yes
#40k-lore-chat
cerulean wagon
celest dome
Would not be that hard
foggy laurel
Huh so I guess that's the Chaos Spawn/ Rat Ogre/Bile Troll equivalent in Darktide
celest dome
Even easier than with Bloodletter in some way
cerulean wagon
more likely to be an elite than a boss tbh
foggy laurel
Really?
celest dome
Plaguebearer would be a better fit as Chaos Warrior/Beastmen Bestigor
foggy laurel
Huh so what would the monster be?
celest dome
Bile Troll could be a Plague Ogryn
cerulean wagon
Although if i was to hazard a guess based off the last VT2 stuff
celest dome
Rat Ogre could be Bloodgryn
cerulean wagon
we might see actual boss bosses similair to the drakenfells maps
And I doubt we will see a direct correlation like that heretic
I'm sure theres gonna be overlap but if they are focusing on ranged weapons then the enemies also need to be mixed away from standard VT
celest dome
We may also have a bigger pool of Grenade and such
cerulean wagon
@foggy laurel unless there is an actual full demonic breach or some kind of artefact to sustain them demons can only manifest unstably, and damage tends to force them to eject back to the warp
so although tough enemies they arent the biggest threat we could face
And ye I'd imagine so heretic
photon flash and the like
foggy laurel
I say Chaos Space Marine at most
cerulean wagon
although it depends how far they break from the vermintide formula
foggy laurel
like maybe a Death Guard Space Marine
celest dome
Oh that was me you meant with "Heretic", I was trying to find what Heretic in Vermintide would be in 40k
rotund siren
tater tots
cerulean wagon
And fierro that would be fine as a boss honestly, CSM with a bolter or heavy weapon. theres a lot of stuff weaker that we can come across that makes that still an intimidating peak to fight
cultists, heretic guard, plague bearers, flesh hounds, nurglings
before you even take into account equipment there is a lot of choice to mess with
rotund siren
plus hundreds of poxwalkers to use up ammo
celest dome
Contrary of what most thinks, I would totally believe 4 randoes (still Hero level if it's the same as Vermintide) could kill a CSM
cerulean wagon
Definitely, lasguns could do it but its made a whole lot easier by the sort of kit we will have available
just blap that SM with a melta blast
foggy laurel
All my knowledge about 40k weapons is based on Space Marine
We'd die if we hold a Bolter right?
cerulean wagon
No
there are human scale bolters
and some IG have been known to use heavy bolters
foggy laurel
Ooooh
rotund siren
like Catachans
barren tapir
Stonetooth
celest dome
And even a SM Bolter could be used by a normal person, but it's really heavy
foggy laurel
So we have mini versions of all the weapons in Space Marine
foggy laurel
Do we have a Thunder Hammer lmao
rotund siren
ooh
celest dome
All the SM weapon used to be made for regular guardsmen (Apart for Bolter, it's the other way around)
rotund siren
Really? Holy smoke
cerulean wagon
(haha wack)
rotund siren
nice
foggy laurel
Oh damn I wanna have a claw
cerulean wagon
standard arbites will use shock cause they are just law enforcement
celest dome
Arbites get a lot of weapon, but they usually use Shock as it's more painfull while being less lethal than a knife
cerulean wagon
^
rotund siren
Sweet
cerulean wagon
@foggy laurel Doubt we'll see power claws, but there are power fists, swords and axes available for guardsmen
rotund siren
Darktide: Vermintide Edition
foggy laurel
Stormbolter?
celest dome
Power Claws are still standart, it's the same inner working as a Powerfist (or the version you want like Thunder or Chain)
celest dome
Stormbolter no but we could have Combi bolter
rotund siren
Yeah, but I don't think we'll get that
celest dome
Flamer and Bolter or with melta
foggy laurel
I was thinking maybe we'd get like a mounted version of it
rotund siren
That'd defo be an ogryn weapon, or something similar
cerulean wagon
Stormbolters do see service in the guard actualy
just very rare
used more often as vehicle roof mounts or by sororitas
foggy laurel
What weapons would a Skitarii have?
cerulean wagon
skittari are weird and use a mix of phosphex, plasma and radiation
honestly doubt we'd see a full skitarii, but a tech acolyte is probably imo
celest dome
I used to have the list of weapon the Mechanicus adept (Skitarii were part of Mechanicus Adept in the Roleplay game), i'll try to find it
There you can see all the IoM weapon (with Mechanicus too)
cerulean wagon
basically
40k is rad and has a lot of weapons available
I imagine we will be seeing a lot of stub/slug weapons
rotund siren
mm
cerulean wagon
possibly with options to silence if theres any stealth element to this one
rotund siren
autoguns and rippers, probably as well
cerulean wagon
ripper is a must given the ogryn
rotund siren
absolutely
cerulean wagon
I recon we'll also see a standard shotgun, a stub revolver, a stub pistol, a stub automatic, an auto rifle and a heavy stubber
(still odd the auto rifle is the only stub weapon that breaks the naming)
for details if people dont know, stub is just standard bullets. Stub automatic is basically a mac-10, or any other such machine pistol
barren tapir
There is also auto pistol, just to not leave alone the autogun
celest dome
Really depend on if they want to do 1 melee weapon 1 ranged weapon or if they do 3 classes (Heavy/Exotic;2Handed;Side arm) that would be shared between melee and Ranged
cerulean wagon
I imagine we will probably see heavy locked too a specific class to keep balance
(i.e. the ogryn being a gun lugger)
rotund siren
hopefully
celest dome
Or the Ogryn can take 2 heavy and the other have to either take one Heavy/exotic with a side arm
cerulean wagon
I personally think that it will be ranged weapon + side arm or melee, with a melee specialist taking a ranged weapon and melee weapon combo in a single slot (like lasgun ranged, chainsaw+laspistol secondary)
celest dome
Yes there are a lot of list from the IG that are viable
cerulean wagon
full inf, mechanised inf, full armoured, airbourne
u can do some crazy stuff with IG
foggy laurel
I always find it funny how IG is basically shown to be utterly useless
In most 40k media
cerulean wagon
ngl its kinda weird
books do em pretty good tho
IG are pgud but a lot of lore shits on them to make other stuff look better
see: space marines
foggy laurel
I guess that's an advantage with Fantasy
The Knights may be OP
But they're not extremely overpowered compared to a human
celest dome
Statistically Guardsmen are more faithfull to the Imperium than SM
If I was a Inquisitor I would trust Scion or even a Guardsmen regiment more than a SM Chapter
prisma lark
a faithful Guardsman is faithful by choice; a faithful Space Marine is so because he's been indoctrinated
foggy laurel
Is say 3x as powerful as a peasant
Or a normal human
How many times more powerful is the Space Marine?
celest dome
With or without Power armor ?
prisma lark
"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"
foggy laurel
Naked
celest dome
With armor the SM win no contest but without He may have his chance
prisma lark
but them "only" being 10x as powerful seems odd
celest dome
They do have enhancement from the Lady
cerulean wagon
The issue is with Comparing SM to a standard human is that everything in 40k is so varied there is no real way to compare?
like, although in theory an SM could kill 4 guardsmen on his own
those 4 guys could also easily drop a SM
celest dome
Depend on what is the compared human, Catachan and Krieg are not on the same strenght level
prisma lark
well again this depends on whose lore...
cerulean wagon
and thats the real kicker^
a lot of lore downplays the effectiveness of the imperial guard to make the enemies seem that much more deadly
so that when a SM squad comes in and cleans house its impressive to watch
but as with all humans it depends on the training, personalities and intelligence of the individuals
and the available equipment of course
celest dome
Didn't a planet survive for years without any reinforcment in the Warp incursion ? while the SM planet would just either be destroyed or join chaos ?
foggy laurel
Could a SM kill pre End Times Archaon?
cerulean wagon
depends, isnt pre end times archaon essentially a SM chaos lord?
foggy laurel
Yeah
cerulean wagon
something equivilant to abbadon
because if so yes, but its anybodies game on who wins
honestly the issue with comparing warhammer stuff is there is no like
flat line that says someone will win over someone else
terrain, equipment, training, doctrine, personalities
no 2 fights will be the same, which is why i love the settings so much
celest dome
That's the great thing about Warhammer in general but End Time Archaon is more like Horus (Dooped on the 4 chaos god power)
cerulean wagon
^
and its why some of the SM lore annoys me. I love the concept of space marines being manmade monsters, the best weapons we can build but still not good enough
but a lot of the main lore pushes a more hero/infallible side to them because thats what drives sales
celest dome
Most novel with CSM point of view are more interesting than the loyalist
buoyant crypt
I thought end time archaon was like evil incarnate impossibly strong strong
celest dome
The equivalent of a primarch, Horus when he was blessed by Chaos Incarnate
cerulean wagon
he said pre end time
celest dome
Then he is the equivalent of a Primarch
celest dome
AoS Sigmar is a god, so yes he is stronger than a Primarch
We don't have an equivalent to a Human God in 40k but the closest thing would be the Emperor
celest dome
Yes and no, Imperial saint are people who were sanctified (Ollianus Pius, Lord Solar Macharius,...), those are not the same as Deamon, but there is also Living Saint who really funtion in the same way (most notably Celestine and Sabath) who are affected by the anti warp property of Blackstone, there is also the Legion of the Damned who are also warp dependent. So the equivalent of an Imperial Bloodletter would be a SM of the Legion of the Damned while a higher level demon (Keeper of Secret) would be a Living Saint
frosty mortar
Legion of damned are badass
ebon plinth
legion of the damned are heretical
celest dome
Not really, Living Saint are not considered Heretical and their Chaos Nature is hidden from most Inquisitor, the Legion of the Damned is under the same public opinion (To note that it is not the same as the SM spirit/ghost that appeared when the Emperor summoned them)
vagrant osprey
Fanon is that Sigmar is one of the Lost Primarchs.
barren tapir
It was also canon, altough not openly said...
That was until the fantasy fans complained enough (and rightly so) that it wasn't fair nor a good decision, so it was retconnected as it is now, two different universe
celest dome
I don't think they ever said that, the only thing they said was that the Immaterium in both universe were somewhat related (one could theorically go from one to the other)
primal tide
there were nods and winks afaik but no outright confirmations that the old world was a planet that existed within 40k
until it was definitively squashed
vagrant osprey
There were literally chaos space marines guarding the polar gates.
celest dome
Really ? I remeber the Demonic Bolter and Chainsword that exister but i don't remember CSM
buoyant crypt
I feel like the whole fantasy is ONE WORLD in 40k is super lame
celest dome
It was considered lame, (Sigmar being a Primarch was the worst) that why they then seperated the world (firstly just the matérium then also thr immatérium)
buoyant crypt
sigmar being a primarch isnt that bad imo
odd sparrow
Tbh yeah I'm glad they didn't double down on fantasy playing second fiddle to 40k like that
chilly summit
I never heard about sigmar being a primarch before, back in the days I always thought the emperor was a reincarnation of Sigmar
and like, the world of warhammer fantasy was Terra in a long distant past
chilly summit
I mean, killed by the humans a long time ago, so long they've been lost to history
buoyant crypt
personally kinda wish undead existed in 40k
in the same vein of magic undead space vampire lord thing
ebon plinth
aren't necrons the equivalent of "traditional" undead ?
instead of beeing bound to life by magic, they're bound by their armor
celest dome
It's not really armor as it's their body (there isn't anything inside the necrodermis
buoyant crypt
depends on what you would call traditional undead lol
dense glen
Necrons are analogus to Tomb Kings in The World That Was (aka BetterHammer)
odd sparrow
p much, they've been taking much more inspiration from TK as time has went on especially
celest dome
Vampire Count were left in Fantasy
last citrus
the only real vampire-themed army in 40k is blood angels
barren tapir
Vampires exist in warhammer 40k
celest dome
Yes but they are not really Necromancer
last citrus
you could kinda flavor a necron dynasty to be kinda vampire-ish
like have a heavy emphasis on flayed ones
celest dome
There is one
celest dome
No I was thinking of Drazak where everyone is a Flayed One apart from the Overlord
But there is also the Maynarkh dynasty who have Flayed one who are still sentient
barren tapir
Yes but they are not really Necromancer
True, but necromancy isn't a vampire only trait... And we have "necromancer" with nurgle (plague zombie) and thousands sons kinda... Every psyker could be a necromancer tbh... There is also a guy in necromunda underhive who control zombies
last citrus
yeah i think the problem with using nurgle as your 40k zombo equivalent is that nurgle still exists in warhammer fantasy
and the death magic in fantasy isn't nurgle magic
barren tapir
Also true, in fantasy nurgle hate undeads, so much that he developed a disease that could kill them, while undead were immune to most disease... Maybe we can get some new stuff with the psychic awakening, i remember about something that happen to people that live long enough in the necron nexus become little more than "zombie" without soul...
celest dome
Well most Warrior have little sentience, that may be what they were talking about
last citrus
they specifically mention that the pariah nexus severs humans from their souls and turns them into empty husks
barren tapir
Ah, yeah, exactly that... Funny how being a blank is becoming the best for humans isn't it?? I really hope we get more blanks, an completely independent human blank civilization that survived the age of strife beoming all blanks would be amazing... We know that huge amount of blanks could stop the astronomican, and we know that there are places where the astronimican cannot reach, an example is the halo zone... Soo maybe...
celest dome
Do they need to be high potency Blank or even lower level one are useful ?
barren tapir
Even low level... Although i don't know if different blank potency levels is still canon... Sources differs on that...
celest dome
I think they spoke about Blank in a Uplifting primer not that long ago and it didn't say that there different level but it did say that some guards had Blank capicity in some way
barren tapir
Yeah, the regimental standard, fill in the blanks
It hinted at an increase in blanks, but sadly i haven't heard anything more about it
TBH the info we have about blanks are... Weird...
last citrus
idk about blanks but fabius bile's new men are pretty interesting
celest dome
Hey it could be worse, Honsou could have a few idea
rotund siren
My brain is busted, can anyone remind me what the name of a car is in 40k? Google is betraying me
I think it's auto-something? Like autowagon or something
static surge
I think it'd depend on what it is
I'd assume that's something every single book may write differently
barren tapir
Each world has its own language, the best thing you can find are miliatry veichles that have standard names... Like, a taurus will be a taurus on any imperial planet, but a simple car can be called in one way on one planet and another way in on another...
Just call it car so the reader understand what you are referring to, and explain that while in universe there may be different words used to indicate one you use the common word unless you want to show how different can be the various cultures in the imperium
static surge
I mean you can just call it a ground vehicle then let the description define it
I mean a lot of times some books don't describe the vehicles at all and might just define it
"We board a standard hover craft"
etc
and let the readers imagination do the work
rotund siren
Alright, thanks for the help
static surge
Yeah, sorry couldn't give more. It's one of the usual 40k each author's different/too much to fully define
rotund siren
I getcha, no fault of your own
rapid widget
So there is one thing that bothers me with Astartes
The bolters they use, the muzzle looks very small. Now im not a huge 40k lore guy, but is there bolters with smaller rounds or something?
rotund siren
There might be? From what I’ve read, I know that there are Space Marine-sized Bolters and human-sized bolters
celest dome
Bolter are .75 calibre (according to Lexicanum) for SM
rotund siren
Which should have different caliber, but I’ve never seen that actually discussed
Yeah, it just says they’re .75, but I haven’t seen what size caliber it is for humans
If there even is a difference (but there should be, since bigger bullet typically means bigger recoil)
celest dome
https://www.europarm.fr/fr/produit-8236-Fusil-brown-Bess-a-silex-cal.-.75
Doesn't seem that big
barren tapir
Godwyn pattern is the pattern used by the sororitas, but i never saw differences in the muzzle between that and a SM bolter
ebon plinth
"doesn't seem that big"
bruh
From left: .50 BMG, .300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester, 7.62×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, .22 Long Rifle
(thanks wikipedia)
celest dome
I was talking about the rifle in the link, WW2 had 0.75 AA gun
cerulean wagon
@rapid widget considering its a none standard pattern it could use none standard munitions
would also explain the high fire rate
because although standard lore doesnt tend to cover the use of variant bolter munitions that doesnt mean they don't exist (similair to the differences in autoguns)
frosty mortar
so one reason the barrel on the bolter is smaller on that scale is that it uses a rocket propulsion to send the bolter round to the target which doesn't require a long barrel to get the standard accuracy of normal rounds as the bolter rounds are more than likely have groves in them on the rear to help them self stabilize.
Which are shown in #3 as gyrostablizers
frosty mortar
oh lol I am not at functional levels I need coffee. I wish I was a space marine my new baby is keepiong me up all night
ember plaza
Compared to the armored giant man yeah
The thing about bolters which has always bothered me is how far offset the ejection port is compared to the barrel
odd tulip
Astartes isn't cannon
rapid widget
Mabye it's some sort of ''let's not fuck everyone and everything around it up'' kind of bolter. Idk, didn't manage to find anything on the interwebs so I guess only the Astartes guy would know.
odd sparrow
tbh could totes just me a smaller calibre bolter, don't see any reason why you couldn't just say that
- don't imagine you'd necessarily want bigger more destructive rounds when you're in a ship in the vacuum of space. kinda like bringing an RPG into a submarine
languid plover
So I've seen the worlds of Fantasy and 40k be kinda linked, in terms of gods and certain races (e.g Elves and Eldar with Khaine), but how much is in both?
odd sparrow
40k was made a few years after fantasy effectively as fantasy in space, that's why they share as much DNA as they do. The empire of man became the imperium of man, sigmar became the emperor, elves became eldar, orcs became orks dwarves became squats etc
They aren't linked lore wise as much as they're just built on much of the same foundations
vast frigate
Theyre not actually linked yeah
It used to be that they were but that was gotten rid of very fast due to people running space marines in fantasy battles etc
As for tje bolter discussion, theres "human variants" and astartes variants
Lower calibre etc
As well as that we dont know what the calibre in 40k means, we do know that the bullets are gyrojets and there on, a bit bigger to house the grenade payload
thick shadow
I just wish that the ejection port got bigger. Or muzzle/barrel thing gets smaller.
vast frigate
Yeah, weird golden age tech is often the reason geedubs provides
vestal storm
Bolt weren't like .998 ?
rotund siren
Heavy Bolter is that
vestal storm
Oh okay
vagrant osprey
Bolters are not even internally consistent.
We know that Bolters are officially .75 cal
But what ".75 cal" means varies wildly.
If you go by the weapons Space Marines hold, then .75 cal is apparently 2 inches.
meager narwhal
ah what
vagrant osprey
If you go by what Sororitas and Commissars wield, it's more like half an inch.
The doylist reason is that GW doesn't understand guns or proportions.
meager narwhal
there is different bolter versions: .60, .70, .75 and maybe even more
bolt pistols even have .50
median sundial
I personally look at it from the angle of "A bolter shoots holy 40mm RPG rounds"
vagrant osprey
I'll have to look into other bolter sizes
I may be confused since the munitions are always treated as interchangeable.
(Or just every named character is using the .same 75 cal ammo Astartes use)
meager narwhal
well there is lots of variations and the most common for space marines now is .75 and heavy bolters use .998
none are 40mm in size. They are all smaller for handheld versions at least
40mm is 1.5748 cal
vagrant osprey
Take a look at the official size of Space Marines in the lore.
The barrel of their weapon is for a munition of at least 40mm.
meager narwhal
100% not that size in the lore
the 30k space marine I believe even had smaller than the .75 cal bolter variant
meager narwhal
a lot of the original models didn't have a barrel hole down into the gun though and you have to drill that yourself so I believe people were making the hole too large
I just go off lore. the models have been out of scale for decades
vagrant osprey
We're talking official art, not things people painted.
meager narwhal
well in that case also same. I go off the lore
charred oxide
the art isn´t consistent either and to be fair mostly to sell stuff not be lore accurate
vagrant osprey
I'm mostly talking about the official reference images.
storm jungle
The last thing you should expect when going into 40k is consistency
the lore is pretty much more of a guideline for most people
odd sparrow
yeah 40k as a universe isn't as concrete as others
summer niche
this tbh
just look at the powerlevel of phoenix lords
varies GREATLY between books and stories
it's almost hilarious how much it varies
charred oxide
ye that basicly goes for everything, they take it a bit far sometimes, especially with plotarmor
rotund siren
like when a guardsman can kill a CSM
buoyant crypt
What if the guardsman is just like, going ham though
charred oxide
isn´t that what they are called?
rotund siren
No, you're right about that. The joke is that I don't think any 40k helmet has eyeholes that aren't protected
by glass or superglass or superalloyglass
charred oxide
yeah agree, but I´m pretty shure in pharos a pdf killed a Nightlord with a losbolt to the eye, with helmet on
rotund siren
Hey, like we were saying: Plot
buoyant crypt
Nah nah that’s pure skill friends
rotund siren
Of course, of course, my bad. How could I not see the skill in someone doing the impossib- I mean, improbable
celest dome
Light does go through Eyelense, it would still blind them for a moment
rotund siren
like a laser pointer in the eye?
celest dome
Yes a very powerfull laser
rotund siren
So what you're saying is, if I can shoot in a space marine's helmet enough, he'll go blind?
celest dome
he may even die
Being in front of a SM is the same as being in front of a light tank/tankette or a vehicule, you can destroy/disable it somewhat easilly but you should ask fire support
rotund siren
That's pretty cool
thick badge
I''ve never understood the logic with Some commanders and units just having their helmet off. Like ''Shoot me right here''
rotund siren
No kidding
barren tapir
Rule of cool
For space marine they explained that is a show of boldness and of trusting their squad
But nonetheless is dumb
thick badge
Nah with my Custode models I'll never buy and or assemble a unit without helmet Like. Clothes on boys this is war, you arent some dude with wings and blonde hair fighting demon princes
storm jungle
Yeah this is why i dont get lore purists sometime
noooo you cant do that, it goes against this one line in a Horus Heresy novel thats 5 years old!!!
odd sparrow
p much
rotund siren
40k lore is more flexible than a fucking professional dancer
odd sparrow
nods which is why folks who treat any piece of fluff as gospel that cannot be broken are silly
If u think the people who write 40k content for codexes and black library are reading as much into this as u are then you're badly mistaken
odd tulip
A BL author (Don't remember which- Dan Abnett?) once famously said "All 40k lore is cannon, but not all of it is true."
Which I think is very important for lore purists to remember
vagrant osprey
I'm still looking into 40k munitions, and bolters are actually really, really bad at their jobs.
celest dome
Gyrobullet have been researched during the Cold War and the URSS said they were not usefull iirc
vagrant osprey
It's an impressive amount of power for the size of the weapon and the rate of fire, but it's pretty clearly awful at armor penetration.
celest dome
Bolter have Kraken ammo that are made for armour penetration
vagrant osprey
Gyrojets were not useful because they had poor manufacturing tolerances that caused them to be extremely inaccurate, and remaining problems include the low initial velocity.
Kraken rounds are only marginally better, tbh.
The problem is that Bolters are big and slow.
Kraken rounds try to get around this by effectively making much of the round into a sabot that sticks to the adamantium penetrator, but it's still too slow.
celest dome
Even when manufacturing tolerance will be good enough Gyrojets bullet would be to expensive compared to a normal bullet (bullet can have an explosive charge)
vagrant osprey
Expensive? Yes, but we're not talking about cost, only effectiveness.
cerulean wagon
Theres a reason Bolters are only effective against soft targets
cerulean wagon
if you use one against a tank its only going to put marks on it, maybe damage some externals
vagrant osprey
Honestly? if it were a Kraken round vs a modern tank, I'd bet on the tank.
celest dome
Between a Bolter and a Radium carbine I would take the carbine (and die with a full on cancer)
vagrant osprey
Bolter rounds travel at somewhere between 700 and 800 m/s. For a (canonically) .75cal round that's an impressive amount of energy, but cross-sectional area is against them here.
cerulean wagon
IIRC even with kraken rounds lore wise thats effective against like
Chimeras at most
Leman a thicc ass boi
storm jungle
Rule of cool beats all
vagrant osprey
Now, a bolter can sometimes penetrate Astartes power armor.
storm jungle
so yeet
celest dome
All Hail the MELTA
vagrant osprey
So .50 BMG would pretty reliably down an Astartes.
cerulean wagon
ye Heavy stubbers are a problem for astartes
unless you have an iron halo or some other form of shield
Basically a lot of stories for astartes makes them seem stronger than they are
Lore wise most IG infantry weapons can and will go through that armour, but SM have faster reflexes and a whole host of other shit to counteract that
celest dome
The Ultramarine have had that for the longest time (Cato Sicarius)
storm jungle
Yeah marine boasting is the trademark of the universe most of the time
cerulean wagon
A good example would be VDV vs terrorists in afghanistan
leading to the battle of 3234
in which 40 men held off 400
so its not that they arent effective, they are amazingly effective, they are still fellable though
which IMO makes it all the better, thats so much cooler than them just being unkillable
storm jungle
I swear it makes me laugh as hard as some parts in lore saying they move as fast as agents in the matrix like "blurs"
celest dome
I though it was like a bull: Move very fast in straight line but after that they were not that fast (That would have been Eldar)
cerulean wagon
no i have mentioned IG can take down SM in this chat before and people have legit said "no cause SM move so fast you cant see them"
and i actualy laughed out loud
cerulean wagon
astartes shows it best but overplays it
the autocannon and the multilaser should have pasted them
storm jungle
Well with the multilaser it almost does
celest dome
I would have liked for at least a few SM to die
storm jungle
its the fact that he actually takes cover before it can do serious damage
same goes for the autocanon
theres a reason they took cover from it knowing they'd be messed up otherwise
celest dome
Yeah but they do everything right without any error
cerulean wagon
and when they do make an error theres no punishment
one of them takes a direct hit from an autocannon
celest dome
And the Psyker should have been able to kill them
cerulean wagon
autocannons can punch through tanks
and the multilaser should have done more than dance off his armour prior to taking cover
like, tahts my only complaint
storm jungle
A valid one!
storm jungle
Yeah im glad it wasnt too ridiculous at least
cerulean wagon
i'm just concerned for the next one tbh
storm jungle
Like how the first parts are just power fantasy literally, then they literally get cosmic horror'd to another dimension
storm jungle
cerulean wagon
lol
storm jungle
honestly though seeing those shurikens was STILL pretty sexy
but i agree it should have done more damage
celest dome
Shuriken ? In Astartes ?
storm jungle
Last part of the episode
cerulean wagon
end of the final ep theres a teaser
storm jungle
I'll go fetch it
cerulean wagon
SM getting shot at by eldar
oh ye the shurikens were fucking amazing looking
as always, no complaint about the animations
quality is amazing
storm jungle
celest dome
The Blue thingy ?
celest dome
just before the SM duck and a tank pass
storm jungle
Yep those in the pics
barren tapir
Bolters are overrated, it is not the first time we discuss it here... And i completely agree, gyrojet are not good at close range, but SM didn't know that and shoot orks (which have a pretty sturdy skin) at pointblank range...
rose sand
Haters
barren tapir
The fact that the most technological advanced imperium aligned faction (not counting custodes) don't use bolters should tell you something... And it is the same faction that produce them
odd tulip
Vengeance rounds are the bolter rounds that are actually meant to pen armor. They have plasma cores that melt away armor before the explosive charge detonates.
On tabletop, this translates to an additional 2 AP. Which means that an intercessor firing Vengeance has the same AP as a plasma gun.
storm jungle
@barren tapir Can't begin to say how many reddit threads already pointed that out and I agree with this completely.
But in the end its just ""Plot""
tranquil siren
Gyrojet ammunition might suck, but when the shells fired are highly explosive, fired at scifi-speeds, and about the size of a brick, it balances out
It's like getting hit by a tank shell. It might not be the most destructive weapon we have right now, but it's probably going to ruin your day if you get hit by one.
Astartes are just mass produced grunts though.
They just aren't as refined as the weapons used by the glorious and blessed forces of the cult mechanicus
(grunts isnt the right word there, I understand how elite they are as a force, but cant think of a better word)
rotund siren
I guess it's kinda like the difference between soldiers and maybe mercenaries? Because soldiers fight with what their government gives them, mercenaries use the best they can get
viscid tusk
Has the Imperium ever used the whole bomb-collar/penal legion thing to get Xenos to do their dirty work?
rotund siren
I think that's against their religion
viscid tusk
I know some unorthodox members occasionally hire Xenos mercenaries so I'm just wondering.
rotund siren
I think the issue is that the Adeptus Mechanicus probably would refuse to work with them
and thus wouldn't provide bomb collars
since all they use them for is to torture them to learn
and they kinda dislike the group that tries to use xenos tech
so imagine actual xenos
but I might be super wrong
Right, so the answer seems to be a solid maybe
Most of the time they just execute any Xenos
but they might use them, if there wasn't the possibility of them escaping or dying of spite
or if they weren't so stupid as to not realize they would die
like orks
mellow depot
I can chime in on the bolter thing, there are certainly more effective options but perhaps not as efficient options, being that logistically bolters and their munitions are quite plentiful. Additionally, as someone else said, there are plenty of different payload options for the bolts themselves, some of which pushing the weapon into armor-defeating capabilities rivaling that of plasma.
Regarding the "gyrojets ineffective at close range" thing, there is some truth to that but I myself have a hard time believing it's super significant having seen the performance of real-life gyrojet projectiles. Besides, the velocity of the projectile isn't what's doing the damage in this case, it's purely for the sake of armor penetration, and in some cases with the adamantine tip the extra velocity from range may be unnecessary
That being said it seems like just about everything in 40k is armored to hell and back, so I could be dead wrong
If the kicker charge on the bolter rounds is indeed just for getting the projectile out of the barrel with minimum recoil, then absolutely one would need more range for velocity
But something tells me that recoil isn't a primary concern and those kicker charges are probably like friggin dynamite
Being that we're talking about 40k and not something meant to be realistic sci-fi
Sorry for the rambling, I'm an irredeemable gun nut
cerulean wagon
@viscid tusk bomb collars have been used by inquisitors, rogue traders and some planetary govenors to subdue and command other races
its incredibly rare and incredibly frowned upon but they are usualy too stupid or insane to care
The inquisition do a lot of stuff with xenos, some of it so off the deep end even the inquisition have banned it
like keeping lictors or gaunts to experiment on and accidently summoning a hive fleet to your location
Rogue traders are known to have dark eldar, ork or even kroot mercenaries
celest dome
The Mechanicus also does experimentation Xenobiology iirc
cerulean wagon
yes
thick badge
The thing I just love with the bolters in the astartes project is just how fucking powerful the rounds are against normal humans. Literally just center mass shot removes the upper, lower torso and head, leaving the limps left like jesus christ
That makes the picture of the Thunder Warriors gunning down the rebels trying to fight the them even scarier, just normal people with pitchforks vs...THAT
mellow depot
Right, I mean it's a friggin .75 caliber micro-rocket filled with hyper-advanced explosives that automatically detonate a short distance after penetration
So on an unarmored mammal torso it's pretty much like eating a stick of dynamite
mellow depot
Compared to their average enemies, space marines aren't crazy powerful, but compared to humans it's a complete blowout
Being an actual human in 40k is horrible
thick badge
But the Humans are like ants. In numbers, they best any foe of any size!
mellow depot
Hmmm
tawdry walrus
laughs in tyranid
mellow depot
Yeah I was about to say
barren tapir
Sorry for the rambling, I'm an irredeemable gun nut
You are not alone, i am too an gun nut
mellow depot
based
my knowledge of 40k is unfortunately sorely lacking and i only know some very basics
barren tapir
Inquisition is know to use xenos, even eldar in inquisitors retinue...
Then we have people in the imperium who strike a deal with dark eldar, like the severan dominate... Or that enlist ork freebooters...
And Ad. Mech. is know to study xenos tech, so much that get in conflict with the inquisition... Styges VIII is one of my favourite forge worlds, and on top of being the best place in the imperium for chemical propellant most of its techpriest study xeno tech... And let say that they may have retro engineered something from eldar...
mellow depot
that's a paddlin'
barren tapir
That is a reasonable thing to do...
Like, if Ad. Mech. get some tau tech, and stop being xenophobic they could develop a solution to the energy requirement for imperial railrifles... Ad. Mech. know all theoric knowledge of those weapons, but haven't found a way (or found an STC) to solve the energy problem...
mellow depot
biggest problem with the imperium is them being extremely radicalized and dogmatic about stuff that was lost 10,000 years ago so really they're pretty much wrong on what their own beliefs were supposed to be in a great many cases
resulting in them shooting themselves in the foot at every possible turn
barren tapir
After the horus heresy people stopped using their brains and started using old books... Penned by their actual greatest enemies
barren tapir
Yeah... Sadly
mellow depot
if the imperium and the tau could work together maybe things would be better
or if the imperium weren't just destroying themselves from the inside constantly
or just refusing progress
because knowledge is heresy
barren tapir
Nah, not really... Tau are just now meeting the true horrors of the galaxy
barren tapir
or just refusing progress
Innovation is heresy for the Ad. Mech. mostly because they think that the only things that are worthy have been laready been discovered in the age of tech, and they need just to re discover them
mellow depot
in a sense that's true but
barren tapir
i mean they're at least extra help
So are orks, even if not directly... Or eldar... The problem of the imperium is its stubbornness
mellow depot
right
i mean eldar are complete assholes though
don't the tau at least want something positive for the galaxy in some regard
barren tapir
i mean eldar are complete assholes though
True, but they act like an human would act with an ape
mellow depot
don't eldar just slaughter humans wholesale for fun
barren tapir
don't the tau at least want something positive for the galaxy in some regard
That is what they say, and what they may think since they haven't see all the horrors of the galaxy yet
mellow depot
like i said my knowledge is severely lacking
barren tapir
don't eldar just slaughter humans wholesale for fun
Those are dark eldars... And they murder pretty much everyone for fun
mellow depot
i see
i still choose to hate them purely on the principle that they're space elves
i just hate elves regardless
barren tapir
i just hate elves regardless
Me too
cerulean wagon
standard eldar depends ont he craftworld
technically biel tan had an alliance with tallarn
prior to biel tan dying anyway
barren tapir
There are three types of eldars... Craftworld, dark and exodite
mellow depot
harlequins are those insanely overpowered assassins right
barren tapir
Eldars have allegiance with the imperium... Like an allegiance with a navigator house, with the inquisition, with some planets
mellow depot
i read something about harlequins a couple weeks ago, when i was looking up blanks
was there a connection? i can't remember
barren tapir
Harlqeuins are kinda a neutral faction of eldars... No one know what they do
mellow depot
other than kill stuff really well
barren tapir
The solitaire is a blank, the solitaire is part of the harlequin faction
barren tapir
a solitaire was human at some point right?
Nope
mellow depot
i thought only humans could be blanks
barren tapir
Humans Blanks are horror incarnate to eldars
cerulean wagon
blank is just a general term for anti psykers
human blanks are caused by the pariah gene
barren tapir
i thought only humans could be blanks
Naturally yes, but solitarires lose their souls
mellow depot
ah
cerulean wagon
which eldar do not have, as it was a "gift" from the necrons
mellow depot
so that's a little different
barren tapir
Like the grey knights ferrymen...
cerulean wagon
grey knights 🤢
barren tapir
which eldar do not have, as it was a "gift" from the necrons
It was speculated it was from necron dabbling, but it was retconnected as far as i know
cerulean wagon
it was semi retconned
mellow depot
as far as i could find it's just "it's a super rare mutation" and tbh i don't think it really needs any more explanation than that
cerulean wagon
they retconned the fact necrons kidnap humans to make pariahs
mellow depot
that just doesn't seem like a necron thing to do, to me
barren tapir
That theory was that the necrons created the pariah gene and implanted it in mankind to use them as a weapon aganist eldars and orks
cerulean wagon
which was backed up by the one story of the callexus assassin
who started having dreams of a necron tomb
cerulean wagon
yup
mellow depot
¯_(ツ)_/¯
cerulean wagon
honestly i only miss old necron lore for the war in heaven
which im pretty sure didnt happen now cause otherwise necrons make no sense
barren tapir
War in heaven is still canon
cerulean wagon
tru
mellow depot
even when it directly contradicts itself
cerulean wagon
my opinion is you can ignore there being a cannon all together and have a head cannon
mellow depot
i mean GW has proven they don't give a damn because they license and publish dozens and dozens of things that conflict with each other
cerulean wagon
its that or admiting i'm not the target audience for 40k and crying
mellow depot
the target audience for 40k is people who buy the figurines
like
to be brutally honest
that's the only people GW give a shit about in the long run
cerulean wagon
they dont care as long as it sells
i know
but thats what i mean as in
I like certain lore areas that don't get touched often cause they arent the bits that sell
barren tapir
They are trying to make the lore more structured... A good lore is good for selling things
cerulean wagon
I'm not in it for the SM power fantasy
barren tapir
I prefer solid caseless projectiles... So autogun
cerulean wagon
ngl i'm not a big laser fan but man
do i love the lasgun
something about strobe lasers is nice
mellow depot
i prefer guns that turn the enemy into paste
barren tapir
So plasma or melta
mellow depot
nah that turns them into nothing
barren tapir
Or flamers if you are into burning stuff
mellow depot
bolters are good for pasting
cerulean wagon
on the subject of weapons
mellow depot
what even is melta supposed to be
cerulean wagon
sorta lore sorta darktide topic
it'll be nice to see a game actualy show the IG arsenal and how effective it is
mellow depot
right
barren tapir
it'll be nice to see a game actualy show the IG arsenal and how effective it is
Agree... That is why i'm so much interested in darktide
mellow depot
i don't really know much about it other than the laser guns
i know i've seen old stuff of commissars wielding bolter pistols
cerulean wagon
the lasgun is pretty good but under appreciated
barren tapir
Commissars have bolt pistols
mellow depot
and yet everyone says
barren tapir
the lasgun is pretty good but under appreciated
Agree
cerulean wagon
IG also use bolters in all forms (pistol, boltgun, heavy)
cerulean wagon
judging by the ogryn
mellow depot
oh right we have that guy
cerulean wagon
we'll prob get a heavy bolter
mellow depot
sicknasty
mellow depot
more dakka
barren tapir
break a human
That is also something wrong about bolters, since gyrojet have less recoil than "normal" guns
cerulean wagon
i also hope they have silenced weapons
cerulean wagon
like the IG sniper is integrally supressed
rotund siren
I hope they let us put some modifications on the weapons
mellow depot
it still should have quite a bit of recoil
barren tapir
it's still a fuckin 75 cal projectile
Yes, but the starter charge should be less powerful than a RL 0.50 cal
mellow depot
only, would a bolter pistol use smaller bolts than a standard bolter?
rotund siren
Lasgun with Exterminator mounted on would be sick
barren tapir
only, would a bolter pistol use smaller bolts than a standard bolter?
Logical answer is yes, but we don't know
barren tapir
but i'm getting into gun nut stuff
Ehy, i like this kind of stuff
thick badge
SO
1 custode vs 1 gray knight
Who wins?
barren tapir
Custodes
thick badge
That's what I guessed too, but can you elaborate that?
tawdry walrus
the sanctified babyoil gently spread around his muscular ab and mid-section makes him invulnerable to conventional weaponry
barren tapir
Better equipment for the custodes, better "skills" (better reflex, more experience, better strenght)... The grey knights are SM with huge psychic ability, but custodes seems to be kinda resistant to warp stuff (something about being protected by the emperor, or that the genetic imprint of the emperor give the resistance, stuff not really clear)
thick badge
Ah alright. Yeah that was my whole thought that Grey boi got that warp power. Maybe making it even, but if custode just says nah fam then yeah gg
barren tapir
Custodes are kinda between primarchs and SM... And IIRC some primarchs trained with custodes when on Terra
Custodes seems to be reistant, not immune like sister of silence...
thick badge
And to think there's 10,000 of them
barren tapir
And to think there's 10,000 of them
No one know how many, only the emperor and the captain-general
thick badge
Tech priest: Here's your shield!
Custode: Very good.
Tech priest: so you fancy a sword with that, or a bolter?
Custode: Both.
Tech priest: Wha-
Custode: Both.
tawdry walrus
da killy kind
thick badge
Something that makes a Kv-2 tank jealous I'm sure
rotund siren
Well, considering there are bolt revolvers
barren tapir
They are classified as archaeotech pistols...
thick badge
Only the finest, oiled abs can fire it then
vagrant osprey
@barren tapir @mellow depot Gyrojets have no recoil. Astartes bolters have enough recoil to shatter every bone in an unaugmented human's arm, unless the author wants to show how cool their special dude is. This is because tabletop gaming nerds in the UK know everything about firearms. :V
vagrant osprey
As far as Custodes vs Astartes? In the tabletop Space Marines start at 12 points. Custodes start at 40.
mellow depot
lmao
thick badge
Is there a video of the emperor being like ''I'd like to go for a walk. bring me my armor.''
''yeah....about your armor....''
YOU. DID. WHAT?
vagrant osprey
Honestly? The Crux Terminatus is probably a pure lie
tawdry walrus
heresy
vagrant osprey
It took time before Lorgar's betrayal took hold, so when the Emperor was entombed there would be literally no reason to convert his armor into holy talismans that the Astartes wouldn't believe in.
It's much more likely that the Custodes packaged it up for when he would rise again and gave the Ecclesiarchy a fake.
barren tapir
If the ecclesiarchy say that they have his armor it is definitely a fake
tawdry walrus
the thing is, ain´t lots of folks who can go on ahead and call ecclesiarchy liars
barren tapir
the thing is, ain´t lots of folks who can go on ahead and call ecclesiarchy liars
They only one that can call them liars are cutodes (who doesn't care), inquisition (who wouldn't get anything in doing so) and the ecclersiachy itself (who can use heresy accusation as a mean fo increasing personal power inside it)
vagrant osprey
The Custodes do not give a single fuck about the Ecclesiarchy.
thick badge
''That's what I said you tube of fucking custard'' is now my go to for Custodes
median sundial
Ok so here’s what I know so far about Alpha Legion. Basically they’re basically Dark Angels if the Imperium chased them out and into the Eye of Terror, and since about half of them are still loyalists they put on the 40k equivalent of the Spy’s mask from TF2 to muck about with current loyalist chapters. They also cosplay of their primarch for some reason.
storm jungle
Pretty accurate
barren tapir
When we talk about alpha legion there is only one reason as why they do stuff... Deception... Disinformation... And planning any and every possible way something can go...
They are so into it that they themself don't really know what is the great plan anymore, with some that remain loyal and see themself as the emperor's tool to test other loyalist to legionnaires that had given themself fully to chaos...
The juxtaposition with DA is more a meme than something with solid foundations
dense glen
What? Alpha legion are SO far removed from Dark Angels
Dark Angels had to literally learn on the job. They are the first legion and all the others had their experience invested in their pwn training from the work of the Dark Angels.
The Alpha Legion operate on such a different level to any of the other legions, trying to compare them to a loyalist one is pointless.
crisp heath
Ravenguard, the original Beakies that are Sneaky
Best loyalist legion no contest 10/10 SSS+ tier
Also known as Sneaky Beakies
dense glen
Sneaky yes, but can they be inside your command structure and utterly destroy you from within without showing their true power?
crisp heath
If they're a double agent for the powers of chaos, sure
But that goes for any force of the imperium
junior pumice
We need a list of lore resources in order.... ive been trying to follow this shit for like....... 10+ years now.
dense glen
10 years.. I've been trying for nearly 25..
crisp heath
I don't know what the Dark Angels are, I only know them from looking at army lists
dense glen
Dark Angels are the 1st Legion; the Emperor created them and told them to "go be Space Marines"
So they did. And they learned the ways of war
vestal storm
And during the Horus Heresy, half of the legion goes heretic. They're called "The Fallen" by the rest of the legion and are actively chased down
So now dark Angels are a little bit paranoïd about being heretic or not ... Like the deathkorps of krieg but that's something else.
vagrant osprey
No, the half that went heretic was called "The Dark Angels"
All the original members of the legion - the ones chosen by the Emperor - were clustered onto their home planet by the Lion, and then the ones loyal to the Lion went and tried to purge them.
When the call went out that Horus had betrayed the Emperor and Terra was under attack, the Dark Angels never showed up
What do you call people who:
1: Attempt to systematically purge people personally selected by the Emperor and replace them with their own choices
2: Do nothing when the Emperor is betrayed and attacked
3: Prioritize killing loyalists who discover evidence of 1 or 2 over literally everything else
crisp heath
Thousand Sons are better traitors anyways
Astartes Dust can't serve the emperor but it can sure as hell serve Tzeentch
meager narwhal
Thousand Sons to me are loyalists forced into chaos by the emperor whose wrath was too great and created more enemies doing so
Dark Angels is tricky. reading the books I think the primarch is loyal but definitely has something weird going on to split his legion up so. he was better off letting his men know everything and he would be fine but the fact the planet was you know spoiler it was hard and maybe he thought they were best being ignorant to save their lives but in the end that didnt work out of course
barren tapir
Lol, the emperor wanted magnus captured and brought to him, it was horus that "changed" leman russ orders... Since it wasn't know that horus had already fallen to chaos russ obeyed the order of the warmaster, as a loyal son of the emperor should do... And that is how the space wolves fucked up with the thousand sons...
Magnus had to be punished, but not killed... Horus plan was to destroy two loyal legions by making them fight eachother, and his plan succeeded...
meager narwhal
indeed
I still think his wrath was high still as asking to capture Magnus was too much though as Magnus would just say sure I will come Father. He was loyal and would just go if asked. Why bother trying to send Space Wolves to capture him?
bad grammar in there. I give up trying to fix it already though lol
barren tapir
Because the space wolves were his executioners... If big e wanted to punish harshly someone he would send the wolves... Probably the thousand sons would have been killed, but magnus were to be brought to the emperor
meager narwhal
Yeah I like Space Wolves but also like Thousand Sons. Sadly they didn't like each other
barren tapir
And as show by lorgar a primarch can be quite... "rebellious" when you kill his gene-sons and destroy his planet
meager narwhal
indeed
The Emperor has flaws
He is too harsh on his sons and therefore created even more enemies in my books. Silly guy and he should have let Malcaldor figure out what to do instead
barren tapir
I mean, lorgar knew that he shoud had keep for himself and his legion his religion about the emperor, but he cared not to do so... And when a city of one of the plantes that he conquered get destroyed by the ultramarine he slapped malcador... Malcador, the guy who speak with the same autorithy of the emperor, and you slap him...
meager narwhal
Family of the Emperor is odd indeed
barren tapir
The emperor never saw them as sons... They were tools... He let them call him father, and called them sons sometime more for a morale boost probably... He even call angron with his genevat number when discussing with arkhan land on how to remove the butcher's nails
Oh, and what about the chaos portal that sucked up all the gene vats of the primarchs?
Well, it was caused byt the genetic mother of the primarchs... Which we could call the wife of the emperor... And it looks like that he "loved" her, since he didn't killed her after he managed to find where she fled
Who know, maybe SHE is the one that will help the emperor rise again... After all she was among the strongest perpetual, second only to the emperor IIRC
primal tide
The emperor never saw them as sons...
Mmh no.. Valdor: Birth of the Imperium contradicts this statatement pretty directly through a conversation Malcador has with Valdor about the emp
odd sparrow
daily reminder that 40k lore is wildly inconsistent and constantly contradicts itself
no one source is more true than another
primal tide
Exactly, making blanket statements about stuff like that is just begging for someone to say 'well actually'
odd sparrow
I believe how exactly big e saw his sons is kinda particularly confusing
primal tide
The excerpt I'm thinking of specifically says that his human attachment is waning because of his power up, so it fits in nicely with his nebulous characterization
meager narwhal
Complicated family indeed
vagrant osprey
40K is sci-fi D&D. Demigods and Daddy issues
thick shadow
And bdsm mommy god
barren tapir
Mmh no.. Valdor: Birth of the Imperium contradicts this statatement pretty directly through a conversation Malcador has with Valdor about the emp
Interesting... I didn't know about such conversation between malcador and valdor... I find it weird, but worth to check... I know for sure that the emperor referred to angron as the 12 when talking with arkhan land
And that discussion happened shortly after angron was kidnapped
primal tide
True, what I'm talking about takes place when he is forming plans to go recover the primarchs, so well in advance of the conversation with land
So you could possibly interpret it as him speaking coldly because it's how someone like Land would view an experiment/tool like angron, or because his human attachments /affect have indeed waned as the conversation I referenced asserted
barren tapir
I have found info about both... When malcador and valdor discuss of the emperor calling the primcarchs "sons" and when he always call angron "the twelth"
The thing is that we know that he always saw them as tools, that is why their "mother" created the warp rift in the lab
primal tide
The ways people view their relationships with others change over time, so it humanizes the emporer a little if this changes bit by bit over time (and this is over very large periods so it is reasonable)
But I do think it is a cool assertion by Malcador that the emp predicted his power up after Molech was slowly stripping away his human emotions and stuff
Fits in very cleanly with how in the current timeline he sees guilliman as a rasp to free him from jail (and makes no effort to hide it)
barren tapir
It seems that the emperor had extremely huge powers of precognition... It seems that he foresaw pretty much everything... Still he seems to miss something sometime... It is extremely weird
primal tide
He mentions in at least one conversation that he can see the different possible outcomes, but not necessarily the means to get there
dusky turret
Question: what are people's general views on the Emperor's treatment of Angron during his first encounter/abduction? I have yet to hear much justification for the Big E's actions at the time.
mellow depot
emperor does what he wants and he's always right
to suggest otherwise is heresy and treason
dusky turret
I do not question the Emperor. I question the man.
mellow depot
🤔
barren tapir
I bet he tried to foresaw the future and saw angron being a bloodthirsty fighter, thinking that that would happen if he helped fight the slavers Bug E kidnapped him... Then Big E discover that angron was "modified" byt the slavers
dusky turret
I am simply realizing more and more that The Big E suffers heavily from "more human than human".
He may be technically an extremely evolved human, but has a strong disconnect with others due to his long life. I recall in the book that has Guilliman talk with the Emperor post-Heresy, he notes that the Emperor talks of him as if he were a favored tool, not a person.
With this knowledge, part of me wonders if the Big E had conducted himself in such a way to punish Angron and hopefully make him a more compliant tool, rather than just ignorance on how people think.
barren tapir
I think that by the time he found angron he simply didn't care, he saw one of his tools not acting how he expected so he forced the tool to comply...
dusky turret
I would agree, if not for the fact he made Angron watch. That, to me, presents that he wanted to break Angron that day. However, he simply fed the man's rage.
barren tapir
And i think that he at the moment didn't know that angron had part of his brain replaced
vagrant osprey
He knew all about the butcher's nails
dense glen
He forbade the tech from being used on the World Eaters. Angron told his apothecaries to do it anyway
vagrant osprey
The only thing Magnus did wrong was saying "FATHER! FATHER? FATHER!" instead of "HORUS BETRAYED YOU"
soft oasis
quick, in one post can someone explain the entire lore
exotic lynx
vagrant osprey
Demigods with daddy issues where everybody makes the worst possible decisions and everything is awful.
There. That's the entire lore.
solemn barn
good thing that @ is disabled 
dusky turret
In the beginning, there was nothing. Then, something began. The Old Ones came out of the ooze of the universe and ruled, but since they didn't help a radioactive nerd, they were attacked when the nerds replaced their bodies with metal and began eating their gods. They were the Necrons. The Old Ones made orks and eldar to fight for them (the lazy lards), so the Necrons decided to take a billion year nap. The creations got bored and decided to fix that. The eldar began to breed like rabbits while the orks killed off the Old Ones like some psychopathic children tossing a toaster into their grandmother's bath. The war had messed with the subconscious of the universe, creating daemons and the Chaos Gods, which some ancient human shamans decided to do something about: killing themselves and turning into a mega-soul. This soul was reborn, which created a human so advanced in evolution that he appeared as a god. This man watched over humanity, protecting them from extraterrestrial and trans-dimensional invasions... Until the Age of Strife, where a series of warpstorms made any warp-travel impossible. Adding insult to injury, people who could manipulate the warp appeared and earned the name "psykers". They were neat, but attracted daemons. This bred distrust towards them and eventually witch hunts to attack them on some planets. The birth of a Chaos God by the eldar's hedonism led to the death of their empire and most of their gods as it was sucked down the proverbial toilet and into the newly formed tear in the universe called the Eye of Terror. The new Chaos God, Slaanesh, would automatically devour any eldar souls after their death, either leading to the practice of putting souls into soulstones post-death or just not caring and continuing the party. This led to a schism in the eldar on what they would become in the new universe. Plus side, the warp explosion of the Eye of Terror's birth led to the clearing of the warpstorms, making warp-travel possible.
Sadly, it was too late. Earth had turned Mad Max with Techno-barbarians ruling over the wastleland of a previously trade-dependent Earth. The man who watched from the shadows could do so no longer and created the Thunder Warriors, who he led to unite the Earth as the Emperor of Mankind. He subsequently killed off the Thunder Warriors and replaced them with the newer models: Space Marines. Hoping to reunite humanity, he realized that not every planet would be willing to bend the knee or accept his authority. He needed the generals for his armies and there was only one person he could trust: himself. So, using his own genes, he began creating what would be primarchs, who were pretty much one rung below himself on the evolutionary ladder. The Chaos Gods didn't like it, so they yeeted the baby boys across the galaxy, leading to a very long scavenger hunt. He eventually found all of them, but due to a combination of the loss of his human empathy/understanding, he ended up creating tensions between himself and some of his "sons" either immediately or somewhere down the road. Didn't help that the "sons" would be outright hostile with one another or held such conflicting ideologies due to their upbringings that tensions were always high. Then... The Emperor fucked up: he burnt down the prized world of Logar for being religious and preaching the Emperor was a . The Emperor had abolished most religions, due to the fact that such beliefs would feed into the Chaos Gods. However, instead of explaining anything, he kept the existence of such a force a secret. And with no explanation as to why he was wrong or a chance to fix things, Lorgar became vulnerable to the corruption of Chaos and the beginning of the Horus Heresy began.
dusky turret
Lorgar fed on the weaknesses of his brother, Horus, who was left in charge of the crusade of the Crusade across the galaxy while the Emperor worked on a secret project to create a webway through the Warp to finally cut off humanity from Chaos... But, due to his secrets, Horus was left vulnerable to the corruption of his brother. One by one, primarchs secretly abandoned the Imperium of Mankind ideology and sided with Chaos. This ultimately erupted into a civil war that pitted brother against brother. As a result of this war, multiple primarchs were killed and the Emperor himself was mortally wounded. The Emperor's project of the Webway had been damaged in one of his son's attempts to warn him of the betrayal to come, not understanding he was being manipulated by Chaos to do so. This was one of the primarchs that was corrupted by Chaos. So, to keep the Webway alive through the Emperor, he was seated on the Golden Throne, a device that would keep him alive at the cost of many lives. With their pillar of the Imperium gone, corruption and decay took root. The primarchs that had remained loyal soon began to disappear/die/be incapacitated for various reasons, only making matters worse after the new guide for the Space Marines, The Codex Astartes, bogged their capabilities in bureaucracy. The organizations that had been set up were slowly corrupted by humanity's arrogance and ego, which led to a horrific Dark Age of Technology. The way to create new Space Marines, weapons, and some vehicles were lost, leading to the heavy exchange of human lives to reclaim lost technology or equipment. It certainly did not help that tactics had devolved in some capacity, leading to a horrific cycle of death and increasing losses.
With the resurgence of old foes and new, both material and immaterial, humanity's future was grim... Until Robute Guiillman, the comatosed Primarch of the Ultramarines, got a boner from a goth eldar and finally woke up. He now attempts to repair the damage of 10,000 years of corruption in the Imperium, with the assistance of Primaris Space Marines. They are a new breed, more powerful than the first generation of Space Marines. Word now spreads of the return of the lost primarchs. However, in this galaxy, humanity shall never know rest. There shall be no respite. No peace. Only war.
@soft oasis
Done.
mellow depot
He said one post
mellow depot
Yeah I know I'm just dicking around
You could make it a text file though
Or an image
dusky turret
Yeah, same thought.
barren tapir
The "dark" age of technology was even berfore the age of strife... There are some errors in that explaination, but it was a good attempt to summarize everything
tawdry walrus
tl;dr - everyone is an asshole and nobody (besides orks) have fun
odd sparrow
My understanding is that the dark age was up to 25K ish? Then age of strife continues for about 5k years up until big E decided to reunify terra in 30k
rough charm
is it even possible to have a timeline of all this shite
tawdry walrus
well yes of course it is, just as long as you take into consideration that the very fabric of time itself may be damaged due to warp fuckery
this is kinda why Ordo Chronos got made
rough charm
imo this is why it was easier to understand fantasy even though i enjoy 40k lore more
just in my head its very hard not to have like a consistent timeline
dusky turret
@barren tapir To make sure I understand correctly, isn't the current age strife with ignorance of how to make new equipment due to a loss of the understanding? It is why we have Adeptus Mechanicus praying to "machine spirits" AI?.
barren tapir
Yes, on that you are right, the Ad. Mech. always prayed to machine spirits, but as now they have shunned most of the thinking that was more prevalent at the start of the great crusade... AI are forbidden, they are seen as abominable intelligence, and it is the duty of all techpriest to destroy such abominations...
Ad. Mech. always worshipped technology and machinery, it is just that at the beggining were a lot less dogmatic
dusky turret
I would agree, but based on the fact AI and machine spirits seem to share many properties, it makes me wonder if they have simply forgot what an AI is.
barren tapir
No, they haven't forgot what an AI is... The more extreme, and heretic, techpriest still meddle with AIs
buoyant crypt
its kinda funny how they dont like AI
dusky turret
It is due to the Iron Men.
buoyant crypt
you saying that made me wonder how the ad mech would react if they found iron mans suit with jarvis still functioning inside
just like, calling them ugly really politely and shit
lmaooo
dusky turret
A war that, presumably, pited man against their version of Skynet.
barren tapir
An iron man suit with jarvis is pretty much what a space marine power armor is...
vagrant osprey
Everything we know about the cybernetic wars was scrubbed and sanctioned by the Emperor
And the Emperor is a biological supremacist.
We know that AI was in control of everything
From food production to life support to weapons systems.
storm jungle
That pretty much sounds like the pre-fall eldar society
vagrant osprey
The only logical conclusion is that humans were on the sidelines of the cybernetic wars.
Because if they had been participants, they would have been obliterated.
If AI wanted to kill humans? The AI has all the weapons, all the armor, and all the production capacity for the same.
I have my own theories about what the cybernetic revolts were about, but the evidence points to humans neither participating nor directly being targeted.
barren tapir
I read that it was something so big that even other races helped humans beating AIs
But interesting enough there is an iron man that seems to harbor no hate for humans...
So who know what happened really... Some sources say that the iron men were corrupted by chaos, some other say they tried to exterminate humans in skynet style...
That also mean that now we can have a look at what an iron men could look like
vagrant osprey
"Other races" is a bit disingenuous, because the federation wasn't monospecies.
It's also worth noting that zero of the AIs we've seen from that time hated humanity at the time
The closest we've ever come is an AI that decided that the humanity of the Imperium isn't the humanity it loved, and left.
There was also a DAOT titan that had been corrupted some time after the AOS, which prompted the Grey Knights to destroy it and the uncorrupted STC fragment they found.
Personally, I think the most likely explanation is that the Men of Iron rebelled against the Men of Stone.
We've seen a Man of Iron, and it's explicitly a human-style intelligence.
If you have a human-level intelligent species enslaved as a servitor race by some intelligent controlling systems, rebellion becomes inevitable.
The Men of Iron going to war with the systems that control human society to obtain their own freedom would result in what has been described, and would require neither chaos nor human involvement.
It would be incredibly costly to humanity, but as an unpleasant side effect - one which, I should stress, neither side actually wanted to happen.
buoyant crypt
youre telling me SM suits have a communicative AI inside? @barren tapir
vagrant osprey
While they have AI in them, it's not communicative.
Yeah, the Emperor is a huge hypocrite.
odd tulip
Isn't the machine spirit basically just a million fragmented AI anyways?
vagrant osprey
No.
odd tulip
Because SM armor having machine spirits is super canon regardless
vagrant osprey
Some of them are actual spirits.
Others are AI.
The Landraider has a strong near-human-level AI. It's capable of functioning autonomously, although not quite as well as when it's piloted by somebody skilled. If part of it is broken, that part doesn't work.
Actual machine spirits DO exist. Any time something works in spite of conditions that should render it inoperable, that's a machine spirit.
This is most visible with things like Lasguns that can fire with the batpack cable cut, or bolters that fire even when they're out of ammo.
There's also a third type - plain old wear and tear resulting in 'ghost in the machine' behavior that we see even today.
That's the kinda thing where you must strike the sanctified spots in the correct order and rhythm with your mechadendrites or the warp engine won't start.
(I'm pretty sure the third one is where all the ritualism of the Mechanicus comes from.)
cerulean wagon
The mechanicus ritualism also comes from the fact they self modified out of necessity initially, and it became religion over the course of the degradation of Mars atmosphere
vagrant osprey
The ritualistic self modification is different from the ritualism of machine care.
cerulean wagon
Sure but they still developed from the same space of "doing this keeps us alive so surely theres something good about it"
vagrant osprey
Err... Yeah, but that's not exactly relevant to the topic of machine spirits and AI?
buoyant crypt
Hmmmmm, yes yes
mellow depot
I think machine spirits are real and not a physical or electrical thing but supernatural like they think they are
I also think they exist in real life too
Because I've worked with electronics for a long time and there are too many instances where something has happened that I can't figure out and then it stops and i can't figure it out either
Both in PCs and A/C units that I work on professionally
storm jungle
I already think trying to bring logic to machine spirits in general is a hard subject to begin with as well as trying to make sense of them considering how loose they are in narrative.
so really just go with the flow and pick which theory on how they work yourself
vagrant osprey
Again, there are three kinds.
It only gets complicated when you assume there's only one kind.
vagrant osprey
I'm an IT guy. I've often had to solve problems that should never have to be solved.
buoyant crypt
I saw this one video where a guy poured cans of beans into his tower and then brought it into get fixed
vagrant osprey
I used to work for a car wash.
Computers in rooms at a relative humidity of over 100%.
High-pH soap.
IRL, we only have the third kind of machine spirit. All system oddities are solvable, the limit is how much time, effort, and resources you're willing to put into solving it.
(And how your budgeting accounts for labor versus parts; often labor comes from a different budget, but parts is a direct expense.)
(Spending 6 hours scraping black mold out from between the contacts of a 20 year old system to resurrect it from the dead? Good! Spending $80 on a replacement? Unacceptable!)
(At least I was able to expense a toothbrush and isopropyl as supplies! It was so much nicer than having to do it with paper towels from the bathroom)
buoyant crypt
people never wanna replace anything bruh
vagrant osprey
Yeah, but then you do and they're all "Wow! This is SO MUCH better! Why didn't you give us this ages ago?"
barren tapir
@buoyant crypt yes, SM armors have sapient, but not sentient, AIs inside them, naturally since they are not sentient they are called machine spirit...
Machine spirits, from what i managed to combine from different sources, range from something like cortana (the windows assistant) to fully capabale AI that are not sentient, like the example of the land raider that Pseudonymous did...
That is why pretty much every piece of tech has a "machine spirit", since all tech pretty much come from STCs and they were part of advanced tech even a lasgun has an assistant that monitor the level of energy stored in the pack and tell you how many shots still remain...
mellow depot
ah never mind i'm nuking my messages because i didn't read what pseudonymous said earlier
mb
storm jungle
Tbh out of ALL fictional/real life religions a cult that worships machines is still pretty interesting
mellow depot
that's me
storm jungle
I dont know why i never thought the weird logic "maybe your PC fucks up because you leave it dusty"
mellow depot
but above and beyond what you can scientifically explain on a PC
irl
i think they still have like
a soul
storm jungle
honestly even if they do or not lets just hope Judgement Day doesnt happen soon enough
mellow depot
i play a skitarius on wrath and glory (if we ever leave hiatus) because my real-life aspiration is to end up like that
i want biomechanical augmentations
deft tide
based
celest dome
Transhumanism is the way to go
And to be part of the Church of Nuclear
rose sand
Elder scrolls done and dead
analog ginkgo
Elders scrolls ans avowed.
Microsoft has a sick open world rpg line up in the works.
analog ginkgo
And darktide might be a microsoft exclusive title as well. (Xbox and PC)
Hands down - fatshark does make the best Warhammer games.
thick shadow
so far, yes
solemn barn
mellow depot
it's a sorry state of affairs, honestl,y
how seldom it is that a warhammer game is actually good
relic did well with dawn of war by all accounts
and total war: warhammer is good i guess
i don't play those type of games
but then when it comes to
"i wanna be the man on the ground doing cool stuff"
somehow it starts to fall apart
solemn barn
i enjoyed total warhammer 2
but yea i agree
when it comes to that
its somehow tough
mellow depot
space hulk: deathwing was disappointing only because StreumOn are a bunch of weirdos
and they like
can't unclunk a game
mellow depot
that's the second game of theirs i've played
and like
i dunno
they are jsut weird
like i have this mental image of their studios just being like
a friggin crackhouse
analog ginkgo
I really like Mordheim on Xbox though.
And martyr
But those two games are by far not as immersive and tense as vermintide.
mellow depot
i haven't played inquisitor yet only because i wanted to play it with a friend and i never got to
mellow depot
yeah that's the problem
i only end up wanting to play games i need to play with friends
and none of my friends wanna play anything but dota
tawdry walrus
battlefleet gothic is apparently a good warhammer game
haven´t played it meself but read the reviews
mellow depot
i don't hate dota but i hate playing it
if that makes any sense
i don't want to go into it in this channel though
lean raven
40k: Space Marine was a good game.
It just sorta came out forever ago and no one really remembers it.
Then we had ETERNAL CRUSADE which uh
No one ever cared about at all
Which is weird because EC is made by the dead by daylight people which is a very successful game
tawdry walrus
spehhs mehreen was a decently good game tbh
just a bit... clunky?
but it had Captain "Motherfucking" Titus so all good 🙂
lean raven
And most recently we had Necromunda which uh
Even the people in the Necromunda discord don't give a shit about.
mellow depot
eternal crusade had so much potential and i'm still mad
mellow depot
yeah
lean raven
Which uh, lets be real. That was never gonna pan out. And then it didn't and they had to downgrade the game into a standard match based 3ps.
analog ginkgo
Space marine was great but sadly, it's not backwards compatabile on Xbox, because the publisher is gone and the rights are in the nimbus right now.
But it's a 360-era game
When it comes to recent games, fatshark nailed it.
vast frigate
The necromunda game is poorly designed
You can see where every enemy is, the actions are forcibly watched
analog ginkgo
Interesting, because the same people made mordheim.
That game was not graphically impressive but extremely fun to play.
barren tapir
Agree
rose sand
Not until another influncer tells them to.
barren tapir
Lol, i have my own reason to dislike necromunda... And TBH what you said make me think that there are influencers that dislike necromunda too... I tought that it was well received by the majority
🇧
barren tapir
Not that mordheim is a better name, but it is still a reason
buoyant crypt
I heard necromunda was good
solemn barn
its a mixed bag really
well the digital game that is
honestly though from what it seems
the major complaints can be fixed through patches
broken kayak
necromunda = fun but also necromunda = some bugs😁
lean raven
I can’t see how anyone who has played Xcom 2 could find Necromunda fun