#Bird Photography

1 messages · Page 15 of 1

scarlet tulip
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i may have one from the same burst with the head in the light, but iirc his wing isn't dipped as nicely

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glad you enjoy!

green meadow
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I really like terns. It is so hypnotic to follow their flying and fishing. They are also brave birds not afraid of bigger birds and if human goes too near they surely reminds about it. 😅 Sometimes flying terns are bit difficult to photograph specially if they come really near. They make so sharp turns and those long wings makes it hard not to clip them and if you get whole bird inside the frame it is difficult to decide how to compose it. You nailed it. Great job. 👌

scarlet tulip
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i got lucky with one coming near shore, these little ones like fishing the shallows

green meadow
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Lately it has been quite slow. I've been bit busy and feels like all birds are hiding even more than usually. I have concentrated to those that are easy to find. 😅

scarlet tulip
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glad you like the image, the composition, nothing worked in color so i tried monochrome and the rest came from there

green meadow
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B&W bird so it works really well.

scarlet tulip
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the bill is red, iirc, in better light i'd want to highlight that but it was all very backlit

green meadow
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True true the bill is nice detail that pops out, but monochrome also works great.

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On the Monday there were young ones on the pier near by me. I thought that I will get so many photos of parents delivering food to them but. Food delivering was bit on the slow side and after a while they just left to some other place.

scarlet tulip
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i've never seen a young one before, that's cute

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they're like short versions of the adults

green meadow
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I think that I've seen them once or twice before. They are cute indeed.

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Cool looking bird and great photo. I feel like that I never get opportunities to photograph perched predators.

gilded gale
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Yeah, a lot of the time they are out of sight in the forests near my house 😦 but I was lucky enough to get this one.

green meadow
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Predators are always just something else. Cool if that one is something you consider as common bird. 👌 😄 Probably could be bit sharper, but great photo never the less.

frozen belfry
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yeah lol. Had it set up from last night ans just ran outside lol. Its fine, theres hundredddssss of these kites up here in the NT and still see a few back home in NSW

wispy mesa
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Common birds are beautiful, too

frozen belfry
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yeah definitely. Just not bummed about the pic because tehre will be many more chances

daring imp
mint warren
mint warren
green meadow
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What are these? Some shoveler or what?

mint warren
green meadow
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Well all of them 😅

mint warren
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First two are Australasian Shovelers

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The ones with the Pink ears are as their name suggests, Pink Ear Ducks

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Easily one of my favorites, they have a lot of character

green meadow
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Those are definitely something special.

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We have nothing like that here.

mint warren
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they're great

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Their babies are cute af too

green meadow
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Argh...what a cutie and that bill or beak. 🤩

mint warren
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Bill with a membrane specialized for filtering

daring imp
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Hunting for owls now wish me luck! Im in ruka atm @green meadow

daring imp
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When a bird flew away it lost some feathers so i picked them up. Never seen that before

hidden wyvern
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its like hair, kinda just falls out, gets replaced

daring imp
barren yoke
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it depends on the season

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sometimes they loose them in like fights and stuff

wheat hare
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Just remember some places have very strict feather owning laws

barren yoke
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yup

wheat hare
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daring imp
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I googled. There is no law like that here @wheat hare

wheat hare
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cool, thanks for doing research and not just being a turd 🙂

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too many of those types around unfortunately

daring imp
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Feathers are nice to collect. I have a few

barren yoke
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I hate that law sm

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I've found so many cool owl feathers in the woods

daring imp
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I know eggs are illegal to collect

barren yoke
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I only want the feathers lol, I don't care about anything else

wheat hare
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yeah I know and honestly if you find it on the ground 🤷 I'm not going to rat you out but some people will do dangerous (to them or the animal) things to acquire them so that's why it exists.

daring imp
barren yoke
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yeah even then i really dont want to hurt bugs

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i did get a bird feather id book tho 👀

daring imp
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We have too many mosquitoes here its insane

barren yoke
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yeahhh id rather they just disappear lol

wheat hare
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Live raptors will be at this event and some can spot prey from a mile away! For the safety of our feathered and furry friends, dogs are not allowed. lol love it

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I want to see a raptor carry away a small dog so badly

barren yoke
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yesss

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like a annoying little chihuaha

daring imp
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My dad saw an eagle carry a rabbit once. So fookin jealous

daring imp
barren sigil
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What happend ?

spring vault
wheat hare
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snapshot because the wife likes pelicans.

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I'm doing some culling and some of the shit birds do is goofy.

gilded gale
wheat hare
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more randos that I'll never edit

gilded gale
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lots of baldies today 😄

wheat hare
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These are a few months old since I've moved away from where they would chill around the house

gilded gale
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I really like how the background came out on this one even though it's just a headshot

hidden wyvern
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far from a perfect photo but i love seeing little birds

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they even just sound like a tiny robin, chirp is "smaller" sounding

wheat hare
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alright that's enough randoms from me

daring imp
hidden wyvern
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got a few keepers today id say, need to get out there more, lately its been a heatwave but hte birds got used to it

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guess i have to as well

pure belfry
frozen belfry
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the first

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wow

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theyre all beautiful actually

scarlet tulip
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last one of the kingfisher is my favorite of the group

green meadow
hidden wyvern
daring imp
daring imp
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My feather collection

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Added a lucky feather to my cam too

wispy mesa
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I forgot i took this! finally something halfway decent in terms of lighting

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everything else seems to be heat hazed or too dark or too far away

daring imp
wispy mesa
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we have a nice river here, and the trees are growing quite a bit below the walkable part, so it's perfect. but as the other side is a natural preservation area (or however it is called) a lot of the birds are on the other side of the river and that is already quite far

spring vault
wise trench
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i redited this photo i took awhile ago, really happy with how it turned out

frozen belfry
wispy mesa
# frozen belfry

oh this blue is beautiful! the raptor reminds me of saturday, we were driving on the highway and a bird of prey was coming out of the bushes directly besides the street. of course i couldn't photograph it!

frozen belfry
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i hate when i see birds while driving 😭

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there were literally thousands of them

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hard to see on phone pic but literal thousands

wispy mesa
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like they are teasing us

plucky condor
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Praying magpie

wispy mesa
proven token
# spring vault

Hey! You use the A6700 right? Would you absolutely recommend that camera for all round photography and some beginner videography?

hidden wyvern
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this guy suprised me the other day, pretty close to me

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like how that one came out

spring vault
gilded gale
# frozen belfry

I've been trying to get a good picture of the belted kingfishers in my area! I really like what you captured here!

frozen belfry
gilded gale
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so far this is the only decent pic I've gotten XD

frozen belfry
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😂 still a beautiful bird

gilded gale
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They really are 😄

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I think they're allergic to me though, that was at 800mm equivalent and it's still the size of a grain of rice XD

sinful viper
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I find they usually enjoy leafless trees but I don’t think they’re restricted

gilded gale
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Yeah, that's what I've also noticed for the ones I've seen so far as well

wheat hare
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They like to use the same perches so watch them for a while

spring vault
scarlet tulip
sharp valley
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I’ve just been on a 1 hour walk and didn’t see a single bird unless it was really high up and far away

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It’s so annoying dude

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This is the place

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What are the best places to see birds

green meadow
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This might have been quite good for this weeks contest, but I will stick with the one that I already submitted.

green meadow
# sharp valley What are the best places to see birds

At least here in Finland July is often rather quiet time what comes to birds. After young ones leaves nest, most of the birds seem to disappear some where. Then they come briefly back when it is time to migrate back to the south.

spring vault
frozen belfry
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dont think any of these are worth editing

wispy mesa
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i wish i had those birds! ❤️

gilded gale
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getting a tad closer to the kingfishers!

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still crazy cropped tho 😦

frozen belfry
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soon

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one day

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that branch is perfect

green meadow
wispy mesa
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i really find it interesting and love to see the different birds in the different areas of the world. and what everyone calls "ony the xy bird" where then others are totally amazed of because it's not common in their area (does that make sense? i can't really find my words today in english)

frozen belfry
green meadow
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true true, but those are more common bit up north from where I live. Sadly I have never seen one.

frozen belfry
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aw:(

green meadow
frozen belfry
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my bf is near Kajaani, he hasnt seen one:(

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it is one of my life goals to photograph one

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as well as photograph a sukhoi again (i fucked up my chance the other day 😭

green meadow
# frozen belfry it is one of my life goals to photograph one

Some times they are quite familiar to people. Just need to be at the right place at the right time. 😄 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMzpM-V6mgM

Toinen video puheliaasta riekosta. Tämä on kuvattu myöhemmin keväällä, jolloin riekon kaulassa näkyy jo vähän kevätpukua ja silmien yläpuolella todella selvästi erottuvat punaiset ihopoimut. Kamera Praktica DVC 14.1 HDMI.

Edellinen riekkovideo on saanut paljon katsojia niin tässä sen kunniaksi toinen video riekon juttelusta.

▶ Play video
frozen belfry
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😮

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give

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💜

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its so cuteeeeeeeee

green meadow
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Yes it is 🤩

frozen belfry
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finland just keeps getting better

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adorbs birbs, moomin, snow…. happ

wispy mesa
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it's these (not my picture)

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Rose-ringed parakeet

frozen belfry
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awww

wispy mesa
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ah found it, this is my picture

frozen belfry
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awuhhhh

green meadow
wispy mesa
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at the moment they are labelled "potentially invasive"

green meadow
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Good that they are not (probably) that harmful. 👍 🙂 But some (luckily few) pet owners should know better. And I think that this is better known issue now than what it has been back then.

wispy mesa
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yes, i think so too, people are more aware globally, thank god

hidden wyvern
frozen belfry
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i love them even more now

hidden wyvern
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kinda like a pigeon sized chicken that also sounds like a laser beam sometimes

frozen belfry
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my heartttttt

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i wanna breed them

gilded gale
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omg theyre amazing

green meadow
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This is sad. Young golden-eye has fishing lure stuck on its belly from the hook and fishing line is tangled around its ankle. It was standing on a rock in the middle of flowing water so I didn't have any means to help it. 😓

scarlet tulip
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I’ve seen that with mallards before, people are too careless with their fishing lures

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All this for what amounts to catch and release, it’s a bizarre hobby at times

frozen belfry
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oh poor sweetie

green meadow
frozen belfry
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I dont agree with catch and release

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catch to eat

scarlet tulip
scarlet tulip
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which might not be bad

green meadow
scarlet tulip
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Today was a good osprey day

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Tomorrow I’ll go back to the same spot with more sunlight in the morning, I hope

green meadow
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Sounds like a plan. 😃

mint warren
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I'm hopefully gonna have an osprey day tomorrow morning

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but the nest is in a spot with too much backlight, all my shots so far have not worked out

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hoping I can get one fishing

mint warren
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Tried to salvage what I could, awful lot of backlight and didn't expect it

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Also obligatory fairy wrens

mint warren
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yeah they blue

icy sparrow
scarlet tulip
outer totem
hidden wyvern
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went to a trailhead, got scratched, sunburned and a photo of a sandpiper so im happy

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lots of barn swallows too

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pipers run really fast when zoomed in, swallows were even harder when flying

hidden wyvern
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this bird is amusing

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just looks so annoyed

wispy mesa
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I saw this young Black redstart today and it was so brave that i really could come quite near to it.

scarlet tulip
spring vault
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nice duck

mint warren
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Anyone here done any bird photography in Vietnam, particularly near Da Nang?

green meadow
wispy mesa
plucky condor
drifting silo
green meadow
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Grebes zebra baby.

scarlet tulip
scarlet tulip
pure belfry
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nice wing tip dip

scarlet tulip
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I was happy to find it when I checked the burst

gilded gale
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freedom from slow mode!

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But yeah, getting closer to these kingfishers is such a pain @scarlet tulip

scarlet tulip
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it really is

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i've tried about everything i can think of short of a blind or a ghillie suit

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they're too skittish

gilded gale
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it's like literally any sight of me and theyre off, click clacking away

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i swear it's them laughing

scarlet tulip
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and they'll avoid a perch if someone is even looking toward is

pure belfry
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I usually shoot my kingfishers in roughly the same locations. I know where they're likely to perch before I go, so I can plan my approach to their likely locations where they won't see (much) of me before I am ready to shoot.

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Also, sticking to areas that are actually frequented by people will often work better, because they're less likely to immediately fly when they see someone

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So creeks near walkways etc are always good.

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This image I got the other day was a result of both - and in the end the kingfisher was quite happy with me moving around it at relatively close range:

gilded gale
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Yeah, I've been trying to get them at the lake that is surrounded by a park around here

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yeah that's wild

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I'm still stuck with this

pure belfry
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I totally manifested the above shot. It's one perch that I always hope a kingfisher is on

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Normally if I don't see one I just move on

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but I camped the spot out

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and one just arrived.

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After getting a few decent shots I tried moving around and he stayed

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which was a surprise

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Sometimes you just need to get lucky with wildlife

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can't exactly ask them to pose where you want

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You can setup in a spot, frame a perfect image and just wait for a subject to arrive though

gilded gale
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Somebody turn me into Snow white or Pocahontas already T.T

pure belfry
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just be prepared to fail more often than not

drifting silo
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City birb

green meadow
drifting silo
wispy mesa
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i love and hate them at the same time

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the birds, not your picture. the picture is great!

solar bay
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i am so happy i got a decent photo of an American redstart these birds move so fast (this is an unedited photo)

wispy mesa
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as i said, light and heat are not my friends at the moment, so the quality is horrible, but look at this beautiful pattern of feathers!

green meadow
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I had today some kind of artistic moment and tried something different/abstract.

hoary sigil
hidden wyvern
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Pretty happy as this is my second time getting the chance

green meadow
mint warren
hoary sigil
mint warren
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ah fair nuf

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still nice photo

hoary sigil
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Ty

wheat hare
scarlet tulip
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State ought to put snipers out

mint warren
hidden wyvern
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either way to them its like a tiger approaching your children, idk why people think its fine

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here's another red-winged blackbird but of a completely different look

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these guys are the perfect example of mess around and find out, they attack every single bird thats like 30x its size in the area protecting their nest

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good news from that article is those idiots probably wouldn't have done much of anything yet in reality, but hopefully they get charged and hopefully never do it again.
If that island i seen with the puffins wasnt protected people would be hiking on it, throwing trash and garbage everywhere, probably polluting the water and leaving plastics and the birds would leave with so much attention, people need to just follow basic rules like those signs lol

wheat hare
hidden wyvern
scarlet tulip
wheat hare
hidden wyvern
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anyways though, that belief with it scaring birds is not unprofound, just inflated. One person seeing a nest doesnt cause them to abandon it, wildlife researchers say its influenced by many "threats" to the bird

wheat hare
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Big ol fat 'Depends'.

hidden wyvern
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birds of prey usually have to deal with other birds of prey fighting for nesting space, its natural for them to run into threats to their nest

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how much they are willing to put up with it though, hard to say

wheat hare
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👍

scarlet tulip
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This is a relatively simple rule these people violated

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Given that we can’t state the exact level of disturbance that might make the falcons leave their nests behind, its best to just close the trail

hidden wyvern
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well the problem is that is was closed, people just being people

wheat hare
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lol

scarlet tulip
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Frankly, if there’s budget for a trail camera, there’s budget for an SR25 and a few boxes of Gold Medal Match

hidden wyvern
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need like 50 signs past the other 15 signs that say dont enter for them to maybe see it

wheat hare
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They see them they just don't care.

scarlet tulip
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This isn’t some well-intentioned bumbling

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These people see the rules, they know the rules

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And the rules clearly aren’t a sufficient deterrent

wheat hare
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Especially when the trail is a cool one

scarlet tulip
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I personally am cool with the federal government killing these people where they stand, on reflection this is a better deterrent than a fine Daddy pays anyway

hidden wyvern
scarlet tulip
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It would work!

hidden wyvern
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need jailtime or something at least, fines are flawed by being rich/parents who will pay or being so broke you cant pay anyway

scarlet tulip
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Can put some big signs up too

hidden wyvern
# scarlet tulip It would work!

actually then theyll think people are hiding aliens or something in this random walking trail and motivate them to explore more

scarlet tulip
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Oh true, you’re right

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Or they’ll assume it’s being used for weird conspiracy stuff

hidden wyvern
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part of why i like these trails is not having to deal with mindless behavior like what these guys do lol, havent met any weirdos on walking trails yet, goes to show its not impossible to encouter though, earlier seen some video of a guy harassing geese with his dog because geese "annoy" him like thats intentional

wheat hare
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Unfortunately Acadia is a National Park and there's a shit ton of idiots every year like every other National Park.

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There is no fix.

scarlet tulip
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None that would pass any kind of political muster anyway

hidden wyvern
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oh i see, ive never actually gone to a full-on national park yet

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i stick to random nowhere trails which i see on ebird and stuff and regular town parks

wheat hare
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I plan to spend a lot of time in the North Woods

hidden wyvern
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those sandpipers i found recently were off the side of some trailhead near a random rocky beach, a beaten path but there was like 3 people on the beach in total

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much more peaceful lol

wheat hare
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The North Maine Woods is the northern geographic area of the state of Maine in the United States. The thinly populated region is overseen by a combination of private individual and private industrial owners and state government agencies, and is divided into 155 unincorporated townships within the NMW management area. There are no towns or paved ...

hidden wyvern
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honestly surprised thats in the us its so close to me lol

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i live in ns which is around here (highlighted) practically a boarder hop away from it, theres also some big spots like it here( smaller area though iirc)

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im hoping to go here someday, wildlife reserve of sorts, protected but you can to exploring and such

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would be a place to see bears, owls and such

hidden wyvern
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that wimberly monogimbal makes it easy to just swap between both ratios, also the monopod makes it much easier to get to eye level with the bird which i experimented with this friday, so far pretty happy with it

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this one is either a juvenile red winged blackbird or the female variation, as mentioned they do protect nests in the area from ravens and such, could be either

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one issue with it is the lack of a carrying bag, forgot that when moving lol

dusty fog
wheat hare
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Oh good they at least identified the asshats in Acadia

mint warren
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Osprey time

mint warren
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better crop of a previous pic

wheat hare
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This may be ridiculous because I'm so anal but if it was mine I'd slightly burn the brighter spots at the very bottom edge of the crop

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it's a lovely photo

mint warren
wheat hare
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just don't crop out the moss 😄

mint warren
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good lord no

mint warren
gilded gale
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getting closer >.<

wispy mesa
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Guys, I saw a kingfisher sitting in a bench yesterday QuagYay 🤩

mint warren
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Nice

drifting silo
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Went out today in hopes of spotting more stonechats only to find that the spot where they stayed last time had been destroyed ImOkChamp
There used to be lots of shrubs and branches for them to perch

kindred locust
gilded gale
kindred locust
gilded gale
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I don't feel I over sharpened 😞 anything else to look for?

analog kindle
kindred locust
gilded gale
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Yeah I just thought you meant it was over sharpened through editing.

kindred locust
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No no, its sharp naturally

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Sharp lens etc

gilded gale
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This one look a little better? Went back this morning and the duckos were still sleepin

hidden wyvern
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ground level shot of a duck

gilded gale
kindred locust
kindred locust
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You just lay down and take a shot? Alrigjt

hoary sigil
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I saw wild Flamingos earlier, I'll edit some better photos I took on my camera later on

gilded gale
gilded gale
# kindred locust Damn! That's sick, which lens?

This was the sigma 150-600, I now use a canon 100-500. And yeah get the camera low and shoot away. I often rest my camera on my shoe while I sit for low shots. Having an articulating back screen helps keep you out of the dirt and mud some.

hoary sigil
hidden wyvern
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much easier to get ground level with a rut or something

gilded gale
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I'm actually pretty happy with this one I think

scarlet tulip
frozen belfry
drifting silo
dusty fog
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One of the best

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Brighten up the left side of the head though?

hidden wyvern
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every country seems to have a "chickadee" or something like it, one of my favorite birds

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just a fluff with wings pretty much, so many different colours though

hidden wyvern
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speaking of small birds, here's a very grumpy baby nuthatch

wheat hare
hoary sigil
hidden wyvern
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was just walking by though lol

dusty fog
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finally got pics of the bird i've been looking for since i first bought this lens

spring vault
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very cute

hoary sigil
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Called Piper

dusty fog
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yeah i remember

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thats an incredible short

hoary sigil
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Fr

dusty fog
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the sand and water sims are insane

hoary sigil
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Yeah

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I wish I could get shots that sharp

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I always manage to miss focus by a tiny bit

dusty fog
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haha, well the grass is always greener
i'm really not happy with the files from that body

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it's a Zfc

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but i use that over my Z6ii for the extra crop

hoary sigil
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Fair

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I use a Sony SLT-A55V

wispy mesa
daring violet
spring vault
vale lava
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bro is eepy

mint warren
vale lava
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unedited but quite interesting

gilded yarrow
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Do you guys know if there are any birding discords that arent just local?

barren yoke
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I'm in a bird discord called Birding International

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I mostly use it for ID help because there's a lot of opinions there

gilded yarrow
barren yoke
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Ofc!

gilded gale
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New lifer today! Barred Owl!!

barren yoke
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Sweet! Owls are the best

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Cool shots too

vale lava
gilded yarrow
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Man I cant seem to find good photography spots

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Everything is so close to other people

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I've gone out like 5 times in the last 7 days without a single good pic

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And I dont have a car to drive to different spots either

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Got 1 forest around 10km from me, maybe I'll go there the next few days

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1 forest where I've never been*

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The forest thats basically right behind my house doesnt seem to have any good photo spots

spring vault
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it's also not really the ideal time of year

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later in fall and spring will have more birds for me at least

gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
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This is what I hate about germany, 99% agriculture and near to no actual nature anymore

hoary sigil
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Same with UK

dusty fog
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nice drone photography tho

gilded yarrow
dusty fog
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ik...

gilded yarrow
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Literally everything wtf

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So annoying

gilded yarrow
drifting silo
gilded yarrow
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Saw this funny looking guy today

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1 photo after 3 days of being outside, I believe I just go out at the wrong times, I should just wake up early lol

spring vault
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mornings are op

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too bad that's when I'm sleepy

gilded yarrow
solar bay
hidden wyvern
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2 years of hoping to find this bird and finally did within reasonable distance

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i hid in the trees in some mud trench and waited for it to come to me lol, kingfishers startle easy

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(it still seen me by the way)

gilded yarrow
#

Theres still beautiful nature but nothings really wild anymore, hope you know what I mean haha

#

Thats why I wanna live in one of the nordic countries in a few years, either sweden or norway

solar bay
#

I hope you like the cold

gilded yarrow
#

Much better than hot weather

#

When its cold I can just wear more clothes, a thick jacket etc for it to not be that bad

#

But you cant do anything about hot weather apart from staying inside lol

hidden wyvern
#

Might head back someday this week to see them again

solar bay
solar bay
gilded yarrow
#

Are you from there?

gilded yarrow
#

Ooh thats nice too

#

A bit too far away tho haha

solar bay
gilded yarrow
#

And then a few months later the sun is still up at like 2am lmao

#

Super weird

#

I think its called Polar night or something

solar bay
#

it's kinda like that here but less intense our sun sets at 11pm in summer and in winter it sets at 3:56pm

solar bay
green meadow
solar bay
#

nice

gilded yarrow
green meadow
#

When I was younger I didn't notice it. But now it is obvious that lack of daylight in winter times affect you also mentally.

#

But luckily there is long summer days to load your batteries. 😅

gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
solar bay
green meadow
green meadow
#

But even thou winter can be bit tricky. I really like that we have real four seasons here. 👌

solar bay
#

here are a couple of northern lights i took while camping (i just have to edit them)

green meadow
#

this is taken from my backyard about week ago.

gilded yarrow
#

Around 2 weeks ago or so we got them in Germany again too

#

2nd time this year already and completely unexpected, I was just trying to see the perseids

#

Not green tho

wispy mesa
gilded yarrow
green meadow
#

Yeah I heard that sun is in really active phase so there is good changes to see auroras even more often and more southern parts than usually.

gilded yarrow
#

Yep

#

Close to its max

wispy mesa
gilded yarrow
#

The max is around mid 2025 so we got almost a year left, chance is pretty high I'd say

drifting silo
#

Last time i stayed up till 3am up on a hill for nothing

solar bay
dark ermine
hidden wyvern
gilded yarrow
#

Definitely too far away but I finally found one again!!!

#

This is uncropped lmao

gilded yarrow
#

Wooow

gilded yarrow
gilded gale
#

Pelicanssss

spring vault
mint warren
#

luv pelicans

gilded yarrow
#

Yo @green meadow how often do you go out and come back with no good pics

#

I've been looking for wildlife for almost 2 weeks straight now and I have zero pics I'm actually happy with

#

Starts to get frustrating lol

mint warren
green meadow
# gilded yarrow Yo <@1100418339274231899> how often do you go out and come back with no good pic...

Well only rarely I come back home with nothing. If I don't see birds then I might try to photograph something else like landscapes or other nature subjects (some details etc.). Also most of the time I come back with bird photos. That's because I photograph same (also everyday) species over and over again. I'm sure that there is always room fro improvement and that I haven't taken my best photo of let's say mallard yet.

#

But then I also have my doubts. Sometimes I think that I have great photos and other times it feels like everything I have ever got are useless crap. 😅

#

I totally understand that frustration. But remember, it only takes one successful day in the field to turn everything around and make it all feel worth it again. Keep going—your next great shot could be just around the corner. 👍

gilded yarrow
frozen belfry
#

@green meadow sorry to ping and ask an unrelated question here. General chat is busy. With Finnish military call ups, what exactly happens? Is it just final assessment to determine role? Or actually getting assigned the role? I tried looking it up but getting mixed results and bf is at work still

green meadow
# frozen belfry <@1100418339274231899> sorry to ping and ask an unrelated question here. General...

Well process might be different now but at least when I was there about twenty years (OMG! how old I'm) ago. They told about the military service and then there was kind of brief assessment (according to doctors health check that had been done beforehand) and chat about if you are fit for military service in the Finnish Defence Forces. Then they said where and when I'm about to go to military service. But I think that there were nothing about what I'm going to do there or what my role will be. I think it might be possible to discuss about the role already then if you know what you want to do there. I don't know why they put me in artillery? But there during the service I knew I want to be a truck driver. So in some meeting or evaluation after the basic training they asked about that. Then I was accepted to a driving school and I got to drive a truck. Hopefully this makes sense and answers your question. 😅

#

May I ask why you are interested about that?

frozen belfry
# green meadow May I ask why you are interested about that?

Thanks Antti:) my boyfriend is Finnish, he’s 18 and has his call ups tomorrow. In the past he’s been excited about it but recently been quite nervous. He just got back from work not long ago and said he would prefer just some peace and quiet distraction rather than talking about it, which I understand. Just wanted to get an idea of what’s ahead of him so I can do my best to support him but not overwhelm him with questions and make him more stressed. I thinkkk he’s decided he wants to try for combat camera (he’s also a photographer) or maybe an IT role because that’s what he has been studying but not sure whether he’ll get either of those. Thank you so much for the info

green meadow
frozen belfry
#

He’s a huge military nerd, extremely fit and quite smart, I’m sure whatever gets thrown at him he will be ok. I’m just hoping and praying for him, trying to do the best I can from down here in aussieland 😂 thank you again

green meadow
#

Happy to help! 😄

gilded yarrow
#

Is this a fledgling? Just hopped around

barren yoke
#

Most likely

frozen belfry
#

@green meadow congrats!

wide flint
#

These alpine accentors in Romania were super cute and tame, very nice subjects

gilded yarrow
#

Holy shit I'm finally getting some pics again after none for 2 weeks straight

#

So happy rn

gilded yarrow
#

1st one edited, thought I'll try a different aspect ratio what do you guys think?

wide flint
#

Especially on the left

gilded yarrow
#

Already made it a little bit bigger but I think its still a bit too tight not sure

spring vault
#

show the uncropped pic

gilded yarrow
#

Increased contrast and the space around the bird

spring vault
#

idk I would take more pics and get one with a better angle and pose

gilded yarrow
#

Yeah he flew away after that lol

#

This is the only other one I got, imo not really nice

spring vault
#

#15 pic u posted above looks nice

#

Robin or whatever it is

#

u can cook with that

gilded yarrow
#

Kinda boring pose tho

#

The other ones a bit soft sadly because it was at 1/800th handheld at 600mm but I'm sure I can just sharpen a bit lol

#

Uncropped

gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
#

Sorry for the Spam lmao

analog kindle
drifting silo
wide flint
analog kindle
#

Yeah, I mean it's not too far north....

#

They are just about gone now for the most part

#

I think

wide flint
#

Yeah I always just thought they were tropical birds but I guess I couldn't be more wrong about that

#

But yeah, we don't get them in Europe anyways

spring vault
#

I've seen hummingbirds in Maine

#

they migrate around

#

there are many species tho and some stick to the tropics

wide flint
#

Idk which one I like more

#

I think the second one, also way overdone the saturation on the first one now that I see them side by side

dusty fog
#

first photo is better but the editing is rough

#

try to isolate the subject more by removing some contrast from background and foreground

wide flint
#

Honestly think B&W also has potential

dusty fog
#

Yeah Lightroom has subject and object detection

#

Idk the warm light could be really nice

wide flint
dusty fog
#

Could probably crop more too

wide flint
#

Still haven't figured out how to actually mask properly in there, tried it like 5 times but keep on fucking shit up

wide flint
#

If I fully cut out the bright spot on the top left it starts looking awkward

dusty fog
#

i think its fine if the background was lighter

wide flint
#

Slowly getting somewhere

dusty fog
#

the darks are super dark

wide flint
mint warren
barren yoke
#

Hey

#

I have a quick question

drifting silo
#

Yes?

#

Not that i can guarantee that i can answer ur question PepeLaugh

#

But what is it

barren yoke
#

This photo or

#

It's a photo contest for something

drifting silo
#

I feel like youve posted these before

barren yoke
#

I have

#

I'm trying to decide between them

drifting silo
#

If its a stylistic choice then its alright

barren yoke
#

Yeah kinda

#

I really like the reds

barren yoke
drifting silo
#

1st one is obviously cleaner, i would go in for a tighter crop to remove distracting elements

#

Second one though looks more interesting to me

#

The background on the 1st one just looks too flat for my taste

barren yoke
#

Mhm

drifting silo
#

You need to figure out how to make the bird pop, create a nice composition, and use the surroundings to ur advantage

barren yoke
#

I wasn't going to change anything, I'm kinda behind

#

Just as they are, which would you pick?

drifting silo
#

Like make the dandelions interesting but not overpowering

#

Idk if its gonna work out though

#

U just have to give a try urself in post

drifting silo
#

2nd one and just crop tight

#

But thats just me

#

Im just not a fan of the flat background of the first

barren yoke
#

I love them both lol

#

But I didn't want to submit 2 of the same bird

#

Maybe I should flip a coin

drifting silo
#

This looks okay-ish to me

wide flint
#

second one looks better yeah

#

but they are both really colourless, idk if it's part of the theme, but it doesn't make them that interesting to me

green meadow
#

I'm with @drifting silo second one looks better and that tighter crop works better.

barren yoke
#

Most of my photos are kinda monochrome with neutrals

frozen belfry
barren yoke
#

Okay, thank you! I'll do that lol

frozen belfry
#

Good luck

barren yoke
#

Do you have any title ideas?

#

I was running out of ideas lmao

wide flint
barren yoke
#

Wait what type of crop? Like just smaller or portrait or...

#

Most of my photos are off center, so I'm trying different things

drifting silo
#

Just tighter in general

#

Im not limited to a single cropping style or aspect ratio

#

Whatever works for the photo

barren yoke
#

Okay

#

Just a ss but this?

drifting silo
#

Too much emptiness on the left

#

I suddenly cant remember what that word is lmfao

#

Blank space

#

White space

barren yoke
#

Negative

drifting silo
#

Idfk 😭

drifting silo
#

If u wanna go w/ portrait orientation that can work too i think

#

But just for my own personal taste, I tend to leave negative space in the direction the bird is looking

#

Having it behind the bird’s direction just doesn’t look quite right to my eyes

barren yoke
drifting silo
#

That looks ok but my eyes are distracted or rather attracted by that cluster on the top right

barren yoke
drifting silo
#

Yeah that looks ok

barren yoke
#

Do you think "Burdock Sparrow" sounds like a stupid title?

#

I can't think of anything lol

drifting silo
#

But i have no idea what the judges would be looking for

barren yoke
#

True

#

Idek it's not just bird photography

#

It's a photo contest for everyone who lives here

#

Any topic

drifting silo
#

Well thats a difficult one then

barren yoke
#

Lol

drifting silo
#

Cant even tell if the judges would be more biased towards a certain genre

barren yoke
#

Mhm

#

I'm just going through the photos that fit the requirements and picking my favorites

#

I submitted 2 of my cat photos, a loon, kinglet, Killdeer and that sparrow

#

I'll let you know if I win anything 🤷‍♀️

#

It's by Oct 1 so might be awhile lol

drifting silo
#

Actually yeah thats weird

#

Im opening the photo on my phone

#

And its pretty visible but when zoomed in it disappears

#

Ig its just a problem when viewing on smaller screens

#

Sorry about that lol

wide flint
#

I see a slight halo around the bird as well tho

#

On my pc

#

But you gotta be pixel peeping for it to be really noticeable

drifting silo
#

Yeah

barren yoke
#

It's alright

#

I might actually scrap the last sparrow because the contest is max 3 photos

#

And I have 4

#

Haven't actually picked tho

waxen shard
#

birb

wide flint
#

That is one birby birb

green meadow
#

LOL...This never gets old. Pair of great tits. 😅 Who is that genius that has decided English name of that species. I'm quite sure that it was some guy. 😂

wide flint
drifting silo
#

if I remember correctly Antti uses the Z9 with precapture

#

And that goes up to 120fps? Cries in 7fps lmao

frozen belfry
#

Don’t make me cry again lmao

wide flint
#

but precapture is also such a sick thing

#

I hope some day in the future it will also be implemented on more entry level camera

wheat hare
#

Yes 20fps raw

#

Precapture, 30, 60, 120fps all jpeg. 30fps full-size jpeg, 60fps 19mp jpeg, 120fps 11mp jpeg

frozen belfry
wheat hare
#

Maybe Nikon will get their shit together with raw precapture soon™️

green meadow
#

It was good example how big difference it is between editing raw and jpeg files.

frozen belfry
#

Oooo

green meadow
#

Also lot more detail and room for crop with better resolution.

#

I'm also really hoping that Nikon would add precapture for raw files too.

frozen belfry
#

That would be nice

#

Hmmmm do I hold off on a new camera then hmmm

#

I’ll probably still be too broke when it comes out though lol

green meadow
#

Yeah it is difficult decision when to upgrade. It feel like something new comes up right after you have purchased something.

#

and if not that then big discount campaign at least

frozen belfry
#

Yeahhh

#

I luckily got my xh2 on huge discount. The campaign had ended but they hadn’t yet changed it in the system so they let me take it cheaper

#

Had close to grand cut off the price

gilded yarrow
drifting silo
#

My reaction time is just so bad ImOkChamp
I had so many opportunities to practice takeoff shots today and didnt get a single one. The birds were very relaxed and occasionally walked up to me to the point that my lens wouldnt be able to focus anymore.

#

But anyway this still allowed me to get some nice closeup shots

#

Just not cool flight stuff, skill issue redacted

green meadow
gilded yarrow
#

Ahh very cool

#

I wish I had a garden for something like that

green meadow
#

Yeah feeder gives so much more opportunities and bird behavior is much more predictable.

#

Some might think that it is not actual nature photographing or that way photographer affects too much to birds behavior.

#

I think and hope that I'm doing a good deed. After all we have here harsh and cold winters for birds.

green meadow
#

For small birds it is somehow quite hard to read when they are about to take off.

frozen belfry
#

Do you have any ptarmigan photos?

green meadow
#

Unfortunately no. They are more common north from where I live. Black grouse is closest thing that we have here.

#

and of course hazel grouse

frozen belfry
#

Aaaaa they’re both gorgeous

#

I want to hug one

frozen belfry
green meadow
#

Yes quite common. But people and other predators hunt them so they are quite shy.

frozen belfry
#

Awuhhh:(

#

I love birds so much

#

Especially big ground birds:) (including chickens 😂)

#

I had a pet rooster who was more affectionate than my dogs

#

He would sit on my lap and preen my hair or fall asleep with my scratching his head

#

His name was Big Red. The horses name is Red 😁

green meadow
frozen belfry
#

Very much so

green meadow
# frozen belfry

Great pair horse and rooster. I think there is possibility to take or rent summer chickens here. If I had place for it I would definitely take one.

frozen belfry
#

Oo that’s awesome, I would 100% if I could. My chicken days are long over unfortunately

#

We also had Big Reds son… Little Red 😂

green meadow
#

😄 👍

frozen belfry
#

:)

icy sparrow
frozen belfry
#

Beautiful photos

solar bay
mint warren
#

tfw one of my favorite waterbird spots is basically dead because of council work

#

reeee

mint warren
#

or atleast it was when I was there

#

hopefully stuffs coming back

hoary sigil
icy sparrow
icy sparrow
frozen belfry
#

Also damn your about me

drifting silo
#

Currently going on an editing spree

#

I tried doing a lowkey/dark thing but it didnt work out so i gave it my usual artificial light source from the corner with a touch of warmth

#

Tell me what u guys think about it PepeLink

gilded yarrow
drifting silo
green meadow
drifting silo
#

The photo itself is very low res, about 3MP, could that be a factor?

green meadow
#

I have encountered same kind problems time to time too. And I haven't figured out what causes it. But it might have something to do with the resolution or export setting or such.

#

Partly too bright or dark pictures are annoying to edit. And too harsh light is really difficult or impossible to expose correctly.

dark ermine
#

for some reason my photoshop will randomly swap over to 8 bit when importing from lr

#

also speaking of artificial corner light, most recent b&a, I see a trend 😄

gilded yarrow
#

Guys the Kingfisher is just fucking around with me at this point

#

I've been looking for a good spot close to my home since the beginning of 2023

#

Today I rode my bike to some random ass lakes in the middle of nowhere

#

As soon as I go down this little ramp to the water what is sitting literally 2 meters away from me behind a bush

#

A fucking kingfisher

#

I was too shocked to do anything, cam was still in my backpack

#

Was thinking about getting a proof shot with my phone but I tried to get my cam out then it flew away

#

Was already getting dark so I was just sitting there for around 30 mins, saw one and heard another but didnt land on the same branch again

#

It was sitting on one of those branches, I'll go there again next week if it isnt raining

wide flint
#

Yeah, kingfishers are tough bastards to photograph

barren yoke
#

And that's why they're my fav

wide flint
#

Right before I got my 100-400 I was in the Danube delta in Romania and we took a birding tour there. I kid you not, I saw over 70 kingfishers that day, all were getting super close as well. I'm actually still so annoyed I didn't have my lens yet back then.

gilded yarrow
#

Until I have atleast 1 good photo

#

lmao

#

Heard atleast 2, maybe even 3

wide flint
gilded yarrow
#

I'm praying he's actually using that branch to hunt, if he is he'll come there again 100%

#

And if he isn't I'll put a new branch into the ground, if he sees it its a 90% chance he'll land on it and if he has success hunting he'll come back to it

#

Kingfishers are very skittish but also veery predictable once you know where they hunt from etc

wide flint
#

Yeah, but even when you know exactly where to be it could take hours to actually get them in front of your lens

#

Do you have a hide you can setup next to the branch?

gilded yarrow
#

No clue if they actually help

#

But a pop up hide is definitely the next thing on my list

#

theyre pretty cheap too

#

saw the one I wanna get for 50€ on ebay

#

Buteo something

#

This one

wide flint
#

Not a bad price for a hide tbh

gilded yarrow
#

But its kinda like a workout every time I go out, I dont have my drivers license yet so I go everywhere by bike or by walking there lol

gilded yarrow
#

Would love to get this one since its a lot bigger but thats too expensive for me

#

This is pretty cool, chair with built in hide, can only look/photograph one way with that though

drifting silo
#

Honestly im very tempted lately to just rent out a hide with those nice set up pools

#

I reckon those would hopefully guarantee some nice hit rates and even insane shots if lucky (like those kingfisher diving photos)

dark ermine
#

that really is some dedication, the only reason i get half the shots I do is because the woods are my backyard and my blind is my house lol. effort makes it that much more rewarding though

gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
drifting silo
#

The closest spot for photos for me is about 2 hours away so that also sucks

#

The transport itself (2-way) already takes ca. 4 hrs out of my day lol

gilded yarrow
#

Takes way too long with train & bus

#

Very happy that I found that kingfisher Spot basically 15 mins away from my home

drifting silo
gilded yarrow
gilded yarrow
#

Actually not even 5km

broken mantle
#

people here are repurposing those $11 pop up toilet/changing tents(with the camo motifs) as a portable hide

#

something like this but in camo. yeah its not as good, but helps us get pics of small blue kingfishers and other small shy birbs

gilded yarrow
#

Found something else a few hours ago that could work as well

#

Umbrella & camo net

#

Super simple

broken mantle
#

wow

#

thats pretty handy, i always carry a foldable umbrella in my bag, not sure if i can repurpose it too

#

might need to 3d print something to make it stand

gilded yarrow
#

Just need some way to put it into the ground

#

May not hide you as well as a fully closed blind but should work good enough

broken mantle
#

yeah

broken mantle
#

i got a white bellied sea eagle pic

#

you can tell its an eagle if you squint your eyes hard enough KEKL

wispy mesa
#

i had a flying heron today in front of the camera, and we just had a Eurasian jay in the garden. I need to check tomorrow or next week if there is something of worth on the sd card

hexed oyster
#

Anyone have experience building a floating photo blind?

dusty fog
#

a boat?

wheat hare
#

Theres a few diy guides floating around. Some use a PVC frame some use foam

dusty fog
#

thats crazy haha

#

interesting

green meadow
#

Every summer I have thought about making one that floats also the photographer. But I haven't figured out how to keep it both stable and portable enough.

waxen shard
#

having a wider base would help with stability

spring vault
mint warren
green meadow
# mint warren

Adorable creature and nice photos. Specially 2nd and 4th. 👌

jaunty sundial
green meadow
# jaunty sundial Antti, where do you suggest shooting in finland? I need to find somewhere zen fo...

If you are planning to come now relatively soon (late September or early October) Then there might be some autumn colors and all landscapes looks quite nice. Koli might be one if you don't want to travel far north. There is a hotel with spa and one of the best landscapes and some hiking trails. So not really budget friendly but easy nature experience. Ruka and Oulanka is bit more north. Lots of hiking trails and really nice landscapes and nature but also some services. There is rentable hides at Oulanka where you can photograph golden eagles. If you want to be really zen then I suggest that you rent some cottage from middle of nowhere. For birding there might be still some migration going on. So some coastal places might be good, Hanko for example. 🤔

jaunty sundial
#

Yeah im looking to go late october

#

Im in romania at the moment and planned to shoot birds, but got a bit distracted and ending up spending my time on literally anything else 😅

I think your cottage idea is very good, although i cannot drive 😔

#

Is there decent public transport out there, or a train atleast, or should i come back when i can drive?

green meadow
#

Public transport between cities works quite well. But if you wish to go in to the "wilderness" then own car is must have.

jaunty sundial
#

Thank you though i appreciate it

green meadow
jaunty sundial
#

Took some inspiration from your bear pictures today atleast

green meadow
#

Wow cool. 😵 Specially first one is great. 👍

jaunty sundial
#

Thank you thank you!

#

Scary though haha

#

Didnt realise how volatile these badboys are

spring vault
#

too close

jaunty sundial
#

Didnt wanna stress them and yeah, so scary

spring vault
#

turn around and the mom is right there behind u

#

dun dun dun

jaunty sundial
#

Honestly though nothing will be as intense as trying to capture a bird of prey actually moving

#

I manage to goof it up every time

wide flint
#

That is actually the most op spot for birds ever

#

90 Kingfishers in one day I had there this summer, Pelicans, Herons, everything you can think of that lives near water, it's an amazing place

wide flint
#

Oh and if you're still at the Transfagarasan highway you can try for wallcreepers

#

I have a good for spot for it if you'd like

gilded yarrow
#

Like actually 90 kingfishers?

wide flint
#

Yeah something like that, didn't keep an exact count and was hard to tell if they were new or just flew in front of the boat and you saw the same one again

#

But like more than you could ever keep track of, it was actually insane

gilded yarrow
#

Crazy, I'm happy if I see 2 after being out for an entire week lmao

wide flint
#

And the area around the Delta is also filled with red footed falcons, hoopoe's and bee-eaters

gilded yarrow
#

I think my hide wont arrive tomorrow, which means I cant test it until next mondayPepeHands

gilded yarrow
#

I've seen many pics with both species on the same branch, so crazy

gilded yarrow
# wide flint Ah rip

Yeah my gf comes over from friday to sunday so I cant just be gone for 3 hours lmao

wide flint
gilded yarrow
wide flint
gilded yarrow
#

I think we dont even have those here in germany

wide flint
gilded yarrow
wide flint
#

Still so annoyed with myself that I didn't just get it before the vacation

wide flint
#

Also a lot of shrikes, sick birds as well

gilded yarrow
#

Saw like 10 of them a few days ago, didnt get close enough for good photos tho

#

only got this

#

But they seem to live there, saw them in the same tree on 2 different days so I'll definitely go back there once I got my tent haha

#

only like 10 minutes from my home too

wide flint
#

Ah damn, they're quite rare in the Netherlands, especially where I live

gilded yarrow
jaunty sundial
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I saw 2 king fishers in serbia but

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No wildlife lens

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😭

jaunty sundial
wide flint
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Wait

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I cant send the link here

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But basically its at the south entrance of the tunnel all the way at the top of the highway

jaunty sundial
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No worries, can dm if needed

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Hmm

wide flint
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And you can look up at the cliffs, but they also sometimes go down in the little valley under the road there to hunt for insects

jaunty sundial
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This point?

wide flint
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But yeah, it's not a guarantee that you see them at all, it's quite a tough species. They had a nest exactly there this spring so it was a way better time to go then.

jaunty sundial
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Cheers though

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Appreciate dat

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Was hoping to get some eagle shots but havent had any luck im afriad

wide flint
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In the Danube delta we also had quite a few white tailed Eagles getting relatively close and actually perching right next to us

jaunty sundial
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Ooo nice

jaunty sundial
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Honestly i should just give up with eagles

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This focus + distance was way too ambitious but

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Fml

gilded yarrow
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Ayyy my hide actually does arrive today

wide flint
gilded yarrow
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ITS HUGE

gilded yarrow
frozen belfry
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That postage was so quick

gilded yarrow
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Its so coooool

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Got so many windows lol

paper anvil
gilded yarrow
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100€

paper anvil
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Thanks! Tempted to get one.

gilded yarrow
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This is the one I got, I think I'll try it today so I'll tell you how it goes!

paper anvil
paper anvil
gilded yarrow
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Around 2.8kg

spring vault
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most of the summer I'd be scared of mosquitoes but that'd be nice in the fall

gilded yarrow
#

Got straps too

gilded yarrow
spring vault
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theyll find a way

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vicious

gilded yarrow
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Yeah probably true haha

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But since pretty much everything apart from 2 windows is lined with mosquito nets it wont be that big of a problem

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Only thing is that it probably gets pretty hot in there since its fully black from the inside

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Atleast in the summer

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Maybe nice in the winter haha

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With the tent & stool etc my gear is officially more than 10kg lmao

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closer to 11 even

wide flint
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10kg aint even bad for a full loadout

gilded yarrow
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But yeah I'm getting used to it, and when I'm riding my bike with no stuff now my stamina is crazy

green meadow
# spring vault theyll find a way

Yeah, that's why I have looked for portable hide that has also closed bottom part. But now I realized that then it would be impossible to move the hide while you are inside.

green meadow
# gilded yarrow

But that looks really good. Spacious and still quite compact when stored.

gilded yarrow
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But after like 5 minutes I already noticed it gets pretty hot very fast

paper anvil
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I'm curious to learn how difficult it is to put it back in its bag. Please be easy.

gilded yarrow
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No problem tho since I can just open one of the side windows and enough air gets in to cool it down

gilded yarrow
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Feels a bit like it would break because you have to twist and bend it a lot but there are Videos that explain it really well

gilded yarrow
paper anvil
gilded yarrow
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Velcro everywhere lmao

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But I guess that could be a good thing too kinda depends

paper anvil
# gilded yarrow

Was it difficult to bring with you? I'll be traveling by bike mostly.

gilded yarrow
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The smaller Windows can either be covered/open completely or covered with mosquito net too, there are these bands that hold it in place

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Alright I'm about to pack my stuff and drive back home, been sitting here for around 2 hours now and didnt even hear a kingfisher lol

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Phone is almost dead and the sun is almost gone anyways

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I'll wait like 20 more minutes

gilded yarrow
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Alright I'm back home, overall the tent is great just sad that I didnt even hear the kingfisher today

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I hope theyre still there and I dont wait there for nothing lmao

paper anvil
gilded yarrow
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YepKEKL But sun was gone anyways so doesnt matter

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I need to get there in the morning not at 5pm and my chances will be better lol

green meadow
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Book smart great tit. Taken back in the days (2020) with D500 and Nikkor 200-500mm f5.6.

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Blue tit wasn't that interested in about literature.

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I'm looking my old photos and must say that D500 and Nikkor 200-500mm f5.6 was quite good combo.

bright vapor
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What do you use now?

green meadow
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Z9 and 600mm f6.3 and 100-400mm f4.5-5.6

bright vapor
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You are my biggest inspiration when it comes to birding. I got a siggy 150-600 recently.

green meadow
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Oh my, I'm kind of speechless. Thank you so much for your kind words. That sigma is certainly good choice for bird photography. 👍

bright vapor
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I really admire your photos

green meadow
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Thanks...Those are result of huge amount of practicing since 2018.

bright vapor
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They caught my eye and I couldn't stop thinking about birds for a while

drifting silo
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Havent seen any cool birds in a while but here’s a round robin Kirby

wispy mesa
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aaaw cutie

hidden wyvern
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uninspired bird and framing but this is just a little test of the bare 500 f/4 mk 1 (with 52mm drop in uv) on r6, no sharpening aside from default from lightroom to jpg type stuff

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figured itd hold up lol, will be fun to find a real scene, also at f/4 so it should actually be sharper iirc