Tula, the Curaçaose slavery uprising leader, was rehabilitated last night.
#The Hague has fallen
somber crane
Or well, apparently today, bad weather forced the ceremony to be cancelled, so it was re-done this evening.
somber crane
somber crane
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/politiek/artikel/5412431/29-partijen-leveren-kan...
- BoerBurgerBeweging
- BIJ1
- Blanco (Sterenborg, G.)
- BVNL / Groep Van Haga
- Christen Democratisch Appèl
- ChristenUnie
- DENK
- Democraten66
- Forum voor Democratie
- GROENLINKS / Partij van de Arbeid
- JA21
- JEZUS LEEFT
- LEF - Voor de Nieuwe Generatie
- Libertaire Partij
- Nederland met een PLAN
- Nieuw Sociaal Contract
- PartijvdSport
- Partij voor de Dieren
- Partij voor Ontwikkeling
- Piratenpartij - De Groenen
- Politieke Partij voor Basisinkomen
- Partij voor de Vrijheid
- Samen voor Nederland
- Socialistische Partij
- Splinter
- Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij
- Volt
- Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie
- 50PLUS
somber crane
1. BoerBurgerBeweging
2. BIJ1
3. Blanco (Sterenborg, G.)
4. BVNL / Groep Van Hag...
Down from 41 parties submitting applications and 37 on the ballot in 2021. Of the 29 parties, 16 were elected in 2021.
somber crane
Down from 41 parties submitting applications and 37 on the ballot in 2021. Of th...
Interestingly, the Kiesraad also said that 15 parties made a fuck-up in their application, they have 2 days to rectify this or they’ll be struck off the ballot.
somber crane
somber crane
Interestingly, the Kiesraad also said that 15 parties made a fuck-up in their ap...
https://www.kiesraad.nl/actueel/nieuws/2023/10/13/26-partijen-nemen-deel-aan-tweede-kamerverkiezing
26 parties will appear on the ballot, after 29 parties applied to be on it. Jezus Leeft (Jesus Lives), Partij voor Ontwikkeling (Party for Development) and Blanco (Sterenborg, G.) (a party without a name led by Mr. Sterenborg) dropped out after not receiving enough letters of support. Most of the "new" parties are also not going to be on the ballot nationally as they didn't receive enough letters of support in specific districts.
Omtzigt and his Nieuwe Sociaal Contract did however meet the standard, and so is on the ballot nationally.
somber crane
A majority of the PvdA/GroenLinks conference (52%) has supported including the abolition of the monarchy in their manifesto.
somber crane
A majority of the PvdA/GroenLinks conference (52%) has supported including the a...
Additional context from a research paper earlier in the year.
https://206.wpcdnnode.com/ioresearch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/draagvlak-monarchie.pdf (pg. 22)
somber crane
A majority of the PvdA/GroenLinks conference (52%) has supported including the a...
Obviously not a terribly important issue, but a lot of other "left-wing" amendments have been voted down, such as additional help for students in debt, a universal basic income, etc. Although they did approve a 16 euro minimum wage.
somber crane
<https://home.noties.nl/peil/>
somber crane
This year's StemmenTracker website, shows you who is most similar to your views on the main issues of the past parliament.
somber crane
Despite what people are suggesting on social media, the Israeli-Hamas conflict has not had an effect on polling, at least yet. D66 is even more dead though.
somber crane
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitslagen/item/in-nieuwe-...
Also as for EenVandaag polls:
There will be new seat polls on October 17, October 31, November 14 and November 21.
sleek topaz
Pundits: long analysis about the implications for various parties' messaging and political consistency
Voters: Hamas? Delicious on pita bread.
somber crane
Pundits: *long analysis about the implications for various parties' messaging an...
That was peak trolling lol.
somber crane
Pundits: *long analysis about the implications for various parties' messaging an...
To put my super cool political pundit hat on.
It’s also that the Dutch right has basically always been pro Israel, at least for the last decade or two.
Wilders volunteered in a moshav in Israel for a year.
You’re not changing hearts and minds on the issue lol.
somber crane
A couple new polls recently.
https://www.maurice.nl/2023/10/21/veelbetekenende-verschillen-in-reacties-op-premierskandidaten/
And a poll on MinPres preference:
(For the population at large.)
(Omtzigt as MinPres by party.)
(Yeşilgöz as MinPres by party.)
(Timmermans as MinPres by party.)
(Wilders as MinPres by party.)
(Keijzer as MinPres by party.)
The Peilingwijzer poll of polls got updated as well.
somber crane
This is certainly an interesting take from a ostensibly left-wing party.
"Shall we act normal again?"
Beyond the open homophobia, I wonder will PostNL and Albert Heijn sue DENK for unauthorised use of their logos.
Amongst their top 10 policies (besides this homophobia which is #2), is the ||chemical castration of pedophiles|| (punishment of those who commit crimes against children) at #4, that Israel just doesn't exist at #9, and that the King must pay taxes at #10.
Also describes "LHBT activism" as "rainbow coercion."
proud prawn
Amongst their top 10 policies (besides this homophobia which is #2), is the ||ch...
They've always appeared to be a "non insane" party, although the lijsttrekker changed
#9 seems like a lazy vote grab taking advantage of current events
proud prawn
somber crane
https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6286761/bbb-kandidaat-trekt-zich-terug-vanwege-anonie...
From his account, Rekers called the then Minister of Health Hugo de Jonge, among other things, a "child molester" and "PABO quack". He wondered whether the CDA minister had already booked a "one-way ticket to Nuremberg" to the Nazi tribunal.
After Prime Minister Mark Rutte wished the new German Chancellor Olaf Scholz good luck, De Rekers called him an "NSB member". He further compared the Flemish virologist Marc Van Ranst with Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels and murderer Marc Dutroux.
D66 in particular had to pay the price for the candidate MP. He spoke of a "Nazi party" and called the party congress a "fascist ball". Rob Jetten, now party leader, went "from (anti-gay slur beginning with f) to Nazi bitch", according to Rekers. Party chairman Jan Paternotte was compared to Goebbels. D66 Minister Ernst Kuipers (Public Health) was called a "pimp", "child abuser" and "war criminal" in one message.
Surprising it took this long.
somber crane
FvD is going to take part in the European elections for Flemish seats.
“Flemish and Dutch are one people.”
proud prawn
somber crane
somber crane
@polar goblet @upbeat depot I’ve got a bop for you.
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/editienl/artikel/5417706/harry-wesselink-nieuw-campagnelied-bbb-carolientje
somber crane
somber crane
Make sure to vote today. 
proud prawn
vestal lynx
Can someone pls share the link to the vote count?
Also exit polls appear to be....uuuuh 
gaunt sinew
near sable
Yeah wtf are the polls
gaunt sinew
Also exit polls appear to be....uuuuh <:dogstare:950306986514337802>
Yeah...
near sable
I just moved here to live with my partner, shit aint looking good for us if this is the case
gaunt sinew
Yeah wtf are the polls
Polling stations closed 15 minutes ago, lol.
First exit poll in that link.
near sable
ye i mean i got no point of reference for how this stuff works
tall parcel
Does PVV have a shot at forming a governing coalition? I know next to nothing about Dutch politics.
Other than they have a gazillion parties
lone vale
PVV has said they are more open to compromise during formation, so they might have a shot. But in the last few elections the VVD has always excluded the PVV from formation talks so we'll have to see if they stick with that, because with the current polls the PVV can realistically only form a majority coalition with VVD and NSC. If either of them refuse, I don't see a chance for a majority coalition with PVV, let alone any party.
I think this might be the longest formation ever in NL if the VVD stick with their previous stance towards the PVV.
somber crane
Does PVV have a shot at forming a governing coalition? I know next to nothing ab...
NSC (Omtzigt) has said he won't govern with PVV because they don't share his view on the rule of law
Specifically, PVV want to just abrogate the Dutch ratification of migrant/refugee related conventions
lone vale
Then again, I am shocked overall by the exit polls. I have a hard time believing there isn't some fault there, considering the difference compared to the pre-voting polls.
somber crane
and just deal with it how they see fit.
somber crane
Then again, I am shocked overall by the exit polls. I have a hard time believing...
Wilders did a good job in the debate.
tribal yacht
There is an updated exit poll coming in a few minutes right?
lone vale
He did, but I just didn't expect such a big difference
proud prawn
omtzigt didnt know what he wanted
yesilgoz had a weak campaign
i hate it but pvv had a more organized train of thought this time
lone vale
Yea, 21:30 they announce the updated exit polls
nova talon
guess I'm moving back to Canada 😆
or we declare independent republic of Amsterdam tomorrow first thing
lone vale
or we declare independent republic of Amsterdam tomorrow first thing
Please include Utrecht 
tribal yacht
Well, at least FvD is nice and low
somber crane
You can follow the NOS livestream here: https://nos.nl/livestream/2498871-kijk-hier-mee-met-de-uitslagenavond
somber crane
Does PVV have a shot at forming a governing coalition? I know next to nothing ab...
Theoretically, a VVD-PvdA/GL-NSC-D66 coalition is possible, the exitpoll gives it 79.
gaunt sinew
Yep, there's a coalition calculator on the nos site above.
lone vale
Not sure PVDA/GL wants to work together with either VVD or NSC. They have been quite hostile to both.
somber crane
But, the reason the government fell was a dispute between VVD and CDA versus D66 and CU on migration policy.
gaunt sinew
Yeah GvdA aligns with the latter.
somber crane
Not sure PVDA/GL wants to work together with either VVD or NSC. They have been q...
You'd need every party besides VVD and the far right to get to 79 on that side.
So a government essentially has to include VVD, mathematically.
gaunt sinew
But... how badly do they all want to govern?
somber crane
Unless you don't want to go into government with VVD, but do want to go into government with PVV, obviously.
gaunt sinew
PS I will continue trying to make 'Groen van de Arbeid' happen.
proud prawn
it's tough because partij van de links is funny too
gaunt sinew
My best prediction is: more elections next year.
tribal yacht
My best prediction is: more elections next year.
Netherlands 🤝 Bulgaria
lone vale
I'd have to agree with that prediction
near sable
who’s voting for these people
somber crane
The people.
gaunt sinew
who’s voting for these people
One in four adults you meet.
lone vale
Disgruntled Dutchies.
somber crane
The Netherlands has had a major anti immigration element for years lol.
It's not a new phenomenon.
near sable
i mean sure but there’s shades to this
NSC/VVD technically offer more moderate alternatives to the same thing
tribal yacht
NSC/VVD technically offer more moderate alternatives to the same thing
Exactly
somber crane
NSC is CDA-lite
near sable
so why the racism push
somber crane
and VVD is primarily the Randstad middle class party.
near sable
Guess im going back to aus
somber crane
One of the Ipsos researchers said that from left to right, two-thirds of Dutch people (polled of course) wanted to see a reduction in immigration numbers.
tribal yacht
because parties that try to copy the far right to protect the right flank from them always, in the end, up losing. voters prefer the real thing, not a copy. Cas Mudde and others have written about this, and how this helps mainstream radical rhetoric and policy positions
near sable
yeah i can see this
somber crane
Given migration reduction is a two-thirds of people popular viewpoint, it is the mainstream.
tribal yacht
then ask them how many migrants they think come to the country in a year, how many minorities live in their city, % Muslim population, etc, and so many vastly overestimate on all of it
near sable
its funny because refugees don’t have work rights
tribal yacht
Of course, as an immigrant to this country, I am somehow not considered part of this """"problem"""", hmm 🤔
gaunt sinew
family guy colour chart dot jpg
proud prawn
because parties that try to copy the far right to protect the right flank from t...
do you have a link for that, id love to read it
tribal yacht
Not offhand, I'd have to search but I know he's written about it multiple times. I'll have a quick look.
proud prawn
thanks!
tribal yacht
near sable
Of course, as an immigrant to this country, I am somehow not considered part of ...
Well they wanna boot us skilled types too so thats fub
Idk whose gonna do the tech things but sure man, its your economy
somber crane
Yesterday, Dilan also said that VVD would work with PVV if Wilders wasn't in charge.
Or maybe two days ago at this point, I guess.
near sable
somber crane
Which saw PVV rise in the polls even more.
tribal yacht
somber crane
It was a very badly phrased answer, as well.
Wilders is the PVV
To prevent entryism, he is both of the two required members to register a political party.
Him in his individual capacity, and an association that he is the sole legal member of, are the two members of PVV, all its other candidates aren't PVV members per se.
So basically she has said VVD would work with PVV.
tribal yacht
I assume if it was a choice between being not in power, or being in power with PVV, VVD would choose the latter
somber crane
Both NSC and VVD voters have majorities for working with PVV.
whereas a combination with PvdA/GL is wildly unpopular amongst voters for those parties.
Unexpected Orban gif involvement.
somber crane
Yea, 21:30 they announce the updated exit polls
Here's the second exit poll:
PVV stays the same, PvdA/GL down one to 25, VVD up one to 24.
NSC also stays the same.
Also if you're watching the NOS livestream, of Omtzigt's speech to his party, he went on long metaphor speech about "taking action" and that "the Netherlands must be governed."
lone vale
Also if you're watching the NOS livestream, of Omtzigt's speech to his party, he...
Did he finally decide what he wanted?
gaunt sinew
Action. And government.
somber crane
Did he finally decide what he wanted?
“Wij zijn bereid om verantwoordelijkheid te nemen in het nieuwe kabinet, beschikbaar om te besturen en aan de slag te gaan voor een nieuwe Nederland”
gaunt sinew
Do not ask what or how.
somber crane
“We are prepared to take responsibility in the new cabinet, available to govern and get to work for a new Netherlands”
lone vale
“Wij zijn bereid om verantwoordelijkheid te nemen in het nieuwe kabinet, beschik...
Smells like stale air
somber crane
Rob Jetten coming on to Dutch language rap
You literally lost 14 out of your parties 24 seats, why are they celebrating lol.
lone vale
They still exist, that's probably why 
somber crane
"We zijn van ver gekomen. De functie elders is in Den Haag komend jaar"
Omtzigt breaking out the dad humour.
vestal lynx
My best prediction is: more elections next year.
We've all been there 
proud prawn
over/under when we need the hague has fallen 2 channel?
near sable
Tf
proud prawn
shocked
exotic vector
Same here. Very shocked by the amount of votes
Maybe not surprised
But shocked nonetheless
lone vale
The only thing I'm not surprised or shocked about is all the previous coalition parties losing a lot.
tribal yacht
I'm curious how much of this, once we see more detailed election study/survey data, was driven by a simplistic protest vote for a good chunk of these PVV voters
like 'hmm, this Wilders guy doesn't seem that bad now, might as well vote for him'
proud prawn
My theory on the weak showing across liberal parties: the GvdA coalition spread the votes around and instead of campaigning together they campaigned against themselves
Hate it or love it, PVV from Day 1 knew what they wanted and campaigned on it
nova talon
I'm curious how much of this, once we see more detailed election study/survey da...
I think the anti-immigration thing is too much of a trend in the eu as a whole to still think of this as a simplistic protest to be honest. Also it has been building for 20 years.
tribal yacht
Yeah this didn't and hasn't come out of nowhere
thorn delta
I do believe most of it is ideed a simplistic protest vote and many don’t realize in detail what they’ve voted for. But still shocking that 25% would be willing to accept fascist elements. Campaigns were also quite moderate of tone and there wasn’t any real critique in media, Wilders got the floor.
nova talon
I do believe most of it is ideed a simplistic protest vote and many don’t realiz...
Dutch people never understand what they are voting for, even when it's VVD. They voted for pim fortuyn -after- he died ffs 😆
thorn delta
Yes exactly 🙂 but is that a Dutch thing?
nova talon
(I mean not just dutch people obvs, but generally)
voting for a dead man is pretty unique I think though, no?
thorn delta
Yes that might be a first. Almost forgot about those times.
gaunt sinew
voting for a dead man is pretty unique I think though, no?
I think it's happened before. Maybe not in NL.
nova talon
Not sure if it has happaned on a national scale before, I think generally smaller scale but might be wwrong (quick search got me this https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00344893.2022.2071972 )
I try not to be conspirational but Russia and the western European right is making me a little paranoid, ngl.. (e.g. https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/de-banden-tussen-pvv-en-rusland-zijn-sterker-dan-gedacht )
tribal yacht
I certainly don't think there was any meddling etc from Russia (I haven't seen any suggestion of it, don't think it's necessarily what you're suggesting either), but yeah the pro-Russsianness of these far-right parties, trips to Moscow, etc etc, certainly should make us wonder about extent of Russian influence on PVV, whether any $$ in there or help, etc
nova talon
No I don't mean meddling in the elections but yeah, the $$ or other backing. We know they also wooed bidet in the past
I also think they are probably pushing for disbanding the EU because I think that would be in their interest
proud prawn
If we saw Russian influence it would be through FvD
proud prawn
I do believe most of it is ideed a simplistic protest vote and many don’t realiz...
30% if you count FvD, Ja21 and some change
nova talon
Even higher if you look purely at anti immigrant policies, because omtzigt also wants a (totally unrealistic) annual cap
The LGBTQIA+ situation is also dire, if you look from that perspective you'd also have to include Denk
naive zealot
Just my 2 cents: after Rutte's exit, Wilders became THE household name in Dutch politics. He's recognisable, and people feel like they know what he's about. Considering the long lineage of Rutte, and even Balkenende (4 cabinets), I think some people might have voted Wilders simply because he's a familiar face and the other candidates don't have as big of a profile. I just hope Wilders will prove that he is only suitable for the opposition, where he doesn't have to take responsibility for any policies and can just complain without consequence
tribal yacht
If we saw Russian influence it would be through FvD
Yes, this one's much more comically obvious
thorn delta
The rowdy crowd he attracts will probably ruin it for him. Then again, Dion Graus is not behind bars but still there as a member of parliament 😬
nova talon
Imo he prob also came in on the housing ticket. Housing was a big deal (tm) in this election and pvv want to prioritise "dutch" (whatever that means to him because it sure isn't my neighbour Ali or Mohammed with a dutch passport) peopl in the social housing sector and stop NOx limitations on building etc
sleek topaz
I'm curious how much of this, once we see more detailed election study/survey da...
Given the last second polling surge I think this is a particularly "on a whim" protest vote combined with a strong bandwagon
sleek topaz
To the extent other factors mattered they were mainly in context of the bandwagon & sudden increase in media coverage - otherwise it would have manifested in polling for a much longer time
somber crane
Forecast suggests PVV will get more seats, now at 37 seats, with D66 down once more to 9 seats.
Voters who voted for PVV in 2023 voted for ___ in 2021.
and voters who voted for PVV in 2021 voted for ___ in 2023.
upbeat depot
NSC (Omtzigt) has said he won't govern with PVV because they don't share his vie...
Not sure if its mentioned by omtzigt already went back on that promise
Something along the lines of “the people have voted and now we must work to make the country governable, even if that means stepping over some shadows”
somber crane
“Wij zijn bereid om verantwoordelijkheid te nemen in het nieuwe kabinet, beschik...
Oh yea, see here.
also:
"We zijn van ver gekomen. De functie elders is in Den Haag komend jaar"
Omtzigt dad joke.
upbeat depot
If we saw Russian influence it would be through FvD
They’re not meddling, but there are ties between Russians and the PVV
Which i guess (as somewhat indicated by the article linked above) is probably less of a “directly influenced by Russia” (as with the FvD( and more of a “We have some views Russia also likes, so lets not waste that connection” thing
somber crane
FvD is the unironically spreading Russian MH17 hoax conspiracies party.
Whereas Wilders has visited Russia and said "how wonderfully patriotic they are." (a while back of course)
somber crane
Whereas Wilders has visited Russia and said "how wonderfully patriotic they are....
proud prawn
the one area where wilders views on foreign policy will cause the most problems will be israel palestine
somber crane
Because it will cause us to get terrorist attacked?
proud prawn
Because it will cause us to get terrorist attacked?
yeah pretty much
somber crane
I mean, if we do get terrorist attacked, you've just handed the next election to PVV.
proud prawn
did baudet do a speech or something?
somber crane
did baudet do a speech or something?
Last night?
proud prawn
yeah
somber crane
I believe the Forum election night party was cancelled earlier in the evening on the advice of the security services, so there wasn't an event.
After the 15 year old antifa bar incident two days ago and the Ukrainian incident in Gent a couple weeks back.
somber crane
yeah
Yea.
The FvD candidate MPs will not meet tonight to await the election results together with members, as in previous years. A spokesperson said that the risks had been weighed up in consultation with government services and its own security guards, but that the party did not dare to do it. The campaign day ends at the end of the afternoon for the party in Sportcafé Zuid in Amsterdam, without party leader Thierry Baudet.
Baudet was hit twice on the head with a beer bottle at an election meeting of his party in a café on Monday evening. Since then, Baudet has had additional consultations with the government about his security. The suspected perpetrator, an underage boy, is still in custody. At the end of October, Baudet was also hit on the head when he went to give a lecture in Ghent.
polar goblet
Geert Wilders looks like the bad guy from the Lorax
proud prawn
i just realized "holding a paper incorrectly" is the nexus to all of this
gaunt sinew
i just realized "holding a paper incorrectly" is the nexus to all of this
Which would not have happened if she hadn't got Covid. I think @somber crane mentioned it before.
So really we need to know who gave it to her and punish that person.
somber crane
i just realized "holding a paper incorrectly" is the nexus to all of this
Yea, functie elders.
(For foreign audience, Omtzigt was proving to be an “issue” in the CDA coalition negotiations in 2021) so the coalition formation papers called for him to “function elsewhere” (give him a nonsense job to get him out of the limelight).
Also why Omtzigt left the CDA and spent the intervening two years up until two months ago as an independent.
lone vale
In case anyone needed a summary of what the PVV victory could mean for NL, a thread: https://vxtwitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612
nova talon
He prmised a binding nexit referendum, so that's going to be intriguing
near sable
I genuinely do not understand this
Then again i live in a liberal progressive delusion
somber crane
I genuinely do not understand this
I saw on the television (think it was NOS) that in a “student election” (at universities), the poll showed that the top two parties were PVV and Forum.
Admittedly counterbalance this by saying that the actual turnout by young people was pretty bad.
lone vale
Wasn't it middle schoolers and vocational education students that are still under 18?
somber crane
Wasn't it middle schoolers and vocational education students that are still unde...
Ah, maybe it was, probably.
gaunt sinew
Predictions for Nexit? https://vxtwitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1727657294127608255
upbeat depot
Whereas Wilders has visited Russia and said "how wonderfully patriotic they are....
And regularly guest lectures at moscow state university
upbeat depot
yeah pretty much
Questionable pure speculation, possibly if he doesnt tone it down, if there’s a terrorist attack it could be that they wont go for the NL in general but wilders himself
Which is not any better/worse (i suppose for prevention purposes better), but a significant difference in terms of effect
Especially with how unprotected dutch politicians (even geert) are by international standards
F.ex mark (while obviously not the same threat level as geert) i’ve seen walk through the Hague with protection at least a couple 100m away (out of eyesight at least) even around the time when there were news stories about supposed plots on his life
somber crane
F.ex mark (while obviously not the same threat level as geert) i’ve seen walk th...
I was under the impression that his security considerations have been pretty strict since the early 2000s?
He lives in a government safe house and protection agents protect there and follow him everywhere.
(Wilders, to be clear)
somber crane
The Kiesraad is officially reporting the results.
I don't know why I expected her to arrive any other way lol.
At 10:30, so in about an hour, the Kamervoorzitter (parliament chairperson) will host the fractievoorzitters (party chairpersons) for exploratory talks on cabinet formation.
lone vale
https://nos.nl/artikel/2499072-fractievoorzitter-yesilgoz-vvd-niet-in-kabinet-mogelijk-wel-gedoogsteun
Majority coalition won't happen now, I guess. VVD has said they won't join any coalition, and are only willing to provide tacit (is that the right word?) support to a centre-right coalition. So at best we'll get something similar to Rutte I, where VVD and CDA had support from PVV.
proud prawn
its belgium time
upbeat depot
I was under the impression that his security considerations have been pretty str...
Yeah
But still not comparable to some other countries’ presidents
somber crane
Here's some breakdown of the demographics of the election.
Party popularity by age and sex.
Education and income level.
Religious belief/lack of, and church attendance.
Work status.
Smoking addiction.
How good they see their finances.
Covid-19 vaccination status.
Preferred newspaper.
Preferred news program.
Preferred current affairs program.
Preferred opinion magazine.
Social media accounts.
Websites they view at least once a week.
What supermarket they shop at.
There's also kinda stupid ones about the cars they drive and what hobby magazines they read.
somber crane
There's also kinda stupid ones about the cars they drive and what hobby magazine...
But for what its worth, GL-PvdA would be the largest party if we restricted suffrage to only Donald Duck readers.
proud prawn
There's also kinda stupid ones about the cars they drive and what hobby magazine...
Which one is the car one? There was a TikTok memeing about voters and cars so now I'm curious
somber crane
Which one is the car one? There was a TikTok memeing about voters and cars so no...
I didn’t include it cos I thought it was too stupid.
somber crane
But here they are since you’re interested.
@proud prawn
(Internet went bad. Sorry for delay)
gaunt sinew
So if you see someone in an Audi, BMW or Mecedes, there's a 2/3 to 3/4 chance they're rightwing. Shocking news.
somber crane
So if you see someone in an Audi, BMW or Mecedes, there's a 2/3 to 3/4 chance th...
And if someone is in a Citroen, there’s a 50% chance they are left wing.
somber crane
Probably has more to do with this though.
The car thing is a stupid metric, 
Unless you want to do (very poorly) targeted politically motivated car keying.
sleek topaz
TBH from a maximizing harm perspective, car keying is much more effective against expensive cars (not like Citroens have much resale value anyways, and even in percentage terms an affordable car depreciates way less from superficial scratches) so this information disproportionately benefits left wing activists
somber crane
proud prawn
so omtzigt doesn't want to start negotiations now
vvd doesn't want to govern
gvda won't form a coalition with pvv
has the hague found a way to fall again while falling through itself
somber crane
https://vxtwitter.com/LamyaeA/status/1729905340408316342?s=20
Met voorrang werkt aan hervormingen op het gebied van goed bestuur (hoofdstuk 1 van ons programma). Hierbij horen ook regels omtrent de integriteit en transparantie van politici en de structuur van politieke partijen;
Seems like one of his red lines is that PVV is made a member's party.
Dilan's letter to Plasterk.
proud prawn
(zoals godsdienstvrijheid, vrijheid van meningsuiting, censuurverbod)
this leads to another question - what is wilders without anti-islam, it's the entire reason of being for the PVV, wilders can't take it out without throwing away the core of his ideas and party, but can't govern while banning islam
somber crane
She also ruled out facilitating a PvdA/GL coalition.
somber crane
> (zoals godsdienstvrijheid, vrijheid van meningsuiting, censuurverbod)
this le...
I could see reducing immigration in general without any focus on religion would be enough of a dog bone for PVVers.
grizzled locust
Other points from the party guide were a bit off as well. 10.000 extra police? Sure. But from where. It's not like there is a hiring stop at the moment. Same with the healthcare bit
somber crane
Omtzigt without any reference to Wilders put a 50k ceiling on immigrants entering the Netherlands, as one of his standpoints
frozen cove
One is to wonder disappointedly about the lack of success for counterprogramming against the cultural chauvinism Wilders rode in high on the wave of re: fearmongering about Muslim immigrants, or using the fiscal burden hypothesis disingenuously suggesting migrants are a threat to the European welfare state etc.
This creates a scenario in which Wilders' opposition need to reform their political strategy to program more heavily against this sort of xenophobic indoctrination
somber crane
D66 goes down to 9, SP are therefore now on 5 seats.
SP got an extra seat because it received 80 votes. Every vote counts.
38 candidates of the 150 received enough preference votes to be elected in their own right, however due to most of their positions on the list they would have been elected anyways, only Daniëlle Hirsch (#27, PvdA/GL) needed the preference votes to be elected.
somber crane
SP got an extra seat because it received 80 votes. Every vote counts.
The TK will meet tomorrow in its old composition, to decide if it will be necessary to hold a recount of the election.
proud prawn
(the irony of this i assume has not been lost)
somber crane
"Omtzigt: Ik zie geen partijprogramma's die grondrechten aanvallen."
"I don't see any party programs that attack fundamental rights"
"Ook al zou je de grondrechten uit de grondwet halen, dan zijn ze alsnog afdwingbaar via deze verdragen", aldus Omtzigt. Als je die rechten echt wil afpakken, moet je volgens de NSC-leider dus ook uit de EU en de Raad van Europa stappen. "Dit heb ik in geen enkel partijprogramma gezien." Daarmee lijkt Omtzigt dus een geitenpaadje te hebben gevonden voor samenwerking met de PVV.
Since because you can't actually get rid of fundamental rights unless you leave the EU and Council of Europe, and PVV's party programme doesn't call for this, Omtzigt is saying that the concerns over fundamental rights/rule of law are overstated and is opening the way for NSC cooperation with PVV.
vestal lynx
Almost 30% of the vote if I understand this properly?
grizzled locust
we have... 151 seats I think
150
so yeah, 43 is close to 30%
seriously looking at moving to Belgium tbh
somber crane
Two rounds of voting were required. There was no winner in the first round of voting. In the second round there were 146 valid votes. The winner needed at least 74 votes. Bosma won with 75 votes.
grizzled locust
Yeah, no way this is going to last 4 years like thid
sleek topaz
Easy come, easy go (usually the case with polling surges/bandwagons)
somber crane
WSJ article about the coalition negotiations, red shading not done by me.
I was listening to one of the political podcasts where they were discussing the negotiations, I'll paraphrase it but the general idea was that:
Whilst some in the leadership of (some of the) parties clearly don't like the situation (VVD especially), the mathematics are such that to VVD, NSC and BBB see a much greater ability to see their party programs implemented with PVV, than engaging with PvdA-GL, where their whole swathes of the party programs are diametrically opposed (and both sides would have to essentially park their policies in those areas to govern together)
Not least to forget, that as PvdA-GL is a new creation, even countenancing coalition with "the centre-right" or "right" is guaranteed to just splinter the fusion.
somber crane
Article about left wing radicalisation since the election result and relating to Palestine and other issues.
somber crane
Yea, even if it will take a while, PVV are going to be in government.
Whilst a lot of time, parties always suffer electorally when they enter coalition, VVD particularly is just haemorrhaging voters due to it refusing to enter coalition, it’s inevitable that they’re going to break.
somber crane
Any chance Wilders gets to block this?
Theoretically, yes.
The transfer still requires a arms export license from MinBZ (foreign ministry), so it's still not completed.
"We don't send our money and Defense materiél like F16s to Ukraine but keep it for our own Armed Forces."
sleek topaz
Practically, though?
somber crane
But, both VVD and NSC are in support of supporting Ukraine, and BBB just cares about tractors.
It's gonna be one of those things that PVV will probably just have to accept in order to get into government.
PVV is unlikely to make already tricky coalition negotiations harder by demanding random shit that it really doesn't care about, they'll most likely be willing to sacrifice everything else if they can get a sharp change to migrant policy.
gaunt sinew
https://vxtwitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1738524225562980763?s=20
Who chose those colours? Particularly the PVV one.
proud prawn
Who chose those colours? Particularly the PVV one.
https://x.com/EuropeElects/status/1738532867045462482?s=20 i think they're sorted by european parliament groups
sleek topaz
Yep, the groups are listed below each party's name. They mainly do this to give other European wonks (the account's main audience) an idea of where the parties might stand
upbeat depot
Whilst a lot of time, parties always suffer electorally when they enter coalitio...
Playing the long game i suppose
Suffer now, get in opposition, be back in a decade
somber crane
Playing the long game i suppose
Something like 80% of the VVD party membership want a coalition with PVV though.
upbeat depot
Something like 80% of the VVD party membership want a coalition with PVV though.
Yeah
But still
somber crane
remote mica
https://vxtwitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/1742872768964600038
It was never just about Islam
Not that I find singling out Islam good
cedar fable
https://vxtwitter.com/elonmusk/status/1742826319849684997
It's probably worth archiving these on archive.org and archive.today. Due to API changes, change the "twitter.com" part of the URL to "x.com" otherwise it won't save properly.
somber crane
Timmermans might be going back to Europe.
The Labour Burgemeester (Mayor) of Amsterdam (Rotterdam) is stepping down this Autumn.
somber crane
That's Halsema right?
Whoopsy, mixed up my dams, he’s the mayor of Rotterdam.
me_rn: 
grizzled locust
:)
gaunt sinew
Whoopsy, mixed up my dams, he’s the mayor of Rotterdam.
I think someone argued against his appointment because ‘he still slept in Ajax pyjamas’…
So it’s not such a strange mistake.
grizzled locust
Sensitive subject in Rotterdam indeed
somber crane
Wilders and the PVV have withdrawn a some of their bills in order to try to appease the other parties in coalition negotiations.
But they haven’t withdrawn a bill that they’ve proposed since 2014, that would give the ability of the Dutch government to deport criminals from the Caribbean islands of the Kingdom of the Netherlands from the European Netherlands, after their sentence.
Obviously, the concept of deporting a Dutch citizen from one part of the Kingdom to another part of the Kingdom is clearly against the Constitution.
grizzled locust
it's not the only thing but hey, we voted for them apparently.
somber crane
somber crane
https://x.com/boerburgerb/status/1744321895317618793
The bills that have been withdrawn are:
-
Bill for Administrative Detention Act (34 747) (submitted June 27, 2017)
-
Bill for a law on the prohibition of certain Islamic expressions (35 039) (submitted September 21, 2018)
-
Bill for a law to extend grounds for exclusion from the right to vote and banning multiple nationality for certain office holders (35 144) (submitted February 15, 2019)
somber crane
The bills that have been withdrawn are:
1. Bill for Administrative Detention Ac...
The first bill would have allowed the government to administratively detain those it deems to pose a potential threat to national security, such as jihadists and jihad sympathisers, where there is no legal basis for their detention otherwise.
The second bill would have placed a ban on the niqab and burqa in public spaces, and ban the printing, sale and distribution of the Quran.
The third bill would have excluded anyone who has a second nationality from being the Minister-President, a minister, a state secretary, a member of the Staten Generaal, a member of a municipal council, a member of a Staten Provinciaal, a member of the Council of State, a member of the Court of Audit, a member of a Provincial government, a member of a Water Board, an alderman, the National Ombudsman, a King's Commissioner or a mayor.
remote mica
@somber crane
@grizzled locust
"The Islamic stuff, which is the vast bulk of what I've discussed for years, I don't really mean that. I DO really mean the internal exile of black criminals."
"My anti-Islamism wasn't a cover for my racism."
grizzled locust
Geert has always been extremely careful in his wording
remote mica
Geert has always been extremely careful in his wording
Please elaborate
grizzled locust
attacking the belief and not the people for instance
so he's always been against Islam aside from a small slipup with the "minder marokkanen"
I don't know where i'm going with this point anymore
remote mica
attacking the belief and not the people for instance
Well that's what he says.
But yeah "oh huh it just so happens that very few Muslims are ethnically Dutch. Not racist though."
grizzled locust
it's all been pretty overt racism sure. Unfortunately it's been mostly within legal limits for the Netherlands :|
remote mica
it's all been pretty overt racism sure. Unfortunately it's been mostly within le...
The well known at this point Libertarian Trojan Horse
grizzled locust
His minder marokkanen thing has been upheld by the courts though, as that was insulting a group of people based on ethnicity.
remote mica
His minder marokkanen thing has been upheld by the courts though, as that was in...
I imagine short of neo Nazism one could say basically anything in the Netherlands
grizzled locust
nah, it's not that bad.
but our law makes a difference of insulting a religion vs insulting believers of the religion. The first is fine, the second isn't
somber crane
Geert’s twitter hacked? 
Clearly trying to seem to be turning from his suspect past views on Russia, I suppose.
remote mica
https://vxtwitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/1745832719659982877
I'm seeing some speculate this is about rhetorical support only. I haven't heard him say anything different than no more military aid for Ukraine
gaunt sinew
He says respect, not support.
remote mica
He says *respect*, not support.
Yeah it's just words
grizzled locust
yup
carefully chosen words :)
for all the bad things, he's a true politician alright
sleek topaz
As far as I've observed Dutch politics, this seems like an issue where his views could quickly upend his popularity surge
remote mica
As far as I've observed Dutch politics, this seems like an issue where his views...
Well, but his views have been widely known for years, though, right?
grizzled locust
Heck, it's why he has seats in the Parliament in the first place.
grizzled locust
New issue: The immigrant spreading law is being supported by VVD and Wilders is not a fan apparently
nova talon
Do we know whether his family were involved in NIFO (Nederlandsch-Indisch Fascisten Organisatie) at all? I remember some groene articles about it absolutely ages ago, but nothing super tangible. I am just as curious about same with the other one (bidet).
somber crane
Do we know whether his family were involved in NIFO (Nederlandsch-Indisch Fascis...
I read back to the Groene articles from 2009, they never made a claim that his family were involved in Indisch fascist groups.
The articles are just describing the spread of Dutch fascism to the Indisch community in Indonesia, and then talking about his family history in Indonesia in the same article.
His grandfather was a colonial administrator, but ended up getting fired for debts and money troubles (allegations of fraud and swindling), and sent back to Europe.
This happened in the early 1930s, but by the end of the war he was made director of Fort Honswijk, the prison for NSB, Dutch SS men and Indisch fascists, and ultimately made a career for himself in leadership positions in the prison service.
Which would be very weird if he had a fascist past in the Indies, you know having him be in charge of holding Nazis and fascists in prison, it would make no sense.
nova talon
I read back to the Groene articles from 2009, they never made a claim that his f...
No, I never intended to come across like they were, I meant they spoke about his family
somber crane
Ah yea, his grandfather was a screw up.
His father was one of 8 children that his grand father more or less abandoned with his grandmother in Indonesia for a couple years.
grizzled locust
pfoe
I mean, I really don't like the politics Geert is peddling
but death threats, that's just horrible
remote mica
but death threats, that's just horrible
Hasn't that been something he's facing for like 15 years which is why he's under permanent police protection?
And yeah, his politics are abominable, don't get me wrong
somber crane
Hasn't that been something he's facing for like 15 years which is why he's under...
Yup.
Lives in a government provided safehouse.
grizzled locust
Hasn't that been something he's facing for like 15 years which is why he's under...
He hasn't made himself loved by the general keyboard warriors no
remote mica
He hasn't made himself loved by the general keyboard warriors no
If he had said all the same things he has about Islam but about Christianity, yeah he'd be getting death threats and wouldn't have a political career
grizzled locust
I completely agree with that statement unfortunately
remote mica
I completely agree with that statement unfortunately
Why unfortunately?
grizzled locust
well, I'd wish that people would just be not sending death threats regardless of ideoligy.
and that it doesn't matter which groups you target, you're getting threatened by some people who should really think longer before hitting send
like, whatever happened to be good to each other
and fight with arguments
we supposedly evolved to make more use of our brain, but it's looking less and less like it
remote mica
well, I'd wish that people would just be not sending death threats regardless of...
Well yes of course, also that "I have huge receptive audience to my hate speech because the target is Islam, as opposed to another religion"
Both are unfortunate
grizzled locust
jup
call it naive, but I hoped we were beyond this by now
then again, it's kinda hard to ignore 4000 years of this
remote mica
What's this referring to?
https://vxtwitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/1747678462729474363?t=5LxvX5mnJRDa7S5FHf-czw&s=19
grizzled locust
there's a proposal for a law to force municipalities to take in asylum seekers
because it's been very lopsided in the recent years
and Wilders want's it completely off the table because he wants no refugees or migrants at all basically
and VVD, which they are trying to go into a coalition with, have supported the proposal
somber crane
because it's been very lopsided in the recent years
Yea, the law is to prevent another Ter Apel situation.
sleek topaz
As an aside the tweet seems to have generated a bunch of memes making fun of the Dutch language
gaunt sinew
As an aside the tweet seems to have generated a bunch of memes making fun of the...
Yes, that's actually how I first found out about it. Usually I can see the fun in it, but this time I'm not really sure why.
sleek topaz
"We hebben een serieus probleem" does sound pretty funny when you mix it with English. Mostly drunk/slurred.
gaunt sinew
I can usually turn off Dutch-brain to see it, but this one defeats me.
remote mica
Yes, that's actually how I first found out about it. Usually I can see the fun i...
Yeah I found it from a left leaning account ridiculing it I think the first thing is "let's see what Wilders said that's dumb" then "hm this has enough similarities to English that we think that makes him look ridiculous" and unless someone asks Dutch people about what it means they're not going to know because he calls it "the coercion law" which is of course right wing jargon that foreigners are going to be ignorant of
remote mica
I can usually turn off Dutch-brain to see it, but this one defeats me.
Idk Dutch so for me it does look like strange English
remote mica
"We hebben een serieus probleem" does sound pretty funny when you mix it with En...
Yeah, if you read it with a certain pronunciation it sounds like a parody of English
vestal lynx
Old English and Frisian are quite mutually intelligible (I think there was a video shared in #1091057164510040245 showing this), and from Frisian to Dutch there isn't that much of a difference.
There's a reason why English speakers are told that Dutch is probably the easier language for them to learn (:
vestal lynx
Fast Sara
vestal lynx
And this video goes quite deeply into analysing that clip precisely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brTMWgE-m6w
remote mica
remote mica
Highest poll result for any party ever by Maurice de Hond, apparently.
de Hond is a pollster?
somber crane
de Hond is a pollster?
Yep.
somber crane
de Hond is a pollster?
Last time any party had that many seats was in the 1970s and 1980s, CDA and PvdA.
remote mica
Last time any party had that many seats was in the 1970s and 1980s, CDA and PvdA...
Those parties are a heck of a lot more traditional than this one
proud prawn
a bit of an aside - with the government policies being such an undefined mess, the large companies are very much not enjoying it
remote mica
somber crane
grizzled locust
not that surprising
trying to come up with a majority rule with one of the most polarising parties in the Netherlands
nova talon
The doom scenario is that they keep failing and their % votes will keep increasing because of 'disgruntled people taken in by populism' until they can form one without another large party, like just bbb or whatever
proud prawn
The doom scenario is that they keep failing and their % votes will keep increasi...
last poll iirc has pvv with 49 seats
nova talon
last poll iirc has pvv with 49 seats
exactly. It might be in their best interest for it not to work this time, wait for the population to increase their 'big mad no one will work with the poooooor extreme right' victim complex and swoop in with a 50+% in the next election
upbeat depot
Those parties are a heck of a lot more traditional than this one
PvdA also wasn’t that traditional back when it first got big but yeah
Still traditional in policy because it had to form coalitions with the other pillars
remote mica
PvdA also wasn’t *that* traditional back when it first got big but yeah
More "Red"?
upbeat depot
More "Red"?
Yeah
I mean they came from a merger of parties, one of them was the social democratic workers party (back when that still meant aiming for a socialist revolution through reform) which got around 23% of the votes in the decades before the war
So obviously they had some more left left wing members
But of course the other 2 parties were liberal and progressive religious so overall the party was a little less extreme than that
remote mica
But of course the other 2 parties were liberal and progressive religious so over...
Reading where Wikipedia said they had a big New Left contingent around about 1970, when that was popular globally, however, by like '89 or '90 they had gotten into privatization
upbeat depot
Reading where Wikipedia said they had a big New Left contingent around about 197...
Ah yeah definitely
I’m thinking more 40’s-50’s when they were arguably socialist
Over time (probably linked pretty closely to the bettering economic situation) that became less and less the case
remote mica
I’m thinking more 40’s-50’s when they were arguably socialist
Well, time frame here is about New Left era and, yeah, the New Left wasn't impressed with privatization
somber crane
There was also quite a lot of stuff going on at the time over that time period.
upbeat depot
Well, time frame here is about New Left era and, yeah, the New Left wasn't impre...
Yeah i know, mentioned this period cause the PvDA also reached 50 seats back then (and since then throughout the 60s/70s from 40-50)
Having low amounts of seats per party is honestly a relatively new thing in the NL if you look at historical electoral results
Often we had a couple parties absolutely dominating
somber crane
The development of Flevopolder, independence of Suriname, development of a lot of the welfare system, stuff like that.
upbeat depot
Gas
remote mica
Often we had a couple parties absolutely dominating
So what happened?
upbeat depot
So what happened?
The gradual breakdown of pillarisation mostly
As a result also of the rising economic situation of the netherlands
remote mica
The gradual breakdown of pillarisation mostly
Where may I read more about that?
remote mica
As a result also of the rising economic situation of the netherlands
And how would that decimate two party system?
upbeat depot
Well it wasnt 2, more like 3/4
upbeat depot
Where may I read more about that?
Would recommend the dutch wiki with a translate extension, one second
(And then under Netherlands)
Quite a unique regional thing tbh
@remote mica the summary is, there were some groups. Catholics/Socialists/Protestants/Liberals, each had their own political party, newspapers, sports organisations, (bakeries), etc
Especially before WW2, after WW2 some parties tried to change that (and formed the Pvda) but then the pvda just kinda became the socialist pillar again
remote mica
The gradual breakdown of pillarisation mostly
So, there were old pillars or factions of society which were consolidated and the consolidation has broken down?
upbeat depot
So when those broke down, people started voting for more/different parties
upbeat depot
So, there were old pillars or factions of society which were consolidated and th...
Yeah pretty much
somber crane
ARP was the party of the Protestant group, KVP was the party of the Catholic group, for example.
Pillarisation was seen as having been overcome when they merged to become the CDA that is still around today.
upbeat depot
Yeah it slowly started to stop being a thing in the mid 60s, but cause people take a while to switch parties which they’ve voted for their entire life
Obviously took a bit longer for that change to happen
somber crane
upbeat depot
Ah yes the always fucked up looking graphical way of showing dutch societal particularities
somber crane
lol
upbeat depot
They should do one that’s somehow modified to party size, seems like a pain to figure out how but probably more interesting
Probably something with i guess a fully filled graph and then the percentage width occupied is seats
somber crane
Ye, would be a cool project.
Dutch parties are quite splinter happy, even since the “coming together” after pillarisation.
NSC is a splinter from CDA that is around Omtzigt’s personal popularity, DENK is a splinter from PvdA around having a political party particularly for the Turkish/migrant communities views where they diverge from the progressive left.
JA21 is a split from FvD, because some in the racist party got slightly uncomfortable with their party being racist.
I’d be unsurprised if we saw a splinter faction from the PvdA/GL fusion as that project further develops.
sleek topaz
Ah yes the always fucked up looking graphical way of showing dutch societal part...
The Hague metro
grizzled locust
Yeah, there are like 20 parties involved now? Some with 1 or 2 seats
somber crane
Yeah, there are like 20 parties involved now? Some with 1 or 2 seats
15 parties with seats since November, down from 17 in 2021.
Technically, 1 of those would be PvdA-GL becoming one party rather than 2, but then NSC is a new formation. So two less parties.
remote mica
https://vxtwitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/1753444295632134334
Smh. I don't think you'll find even GOP bringing this up commonly
Anything in particular bring this on for him other than I suppose his generalized hate of multiculturalism?
somber crane
Anything in particular bring this on for him other than I suppose his generalize...
PVV has getting rid of NPO in its party program, as best as I remember.
remote mica
PVV has getting rid of NPO in its party program, as best as I remember.
"It has Islamic propaganda in there"
And I imagine they ran some disparaging stories about Wilders
Is that pretty much it?
somber crane
"It has Islamic propaganda in there"
And I imagine they ran some disparaging st...
Pretty much.
remote mica
PVV has getting rid of NPO in its party program, as best as I remember.
I've been told that PVV platform is pretty much 100% his personal ideas
somber crane
A couple days ago he tweeted that Dilan was “sour Dilan.”
You know, not the woman he’s literally sitting across the table from at formation negotiations.
The next round of negotiations was probably a little awkward.
remote mica
A couple days ago he tweeted that Dilan was “sour Dilan.”
Lends credence to the theory that the idea is to not even form a coalition, to build up frustration and come back with the message "don't settle, we don't even need a coalition", to try for more than 50% somewhere down the line
somber crane
It’s in PVV’s interest for it to fail, unfortunately.
As long as they can spin it as it not being their fault, that is, they’ll see another substantial jump in their seat count.
remote mica
It’s in PVV’s interest for it to fail, unfortunately.
Coalition partners, from their point of view, can only "cramp their style"
remote mica
As long as they can spin it as it not being their fault, that is, they’ll see an...
Idk, but I don't see how childish social media behavior does that
somber crane
I've been told that PVV platform is pretty much 100% his personal ideas
To be fair, a “democratic” PVV would be much more dangerous.
remote mica
*To be fair*, a “democratic” PVV would be much more dangerous.
Please elaborate
somber crane
The lack of party democracy has prevented the PVV from being taken over by the party “membership.”
remote mica
The lack of party democracy has prevented the PVV from being taken over by the p...
Ok but, what specifically are you referring to, neo Nazi, pro Russian stuff?
somber crane
The reason he’s the only member, is to allow him to keep a tight control of the direction of the party. If its direction was determined by the average PVV voter, I suspect that it would be much more similar to FvD.
Batshit insane, openly full of unironic Nazis, conspiracy freaks, wappies and 4chan-type alt right young people.
He’s said awful stuff during his time as a politician, no doubt, however, I think the unspoken reason he refuses to budge on party democracy is that he’s well aware that he can’t do that without handing “the movement” over to these people. Which would be quite dangerous.
Around the time of the election, some of the parties were using it as a criticism of the party, that it’s not democratic, that they couldn’t work with a party without a “democratic membership” structure, but in some ways it’s kinda for the best that the average PVVers views has to be tempered through Wilders.
remote mica
He’s said awful stuff during his time as a politician, no doubt, *however*, I th...
A big part of his stance is "oh yeah well of course I oppose Islam but ISRAEL showed me the way on this, therefore I do support the Jewish people" but of course if the party went in avowedly antisemitic direction that's not going to fly
somber crane
Yep. The average time in parliament by MP is ludicrously skewed for PVV.
Or well, I suppose was until this recent election anyways.
The average PVV MP had like 10 years in the Tweede Kamer, if I recall correctly. He selects the candidates, if they ever step out of line he pulls them.
somber crane
Twitter
Twitter
Twitter
Wilders: The voter has spoken. And wants a different policy. So I think that the commitment of the parties who are now negotiating should really be to come out of it together. That should really succeed. Because that is what is best for the Netherlands!
Dilan: I totally agree 👍🏼
Lientje: Me too.
You know how it was reported that Plasterk gave the four party leaders homework to do as the talks continue?
I wonder if one of the tasks was to be nice to each other on Twitter. 
proud prawn
somber crane
somber crane
https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6286503/oud-premier-dries-van-agt-op-93-jarige-leefti...
Didn’t realise at the time
But when they said Dries van Agt died “hand in hand” with his wife I thought it was a reference to him being surrounded by his family when he died.
Only realised it now, but given they were both in quite poor health, they chose to pass away together. Wonderful way to end it all, RIP of course.
near sable
Are the coalition about to collapse or what
my dutch sucks so im missing things in the coverage
somber crane
my dutch sucks so im missing things in the coverage
Omtzigt and his Nieuw Sociaal Contract party have pulled out of formation talks.
But, in their response to the informateur’s (Plasterk) report, they have also said they are prepared to support a PVV-VVD-BBB minority government, or an apolitical cabinet.
somber crane
But, in their response to the informateur’s (Plasterk) report, they have also sa...
So it seems like Omtzigt will see if they can form a minority government from the formation talks, and then we’ll see if NSC is prepared to support it, at least in terms of a confidence vote.
Plasterk’s report.
In the next couple weeks, we’ll see a new round of formation talks, now with just PVV-VVD-BBB.
In short, any hopes of a quick formation are probably dashed, we’re probably in for a long process.
Na het inzien van het eindverslag zei Omtzigt verder dat het een "goed idee" zou zijn als de drie overgebleven partijen BBB, PVV en VVD nu over een minderheidskabinet gaan praten. “Ze hebben kennelijk goed overlegd drie a vier dagen met zijn drieën".
After looking at the final report, Omtzigt went on to say that it would be a "good idea" if the three remaining parties BBB, PVV and VVD now start talking about a minority cabinet. "They apparently consulted well three to four days with the three of them."
near sable
Omtzigt and his Nieuw Sociaal Contract party have pulled out of formation talks.
thanks for the info! yeah i was aware the NSC pulled out, less so about plasterk's statement
somber crane
The weird thing is that Omtzigt said they came to an agreement on the rule of law/constitution.
And he blames differences on finances.
near sable
In the next couple weeks, we’ll see a new round of formation talks, now with jus...
curious if they're capable of setting aside their differences, my understanding is that they're pretty non trivial
somber crane
Obviously this is politics so they’ll always be telling us what makes them look best, but it’s a surprising area for them to be far apart on.
near sable
are the proceedings of the talks made public in any capacity
somber crane
Nah, one of Omtzigt’s criticisms of the process was that there was leakage of the talks though, and unhelpful posts on social media.
near sable
ah alright
somber crane
According to a podcast I listen to, WNL op Zondag, there was a couple bits of information that have been leaked.
near sable
im guessing they're having difficulties getting the PVV to compromise on anything
somber crane
They wanted the cabinet in place by April/May, Plasterk would be Min-President, whilst all the party leaders would remain in the TK.
Fleur Agema would be Health Minister, Mona Keijzer would be deputy PM and Minister EZK.
PVV would have 6 cabinet posts, VVD would have 4, NSC 3, and BBB 2.
near sable
yeah makes sense, not really sure there's been anything anything like this in european for a while now
it'd be interesting to see if public opinion collapses after they start floating major legislation
near sable
eh i get by alright, most broadcast coverage makes sense to me
im awful at the speaking/reading bit
somber crane
Ah fair.
Plasterk has advised that a new round of talks be set up, and that a new informateur be appointed.
Disagreeing on finances is an odd one though, I suppose it’s that PVV and BBB wanted to enhance spending that particularly benefits their base, working class Dutch (PVV) and farmers and rural people (BBB), whilst Omtzigt has always seemed a little tighter on government spending.
remote mica
Musk is also replying "!!"
https://twitter.com/Not_the_Bee/status/1758951954586456384?t=GHEWPZJeau058kHy0aRT_A&s=19
Twitter
Lot of right wing sensationalist accounts discussing it
Mainstream? Not that I've seen
gaunt sinew
Opera is the name of a conference center, a place that rents out rooms for events.
One group of Eritreans were celebrating new year, another group tried to get in to attack them.
Apparently the second group were anti-government Nhamedu Brigade.
somber crane
proud prawn
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitslagen/item/nsc-met-11...
whats the comparison with the last maurice de hond one
somber crane
whats the comparison with the last maurice de hond one
NSC down a bit, PVV on the same.
BBB up a bit, everyone else more or less the same.
remote mica
I believe they went back on their word and voted against funding for Ukraine today, too?
somber crane
I believe they went back on their word and voted against funding for Ukraine tod...
Yep, in the Eerste Kamer.
somber crane
Number of party members (horizontal axis) vs. seats in Tweede Kamer/equiv. to House of Representatives (vertical axis).
proud prawn
PVV is legally just Geert right
somber crane
PVV is legally just Geert right
Geert and Stichting Groep Wilders.
Stichting Groep Wilders is a foundation whose sole member is Geert.
It's Geert all the way down, basically, yea.
remote mica
He has form doing this, but Jesus Christ...
Yeah I was aware the party had antisemitic tendencies wasn't aware they were this open about it
somber crane
Twitter
NSC back at the table it seems, moved on to the idea of a “extra-parliamentary cabinet.”
chrome urchin
Completely unclear to me what the pros and cons of extra-parliamentary cabinet are
grizzled locust
pro: There actually will be a cabinet. Con: There is no majority to get things through the chamber without support from outside the ruling parties
gaunt sinew
With a majority cabinet and everyone toeing the party, and thus government, line, you can get things through Parliament because the agreements have essentially already been reached, concessions etc. have already been done etc.
With this, they’re going to have to find different majorities for every single topic and hammer everything out from scratch in the Chamber.
chrome urchin
sounds slow, seems like you have tit for tat which are hard to time (like you see in package deals in USA right now), OTOH it seems more democratic and ensures less power play (including by a party with only one member), increases responsibility of ministries and representatives, and allows for more candidates for the job. Exciting times! Although I want those who won in the election also to take responsibility (regardless of if I agree w/them or not), and it seems like this construction allows weaseling out of responsibility
proud prawn
grizzled locust
Hah
somber crane
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68557036
4 party leaders will remain in parliament.
It's gonna be Plasterk as Min-Pres, I think.
somber crane
“In this regard, I pointed out that those involved would do well to keep expressions in the (social) media about the formation to a minimum.”
chrome urchin
first thing he said is claim he wanted to be PM (suuure :P)
somber crane
Can't find a source for the image, but its the same style as the Euronews Ipsos polls, so I suppose it's maybe in a polling pdf of that.
PVV is up from nothing (0 seats) to 9 seats in the EU elections, but 22,4% is slightly smaller than the 23,5% (and 37 seats) that PVV got in the general elections in November, and quite out of line with national election polling which suggests PVV is around 50 seats and 30%.
Probably testament to a lot of people who were happy to support PVV's domestic policy not seeing the European election as anything other than a quasi vote on Nexit, a strong showing for the PVV in Europe would just be seen as supporting that, and obviously a lot of people have no interest in that, I guess?
grizzled locust
I hope not, nexit would be a huge loss for the Netherlands
somber crane
I hope not, nexit would be a huge loss for the Netherlands
Yea, I'm pretty sure the polling is quite lobsided against Nexit, 80% or something like that.
chrome urchin
here is source, it was discussed on Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/VoltEuropa/comments/1bjatqk/all_aboard_the_hype_train_next_station_brussels/
somber crane
here is source, it was discussed on Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/VoltEuropa/c...
Thanks for the source, I saw it posted on Twitter and reverse image searching wasn't helping.
chrome urchin
TinEye didn't work but Google Lens did
somber crane
Yea, I'm pretty sure the polling is quite lobsided against Nexit, 80% or somethi...
Was 50/50 around the time of 2016 British vote, obviously the Brexit sh*tshow showed a lot of people how much withdrawal damage the process actually does.
A lot of the “new PVVers” we’re happy to vote for PVV at the general election, on issues like immigration, housing, specific government policies (which are all issues the Torentje/Binnenhof has real power in), or to give the government a bloody nose, but these new PVVers probably don’t have the same anti-EU background as the old guard-PVVers
A lot of them are coming from VVD/centre right, so a lot of middle class/business types, who don’t want Brexit’s economic damage/trade barriers or to make it hard to go on their annual holidays to the rest of Europe.
somber crane
https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/peiling-europese-parlementsverkiezingen-winst-...
Still a big jump for PVV, but that probably accounts for the gap between their current national polling and their EU polling.
chrome urchin
loads of 'deplorables' who vote for PVV too
e.g. prev FvD (who's leader turned out as a nazi sympathist) now PVV
chrome urchin
I'm not super worried about PVV itself (populists seem to achieve very little whilst in office with stupid rhetoric which won't help e.g. economy) but about enablers and appeasement. Now, perhaps this 'programkabinet' allows others to keep enough distance from the extreme rhetoric, in order to ensure the appeasement won't work
Israel has an interesting way to enforce a new government after elections took place. The winner has a couple of weeks to form a new government, and if that fails, it is up to the runner up. That ensures you don't waste time on dumb rhetoric like the drama on Twitter/X like happened now. Instead you want to work towards the end result, while under pressure of time
I looked it up, 28 days... we are now 4 months after elections took place :/
gaunt sinew
The previous informant was basically a step back to look at the framework of a new government and now the new ones can lead negotiations on policy again.
somber crane
Any insights on this?
It’s not too uncommon for the negotiations to go through a couple informateur.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Nederlandse_(in)formateurs_en_verkenners
That this would be a part of coalition-ing (the other parties having to be comfortable with people you nominate) is kinda self-evident, odd that they so explicitly made an agreement on it.
near sable
The previous informant was basically a step back to look at the framework of a n...
Yeah this makes sense. I mostly curious if their SGP or CDA affiliation would have much influence on the outcome
somber crane
According to the article, it's likely that the cabinet will be largely VVD. Especially with the veto over cabinet appointments thing, you can't imagine that VVD or NSC would be comfortable with letting PVVers or BBBers into the important roles, especially given their dearth of administrative experience.
NSC at least has some old-CDAers. That article also suggests that some current CDAers have been approached. The current CDAers thing is interesting because they would be expelled from the party if they became a minister/state secretary according to CDA's statutes.
https://d14uo0i7wmc99w.cloudfront.net/CDA/Documenten/2018/Diverse/Statuten.pdf (page 23, article 114)
remote hill
very random question for Dutch people: have you listened to the AI version of Europapa but sang by Geert Wilders? and if yes what do u think? link to the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACH1zOLqoiE
grizzled locust
I don't even like the original, which probably means it has a high chance of winning
chrome urchin
it grew on me
grizzled locust
the only positive thing I can say is that Paul is getting some recognition I guess. And gabber in general
chrome urchin
Joost Klein gets no recognition?
I didn't even know the guy before this number lol
Klein's story behind it (concerning his youth), which the lyrics subtly touch on, and the lyrics being kind of friendly to interpret for non-Dutch and various winks to other languages/cultures, it being bottom-line both pop from 90s as well as an inclusive number. As for his youth I grew up with a disabled father, and my wife lost her father at a young age. So we can relate, and besides that the father role in a family is both undervalued and underused
grizzled locust
I don't know anything about Joost
this song is the first impression and for me it hasn't made me want to look into it further
chrome urchin
I haven't heard any of his other work
somber crane
to be honest, like most Eurovision songs, it gets way too much time on the airwaves (radio and television) to the point it is somewhat aggravating lol.
chrome urchin
"Conclusie 4
Het is vooral opvallend dat de jongste generatie jonge mannen én vrouwen gemiddeld conservatiever wordt" hence why stuff like bungalists gets normalized 🤮
somber crane
"Conclusie 4
Het is vooral opvallend dat de jongste generatie jonge mannen én vr...
In the StukRoodVlees article:
Onder meisjes is er een aanzienlijke groep die sterk progressief denkt (scores van 1, 2 of 3) maar ook een substantiële groep die juist conservatief denkt (scores van 5, 6 of 7). Bij jongens is deze tweedeling echter niet zo uitgesproken.
The articles are quite interesting, I found this particular passage pretty surprising.
To non-Dutch speakers following:
According to their research, the political views of young women are much more divided than the political views of young men.
nova talon
In the StukRoodVlees article:
> Onder meisjes is er een aanzienlijke groep die ...
I think this makes sense. The group in power can afford to have more 'middle' views. The group with less power either riles against the more powerful group or tries to appease it by siding with it for safety. I think that's pretty common in any power dynamic, no?
What I'd be really interested in is when we started measuring this (as a gender parity) and by how much this has changed over time. Because anecdotally, women in Millennial and X gens are also less conservative than similarly aged men.
(though apparently similar % of men and women voted for hitler so I guess the trad wife vibe has always been popular?!)
chrome urchin
girls het higher education than boys, young women are on average better educated
in NL that is
nova talon
girls het higher education than boys, young women are on average better educated
Does that change correlate to a divergence in voting behaviour? Like did women become better educated in the 70s when the voting (acc to the Volkskrant article) behaviour started to diverge?
Also better educated by which metric?
Secondary school diploma, number of BSc's?
(genuinely curious)
chrome urchin
more BSc and PhD yes
also more to highest levels of secondary school (VWO / Atheneum / Gymnasium)
don't remember if less dropouts among females
could be a factor
chrome urchin
as for your first question; the hypothesis is that educated people are more likely to vote progressive, and less educated (working class) has gone from traditional left (workers party etc) towards well alt right populism
nova talon
more BSc and PhD yes
We have equal PhD https://www.rathenau.nl/nl/werking-van-het-wetenschapssysteem/de-opmars-van-vrouwen-de-wetenschap
fewer jobs for them though
"Van de studenten die afstuderen aan de Nederlandse universiteiten is meer dan de helft vrouw (53,0%). Daarna neemt in elke functiecategorie het aandeel vrouwen (in fte) af. Bij de promovendi is 42,7% vrouw en bij universitair docenten 40,7%; van de universitair hoofddocenten is 28,6% vrouw en van de hoogleraren 20,9%. [..] " https://www.unesco.nl/nl/feiten-en-cijfers/percentage-vrouwelijke-hoogleraren-voor-het-eerst-boven-20
chrome urchin
yeah that is very specific though
also, mind you it says 'in fte'
that is the key here, women in NL are queens of part-time work
however... we shouldn't forget that household and the kids is also part of work, and unpaid too
we have a long way to go there, emancipation-wise, before that is equal
https://nos.nl/artikel/2515633-urenuitbreiding-moet-lerarentekort-helpen-bestrijden this item was cringe to read, tone deaf suggestion (though it isn't so much the writer's fault). My wife is part of the elementary school's participation council so I know a thing or two about it as well. Whole city has shortage of teachers. In our elementary school, there is literally only one teacher (also the only male, group 8) who's full-time teacher. All the other teachers are part-time and female. And almost all have more than 30 students. The one teacher who was full-time was my daughter's teacher. She got a big class this year, and couldn't bear it anymore. She's now working 4 days a week. Add to that all the research suggesting a 4-day work week is much better for your health than full-time, as well as the unpaid work teachers have to do in off hours and days off
nova talon
https://nos.nl/artikel/2515633-urenuitbreiding-moet-lerarentekort-helpen-bestrij...
Not sure I can find the paper, but when women become the dominant gender in a profession the renumeration for the work reduces and vice versa. For example when you got more male nurses, suddenly the pay on average started increasing. I am sure that teaching is similar, they'll pay them less now there are more women teachers. Mind you, a friend of mine was doing a teacher training programme and there was only one guy and he was 'seen as weird' by a lot of the other students. Like, people apparently question the motivation of a man to teach primary (secondary is fine because more 'subject'-oriented so more masculine maybe?)
somber crane
grizzled locust
Ah good ol scope creep strikes again
chrome urchin
telegraaf.nl so probably blown out of proportion
proud prawn
Twitter
grizzled locust
that wouldn't be surprising
near sable
That’s practically the general consensus
Idk we live in a stochastic vortex at this poibt
Surely the prediction just falls apart
remote mica
https://nltimes.nl/2024/05/06/draft-cabinet-deal-caught-camera-strict-asylum-pla...
Honestly I think the voters would eat this up
(I personally don't believe asylum is an issue, but a lot of voters do)
Thoughts?
grizzled locust
without asylum and open borders our agri would collapse I believe.
aside from a lot of european pacts regarding how asylum is handled and distributed
chrome urchin
agri would collapse and ASML and a lot of other companies
it is populism 101, including the very statements which got photographed. Like, straight from the populism handbook
remote mica
aside from a lot of european pacts regarding how asylum is handled and distribut...
So they're proposing something that couldn't deliver on from an economic or even legal angle?
remote mica
and any treaty can be broken most likely
Yeah I believe in here it was discussed as being technically possible just talking about that the treaties are major and probably wouldn't have greatly positive ramifications to put it mildly
grizzled locust
Yes. I mean, Wilders used to run on Nexit, but it seems that idea has run its course since the British showed us how that went :)
chrome urchin
thank you UK for your progressive regression
proud prawn
agri would collapse and ASML and a lot of other companies
making immigration policy easier was a key aspect of the "project beethoven" to keep asml in the netherlands
proud prawn
https://nltimes.nl/2024/05/06/draft-cabinet-deal-caught-camera-strict-asylum-pla...
unrelated: but it's impressive how it's the second time draft cabinet notes get leaked, you'd think they'd learn
remote mica
making immigration policy easier was a key aspect of the "project beethoven" to ...
I remember ASML being like, government, can you just not
nova talon
unrelated: but it's impressive how it's the second time draft cabinet notes get ...
Or it was done on purpose, knowing that it was an effective error for some last time
chrome urchin
I wouldn't assume this wasn't intentional. With Ollongren she had to run in a hurry, in stress, due to having a positive covid test. I assume it is just a reference to that, symbols like that are powerful
upbeat depot
without asylum and open borders our agri would collapse I believe.
Eventually our economy would just stagnate overall
We dont have enough peeps in the country to keep expanding the economy like this
They can say “the country is full” but we’ve said that plenty of times in the last century as well, turns out that we’re not full. For now we’ve been using eastern europeans (shitty but better wages)/high skilled western workers (tax cuts) but thats also not really a great permanent solution
I know a little about the asylum system as well due to close family members having worked there for a long time, long story short, the issues in the system are political not logistical
We can easily handle this many asylum seekers and integrate them, if both local citizens and/or the politicians decided to grow a brain and implement proper policy
upbeat depot
I know a little about the asylum system as well due to close family members havi...
Just to be clear i dont mean just the hague, though it’d be nice if they got their shit together. COA itself also has its shitshows when it comes to internal politics, but not like the hague couldnt put it in order if they really wanted to
remote mica
For those hearkening to the "good ol' days" when migration to NL more or less didn't happen, well, the economy was a lot smaller then. Yes there used to be nearly no migrants no it's not realistic to go back to that time
vestal lynx
It's human to feel nostalgia about the past: we tend to remember more the good things about the past than the bad ones, also we were younger and in general that meant a happier life
So it's a relatively easy thing to pick on by populist movements
nova talon
It's human to feel nostalgia about the past: we tend to remember more the good t...
I think many people are not nostalgic for their won past though, they are nostalgic for some time in the past long before they were born. How long varies, from pre-WWI to the Vikings to Byzantine times
I mean, for a long time it was Rome.
vestal lynx
That's a different form of nostalgia that is based on the glorification of a nation's past, usually when that nation led an empire or it's considering another empire an ancestor (Rome and by extension Byz fit here) because they would represent an idealisation or their beliefs. Which of course is not true, but don't let historical evidence get in the way of your propaganda 😉
nova talon
That's a different form of nostalgia that is based on the glorification of a nat...
but when people talk about 'the good old days' they don't (imo) often talk about any time that ever occurred during their own lifetimes, or perhaps sometimes they do, in an 'oh to be young again' way but imo not the same thing that people vote by
Then more people with factory jobs would be voting hard left
vestal lynx
I think there are those two different phenomenon: nostalgia within life (good example of this would be in Russia with the better times of the USSR, or many Francoists in Spain, and personal factors play in) and nostalgia of a nation's past (eg: Western Europe with their colonial empires). They do share however an idea of an imagined glorified past and the urge to return to it, often unaware that this would actually hurt them badly
nova talon
I think there are those two different phenomenon: nostalgia within life (good ex...
I simply disagree with this. With the exception of east germany after the wall, my experience has always been that it is the children of the generation who experienced a thing that are more nostlagic about it. Because they grew up hearing the stories without experiencing the actual things
vestal lynx
I gave you two examples that are well documented 
nova talon
I gave you two examples that are well documented <:blobshrug:950371466480877599>
I have not seen this documentation.
grizzled locust
https://nltimes.nl/2024/05/15/cabinet-formation-round-enters-final-day-deal-drop-15-share-buyback-tax holy crap, there might actually be a government in a few weeks
upbeat depot
For those hearkening to the "good ol' days" when migration to NL more or less di...
Also we actually did have a shit ton of migrants, it was just understood as necessary by the population while gaslighting ourselves that the migrants would leave after finishing their jobs
The issue is that with this wave we can no longer gaslight ourselves into thinking that cause they’re refugees as opposed to migrant workers
grizzled locust
The main unattainable points? 100K houses per year? We haven't reached that since 2010 according to cbs
I'm really wondering how they want to fund all this
nova talon
None of it is attainable and a lot of it is really scary
Apparently we're moving the embassy to Jerusalem
This is going to be interesting, all things considered
I have 0 idea what they mean by 'neutral' and 'proven effective' in terms of education. Are they going to pull a Cass report and say that unless it's been shown to be 'effective' (by what measure even?) as part of a double blind study it can't be taught?
And I really wonder whether they are trying to kill proportional representation in favour of a 'local regional MP'-model with
but that's mostly because I have no idea what they mean
I am guessing a lot of the things pertaining to asylum seekers are in direct violation of human rights (but am no lawyer)
grizzled locust
I'm kinda confused by the "We will send an opt-out request to brussels for refugees"
never knew that was an option
nova talon
never knew that was an option
I don't think it is, but they could politically use a denial to use as a populist tool.
grizzled locust
of course
nova talon
Another bizarre one:
vestal lynx
I find it odd with what do they mean with building a rail line between Lelystad and Groningen. There's one already, not always functional (the amount of times I had to get on or off a bus in Zwolle are quite a few) but it is there
gaunt sinew
I find it odd with what do they mean with building a rail line between Lelystad ...
This would be high speed.
vestal lynx
That makes more sense, ty
gaunt sinew
I have 0 idea what they mean by 'neutral' and 'proven effective' in terms of edu...
Tangentially related, especially this part. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/15/texas-granbury-isd-school-board-courtney-gore/
nova talon
"Politieagenten moeten te veel aandacht schenken aan personen met verward gedrag.
Personen met verward of onbegrepen gedrag moeten sneller de hulp en de zorg krijgen die
ze nodig hebben, daarom wordt intensievere samenwerking tussen de politie en de ggz
gestimuleerd. Relevante informatie moet waar nodig snel kunnen worden uitgewisseld." <-- I wonder are they going to force the GGZ to share data with police about people who are "verward" pre-emptively
nova talon
I'm really wondering how they want to fund all this
Funding with weapons sales
grizzled locust
why am I not surprised :)
grizzled locust
"Politieagenten moeten te veel aandacht schenken aan personen met verward gedrag...
i'm wondering where they think the people will come from. Both Police and ggz are still dealing with massive shortages.
nova talon
i'm wondering where they think the people will come from. Both Police and ggz ar...
Not from immigration 😆
Maybe they wanna try AI (with obviously all possible respect for privacy, the biggest joke of the century)
grizzled locust
i'm getting a headache just reading all this
grizzled locust
oh yeah
let's just scale back everything regarding co2 compensation etc.
and pile on with the AI not helping
nova talon
<-- Gas?
grizzled locust
we still produce gas from the northsea right?
nova talon
we still produce gas from the northsea right?
I guess, but they'll lose that courtcase if it ever happens probably. The evidence is very much on the side of it's harming the wadden atm.
I hope this applies to us exploiting the rainforest in Brazil but I doubt it.
gaunt sinew
I hope this applies to us exploiting the rainforest in Brazil but I doubt it.
Why does this remind me of Brexit language?
grizzled locust
because that's been something Wilders has wanted for a long time
nova talon
Why does this remind me of Brexit language?
I think that might be the end goal of some of this.
grizzled locust
in his mind there appears to be a sleight towards the netherlands when deciding deals
brb, searching for houses in Belgium again
nova talon
At least all of this seems geared to increase enmity between us and the EU, enhancing polarisation between groups, etc.
gaunt sinew
They think they can dictate treaties - which is famously not how negotiations work.
Except maybe Versailles.
grizzled locust
best time to negotiate is when your opponent is on his knees right
gaunt sinew
Bye-bye fish.
nova talon
Everywhere else "Let's get some marine protected areas!" NL: "Let's kill everything!"
grizzled locust
it's starting to look like speedrun any%
nova talon
Look, the whole thing is eminently memeable though, so I guess the kids'll have something to do
Ok, this one's unexpected:
grizzled locust
I can kinda get behind that tbh. It's a relatively clean way of making energy and one of the safest ways we have
but it's expensive and takes a long time
if only they got the molten salt ones in order more quickly
nova talon
Also whaddya do with the spent fuel? Dump that in the Waddenzee too?
Shoot it into space?
grizzled locust
spent fuel is buried in 600m deep tunnels
nova talon
Ok, 600m deep tunnels in a delta?
We could barely build the noord zuidlijn in amsterdam
grizzled locust
and when gen4 becomes a reality, it can be reused / filtrated to get more out of it
even delta's have bedrock
plus not everything is delta
nova talon
I'm not hard anti nuclear mind. I just have questions that I think are glossed over a fair bit. Some thing smight actually be great, like potentially filtering uranium from ocean water so we don't ahve to do uranium mining in the developing world. But we don't hear people talking about how viable any of that is [edited for terrible old fashioned terminology I used]
gaunt sinew
grizzled locust
I know
nova talon
I also don't mind it for some purposes. I really despise having to work on diesel fuelled icebreakers in the Arctic
I have not done the math on nuclear icebreakers like the Russians have but arguably, they might be less bad
But also they might not be less bad\
I simply don't know
grizzled locust
I can only remember one vessel story that ended badly
but with the amount of nuclear subs we have, the tech seems pretty good
nova talon
but with the amount of nuclear subs we have, the tech seems pretty good
you're assuming the navy care about their staff
grizzled locust
not we in netherlands, we in general
staff is hard to train, takes a lot of time. Especially nukes :)
nova talon
staff is hard to train, takes a lot of time. Especially nukes :)
I dunno, the one in Scotland tends to go the wrong way
(trident)
gaunt sinew
So at least I'll be legal when I drive 130 again...
vestal lynx
Speedy Knife
grizzled locust
It's legal now. After 7
gaunt sinew
It's legal now. After 7
It's not worth working that late.
grizzled locust
I still just go out for a drive :)
near sable
Another government in the shitter
nova talon
I think "will likely" is perhaps a little enthusiastic because after all, most people apparently support them/this
upbeat depot
I think "will likely" is perhaps a little enthusiastic because after all, most p...
Eh within the ministries i don’t know how many really support them, depends a bit on the ministry and the policy
This was in the context of moving the embassy which i don’t think that many at BuZa will be in favour of. Also the few reactions from f.ex former diplomats i saw were negative
Mainly those who have a history with Israel probably, the rest i’d assume would be either neutral or opposing it
Cause you piss off almost every country that’s not Israel just because you’re going against international resolutions and the current intl mood that’s shifting to a more pro palestinian stance on statehood/autonomy, while also isolating yourself more from most other embassies that are in Tel Aviv which is just impractical
nova talon
Cause you piss off almost every country that’s not Israel just because you’re go...
You have more faith in the logic of people at BuZa than I do 😉
upbeat depot
You have more faith in the logic of people at BuZa than I do 😉
Hah touché, maybe i’ve just gotten lucky with the people i’ve run into being sensible and also still wanting to do some good in the world
nova talon
Apparently (I was not looking for this content but I did recently change my search engine) this is normal now? (no I am not clicking that link because I don't want to give them that)
gaunt sinew
What did you do/search to get that?
nova talon
What did you do/search to get that?
SGP
Someone told me they were doing a protest in AMsterdam supporting Israel and Iwanted more info
upbeat depot
Someone told me they were doing a protest in AMsterdam supporting Israel and Iwa...
Check insta, most of the anti palestine protests in the NL have their main social media on instagram afaik
nova talon
Check insta, most of the anti palestine protests in the NL have their main socia...
Ah yes, I didn't ask. I was sharing what startpage the search engine gives me when I search for it
But thanks 🙂
upbeat depot
Ah yes, I didn't ask. I was sharing what startpage the search engine gives me wh...
Yeah i know just extra unasked FYI i guess lol
upbeat depot
I dont know if its good news or bad news, but our new candidate prime minister apparently sucks
IND people internally are not a fan lmao
nova talon
IND + AIVD I guess we will also be looking at the end of privacy.
Which I was not expecting for another few years tbh.
😉
upbeat depot
IND + AIVD I guess we will also be looking at the end of privacy.
I dont know if he’ll make it to het torentje
nova talon
I dont know if he’ll make it to het torentje
I don't see why the parties (PVV NSC BBB VVD) would dislike him. He's very in line with their hate immigrants law and order violence justified rhetoric.
upbeat depot
I don't see why the parties (PVV NSC BBB VVD) would dislike him. He's very in li...
Not the parties
They’d love him
upbeat depot
IND people internally are not a fan lmao
.
But i’ll leave it at that unless it reaches the news in the coming days lol
nova talon
See, I stand by what I said before. PVV is playing an accelerationism. This could be used to drive more of that.
upbeat depot
Could be
nova talon
Mind you, I don't want to be right about any of it.
upbeat depot
But at this point i can also believe that the only people that’d be willing the political suicide to become PM under this coalition just inherently must suck in one way or another
proud prawn
NLPlan revealed to receive funding from the CCP
honestly, I always thought it was a suspicious party
out of nowhere before last election they pop up, somehow go viral on tiktok (and still are pulling 5/6x more views than GvdA for example)
and that is despite polling for 0 seats across all elections
upbeat depot
out of nowhere before last election they pop up, somehow go viral on tiktok (and...
it's just cause he's literally a meme
a chinese funded meme apparently, but still a meme
Not even kidding, he literally asked to be meme-ified
upbeat depot
Yes, i do love how this will be our vice prime minister
gaunt sinew
Yes, i do love how this will be our vice prime minister
Was Schoof at AIVD at the time?
upbeat depot
Was Schoof at AIVD at the time?
Yes
near sable
Yes, i do love how this will be our vice prime minister
Lol
proud prawn
Soon it might be time to bring this channel back
Seems like the very messy coalition truly was very messy
upbeat depot
Who could have seen this coming…
proud prawn
it feels like this right now
gaunt sinew
Hi, gifs are not really the vibe we want to project here, so I removed it.
gaunt sinew
Two years later. https://apnews.com/article/netherlands-wilders-coalition-withdraws-685e5ebe6b88313a0af68365fe741cd3
nova talon
(should maybe rename the channel "the hague has fallen .... again". )
upbeat depot
So guys, how long until the next elections?
I give it 18 months or so
Maybe up to 26 if they’re feeling ambitious and get lucky with a period without any big crises
gaunt sinew
You're still young and optimistic. 🤣
upbeat depot
You're still young and optimistic. 🤣
I don’t think they’ll pass much interesting legislation but I can imagine that, as long as nothing forces them to be proactive, they can last a bit
But it’s also possible that they fall within 6 months if major legislation is required and they can’t pass it without involving the far right 
Most likely they’ll keep primarily coordinating with groenlinks on policy until at one point the VVD gets sick of it, can’t get enough political gifts to the right from D66 in return, and pulls the plug?
gaunt sinew
Especially that last part.
gaunt sinew
Tricky edit, there. 😛 could've made me look like I was agreeing to anything.
upbeat depot
Tricky edit, there. 😛 could've made me look like I was agreeing to anything.
Haha, technically the last part is still the same:)
upbeat depot
Another purple?
Liberals (blue) + Christian democrats (?) so it’s not technically purple (missing the social democrats (red) which would make it purple with the bible)
In belgium it’s been called “orange-blue” but I guess in the Netherlands it’s just kinda been the default until the 1990s?
I guess the one good thing is that at least we can replace the caretaker ministers from the BBB and the PVV with the (soon to be) caretaker ministers from D66 and CDA, slight improvement
light oar
I guess the one good thing is that at least we can replace the caretaker ministe...
That's an assumption. With all the new faces, that remains to be seen
upbeat depot
Touché
grizzled locust
https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6383227/crisis-in-pvv-kamerleden-stappen-op-na-felle-kritiek-op-partijleider-wilders.html so... Are we collapsing even before they're sworn in? "7 members of the PVV have left the faction after criticism of Geert Wilders handling of the election campaign"
gaunt sinew
They can't leave the party, there are no members. They can only leave the parliamentary group.