0.14 Bevy Jam

[slender belfry]

I remember there was a workaround tho

#1261408668159709315 message

here

[bitter sparrow]

well, it does but it doesn't

it can access the cache from main branch releases but not from non-main branch releases

i'll give it a bit more thought

i think the tradeoff in the PR is probably worth it. may want to allow cache-group to override the workflow file hash as well

so that cache-group can work between different workflow files -- but that also means different versions of the same workflow file

actually before this PR you could have another very strange thing happen

suppose we had a job in ci.yaml named build for some reason

then it would use the same cache key as build in release.yaml, because the tuple is the same: (runner.os, job name, cargo --version, Cargo.toml, Cargo.lock)

so if the two build jobs compile with different profiles / features, then one of the jobs will always get a "cache hit" but forced to recompile

[bitter sparrow]

there's a problem with cache + matrix as well

job name is the same for each matrix job ("build")

since web and linux releases both run on ubuntu-latest... they use the same cache key

i saw in one of our releases, the linux build was super fast because got a correct cache hit but the web build was slow because it got a false positive cache hit and had to recompile

that's probably on our end to fix though, with cache-group: ${{ matrix.platform }}

or maybe upstream could do ${{ github.job }}-${{ strategy.job-index }} EDIT: updated pr

[bitter sparrow]

gonna leave bevy-template CI as it currently is atp; we know what the issues are, and it can be improved after the jam

[slender belfry]

Thanks for upstreaming the CI wizardry 😄

[lunar sail]

Thanks, I will review this tomorrow (if not feel free to ping me)

(replied to the wrong link, meant the cargo-cache PR)

It might be better to have the workflow file hash at the end so that we have a higher chance of being able to reuse the cavbe but I'm not sure yet

But definitely a good addition, that might explain some recompile issues I had in the past.
I wish cargo would provide better verbose output explaining why things are recompiled...

[prisma delta]

Moving to voting in #jam-theme-voting now

[bitter sparrow]

yeah you kinda have to look at the cache key and compare it to the cache keys in other jobs / workflow runs to figure out what's going on

[bitter sparrow]

planning to get the README finished today so we can announce that the template is ready by tomorrow

[slender belfry]

thx!

I was planning on making the design decisions and third party tools separate docs. What do you think?

[bitter sparrow]

sounds good to me, i think the CI should be a separate doc too lol

huge linear README is just not readable

and i don't think we should leave out details to try to keep the README small

put the separate docs in a docs/ folder or something? idk what the convention is

[prisma delta]

Stick them close to whatever they're documenting ideally

[bitter sparrow]

ah okay. so third-party tools probably in the root by Cargo.toml and CI in .github/workflows?

assuming it's valid to put a .md in the workflows folder

probably fine if they're all in the root ig

[slender belfry]

I'd put them in a docs directory in this case

[bitter sparrow]

idk why hackmd is not letting me share this note i made

[slender belfry]

Also, thoughts on renaming the template to bevy-jam-template?

I'm asking because bevy-template is a really really really generic name

Which I think would be fine if it was in the Bevy org

[bitter sparrow]

lol my jam template is named bevy_jam_template but i was thinking of renaming it because it was too similar to bevy-template

[slender belfry]

But as-is, it makes it a bit awkward to talk about

[bitter sparrow]

are we specifically targetting jam games though?

i thought it was meant to be a general template, jam-friendly

[slender belfry]

Kinda?

[slender belfry]

That's true ofc.

But the fact that it targets the Bevy jam specifically brings with it some consequences

like beginner friendliness

and easy itch uploads

semi-official-bevy-template 🙃

[bitter sparrow]

starter-template or something?

[slender belfry]

That's at least better than bevy-template

@prisma delta do you have some wise recommendations?

[bitter sparrow]

if we're renaming, can we switch to underscores 😩

[slender belfry]

sure!

[bitter sparrow]

itch page can still be hyphens cause it's more natural in a url

[slender belfry]

I kinda like bevy_starter_template, but I also like bevy_jam_template

[prisma delta]

🤔

Definitely prefer a less generic name

[bitter sparrow]

bevy_quickstart (like https://bevyengine.org/learn/quick-start/introduction/)

[slender belfry]

uuuh I like that one as well

[unreal narwhal]

bevy_jam_5_starter

[prisma delta]

Not durable :p

[slender belfry]

And then rename it every jam? 😄

bevy_jam_5+_starter /j

[unreal narwhal]

heh, well I look at this template and I see it extending bevy api with extension traits and stuff and it feels like a departure tbh

[bitter sparrow]

i think bevy users should be using extension traits

[unreal narwhal]

but I'll bow out, it is not my place to be giving opinions, it is y'alls work

[bleak grail]

sugary_template, you need some sugar to start making a jam

[slender belfry]

You really really have to do that ATM to get a nice API

[slender belfry]

I kinda want to have a more "boring" name because it is supposed to feel like how an official Bevy template would look like if it existed today

[prisma delta]

I do think this captures the vibes pretty well 😄

[slender belfry]

I like this one most so far

[slender belfry]

It is a pretty cute name @bleak grail :>

[slender belfry]

The more I think about it, the more I like it

Or something like bevy_sugar

Aaaaaa

[dawn crag]

fwiw, I agree. I think we're gonna need a great mini-tutorial about how to use the template. It's just a lot. This will be something that people who are completely new to bevy try to use, and I just don't see it going super well for them.

but I've also taken the position that there's no reason this thing shouldn't exist and I don't wanna be a party pooper 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

i'd only think it sounds like syntax sugar

[slender belfry]

We are cursed with so many great names 😄

[slender belfry]

I think we already cut down a lot of that

But I'd love to hear some beginners' thoughts on it

[unreal narwhal]

yeah I agree and I'm planning on making a video on it to promote and explain what's going on if its ready far enough in advance of the jam start. I also don't want to party poop.

[bitter sparrow]

iirc extension traits are only used for ui widgets rn

[slender belfry]

There's definitely room for cutting more stuff that we simply don't see since we are blind to issues beginners might face

[slender belfry]

That's pretty sweet of you ❤️

[slender belfry]

Yeah, ideally that would be in Bevy proper

[bitter sparrow]

ah we have a Spawn extension trait defined on Commands and ChildBuilder ^\_(``/)_/^

[slender belfry]

But as a bit of a context, this way of doing UI was recommended to us by #ui-dev as the current best practice when not using an existing UI library

So I'd be very very skeptical of changing that part

[dawn crag]

I "get" that trait too / it makes sense. It's just a bit advanced.

[slender belfry]

Yeah that one is more contentious 😄

[slender belfry]

That's fair 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

it's only used internally in ui/widgets.rs but yes

[slender belfry]

Do you think it would be more approachable with documentation in a dedicated "design philosophy" document or with inline documentation?

Also, I hope I'm not coming across as overly protective of the project or anything. Criticisms are still very much welcome 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

we already have our own templates we're presumably more protective of hehe

[dawn crag]

hmm, I feel like the most important thing is a good top-down overview. I feel like there's no good place to "just start writing code." You have to first grok the whole project layout and figure out what you're doing and think of a good name for your little module and blah blah.

[bitter sparrow]

yeah that's a consequence of splitting into modules by feature

agree we should explain the project layout

[dawn crag]

I don't think I have access to the readme hackmd so I don't know what's already been done

[bitter sparrow]

should have access if you're signed in

[slender belfry]

https://hackmd.io/@hohenheim/H1dRzMhDC/edit

[dawn crag]

oh maybe I just wasn't signed in, lol

[slender belfry]

Ideally, that would be the game module. Everything there is "just for show", i.e. the ducky moving around. You can remove all of that and just write stuff

I think to start with it wouldn't be wrong to just write all of your game code directly into /game/mod.rs and then split it as you see fit

Maybe we should also mention that 😄

[bitter sparrow]

i think the screen/ directory is pretty easy to slot into as well

delete a file if you don't want that screen, add a file if you want a new screen

but ofc that needs to be explained

[slender belfry]

@dawn crag feel free to edit the readme as you see fit or add comments if you find something is written in a weird way

[bitter sparrow]

btw @slender belfry, no license files => all rights reserved, not public domain 😄

[slender belfry]

Yes. Does the readme imply otherwise?

[bitter sparrow]

yep

i'm doing an editing pass tho

[slender belfry]

Ah, my bad then 😅

ping @agile dirge @hidden pond

[bitter sparrow]

@slender belfry does trunk serve create a dev build or a release build?

[slender belfry]

dev

you can pass --release to get a release build

well, --release --no-default-features

[bitter sparrow]

BTW we could add trunk serve --no-spa as a VS Code task in tasks.json

[slender belfry]

that's good idea 😄

[bitter sparrow]

so im fine with whatever name is chosen for the template, doesn't really matter to me, but i'll lay out my reasoning against sugary_template:

1. may be confused with "syntax sugar", aka this template provides a lot of api ergonomics, which is not the intent
2. user has to make the connection to "game jams" to get the joke
3. the name implicitly ties the template to game jams, which isn't its sole focus

it is cute though and i think a cute name is good, if it fits better

[slender belfry]

You just convinced me to change my vote

[agile dirge]

Yeah, I didn't for that one for reason 1

[hidden pond]

I would've suggested Bevy Pectin myself 😛

[dawn crag]

Feel like there might be some potential confusion with https://bevyengine.org/learn/quick-start/getting-started/#quick-start being a thing that exists

[bitter sparrow]

that was intentional but maybe it's not a good thing? ;p

[bitter sparrow]

a couple refactor proposals:

1. merge camera.rs into lib.rs (imo it should be separate, but with window / asset / etc. all being merged into lib.rs, it doesn't make sense rn)
   2. rename src/ui_tools -> src/util and move src/ui_tools/widgets.rs to src/ui/widgets.rs (user will add their own utils and their own ui. i think this makes more sense and is easier to explain)

having to explain src/ui_tools in the README feels really weird

[slender belfry]

I agree with both

Wait, I misread

so there will be /util and /ui?

[bitter sparrow]

as proposed yes

[slender belfry]

That feels a bit weird, considering everything in there is ui themed

[bitter sparrow]

true. could just rename src/ui_tools -> src/ui instead

[slender belfry]

sounds good 🙂

[dawn crag]

is there a particular reason we are urging people not to use bevy_audio?

[bitter sparrow]

missing features iirc

[agile dirge]

note that we had a ui folder initially and we specifically changed it to ui_tools so it's not confused with screens

[bitter sparrow]

well we had it as src/util/ui at the time

[agile dirge]

changing where ui folder is doesn't fix the issue though

the name is simply wrong

[bitter sparrow]

the issue was apparent complexity i thought?

[agile dirge]

that was the main drive, but we also did naming revamp and that was a part of the reason

[bitter sparrow]

maybe

i definitely wouldn't call the name "wrong" anyways

[agile dirge]

not gonna fight it, just letting you know

[bitter sparrow]

potentially confused with screen, maybe

[bitter sparrow]

we should include reasoning alongside the recommendations anyways

[agile dirge]

Best to ask that in #1236113088793677888

or #audio-dev

i mean, it's basically confirmed to be replaced

[dawn crag]

I sort of understand the reasons that bevy is moving towards kira, (rodio just being poorly designed, apparently). But afaik there aren't any showstopping things in bevy_audio right now and I don't know if telling people that an audio engine swap is a "must have" is right.

[agile dirge]

just a matter or release or few, there was serious discussion about making a custom sound lib for Bevy

[bitter sparrow]

i remember running into a limitation for something super basic in bevy jam 3

so i had to switch

[unreal narwhal]

bevy is moving towards an in-house audio engine afaik, so not kira anymore

[fallen stag]

The current implementation is not reliably real-time (as far as I know) and also makes it really difficult to do stuff as basic as loop tracks.

[prisma delta]

For a jam I'd probably consider using it though

[bitter sparrow]

yeah i think my issue was something like this

i like.. couldn't change the track to a victory track. or something

was just impossible

[prisma delta]

But yes, please give reasoning for recommendations like that

[slender belfry]

Yeah, I think for jams usability is key

[fallen stag]

They shouldn’t be told not to use it, but we could warn them they are going to have a hard time and apologize in advance.

[slender belfry]

Missing features probably come second

[dawn crag]

do tracks not... loop? like I recall having looping music in all of my jam games, lol.

[slender belfry]

Okay nvm, that sounds bad even when only used in a jam

@bitter sparrow I'm still feeling under the weather, but I think I should be able to do a pass on the readme tomorrow. Do you mind waiting with announcing everything until then?

[bitter sparrow]

it seems we need to use bevy_kira_audio to support stopping a looping sound (the main track) to replace it with the victory track

found my old quote explaining my reasoning

[bitter sparrow]

yeah for sure, readme needs to go through code review anyways

[dawn crag]

But yeah, if there's a good reason for users to do that, please explain that reasoning. Ideally, make sure that reasoning is actually true circa Bevy 0.14.

Otherwise, I just really don't like telling new users that bevy_audio "is not usable." (that is the leap I am making from "bevy_kira_audio is a must-have plugin.")

[bitter sparrow]

yeah that's fair, the quote was true as of bevy 0.10

[dawn crag]

it seems we need to use bevy_kira_audio to support stopping a looping sound (the main track) to replace it with the victory track

This seems sort of surprising, but also I would be very surprised if there wasn't a very simple workaround if it's still a thing. It definitely sounds pre-"ecs-based audio"

[slender belfry]

We could leave it in the "nice to have" bucket and then re-evaluate after the jam

It would be pretty nice if bevy_ui turned out to be good enough for jams 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

eh i used pure bevy_ui for bevy jam simulator

not that that was a good idea

bad multi-line text rendering and no scrollbar widget were the most annoying things

hopefully text is good in 0.15

[unreal narwhal]

was there a doc for the direction of the template?

[bitter sparrow]

we never ended up making one (yet)

[unreal narwhal]

it feels really awkward to be seeing things like "bevy_audio and bevy_ui aren't good enough to use", so was wondering what the charter was for the template

[slender belfry]

I do wanna write about that when my energy returns

[bitter sparrow]

i mean it's well-known that these are sore spots in bevy today no?

[unreal narwhal]

could be better and "unusable" are very different things

[slender belfry]

We're sticking to pure Bevy with no 3rd party plugins as that was a hole in the template ecosystem

[bitter sparrow]

if you're making a jam game you don't want to waste days working around upstream issues

i don't think anyone is saying unusable

[slender belfry]

So that's where that sentiment is coming from

[slender belfry]

We're phrasing it as "pretty much a must-have for jams". Not saying that the core Bevy libraries are unusable (bevy UI certainly is pretty capable, just missing widgets)

[unreal narwhal]

yeah I suppose my read of "its a must-have" is that the built-in functionality is not enough, even for game jams.

[bitter sparrow]

can be careful about phrasing when that section is written out

[dawn crag]

Yeah, strike some sort of balance where we don't present Bevy as being incapable on its own, but also glorify the third party ecosystem.

[slender belfry]

I definitely see where that read comes from

[bitter sparrow]

something like "these 3rd-party libraries are highly likely to save you time during a game jam"

[slender belfry]

Also feel free to just write that directly into the hackmd

comments welcome 🙂

[unreal narwhal]

I don't have access because its private and not on github 😅

[bitter sparrow]

ope. i think it requires an account

hackmd permissions are awkward

[slender belfry]

https://hackmd.io/@hohenheim/H1dRzMhDC/edit

You should be able to access it when you're logged into hackmd

Inside that document, there are links for the hackmds of other docs

[unreal narwhal]

I don't really want to make a hackmd account, so I'll leave it to y'all and stop commenting.

[bitter sparrow]

understandable, i'll prob @ you when i make the README PR

[slender belfry]

Feel free to comment on Discord, I can copy your sentiments into the hackmd 🙂

I very much value the comments we are getting ❤️

[prisma delta]

IMO bevy_ui is usable for 90% of jam games

Unless you're doing something UI heavy, buttons are generally enough

[bitter sparrow]

even for buttons you kinda want bevy_mod_picking :)

but yes it's simple enough to implement buttons without it ofc

[prisma delta]

And Interaction does exist!

It's not great, but it does function

[bitter sparrow]

iirc the main issue with Interaction is like having the button remain pressed on click & drag, or having a button take effect upon release (but only if the mouse is still above the button), stuff like that

[prisma delta]

Yeah, but again, for jam games, that's generally fine

[bitter sparrow]

if you just want "on mouse down" it's good

[slender belfry]

@prisma delta could you pin this? I want to leave it up until tomorrow

[dawn crag]

75% of the top 3 entries from previous bevy jams used bevy_ui exclusively. The rest used bevy_egui, a combination of bevy_ui and bevy_egui, and one said f-it and did their UI with sprites.

[bitter sparrow]

the sprite ui 😭

[slender belfry]

Thanks for checking 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

also notably sickle_ui didn't exist for previous jams. (and as a counterpoint, bevy_ui has improved over time)

[slender belfry]

Curious to see how many will use sickle_ui this jam

[slender belfry]

I think we should copy-paste this information into the hackmd

[bitter sparrow]

imo bevy changes so much every 2 releases that it'd be too outdated to be relevant

but maybe

[bitter sparrow]

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/139

[bitter sparrow]

i'm gonna make separate PRs for each readme doc

so there will be a few broken links until they're all uploaded (will link to TODO at first)

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/140

@unreal narwhal (3rd-party recommendations not included in this PR yet, just the main README)

there may be a few other things we still want to add to the main README, but i think it's in a good enough place for an initial PR to get things moving

[bitter sparrow]

think adding --open to the trunk serve command (in the README and the tasks.json) is worth, equivalent to how cargo run will open a window once it's done building

[slender belfry]

The Trunk.toml already sets --open

In theory. It never opens the browser for me, but that might be a Windows bug

[bitter sparrow]

hm ok. did not work for me on linux :)

[slender belfry]

Maybe it’s parts of the next version of trunk, like no-spa

In that case, sure, let’s add the flag to the CLI invocation

[bitter sparrow]

ok on that note, created pr https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/141

i'll update the readme pr as well

ok so uh

in our Trunk.toml

[server] is supposed to be [serve]...

i changed it to [serve] and open = true took effect

😅

idk how to test if no_spa = true is working?

the game runs fine

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/142

updated other PRs accordingly

[bitter sparrow]

game runs fine with no_spa = false as well so idk

[bitter sparrow]

okay i checked web console

confirmed that no_spa = true in Trunk.toml works when [serve] is used instead of [server]

[slender belfry]

If changes what happens when a resource is missing. Bevy expects missing assets to return 404, but trunk by default just redirects to index.html

You can test it by navigating to localhost/foo

If it returns a 404, that’s good. If it redirects to localhost, that’s bad

[slender belfry]

Well that explains things 😄

[bitter sparrow]

i set up Bevy Jam 5 and Bevy Jam 6 milestones to organize issues better

[bitter sparrow]

can't recommend blenvy / blender bevy components workflow, because the latter is still 0.13 and the former is not released yet

ill omit the "other tools" section

[prisma delta]

Right, this is as an itch.io alternative?

[dawn crag]

Yeah, optional. I can definitely see arguments both ways.

Question motivated by my brain, for whatever reason, telling my fingers to type https://thebevyflock.github.io/bevy-template into my address bar and expecting it to work.

IIRC, it was done previously in a PR to bevy_github_ci_template, but that PR also massively reorganized the CI in sort of a controversial way and stalled out.

Seems unimportant for Bevy Jam, but maybe slightly useful for jamming in general.

[slender belfry]

That's a good idea. I think it's nice to give users the option to self-host. It shouldn't be too hard to implement either. Adding an issue so we don't forget 🙂

[hidden pond]

Ehh. I feel like deploying to GH Pages is a bit much, and doesn't really bring much value, while also adding more areas where someone who is new could get confused.

(Also feels kinda sketchy to me tbh, but that's more of a me thing.)

[slender belfry]

I also don't think it brings that much value, but it's trivial enough. I don't think there is much of a vector for confusion since everything there can be automated away.
With itch, you have to add your API keys and create the project. With GitHub pages, it's enough to just have a workflow.

[slender belfry]

You mean you find games that are self-hosted sketchier than games hosted on itch.io?

[slender belfry]

Also useful to have beta builds deployed that way

[hidden pond]

I find games that are hosted on github pages sketchier than games hosted on itch.io (although games that are self-hosted are treated as a bit sketchier than being on itch.io in general outside of a handful of circumstances, but not as sketch as github pages tbh)

Also I just generally dislike adding in more things that tie this template specifically to github.

[bitter sparrow]

actually @lunar sail i just had a thought. it may be better to leave the workflow file hash in cache-group, but add the entire cache-group to fallbacks

so there can be cross-job (or cross-cache group) fallback caching

[bitter sparrow]

different jobs might run the same or similar commands

would be even better to make the fallback more granular, preferring the same workflow file + job name but different matrix index first, then the same workflow file but different job name + matrix index, then different workflow file

but that would be more complicated because the cache-group can be overwritten

[lunar sail]

Hmmm right

While trying to find the cargo-cache repo (thanks terrible github search) I also found another action doing something similar to ours and they also provided more than just one user configurable part

Basically at different positions of the hash key

But I'm also thinking I might just merge what we have now as its definitely am improvement and then we can refine the behavior later on
Might have to do a major version bump though

[bitter sparrow]

makes sense

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/144

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy-template/pull/145

@unreal narwhal tool recommendations this time

[unreal narwhal]

why is it a set of specific crates instead of a link to https://bevyengine.org/assets

[bitter sparrow]

it includes that link

but the reason is to highlight a subset that are particularly useful for pretty much any game

[unreal narwhal]

so there's a quickstart template repo that doesn't include crates that are particularly useful for pretty much any game?

[bitter sparrow]

yep...

there's not much actual game code in the template

so it's not too bad, but as soon as you want like, physics

or debugging tools

then these crates would become useful

[unreal narwhal]

I think a guiding document would've been useful for the template effort. its not clear to me what the goals are, so I can't really give any useful feedback on the list.

if its an official template, then these are official recommendations.

[bitter sparrow]

it's meant to be a semi-official template

this is the closest we have to a guiding principles writeup #1258521739395203174 message :p

[unreal narwhal]

if #1 is "no third party dependencies" then scrap the list entirely imo

point people to /assets

[bitter sparrow]

hmm purely from a pragmatic standpoint, i think the list adds a lot of value (in addition to linking to bevy assets)

[unreal narwhal]

I think the list plays favorites in a way that isn't clear, and I disagree with the top-level statement of "the following libraries will likely be useful for most games"

[bitter sparrow]

in terms of "being neutral" it is a deviation though

[slender belfry]

Agreed. The bevy/assets page has a lot of libraries. From looking at it, it's not clear to a beginner that something like LWIM is on a whole other level than other crates

[slender belfry]

A recommendation list is inherently playing favorites. I mean, that's its job, isn't it?

[slender belfry]

How would you rephrase it?

Maybe "We find the following libraries are particularly useful for many kinds of projects"?

[unreal narwhal]

"some crates the template authors have vetted and think you might find useful"

[slender belfry]

Or "The following libraries have, in our opinion, an exceptional level of usefulness / documentation / maturity / widespread usage"?

[bitter sparrow]

make it more clear that it's subjective?

[slender belfry]

That's good

[unreal narwhal]

yeah again my comment in response to being asked for feedback is "I don't think I have useful feedback here", because I don't know that the list should exist. Especially given the variety of things like ui libraries. Why sickle and not quill or lunex or any of the others, for example

[bitter sparrow]

yeah the UI libraries is one thing i was unsure on

sickle_ui is mainly because it adds immediately useful features (widgets) and builds on bevy UI

but there are a lot of great UI libraries

[unreal narwhal]

also worth noting concretely that bevy_hanabi doesn't work on wasm afaik

so if you use it in the jam, its unlikely that you get votes as a result

[bitter sparrow]

actually i believe it might now, i checked the issue yesterday

let me double check

https://github.com/djeedai/bevy_hanabi/issues/41#issuecomment-2227161384

i havent read the full issue context to know what exactly this comment means tho

[slender belfry]

I gravitate towards recommending sickle_ui because at this moment it seems like it is the most representative of how bevy_ui will evolve. I recall @prisma delta writing something about "We will not upstream bevy_ui, but with a very high likelihood port large parts of it in some form or another into bevy_ui"

But I think it's fair to also mention the other UI crates

[unreal narwhal]

yes, but the assets page already does that, doesn't it?

[slender belfry]

Yeah, that's why I'd rather keep this list short if possible

[bitter sparrow]

i could remove sickle_ui and bevy_hanabi 😄

i think all the rest have fewer solid alternatives

[slender belfry]

Its a bit of a toss-up between keeping the list short and making it more inclusive

[bitter sparrow]

well hanabi doesn't really have solid alternatives for particles afaik, but like vfx

[slender belfry]

There's some CPU particle crates

Haven't tested them tho

[slender belfry]

I'd feel bad not recommending any UI library

[bitter sparrow]

hm yeah.. could be a separate section for UI, to include a few more libraries :p

[unreal narwhal]

yeah again, my comment in response to being asked for feedback is "I don't think I have useful feedback here". The template is straddling a line between not having third party crates and turning around and immediately recommending crates that could require refactors (bevy_asset_loader and loading states, for example).

(and to be clear, I love bevy_asset_loader, so no knock on the crate)

[bitter sparrow]

yeah that's true. the reason for that is that bevy is in an awkward spot rn for an "unopinionated pure-bevy template"

and yet we're trying to make one anyways

to the extent that it's possible

[slender belfry]

I think that's alright. This is mostly Bevy's official response to such things, so it makes sense that we would adopt that as well.

[bitter sparrow]

if the list of (curated) recommendations could be hosted outside the template somewhere we could link to, that might be slightly better

[slender belfry]

The refactors should be trivial. If not, we should change the template to make refactors for third party crates trivial

[hidden pond]

Github Repos have Wikis we could put it in if we wanted.

[unreal narwhal]

yes and I think this is this opinion coming through in the implementation. The template authors feel that Bevy by itself is not enough for a game jam.

[slender belfry]

I wouldn't. At that point, you're just creating yet-another-awesome-bevy-list

[bitter sparrow]

fair enough

[bitter sparrow]

tbf.. i do feel that way

[unreal narwhal]

yeah I only said it because I've seen you say it 😆

[slender belfry]

"not enough" is a bit of a strong word. Can't speak for the others, but at least my personal opinion is that pure Bevy is certainly enough for a jam, it's just that some things require more boilerplate than what you'd expect from a game engine

[bitter sparrow]

i'd consider that "not enough" since jams come with a tight time constraint

personally

[slender belfry]

Hmm, fair point

[slender belfry]

Prime example is LWIM. I had a stab at adding input mapping to the template, but I realized that I was basically recreating a subset of LWIM. Instead, a user can just trivially add LWIM themselves now.

@bitter sparrow I'll later check your readme PRs in more detail. I'll probably accept them without much fuss and then do a follow-up PR myself with some changes.

[slender belfry]

@unreal narwhal do you think adding something like this to the recommendations would make this seem less arbitrary?

[unreal narwhal]

I think if there's a strong reason like that then definitely include it as a note

does make the rec even stronger

[bitter sparrow]

"likely to be upstreamed" could be noted for a few of those libraries

LWIM, picking, sickle (partially)

kira_audio was going to be potentially upstreamed but plans changed

avian might be upstreamed at some point in the future but that's more speculative. some type of ecs-first physics for sure

[unreal narwhal]

picking has its own working group, so definitely makes sense -- https://discord.com/channels/691052431525675048/1236111180624297984

[slender belfry]

Still multiple years worth of work left for that, according to @limber dragon

[bitter sparrow]

that makes sense, it's a tall task

[limber dragon]

depends on how busy university will make me :P

[slender belfry]

can't you enroll in physicengineology?

[limber dragon]

bevyology

[slender belfry]

Ornithology

[slender belfry]

Just don't tell them which kinds of "avian" you're studying 😄

[prisma delta]

@slender belfry I would put something like "Uses bevy_ui primitives and well-aligned with bevy_ui's planned future" for sickle_ui

[bitter sparrow]

first draft

In particular:
- `leafwing-input-manager` and `bevy_mod_picking` are very likely to be upstreamed to Bevy in the near future.
- `bevy_editor_pls` and `bevy_mod_debugdump` help fill the gap until Bevy has its own editor.
- `bevy_rapier` or `avian` help fill the gap until Bevy has its own physics engine.
- `sickle_ui` is well-aligned with `bevy_ui` and helps fill the gap until Bevy has a full collection of UI widgets.

after the full table

[prisma delta]

I'd probably recommend bevy-inspector-egui over bevy_editor_pls, just because it's a bit lighter weight

And I would probably recommend bevy_egui for making dev tools

[bitter sparrow]

interesting. they're both made by the same person also :)

[prisma delta]

Yeah, the latter wraps the former

[bitter sparrow]

i was considering recommending both, or just bevy_editor_pls

would both be reasonable?

[prisma delta]

Pick one IMO, but no strong feelings

[bitter sparrow]

actually the decision is easy. bevy_editor_pls does not support 0.14 yet, bevy-inspector-egui does

[slender belfry]

Anecdotally, I have started doing my tooling through bevy_console and found that process to be more productive than fiddling with UI. Of course that does not work for e.g. graphs, but it's nice to be able to just enter spawn enemy 10 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

i was considering adding a dev console to the recommendations

i think i didn't because of bevy version compatibility

[bitter sparrow]

ope

[slender belfry]

bevy_quickstart it is 🎉

[bitter sparrow]

btw bevy-console has a PR updating it to 0.14, but not merged yet

[slender belfry]

renamed the repo

[bitter sparrow]

bevy_dev_console does not

[bitter sparrow]

hype. now the renamening begins

imo we should add a link to the bevy quick-start guide in the README now

[dawn crag]

I mentioned hanabi in a hackmd comment -- it can't / won't ever support webgl2 and doesn't yet work properly with webgpu.

[bitter sparrow]

to ease the potential confusion a bit

[bitter sparrow]

ah. is this not relevant then? #1258521739395203174 message

if it doesn't work on web i will remove hanabi from the list

[slender belfry]

I also heard that a certain coding wizard in my area is working on a for-real-for-real console in Bevy 👀
-# @night saddle

[dawn crag]

ah cool, so looks like it should work in most browsers now. My bad about the webgpu part. Still, most people will be doing webgl2 builds / that's what the template is set up for.

[bitter sparrow]

hm ok. i either have to remove it or add a note then

[bitter sparrow]

renamed the itch.io page to bevy-quickstart

[dawn crag]

either is fine for me, but there are particle plugins that do work w/ webgl2

[bitter sparrow]

CPU-based?

[dawn crag]

yeah. https://github.com/mbrea-c/bevy_firework and I think there may even be 1-2 others.

[slender belfry]

You're such a busy wizard 😄

[slender belfry]

Wait, I know one that got featured in the Rust GameDev newsletter

[bitter sparrow]

okay. i think removing hanabi from the list will be the easiest option then

user can find it / others in bevy assets

[slender belfry]

berdicles

[dawn crag]

I wouldn't. At that point, you're just creating yet-another-awesome-bevy-list

I mean, I guess that's an option. I'd pile my recommendations on if we did a ~~semi-~~totally-un-offical "crates the authors of this template love" list.

But I mostly wish we just had better tools for figuring out which crates listed in bevy-assets even work with the latest version of Bevy.

Or, we could do a totally neutral "this is a list of the most-used third party crates in Bevy Jam 4 that work with Bevy 0.14" perhaps.

[slender belfry]

That would be pretty in-spirit with the working group; I like that idea 😄

[slender belfry]

I'd be nice if it was sorted by something. Most recent supported Bevy version and then most GitHub stars would probably be a good start.

[bitter sparrow]

still 2 versions outdated, but for an "automated" approach that could be worse

also if you want to make a non-jam game, the most used libraries for jam games wouldn't necessarily match. but i'm sure in practice they'd all be useful so that's fine

[slender belfry]

Oh, found an issue: https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy-assets/issues/297

[dawn crag]

it's a bit tricky -- some link to github and some link to crates.io. some use gitlab, or something else entirely. some do dev in their main branch, following bevy's main branch, etc.

[slender belfry]

Ah, true, didn't consider that

[bitter sparrow]

and some aren't open source, or just don't link to their source

oh wait mb

misread context :)

[slender belfry]

If they're not open source, why would they be on that page? 👀

[slender belfry]

ah 😄

[bitter sparrow]

was thinking about jam games (to see which libraries they use)

[bitter sparrow]

a pr could probably make this more consistent by only linking to crates.io

or having two fields

one for crates.io link specifically, one for "where clicking this asset will take you"

which may or may not be the same link

[dawn crag]

ah, I forgot that workspaces are (or at least were) an issue too. lots of related discusson in https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy-website/pull/648
edit: seems resolved now, except for gitlab

[bitter sparrow]

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/146

maybe sort by recent downloads?

most likely supporting a more recent version of bevy => more recent downloads

although that also prioritizes more commonly used crates ofc. but that could be a feature?

@prisma delta jam page linking to the template should be updated, the template is now called bevy_quickstart at https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart

hm actually i see the jam page links to the CI template + bevy assets. ig that was changed?

[prisma delta]

Yep, we swapped that out.

That said, we should submit this template to Bevy Assets soon

And I've updated the initial message too 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

yep agreed. there is an issue for this that was waiting on some more polish to get a nice screenshot / gif

unlikely to change in a meaningful way (before the jam) at this point so should be good to do that

[bitter sparrow]

cargo-cache upstream PR approved 🎉

that'll fix the build matrix jobs for linux and web sharing the same cache, forcing one of them to always fully recompile

[prisma delta]

Awesome. @lunar sail do you want to merge and release this?

[lunar sail]

That would be great, thanks!
Can you tag it as both v2.0.0 and v2?
The action stuff is kinda weird in how they handle semver (its all fake)

[prisma delta]

Remind me tomorrow 🙂

[fallen stag]

do you guys have a way to show a loading screen while stuff is still popping in?

[bitter sparrow]

while? if you're in a loading screen presumably you're not seeing stuff pop in right

there is a loading screen yes, i haven't personally reviewed that code though

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/blob/main/src/screen/loading.rs

[lunar sail]

I've done it now :)
@bitter sparrow @slender belfry We'll have to upgrade the action version to v2 to get these changes

[bitter sparrow]

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/147

https://github.com/Leafwing-Studios/cargo-cache/pull/18

will try to do a pass on the CI / CD doc and make a PR for that today

[slender belfry]

Approved. Will work on the readme stuff in like 2 hours until it is done. I wanna get the announcements out today 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

hm, there's an issue with the cargo-cache change 😕

it's not fully broken, in fact it's still a slight improvement over the previous version as is so not too bad

the "workflow file hash" is an empty string, but the job name / matrix index are working properly

so the cache group looks like -test-0 instead of lkjsdfalsjkdf-test-0 or w/e

ok it's a silly mistake. good

https://github.com/Leafwing-Studios/cargo-cache/pull/19

[slender belfry]

I hope that does not require an immediate bump to v3. Idk how/if GitHub actions works with semver

[bitter sparrow]

i did a pass on the CI / CD doc

will make a PR for it (with broken images for now cause idk where to put the images 😄)

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/149

@unreal narwhal not sure if you wanted a ping for this part of the README but pinging just in case 😄

[slender belfry]

Something else unfortunately got me blocked. I’ll get to it as soon as I get up in like 8 hours. Sorry for the delay!

[slender belfry]

/docs/images?

[bitter sparrow]

maybe. this doesn't conflict with cargo doc right?

we'd also have to mention to delete docs/ when user clones the template, which is np

bevy repo does assets/branding and assets/docs, but i don't think we want that

i wonder if putting the "user files" in their own folder and having the top-level folder be the "template files" would make sense

where "user files" = assets, web, src, Cargo.toml, etc., and "template files" = README, LICENSE, doc images, etc.

not rn ofc :P

[bitter sparrow]

like how you can have multiple crates in a workspace

[lunar sail]

The versions are all fake, its just the name of the tags.
So you being able to use v1 instead of v1.0.0 is just the maintainers also assigning a v1 tag lol

[bitter sparrow]

so i suppose one could just move the v2 and v2.0.0 tags then

[lunar sail]

@prisma delta Are you able to release this?
I don't have access to my PC for the next three days.
You'd have to tag the latest commit v2.0.1 and move the v2 tag to the latest commit as well.
Thanks!

[slender belfry]

Brilliant 😄

[hidden pond]

Also I just realized a good way to test if this template works for Game Jams. At least I think.

[prisma delta]

https://github.com/Leafwing-Studios/cargo-cache/tags This should do it 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

confirmed that the fix works in bevy_quickstart release workflow

the windows build had a different workflow file hash than the linux, mac, and web builds o.O

files on windows being weird maybe? backslashes instead of slashes in file path?

if it's something like that it's probably fine, since we're splitting the cache key by ${{ runner.os }} already

https://github.com/actions/runner/issues/2071

known issue, "expected behavior" 😭 ok then

the Cargo.toml and Cargo.lock file hashes are also different on windows vs other OSes ofc, and always have been

[slender belfry]

@bitter sparrow I'm ready for the readme stuff now 💪
Approved all of your PRs. I have some suggestions, but I think it's best if I do them as a follow-up PR after merging them

Is it alright if I merge them all in?

[bitter sparrow]

yeah i was gonna do that

[slender belfry]

I ❤️ automerge btw

[bitter sparrow]

real

[slender belfry]

@bitter sparrow I've got two small PRs ready for a review

[bitter sparrow]

@slender belfry small README pr: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/152

afaic just needs readme images and it's good to announce

adding to bevy assets can happen after announce anyways

[slender belfry]

I'll do the following first:

• Do a pass on the readmes
• Write a little bit more on the structure
• Update cargo-generate
• Test that cargo-generate still works

[bitter sparrow]

ok sg. what's missing from structure, web/ and assets/?

trivial pr btw https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/153

[slender belfry]

I meant more in the sense of "design decisions"

whew, that was a tough merge

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/154

[bitter sparrow]

im gonna make a pr fixing the images / links in the docs

[slender belfry]

👍

[bitter sparrow]

one issue, everything else seems fine

[slender belfry]

thanks

very possible that there are other issues

that was not a pretty merge

[bitter sparrow]

auto merge ci later

[slender belfry]

I'll make a pass through both workflows

[bitter sparrow]

links / images pr: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/155

[slender belfry]

Alright, merge should be good now

[bitter sparrow]

checking

[slender belfry]

Approved, I assume you ran oxipng already

[bitter sparrow]

oh uh nope

idk what that is 😄

decreases size?

[slender belfry]

yep

it's like pngcrush but written in Rust

[bitter sparrow]

i know the gif compressor tool (gifski)

[slender belfry]

cargo binstall oxipng

[bitter sparrow]

ok ill update pr

[slender belfry]

TIL

[bitter sparrow]

it's OP

i used it for bevy jam simulator gifs

[slender belfry]

It looks like black magic to me 👀

How can it do that to GIFs?!?!?!

[bitter sparrow]

ikr. it's crazy

gifs become actually a viable format

oxipng -o 6 -s docs/*.png good?

50% smaller is impressive

updated pr

oh my linux repo's package manager has oxipng. even better (so i can keep it updated)

[slender belfry]

You can also do -Z to squeezy a little bit more out, but it takes way longer

-o 6 is also -o max

[bitter sparrow]

icic

ill put my cpu to work and see if that makes a big difference

[slender belfry]

If you add -Z also use --fast

[slender belfry]

IME is squeezes out some extra 3-4%, so not that much

[bitter sparrow]

yep i'm seeing 3-5%. will update the PR anyways

updated

[lunar sail]

Oof, thats good to know

[bitter sparrow]

there might be a way around it via a git setting described in the issue, i haven't explored

[lunar sail]

Although the OS is at the start of our cache key anyway IIRC so it shouldn't matter for the cache

[bitter sparrow]

yup in practice it's fine

[lunar sail]

I dont think cargo could reuse compilations from other OSs

[bitter sparrow]

probably not.. maybe it would help for like cargo doc? idk

you're unlikely to have more than 1 job that calls cargo doc anyways :p

[slender belfry]

The only contrived example I can come up with is using both a Linux machine and WSL and then wanting to cache that? But no one would do that.

[lunar sail]

BTW I also found this action which essentially does the same thing as ours: https://github.com/Swatinem/rust-cache

Offers some more customization, but it doesn't handle a missing Cargo.lock like we do

(Although I guess now cargo recommends not ignoring the lockfile even for libraries so that situation doesn't happen that often anymore)

[slender belfry]

Seems like that one does not check for changes in the workflow files by default

Lel

[lunar sail]

Maybe some cross pollination between the two could help
They seem to put more care to reduce the size of the cache which we currently do not

I also like their save-if option, only saving caches on the main branch could be important for huge repos like bevy

[dawn crag]

it also caches the cargo registry which is nice

[slender belfry]

Btw @bitter sparrow I love the editing you did on the readme after the hackmd

Like the change in headers to "Write your game", "Run your game", "Release your game"

That's brilliant 😄

[bitter sparrow]

thank you thank you 💅

[slender belfry]

Also the way to compressed many of the instructions into single sentences

Like linking trunk serve directly to the trunk docs

that's pretty clever

[bitter sparrow]

😄

yeah i wanted to make it look more approachable

while still including all the steps ofc

the collapsible <details> section suggested by @unreal narwhal is very cool, will have to use that more in my own readmes

[slender belfry]

I really really hate that mdlint disallows that by default

[bitter sparrow]

inline html is an intentional feature of markdown :p

warning about it does make sense tho

[slender belfry]

I could add an mdlint file to root to allow it, but I think that would be fairly useless to a user, so I'm not doing that

[bitter sparrow]

btw i deleted the itch.io release packages and started a release workflow, to update the filenames

[slender belfry]

ah, thx!

[bitter sparrow]

im also double-checking caching behavior

the caches restored from the previous release's caches

because we changed Cargo.toml in between

(and they're using the same v0.1.0 tag so cache is shared)

so 👍

[slender belfry]

Do we not always upload to GH releases?

[bitter sparrow]

it's enabled by default, but there's a flag to disable it

[bitter sparrow]

confusingly, the windows cache actually did not restore, even though the cache keys seem fine to me

only the cargo.toml hash differs between the previous window release and the latest one

ignore me

i confused which release was latest and which was previous

trivial PR, fixing link that i missed: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/156

also something i just noticed about itch.io

it's doing something with the filenames

on the github release they're all bevy_quickstart-os.zip format

downloaded from itch, the filenames are as shown in the screenshot

[slender belfry]

Already fixed in my working branch

Not merging so I don't get conflicts 😛

[bitter sparrow]

ah ok

[bitter sparrow]

i suspect that itch.io is converting _ to - on non-mac platforms

[slender belfry]

The heck

[bitter sparrow]

not sure how else to explain it

[slender belfry]

On zips probably

macos is .dmg

[bitter sparrow]

hmm could be

i'll make a Bevy Jam 6 milestone issue to investigate 😄

[slender belfry]

I'd like to only recommend Avian as a physics engine because I think people will have an easier time working with it. The main reasons for using Rapier are performance, maturity, and some extra advanced features like joint motors. I don't think these are important enough for jams to point beginners to it.

[bitter sparrow]

i can see that

it's not meant only for jams, and also performance can help with audio issues on web

[slender belfry]

(Speaking as someone who has banged their head against nphysics / rapier since 5 years)

[bitter sparrow]

no i agree

ive had my gripes with rapier

im kinda on the fence about only recommending avian

[slender belfry]

Yeah but you won't be running physics simulations that are complex enough to run into issues with Avian on Wasm builds anyways

[bitter sparrow]

they might not be complex but high-scale

[slender belfry]

Hmm, true

[bitter sparrow]

like last jam

[slender belfry]

Can I at least reorder them so that Avian is first?

[bitter sparrow]

no complaints there

[slender belfry]

@bitter sparrow https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/158

[bitter sparrow]

left some comments

i havent reviewed the last couple commits though

[slender belfry]

Agree with most of them. Fixing now.

[slender belfry]

Could you look at these two?

• https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/158/commits/8c20e05805f0624ed363483e80568955f87eef56
• https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/158/commits/177c0cbc3e53c4506a25acd3a30c2014cf057608

[bitter sparrow]

ok

sorry if my review is annoying 😬

being a lil picky

[slender belfry]

Nah I appreciate it 😄

If I did not want this level of quality review, I would have submitted a bigger PR 😛

Addressed everything

[bitter sparrow]

i'll see about dependi rq

[slender belfry]

thx

[bitter sparrow]

i wonder if it's because i'm on vs code 1.89 instead of 1.91

i'll have to do a full system update to test that out though

[slender belfry]

Don't see anything about VSCode versions in https://github.com/filllabs/dependi/blob/main/package-lock.json

But idk how VSCode extensions work

Ah wait

      "engines": {
        "vscode": "^1.87.0"
      }

So you should be seeing it 👀

Oh no, your nit bashed against my auto-merge 😄

[bitter sparrow]

ha. that's ok

[bitter sparrow]

interesting

[slender belfry]

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/159

[bitter sparrow]

@slender belfry https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/160

i like trying to make the near-oneliners fit on one line, but it's hard to tell until after changes are pushed :p

[slender belfry]

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/161

@bitter sparrow I would like to get your opinion before I continue writing.

[bitter sparrow]

ok 👀

looks reasonable. i'd try and decrease the header levels by 1 somehow

[slender belfry]

I like the split of "Pattern" / "Reasoning". I could make them just bold, but that's not really correct imo

[bitter sparrow]

i'm thinking maybe de-nest each pattern

[slender belfry]

How so?

[bitter sparrow]

so like ## Code structure

[slender belfry]

Ah, I see

That's fair, I'll try that

[bitter sparrow]

i'll be lenient on the PR adding the doc, as long as the high level makes sense

editing passes can optionally come after

also this doc is more of an optional read to use the template so it's not as critical

[slender belfry]

@bitter sparrow https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/162

[slender belfry]

I just remembered that that info had to also go somewhere

Note that I did not write about this being necessary on Windows since just last week someone found the issue in blake3 that caused recompiles and fixed it.

[bitter sparrow]

note + collapsible section is good

didn't know if that would render well

btw i'd be fine with announcing before the design doc is pushed

[slender belfry]

Is it alright to wait until that? I want to finish it in one go right now.

[bitter sparrow]

oh yeah for sure

[slender belfry]

👍

Do you want to do a cool gif in the meantime?

[bitter sparrow]

sure i can go for that

[slender belfry]

Show off the splash, the menu and the ducky moving around

I want to use that GIF for the Bevy Assets page ✨

[bitter sparrow]

i should make a GIF of the CI / CD tbh /j

[slender belfry]

😄

[hidden pond]

BTW I might try out the Jam template for TriJam if I get the time this weekend.

[slender belfry]

That'd be really really cool 😄

[bitter sparrow]

yea, will be great to see people try it out, maybe create issues / etc

[hidden pond]

I mean it's a 3 hour Game Jam hosted every weekend. Figured it would be a good test to see what else might be needed to get things up and running.

I'm in that intermediate area that I know enough to get in trouble, but there's still a lot I don't know.

[slender belfry]

You could also submit it to the assets page when you're ready. For the description, I was thinking of

A great way to get started on a new game — especially for a game jam!
Includes a basic project structure and automated deployments to itch.io.
Brought to you by the Bevy Jam working group.

[hidden pond]

So I figure I'm a good target to test the template out.

[bitter sparrow]

i'm not going to use this template for bevy jam 5 😄

[hidden pond]

It's nice and short, so I'm not spending too much time, 3 hours would be enough that it would probably reveal any shortcomes pretty fast. Where-as a longer Game Jam would both take longer...and any issues could just be worked over. It's in some ways a Microcosm of Bevy Jam.

[bitter sparrow]

but only because i have my own template that uses 3rd-party libraries and has a few more opinionated features

but the core is otherwise very similar. in part because i updated it recently

[hidden pond]

I too have my own template, but:

1. This needs some testing and a quick Game Jam to reveal some rough edges would be nice.
2. I don't actually know that much about the way the template is structured so I would be coming in with just slightly more knowledge than someone who is new to the template. And I happen to be in a good position for that.

Also TriJam is very sensitive to rough issues in your pipeline and failure to plan properly. If I can get something semi-decent in 3 hours with Bevy, we can more refine things.

[bitter sparrow]

yeah that would be a great test case

[hidden pond]

But yeah. sorry for derailing the convo a bit

[bitter sparrow]

nah derail away

im mostly watching stuff compile

[hidden pond]

(FWIW I also know what third party crates I'll be using, more or less, in addition to what is provided, as I imagine many people using the template will reach for third party crates to fill in some things. I also only have 3 hours, so additional crates are kinda...necessary in some areas)

[bitter sparrow]

hopefully using no 3rd-party crates in the template means that users can easily slot in their own deps

[hidden pond]

We will find out.

[bitter sparrow]

raw footage

[hidden pond]

I thought it was going to be CI doing stuff lol

[bitter sparrow]

oh no i forgot to record 15 minutes of CI for the timelapse gif 😩

[hidden pond]

Now you gotta do it again 😩 😩

[bitter sparrow]

:wearydrops: is crazy

[hidden pond]

Is that a good thing or?

[bitter sparrow]

good thing

tbh this would be nice with the css spinner

[hidden pond]

You mean the CSS Throbber? /jk

[bitter sparrow]

never heard it called that lol

[hidden pond]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throbber

😛

But yeah.

[slender belfry]

Idk why, but that term makes me feel uncomfortable 😄

Someone should probably sanity check that cargo-generate is still working

[hidden pond]

I will remove the link if you would like.

[slender belfry]

No no, it's alright 😄

[hidden pond]

Alright. Just wanted to offer, if you change your mind let me know.

I'll also spoiler the other usages of the word as well if you really want.

[slender belfry]

Nooooo it's not serious, no worries

I just never thought of an icon being able to "throb" instead of spin 😄

If you really want to do me a favor, you could check cargo generate 😛

[hidden pond]

Sure. Let me clean up some harddrive space really quick

[slender belfry]

I love it!

Doing a little break, brb

[hidden pond]

Cargo generate seems to be fine. There's a small issue with the itchio stuff where it gets formatted like:

#Comment this out to disable.# ITCH_TARGET: your-itch-username/shaboingus# The organization or author that owns the rights to the game. 
OWNER: 

But that should be fixable.

[bitter sparrow]

the gif

[hidden pond]

Beyond that little issue, cargo-generate works!

[slender belfry]

Thanks for checking 😄

I just tried to fix it, but the tool keeps insisting on cutting away the newlines

heck!

[hidden pond]

It's the {%- something %-} specifically the dashes.

[slender belfry]

Oooooh

So if I do this

{% if itch_username != "" %}

It should work?

[hidden pond]

Yes, but it would leave a blank line in its place

The dash before removes whitespace before that, and the dash after does the same but after it. So if you remove the last dash I think the newline issue should be resolved.

[slender belfry]

Thanks, fixed it now

But I also get USE_GIT_LFS: falsejobs: due to the same kind of issue 😄

fixing that as well

[bitter sparrow]

will need to abbreviate this to fit, so stripping it down to the first sentence, and maybe one extra little thing

was thinking to somehow mention that it's pure bevy, since that's the main differentiator

[slender belfry]

fixed

[slender belfry]

Good idea

[bitter sparrow]

description = "A great way to get started on a new game — especially for a game jam! Start simple with a pure Bevy template."

[slender belfry]

I do miss the part about the project structure and itch deployments

[bitter sparrow]

i would agree but every template description says that at this point 😄

windows, mac, linux, web releases

well 4/6 of them

[slender belfry]

Fair enough

[bitter sparrow]

basic project structure kinda implied by "start simple ..."

weakly

[slender belfry]

I guess my issue is that this doesn't communicate why this is more aligned with Bevy than "Random Bevy template #4928"

[bitter sparrow]

open to better wording, created pr: https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy-assets/pull/463

Start simple with a semi-official pure Bevy template.
?

a lil wordy

[slender belfry]

better

Does this fit?

"by the Bevy Jam working group"

At the end

[bitter sparrow]

ill check how that looks

[slender belfry]

We could also drop the entire "A great way to get started on a new game — especially for a game jam!"

[bitter sparrow]

it already didnt fit

[slender belfry]

"Start simple with a pure Bevy template brought to you by the Bevy Jam working group"

[bitter sparrow]

yeah we should drop this

[slender belfry]

That would fit

[slender belfry]

that's better!

[bitter sparrow]

hooray

[slender belfry]

I'll also need to change the description of Foxtrot to point people towards bevy_quickstart

Don't want people to try using Foxtrot for jams 👀

[bitter sparrow]

is it not meant for jams? :p

it does seem pretty big

[slender belfry]

I gave up on maintaining Wasm compatibility, and that is a must-have for jams

[bitter sparrow]

ahh, ok

[slender belfry]

I'm reordering widgets.rs to have pub stuff on top in this PR as that is what the design doc talks about

(And what a reader would care about)

[bitter sparrow]

hm, okay. personally i would also move trait Spawn into its own file, util/patch.rs, if this was my template

but we only have one patch

imo we should focus on getting w/e we need through that's blocking announcement

and more work can be done after the announcement / whenever ofc

[bitter sparrow]

but i'd quick approve this ofc

[slender belfry]

agreed, that's why I'm just reordering code in the same file

[slender belfry]

what is patch?

[bitter sparrow]

extension traits that "patch" missing functionality in upstream bevy

[slender belfry]

Ah, that makes sense

[bitter sparrow]

usually with a link to an issue

[slender belfry]

@hidden pond would you mind going through cargo generate again but this time do the whole shebang, including releasing onto itch.io?

Would be very embarassing if that didn't work 😅

If you don't have time, I (or @bitter sparrow if they want) can do it as well

[hidden pond]

I do not have an itch.io account, otherwise I would.

[slender belfry]

Mind creating one?

[hidden pond]

Sure, I'll have to do it tomorrow though as I'm about to head off to bed.

If that's alright.

[slender belfry]

No worries! Since we want to do the announcement soon, we'll just do it ourselves then 🙂

Sleep well!

@bitter sparrow do you have time?

[hidden pond]

Sorry about not being able to help.

[slender belfry]

Hey, you showed me what those magic - did in the template

I would have no idea how google for my issue, haha

so you saved me a ton of time ❤️

[bitter sparrow]

maybe. i'm trying to figure out Dependi 😡

[slender belfry]

😄

[unreal narwhal]

I can ship something to itch if y'all need someone to

[hidden pond]

My pleasure. I actually tried to figure out why there was - in the commands when I was working on the template initially and it came up blank. I only found it when looking up how to remove random blank lines from generated files lol.

[slender belfry]

Ooooh yes please!

[unreal narwhal]

current cargo generate instructions results in you being on a branch called cargo-generate

maybe a git checkout -b main in the readme?

I haven't looked at what branches the ci scripts are checking yet

[slender belfry]

Oooh right, that's an open issue on cargo-generate, I remember

[slender belfry]

Yep, I'll add that

[slender belfry]

They all expect main

[slender belfry]

git switch -c main is the slightly more modern variant FYI 🙂

[unreal narwhal]

I have forgotten about switch since the day I read those release notes lmao

[slender belfry]

Good catch!

[unreal narwhal]

need to get that into my fingers

[slender belfry]

I also did, and then I got repeatedly shamed for it at my past workplace 😅

It worked though, haha

[unreal narwhal]

yeah thanks for the reminder

[dawn crag]

https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy-website/pull/1561 would give the template a small boost in the asset rankings 🙂

[slender belfry]

Would you look at that, you've just received a totally impartial, unbiased approval

[bitter sparrow]

gonna make my crates brokenly depend on bevy 0.15 to take the top spot on the list

[slender belfry]

Oh wow @bitter sparrow look at https://bevyengine.org/assets/#templates

It looks like the ducky is walking on the black bar added by the design 😄

[bitter sparrow]

for me it's a bit higher

[slender belfry]

Yeah a bit

That's artistic direction

[bitter sparrow]

me updating the spawn code to place ducky lower and re-recording gif:

[bitter sparrow]

ok i see the pr is actually sorting "semver-compatible" followed by "non-semver-compatible" so i can't cheese the system like this

[unreal narwhal]

you must provide a stand-in html file when choosing html on itch

I believe anyway. I'm going to run the release script soon to see if it fails

[bitter sparrow]

the behavior i'm expecting:

• this error message exists before and after running the release workflow
• have to go into project settings and mark the web build as "run in web" or w/e, and then it'll work

[slender belfry]

I'll add that documentation to my current PR as well as soon as @unreal narwhal reports back

Nearly done with the design doc btw

[bitter sparrow]

this specifically

[unreal narwhal]

will let y'all know when it finishes 😆

[bitter sparrow]

i'm predicting 15 minutes for a fresh windows build heh

[unreal narwhal]

I think it was 10 for the tests, so about right

assuming tests were nix

[bitter sparrow]

yea tests run on ubuntu-latest

[slender belfry]

Design doc is ready: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/161

Pretty happy with how it turned out 🙂

Let me know if I missed something important

[bitter sparrow]

will review

[slender belfry]

I will, in order to dogfood how easy it is to plug in third-party crates in practice

[unreal narwhal]

it feels easy to miss things in the github release section

[slender belfry]

Could you elaborate?

[unreal narwhal]

if you use cargo-generate you get to skip sections, and while I was doing the post-setup I had to find the "do a release" section in the main readme, then read through all of the release md skipping sections.

things like "the version must be a git tag'd commit that starts with v" are easy to miss

[slender belfry]

Oh, good point!

[bitter sparrow]

isn't cargo-generate the main flow? think i'm missing something

[unreal narwhal]

I was about to tag it without a v before I went to check because I've hit that problem in past lives

[unreal narwhal]

for the workflows.md file, it lists out all the variables that have already been set by cargo generate, for example

[bitter sparrow]

ah okay. that's true. i had the thought that maybe cargo generate shouldn't set any of those variables

if it's not going to set all of them and you have to look in that file anyways

[slender belfry]

If you name your itch.io project the same as your crate, you don't need to look in there

[unreal narwhal]

mine seem to have be set correctly

I didn't edit any of these

[slender belfry]

Yeah I see how that gives the vibe of "This is irrelevant for you, you already have these, go skip"

[bitter sparrow]

hm let me take a look at the release.yaml template rq

hm okay. technically the values we're populating it with may not be the values you want

like your itch.io username may not be what you want to set for OWNER

they're all reasonable defaults though

[slender belfry]

(that's only some silly macOS requirement anyways)

[bitter sparrow]

BINARY: {{crate_name}} is fine unless you use a src/bin/ folder, which the template does not by default, so that's fine

probably keeping the templating in there is reasonable. so docs should be clearer

[unreal narwhal]

yeah imo changing anything here is off the happy path

[bitter sparrow]

we could put this section last? ;P

[unreal narwhal]

yeah, any additional info can be deprioritized. details/summary or "at the end" or whatever

[bitter sparrow]

it also looks scary

[unreal narwhal]

its a lot of detail reading

[slender belfry]

On it

@bitter sparrow @unreal narwhal https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/163

Added a bit of wording as well to make sure people don't name their project bevy-jam-5 and their itch page bubble-popper-deluxe and then get confused why it does not work

Ideally, I'd like to add an option to cargo-generate

Enter your itch.io page name. Leave blank to use the project name

That would only show up when you have also added an itch.io user name

But I'm too tired to implement that rn 😅

[unreal narwhal]

maacos failure

[unreal narwhal]

yeah, in an ideal world there's plenty of time and energy lol

[bitter sparrow]

mm

so the source file of the mv doesn't exist ig

what's your crate name?

[bitter sparrow]

hm i wonder if the binary has hyphens instead of underscores

[unreal narwhal]

doing a local build now to find out

[slender belfry]

would be whacky

Thanks for helping out @unreal narwhal 🙂

[bitter sparrow]

it's possible the conversion from - to _ only applies to the crate name so it can be used as a dependency as use bevy_flock::etc

[unreal narwhal]

happy to help

[bitter sparrow]

but not the binary name because there's technically no need

we set name = "{{project-name}} in Cargo.toml, so setting BINARY: {{project-name}} would be an easy fix if that's how it works

[unreal narwhal]

confirmed dash issue

cargo generate has snake-casing functions doesn't it?

[bitter sparrow]

i think this should work as a fix, i'll make a PR

[unreal narwhal]

yeah

https://cargo-generate.github.io/cargo-generate/templates/builtin_placeholders.html

[bitter sparrow]

ah

https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/165

[slender belfry]

@unreal narwhal could you manually set the BINARY variable in the release workflow to the kebab-cased-version and re-run the release?

[unreal narwhal]

yep, doing it now

[slender belfry]

@hidden pond this might be something for you when you get up, if you feel like it: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/issues/164

[unreal narwhal]

macos build succeeded. just waiting on windows

[slender belfry]

heck yeah!

[unreal narwhal]

will I have to do this for every zip that's uploaded?

[bitter sparrow]

just the web one

oh ic what you mean

no, just one time ever

[unreal narwhal]

yes, every web zip that's uploaded

[bitter sparrow]

it uses itch.io "channels" so itch knows that the next release to the "web" channel is a new version of the same thing

[unreal narwhal]

big duck

but all seems to be working

[slender belfry]

Nice!

[bitter sparrow]

fantastic. so should be good once the final README pr is through explaining the missing steps

[unreal narwhal]

mac-native working too via download

[slender belfry]

This makes me happy 😄

[unreal narwhal]

would be nice to do signing and stuff for the next jam if it can be figured out

[slender belfry]

@unreal narwhal does this explain stuff better? https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart/pull/163

[unreal narwhal]

right now you have to do the right-click dance

[bitter sparrow]

what do you mean by that?

and signing

(i use linux)

[bitter sparrow]

ah okay

[slender belfry]

The classic macOS experience

[bitter sparrow]

tbf it is malware

[unreal narwhal]

macos throws supa-scurry warnings when you try to open non-signed dmgs these days

so you have to right-click to bypass it

[slender belfry]

Yeah it's sketchy how we ask for microphone permissions 😛

[bitter sparrow]

sketchier when no permissions are asked for

[slender belfry]

(https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/issues/13989)

[unreal narwhal]

I imagine downloading random unsigned binaries is part of why wasm gets way more play in jams

[slender belfry]

No other way to get access to the microphone on macOS

@pyrious, @miniaczq, @chanku and I of the Bevy Jam working group have put together a nice little template for the jam: https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart
It includes a basic project structure and automated itch.io uploads. You can play it at https://the-bevy-flock.itch.io/bevy-quickstart

If you use it, let us know how it went! Feel free to open issues about anything that is unclear or missing.

[bitter sparrow]

Hello Bevy Jammers!

We at the #1258521739395203174 working group have finished preparing the Bevy Quickstart template for the upcoming jam. It's a simple pure-Bevy template so you can add your own 3rd-party dependencies on top.

i was typing 😡 /j

[slender belfry]

Huehuehue

[unreal narwhal]

when are y'all thinking of making the announcement?

[slender belfry]

Literally now

[unreal narwhal]

cool

[slender belfry]

@unreal narwhal give us your impartial opinion on which text to use

[bitter sparrow]

yeah timezone may not be great, but people should have time to check it out before the jam

[slender belfry]

I'll update the cargo-generate branch in the meantime

[bitter sparrow]

oh my msg is unfinished also 😄

[slender belfry]

Also: need to add the cool gif to the announcement

[unreal narwhal]

I would avoid value-judgements or words like "simple", "easy", etc

calling something simple and then a newer dev finding it not so simple will make that dev feel things that are not necessarily positive things

[slender belfry]

That's fair

[bitter sparrow]

Hello Bevy Jammers!

@hidden pond, @agile dirge, @slender belfry and @bitter sparrow of the #1258521739395203174 working group have finished preparing the Bevy Quickstart template for the upcoming jam. It includes automated itch.io uploads (https://the-bevy-flock.itch.io/bevy-quickstart) and a project structure that we think will start you off on the right foot; plus it only depends on Bevy, so you can add your own 3rd-party dependencies on top.

If you try it out, let us know how it goes! Feel free to open an issue for anything that's unclear or missing.

[slender belfry]

You're saying "try it out" twice

[bitter sparrow]

true

o whoops

[slender belfry]

And I think pinging the others for credit is nice 🙂

But lgtm otherwise

@unreal narwhal would you replace "basic" with "guiding" or something like that?

[bitter sparrow]

the bevy assets description says "simple" still

mmm

it says "start simple with ..."

so maybe that's fine

not "this is a simple template"

ig still not great

[unreal narwhal]

"starting point" or "bevy-only" kind of wording

[slender belfry]

"basic" as in "basic project structure"

[unreal narwhal]

It includes a suggested project structure

[slender belfry]

That sounds like there is no structure, only the suggestion of one 😄

"An example project structure"?

[unreal narwhal]

it includes a project structure that we think will start you off on the right foot

[slender belfry]

that's great!

[bitter sparrow]

-Start simple with a pure-Bevy template made by the Bevy Jam working group!
+Start fast with a pure-Bevy template made by the Bevy Jam working group!

[slender belfry]

Is a "Bevy Jammer" something like a cell phone jammer for Bevy?

[bitter sparrow]

yes

[unreal narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/bob-marley-jammin-gif-18181540

bev jammin

[bitter sparrow]

"an initial project structure" good too?

[slender belfry]

@unreal narwhal's suggestion sounds more human imo

[bitter sparrow]

🐸

[slender belfry]

🐜

[unreal narwhal]

from the perspective of "avoiding easy/basic/etc" yeah

[slender belfry]

Also post it to #crates, templates do get posted there even though they're technically not a crate

[unreal narwhal]

did the dashes fix make it into the repo? I wasn't watching closely enough

[slender belfry]

yep 🙂

[unreal narwhal]

sweet

[slender belfry]

Pretty much 20 seconds after you reported them, hehe

[unreal narwhal]

hehe

speedy

[bitter sparrow]

edited

er typo

Hello Bevy Jammers!

@chanku, @miniaczq, @janhohenheim and @pyrious of the #"0.14 Bevy Jam" working group have finished preparing the [Bevy Quickstart](https://github.com/TheBevyFlock/bevy_quickstart) template for the upcoming jam.

It includes automated itch.io uploads (https://the-bevy-flock.itch.io/bevy-quickstart) and a project structure that we think will start you off on the right foot; plus it only depends on Bevy, so you can add your own 3rd-party dependencies on top.

If you try it out, let us know how it goes! Feel free to open an issue for anything that's unclear or missing.

[slender belfry]

Add a newline before "It includes"

And don't forget the GIF 😄

[bitter sparrow]

ah yea

[slender belfry]

Looks good though!

@unreal narwhal what do you think?