to Elec
Teddie=Weak to Elec
Is the next poster/mascot character in P6 also going to be weak to elec?
supple oak
they're gonna be weak to wind with curse/dark resist 
true gorge
that's why Cleave is the only phys skill that ends with an AoE in its lineage
Personally, I'm not a fan of single>multi-hit.
true gorge
ok that's cool
Speaking of curse/dark, is P4 the only game where hama/mudo is good?
I swear it ALWAYS misses in P5, even if the enemy is weak
but in P4 it always hits...?
supple oak
Personally, I'm not a fan of single>multi-hit.
I understand, Blade of Fury is the exception only because it's at the end of Cleave's lineage which is Izanagi's upgrade path, making a "canon" Izanagi without stepping into God's Hand or other severes.
I made sure Skewer and Bash ended on stronger single targets as compensation, and the Deathbound lineage is a good pick-up to go past Izanagi's limits
true gorge
Hmm
supple oak
It's a way to keep the Izanagi only design without stepping into severes
supple oak
did you keep the mutation slot limits in mind
true gorge
yeah
I already implemented it
just got rid of single target ailment to multi target ailment
The skill scale is not the same as yours, however.
supple oak
I'm happy with my mutation lineages
It's a little biased, but it's a bias I can get behind
true gorge
Yep, fair enough.
I don't think they are bringing back the triple phys element in the remake for P4
supple oak
yeah def not
true gorge
But it would be cool if they differenciated the phys skills
because there is definitely a theme among those 3
true gorge
Yeah, but multi-hit will still be broken af lol.
Get to making the balance mod early haha.
Unless they do what you said in Metaphor
supple oak
I'm way more interested in the social sim half of p4 than its balance so I'm in no major rush
but i could do stuff
true gorge
How faithful was the P3 remake compared to normal P3
in terms of skills
I saw that magic did a lot more damage
and was very different compared to what I'm used to in P4 and P5
so it seems they stuck very close to the original balancing
true gorge
really? The scale was a lot different from P4 and P5, so they just did their own thing
supple oak
it's closer but still more p5 leaning
true gorge
I like how the spells are kind of expensive, especially the healing ones
Idk it felt kind of weird, but right at the same time
The only thing I kind of don't like is that Phys can be boosted.
Mainly because that takes slots away from the 8 persona slots. However, since equipment gives really good bonuses, I think it kind of works out.
And also because making an optimal build is really overpowered. I thought magic with boost+amp was already pretty good, but phys is just on another level.
supple oak
i like phys boosts as an idea
i would much rather have them implemented somehow but higher base + boost made it simply too strong
true gorge
If it's just the normal boost I think it's fine
because boost+amp is pretty much double damage
they should at least be weaker or smth
1.15 and 1.30 dmg
supple oak
nah just have more magic variety tbh
magic's issue is that it's 1 spell with 3 tiers
it's stagnant as shit
this doesn't happen in smt
true gorge
Like stagnant air
How does it work in smt?
I like the simplicity of it, though I hope they bring back the procs for paralysis/freeze in the remake. I also think the base magic damage is pretty good as it is in P4. I know smt has some wacky stuff like actually useful drain spells.
supple oak
How does it work in smt?
smt simply just has more variety because magic has procs, multihits, randomhits, etc
there's more magic spells which means magic doesn't stagnate in 3 tiers
true gorge
Ah okay. I always saw magic as accurate, safe ways of dealing damage. And phys as riskier, less accurate ways of doing so.
supple oak
while phys keeps getting new spells
true gorge
I think it's because phys is just wacky by default.
You get your standard "safe" attacks with high accuracy, and your wacky multi-hit, low accuracy ones that might 1 shot the enemy, or do a pea's worth of damage.
Ah yes... just like how I remember it
dusky thicket
skill issue
I didn't really read through all of this was there anything relevant to the mod in terms of changes/suggestions
true gorge
no, just banter
but some enemies in the game dungeon seem to do pitiful amounts of damage
though I have not experienced this myself with things other than multi-hits
dusky thicket
yeah I think that was brought up, just stats right
true gorge
I think so. I remember I mentioned level scaling, but this was mainly why.
It's just easier to balance things without having to take into account the extra crazy underleveled multiplier.
Because while something might almost 1-shot you, if you are at about the same level as the enemy (mind you, like 5 levels under them), they will pretty much do almost no damage.
So if someone plays on normal and are not severely underleveled, the attacks will not pose any meaningful threat, whereas if someone plays with the crippled XP, the fight will be supe, super close.
dusky thicket
I mean level scaling is a part of every persona game so like
true gorge
I just feel like there should be less disparity between those two.
dusky thicket
I'm curious how it is on normal bc I can tell you that when I was very casual and playing through the game on normal years ago, enemies did enough damage to me that I couldn't just ignore them, but not enough that I had to try hard every fight
I can't imagine this mod made enemies much easier
true gorge
I think it probably stayed the same, but made things a bit more challenging.
I played on very hard, but whenever I would get party members, they would be higher level than my party and I could really see the difference.
dusky thicket
that's not so bad. maybe you could bump up enemy stats slightly in late game to make them slightly more of a threat too, idk
but it's late game
can't think of a single persona game that is hard in late game
true gorge
Late game enemies are fine, at least on very hard. They 1 shot you lol.
I will say, the enemies in the final dungeon do need a level bump
because they are the same level as in the hollow forest.
dusky thicket
hollow forest isn't really intended to give you much XP tbf lol
true gorge
So the game does not feel "very hard" because by the time you get to the final dungeon, you are pretty much the same lv as them.
dusky thicket
original game had you going from magatsu to yomotsu so
I think reducing XP in hollow forest is probably the better play there to account for people skipping that dungeon (if any action is to be taken)
true gorge
Right, that might be because I was trying to obtain money/materials. So I finished the hollow forest at Lv 75.
Lv 65 at the end of Magatsu Inaba (I grinded a bit after that for money/materials)
Lv 72 at the end the Hollow Forest
Lv 75 for the final boss.
I think it's probably fine, but it did feel weird finally catching up to the dungeon levels.
dusky thicket
yeah I think average casual player will not be far off from the dungeon levels (probably a few levels under) on normal
but this isn't exactly a mod made with casual players in mind right lol
supple oak
it is and it isn't
dusky thicket
what does that mean
true gorge
From my understanding, it's not a super tryhard overhaul.
So everyone can just kind of enjoy it
dusky thicket
well I mean it's moreso, I don't think the average casual player is going to use mods at all let alone this one lol
but yeah it's definitely not a difficulty mod
true gorge
Yeah that's true
You do have different tiers of casual people though.
Like, I just like quality of life stuff that is fairly faithful to the source material.
dusky thicket
yeah anyways - a lot of casual players will just like. avoid enemy encounters or they'll just not play very well (so poor HP/SP management)
so better players will just take advantage of gold hands (unless they intentionally choose not to) and get over leveled af but that's not really the case with casual players
dusky thicket
I did it too lmao and I was above average compared to my friends (I'd played P5 and P5R before, but they played P4G as their first)
supple oak
~~what does that mean~~
it's made for everyone but casuals don't care to begin with
true gorge
Because the rewards you get from farming are just not worth it.
dusky thicket
bit of a tangent anyways but yeah I fw keeping the difficulty not too far off from how it normally is
supple oak
i can't lie the game still feels extremely vanilla
if I didn't know better I would've assumed it was unmodded
true gorge
x2
I guess that means the spreadsheet data was on point.
But we'll know soon enough after the test run.
I think some changes made were not really necessary, but since they are additions rather than replacements, it's doubtful if anyone would have an issue with them.
So if someone wants to play p4g golden, super remastered/revised (golden), this would do the trick.
dusky thicket
yeah I think the biggest things to change are some small balance things related to changing damage, and changing a few skills around
supple oak
the baby fight is so asscheeks
not mitsuo
the striptease one
you can pretty much just bully it into submission with all out attacks and yosuke spamming dekaja
enters a loop
true gorge
Same thing with the heaven boss fight.
If you use 2 debuffs, he keeps spamming dekaja and you can keep him like that for the whole fight
Contrarian king set such a strong precedent for the optional bosses; yet, everything after that is never as challenging. I mean, even without the rampage bs, he still puts up a fight.
That baby does have a metric ton of HP for some reason though.
supple oak
i increased it a bit too because i made it take more phys damage but tbh it didnt even need that
supple oak
honestly? mitsuo was considerably easier than I was expecting
it gapped me by like 8 levels too, with some party members being gapped even harder
dusky thicket
nice thumbnails
dusky thicket
what changes does this one have?
supple oak
ikr
the bosses within and uhhhh
im not too sure if i fixed anything
but bosses
i update with every dungeon just to be pragmatic
i have some thoughts on the party rebalances but i probably won't submit change until i'm done
because i dont want to invalidate the tests
i like how yosuke is a fine pick here not because of his kit but because of teddie's existence
and will likely remain that way in the lab too
poor yukiko is getting shafted until the endgame
that tarunda is helpful for a bit
worldly jasper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crtWsdjjf6w
wtf is that weapon your mc is holding lmao
i'm dying
worldly jasper
shit looks goofy af
supple oak
its the third agility upgrade weapon
you get a katana
artisan upgrades to a mop
mop finishes a quest
quest gives broom
its a downgrade in vanilla
i think
supple oak
yup
no his ass was uh
pretty essential
divine grace mediarama pulls weight
more weight than amagi for sure
worldly jasper
amagi still have media at that time?
supple oak
uhhhh well i benched her the entire dungeon
teddie has mediarama native
- divine blessing from accessory
because of tanaka
i would probably either buff media so yukiko isn't entirely fucked or have some kind of tradeoff
teddie can be better with the accessory
yukiko could be better with something else
like i get the idea
yukiko with media and divine is better than teddie's mediarama
and thats why he has it native
but tanaka sells you that shit
it's practically scripted
worldly jasper
tbf yukiko has higher ma, earlier access to boost and tarunda ig
once teddie gets matarukaja he kinda mogs for a bit tho
supple oak
and as i've learned it seems like the vows do in fact stack
i have chie doing hella ice damage
lmfao
worldly jasper
yea this was known
i just dunno if like
+25% weapon stacks with fire boost
for example
worldly jasper
ah yea that was my guess
supple oak
it gives you boost
thats why i'm debating whether or not to remove elec boost from kanji
and have him use thunder plate
worldly jasper
the thing with the vows is just that like their practicality is a bit weird in base game especially for the mc because boost + amp already hits cap and obtaining them is random
supple oak
but that locks him with that weapon for the entire game
worldly jasper
yosuke with like +40% wind goes crazy
helps them like
almost keep up with base game kanji
lmao
supple oak
i guess they actually add an element of RNG to your playthrough too
whoever's good to take could change with that
vows are pretty fkn rare
worldly jasper
it'd be kinda raw if all the individual multipliers were lower so the accessories still had purpose post-amp but that requires way too much retooling lol
and yeah it's like both a mixed of rng and then like a knowledge check
supple oak
uh
worldly jasper
only spawn on certain floors iirc
supple oak
yeah cuz even the 10% one is ass if you have both passives right
since it caps by itself
?
worldly jasper
yea
i meant like
if boost + amp were individually weaker
so shit was like
15% boost, 30% amp, and the accessories were like 5/10/15/20/25
supple oak
i heard some dude say the cap is actually higher to accommodate for the vows but i haven't tested it
supple oak
15% boost, 30% amp, and the accessories were like 5/10/15/20/25
only reason i would maybe disagree is that accessories are generally stand-ins for skill slots, so if you have boost/amp that's technically a new accessory you could take
worldly jasper
if there were no cap it'd be pretty great for magic
supple oak
too great i think? i'm finding an awesome balance between magic and phys rn
even with busted ass izanagi
worldly jasper
only reason i would maybe disagree is that accessories are generally stand-ins f...
yea but i think it'd be cool if like truly maximising magic damage took some degree of sacrifice for your build, but its hard to make it not overcentralising
supple oak
ye
honestly i know its silly as fuck on paper but the blade of fury mutation for izanagi felt really rewarding idk how to explain it
worldly jasper
the boosts feel a bit too good but at the same time it's kinda like them only taking two slots is quite a blessing
cus you can still have a unique build even if the boosts feel required
supple oak
plus i'm still using other personas its just that izanagi is very central
worldly jasper
ig the downside to him would be like
supple oak
which i'm not opposed to as a design thing if shuffle time was more consistent or something
worldly jasper
to get boosters you'd need skill cards
supple oak
yeah i've been fiending for a resist wind card so i can mutate it into null but i've only gotten resist ice so far
worldly jasper
so generally you're probably losing dps to stick with him unless you're lucky
i forget what sword rank they come
worldly jasper
oh i meant boost/amp
worldly jasper
also woah
seeing p4g now looks weird as shit cus like
even in 16:9 it doesn't look stretched or like a mobile game
unlike p3p lol
supple oak
well golden was designed for it all things considered
worldly jasper
is it cus of mods you're using or is the game just like dat
supple oak
yeah no the game is fine for it
by design
some changes were made
shoutout stellanoxeclair
like the cherry blossom tree in the school
thats gone
green now
and a bit more out of the way i think
worldly jasper
sovlless...
supple oak
i love how golden's whole thing is the fusion spells
and teddie's is bugged
and has been
on all releases
worldly jasper
is it really
supple oak
yeah he doesn't do his animation he just does the basic idle and yosuke clips into him
worldly jasper
summer dream in p3 also has some unused effects which never show up in real gameplay
worldly jasper
ohhhh
you mean those
yea i've had that happen before
but sometimes it works normally
supple oak
i hear its bugged in void quest
so maybe thats it
but i know human form works
i usually always go twin dragons so
i didnt see junes bomber much
and i only saw beauty and beast once
while farming risette fan
i benched kanji the entire game lmfao
supple oak
i p much always took yosuke/chie yukiko and teddie
then naoto yukiko teddie
and kanji never got any action the entire game
worldly jasper
kanji's so cool
i like my dumb fanfiction idea for how to make him a healer
only problem is that it'd mean p4 has 3 healers with only 6 members
supple oak
power charge is taking me out
it's insane this early imo but it's also like
the only thing making this game actually not grindy
i haven't backtracked a single time yet for any boss battle i think that's impressive in a game like this
esp considering my first time around i'd grind for like 2 hours for each boss
worldly jasper
i think kanji being insane for single target damage is kind of fine just cus he has no real multi-target damage at all
maybe its a lil bit extreme but it's like
worldly jasper
what else is he gonna do ngl
supple oak
i think he's the only actually blatant and obvious "do not ever bench me" no brainer
both in the vanilla game and this mod
worldly jasper
yeah for sure
supple oak
which honestly kinda works for me
cuz like
if you want variety, you'll do chie and yukiko in the early dungeons for twin dragons
worldly jasper
for me it was always like
supple oak
then bring along yosuke for teddie's
worldly jasper
kanji and teddie were the obvious mainstays and chie was just the one left over
supple oak
and when you get naoto, kanji will be on a good level because you took him with you the entire time
so like
it actually works out?
lmao
if you care about the fusion spells that is
which frankly, they have been helpful
aoa + rise + fusion is pretty good
i cant lie
worldly jasper
i kinda wish they all did different things ngl but like idk how well you could convey that
supple oak
if it gets us marie in the party i dont care
supple oak
i would also be okay with that if they added something that justified it
dusky thicket
i update with every dungeon just to be pragmatic
what are you changing? just like stats/HP/etc?
supple oak
i will usually buff enemies that i kill too easily
there's some oversights i hadnt fixed yet like some bosses having sharp student for no reason
i made mitsuo crittable because i figured out a workaround
removing hidden weaknesses
etc
dusky thicket
i would probably either buff media so yukiko isn't entirely fucked or have some ...
perhaps Yukiko just gets her healing magic earlier? could also give her boost amp earlier if there's room
dusky thicket
but that locks him with that weapon for the entire game
late elec boost would probably prevent that (still backreading so hang on lol)
supple oak
i like how its technically preferable to stall out rise's dungeon if you want the izanagi build in vanilla
since there's less majors in the pool
dusky thicket
ok I'm done back reading lol
supple oak
ye like i said anything major or anything that would "invalidate" the bosses i had already battled is locked out and i will not change until i'm done with the entire thing
yes he gets it innate which is fine, that's not the issue
atlus' idea behind the design here was:
yukiko has weaker healing but divine grace puts it on par
teddie has it innate but no divine grace
tanaka sells you the divine grace ring which makes teddie better
it can also drop in void quest locked chests
at the end of void quest you'd be level 43 which would put yukiko back on top dog in healing
but there's an inbalance in very hard
- tanaka is really obvious lol
also
wait
are you sure the chart is properly done
teddie had auto rakukaja
which you have here as removed
he learned masukunda at rank 6 and not dekunda
which weirded me out a bit because i remember being asked if i had it for mitsuo because "it would help"
so is it just wrong
he also never had recarm
Yeah lmfao
y'all put auto rakukaja on ted as innate when the chart says recarm
but honestly i dont mind
recarm gives yukiko an "edge"
@dusky thicket ok error found
But i think i prefer the error ngl
Auto-Rakukaja is erroneously on rank 2 (innate) on teddie instead of Recarm, but this is fine because we spoke about tanky ted being fine and recarm should be an edge for yukiko
rank 4 is masukunda i was just confused
dusky thicket
I think I wasn't the one who worked on the template itself
dusky thicket
so uhhhh not my fault 
supple oak
not your fault but the excel sheet is incorrect
plus we talked about this im sure
so maybe the auto rakukaja was a last minute thing and we never updated?
dusky thicket
I'm a bit distracted so hang on
dusky thicket
auto-raku is a stock move
so whatever changes were made, I guess auto-raku wasn't changed. it was indeed supposed to be recarm
dusky thicket
Auto-Rakukaja is erroneously on rank 2 (innate) on teddie instead of Recarm, but...
can you briefly go over tanky ted again bc I do not remember this convo
the Teddie stuff is definitely a bit weird. that's definitely not stock behavior so the only thing I can conclude is that the template being used must've been wrong or something
I know there was some weird behavior with the template earlier...
supple oak
can you briefly go over tanky ted again bc I do not remember this convo
Teddie's SL innate is Auto-Raku then Recarm
CBT intended to remove Auto-Raku and instead have Recarm then Masukunda, but instead the opposite was done
I'm thinking this accident ended better off regardless, because Recarm gives Yukiko some uniqueness and we joked around about Teddie being a tank in the past. In fact this is even implemented because his ultimate weapon is spell resist and his bike5 is resist phys
https://tenor.com/view/yu-trying-to-push-teddie-persona-4-golden-persona-yu-gif-13567772634627913479
it's canon.
dusky thicket
true...
I think Teddie currently has samarecarm in his leveling kit right?
is that fine?
dusky thicket
could be possible to just. remove Teddie's revives since he already has support lol. gives Yukiko another skill over him but it's also not a defining skill since items exist and it's late game
supple oak
yeah
dusky thicket
when I get home I'll go throw together a new sheet with proposed changes so all the previous feedback is written down somewhere besides being scattered in this thread
it is funny for both Teddie and kanji to get auto raku
I think we had been trying to avoid that initially
supple oak
oh yea
they do
not a huge deal honestly. auto tarukaja is the only one i'd consider a red flag
you're getting auto-mas eventually so
dusky thicket
should kanji get auto-raku sooner than Teddie?
dusky thicket
should he
supple oak
i dont think he needs it at all
for teddie it's awesome
bulky healer, that's awesome
dusky thicket
don't see those very often I suppose lol
supple oak
im also p sure i even deleted recarm from yukiko because of revival beads
im not sure
dusky thicket
that's funny
hexed kettle
dusky thicket
think you'd mentioned Yukiko falling off at this point until end game too but like idk what can be done about that while staying in the confines of standard magic
hey if it ends up being a positive change, it works out
supple oak
im thinking a very slight buff to media and a very slight hastening of mediarama
amrita is also great for mitsuo... actually
if you knew ahead of time he spams fear and you had leveled her up that is
dusky thicket
S6 seems pretty reasonable for the 4th dungeon anyways
supple oak
Her tarunda + a buffed media with divine or even mediarama after leveling up is uh
really reasonable
supple oak
S6 seems pretty reasonable for the 4th dungeon anyways
i'm already in romance with her so yes
dusky thicket
lmao
it would be possible to shift mediarama down (same with maragion too actually) but there's going to be this awkward gap around lvl 40-50 where she gets no meaningful skills
besides spirit drain which as we all know is extremely meta defining
supple oak
yeah ultimately between recarm or auto rakukaja i can't really bring myself to care which one is actually in the kit, but after playing void quest with him in the party i can assuredly say that yukiko having more unique stuff to her kit would justify bringing her, and recarm is one of those things
though ironically, she's squishy, so she might be the one in need of getting recarmed
dusky thicket
well that's what tarunda is for right lol
although I'd imagine it falls off by that pt
supple oak
plus the extremely bulky teddie is just. sorry its really funny and i like it
it plays in with how he becomes super strong after awakening with the whole pushups thing too
dusky thicket
nah I fw it too, I'm cool with making that change official
yea
yeah idk if you have any suggestions for Yukiko's skills around 40-50 but I also don't know if you're there yet given very hard xp
supple oak
masukunda was a really random choice if i'm being entirely honest but i guess it had to go somewhere
supple oak
yeah idk if you have any suggestions for Yukiko's skills around 40-50 but I also...
i've been posting every second of gameplay 
can check my end of mitsuo
dusky thicket
I haven't watched yet
supple oak
yukiko 43 is kinda unrealistic, 40 or 41 however ehhh stretching it but not too much
honestly fuck diarama man
diarama is probably part of the reason she gets mediarama so late
dusky thicket
you can kinda see the issue I'm running into with skills though right
supple oak
yea ofc
dusky thicket
even one more skill to pad it out would be nice
moving agidyne down a level or two would be funny too but I'll hold off on that
supple oak
let me think
but again let me just say again any change that affects progress i've already gone through is gonna have to wait till i beat this run
i need the run to be a valid one
dusky thicket
right yea
I think I'm ok with moving mediarama down to like 41 but I wouldn't go any lower than that tbh
supple oak
i have saves for every calendar day so if there's something mega important i can probably just load a boss and save edit the changed skill
dusky thicket
42 would be good enough to just get it for Mitsuo on normal XP I think
supple oak
i have kanji at rank 7 so you can actually replace auto rakukaja if you don't want two characters with it
