#Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks

1 messages · Page 6 of 1

dusky thicket
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garula slightly earlier than kanji much later than yukiko

true gorge
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ok im double checking rampage lol

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making sure i did not give it the wrong one

worldly jasper
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garura 24 and power slash 27 purrhaps?

dusky thicket
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one step ahead of you lol

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had those exact levels too actually

worldly jasper
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oh woah

dusky thicket
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funny enough

worldly jasper
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exact same

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awesome

dusky thicket
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great minds or something like that

true gorge
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seems kind of close,

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why dont we make it 48

supple oak
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2 lvl gap minimum is probably best

dusky thicket
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stand by on that

dusky thicket
worldly jasper
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perusona 3 has several 1 level gaps

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in the official game

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so its chill

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p4 has a couple too

true gorge
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48 is nice

supple oak
true gorge
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3 and 4

dusky thicket
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is blade of fury at 48 still ok ecs wise?

supple oak
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ecs doesnt take level into account

worldly jasper
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bwade of fuwy

true gorge
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it's 2 levels T-T

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just a matter of aesthetics

dusky thicket
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true i guess it doesnt matter

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you wont have it for mitsuo boss most likely

true gorge
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mitsuo is 45 no?

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man idk if it is sleep depravation or smth

dusky thicket
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on normal xp you'll probably be a bit below the recommended levels

true gorge
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but i cant type for shit

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hopefully i make the table right

true gorge
dusky thicket
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the average player will probably be around that lvl then how about that

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if you do the standard strategy of fighting every shadow you see but not going out of your way to farm a lot of gold hands

worldly jasper
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average player attempting to fight a gold hand would be funny

dusky thicket
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big gap

image.png
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oh well

worldly jasper
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yukiko doing agilao into a drain then missing 2 basic attacks

dusky thicket
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in base game, fire boost is there

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but i think we can all agree that having fire boost earlier is better

worldly jasper
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matarunda 😈

dusky thicket
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B2

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spirit drain would be pretty funny there actually

worldly jasper
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some random bloat ailment spell 😈

dusky thicket
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B1

worldly jasper
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spirit drain is shit but like i gueeessssss

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goatsuru gets it at 30

dusky thicket
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man idk what to put between 43 and 51

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lol

worldly jasper
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but like protag gets it a bit later

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im kinda pro matarunda but like then the bike slot is emptied

supple oak
worldly jasper
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wait does yukiko have mudoon still

dusky thicket
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yes

worldly jasper
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can u post the page

dusky thicket
worldly jasper
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its hard to conceptualise without it in front of me cus im scatterbrained

dusky thicket
worldly jasper
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danke

dusky thicket
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this is good for me too so i dont lose it haha

worldly jasper
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i mean spirit drain works but its kind of a bloat skill

dusky thicket
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unnerfing maragion (40 -> 39)

worldly jasper
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well not bloat but like filler

dusky thicket
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yeah i just dont know what she could get between mediarama and agidhain

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feels like a big gap too

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8 levels

worldly jasper
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yea i think if you're not planning to make matarunda into base kit then there's no other pick really

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and average player probably values sp more than i do lol

dusky thicket
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spirit drain is late even then ngl

worldly jasper
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spirit drain 46?

dusky thicket
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it's a bad skill lol

worldly jasper
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it is but like

dusky thicket
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but oh well

true gorge
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so huh

dusky thicket
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mhm

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that's a thing

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it used to be worse

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that's stock

true gorge
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shio said to swap high counter

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and rainy death

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or smth along those lines

dusky thicket
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i dont agree

worldly jasper
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i think 60~ would be better

dusky thicket
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rainy death is too strong to go much lower

worldly jasper
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63 feels a tad late

dusky thicket
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i could move high counter up but it feels useless then

true gorge
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Then it stays as it is

worldly jasper
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either that or like

dusky thicket
true gorge
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I would presonally lower its dmg

worldly jasper
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just lower rainy death power a bit

true gorge
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it was 195 in base

dusky thicket
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475 high crit

worldly jasper
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but its up to yall

true gorge
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vs gigantic fist at 330

dusky thicket
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it's strong rn

true gorge
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i don't know why you buffed it so much

worldly jasper
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i think gigan fist should probs have higher power than it lol

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but like that goes against the rank thing or whatever

true gorge
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i mean at that point why even have rainy death

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just remove it and go straight to gots hand lol

dusky thicket
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there arent many rank 7 skills huh

worldly jasper
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i mean tbf

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there's more reason to keep rainy death now

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fosho

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compared to base game

true gorge
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higher crit rate ig

dusky thicket
worldly jasper
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by a lot

true gorge
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maybe that was the intent from the beginning

worldly jasper
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god hand is like 10% crit

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while rainy death is 35 lol

true gorge
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ill move on

dusky thicket
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well I think rainy death could be nerfed while being a rank 7 appropriate skill

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vile assault is 350, rainy death is 475

supple oak
worldly jasper
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i'd balance it a bit differently but like also having at least A skill in between 300 power and fucking 700 is a good idea

dusky thicket
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that's the high end of rank 6 vs the low end of rank 7

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not that there's much in rank 7

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maybe 400-430 base power for rainy death?

true gorge
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Btw guys

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if you do make any changes after this

dusky thicket
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honestly though

true gorge
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please put them in red in the final table (preferrably not the changes table)

dusky thicket
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a 7 level gap between rainy death and god hand seems fine to me

true gorge
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so that we it makes it easier to swap the table around

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when editing the tbl

dusky thicket
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high counter would become absolutely a filler skill if we moved it up

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but if you think it would be better overall

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as if it isn't already a filler skill

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what the

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it's not 50% anymore???

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so proud of them

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i might leave this be to be honest

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dont see a need to change high counter and with the power of rainy death it's fine at 63

supple oak
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yes

dusky thicket
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63 means it'll probably be usable for namatame boss fight anyways

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then god's hand and agneyastra are endgame

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so whatever

supple oak
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removing rainy death was kind of a random suggestion ngl

dusky thicket
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just checking for any more problematic level gaps

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that was never going to happen

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the only thing that sucks is that the level gap is kinda large

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but whatever

supple oak
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i think its only bad on paper

dusky thicket
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naoto is the only one with bad leveling

true gorge
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It was not a serious suggestion

dusky thicket
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cramming a ton of skills into lvl 58-61

true gorge
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i was just talking trash lol

dusky thicket
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honestly i am thinking of moving the AOE insta kills up slightly in level to spread things out a bit

true gorge
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Or

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make her starting level lower

dusky thicket
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no

supple oak
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nop

dusky thicket
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nop as well

true gorge
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sheesh tough crowd

dusky thicket
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does this look ok?

image.png
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slight level adjustment

supple oak
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ig? pushing everything a level up just means one more hand

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xdd

dusky thicket
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true

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lol

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i just think it looks slightly nicer than compressing everything a ton at the start

true gorge
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I still think we should just make her start with invig 2

supple oak
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i dont think it's worth doing that

dusky thicket
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ok, i'm done lol

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i am curious to see how this goes when you test it

supple oak
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im sure it'll be fine

true gorge
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dont forget to make the new changes red

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on yusuke and chie and whoever you changed

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im on kanji rn

dusky thicket
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I just changed Naoto

supple oak
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then its fine yeah

dusky thicket
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I left Chie as is

true gorge
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you moved power slash back no

dusky thicket
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oh yeah I did

true gorge
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whatever ill just redo him

dusky thicket
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tentarafoo to mind slice may be different

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Chie: blade of fury is 48

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Yukiko: spirit drain 46 (new skill)

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Naoto: a bunch of small level changes

true gorge
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yukiko is fine

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it was just yosuke and chie i had to correct

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thx

dusky thicket
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yeah I'm done at this point though it's really late and I should not be up rn

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I would just leave any changes be at this point but we've looked over this like 50 times

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it'll probably be fine

supple oak
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making changes while inputting the data is definitely not recommended

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i think we're done lol

true gorge
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Okay I think it's done.

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I double checked, but I'm also sleep deprived

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so i suggest someone goes and x2 checks it

supple oak
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i will in fact x2 check it

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but im p sure this is it then

true gorge
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nice

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im out cold, gj today

supple oak
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👍

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guess i have a playthrough of p4g to start

true gorge
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do you want a save to skip the intro?

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actually there is probably one of those around... whatever enjoy lol

supple oak
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i in fact do not want one because i am playing the game

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lol

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i also made saves for every timeslot of the calendar

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they're publically available

supple oak
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pretty funny that after changing all descriptions theres only one Heavy Phys skill in the entire game

supple oak
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@cunning pelican just two things:

  1. Signature Skills and Detailed Descriptions aren't actually compatible, not too sure why

  2. Can I steal detailed descriptions for this lol

cunning pelican
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So THIS is why ive started receiving pings for every message in this thread lool

supple oak
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LOL

cunning pelican
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Yes you can steal it. Just credit me. A compatibility patch would be my real preference but I have so little interest in modding atm that I dont want to keep you guys waiting for that

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Dunno about sig skills. Will message bonq

supple oak
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bonq is banned on several accounts

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doubt it can be fixed

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ask max to give you the page or something idk

cunning pelican
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I probably just need to restructure detailed descriptions for newer reloaded merging stuff. It's not been updated in a long time

supple oak
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yeah DD is a full replacement so hooks dont work with it

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thats why i need to steal it for my mod

supple oak
cunning pelican
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I haven't followed this thread closely. Am I right in thinking a restructure update from me to support merging properly might actually be better? Two birds one stone (this and sig skills)?

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Or would you need to steal/compat patch regardless?

supple oak
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possibly? i had to edit the description of every phys skill anyway

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it changes so many that making DD a dependency becomes almost symbolic

cunning pelican
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Ok well you have my permission

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If i do bother to update detailed descriptions, I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

supple oak
cunning pelican
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Did I share my "fuck smt wiki" sheet with all the skill properties and new descriptions? Could be helpful for you guys if not

supple oak
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you did, years ago yeah

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nowadays i use the aqiu damage calculator since it has all the info readily available

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level obtained etc

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our v1 is basically finished

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only concern is phys technically jumping from medium to severe with only one of them being heavy

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that is, description wise

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progression wise there's multihits and stuff

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i had to change your scale

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0-39 [Miniscule]
40-99 [Light]
100-219 [Medium]
220-349 [Heavy]
350-649 [Severe]
650-799 [Massive]
800+ [Extreme]

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megido goes from medium to severe because of this too so idk

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probably needs some tweaking on the description end of things

cunning pelican
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Ok cool. Sounds like you guys are on top of it 👍

cunning pelican
supple oak
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ah

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sounds good

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p4g is technically the largest mod library

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recreating some of it in p4r sounds pretty fun

cunning pelican
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💯
P4 is already a near-perfect game to me and basically the whole reason i got into modding was to try and bring it closer. I love the thought of being able to do that with the remake using everything we've learned since 2020.

supple oak
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yup

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my hope is that it's similar enough to p3r that rirurin's event tools can be used

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ive wanted this since 2021, creating new events

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adding stuff from the p4 anime sounds pretty good

cunning pelican
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Yeah that's the final frontier. Anime stuff was exactly what I was going to say lol

supple oak
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this of course assuming they dont add aika for us

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0% chance but im hoping

cunning pelican
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Last off-topic from me before people following this thread get annoyed lol: my actual longest held idea ive never been able to do was modifying the final cutscene to make Narukami speak during the farewell train scene. They do that so well in the og anime where he sounds choked up, and I thought it would be so powerful if that was in the game as the only time you ever heard him speak a sentence

supple oak
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yeah i could see that

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i'm a pretty strong believer of keeping the MC silent in persona

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(big fear that they'll remove this with 6)

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but having one strong line is fine

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p5 does it

cunning pelican
supple oak
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well

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technically you can now!

cunning pelican
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I can?

supple oak
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isolation AI has gotten extremely good to the point that you can rip out the music from any video and leave only the voice

cunning pelican
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Maybe I'll make a concept thread and see if anyone can suggest the best tools. I tried with some online stuff a while ago and the results were pretty bad

supple oak
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i use UVR5

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i mean

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give me the timestamp and i can try it rn

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ah 1293 seconds

cunning pelican
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I've got a blu-ray rip of the episode too, but can't send atm since working

cunning pelican
supple oak
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ahhh the fact that there's vocals in the music might mess it up a bit

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i'll still try ig

supple oak
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too much interference

cunning pelican
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Yup 🫠

supple oak
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there's maybe some manual inversion you can do if you actually take the anime ost

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and time the samples perfectly

cunning pelican
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Thanks for trying though

supple oak
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but that's wayyyy harder

true gorge
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rudiger thank you for your detailed desc mod 🙏 you have saved me countless hours from having to check the wiki for quests/ slink availability

cunning pelican
true gorge
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Nice! Thanks.

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(Again lol)

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Interesting to see that amagidyne is stronger than prominence

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On that note, severe skill names used to be so much cooler lol.

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Cocytus pain>>ice age

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But why is the rage skill called balzac 😭

cunning pelican
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Suck my balzac

dusky thicket
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I guess that's why

dusky thicket
dusky thicket
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it's my favorite intro tbh tbh idc that it's slow

true gorge
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Yeah, I agree. I have been replaying the game recently after a few years and I find myself just as invested (if not more) than during my first playthrough. I'm just surprised to see how well this game stacks up.

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Plus all the vanilla+ mod enhancements really make it the best way to play the game.

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P3P really got the short end of the stick, considering how good the port of p4 is. It just works so well. I just wish you could move the camera with the mouse (I play with controller, but still).

dusky thicket
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is there anything left to do for this mod or is that it?

sleek cloud
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50% High-Counter

true gorge
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Hear me out

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I take it back, it was probably a bad idea anyway lol

dusky thicket
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I do think it wouldn't hurt to give counter a bit of a buff given there isn't 3 element split in P4 but also it's kinda beyond the scope of this mod I think

true gorge
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15 23 35

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I like the idea tbh it would mostly help chie

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and since you get counter so early now

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you could cheese contrarian king a bit more easily

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so that would be nice

supple oak
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counter is hardcoded

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I'm not bothering

supple oak
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there's only one heavy phys now

dusky thicket
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oof

true gorge
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Why not expand the heavy range (that way you can throw rainy death and gigantic fist together + whatever multi-target phys fall in the lower severe range currently)

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and get rid of colossal/massive

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just like in p3r

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where brave blade is severe

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vorpal blade is heavy

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but then again, that game has boosts/amps

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pretty much phys skills are like gun skills in p5 where the highest tier is severe

supple oak
true gorge
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Well there is no normal massive dmg for phys

supple oak
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yes there is??

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god's hand is massive

true gorge
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Is it? Oh yes you are right

supple oak
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800+ is massive iirc

true gorge
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then forget what i said

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that's kinda busted now that i think about it

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even if they did make magic stronger in reload

supple oak
true gorge
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Oh maybe cz the arke mod lowers dmg limits and edits descriptions

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So Primal force would be extreme

supple oak
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yeah, it would

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god's hand too tbf

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Kiwami dmg troll

true gorge
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I'd say combine massive and extreme

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ik its not the main issue

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but they are only 15% dmg apart

supple oak
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i disagree

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there needs to be a distinction

true gorge
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yeah then thats fine

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I thought you would just have 1 extreme skill

supple oak
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no there's like 6

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heavy only 1 on phys

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that's the prob

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megido fucks up the scale

dusky thicket
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what are megido/megidola/megidolaon rn?

true gorge
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180 smething 650

dusky thicket
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so medium/something/massive?

true gorge
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yeah

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not sure if it's massive tho

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i think its just severe

dusky thicket
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650 would be massive according to the scale sent above

true gorge
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oh yeah

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worst case make the dmg 630 lol

dusky thicket
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I thought megido was the one that fucked up the scale

true gorge
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you could just make almighty its own scale

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much like how phys is

dusky thicket
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personally I think Megidolaon should be severe and morning star massive (or bump them up one each) but I mean scales like this are arbitrary anyways

supple oak
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medium severe massive
180 400 650

dusky thicket
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ah so does megido fuck it up because it's too weak

true gorge
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if something is almighty dmg, you could follow the magic scale

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but just multiply the lower limits

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by the same factor

supple oak
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that's misinforming the player

true gorge
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i mean, phys already does this

supple oak
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the scale is the same always

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no it doesn't

dusky thicket
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speaking of the scale being the same

true gorge
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in base game that is

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and in p5

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but eh if we are trying to make an improvement i see your point

dusky thicket
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I always personally found that multi hit skills were hard to understand because does 2 light hits mean greater or less than 1 medium?

true gorge
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I assume light is roughly 0.75 a medium hit

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so 2 light is like 1.5 med

dusky thicket
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that's a vague example but there's many cases like that because of the ranges being vague in the first place

true gorge
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i think most people that play it would be used to it

dusky thicket
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I've played these games a lot and I disagree because there isn't enough consistency to come to any conclusion

true gorge
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you could have huh

supple oak
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"Extreme Phys damage as 8x Light hits"

true gorge
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(medium)

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at the end of description

supple oak
dusky thicket
supple oak
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sure

true gorge
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that too

dusky thicket
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thanks autocorrect

true gorge
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what about rampage

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Deals up to heavy damage in 1-3 hits

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or something like that

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That might make some descriptions a bit hard to fit in, but i think we could make it work ig

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I think this should be an optional addon.

dusky thicket
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honestly a good optional addon would be direct damage stats

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however Yuki did it with her mods

dusky thicket
true gorge
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Why dont we just do a playtest run first

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See how it goes and the adjust everything from there

dusky thicket
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yeah - forget my idea it would take too long haha

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I think the lack of more heavy phys skills is goofy but also you do have to take boost and amp into account for magic

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I think the only real way to address it is to change the ranges because everything is super arbitrary as is

supple oak
dusky thicket
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even as an optional addon?

supple oak
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yes

dusky thicket
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fair enough

supple oak
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people datamined MQ, minmaxed, and then complained about the lack of variety

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not having a repeat of this

true gorge
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Monster hunter quest?

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Ohh nvm master quest

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Ehh close enough...

true gorge
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And have their complaints

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And headcannons about what should have been done differently

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There is only so much you can do so just do what feels right ig. There is always a next time to make further revisions if needed.

true gorge
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why does the wiki list the dmg as 1600?

image.png
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Is it a typo, or is there something I'm not getting?

sleek cloud
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fandom wiki moment prob

harsh canyon
supple oak
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they used to prioritize japanese wikis over actual game data

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nowadays they do accept TBLs as a source

true gorge
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can't anyone edit it?

supple oak
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there's admins

true gorge
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so they approve changes i'm assuming

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for some reason all of the golden values are doubled for dmg^2

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btw meovv, how far have you gotten in your playthrough?

supple oak
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havent had time to start yet

true gorge
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and have there been any issues with the persona table? I was half-asleep while doing that

supple oak
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none that i could find

true gorge
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kk, take it easy then

true gorge
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But I started to use the github page since they did not have the party members updated for P3R

dusky thicket
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at one point the fandom wiki had 4 different values for amagidyne

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it's very unreliable, they pull numbers straight out of their ass and don't elaborate

supple oak
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they use p4 values for p4g sometimes

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consumables are all wrong

true gorge
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hey, do you guys know where the AI scripts are located?

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I've noticed some of the bosses have really exploitable AI

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For example, intolerant officer will always target yukiko first, so you can just trivialize him using mirrors.

dusky thicket
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maybe aicalc.tbl?

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good luck though

true gorge
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nop blank table with unnamed entries

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I know p5 had the script files in folders after unpacking

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but p4 is wierd with the init tables and all that

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oh also thanks

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oh wait no, you are right arkadia did this before, just found his post

dusky thicket
true gorge
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yeah it indeed does

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nice, it works now

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ok there he is

image.png
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if I just add some randomization here instead of being sequential, it should make the fight less exploitable

supple oak
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i have no intentions of editing enemy AI in this mod or making AI non-sequential

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exploiting AI is the only spice this game has

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fix that and everything becomes "damage + heal if you cant damage fast enough"

true gorge
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understood, just thought i'd share in case you guys ever needed smth like this

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i got ahead of myself so i apologize lol

supple oak
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its all good

cunning pelican
supple oak
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metaphor

cunning pelican
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Ah cool

supple oak
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weaker than severe which is stupid

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i just made it the highest

cunning pelican
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Lol

supple oak
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P3R uses massive

cunning pelican
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Ultimate was just for 1 hit ko stuff like galactic punt iirc

supple oak
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yup

cunning pelican
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Even "massive" isn't great. If I wasn't familiar with Persona and someone asked me to rank heavy, severe and massive based on how they sound, I think I'd say severe sounded more powerful than massive.

supple oak
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this comes with the subjectivity of the skills being learned later anyway

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but in the case of metaphor, severe is available from level 1

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so extreme really does sound off

supple oak
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bro whats up with wind of oblivion doing 96 damage and oneshotting before the tutorial even starts

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yeah its only supposed to do 29 damage, whats going on here

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??? when tf did i double the damage of wind of oblivion

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what

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literally when

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oh i buffed bottomless envy too?

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i genuinely did not remember this

supple oak
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billcosbyTRUE buffing it by a little bit actually does make the fight more interesting tbh

dusky thicket
supple oak
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shadow chie is uh

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really funny

#

if you crit her she assumes it was garu

#

and will break the AI

#

i wasn't expecting her to just instakill yosuke out of the gate turn 1 too

supple oak
#

and doing normal attack on the protag

#

which is still considerable damage

#

but considering that the alternative is mabufu

#

you can crit her to keep her in check

#

the crit rate on cleave is nutty lmao

#

15% but i got lucky as fuck ig

#

critted her like 7 times

dusky thicket
#

I wonder why

dusky thicket
worldly jasper
#

her AI's probably only checking for her being knocked down

#

not specifically for her weakness getting hit

dusky thicket
#

she's stupid 😭

supple oak
#

originally 20, made 40, obivously too much, made 25

#

damage is genuinely dangerous in very hard but tickles you on normal

#

i'll keep chie as is for now because i think hitting several 15% chance hits in a row is kinda crazy rng

supple oak
#

tbf

#

the more i check this out the more I'm feeling comfortable with doubling most enemy HP in project fes/mq2

#

enemies surviving the first four turns sometimes is refreshing

dusky thicket
#

yeah I understand people being annoyed at enemies being health sponges but you do sometimes run into the opposite issue

dusky thicket
#

are you planning to do a full playthrough before releasing?

true gorge
#

Meovv, whenever you can, check that chie has the right rampage skill.

#

I might have messed up there since when you type rampage for the skill, it defaults to the contrarian king one

supple oak
supple oak
#

i am seriously considering lowering shadow yukiko's HP

#

i get that they increased it because of the ice weakness but more than double is just illogical

#

this is literally aoa simulator and hoping SP doesnt run out

#

or grinding, pick one

#

or consumable check billcosbyTRUE

#

ah right i also gave the prince a fuckillion stat boosts

#

to have ps2 stats

#

tripled endurance might in fact explain why this fight is so painful

true gorge
#

hey meovv, can I get the zip for the test build?

#

I am also doing a playthrough rn so I can tell you if something feels off anywhere else.

true gorge
#

But if you nerfed double fangs, you might be able to last a bit longer since she won't 1 shot your party anymore.

#

It can be manageable if you give her an indication that she is going to do burn to ashes; otherwise, it is just a luck check with the increased stats.

supple oak
#

you're probably forgetting a few details

#

burn to ashes already has an indication

#

the more than doubled hp is from golden

#

double fangs still does insane amounts of damage

true gorge
#

Can't she just use it randomly when her health falls below a certain threshold?

supple oak
#

yeah but you'll probably just die before the threshold

true gorge
supple oak
#

very hard is extremely overtuned

#

tarunda is a complete waste of SP

#

the diamond shields are useful

true gorge
#

Have you considered lowering tarunda's cost to 8?

supple oak
#

idk

true gorge
#

i thought they were way too expensive too

#

but they are fun to use, SP is a big issue early on and using debuffs just opens your optiosn way more

supple oak
#

shit only really hits the fan when she spawns the prince tbh

#

i gave him the original ps2 stats

#

which just proves that blindly porting ps2 stats to p4g is a mistake

true gorge
#

What's your level?

supple oak
#

it triples his endurance and strength

#

he's stronger than her

true gorge
#

if anything, buff kanji's minions so that the fight feels just as challenging as yukiko's

supple oak
#

found 3 hands

true gorge
#

whaaat

#

how did you get lv 10

#

I had to do fkin lv 8 T-T and I extensively grinded

#

are you playing with normal XP?

supple oak
#

strictly very hard i dont do that cheating shit

true gorge
#

okok nice!

#

yeah revert the prince

supple oak
#

i did most of it izanagi only and switched to senri for the boss

true gorge
#

I usually take him down in 2 cycles due to dizzy/Rakunda

#

And abusing ice cubes+ball lightnings to get AoAs

supple oak
#

yeah the ps2 stats makes him basically tankier than her

#

its really funny

#

you need like 10 cycles to make him run

true gorge
#

You could lower the HP threshould at which he leaves

supple oak
#

that's ai

true gorge
#

I think that could be a good compromise

supple oak
#

and im not touching the ai

harsh canyon
#

did you half his more than doubled health in p4g

true gorge
#

okok

#

But meovv, I think the issue with yukiko is that

supple oak
#

his hp is the same in both versions its only yukiko that's bloated af

true gorge
#

after you deal with all that crap

#

you can just get 1 shotted out of nowhere

#

after you beat the prince, you gotta dps her down

supple oak
#

ok but like

#

there's a null fire persona at level 9

true gorge
#

basically the prelude to contrarian king

#

yeah that's true, you also have ukobach who resist fire, i think

supple oak
#

ukobach is too shit for this

#

but yes

true gorge
#

nahhh

#

you can use him to tank a burn to ashes

#

and heal your party

supple oak
#

ok but senri nulls it and can inherit bufu

true gorge
#

but then again, so can you with null fire lol

supple oak
#

from forneus

#

my senri ended up with all elements because of fusion forecast lmao

true gorge
#

Still though, the annoying part is dying after dealing with mr prince

#

since the first half is pretty uneventful

#

but i think it's fine tbh

supple oak
#

the fight is beatable at level 4 with a fuckton of consumables so i dont exactly want to tone it down ultra hard

#

just enough to make it not a grindfest in very hard

true gorge
#

I think the easiest solution

#

is to find a way to increase XP from very hard that would honestly solve most issues

supple oak
#

i'm going to attempt a median between ps2 and golden stats

#

it might work

true gorge
#

I like that idea.

#

But don't go crazy on the endurance. You could do some math to see how you can make the prince a bit more resistant

supple oak
#

yeah it's not a linear scale

harsh canyon
supple oak
#

median won't be 50/50

#

misinfo wiki strikes again? 850 listed on both games

#

yukiko info is correct

harsh canyon
#

ok so the "good" independent wiki is just copy pasted

#

lmao

true gorge
#

fighting rise at lv 24 wish me luck...

#

Most problems from very hard would go away if grinding did not suck so much.

#

The boss in yukiko is lv 15 or lv 11?

supple oak
#

lv15

true gorge
#

she might be dealing extreme damage due to being underleveled

#

okay yeah that's why double fangs pretty much 1 shot you even with the nerf.

supple oak
#

her damage is manageable with diamond shield

#

and i dont want to encourage hoarding marakukaja items

#

they're there specifically for the boss lol

#

it's a scripted one time spawn

true gorge
supple oak
#

i only have 1 bead lol

true gorge
#

I gave up on trying to maintain their hp

#

you can farm them i think

supple oak
#

i know

#

im trying to not farm

#

farm game is bad game

true gorge
#

I bought them tho. I got like 3-4

#

from the 10k at the beginning

supple oak
#

i did marie rank 1 and then jumped in immediately

#

i ignored the sport club prompt

#

xdd

true gorge
#

nahh man

#

i did it 4/18

cunning pelican
#

Btw are you guys changing boss ai at all?

true gorge
#

i think...

supple oak
true gorge
#

Hey if you need to, I'm up for it

supple oak
#

i found a small oversight with chie but it's not drastic enough that i care

true gorge
#

ik you dont want to but

#

you know....

#

the offer is there

supple oak
#

the enemy ai bf in p4g is a pain in the ass

#

compared to p5/p3r

true gorge
#

you think so?

#

i thought it was the same thing

supple oak
#

less known functions and its all bundled in the same bf man

#

p3r has per-enemy files

true gorge
#

thats better

#

now i have to compile only 1 file xdddd

supple oak
#

rip compatibility

#

i mean

#

hooking

true gorge
#

oh yeah thats true

#

idk how merging works

supple oak
#

i'm assuming people are using culprit fix with this

#

tbh

true gorge
#

we could ask the guy that made the mod

#

to see if he lets us use it for compatibility

supple oak
#

no point

dusky thicket
true gorge
#

well anyway, I'll let you work xd good luck

dusky thicket
# supple oak hooking

yeah iirc bf emulator still has the issue where if you try to hook the same function more than once it crashes lol

cunning pelican
#

I guess mod compatibility is way cleaner too if you don't. I was thinking about adachi ai fix and my bewildering fog restoration (boss ai)

dusky thicket
#

otherwise it wouldn't really matter as much although it'd still be annoying for compatibility

#

fog restoration?

supple oak
#

and yeah i might just nuke the fucking sharp student from these bosses

#

i get that being able to crit is a vector to making the fight easier

#

but i was literally landing one crit per attempt

cunning pelican
supple oak
dusky thicket
supple oak
#

the enemy uses the skill, and you changed the skill

#

vanilla AI makes use of the mod's change

cunning pelican
#

Yeah and when you change ai, you do so while considering the skills they have, etc. All affects overall balance. That's all I was trying to say. I don't mean to confuse or divert lol sorry.

supple oak
#

new revision

Yukiko
1775 HP
Mag 15
En 9

Prince
925 HP
10 St
14 Ma
8 En
20 Lu

dusky thicket
#

what are the old stats for reference?

supple oak
#

I had pushed all the stats to the PS2 ones where higher

#

otherwise just golden ones

#

these new stats are a median of ps2 and vita numbers

dusky thicket
#

I see

supple oak
#

it is on average a nerf of the boss across the board

#

but one that should be fine in this mod

true gorge
#

Is there like a way to remove level scaling?

dusky thicket
#

probably not without cbt

supple oak
#

level scaling isnt doing shit here

#

burn to ashes does 30 damage to a guarding enemy with raku

#

and i buffed it

true gorge
#

wait really?

supple oak
#

yeah by 5sqrt

true gorge
#

It almost 1 shots my party

supple oak
#

ah lol

true gorge
#

even when guarding

#

takes 2/3 of my HP

#

but i was at lv8

supple oak
#

how

#

i did it at level 4

dusky thicket
#

low en?

true gorge
#

No buffs tho

#

i didn't have shit

supple oak
#

ah

dusky thicket
#

also you should send another test build here for reference

supple oak
#

bet let me beat the mf

#

ive been recording

true gorge
#

u wanna stream it?

dusky thicket
#

also while we're here: do you want to provide the party skill changes as a separate mod or would you rather it be a config in this mod?

#

important question that should've been asked prior lol

true gorge
#

I think making it modular would be the best

supple oak
#

at this point im already considering it integral

#

setting didnt even cross my mind

dusky thicket
#

well

true gorge
#

From experience, if you cram a bunch of things into 1

#

you WILL get people complaining

dusky thicket
#

you need to have the option for it to be disabled

true gorge
#

even if you think it is perfect as it is

supple oak
dusky thicket
#

what if someone wants to use it for an existing save

true gorge
dusky thicket
#

you don't really want skill progression to change halfway through

supple oak
#

yes it does

#

why are you installing a rebalance mid playthrough though that's the million dollar question

dusky thicket
#

some people will do that lol

true gorge
#

yeah man,

#

the intro is kind of long

#

even if it is good

supple oak
dusky thicket
#

do you want it as a config option? I think more people will default to wanting it on anyways so it's easier to include it in the base mod.

supple oak
#

persona.tbl already has a bunch of merged changes

true gorge
#

imagine someone wanting to try out your mod

#

but finding out they have to restart

supple oak
#

making separate tbls is a pain but sure

true gorge
#

from the beginning

dusky thicket
#

does anyone still have the old PERSONA.TBL lol

true gorge
#

made a backup for it

supple oak
#

i sent the one that only has mutations

true gorge
#

or you mean the one with just mutations

dusky thicket
#

so there should be one with the old skill progression and one with the new skill progression

#

that's really it

supple oak
#

i'm not a very big fan of making balance mods modular though icl

#

everyone will complain in balance mods i'm already used to that

dusky thicket
#

I think the option should exist even if you want to default to new skillsets

#

it's just more work is all haha

#

I can code together a config without too much trouble, it's just having and maintaining those different files

true gorge
supple oak
#

a big reason i disagree is that it doubles the amount of testing

true gorge
#

yeah that toooo

supple oak
#

i dont want to test the entire game twice just to account for the other skillset

true gorge
#

playtesting is the biggest thing tbh

supple oak
#

3 playthroughs of p4 in a row is too much i am not loaf

(i am already accounting for P4R)

dusky thicket
#

I suppose that's true. so I guess rip anyone who's already playing the game lol

true gorge
#

Honestly, my mindset is

#

if someone is really frustrated about something

dusky thicket
#

I guess also it's not like many people are doing playthroughs rn as is, P4G is old

true gorge
#

they will start modding

dusky thicket
true gorge
#

I mean if it wasn't for that, I would not be here rn lol.

supple oak
#

which is -1 calendar

#

ig

#

still

dusky thicket
#

yeah I think the more I think about it the more it does make sense because like, the new skillsets were made with new balance in mind

true gorge
#

i think just for the bike skills

#

a lot of people will download the mod

#

and the skill balance changes

dusky thicket
#

people should probably use a save editor if they want the updated skill changes

true gorge
#

At least I would

true gorge
supple oak
#

i wouldn't mind making the bike do Past + Future at the same time, that's technically 6 free reroll opportunities per character

#

its a simple code mod i think

dusky thicket
#

good as a separate mod imo

true gorge
#

I think that's an excellent idea

dusky thicket
#

do you plan to make the party skill changes public info?

true gorge
#

yeah as a separate mod ofc

dusky thicket
#

you probably should if you weren't considering it

true gorge
#

nah, keep it private forever

#

no one will know

#

(joking)

supple oak
#

i have half a mind to make it public but lock the comment section

true gorge
#

brooo

dusky thicket
#

let people comment if they want haha

true gorge
#

just let people crap over it if they want

#

if its good, its good

#

if its not good, if is still good

dusky thicket
#

you should be making them public for the purpose of people converting their existing playthroughs at the very least

#

getting people saying dumb stuff is a bonus :p

true gorge
#

A lot of people are super sweaty so just take things with a grain of salt

#

you are doing free labor

#

and making a good effort to make things work well together

#

I think that's awesome so don't get put off by disagreements.

supple oak
#

oof damn i almost had it

#

SP issue though

#

i think its a lot better now

#

with consumables it's a cakewalk

#

definitely

#

i'm probably reverting burn to ashes to default dmg

#

oh nvm i didnt change it

#

KEKW did i do that

#

i did not

#

ok good

#

still kinda dog

#

25 luck and boosted on top

#

thats basically 100% infliction rate

worldly jasper
#

if she has 25 luck she doesn't need sharp student as well lol

#

since she's gapping you already

supple oak
#

not her

#

prince

#

and i already removed that

supple oak
supple oak
supple oak
dusky thicket
#

oh wow

#

what is Reload music doing in here 😭

supple oak
#

your mod

#

blame yourself

dusky thicket
#

which mod

supple oak
#

...rbt?

dusky thicket
#

oh I was thinking the velvet room theme lol

supple oak
#

pixelguin mod

dusky thicket
#

the first battle I saw was P3M music

#

kinda goes hard

supple oak
#

dont skip shadow yosuke/chie if you want to skim through

#

those fights were good too

dusky thicket
#

oh well I was going to watch shadow Yukiko first lol

supple oak
#

that one is good too

#

yukiko starts at 34:09 on the very hard one

dusky thicket
#

ty

supple oak
#

i show all fusions

#

as well

#

what i dont show is the bajillion times i died without goho-m

dusky thicket
#

shadow yukiko fight looks rly good with fog restoration

supple oak
#

yh

dusky thicket
#

so did you one shot this or did you do it in 2 days?

supple oak
#

i have multiple failed attempts lmfao

#

it took a few days

dusky thicket
#

ah lol

supple oak
#

i wasnt going at it 24/7 though i stopped a lot

#

i got completely fucked over

#

i had an attempt where i had sweep bonus from like floor 1 to floor 4

#

i got like 1 emperor this time and thats it lol

#

oh right the critical hp burn to ashes isnt random

#

teddie warns you

#

well he doesnt warn you but he's the telegraph

#

wiki says its rng

#

its not

dusky thicket
#

oh cool

#

i didnt know that

#

i assumed it was rng bc i thought there was no pattern to it

supple oak
#

it's when he says "you're almost there"

#

teddie mute mod users crying and shaking rn

dusky thicket
#

lots of diamond shields huh

supple oak
#

i got lucky i didnt even know they dropped

#

beyond the 3 scripted ones

#

i only used 2

#

so

#

all good

#

marakukaja isnt that insanely busted like reload anyway too

dusky thicket
#

why do you go to just normal atk for a bit after the prince leaves instead of using cleave or something?

supple oak
#

senri nulls fire and had no phys

dusky thicket
#

ah

supple oak
#

i was trying to bait burn to ashes

#

but i only found out teddie was the trigger on that attempt specifically

#

so i was blind

dusky thicket
#

rip yosuke

#

magic wall on chie kinda clutch

supple oak
#

i find it funnier that chie walling saved it even if she drained

#

the wall was intended to reflect makajam

#

not a fire attk

dusky thicket
#

ah lol

#

izanagi with the final miss at the end

#

fraud behavior?

supple oak
#

what you didnt see is the dozens of times the run died to yosuke and chie missing at the same time

dusky thicket
#

lmao

#

good fight though

#

i'll check the other ones later

supple oak
#

for sure

#

i think lowering hp was a good call

#

makes it way less grindy

dusky thicket
#

yeah

supple oak
#

i did fight some hands but i didn't actively look for any

#

making her crittable is also super satisfying tbh

dusky thicket
#

yeah for sure that looked pretty nice

supple oak
#

prince can be hit with any ailment now too which for a first boss should be pretty fine

#

especially if you manage to reflect the makajam

#

Yomotsu Shikome has Ghastly Wail at level 11 which imo is pretty rewarding if you do manage to go for it

dusky thicket
#

oh yeah i can imagine lol

#

lvl 11 definitely not easy to get to tho i'd imagine? (with very hard xp)

supple oak
#

ghastly wail working on bosses is the dream, but obviously it only works on stuff like this

#

i was level 10 so 11 is minimal effort

#

I saw plenty of hands I didn't fight because i was out of consumable damage items

#

i could've been way more leveled

dusky thicket
#

i saw you had a normal difficulty one too, is that with the lowered hp?

supple oak
#

yup exactly the same but i lowered the diff

#

just to see if it was fine

#

i think it was

#

a lot more forgiving but the damage you deal isn't insanely higher tbh

true gorge
#

Hey, one extra consideration I thought about. I think this game sets persona skills the moment you start a new save.

#

So if someone installs this mid-through, some innate skills might not be the ones in the mod.

#

I'm thinking naoto's tempest slash and teddie's auto-rakukaja

supple oak
#

valid

worldly jasper
#

tbf you can just relearn/adjust skills with bike ride

#

or mod meu

true gorge
#

I must say, tarunda on Yukiko is probably one of the best changes ever.

#

I cannot understate how useful it is having it on very hard.

#

I've been playing on and off and I think Yosuke is kind of underrated.

#

Tentarafoo is probably the best debuff hands down since it gimps the enemies' turn so there is not really a need to have anything else. Silence just forces enemies to do their normal attack, which can kind of mess you up because it deals more damage than skills for some reason.

#

And poison is just not worth it for DoT when it pretty much negates the infliction other more useful ailments.

#

I would suggest to move Masukukaja back a bit and probably make it the first party-wide buff you get.

#

Having increase dodge chance in certain battles where enemies target your weakness is super useful.

harsh canyon
true gorge
#

They still 1 shot you regardless, at least on very hard.

#

Like seriously 15 levels under enemies...

#

Oh damn it's 50%

#

I thought it was 30% for some reason. Okay nvm.

#

Okay, one more thing I noticed while playing.

#

For some reason, some multi-target skills deal far less damage than what they are suppossed to when enemies use it.

#

I don't know why this is, but if 2 skills have similar attack power, the multi hit skill will deal puny damage compared to if it was just 1 single hit.

dusky thicket
dusky thicket
dusky thicket
#

you guys should definitely document your findings in any case so it is easier to find

true gorge
#

Yeah, I'll test it later on today. I thought silence would just make the enemies try to attack with a skill and gimp their turm; however, they have a chance (i think) to do their normal attack. Sometimes, they will try to use a buff/debuff, so you can survive a bit longer if you don't apply makajam on them; however, they seem to go for the normal attack sometimes and (when being very underleveled) this results in getting 1 shotted. Since it is not 100% safe, unlike using tentarafoo, I just opt for attacking instead of applying silence.

#

With regards to skills vs normal attacks, for example, the pisce in yukiko's floor 1 will deal more damage with the normal attack vs using cleave when I'm higher level.

true gorge
dusky thicket
#

?

#

at lvl 49?

#

you're almost at the endgame?

true gorge
#

No, at vanilla level. Sorry, I was looking at the vanilla sheet again.

#

Well, I'm level 45 at the end of heaven.

dusky thicket
#

it is definitely not the first party wide buff you get though, that is true

#

the first one you get is mataru at lvl 42 on teddie

true gorge
#

I think it will be very useful to get it for the naoto fight

#

Naoto is level 55 I think. So Lv 49 is fine

dusky thicket
#

is this usually how very hard is with xp?

true gorge
#

works out pretty well

dusky thicket
#

bc yeah for normal xp you're fine lol

true gorge
#

Well I had to fight naoto at Lv 42

#

And just equipped the dodge accessories

#

If she got a 1 more, I had to reapply tarunda and rakunda

dusky thicket
#

I think there's a good argument that marakukaja on teddie should be earlier too, it is kinda late. but kanji gets it at lvl 51 so maybe it's fine

true gorge
#

Wait

#

I got a better idea

#

Make kanji learn it before teddie

dusky thicket
#

that is literally already how it is

true gorge
#

Oh then just leave it as it is xd

dusky thicket
#

right now it's 51 (kanji) 58 (teddie)

true gorge
#

51 is kind of late

#

lower it further

dusky thicket
#

I think it could afford to go down a bit for teddie anyways

true gorge
#

I'm telling you. On very hard, the only way I managed to survive mitsuo onwards

#

was because I got a magician card and got marakukaja on izanagi

dusky thicket
#

I'm willing to listen to suggestions that the all target buffs/debuffs should be available earlier. currently they average lvl 50 with teddie's early matarukaja being an exception (same with his late marakukaja)

true gorge
#

Kanji has a pretty low SP pool

dusky thicket
#

you could also bike ride for matarunda B2 on yukiko

true gorge
#

so he has a disadvantage

#

The bike rides are for the naoto dungeon

#

So you can get the ma-kajas/kundas by then

#

Which is lv 45-55

dusky thicket
#

the main issue really with lowering the ma-kajas and kundas is skill compression

true gorge
#

By normal standards

#

On very hard, however it's more like Lv 32-42

dusky thicket
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there is a gap for a lot of characters around lvl 50 that is filled by the buffs existing there. move the buffs down and you need something to fill that gap

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especially bc skills already exist around lvl 45 or so for all those characters

true gorge
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I made my own skill tree

dusky thicket
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for example: pulling up teddie's again

image.png
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you should not have diarahan earlier than 49 or so

true gorge
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Teddie is perfect

dusky thicket
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ice break should not be later than 44

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mataru could be argued to be moved later but i think having it available early helps him a lot as a character

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so then it's just kinda weird. kanji has a similar issue too

supple oak
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i'm on sauna floor 7 rn

true gorge
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This is what I did for my kanji

dusky thicket
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you can see with this skill balancing here why that doesn't really work here

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yes, you could throw maraku in at lvl 46 or something then then you have a 6 lvl gap between elec break and vile assault

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broadly speaking i think it's good to have balanced level ups rather than periods of not getting many skills (stock p4 suffers with this)

true gorge
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Oh you can probably throw something in between

dusky thicket
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shouldn't get in the way of balance ofc, but

true gorge
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like fast heal or a wacky thing

dusky thicket
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then you're throwing in skills for the sake of it