the rakunda right?
#Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks
harsh canyon
yosuke with multitarget phys? cursed
true gorge
at least it is in vanilla
dusky thicket
myriad is essentially just vorpal blade but 1-3 hits in this mod
slightly less dmg but not by much
harsh canyon
give him poison arrow same power anyways
true gorge
myriad is essentially just vorpal blade but 1-3 hits in this mod
why dont you guys change it to how it is in p3r
x2-x4
i know there is another skill that is the exact same thing
dusky thicket
give him poison arrow same power anyways
single target + power is different in this mod
ok. here's the question. debilitate in S10 or bike?
true gorge
Team bike!
dusky thicket
hmmm
true gorge
if it is slink, then it kind of replaces marakunda and matarunda
so if you really want to condense all of those you gotta go bike
dusky thicket
so the problem with myriad arrows
is that it is comparable to vorpal blade (lvl 73)
but it's in B4 stock
true gorge
But vorpal blade has better crit rate no?
whereas the other one is less consistent and misses more often...?
dusky thicket
they were rebalanced so
no crit data in here for those skills but rn, myriad arrows is more accurate
harsh canyon
aeon rain is technically more powerful than myriad arrows isnt it
dusky thicket
i think debilitate would be better in link in terms of progression but i also prefer bike bc not until january
i rly dont see the resemblance between ken and naoto here but yknowwww
true gorge
She already gets mind charge as her busted skill in slink
gotta ration em out you know
dusky thicket
naoto needs mind charge early too...
dusky thicket
same as dyne
true gorge
oh
harsh canyon
i rly dont see the resemblance between ken and naoto here but yknowwww
i was making a joke about myriad arrows smh
dusky thicket
oh i wasnt referring to your comment 😭
megidola is pretty decent for when naoto gets it i think
but its not relevant for long
true gorge
she does not need damage
she IS the damage
you guys also removed the resistances from bosses no?
doesn't that kind of help her out too
in addition to almighty getting buffed
true gorge
different from the hidden resistsances?
harsh canyon
for bosses you mean?
dusky thicket
im only aware of the hidden phys resist for major bosses but maybe meovv found and disabled the other ones
harsh canyon
cant remove all of them from enemies tho
true gorge
gets stuck with sonic punch for half of the game
gets gitantic fist
deals magic and phys with single target heal
harsh canyon
power slash?
true gorge
Oh nevermind then haha
I think it's just kind of funny that every new move makes the characters in p4 resemble those in p3r
harsh canyon
only so many things you can do
dusky thicket
i definitely would not pull from p3r lol that game is balanced like shit
true gorge
I liked it, but I played it with arke rebalance.
harsh canyon
similar archetypes are bound to pop up here and there
true gorge
I did have the best experience ever.
dusky thicket
that's why you had a better experience
it's bad in base game
i followed meovv's master quest for a while
but he's changing that one bc the difficulty mod that dominated was memento mori
true gorge
Well, besides the theurgy charge and crits, I think the game works pretty well together.
Never really touched other mods. I think it just needed some fine-tuning, but I still think I enjoyed the combat way more than p5 and p4.
That and the party speccing, but we do have that in here in the form of bike skills.
Brawler, as a last resort, remember that enduring soul is a thing. And it sacks with angelic grace.
dusky thicket
i absolutely do not want to do any endure skills
stacking another endure is a little silly
I went with angelic grace tentatively
I think this is it
harsh canyon
give noot the extra endure for funsies 
true gorge
Yukiko's bike skills are a bit underwhelming. I feel.
harsh canyon
she anyways dies in like 1 hit lmao
dusky thicket
i don't know if rise needs any changes but tbh she's just so busted after a certain point anyways and it's all rng so it's hard to fix
dusky thicket
Yukiko's bike skills are a bit underwhelming. I feel.
I would probably change spirit drain and that's it
actually wait
I need to change that one
it's repeated lol
true gorge
Move it back to bike 2 if anything.
dusky thicket
it's in S6 and B4 rn
true gorge
Yeah that too
dusky thicket
I think I will leave it in S6
so that means something new for B4
what the heck else could she get
true gorge
spell master
dusky thicket
rage boost to fit with valiant dance is the only thing i can think of but tbh both of those are kinda mid anyways
true gorge
why not move the matarunda into bike skills
dusky thicket
also trying to stay away from ailment curing
true gorge
and just leave her with normal tarunda
dusky thicket
possible
true gorge
or better yet
make amrita part of the social link
since right now she is just teddie
dusky thicket
amrita is really strong for S6
true gorge
too similar i think
dusky thicket
fair point
also makes it easier
with yukiko's buffs, I could move Matarunda back to B2 and make B4 either unchanged or makara break since Yosuke lost it
i dont value tetra or makara break highly but i think they should stick around somewhere in kits
true gorge
i agree
dusky thicket
kinda makes sense that yukiko, the magic mage, would get rid of makarakarn since she only uses magic
true gorge
Sounds good though
dusky thicket
arguably 4th
true gorge
Yeah ik i was joking xd
dusky thicket
oh lol
true gorge
Hey I do have a suggestion
dusky thicket
did not realize
true gorge
sorry its kinda hard to tell through text
true gorge
Hey I do have a suggestion
Swap valiant dance in slink and spirit drain
so that valiant dance is in the social link
and spirit drain is bike 1 skill
dusky thicket
final draft
true gorge
I do think having spirit drain early on is just nice
dusky thicket
@supple oak thoughts when you get the chance? (scroll down)
true gorge
Okay one more thing if i may
I think chie getting bufudyne as her last skill for bike rides is still underwhelming
But actually, i think it's fine.
Wait
Teddie gets amrita twice
once in his SL and another one in his social link
dusky thicket
I'm intending to replace S6 (October) so nothing too crazy
firm stance is more of a late game skill
true gorge
sorry, its late and im just saying stuff
dusky thicket
its fine lol
true gorge
that was also a joke lol
true gorge
i promise i have more than 3 brain cells
dusky thicket
(it'd suck)
true gorge
4 to be precise
Did he have amrita in his base kit before?
or was it always in his slink
dusky thicket
yeah it was base kit
true gorge
Spirit drain instead of life drain?
dusky thicket
he just doesnt have life drain period rn
dusky thicket
life drain on october 7 is highly underwhelming but having it as a bike skill is also highly underwhelming
true gorge
(joking lol)
what about giving him
mighty swing
nah it would just get outclassed
Dekunda maybe?
Too many buffs, and kanji already has it ig
dusky thicket
could remove it from kanji
true gorge
Yeah, that works ig
dusky thicket
dekunda s6 is better than b1 anyways
dusky thicket
dekunda isnt rly a buff
true gorge
support skill, same thing in my book
dusky thicket
also what rly happened here is that dekunda and marakunda switched places
so his new buffs are just masukunda and nothing else
true gorge
what would end-game teddie look like
I mean, you for sure want to keep ice boost/amp
unless yo just go full support
I would just build him like aigis
dusky thicket
i'd probably kit
- mabufudyne
- ice boost
- ice amp
- mediarahan
- matarukaja
- marakunda
- resist phys
- evade elec
true gorge
Have mataru, maraku, then all the amps and ice stuff
No single target bufudyne? rip
Well ig it is less valuable here since you cant combo
dusky thicket
alternatively, cut ice boost for something else and just use frost puppet for ice boost
true gorge
but i always keep both -dynes
that leaves out marakukaja dekunda and masukunda
so kanji and teddie both get dekunda
naoto stays with blight like yosuke
teddie and yoskue getting some move overlaps
chie's bike skills are a bit lacking compared to the rest
teddie has too much support
naoto has too much support
dusky thicket
ok this is actually it fr fr. final draft send feedback thanks
true gorge
That's all I have, but a lot of it is personal preference.
dusky thicket
if you run teddie with amagi, then you could kit teddie as mabufudyne, ice amp, matarukaja, marakukaja, marakunda, evade elec, 2 more skills, frost puppet. let him take on a full support role
hoping this is at the point where it can be finalized with maybe a few more changes :p (if there's any feedback please also leave suggested changes with it bc I'm genuinely so out of specific ideas)
true gorge
Honestly just go get some rest, sit on it for a while, and come back.
In a couple of days, we'll see if the changes stick or not.
That was pretty productive I'd say.
(We definitely need to do something with ali dance/angelic grace though lol)
dusky thicket
agreed. I am not a big fan of that I just didn't have any more ideas. hopefully meovv can chime in.
some shower thoughts:
- thinking of moving some stuff around in Kanji's kit. dizzy boost or auto-raku could be a level skill, allowing Regen 2 to be added to his SL alongside Regen 3
- maybe kanji should get elec boost back at lvl 27 and lose dekunda
- virus wave is a new skill and should be marked as such
- spell master could actually make sense for Naoto bc shield of justice is expensive
but I won't change anything until I get some feedback
supple oak
why dont you guys change it to how it is in p3r
crazy busted
many small hits is infinitely stronger than one very big one due to how damage is calculated
supple oak
agreed. I am not a big fan of that I just didn't have any more ideas. hopefully ...
I'll chime in later i need some time
worldly jasper
final draft
tetraja at bike 4 😭 wtf cuh
tetraja kinda needs to be early or just not exist at all cus that's a dead skill on bike rides
dusky thicket
that's how I was treating it ngl 😭
like what do you even give Naoto when it comes to January bike ride skills
worldly jasper
i think invigorates def aren't good enough for bike either
i unironically think bufudhain/jiodhain was better fit there than those are
also isn't vorpal blade better than myriad arrows average now?
dusky thicket
only by a little bit
dusky thicket
i unironically think bufudhain/jiodhain was better fit there than those are
so I think the bike skills probably need another pass then. I'm just struggling to think of what Naoto could get that would be useful for bike skills
there's a balance between "these skills are useful" and "these skills should not be locked behind bike especially since 4/5 of them are post December"
ziodyne being locked behind B2, which you only get in January, is fucking awful lol - everyone has dynes + boost + amp at that point 😭
I've been avoiding severes out of fear that it would be overtuned but I'm starting to wonder if it really would be that bad
worldly jasper
its almost as if having all 4 elements isn't actually very useful 😈
i mean like with naoto i don't rly think severes fit
it WOULD require a lot of effort to make them work but it'd also technically make her a top tier dps on top of having debilitate and marakunda lol
if it were base game severes it'd be more justifiable
too bad there isn't tier 3 light/dark 
dusky thicket
yeah she still gets boost for one of those bc of the weapons
she can choose whatever she wants really
I think I'd rather just have her be a little mid but I'd want the bike skills to not be immediate throwaways either...
dusky thicket
I think myriad arrows was outclassed before right
worldly jasper
ali dance is funny but honestly if you're wasting 5 days on naoto you kinda deserve it
no
it dogwalked og vorpal blade lol
dusky thicket
ali dance is funny but honestly if you're wasting 5 days on naoto you kinda dese...
especially bc you get it in February lol
it's like. end game
worldly jasper
heat riser feels kinda out of place on naoto now given like she's debuff oriented now
dusky thicket
and she already has a strict bike schedule
worldly jasper
i'd maybe say like
replace hiito with invig 3 in her SL
Bike 1 Tetraja
Bike 2 Debilitate
Bike 3 ???
Bike 4 Spell Master
Bike 5 Ali Dance
morning star bike 5 (delusional)
dusky thicket
I will be honest with you I did think about that
those don't really feel appropriate as anything other than MC skills though...
worldly jasper
yea its too memey sadly
oh wait
idea
Bike 1 Tetraja
Bike 2 Debilitate
Bike 3 Spell Master
Bike 4 Brave Blade
Bike 5 Ali Dance
dusky thicket
what's the logic behind brave blade?
worldly jasper
she has it in her boss fight and she's already hybrid between phys/magic anyways
and she already has a strong aoe phys
so may as well give her a single target one
true gorge
Yo, hope you guys are doing well.
+1 for brave blade
if only there was something a bit weaker, like heaven's blade (thats exclusive so out of the question ig), that would be ideal
I don't think multiple party members should have the same skills, but severe phys already has Primal Force on Kanji, God's Hand on Chie, and Brave Blade on Yosuke.
true gorge
crazy busted
Yeah. But, in vanilla its "supposedly" a skill in between the tiers of vorpal blade and deathbound. You can just adjust its power so that its is a bridge between the two. I'm just bringing up the multi hit because there is another "arrow rain-type" skill that is the same thing as myriad arrows (same hit variability). So having some visual indication that a skill is stronger than another could help tell the difference between the two skills, much like in reload arrow rain is x1-x4 and myriad arrows is x2-x5 or something similar. You can say one deals light dmg x1-x3 and the other deals miniscule x2-x4 aka one deals More damage and is Less consistent, and the other one deals Less damage, but it is More consistent and accurate. Or something along those lines. Though I have not looked at how you guys balanced skills as of yet, but this is just a thought I'm putting out there.
I just suggested replacing blight with something else on naoto since she and yosuke learn this skill at a very similar level. I think there should be more distinction between the party members and should not have too many overlapping skills unless it is super necessary so that they don't end up feeling the same.
Because I really would not be able to tell the difference between these two in game.
true gorge
yea its too memey sadly
This looks pretty solid!
dusky thicket
perhaps replace naoto's blight with akasha arts because it's distinct from yosuke's (no ailments) + it's a bit weaker than vorpal?
akasha arts does not feel like a naoto skill tho ngl lol
true gorge
In this game, it seems like it's a slash-type move
that could work too
But akasha arts is very high-tier
dusky thicket
chie getting arrow rain at 63 is funny bc it's ass
maybe that one needs to be moved
true gorge
why not give chie akasha arts
true gorge
oh no nvm, akasha arts is stronger suppossedly
I'm going by the game's tier system or whatever
dusky thicket
technically they're the same tier in this mod
true gorge
arrow rain does fit che
idk how it is balanced here, but it's kind of like rampage
or am i thinking of aeon rain
dusky thicket
this feels goofy but i think it make smore sense to get arrow rain earlier
true gorge
too many multi target moves
wouldn't blade of fury do the trick
better than being stuck with rampage for like forever
dusky thicket
it is too soon after hmm
dusky thicket
what was vanilla?
true gorge
Honestly vanilla looks good to me lol
it is single to multi to single to multi
maybe just replace heat wave with blade of fury and call it a day lol
dusky thicket
really the issue is there's not really a good skill that can fit in between rainy death and god hand
but maybe chie can just have weaker AOE phys for a bit
true gorge
That can work with naoto
specializing in multi-target
kind of like aigis
gives her smth to do i guess
and chie has inconsistent moves
and high crit single hits
dusky thicket
naoto doesnt specifically specialize in multi target so im not going to rly consider that
true gorge
Deathbound and vorpal blade
dusky thicket
rainy death got a big buff in this mod sheesh
true gorge
not necessarily the best moves, but have consistent damage
true gorge
She is kind of like ryuji
where he goes from megaton raid to god's hand
but god's hand is significantly stronger than anything else.
did you guys balance the severe moves? or nerf them in any way
dusky thicket
true gorge
that can kind of help close the gap
This is how i did mine
damn vorpal blade is crazy strong
dusky thicket
now that i look at this i honestly dont feel too bad about introducing arrow rain after blade of fury
true gorge
in your mod
dusky thicket
it's a modest upgrade, that's good enough
true gorge
You guys' balance looks a lot like the progression in reload
dusky thicket
given the buffs to naoto's phys this might just be good enough idk
true gorge
in terms of sqrt power for skills
I've noticed that ever since 4, they nerfed multi-target phys into oblivion
and magic too
it used to be so much better
coming from someone who played p5 first
true gorge
would you look at that
I'm surprised how close we were to each other lol
Must mean we are going in the right direction somehow if we are getting convergent thinking.
either that or we are severely off
true gorge
What was the goal with yosuke in this mod?
dusky thicket
make him less mid
true gorge
I've always thought he was alright. The changes I like here are the addition to confuse boost to his learnset. But the rest seems odd idk.
dusky thicket
yosuke's moveset is lowkey kinda ass but he's saved by brave blade at the end
true gorge
Oh and the bike ride skills, those are quite nice.
dusky thicket
power slash is his only single target phys skill until brave blade
lvl 34 to lvl 69
dusky thicket
he's supposed to be an all rounder yet his phys is completely unviable for a large part of the game
his healing is useless
doesnt have to be the best just needs to not be useless
and honestly not having AOE phys really limited him too. by focusing on ailment phys it uses skills that aren't really acknowledged much in base game, gives him extra options, and leans into the ailment role he has
true gorge
The issue is that ailments suck in this game
they don't lead to anything
Mitsuru in reload is really good because ailment increase crit rate
so it's actually fun to use her
dusky thicket
one of the reasons why the ailment phys skills suck is just that they do like no damage
dusky thicket
also mitsuru is ass in reload lol
true gorge
unless it's the enemy
dusky thicket
bottom 2 easily
true gorge
well bottom 2 where everyone is good is still good
dusky thicket
personally i rate her bottom 3 but that's bc i didn't optimize akihiko
mitsuru, aki, and yukari are all ass in reload actually it's just that reload is so easy it doesnt matter
but you definitely do notice their underperformance even then
true gorge
I have to remember i played with arke
dusky thicket
i brought yukari to the nyx fight and she threw so hard
true gorge
in that game (with arke), phys and crits are nerfed
the power gap between magic and phys is closer and you really get to appreciate ailments
and hard-hitting magic skills
dusky thicket
yeah i would not consider a balance mod as a way to seriously look at the balance of a game considering it changes the balance
true gorge
yes i know, but i think there is some merit into taking what the mod did right
dusky thicket
i have not played with that mod but if i had to guess, either phys is needlessly underpowered or it still mogs magic bc of crits. it's a tough balance to strike
i would be interested in seeing like shio play with the mod and see what they have to say
but i dont think they're interested in playing reload again lol
true gorge
Well phys was amazing still, you just had to build your characters to be phys characters
and junpei was still goated regardless of the nerfs
But that aside, yosuke has a lot going for him
though im not sure if i would still use him
dusky thicket
he really doesnt
true gorge
Let me rephrase
dusky thicket
i dont think he's strictly a terrible character but i do think he's one of the worst designed characters
true gorge
he gets more moves now in the mod
I just don't think i would see myself using him
more than i did before, or using the new moves he has
btw im just your average casual player
so if i saw the mod and his new moveset i would just think he is alright, but not any better than he was before
The only thing i would like to see changed in him is to remove the akihiko syndrome
and just add something to close the gap between brave blade and power slash
and his expanded moveset with the bike skills
dusky thicket
i think from a casual perspective, him getting AOE phys is pretty awesome
bc from a casual perspective: to be honest, i would completely ignore all but maybe the first bike skill
true gorge
you know what
i take it back
you are right
ailment aoe+ailment boost is pretty fun
and it fits him like a glove
dusky thicket
the one problem is that you have to spec into B3 to get ailment boost lol
true gorge
the pendulum swings quickly sometimes
dusky thicket
but hopefully mind slice + tentarafoo + confuse boost early on helps
dusky thicket
truthfully i dont value ailments highly in persona games anyways but the AOE part of it is nice and if it leads to inflicting ailments as a side effect, great
true gorge
truthfully i dont value ailments highly in persona games anyways but the AOE par...
When you don't 1 shot everything in turn 1
it really helps if you can gimp an enemy's turn
dusky thicket
so i don't value trafuri
true gorge
like, extremely
true gorge
so same with tetra and makara break
dusky thicket
and i do think it is good to have an option to escape from any battle instantly like that, as an emergency option
dusky thicket
tetra and makara break are a little more useless in my imo
dusky thicket
think it should be expensive, it's intended as an, oh fuck i messed up let's get out of here
true gorge
let me tell you
i've been playing on very hard
with the shitty XP
and i was severely underleveled
dusky thicket
realistically trafuri is only really worth it in the first or maybe second dungeon and totally falls off lol
true gorge
I still had a lot of vanish balls/got preentive attack on the enemy
dusky thicket
even then i dont think it's a skill you should be using if you are good
true gorge
so i never felt like I had to use trafuri, ever
especially not with that obscene sp cost
dusky thicket
but i think it kinda fits him to have that option regardless as an early party member
you replace it quickly anyways yk
true gorge
and if I had to do the oh shit type of scenario
i would just load a save
because using 24sp to get bailed out is just not worth it
true gorge
you replace it quickly anyways yk
Well, i think just reducing sp cost can help keep it viable for longer
even if you could spam it, i mean it's something yosuke has going for him
dusky thicket
i would be willing to move auto-suku into his lvl progression and move confuse boost into S8 though
true gorge
it's like what recarm is to the revival items
and I think recarm sucks, but it's at least kind of cheap to cast and you get to save an item
I'm thinking the same could apply here where you can use it to save yourself a vanish ball+increase yosuke's value early on
I definitely think this skill is extremely useful in yukiko's castle/kanji's
it's just that you are so tight on SP early on that it's never worth using (If i mess up, i would just reload a save and save often)
dusky thicket
so I haven't touched any skills strictly speaking, that's all been meovv doing that. definitely ask him if you still think its cost should be reduced
i can see what you mean. i am mainly against removing it entirely
dusky thicket
so what I'm thinking right now is, leave auto-suku and confuse boost, or switch them
probably no changes to their level
true gorge
I like the idea of party members
getting the same type of skills
via different methods
chie already has auto-tarukaja on her moveset
so i think yosuke should get it through his slink
dusky thicket
teddie got it via SL
now, kanji gets it instead but also via SL
so it could go either way i do not think it matters
im also not sure if you'd get S8 or lvl 32 yosuke earlier
i think it'd be around the same time
but if you hard focus yosuke link you could get it earlier if it was S8
true gorge
im doing a fresh playthrough of p4g so i would have to keep going to se what I need
and what yosuke can get to help him for the current point in the game
hmm
I think swapping auto sukukaja and confuse boost would be kind of good?
dusky thicket
i did slightly nerf auto-suku as is but it wasn't bc auto-suku was op
it was to buff diarama
it does nerf auto-suku but tbh, no one got auto buffs early beforehand
dusky thicket
i do think diarama s6 is worth it
although maybe it's a little overtuned if you get it too early
when would people typically get yosuke s6...
true gorge
I think it's fine
dusky thicket
i would think you should have diarama by rise's dungeon
true gorge
either way, yukiko should be the multi heal specialist
early on
and yosuke should have the single target healing (at least earlier)
to give him a bit more utility, i guess
dusky thicket
yeah maybe on second thought I'll revert the auto-suku and diarama switch
I think you can reasonably have yosuke s8 by rise's dungeon
you'd have to go out of your way to get s8 around kanji's
still not a fan of naoto S10 or her going from nothing to invig 3 but I am genuinely so out of ideas lol
true gorge
I definitely like that yousuke can heal you to full hp
and yukiko keeps everyone's health maintained
true gorge
still not a fan of naoto S10 or her going from nothing to invig 3 but I am genui...
Give her the kanji treatment
have invigorate 1 as default on her kit
and upgrade it to invig 3 at the end
dusky thicket
i wanted to do that but what goes on her kit
matarunda is the obvious choice but I like that skill as an innate skill
makes it clear right away, yeah she can play a debuff role
true gorge
personally, i think both marakunda and matarunda feel out of place for her
and should be "wacky skills" to increase her options like megido on yosuke
dusky thicket
i don't agree
she already has options
she has single target + AOE target phys, single elemental, AOE almighty, single and eventually AOE insta kill
true gorge
kind of tramples on the role of yukiko as the dmg debuffer
dusky thicket
she already has so many options
Yukiko is a damage dealer and healer first
that's her role in boss fights
Naoto's role in boss fights is to be useless
giving her stronger skills helps (and that's what meovv did), but giving her a credible and unique support role is the best way she could be made relevant
true gorge
I would have to replay the game and see how i feel about her
when i played p4g for the first time, i thought she was badass
she never ran out of sp thanks to invig 3, and could hit anything with almighty
plus getting hama and mudo for the enemies weak to those
she just struggled on bosses where mind charge+megidolaon was expensive and did not have the best dmg
that was my impression of her
I mean, it's just hard to do these last generalist/characters with no weaknesses and a lot of support skills
Metis was amazing and had 3 support skills (A lot of survivability and buffed the party's damage)
Akechi had debilitate (Just debilitate did a lot for him, even if he lacked in dmg due to megidolaon being so weak)
Zenkichi had a lot of support and firm stance (Different genre, but he hit like a truck, never died, and had a lot of support)
I think just getting debilitate/rakunda and buffing almighty (and vorpal blade) is all she needs to be way better than vanilla.
I mean, right now vorpal blade is just barely weaker than brave blade (about 7%)
I think that's super strong
Whereas before it used to be 70% weaker than brave blade
That's a huge difference that keeps naoto more viable late-game.
The issue is that she now has too many competing skills.
But that's just how i see it lol so thake it with a grain of salt.
true gorge
she already has so many options
That's the issue, she has too much going for her.
dusky thicket
that's not the issue. Naoto is already ok for normal battles with the insta kills. the buffs to her skills just give her more options especially early on before she gets the fuck you insta kills. the issue was always with her viability in boss fights. she just doesn't have the tools to do well there. a few debuffs go a long way there
suddenly, her lackluster damage is alright bc she can debuff
in terms of damage, naoto already has to compromise as is. i much prefer this as her kit is already giving her a bunch of tools and it's up to you to decide how you want to spec her out
buffing her skills doesn't really address her issues unless you overdo it which kinda goes against her design
true gorge
when you put it that way, it does not sound so bad
But seeing as to how yukiko has to go on bike rides to get matarunda and naoto just getting it for free
kind of devalues it a little
dusky thicket
I think that's ok
similarly, Kanji gets mediarama and Chie gets Matarukaja
it's alternative options there
true gorge
actually, should chie even get matarukaja for her bike rides?
dusky thicket
she still gets tarunda early
true gorge
dragon hustle, although expensive, kind of makes matarukaja obsolete
dusky thicket
speccing into Chie bike allows you to have her as an AOE attack buffer as early as September
Chie is already mainly focused on phys and especially crits. it makes sense to go out of your way to get enhanced support for her instead of just using teddie
true gorge
that's if you commit to it early, but if you do her bike stuff later on, it kind of makes it useless after you get dragon hustle
like, at least the other bike skills bring something you cant really get anywhere else, or you get straight upgrades form what you already had
dusky thicket
she has 7 bike ride opportunities before January
she is also getting a direct upgrade from something she already had
she has tarukaja innate
true gorge
What i meant is that dragon hustle already has the same utility and it is the "final form" of matarukaja
dusky thicket
that's like going from skewer to god's hand
gotta have something in between as an option
dragon hustle obsoletes matarukaja but you get it very late
true gorge
well yeah, but if i did her bike rides and at the end i got matarukaja, just to be replaced with something better, it's kind of off, but idon't think that's a big deal
dusky thicket
chie is not meant as a support character. so if you want her as support you'd better go a bit out of your way for it
true gorge
a very easy way to fix it would be to just have it as a part of her kit, and use the bike ride for something better
true gorge
chie is not meant as a support character. so if you want her as support you'd be...
yeah fair
i was thinking of moving masukunda to her
Masukunda is good for golden hands
dusky thicket
feels very random
true gorge
if you do her bike rides early
then you can land more phys hits easily
takes some of the burden off of teddie
and it never becomes obsolete
by the time you have her end game stuff, you have enough time to know what to replace with what
Plus, she is green
Yukari is also green
and morgana is also green
and masukunda is green too
i'm joking ofc, but idk i think it works and gives her extra utility
dusky thicket
some of this skill scaling is definitely a little weird when i look at it
might suggest a second pass on it with the phys skills at least
new changes. mainly shuffled yosuke's skills around to make his AOE phys less useful than chie's on average
worldly jasper
Plus, she is green
we bringing out that p3r logic 😭
poor tetra break staying a dead skill
true gorge
I think the current draft is pretty good as it is, though I have my own take on a couple of things. I can't really suggest anything else other than having someone else look at it.
I have tried making one on my own with what I would change from vanilla, and tried to keep it as minimalistic as I could. Maybe it brings in a new insight or something, but a lot of it is just personal preference.
dusky thicket
honestly as shio alluded to, i was trying to keep things largely faithful
if you remove that constraint you could probably do more (also depends on your skill balancing)
i don't want to comment too much bc I have the p4g cbt spreadsheet in front of me for making a lot of these decisions (although i wish i could change a few attack values), but idk if you're using stock or your own
supple oak
i don't want to comment too much bc I have the p4g cbt spreadsheet in front of m...
speak up ig
dusky thicket
i forgor
i was thinking about them more this morning 😭
the one thing i can think of off the top of my head is that it would be nice for arrow rain to get a little more damage to be in line with a skill chie gets at 55
iirc it was a very small upgrade over blade of fury
if it's possible to get any other AOE ailment phys skills around the level of blight for yosuke that would be cool too
harsh canyon
crazier chain
golden raft
kureiiji
true gorge
i don't want to comment too much bc I have the p4g cbt spreadsheet in front of m...
I'm using my own, I did buff a couple of skills to make them more of a middle ground between power levels, since this game has a bunch of skills grouped together that do the same thing.
But it's mostly vanilla. I mean I think party member balance is pretty important so why not differenciate a couple of skills a bit more for the sake of making your party members not hit like a wet noodle?
As long as it is not too much ig. You are going to have to compromise somewhere. Whatever you do, I think it will be an overall improvement from the vanilla game, even if it is not 100% perfect due to what you have to work with.
harsh canyon
atom smasherer
true gorge
Plus, I think a lot of this theoretical talk will change after someone playtests it. That's the only real way to see what to adjust.
true gorge
atom smasherer
I am atomic
supple oak
@cunning pelican While I'm at it, I've always preferred your approach to detailing descriptions rather than a complete numerical info dump.
I don't think there are many skills that fall outside the radius you defined ( 0-34 [Miniscule]; 35-79 [Light]; 80-124 [Medium]; 125-189 [Heavy]; 190-699 [Severe]; 700+ [Colossal]) but some do.
Is there any way a patch can be made with Detailed Descriptions as a dependency, or would it be fine to just include an altered version of it in the mod?
supple oak
effectively all i'd like is to have Detailed Descriptions act as a base for all descriptions in the game/mod, with the few things we changed that no longer fit being corrected
hexed kettleBOT
iirc, the tbls with embedded text can now use bmd/bf emulator but I'm not sure if it's applicable for all tbls
supple oak
in the event that rudiger is fine with it, decompiling the BMD and making our edits from it rather than from the vanilla game is fine (i have not edited any descriptions yet)
but in the event that he'd rather not, then yeah, patching with base mod as dependency
dusky thicket
while we're at it have you had a look at the current skill sets/any thoughts?
dusky thicket
it's what's in the sheet rn
dusky thicket
new changes. mainly shuffled yosuke's skills around to make his AOE phys less us...
but, screenshot for your convenience
supple oak
ok walk me through this rq
black and red seems to mean the same but i get blue
well i can ignore the colors its ordered
oh
black is a replacement
red is cut
blue is added
ok
gotta pull up the fusion calc for this
dusky thicket
I sure hope not. I hope they have more skills man 😭😭
supple oak
we got
dusky thicket
some of these skills feel stupid but it's like what the hell else to give
dusky thicket
phys boost and amp 😭😭
supple oak
he unironically would be the ideal person to get it
boosts him up a bit at the cost of a skill slot
dusky thicket
(who)
dusky thicket
oh yeah
that'd be cool
I'm gonna go to bed now but if you see any changes that should be made, lmk
supple oak
bet
supple oak
but, screenshot for your convenience
Yosuke
-
I like Confuse Boost. Yosuke has access to Silence as well, but he does seem to be more focused into Panic since Tentafaroo is an AoE skill.
-
I can't comment much on the simple phys choices. P4 doesn't really have a Single Target/Multi Target specialist that I can think of, so this is fine.
-
The sudden switch-up to Poison is interesting. Why not confuse phys? Chie had Skull Cracker but that's a very early game niche that doesn't apply to the rest of the game. Yosuke has Confuse Boost and Ailment Boost now, so having the phys be boosted in ailment chance sounds like an amazing bonus given how niche ailment strats are already
-
Wind Break feels like a funny pick. I guess this is partially P3 brain, since Ice/Elec break are the only ones worth ever using/having. But in P4, it literally does not matter. It's not bad to have, just not sure if anyone would ever actually pick it
-
Megidola B5? Is it that good with the skill rebalances?
-
Yosuke still feels extremely shafted in terms of damage and support, there's always someone better it seems, but atp I don't think there's anything else you can do other than Megidolaon
Chie:
No notes. I guess she's just this game's Junpei now
Yukiko:
-
Lower Agilao level a tad? 20 at most since that's the MC minimum too. Just because of complaints of having to grind her for acceptable damage in Kanji dungeon
-
Tarunda is an extremely low level debuff. I guess it is fair that a party member would get it later, but 24 seems crazy late for a single target debuff. Regardless I do like it
-
I'd lower Fire Boost and Maragion too, just to have the gaps between skills more uniform too, and since her having the boost a little early makes her more enticing to use too, though I suppose at this level she mogs Yosuke already
-
I have literally never used Makara Break or Tetra Break before (attacking is cheaper and you most of the time will just null the reflect anyway...), I understand it has to go somewhere but on a Bike skill i'm not sure
-
You removed Spirit Drain, how will the AI tactics ever recover
Kanji:
-
Elec Boost to SL is good.
-
I was going to compliment you on adding Regenerates, which was a great parallel to Naoto's Invigorates. Then I noticed you removed those.
-
Arms Master not completely insane? Remember equipment exists too
Teddie:
-
Swapping Dekunda/Marakunda is a good compromise for him still keeping it. Fair play.
-
Resist Phys is peak
Naoto:
-
My invigorates!!!
-
I like how you've managed to address every issue while still keeping her faithful. All elements, kept the phys, and pretty good passives/support
-
She might strongly invalidate any reason for Yosuke here
-
Spell Master not too much?
-
Debilitate is the #1 change here, really good
-
Angelic Grace and Ali Dance not too much?
-
My INVIGORATES!!!!
-
Since P4 makes every single element the same (no procs), you'll probably want to spec Naoto into the one element you have an elemental weapon for (because I gave it a boost passive), given how these weapons are unlocked and how two of the elements are locked to the social link/bike, there's a bit of a risk that you'll have to remember skills to make it work, no big issue just a note
true gorge
Question: Can you make a weapon that has multiple passives like you can with accessories in p5?
harsh canyon
iirc for the yosuke thing, there is no stronger confuse phys, only skull cracker and mind slice
true gorge
You could make a bootleg magic ability by giving her 4 boosts
harsh canyon
iirc for the yosuke thing, there is no stronger confuse phys, only skull cracker...
the only phys ailment skills that are past rank 5 are all poison 
true gorge
All these games have really weak ailment phys skills besides maybe 1 odd one out. It was death scythe in P5, poison arrow in reload, and more poison in golden i guess.
supple oak
Question: Can you make a weapon that has multiple passives like you can with acc...
no
you can't in p5 either iirc
just one passive and one stat increase
true gorge
Really? I thought you could.
wait no, you can I think I did it a while back
This is P5, I'll look at the P4 table now
since it would have to go on a weapon if anything
but I guess that's way different in P4 too and I don't have much experience, so I'll just take your word for it lol
harsh canyon
the strongest phys ailment skill in p4, power wise, is fucking brain shake
true gorge
To add to what Meovv said, I think tarunda at lv24 is amazing.
Shadow kanji is Lv24. When I was fighting him, all I was thinking was: man, I wish I did not have to waste a turn on MC casting tarunda.
I played on very hard and I was at Lv 20 and Lv 22 with yukiko. I thought Agilao did a crap ton of dmg at this point. Granted, if someone plays normally (no crappy XP), they would likely be much higher level so I don't think this is a big issue. But I've noticed there are these strange gaps in party member learnsets in between dungeons. I wonder if this is done intentionally.
true gorge
the strongest phys ailment skill in p4, power wise, is fucking *brain shake*
As an aside, I think phys skill with ailments are way better than normal ailments still since at least you don't risk wasting a whole turn, which happens way more often here compared to P5 and P3R, where they seem pretty consistent. Honestly, this game just does not have anything that could benefit yosuke's new ailment role.
harsh canyon
actually wait what the heck brain shake is actually better than rampage against single targets
true gorge
They are on the same tier
and single target is wayyyyy stronger than multi target in vanilla.
Brain shake is just killrush 2
supple oak
and single target is wayyyyy stronger than multi target in vanilla.
rampage is chie's best skill until level 66??
harsh canyon
no accuracy penalty, slightly higher base power, and same number of hits as rampage lmao
true gorge
wait no, it is... I think it has the same attack power as kill rush and everything
true gorge
rampage is chie's best skill until level 66??
Well, multi-hit aside. I don't know if the devs actually ralize how busted multi-hit skills are.
supple oak
ah
true gorge
If you look at something like idk gale slash
supple oak
they do in fact know yes
true gorge
the suppossed upgrade to rampage
supple oak
it's on purpose
we know it's on purpose because metaphor changed how they calculate it
which means P3R wouldn't have had this problem
harsh canyon
wait no, it is... I think it has the same attack power as kill rush and everythi...
doesnt kill rush also have an accuracy penalty? or am i remembering things wrong
true gorge
what did they change?
true gorge
doesnt kill rush also have an accuracy penalty? or am i remembering things wrong
no it is 90 i think
so i guess it has that going for it
Oh also, someone told me that sukukaja affects the probability of multi hits
is that right? and how does it work?
supple oak
they changed the damage formula so that every hit is now an even split of the total power of the move, so if its 2 hits 500 power, each hit is 250 power
but they also made it so that individual hits can crit or miss, it's not an all-or-nothing like persona, so that's likely why
sukukaja affects it in reload and likely the others but reload is the only verified one
true gorge
they changed the damage formula so that every hit is now an even split of the to...
niceee
so basically you can just set the average power to be slightly higher and the game just does the math for you
harsh canyon
i gotta use brain shake more in my next p4g run 
true gorge
What does brain shake do here? is it panic as well?
true gorge
I still don't know what half of these ailments do lol
supple oak
so basically you can just set the average power to be slightly higher and the ga...
as a result multi hits now have the inverse problem
hassou tobi is absolute dogshit because it splits the damage into 8 hits and the total is just a really moderate severe slash skill
true gorge
like, what the heck does enervation even do
it enervates 1 foe, i know
but like, T-T
harsh canyon
halves all stats, chance to fail any skill, very high chance of trip
harsh canyon
so like distress??? minus the crit
did distress ever prevent you from using skills?
harsh canyon
only safe options when enervated are to guard or use items
true gorge
wait, wouldn't that be good for yosuke?
harsh canyon
every other has a chance of royally fucking you over lmao
true gorge
if you proc that on an enemy, you can increase dmg output
harsh canyon
give him rage instead
true gorge
though probably most of them will resist it anyway
true gorge
<@567419614338875404> While I'm at it, I've always preferred your approach to de...
I think the gap of severe is a bit too much
harsh canyon
idk how the damage is calculated but i assume rage is stronger than enervation
true gorge
In p5 it was from 300 to 600 and colossal was 800+ i think
supple oak
tiers dont actually mean shit
harsh canyon
but idk whether enervate or exhaust does more damage in comparison to each other
true gorge
idk how the damage is calculated but i assume rage is stronger than enervation
good question
I really should look at you guys' skills before talking lol.
but the spreadsheet hurts my eyes
You could remove some decimal places to make it more legible.
supple oak
the decimals are kinda there on purpose,, lol
i know it's hard to read but they're generated by formulas
true gorge
yeah, but do you need 8 digits after the zero
true gorge
and skill power
If you guys want, I could help rearrange yours. But I wouldn't want to mess anything up.
true gorge
a lot of fields there arent for reading, they're for calculating shit
oh nvm then
supple oak
that table is basically final
other than maybe some adjustments to herculean strike and 1 or 2 other skills
when making changes i run a filter that completely changes the order of the skills
so formatting isnt a good idea
true gorge
Ah, now that I look at it, it does make sense
It's just that the magic stuff threw me off. But it's pretty much sorter by power.
Though it is in descending order
supple oak
it's sorted by the Effective Combat Strength tab which is a formula taking number of targets, powers and procs into account
true gorge
You guys are not nerfic hassou tobi at all?
true gorge
Oh sorry
harsh canyon
supposedly the damage calculation for p4g is 5 * sqrt(skill power * attacker STR / defender END) * level modifier * random variation
supple oak
supposedly the damage calculation for p4g is 5 * sqrt(skill power * attacker STR...
possibly, but that's also a 16 year old gamefaqs post so idk if i trust it
true gorge
supposedly the damage calculation for p4g is 5 * sqrt(skill power * attacker STR...
Nah, I like my dmg formula better (Hits*sqrt(Power))^2
if you are just comparing skills, you can factor out a lot of the common things like str and end level etc
But to find exact dmg, I'd say it is pretty accurate
I fought shadow kanji:
Lv 22 Yukiko
Agilao (100 power)
Enemy EN 16
Magic 21
supple oak
i sorted by ECS because the entire purpose was to make all skills fit an ascending hierarchy that aligns strictly to the "Ranks" that atlus assigned to them in-game
rampage is rank 3 and was top 10 with the ECS ranking system
true gorge
so it would be like
harsh canyon
that would make enervation about a 1.41x damage buff if ive got my calcuations right
supple oak
the system isn't perfect (some skills became samey in edge cases) but it was a miracle fix for some shit i wasnt even aware of
like, for example, i indirectly fixed chie
harsh canyon
so in terms of how effective ailments are for damage, it would be rage, then exhaust, then enervate
true gorge
i sorted by ECS because the entire purpose was to make all skills fit an ascendi...
Yeah, kind of crazy
(3*sqrt(40))^2=360
So rampage is stronger than every phys skill, only behind brave blade if every hit connects
harsh canyon
Nah, I like my dmg formula better (Hits*sqrt(Power))^2
is this based off of anything
true gorge
huh not really, i just made everything up
supple oak
true gorge
(hit*sqrt(base power))^2
gives you Power^2
basically waht you input into the TBL and what is on the github skill page
harsh canyon
true gorge
so what is the confusion? sorry
I had someone ask me the same thing before, but i thought thats how everyone did it lol
supple oak
the reason hassou tobi is "61.96773353931867" is specifically because of said rooting
harsh canyon
why are you trying to say things with a theoretical made up damage calculation that doesnt even adhere to the little things we DO know
yeah
true gorge
I promise it makes sense.
but whatever lol dw about it
I'm getting the same numbers as meovv with my weird formula
supple oak
fair enough
true gorge
But huh meovv, what do you thing we should give naoto
to take out angelic grace
Brawler and I were stuck on that for a while
supple oak
Well i'm not exactly opposed to it but she already shitstomps yosuke's damage and gets doubled evasion on top
like
true gorge
I came up with this for my stuff
supple oak
and evasion is yosuke's thing too
harsh canyon
doesnt she have higher speed than yosuke at max level or smth
supple oak
i strongly support stacking the three invigs on her especially if you're giving kanji regenerate privilege
true gorge
The issue with the invigorates is mainly due to the fact that we wanted bufudyne and ziodyne got be obtained early
AND mind charge
supple oak
level progression
true gorge
Maybe if we move it to her leveling up would not be so bad
but then what do we give her for the slink lol
supple oak
teddie and naoto have less than the rest anyway
true gorge
Yeah, but her leveling is pretty close
supple oak
you can keep 3 on slink and make 1/2 early
supple oak
having all three is the funny
true gorge
Kanji starts out at lv 25
he gets regen 2 at...
huh
i need the other table
This is what my table looks like
but i think we put regenerate at around the same part
basically, naoto would already have invigorate 2 due to her being lv 55
true gorge
and evasion is *yosuke's thing* too
I was thinking that maybe yosuke could get ali dance for his final bike ride
instead of megidola, but that would be kind of early
and he already gets an evade passive for his weakness
unlike naoto, who has no weakness and does not learn any evades
supple oak
he needs something juicy to compensate the fact that he is always, without question or room for interpretation, weaker than someone at everything
sukukaja is the only thing he has lmfaoo
true gorge
Yosuke in this game is like akihiko (Good single-target phys and magic)
but akihiko had the highest dmg output if you buffed him
supple oak
buffed him *and gave him ungodly amounts of prep
true gorge
They also get stuck with a weak move for like half of the game
true gorge
buffed him *and gave him ungodly amounts of prep
It's so worth it though. After you get gigantic fist, he steamrolls everything.
supple oak
junpei also does so with no prep
supple oak
who needs survivability when hack n blast shits out 7600 damage
true gorge
I did not play vanilla, I keep forgetting to point it out. Toning down crit and theurgy dmg does a lot.
supple oak
bro that changes the entire conversation lmfao
true gorge
Ik, but we are comparing something good to something broken.
If you take out the broken, you are just left with 2 pretty good choices.
I think the issue here is that Kanji already has the heavy hitting role
Chie has the crits
And Yosuke is like in between i guess?
The closest character he resembles would be akihiko. But what made akihiko good was his support and his passives to boost stats.
Now he kind of has ailments and all that, but i still think he is underpowered (in vanilla at least).
The biggest issue he had was that he got stuck with power slash until he got brave blade, but that has been addressed here. The question now is what else can he get to make him stand out a bit more. Ailments are nice, but something is missing.
supple oak
unfortunately its either cracked healing, cracked damage, or cracked evasion
true gorge
Wait
supple oak
he needs something to be mega cracked so there's a reason to use him over anyone else
supple oak
that's naoto's thing man no
true gorge
If koromaru pulled it off, so can he lol
yeah ik i still had to try lol
I can't wait to see if they have a persona trait/characteristic-like system in the remake
What do you think yosuke would get?
I think something like scoundrel eyes like yusuke in p5 but for weaknesses or smth.
Maybe Insta-Heal
so that you can always use him and not worry about ailments?
He is one of the party members that almost always acts first
so him being able to recover and use items to not waste turns would be nice
Plus it would fit in with the new ailment master role he has going for him now
supple oak
instant ailment recovery is fine until you remember the mc is hardcoded to always be first
true gorge
I still think it's fine
in normal encounters this is not the case unless you have really high agility, and i still think freeing up the MC's turn (assuming he has smth to protect himself) is still worth it since he will most likely act second
supple oak
turn order in bosses is determined by party join command order
not agility
yosuke does default to second yes i think
but not because of his ag
true gorge
In bosses yeah.
Well, that gives it an extra layer of strategy lol.
But yeah, besides that, I'm out of ideas too
it's not like we have much to work with here
Oh, I'm happy you like the resist phys stuff for teddie lol. It is consistent with events in the story and everything (Brawler sent this before lol). https://tenor.com/view/you-cannot-get-rid-of-teddie-persona-4-golden-persona-teddie-gif-14855579182554824964
It's crazy how teddie and yukiko are mostly unchanged.
Same thing with debilitate, it's just that one skill that you can just give anyone and make the top tier immediately. The only issue with it is how late naoto gets it.
Due to her bike rides being in january. Not what is the latest you can fight the ng+ boss though.
The most glaring issue of the list so far is what to do with angelic grace/ali dance. So we should fix that if we can. I also agree with meovv that spell master is overkill.
true gorge
give youthful wind both karns
There is a skill called element break
That, well removes all magic resistances from a foe
that can be useful if we look the other way
dusky thicket
Yosuke
* I like Confuse Boost. Yosuke has access to Silence as well, but he doe...
pinning this for my reference later
the switch up to poison with Yosuke is because there are literally no other ailment phys AOE skills with that sort of power. the only choices rn are
- give Yosuke non ailment phys AOE
- leave it be because I do think he needs a good late game AOE phys
if there were another AOE skill with confuse I would be more than happy to switch it over
Chie: I assume you think she's fine now lol
and with Naoto, the removal of her invigorates was not bc I felt they were bad to have in general, I really want her to have all of them available but I had a lot of trouble finding spots for them. in general I tried to avoid having new skills be more than 1 level apart with a couple of exceptions, and... yeah 😭
will look at the rest later
but yeah this is where I'm like, hey, can we have another higher level ailment phys skill for Yosuke
dusky thicket
that table is basically final
don't forget to fix the heavy and severe magic skills they're still 320/650 respectively in the sheet
dusky thicket
@supple oak how do you feel about Naoto's general power/viability right now compared to everyone else besides Yosuke? do you think that removing ali dance/angelic grace and maybe moving those over to yosuke would affect her all that much?
I think one thing I've kinda noticed here is that Yosuke and Naoto in this current revision both end up being all arounders and I'd like to avoid them being too samey without leaving one gutted
worldly jasper
Yosuke
* I like Confuse Boost. Yosuke has access to Silence as well, but he doe...
spell master's just an actually slightly useful version of invigorates smh
i do think ali dance might be a bit too much but also its funny so idc, angelic grace wasn't anywhere near good enough to warrant being bike 5
my only fear with naoto is she's like really reliant on her bike skills to not be kinda mid
but ig marakunda helps her stay alright
I do also think Megidola might be too weak for Yosuke's B5
dusky thicket
I completely agree
worldly jasper
given its literally weaker than blight
dusky thicket
...but what else could go there? because I think Megidolaon would be too overtuned
plus it feels a little too Naoto-y
worldly jasper
i honestly am thinking "fuck it, megidolaon" but idk if people would think that invalidates naoto too much (literally 5 wasted days vro who care)
like megidola feels at MOST it should be bike 3 or 4
although like
dusky thicket
well what I was thinking was giving Yosuke angelic grace or something. ali dance is funny but I think it's most appropriate on Naoto bc B5 is in February for her lol
dusky thicket
Yosuke could get some decent use out of B5
dusky thicket
it's only elemental magic right
worldly jasper
rpl light/dark and null fire
giving yosuke some kind of dodge-tank passive makes sense, probably more than naoto even
but also like
ali dance is just a meme if given to a party member
since its the best skill in the game
lmao
worldly jasper
it certainly fits his B5 more than meghidora does even if i think meghidora is a good inclusion
meghidoraonn would be cool to see imo but also like it does make him really similar to naoto outside of their support
dusky thicket
I think the problem is that I can't really see a good way to change them without making them too similar
I already think they're a little too similar as is...
dusky thicket
mhm that was brought up already though
my answer is, we need another blight tier phys skill
worldly jasper
i agree with naoto brave blade simply on the principle that naoto deserves a good single target phys option and brave blade's the only one that fits while not being either exclusive or too strong
yea i think in general phys progression is kinda wack in the mod concept
gigan fist 4 levels before blight despite being weaker and single target is also dumb
unless you guys buffed that skill again
i think a lot of the skills need looked over
dusky thicket
meovv didn't make any changes and I think maybe we need some changes
the main one I want right now is a phys skill with different ailment + blight power, but I think blight could also be toned down in power and same with vorpal blade
worldly jasper
balancing things based on skill rank and not like level obtained is kind of silly given that skill rank as a mechanic literally only impacts mutations and nothing else. its used for nothing else in the game besides an obtuse mechanic people only use to get ali dance, victory cry and primal force early
dusky thicket
also ends up affecting protag personas if you aren't doing Izanagi only
worldly jasper
i think phys needs looked at again cus magic seems a lot better rn
besides at endgame
phys has no real curve it kind of just like shoots up massively once you get to brave blade
which was also the case in base game but its more extreme now
dusky thicket
meovv alone is the one making these edits rn haha so you'd have to ask directly
but I broadly agree with you and it would give me a little more room to work with for skills I think
worldly jasper
i also think ailment phys should probs be like touched up
as it stands the cards for it are really fucking late and the skills are just terrible
so maybe just outright changing where some are in progression would be better and could give you more later game phys options
cus rn its literally just like
vile assault is the only kinda usable phys before brave blade
and blight is the only good aoe phys besides multi-hits
oh rainy death is really good too
maybe too good even lol but like phys kinda needs it#
true gorge
I already mentioned this, but instead of focusing on dmg, why not give yosuke insta-heal as his last bike skill?
That's something I definitely see myself working torwards, and it's not super broken even if you get it kind of early.
Ali dance helps naoto stay alive, and insta heal helps yosuke support the team better with items+frees up the MC's turn from having to heal everyone. If he is going to be mid, might as well embrace it.
Heck, why not throw in fast heal instead of auto-sukukaja, and move the latter to his level progression.
Teddie already has a lot of utility and is really good already, so why not shift the ailment dealer/immune to yosuke.
true gorge
vile assault is the only kinda usable phys before brave blade
Hear me out here: why not buff tempest slash?
It's apparently in the same tier as vile assault, but it does super weak damage.
Even without taking into account the 1.5 down bonus
worldly jasper
i think every phys skill needs retuned
lol
not just one or two
almost all of them are identical or like weak enough to where the difference is minimal
true gorge
what are you thinking?
I was thinking to just amplify the accuracy vs dmg vs crit tradeoffs.
Makes you wonder if p4 initially started with 3 dmg types like in P3
worldly jasper
I mean something more akin to p3's power progression generally speaking lol but like its something that'd take a while to log out and would also require you to rebalance every enemy as well
true gorge
I mean that's true, but i think just making the skill differences a bit more discernable (even if its a little bit compared to vanilla) and adding a description (to give additional indication of what one skill does better vs the other in the description akin to "high critical rate, below-average accuracy") would be a good compromise that would not require to rebalance the whole thing.
dusky thicket
I mean something more akin to p3's power progression generally speaking lol but ...
too much effort haha
even as a bandaid fix, I think trying to balance out the skill progression to reduce big jumps would go a long way
dusky thicket
I already mentioned this, but instead of focusing on dmg, why not give yosuke in...
not very useful imo
dusky thicket
Teddie already has a lot of utility and is really good already, so why not shift...
another problem is then what does Teddie get as a replacement?
but Teddie is also meant as an alternative to Yukiko (in terms of healing) so I think it makes sense to leave him like this
(realized that my original statement was false)
worldly jasper
even as a bandaid fix, I think trying to balance out the skill progression to re...
i think the mod's def gone a bit too far with the phys nerfs given magic also got buffed
like random skills nobody even uses getting nerfed's just a bit silly
true gorge
How strong is magic here?
I saw severe was 620 in the old revision.
Whats is it in the newest one?
dusky thicket
220
player usable severes are 350 but there is no mention of amagidyne
worldly jasper
they made dhains 220 and severes 350
true gorge
dhains
?
oh the heavy ones are 220
so a dyne with buff and amp does roughly 770
That's about the same as god's hand
Severe on the other hand would be 1230 or roughly 23% stronger than god's hand
I think that's fine for late-game due to the investment of 2 extra skill slots
supple oak
i know rank is a mutation parameter but if you can find any example beyond herculean strike of a skill where its rank doesn't match its level of acquisition then i'll change it
it indirectly fixed most issues
by itself it's already a great improvement/base
i'm more inclined to accept empirical data over theory too
lategame magic does feel a bit crazy but im not exactly seeing a massive issue
mutation and sword rank goes upwards, it's a logical vertical line
further you're in the higher rank of the cards that drop
further you mutate the higher the rank of the skills
it would be natural to assume that going up in rank would not downgrade the skill
and it seems like for the most part, rank is also correlated to the levels at which personas learn stuff
if there's outliers we fix those
true gorge
You guys might have fixed this, but when I was doing the balancing for my mod, this stood out to me
supple oak
you're looking at the vanilla values tab again
true gorge
Yeah you are right