#Daedalus's Deckbuilding Domain -- Help Appreciated!

1 messages · Page 9 of 1

static spire
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(never call a lady old though 😠 teysa can still kick ur ass at over 100 years old /s)

finite heart
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I love Teysa

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She is my girl, playing both the 3 and 4 mana version in my lurrus deck

static spire
finite heart
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there are only 8 crime sources in that deck though

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feels very low to justify a crime payoff

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like the fear i have is that its just gonna be a feast or famine card

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where it only helps you if you are already winning

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because you need to have very specific cards be functioning in the moment for it to do anything

static spire
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That's possible, I'll grant

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Given that my entire gameplan involves "Teysa exiles stuff" I'm not too concerned

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But my excitement level is

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Marchesa > Hapatra > Teysa > Araumi

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I'll 1000% be putting it in Marchesa and Hapatra

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70% (?) in Teysa

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50% in Araumi

finite heart
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I mean for Crime.deck this should be bonkers

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can i see the hapatra deck?

static spire
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Though it does need a few tweaks and updates, I'm not super happy with the current build

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I count 27 crime sources there

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excluding Hapatra herself

finite heart
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i only count 17

static spire
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Grist, Karn, Cankerbloom, Deathrite, Endurance, Fume Spitter, Generous Patron, Grim Hireling, Bowmasters, Outland Liberator, Dilfosaurus, Yawgmoth, Reanimate (in a pinch), Trophy, Rollick, Force of Vigor, Grim Affliction, Lethal Scheme, Virulent Wound, Soul Cauldron, Longbow, Blowfly, Carpet, Earthcraft, Boseiju, Forbidden Orchard, Shizo -- twenty-seven and a half

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I count 15 in Teysa btw (excluding Teysa herself)

finite heart
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Grist
Cranker
Deathrite
Endurance
Fume
5
Gix
Grim
Bow
Outland
Spitting
10
Yaw
Reanimate
Trophy
Rolick
Vigo
15
Grim
Sheme
Wound
Caul
Longbow
20
Blowfly
Earth
Bosej
Forbid
Shizo
25

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i misscounted

static spire
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You missed Karn and a couple others, but yeah!

finite heart
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yeah karn and carpet i missed

static spire
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Truthfully, if I put this in Teysa, I'm adding OG Eiganjo and Shizo

finite heart
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Kaya, Eternal, Ugin, Grim, Bow, Yaw, Beckon, Rollick, Sheme, Attrition, Eiganjo, Kor thats 12, i did ignore lands and Ugin on purpose on the first count and missed Eternal

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Ugin just feels a bit cheap to include

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cause like 8 mana is a lot

static spire
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Fair enough

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Though he's often 4 mana

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(Arena Rector best girl)

static spire
finite heart
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Kaya Spirit Justice doesnt target, neither do call and cause, they all chose

static spire
finite heart
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oh yeah i missed th eminus

static spire
finite heart
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i just say "you control"

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why does it say choose and target

jovial tinsel
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[[agathas soul cauldron]] in marchesa? haven’t seen the list yet but the card’s messed up and gets you free crimes

timber mesaBOT
static spire
finite heart
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the first two are on me, but the that one ok thats oracle

jovial tinsel
finite heart
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My adhd brain goes "word found, rest can be ignored, go next"

static spire
finite heart
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thats fair

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does bug me though

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i hate being wrong

static spire
finite heart
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you dont seem to be running much tutors in the marchessa deck, so i feel like vilis is gonna be dead more often then not

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Also why is toxrill here? like its annoying if its allowed to stay out, but it doesnt really crime

static spire
static spire
finite heart
static spire
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A dead card in hand is regrettable but not the END of the world

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Esp since the amount of removal and control should stretch out games (pending testing)

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and since I can hit lands if needed with Marchesa

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so it might be possible to drop Vilis on curve in a real pinch

finite heart
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yeah but you are asking for potential cuts for the crime flashback, so i am just focusing first on cards that either dont crime or are pottentially dead as suggestions

static spire
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Yeah fair!

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I'm hitting the "every cards is my beloved BABY" mode now

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which means I need to hear that kind of stuff 😂

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"kill your darlings" and so on

finite heart
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dont we all when we managed to get it down to 100 finally

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Urabrask seems like the best cut though

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15 instants and sorceries total that can trigger him in the first place

static spire
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm

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he auto-crimes on spell cast, though, and pays for the "crime tax"

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so I'm cautiously optimistic about "I can find more instants/sorceries when I cast the first"

finite heart
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yeah he does crime on cast, but your instants and sorceries really arent advantage cards, you have a total of 1 card that gets you more cards in all of your instants and sorceries

jovial tinsel
finite heart
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soul cauldron is in her deck

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Persist might also be a decent cut

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12 out of 30 of your creatures are legends

static spire
static spire
jovial tinsel
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are there any thrill of possibility type cards that crime

finite heart
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Birgi is just here to finance the crime tax right?

sage cloak
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Is this not just weird [[Toshiro Umezawa]]?

timber mesaBOT
finite heart
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You can cast any spell

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not just instant

static spire
sage cloak
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I see

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So better Toshiro

static spire
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Massively better Toshiro

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I think Kaervek is cEDH viable for sure

finite heart
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only downside is black only

sage cloak
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In the cz that won’t matter

static spire
finite heart
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they are, but color locks are still relevant drawbacks taht need to be agknowledged

static spire
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How dare this set KEEP giving me more Marchesa toys 😂

finite heart
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that just seems to expensive for the inconsistent crime

static spire
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It's moderately decent for the reanimation

zealous ferry
static spire
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there's been almost nothing for my existing decks tbf -- beyond this Kaervek

zealous ferry
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I found a combo piece for kaervek

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[[Merrow Bonegnawer]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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I'll pass that on to my various brewing friends

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that's brilliant, thank you so much @zealous ferry

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I think that needs to go into Marchesa tbh

sage cloak
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100%

static spire
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Marchesa is on less of the "haha this card is just in there for crime triggers" stuff than Kaervek would be

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But a 1-mana creature which can easily crime several times AND serves as reasonably useful GY hate?

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sold

zealous ferry
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Right?

static spire
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the spice must flow

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spicemaster mxkale, official

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(Also, god, we crossed 8000 posts in this thread now)

zealous ferry
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I was thinking about free crime cards and poking at [[merieke]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
zealous ferry
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And just realized should check the old eventide color cards

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[[Cinder pyromancer]] is the red one in the cycle

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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My deck’s more black than red anyway so the black one works great

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Plus since a bunch of crime is GY hate it helps make Living Death asymmetric

sage cloak
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Anything that gives us repeated little bits of advantage

static spire
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The list is slowly coming together, I'll know more after testing it

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But I'm liking the theory of what it does -- use crime triggers on sacrifice and graveyard hate, to make Living Death and friends asymmetrical

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While also, of course, gaining free advantage on various removal spells

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Are there any really, really good reanimation spells held back by the potential to give dangerous things to opponents?

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Beyond, like, [[Exhume]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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Hm, [[Balthor the Defiled]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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[[Twilight's Call]] I suppose

timber mesaBOT
jovial tinsel
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[[chainer dementia]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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Balthor + [[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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that's disgusting

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and I love it

zealous ferry
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It's true of chained too

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Chainer

static spire
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True!

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Heck, are we accidentally making a Cauldron list here too??

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I could put [[Kozilek, the Great Distortion]] back in

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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he's a DIRTY ability if I can untether it from the creature itself

static spire
# zealous ferry Chainer

okay, so I'm hearing that this deck kinda wants a Cauldron build (which also means Nooze of course)

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since so many activated abilities are crimes, and GOOD ones at that

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I'll fork the list for now, see how that changes things

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Eventually I plan to tighten up the list enough to add the tutors back in

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Which would make all this quite a bit easier

jovial tinsel
static spire
jovial tinsel
static spire
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But a card can be a crime trigger enabler until I get enough crime triggers to hit a thing I want to try and win from

jovial tinsel
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exactly

static spire
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A combo piece which plays a value role until the combo happens is something I like

static spire
jovial tinsel
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the new magda is cracked with cauldron

static spire
zealous ferry
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[[Magda|otj]] (I have same question)

timber mesaBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/otj/133/magda-the-hoardmaster

Magda, the Hoardmaster <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Dwarf Berserker
Whenever you commit a crime, create a tapped Treasure token. This ability triggers only once each turn. (Targeting opponents, anything they control, and/or cards in their graveyards is a crime.)
Sacrifice three Treasures: Create a 4/4 red Scorpion Dragon creature token with flying and haste. Activate only as a sorcery.
2/2

jovial tinsel
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maybe less so in commander actually

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cauldron gets a guaranteed trigger every turn cycle, the ability is good under cauldron

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probably needs more treasure generation in the deck to be good in commander

finite heart
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i am just now realising you are going rakdos only in your cards, is there a reason for that?

static spire
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2-color gives more slots for jank

finite heart
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Fair enough, its not like i am one to complain about uncesseray deck building restrictions, would argue though that dimir seems to be better then rakdos for this

sage cloak
sage cloak
finite heart
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the red cards just dont add that much comparativly imo, also Flusterstorm alone is already a really good crime enabler and counter spells in general are always a crime which fuels the marchessa

sage cloak
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I had good reasoning a while ago, can’t seen to find it right this second

static spire
static spire
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And Breach

finite heart
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crime doesnt work on copies?

static spire
# finite heart crime doesnt work on copies?

In the mechanics document, crimes are defined as the following:

You commit a crime as you cast a spell, activate an ability, or put a triggered ability on the stack that targets one or more of the following:

  • An opponent
  • A spell or ability an opponent controls
  • A permanent an opponent controls
  • A card in an opponent's graveyard

If a spell or ability doesn't target anything on that list, it's not a crime, even if it targets something like an opponent's card in exile or has a sinister-sounding name that would be a felony in many jurisdictions.

This means that -- pending official rulings, to be clear -- something like Grapeshot will not mega-trigger crimes, because storm is neither casting a spell nor a triggered ability which itself has a target.

finite heart
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terrible reminder text then

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Targeting opponents, anything they control, and/or cards in their graveyards is a crime.

glacial cradle
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It's simplified reminder text that misses one thing

static spire
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I'm sloooooowly figuring out my theme here -- I think my goal is to play control with cheap crimes where possible, and reanimate large things which themselves commit crimes or reanimate other things or serve my general reanimator strategy (with a SLIGHT focus on activated abilities where plausible)

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I want most or all of my reanimation targets (ie, any creature above 3 mana, more or less) to be snowballing with crime/control value

vast vale
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Legit going nuts rn in my own thread on same card

static spire
static spire
finite heart
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will check it out tomorrow

sage cloak
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Just expected reduction value?

static spire
sage cloak
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fair enough

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Tbh I have no more notes that don't involve silly speculation, it's pretty solidly built

static spire
green plover
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I'll take a gander at it myself tomorrow.

static spire
finite heart
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I would include: Slaughter Pact, Ravenous Trap, Imp's Mischief, Tibalt's Trickery and Maze of Ith
For: 1 Mountain, At Knifepoint, Pile On, Keen Duelist, Black Market Connections

static spire
finite heart
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Maze of Ith is just another land crime payoff that is also repeatable.

Slaughter Pact works regardless of if you have a board or not and preferably i want my removal to work in statements of disadvantage so i prefer it over Pile On.

You dont really have protection outside of deflecting swat and spellskite, where tibalts trickery and imp's mischief slot in nicely.

Your graveyard hate is rather sparse, like i get that a reanimator list wants graves to be there for you, but if you are playing against a graveyard deck too cards like living death and balthor will also fuel opponents and you really wanna be able to interrupt a reanimator push at instant speed and ravenous trap allows that if any 3 cards entered a grave this turn for an opponent which does not care how, so any instant sorcery, mill etc.

At Knifepoint just doesnt really seem to synergize that well, to few outlaws in your deck and the one 1/1 per turn if you crime dont compensate enough to make it worth it imo.

Black Market Connections is to slow i feel like, the treasure generation only starts the next turn and you cant utilize the shapshifters that well so it feels pretty much just like a phyrexian arena.

Keen Duelist is just very wierdly timed for what the deck wants, if you play it on curve it triggers before you get Marchessa out so it only crimes for you 2 turns after you get it down, which means you draw opponents 2 cards for 1 crime, and if you delay it behind curve you could just play a different crime payoff instead that doesnt give your opponent cards for free, you are a control deck you wanna beat people in card advantage so giving them cards just makes your gameplan worse.

static spire
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I’ve found At Knifepoint to be pretty awesome honestly — if nothing else, it helps chump block since this deck can draw some salt based on early tests (given the high density of removal). It’s also great with any free sac outlets (esp Yawgmoth) since that’s a guaranteed crime per turn!

This deck is very mana and card hungry, I really like BMC — also because it helps break parity with stuff like The Abyss (or the Magus of that name).

This deck is veeeeery mana hungry, so I think I’d rather do Desert over Maze if I need another crime enabler on a land? 🤔

You are probably right on the rest though! Hmm… I’ll think on those, thank you so much for taking an in depth look 😍

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(On the topic of GY hate, previous builds of this deck have definitely run more. There’s a lot of amazing GY hate which does crimes, but they mostly got shuffled to the sideboard when I was tightening the list…)

finite heart
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the desert one works too yeah

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I would just look at better mana generation then BMC

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1 treasure per cylce is kinda meh

static spire
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I can’t use Coffers unfortunately — yes I’m on Urborg but I have no way to tutor it

finite heart
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[[Cryot if Agadeem]]

timber mesaBOT
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No card found for “Cryot if Agadeem”

static spire
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And my land base has too few Swamps otherwise

finite heart
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[[Crypt of Agadeem]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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Man, if that card counted ALL creatures in GY I’d maybe run it

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Black stuff only, though, and tapped is rough

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That being said I did neglect to consider [[Songs of the Damned]] 🤔

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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I was considering [[Black Market]], but I can’t stand how that card comes down so late AND needs time to start accumulating counters

timber mesaBOT
finite heart
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its good

static spire
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I’m not convinced by that honestly — 21 hits means that I need to have milled 15+ cards to break even on the ability (even ignoring reanimation removing things from GY)

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I tried running it in my old Araumi list with a MUCH harder self mill theme AND more black creatures, and it still didn’t work right

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Huh

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What about [[Matzalantli]] though?

timber mesaBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/lci/256/matzalantli-the-great-door-the-core

Matzalantli, the Great Door <:mana3:292901508771610624>

Legendary Artifact
manat: Draw a card, then discard a card.
mana4, manat: Transform Matzalantli, the Great Door. Activate only if there are four or more permanent types among cards in your graveyard. (Artifact, battle, creature, enchantment, land, and planeswalker are permanent types.)

The Core
Legendary Land
(Transforms from Matzalantli.)
Fathomless descent — manat: Add X mana of any one color, where X is the number of permanent cards in your graveyard.
Centuries ago, under siege from the Mycotyrant, the Oltec sealed the Core off from the world... until Huatli's party arrived.

finite heart
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i do love great door

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currently trying it out in mothman

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looks good

static spire
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Looting (at a mediocre rate but still), and this deck might be grindy enough to make the flip work

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[[tinybones joins up]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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Aww, this is legendary creatures only

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Boo

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Okay, next question is whether I can easily hit four permanent types

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Creature and land are trivial

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Enchantment and artifact are harder

finite heart
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how much face do you hit in testing? cause if you do hit face often Professional Face-Breaker is always a welcome sight

static spire
finite heart
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Dismember is also a good removal choice i think

static spire
finite heart
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the difference is that Kaervek can recur Dismember

static spire
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but I'd rather run other black removal at that point (Slaughter Pact??) since paying 10 life to kill two things is... rough

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I know life is a resource, but I want a good return on investment FOR my resources 😂

finite heart
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That is fair

static spire
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Okay, for now I've cut Fury/Grief/Chainer in favor of [[Vadmir New Blood]], [[Tinybones the Pickpocket]], and [[Reaper from the Abyss]]

timber mesaBOT
finite heart
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Chainer seemed like one of the best includes

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Crime reanimation thats repeatable

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I do agree with Tinybones being awesome though

static spire
finite heart
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thats interesting

static spire
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If I don’t have a sacrifice outlet, his “exile all Nightmares on death” is really really brutal

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The one time I got him, he ate spot removal and even though I had other reanimation in hand all my best things went to exile

finite heart
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I would only ever use it on opponents stuff

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still gonna upgrade a spot removal too more, but it just forces them to exile their own best creatures

static spire
finite heart
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i would atleast test it

static spire
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Okay, he's back in for now!

static spire
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Trying [[Rakdos Joins Up]] over [[Dread Return]] -- sounds weird, I know, but I'm not confident I have enough token generators to consistently hit 3 creatures I'm willing to sac

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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Plus hey, new cards! And this deck is stuffed with legendary creatures for some reason

sage cloak
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Not to mention RJU lets you commit more crimes

static spire
#

Crime density rising ❤️

sage cloak
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I feel bad but I pivoted hard from Obeka haha

sage cloak
static spire
timber mesaBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/otj/215/laughing-jasper-flint

Laughing Jasper Flint <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Lizard Rogue
Creatures you control but don't own are Mercenaries in addition to their other types.
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top X cards of target opponent's library, where X is the number of outlaws you control. Until end of turn, you may cast spells from among those cards, and mana of any type can be spent to cast those spells.
4/3

sage cloak
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I just love that he requires no effort to steal your opponent's stuff

static spire
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paying the actual costs can be sorta hard

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I wish he said "until next turn"

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because then you could steal counterspells

sage cloak
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I built [[evelyn covetous]] and she was so slow and useless.. having to work to steal opponent's stuff was hard asf

timber mesaBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/snc/184/evelyn-the-covetous

Evelyn, the Covetous <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manaub:292901509056692224><:manab:292901508872273920><:manabr:292901508939382784>

Legendary Creature — Vampire Rogue
Flash
Whenever Evelyn, the Covetous or another Vampire enters the battlefield under your control, exile the top card of each player's library with a collection counter on it.
Once each turn, you may play a card from exile with a collection counter on it if it was exiled by an ability you controlled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast it.
2/5

sage cloak
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I would not at all be surprised to mill someone out in this deck

static spire
sage cloak
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I don't insult her, I just couldn't solve her in a way I wanted to

static spire
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My Evelyn deck is pretty vicious for sure

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Scam is the way

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but anyway!

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Jasper does seem super cool

sage cloak
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I tried building it as clones, and the average clone being 4 mv KILLED me

static spire
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so I want to shove him in here too 😂

sage cloak
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Honestly do it

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At the very least he commits a crime and is a [[outpost siege]] for 3 mv

timber mesaBOT
sage cloak
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My only downside is that he can't play your opponent's lands so it made me sad

static spire
sage cloak
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I don't even think you even need to consider that

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I haev 6 outlaws in the deck

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And I'm 100% certain my opponent's creatures will get me there

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It's a big ol' snowball

static spire
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I'm still counting 😂

sage cloak
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Check the one I made, I synthesized the decklist from "cast from exile" and theft decks in rakdos

jovial tinsel
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your commander + jasper is 2 cards per upkeep + another from your deck for 1 mana

sage cloak
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Holy moly

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When you put it that way, that's sexy

jovial tinsel
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that’s not a low floor

sage cloak
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The only downside I foresee is that it sits in the same slot as marchesa

jovial tinsel
#

as in curve?

static spire
#
  • 6 rogues
  • 1 assassin
  • 1 mercenary (plus 1 card which rapidly makes mercenary tokens)
  • 2 warlocks
  • 1 pirate
  • 1 changeling

And that's excluding my commander. I think I'll mostly be fine 😂

static spire
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you want to drop her with 1 mana up to pay for a crime

jovial tinsel
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what’s the changeling

static spire
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because she's just vanilla if you can't pay 1

static spire
timber mesaBOT
green plover
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So how's the Marchesa deck coming along? I promised to check it out.

jovial tinsel
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ah

static spire
sage cloak
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Marchesa is sick as hell

static spire
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Hold on, lemme scan and see if there's any OTHER fun legends I really want

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This set has SO many spectacular crime payoffs and enablers (for obvious reasons) that I'm playing at least 99% Thunder Junction theme

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Here's a list of ALL legendaries which commit crimes btw

sage cloak
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Thunder junction constructed ftw

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This set is a really big banger

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Like, almost completely as a whole

jovial tinsel
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there are like 6 legends i’m giving a side eye to

green plover
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Mmmm! Very interesting choices across the board.

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Amongst the Legendary Creatures.

sage cloak
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It's a lot of cool designs

green plover
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But yeah Thunder Junction seems a lot more diverse than Murders.

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Coming close to Lost Caverns level of hype and dynamic designs.

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If not past it.

sage cloak
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Discover kinda knocked some points off the set for me

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"Hey what if cascade but WAY better, more repeatable, and the downside of running counterspells and x spells is completely nullified?"

green plover
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Then yeah, deifnitely passed it for me too!

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Though my girl Amalia and boi Malcolm, Alluring were fierce.

static spire
#

[[Erebos, Bleak-Hearted]]
[[Grenzo, Havoc Raiser]]
[[Judith, the Scourge Diva]]
[[Rafael, Fiendish Savior]]
[[Krav, the Unredeemed]]
[[Ayara, Widow of the Realms]]
[[Lobelia Sackville-Baggins]]
[[Nezumi Graverobber]]
[[Tetzimok, Primal Death]]
[[Mastermind Plum]]

sage cloak
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Amalia is cool, and Malcolm has made it into a deck of mine (and several online decklists, including one of his own)

sage cloak
static spire
static spire
sage cloak
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I think trying to account for legendaries might be scope creep

static spire
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Agreed

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I'm just saying it's a neat synergy which happened by accident

sage cloak
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Like, at best I'd include [[relic of legends]] to be able to tap marchesa to pay for her own ability

timber mesaBOT
static spire
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That's... a good idea potentially actually

sage cloak
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But past that you're stretching

sage cloak
static spire
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Notably, it's another way to get my other color when needed

sage cloak
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Yep!~

static spire
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generally I prefer my curve to be something like "T2 Talisman to give me my colors, 1-mana crime enabler for next turn, T3 untap with 4 mana, Marchesa plus crime tax"

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but Relic isn't bad, it's an idea I'm intrigued by

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Especially since I'm on 14 legendaries plus my commander -- without any bias towards wanting to include them, to be clear

green plover
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I agree Relic is great for this more Legends theme.

sage cloak
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I wouldn't even say just for a legends theme

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It "taps" for two mana when you otherwise wouldn't be able to to pay for marchesa's ability at the very least

finite heart
#

I have been thinking about Jasper the problem i see is him being an upkeep trigger so you only get the crime trigger the turn after marchessa hits

sage cloak
finite heart
#

No but Marchessa is

static spire
sage cloak
#

True

#

I don't think he is, but he is fantastic value

finite heart
#

I think whats gonna happen is you play him T3, t4 you drop marchessa, then somone will remove marchessa and leave you dry

static spire
sage cloak
finite heart
green plover
#

I mean I feel like Marchesa would be underestimated from people not 100% certain of the effectiveness of committing a crime.

sage cloak
#

the good thing about Jasper though is that he'll do a lot for you whether Marchesa is out or not

finite heart
sage cloak
#

You're exiling your opponent's library, perhaps stealing value cards, and also getting more outlaws to fuel himself

#

So honestly it's lose lose for someone removing one of those two, because you're getting value regardless

#

I'd personally remove Jasper because he snowballs and won't come back on his own like Marchesa would

static spire
#

Speaking of Jasper, @sage cloak -- I think you need four outlaws for him to properly start rolling

#

because that's the point where you can assume that you'll most likely hit at least one creature from topdeck

#

which begins the spiral of "each thing I cast makes the next turn's trigger bigger"

sage cloak
static spire
#

There's a LOT of great Rogues

#

Assassins are very thin (though presumably the Ass Creed set will fix that)

sage cloak
#

Yeh, I'll have to give it a look

static spire
#

And there's some great Pirates, but admittedly most Pirates just synergize with other pirates

#

Excluding standout ones like Pitiless or Dockside

sage cloak
#

his own attack trigger is great

static spire
#

(I'm tentatively trying Relic of Legends and Jasper over Voidwalker and Spiteful Banditry.)

#

Voidwalker is stronger than Jasper but in a boring and non-synergistic sort of way

#

And I think Relic requires a lot less setup than Banditry

static spire
#

Played another game online -- it was fun even though I lost, but Keen Duelist is getting ALL the way out of my deck

#

lost me the game lol

#

I also learned that I am terrible at defending against flying

#

Voidwalker, you're back in 😂

sage cloak
#

Ah man

#

Keen Duelist, my homie, you can't be killing poeple

#

Unless it's the opponent

static spire
#

Played against an Ur-Dragon deck

#

he pulled Ancient Bronze Dragon and Ancient Silver Dragon off the top back to back

#

then topdecked Sneak Attack

#

crunch

#

If I'd been even ONE life higher, though, I would have won ironically

#

Because I had a [[Orcish Bowmasters]] in response to the Silver Dragon trigger

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

but alas, Keen Duelist killed me

#

and thus she has been exiled forever

#

Attrition looking good again, ngl

green plover
#

Yeah I think Attrition is underrated.

#

If you have a token deck go ham with it.

jovial tinsel
#

if they were, tough beats lmao

hazy nimbus
#

Recalling the guy who was trying to convince us to let him run ur-dragon against a precon first-time EDH player

jovial tinsel
#

had a guy on monday lose with ur dragon and have the GALL to say “i only lost because i was mana screwed” while he had four 6-drop dragons on the board

static spire
jovial tinsel
# static spire It was a 1v1 game

do you often play 1v1 games against this deck? if not, it seems like an exception that shouldn't invalidate the inclusion a card with such raw power

static spire
#

And giving other people cards is bad for a control deck

jovial tinsel
#

that's fair

static spire
#

I wouldn’t run the card if not for the crime trigger — with that in mind, wouldn’t the slot then be better used for another crime trigger if I’m lacking those?

jovial tinsel
#

yeah probably with that in mind

static spire
#

I really DO like having the auto crime trigger at beginning of turn but whatever

#

She may go back in if I’m low on card draw

jovial tinsel
#

[[indulgent tormentor]]

timber mesaBOT
jovial tinsel
#

[[magmatic force]] seems like a really good reanimation target

timber mesaBOT
jovial tinsel
#

[[virtue of persistence]]

timber mesaBOT
finite heart
#

how much token generation do you have in testing

#

cause if you have sac fodder to offer Cabal Therapist is a good crime payout that triggers in combat instead of upkeep

static spire
#

Gisa and At Knifepoint are my best token makers by far, at present

finite heart
#

you think [[Kargan Intimidator]] is worth it for a 1 mana crime on anyones turn?

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

Given the sheer number of crime enablers that exist in the game (targeting permanent/player/card in GY is just so broad), and given that Marchesa's tax on each crime is a major limiting factor, I've decided to focus on crimes which are 1) free, or 2) have a major effect I want

#

So I only want to pay mana for crimes if that crime is something I want to be doing (such as removal, discard, etc)

#

1 mana for "crime but no other benefit" is not worth it at this time -- and if I wanted that, I'd probably be on [[Withered Wretch]] first, since GY hate is pretty decent here! 🙂

timber mesaBOT
static spire
jovial tinsel
#

you’re inspired me, i think i’m gonna try doing an izzet or dimir color crop of marchesa

wispy solstice
#

Whats the main wincon of that deck looks interesting

static spire
finite heart
#

i am looking at a more dimir version

static spire
# wispy solstice Whats the main wincon of that deck looks interesting

About half the games are won through aggro and direct damage from things like Kaervek or Terror of the Peaks. The other half are won through Shenanigans ™️ -- that is, various bizarre combo loops, like the ones in the primer! Here's a short list of ways I've won, copied from there:

  • Balthor the Defiled (in Agatha's Soul Cauldron) + Archpriest of Shadows + a sac outlet + a token maker
  • Coffin Queen (inside Agatha's Soul Cauldron) + Dockside Extortionist (on 3) + Goblin Sharpshooter + a sac outlet
  • Dockside Extortionist + Disciple of the Vault / Mayhem Devil + Illicit Masquerade + sac outlet --> drain everyone
  • Sufficient mill + Living Death / Balthor the Defiled + Terror of the Peaks
  • Underworld Breach + Altar of Dementia + Dockside Extortionist + (any reanimation spell and a large target)
  • Underworld Breach + Relic of Legends + Altar of Dementia / Tinybones Joins Up / Marchesa + Living Death + enough legends
  • Rakdos, the Muscle + Illicit Masquerade + a high-cmc creature + a bunch of tokens
  • Dockside Extortionist (on 4 or more) + Chainer, Dementia Master + sac outlet (goes fully infinite with a Gray Merchant of Asphodel)
  • Dockside Extortionist (on 5) + Magda the Hoardmaster + Altar of Dementia + Underworld Breach
#

(Also, from your username, are you an electrical engineer?)

sage cloak
timber mesaBOT
#

Multiple cards match “Talion”, can you be more specific?

sage cloak
#

Oh piss off

#

[[talion kindly]]

timber mesaBOT
sage cloak
#

Choose 3, trust me

#

In practice 3 is the best lol

static spire
#

2 is best in cEDH, generally, and I've heard that 3 is statistically best outside of cEDH

finite heart
#

i mathed it out its 2 or 3 depending on my friends decks

sage cloak
#

Oh yeah 100% 2 is better in cedh

#

But I tried 2 in casual and ended up drawing 2 cards in an 8 turn game

#

When if I chose 3 I would’ve drawn like 15

vast vale
#

Mind explaining color cropping?

finite heart
#

she explained it earlier to me, she basically doesnt wanna do 3 color decks cause it becomes to goodstuffy, so she builds 3c commanders she finds interesting as 2 color decks instead

vast vale
#

This might be the cure to my being overwhelmed in 3 color and above decks

green plover
#

I think if I was to ever do a four color Commander, I'd probably go down that route myself.

static spire
# vast vale This might be the cure to my being overwhelmed in 3 color and above decks

Yeah, it's helped a LOT, and it's a fun way to make otherwise-generic commanders unique!

A friend and I pioneered this sort of thing, back on TappedOut, and I've eagerly embraced it whenever a cool 3-color legend appears. I've color-cropped Raffine, OG Sidisi, and bunch more. In every case, it's made the commander more fun.

About six years ago, I came to the realization that I like optimizing decks. But with the increasing number of "must play" commander staples getting released each year, and the prominence of EDHRec allowing us to find the "best" cards for any commander with a single button-click, every deck I was building just... ran the same set of cards, plus or minus a few cards to fit that specific commander. Which is a tragedy, in a format which allows you to run any card ever!

As new staples got printed, all the cool, whimsical, janky, "newly discovered" cards were getting pushed out of my decks.

I basically had 15 cards from each color I "had" to run (because the deck would be strictly worse without them), and suddenly if I built 3 colors that accounted for 45 nonland cards. Then you have, say, 15 cards which are the best enablers for your theme -- which is a thing you can Google ("best aristocrats cards", and so on). That leaves, what, six actual slots to be creative?

It was killing my inspiration to want to deckbuild. I can't stand goodstuff piles. Why even bother building your own decks at that point?

Moreover, any 3-color pair has no deep weaknesses, but no standout strengths either. You become able to answer anything -- for example, Grixis decks can deal with enchantments, where Rakdos can't -- but you sorta... dilute the actual uniqueness and strength of that color pair, in exchange for running more generic goodstuff. Color trios have much less defined mechanical and flavorful identities than the pairs.
_ _

#

The breakthrough happened when I realized that two-color doesn't have the same problem (or at least, LESS of that problem). With less colors comes more slots, and restriction breeds creativity -- you have to come up with clever solutions to dodge or outmaneuver the weaknesses of your colors, instead of just going "haha my color trio can answer anything".

All in all, it's just... made my decks more fun! I can still optimize decks, but I optimize within these self-defined restrictions and it makes the deck feel much more unique to build and play. It also helps prevent the problem of brewing multiple commander decks which play in the same archetypes, since each color-pair generally does very different things.

I've stopped getting bored and product-fatigued to the same degree, as well, and it lets me explore a unique spin on new three-color commanders (since "which two colors do I pick" is a very consequential and interesting decision which drives the deck in very different directions -- rather than playing ALL the best cards for that deck and just calling it a day).

Anyway! It's just something I've found VERY valuable to treat product fatigue and exhaustion related to high-color commanders, and it's a way I've used to reclaim some of the "whimsy" and deep-cut deckbuilding from the first days of commander. And it's given me a new challenge: to fill out all ten two-color pairs with unique decks!

static spire
#

Anyone around in ~40 minutes to help me make a bunch of cuts in different decks for new Thunder Junction stuff?

finite heart
#

sure

sage cloak
green plover
#

I'd be happy to but I'm playing with friends soon

static spire
#

@raw basin

raw basin
static spire
#

Hello!

raw basin
#

I arrive

static spire
#

Gimme like 3 min and we can begin!

raw basin
static spire
#

@cursive wren

#

Okay! So

#

Also tagging @brazen epoch because I want to annoy them with extra pings 😛

#

And @timid bolt too, why not

brazen epoch
#

How dare

static spire
#

So I'm trying to fit three cards into Avacyn, which is no joke because that deck is very low on slots

#

[[Calamity, Galloping Inferno]]
[[Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot]]
[[Lotus Ring]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

This is the list in question

#

First, do you think the three cards I want to add are good enough here?

finite heart
#

I dont get the want for Lotus Ring

raw basin
#

Taii is noncombat

static spire
#

Especially since she can "tune" the value (and draws a card herself, upon getting killed by it)

static spire
# finite heart I dont get the want for Lotus Ring

Lotus Ring seems like a good way to 1) get a death trigger on command for Avacyn, 2) give the magic number of power boost to turn her front side into a 3-hit kill, and 3) gives me the ability to sacrifice Avacyn herself then recast her with the floating mana?

#

Calamity is actually the one I'm least certain on including here

#

Because first, 6 mana is a LOT, especially for a creature which does nothing without other pieces

finite heart
#

the problem i see is that lotus ring doesnt have the sac ability, it gives it to the creature so you need to guarantee haste or that the creature was already on the board for a turn and then you have to spend 6 mana on that

timid bolt
#

I love calamity but I don't think it would be worth it

static spire
# finite heart the problem i see is that lotus ring doesnt have the sac ability, it gives it to...

I'm not super concerned about the lack of haste, truthfully? It's also another way to suit up a stax creature, swing in for a while, then pop it at the start of my turn for mana and go off. Either way, often I end up in a situation where I really need mana suddenly -- for example, if I'm holding Tibalt's Trickery -- but don't want to hold up lands I could spend on aggressive threats. I think Lotus Ring is worth trying to solve those problems?

brazen epoch
#

How many creatures would you use Calamity's effect on?

finite heart
#

does it though? cause you are spending that mana on the equip

#

at that point just go phyrexian altar

static spire
static spire
finite heart
#

its just avacyn

static spire
static spire
finite heart
#

oh i thought they meant the sniper

#

missread

static spire
#

The sniper also affects Sword of Fire and Ice and Olorin's Searing Light, I suppose

finite heart
#

yeah true, but that seems more like a "oh neat it happened this game" moment

static spire
#

But okay, I could be convinced to only run the Lotus Ring -- I really DO want to test that one dammit 😂

#

So we only need one cut at present

finite heart
#

how well do you hit face, cause you could switch for mask of memory

static spire
#

Mask of Memory is quite possibly the best equipment in the deck, to be honest

#

I was thinking Reaver Cleaver though 🤔

raw basin
#

are you struggling for mana>

static spire
#

Or potentially Akroma's Will

finite heart
#

reaver would be my second choice or maybe aura of silence depending on your meta

static spire
finite heart
#

cause aura is the type of stax piece that draws a lot of aggro and often does not actually save you

static spire
#

I could alternatively cut Aggravated Assault and go fully comboless again, I suppose

finite heart
#

Thats what i meant with depending on the meta because where i am at artifact and enchant decks arent that common

static spire
#

But it would admittedly be sad to 1) not have such a great mana sink under stax pieces, and 2) not have art with Jackal Mom

static spire
#

It's one of the only pieces of asymmetric artifact hate I can run

finite heart
#

yeah makes sense

static spire
#

Since I get whacked HARD by stuff like Stony Silence

#

so I can't break parity on it

cursive wren
#

How relevant is Basilisk Collar? Obviously you flip Avacyn and she makes it an assymetrical board wipe. It seems like Lotus Ring might have more utility though

finite heart
#

basilisk i assume is to make avacyn truly leathla right?

static spire
#

That, and often I get to really low life totals due to things like The One Ring or Ancient Tomb, so the life gain is relevant

finite heart
#

how much does Sera Ascendant do for you,like how often do you get aggroed early/lose life fast?

static spire
finite heart
#

how often does it work though

static spire
#

I'm gonna try swapping Reaver Cleaver for now, and see how that does

cursive wren
#

I think reaver cleaver is a good swap. either that or the jitte

static spire
#

Oh heck, hold on, forgot to do my montly deck backup LOL

finite heart
#

commander Sofia Daguerre looks kinda out of place too imo

#

like thats a pretty underwhelming removal etb imo

static spire
#

I've found her really useful 🤷 The flash is what makes her work. Especially since, in a pinch, she kills herself at instant speed for a Junk and a death trigger to get Avacyn flipped

#

Okay, I've got a swap for now in Avacyn

#

Let's move on 😂

#

Teysa next!!

#

[[Baron Bertram Greywater]]
[[Kaervek, the Punisher]]
[[Kambal, Greedy Mayor]]
[[Collector's Cage]]
[[Gisa the Hellraiser]]

timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/otj/89/gisa-the-hellraiser

Gisa, the Hellraiser <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Creature — Human Warlock
Ward—mana2, Pay 2 life.
Skeletons and Zombies you control get +1/+1 and have menace.
Whenever you commit a crime, create two tapped 2/2 blue and black Zombie Rogue creature tokens. This ability triggers only once each turn. (Targeting opponents, anything they control, and/or cards in their graveyards is a crime.)
4/4

finite heart
#

thats a lot

static spire
#

[[Kambal, Profiteering Mayor]]

timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/otj/211/kambal-profiteering-mayor

Kambal, Profiteering Mayor <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Creature — Human Advisor
Whenever one or more tokens enter the battlefield under your opponents' control, for each of them, create a tapped token that's a copy of it. This ability triggers only once each turn.
Whenever one or more tokens enter the battlefield under your control, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
2/4

static spire
#

I don't necessarily need to add them all

cursive wren
#

Kaervek is a must imo

#

that guy is busted

static spire
#

I absolutely must run Baron Bertram Graywater, he's Ophiomancer with upside in this deck (and Ophiomancer is a contender for the best card in the deck). The rest I'm hype on, but could be convinced either way.

cursive wren
#

yeah the baron fits really well in that deck

finite heart
#

baron is so you get an instantly fueld teysa from her own effect right?

static spire
finite heart
#

that makes a lot of sense to me

static spire
#

"Sac a vampire: create a white spirit and black vampire [once per turn]"

#

he's also absurd with token doublers

brazen epoch
#

Just a reminder which Teysa is this? the one that uses white spirits to exile shit?

static spire
static spire
#

lemme post the list sorry 😂

#

thanks for reminder

finite heart
#

Kambal is only worth it if you can replace an aristocrat with it

#

not really a believer in the first ability alone

static spire
brazen epoch
#

Dummy XD

static spire
brazen epoch
#

Right this damn deck

static spire
finite heart
#

how well has Charismatic COnqueror been playing for you?

static spire
finite heart
#

i have heared very split takes on that card

#

do you actually utilize Ojer Taq? Cause if its just mid that could be a good replacement for the baron

static spire
static spire
#

It's very, uh

#

it's very not mid

#

(she's absurd)

#

Lemme go through in order

finite heart
#

Ojer Taq is either very insane or increadibly underwhelmind depending on if you can abuse her the turn she comes down or not, in my experience so she is a very deck by deck thing imo

#

but yeah if you can use her she is so good

#

(put her in the Anim Pakahl deck and it was stupid)

static spire
#
  • Baron Greywater: Absolutely running, no question
  • Kambal: Yeah, this probably isn't getting a slot, especially since I don't WANT aristocrats here
  • Kaervek: Super strong card in general, and good recursion, especially since I'm on a bunch of tutors I can reuse
  • Collector's Cage is just a way to cheap out super big things, but I suppose it might be hard to hit three distinct powers -- most of my tokens are 1 power, and Teysa is 2, so I might have to activate twice
  • Gisa seems absurd with stuff like Yawgmoth, or if I have any free sac outlet to convert those two tokens into white spirits? But 5 mana is harsh
finite heart
#

if you dont want Aristocrats Kambal is very bad, the token "stealing" is to unreliable

static spire
#

Okay, so four cuts needed

#

for two 3-drops, a 4-drop, and a 5-drop

#

Newest Teysa definitely getting the axe

#

so that's only three more cuts needed

finite heart
#

how good is Sorin for you? cause that seems like a decent cut to me

static spire
#

He's not one of the best token makers, but I'm hesitant to cut a walker and shift further away from superfriends? The consistent "one token per turn" is sorta what I was aiming for there 🤔

#

Priest of the Blessed Graf was bonkers the last time I played, so I think she stays

finite heart
#

combat caligrapher seems to be equally fueling your opponents

static spire
#

That has not been my experience, since I generally profit much better off the tokens than everyone else does?

#

I think Collector's Cage isn't good enough at present, though I may change my mind there

finite heart
#

I dont even think its an issue of good enough or not, it just doesnt seem to support the game plan

#

Collector's Cage i mean

static spire
#

...yeah, sigh

#

yeah I getcha

finite heart
#

Orzhov enforcer any good? i myself am not a fan of afterlife effects

static spire
finite heart
#

just feel its a bit to inefficient, like only getting 1 token instead of a token maker like jadar ghoulcaller for example

#

i get that its a white token which jadar doesnt create

static spire
#

...I think we play in entirely different sorts of games, because most of the experiences you describe are pretty diametrically opposed to my own hahaha

static spire
finite heart
#

very much possible

#

i adore Jadar

#

because sacrificing the token anyway

static spire
#

Orzhov Enforcer is very good here, because he's a rattlesnake blocker who prevents most people from hitting my walkers on the ground (or my face)

#

...Seraph of the Scales, though, on the other hand... such gorgeous art but rarely worth the 4

#

I could also (SIGH) cut Attrition again

#

if I wanted to be NICE to people

#

but it's such a nice foil

cursive wren
#

do you have a few potential cuts you've considered? I know this list is already pretty tight but what are some cards that have fallen fairly flat when you've played them lately?

static spire
#

Haven't cast Charismatic Conqueror

#

Attrition is almost TOO good (but my meta's getting stronger so I kinda like having the spiky option there)

cursive wren
#

Attrition should stay imo

static spire
cursive wren
#

I like the Seraph as a cut. It's a do nothing the turn it comes down. Just a blocker. And you're banking on it dying that turn cycle to get value

finite heart
#

beckon apparition putting in work?

static spire
#

I keep cutting it

#

then I keep going "huh, wouldn't it be amazing if only I had it right now"

#

It's just a LOT of value in a 1-mana package

#

flash in a blocker, exile a threat from the reanimator player, then the token dies and Teysa refunds me a white one

finite heart
#

in my experience you want repeatable grave hate or permanent one

#

one time just doesnt cut it

static spire
#

Depends what you're hitting

cursive wren
finite heart
#

it can be good, but it just isnt good often enough imo

static spire
#

One of the irritating decks in my meta is a [[Bladewing the Risen]] deck, which loops Broodlord over and over in a turn to win

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

[[Hoarding Broodlord]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

every time that happens I go "augh if only I had..."

cursive wren
#

I can see that. It's a card you just hold onto for the right moment

static spire
#

Let's consider mana values, for a second -- I've cut a 3 and a 4 drop, and added a 3 drop, a 4 drop, and a 5-drop

finite heart
#

How good is Tegweyll in practice

static spire
#

(also, brb, car may be dead)

finite heart
#

same question for rabble rousing

static spire
#

Both great tbh

#

(Yep, car is dead, dealing with that lol)

#

Eh, I'll cut Beckon Apparition for now 😂 as always

#

and then when something else underperforms, it'll go back in

raw basin
#

remove it until you need gy hate again

static spire
#

I could also cut Sorin 😭

#

Which would raise the curve less

raw basin
#

well the 5 drop slot is the part of the curve that stands out to me

static spire
raw basin
#

hows the battle preform for you?

static spire
#

both sides are great

#

Could cut Slaughter the Strong I suppose

#

Yeah, let's try that for now

#

So Slaughter the Strong, new Teysa, and Seraph of the Scales --> Gisa, Greywater, and Kaervek

#

10 mana to 12 mana, but that's not the end of the world

#

And that doesn't lower my crime density!

#

Okay, I'm pretty happy with this

#

Moving on to the next!

#

Next I need one cut from each of these decks:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/MzYGFEilMUyF1GZph8YtDw
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/tAfa8BYilU2tot1R3QfxnA
...for Forsaken Miner and Omenpath Journey respectively.

Moxfield
Be Slay, Do Crime 🌵👑🏳️‍🌈🔪: Marchesa, Dealer of Death EDH [PRIMER; R...

Well howdy, pardner! You better watch your step in this here saloon, or mosey yourself back out. We don't want no dirty Blue players here.

So, you ask, how would I sum up this deck in a single sentence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yNhbQBQymE

Put another way, playing this deck is so very,...

Moxfield
Don't You Worty 'Bout a Thing: Wort EDH - Commander (Wort, the Raid...

A deck created using the deck building website, Moxfield.

#

I also -- to some degree -- need to completely rebuild Hapatra, but that's a project for another day 😅

finite heart
#

pile on i would say

#

for marchesa

#

surveil 2 is not good enough an upside for it to beat out the other removals i think and you got a lot of removal already

static spire
#

free removal is sorta the most valuable thing in the deck, and I have more than enough creatures to knock it down in price

finite heart
#

alternativly archpriest if you arent actually hiting face often

static spire
#

I mean, it's not as good as Lethal Scheme, but Lethal Scheme is cracked soooooo

finite heart
#

Faerie macabre is also a possible cut for similar reasons as with beckon in the other list

static spire
#

I kinda want to find three slots regardless

#

Since [[Urza's Bauble]] / [[Mishra's Bauble]] both seem pretty good as well

timber mesaBOT
finite heart
#

how often do you trigger Reaper from the Abyss

static spire
#

Are there any other great things I could reanimate which supercharge crimes?

finite heart
#

Illicit Masquerade same question, looks like its either good boardwipe protection/sac doubling or to expensive

#

Archorn of Cruelty? its a reanimation target that retriggers you a crime

static spire
raw basin
#

how much is return of the wildspeaker usually drawing you?

static spire
finite heart
static spire
#

though the +6 to my board isn't terrible either

static spire
#

I've won several games with it

finite heart
#

Vadmir putting in work for you?

static spire
finite heart
#

yeah he is in my "looks very good" list, but had to ask

static spire
#

And the life is something I lack

finite heart
#

(also trying to build her rn)

static spire
#

(I go down on life FAST here)

static spire
#

I could try cutting Faerie Macabre I suppose

finite heart
#

very much still in the starting stages

#

havent had that much time yet

#

what about Archpriest, do you actually get to reanimate stuff with it often?

static spire
finite heart
#

Dauthi Voidwalker is obviously an increadible card, but does it interrupt your crime plan often?

static spire
#

Nah, it doesn't interrupt my crimes often, though it IS a bit "generically good"

#

but I keep it because I get to potentially keep stuff I killed

#

and it shuts down a LOT of decks

finite heart
#

its a hell of a monster

#

how often do you actually sac creatures?

#

and do you need/use rituals effectivly/often?

static spire
static spire
#

I wouldn't call it reliable, but it happens once I get rolling pretty well

finite heart
#

Altar of Dementia and/or Rakdos are also possible cuts then

cursive wren
#

need that sac outlet

finite heart
#

thats fair

static spire
#

Yeah, definitely can't cut Altar

#

the free sac outlets are very good especially with Gisa or At Knifepoint

cursive wren
#

How do you feel about Coffin Queen?

finite heart
#

What about Mari, the Killing Quill? kinda seems to conflict wiht both Voidwalker and the crime plan

cursive wren
#

Mari is a solid card but I think it's missing some synergies to earn/maintain its spot in the deck

finite heart
#

it would prefectly fit in Olivia or a direct Outlaw build but yeah for this it seems a bit of

static spire
#

Gimme one sec, more car problems

#

My commander is an outlaw, and I'm pretty good at killing stuff then immediately swinging in to pull it out of exile

#

and honestly exiling stuff when it dies is a big upside on average, I don't see a conflict there

#

sure it turns off Chainer and a few other things, but stealing enemy creatures is a side hustle here

#

It's not central to the deck's operation

finite heart
#

well your grave hate crimes become disabled and if you have both voidwalker and her only one of them can replace the death

cursive wren
#

GY hate is always good but [[merrow bonegnawer]] seems middling

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

That's the best card in the whole deck haha

#

Every black spell comes with a free crime!

#

also turns Kaervek into proper "Yawg Will but without pesky exile"

cursive wren
#

ah right not sure how I missed that. forgot about gy targeting being a crime

#

my bad

#

I think the macabre is a good cut

#

you have better crime cards in the deck

static spire
#

Okay, for now I'm trying:

ADD: Laughing Jim Jasper, Spiteful Banditry, Forsaken Miner
CUT: Faerie Macabre, Fire Covenant, Lord Skitter Sewer King

Mostly because Jim Jasper seems very fun 😂

The Baubles can perhaps wait for another day.

cursive wren
#

making the stuff you steal outlaws is pretty good

finite heart
#

He looks pretty good yeah, especially since he also makes them outlaws if other stuff stole them

#

Still wondering about that timing though being upkeep is just very unfortunate

static spire
#

He's a value engine independent from my commander, and I run a lot of outlaws, so I hope he'll be a good "backup commander" in addition to being a free crime?

#

I also did cut Git Probe for Mishra's Bauble
I decided it was better NOT to cheat on my Rakdos color-crop
And when looping with Breach it's better than Git Probe since I don't have to pay life
If it's really good I'll add Urza's -- I think it's a better card than Urza's Bauble in general

#

Further question -- do you think that Rafael, Fiendish Savior is better or worse than Reaper from the Abyss?

Reaper is brutal removal, but it relies on having a sac outlet (which I don't always have) or opponents' creatures dying "naturally". Moreover sometimes he accidentally starts obliterating my own board since he's not optional.

Meanwhile Rafael is (soooorta) another Gisa or At Knifepoint, which have been some of the best things in the entire deck, if I can pay the 1 repeatedly. And his tokens crime too, and gain a bit of life... But needing to pay the 1 and not noticing token deaths is a big problem.

cursive wren
# static spire Further question -- do you think that Rafael, Fiendish Savior is better or worse...

I really like the reaper but like you said it's not a may which can slow you down a bit. I think it's worth trying Rafael. Having more options similar to Gisa and At Knifepoint is good. The deck will play more consistently. Needing to pay the 1 is an issue sure but that's not specific to Rafael. In general it will add up like you mentioned. Might just need further testing to see how tight the play pattern is

#

I think the fact that Rafael will trigger at every end step is big

static spire
static spire
zealous ferry
#

I had to look that card up because I couldn't remember if it was just [[Raphael]] or if there weren't also a Rafael.

timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/clb/292/raphael-fiendish-savior

Raphael, Fiendish Savior <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manab:292901508872273920><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Devil Noble
Flying
Other Demons, Devils, Imps, and Tieflings you control get +1/+1 and have lifelink.
At the beginning of each end step, if a creature card was put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn, create a 1/1 red Devil creature token with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
4/4

static spire
#

Is this incredibly good or incredibly bad for my OG Teysa superfriends? I honestly can't decide.

Screenshot_2024-04-03_at_11.09.09_AM.png
finite heart
#

this only really looks good imo if you remove it in response ot the etb trigger when you are at 1 or less other cards in hand

zealous ferry
#

It's a donation card or you have [[Gravepact]] effects.

timber mesaBOT
zealous ferry
#

So I don't think it works for Teysa

static spire
# zealous ferry So I don't think it works for Teysa

The theory is that it's pretty far above rate in terms of tokens produced, since they're flying black tokens (some of my favorites for that deck) and I break parity on the sacrifice effect since I get refunded white stuff?

zealous ferry
#

I can see that, but I would need to do math on it.

finite heart
#

yeah but if you dont win very fast it is gonna dumpster you

#

the sac isnt the worst part, its becomming hellbent because you discard every turn

static spire
static spire
timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/dom/102/rite-of-belzenlok

Rite of Belzenlok <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Enchantment — Saga
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
I, II — Create two 0/1 black Cleric creature tokens.
III — Create a 6/6 black Demon creature token with flying, trample, and "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice another creature. If you can't, this creature deals 6 damage to you."

static spire
#

and THAT got cut years ago

#

sigh RIP the dream

#

But I did get ONE card I really like today!

IMG_1970.png
#

Can someone help me find a slot for this in Marchesa? Ideally cutting a creature

finite heart
#

yeah have been thinking about this one too

static spire
finite heart
#

still unsure if it works or not

#

but it looks promising

static spire
#

In Marchesa? I think it's great.

finite heart
#

the danger is once again as a controll deck you dont wanna fuel opponents, so the treasures being ready to use for your opponent on their turn might be actually damaging

static spire
#

Curves me right into "Marchesa + free crime" on T3, it's a passive crime on upkeep which isn't bad, and I'm always mana hungry

static spire
finite heart
#

my cut would be reaper, that seems like the most "i only crime if i was already criming" card in the deck

zealous ferry
#

[[Archpriest of Shadows]]?

timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/mom/89/archpriest-of-shadows

Archpriest of Shadows <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Creature — Human Warlock
Backup 1 (When this creature enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. If that's another creature, it gains the following abilities until end of turn.)
Deathtouch
Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player or battle, return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
4/4

zealous ferry
#

I've been suspicious of it because it just feels like a card that doesn't do as much as it says it should.

static spire
zealous ferry
#

I'm probably just in a meta where cards either aren't allowed to get to the table or I'm not allowed another creature to hit with backup.

static spire
#

There's a bunch of really neat use-cases for the ability to grant deathtouch -- [[Goblin Sharpshooter]], [[Terror of the Peaks]], [[Mayhem Devil]], etc -- and I can stick the counter on other people's stuff in a pinch to do a crime?

timber mesaBOT
static spire
zealous ferry
#

Again, as I said the problem is getting it to the battlefield or having something for it to target.

#

But, also, that's a my meta problem clearly 😆

static spire
#

I think I'm cutting [[Forsaken Miner]] for this

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

I just don't think that card is good enough dammit 😂

#

People keep telling me it's amazing, and I'm sure it'll be amazing in other builds like Yawgmoth, but I don't think this shell is the right one

zealous ferry
#

Fair

finite heart
#

i played with archpriest in MoM sealed and it was a monster if you just manage to hit once or twice, so in a deck like this with a lot of removal where you can reduce the game to a very simplified gamestate i think she is gonna do a lot of work

finite heart
timber mesaBOT
static spire
finite heart
#

and its permanent

#

so it really helps with clearing boards

#

especially for sharpshooter

#

as its basically means its a boardwipe

vast vale
#

If the reply link did not work let me know, as I suspect daedalus can answer this better than me

raw flint
#

Oh interesting

#

I don’t think I’d have tried to do that

#

Is it hard to manage the mana base when you do that?

static spire
raw flint
#

Ofc

#

No rush at all

finite heart
#

the mana base should not be that hard, like there are enough rainbow lands and dual lands you can use to get the one color of your commander once and otherwise its just a 2c mana base

static spire
raw flint
#

Rainbow meaning can make any color?

static spire
timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

The landbase here has had zero issue giving me blue on T3-4

raw flint
static spire
raw flint
#

I don’t think I mind

#

I’m used to having very cheap and weak mana bases

#

I’m particularly interested tho in this cropping because I don’t really care for tricolor much but there’s some cool tricolor commanders

static spire
#

If you ever want to exchange ideas on color-cropping feel free to tag me!

raw flint
#

Will do, thank you very much for the explanation!

static spire
static spire
#

I've pinned my color-crop manifesto here now 🙂

green plover
#

Did the session go well Daedalus?

static spire
green plover
#

Well I'm glad you got your cuts done superlatively.

cursive wren
# static spire The breakthrough happened when I realized that two-color doesn't have the same p...

Appreciate this write-up. I like the approach honestly. I'm not new to magic but fairly new to edh.. I think the thing that resonates the most as a newer edh player is your point about staples. Restricting yourself to two of the three colors definitely makes you think outside of the box since there are only so many staples that will fit into a specific strategy. Will give this a shot with my next 3 color commander!

jovial tinsel
jovial tinsel
finite heart
#

Well yes and no

#

its technically tapped

#

but that just keeps it from being used at instant speed

#

cause they will untap with it

jovial tinsel
#

yeah true

#

still limiting instant speed tricks isn’t flavor text in some games

finite heart
#

its definitly better then allowing them to use it instantly

#

but i would curb my enthusiams before extensive testing

#

because most decks that play at instant speed wouldnt rely on getting free resources to stop you anyways

#

but giving a deck that plays at sorcery speed extra mana can be very deadly

#

As i mentioned earlier, it looks promising as a card, but i just wouldnt sing its praises to high so early on

jovial tinsel
#

you can either choose to give it to the opponent that benefits you the most or you can just decline the trigger

static spire
static spire
#

I can also give it to creature-focused decks since I'm pretty good at keeping that sort of thing under control here

finite heart
#

I am a fan of the card myself so far, just want to temper peoples expectations usually, have seen to many people be disapointed by expectations they themself set to high

static spire
#

If I need to cut it, I need to cut it, but I'm excited to have fun with a card that has potential!

#

I honestly want to see if there's more treasure stuff I can add here

#

Seems both strong and flavorful

finite heart
#

ravel in riches?

#

a treasure per kill

cursive wren
#

[[revel in riches]]

timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

5 mana is rough though

cursive wren
#

could be good especially since you're playing at instant speed

cursive wren
static spire
timber mesaBOT
static spire
#

I only need one per turn, and this is a 2-drop

cursive wren
grand galleon
sage cloak
#

I doubt it’s intended as a cycle of enchantments

#

Though

#

If you want to look at it that way we did get that blue one from MKM

grand galleon
#

maybe somethings going on

sage cloak
#

Perhaps, that’s a good catch

#

I thought it was just an easy design for them to do

grand galleon
#

possibly, though i dont really belive in coincidence

#

when it comes to things like that

static spire
#

Thoughts on any of these in Marchesa? I’m on a lot of incidental outlaws

sage cloak
#

Dead before sunrise allows for removal and a lot of crime committal

#

Even just allows marchesa to eat a creature by tapping

#

I think thats the only one worth finding a slot for though

finite heart
#

Back in Town seems a bit to restrictive, you are running 13 outlaws of which maybe 4 or 5 are strong reanimation targets, without tutoring this just seems to often dead

#

Discreet Retreet just seems so expensive, if it was "whenever the first outlaw enters the battle field per turn" or something like this that might be great, but it only draws on cast, and a huge portion of your outlaws are lower in cmc then it is, which means most likely you will have cast a considerable amount of them before you get to it

#

Fixer i can see atleast, its a power play potentially with encoring a dockside or archpriest

cursive wren
#

The rest are really good but might need a few more outlaws to be worth running

sage cloak
#

Yeah. I don’t think having even 10-15 incidental outlaws is enough to justify them

cursive wren
#

I feel like Discreet Retreat works

#

Back in town not so much

sage cloak
#

Right, i think Marchesa herself being an outlaw is enough for DBS

#

DR is still just kinda fine imo

finite heart
#

DR is a 4 drop, which is the turn you wanna bring marchesa out so you can start her triggering

#

which means it competes wiht her

sage cloak
#

It’s like path of ancestry in that youre going to cast your commander so youll always get some value out of it

sage cloak
#

So is DBS

finite heart
#

And if you dont wanna do that you gotta delay it

sage cloak
#

Hmmm

finite heart
#

which means doing it instead of a crime or advantage play

cursive wren
#

I mean you can cast marchesa on curve

finite heart
#

and casting ramp and draw engines instead of 5 mana plays is not that good unless they are really strong ramp or really strong draw

cursive wren
#

Don’t necessarily have to utilize her trigger right away

finite heart
#

but then you risk her being removed with 0 triggers for no reason

cursive wren
#

Sure

finite heart
#

which is a gigantic tempo loss

cursive wren
#

It’s commander though. We’re not as worried about tempo imo. If someone uses their removal on my commander that I can recast then I take that as a win

finite heart
#

huge disagree there, a large part of the deck is 1 for 1s that only become efficient through the use of marchesa refunding the card to you

#

in a control deck tempo and card parity are increadibly important

cursive wren
#

Just difference in opinion. If we’re talking 1v1 I’d agree with you. But commander has 4 players. Unless your playgroup just has it out for you every game you don’t need to worry about tempo as much. This is just from my experience.

#

It also depends on the power level of your pod

#

That’s very relevant

finite heart
#

the deck in question is pretty high power with dockside loops and other infinites to win the game

#

In that kinda meta tempo should be relevant

#

also i never understood the "the table will leave you alone" or similar sentiments, if people are trying to win you will get smacked regardless

cursive wren
zealous ferry
#

If people are "leaving you alone" at my LGS it means you're on 2 land on t6+

finite heart
#

Yeah i am never being left alone, last time i played superfriends got Immortal Sun'ed and still was targeted, the game after that i switched to my Lurrus Aristocrats deck, got hit by a turn 1 Stone of Erech and was still targeted

#

being left alone doesnt happen ever unless you litterally cant do anything

zealous ferry
#

And keeping you alive actually has a benefit.

finite heart
#

especially in the era of powerful effects for damage

#

like why wouldnt the new Gonti player hit you? they get options for free

#

Or a Toski, or a Cavern Hoard Dragon or ....

#

like there are so many incentives to hit face

sage cloak
#

My issue with new Gonti is just how much work you HAVE to do just to get the cards

finite heart
#

and a lot of the stuff that deals with "the problem" also deals with you, cause those are usually boardwipes or multi hit removals

sage cloak
#

You have to ramp, then get evasive creatures out, and only then do you get to ever draw a max of THREE cards

finite heart
#

you dont really cast spot removal unless its completly necessary

sage cloak
#

Also, you dont get any cards until you pay 5 mana for gonti

#

And 5 mana is rough for a deck that plays evasive creatures

finite heart
#

the point was more to talk about how there are so many incentives to not just let people be

#

and even away from those, most advantage engines and hate pieces dont go "only the players who are ahead are hit" no, Rhstic Study, Mystic Ramora, Talion the Kindly Lord, Trouble in Pairs, Bloodchiefs Ascencion, most Aristocrats, Etali, better Etali .... they all dont care how far in the game you are they hit everyone

#

And on top of that, unless you are mainly playing with strangers, your friends will know your deck or atleast know it decently well to know that they cant just let you be, they have experienced being on the losing side so they will try not to let that happen, if they see a potential monster like Marchesa hit the board they wont go "oh thats fine" they will know that she is the thing that breaks parity and they will know how there are many combinations of cards in the deck that either present a win or an utter destruction of their board, which means they are even more incentivised to hit you while you are down to never allow you to get rid of their goods

cursive wren
finite heart
#

the first half definitly, which is why its not just a "oh only you will be hit when you are behind the rest get to be left alone" everyone still gets smacked, the second half is very specific to a board control deck but yeah

sage cloak
#

More incentives to attack, deal damage, drain life, etc just all keeps the game moving to an end

#

Game locks are miserable

finite heart
#

i wholeheartidly agree

#

i think its good, but it also does mean that in the cases were you have a shit draw or just got blown out by someone else its hard to recover, but thats magic, just finish the game and play a new one

sage cloak
#

Im loving the direction theyre going of everyone getting value by chipping in rather than having big swings or some one turn combo win

#

It delves way more into the intricacies of combat and the ability to just hold back and hang out

#

That is to say the ability to defend yourself propery

static spire
#

So many messages here!

#

Gimme a sec to catch up 😉

finite heart
#

yeah it encourages interaction and discourages stalemates

static spire
# static spire

Okay, now that I have a chance to do some tagging and searching in my current decklist, I agree with @sage cloak that Dead Before Sunrise is the only one worth running here. I only have four things I'd want to encore with Greywater's Fixing, though they're all doozies (Dockside, Hireling, Archpriest, and Voidwalker)

#

The problem is that I have a LOT of great outlaws -- about fifteen total -- but most of the best ones are legendary

#

I think Dead Before Sunrise just cleanly could swap in over [[Fire Covenant]], since I've found that card awkward due to the amount of life payment here 🤔

timber mesaBOT
static spire
static spire
static spire
static spire
#

Speaking of which -- hmmm, Face-Breaker here?? 🤔

finite heart
#

yeah Face-breaker is amazing if you hit face often

#

For my version i wanna try [[Sauron, the Dark Lord]] as a possible reanimation target, getting a good body + an army trigger per spell opponents cast can be very good especially if you have a sac outlet

timber mesaBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/224/sauron-the-dark-lord

Sauron, the Dark Lord <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manau:292901508754702338><:manab:292901508872273920><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Avatar Horror
Ward—Sacrifice a legendary artifact or legendary creature.
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, amass Orcs 1.
Whenever an Army you control deals combat damage to a player, the Ring tempts you.
Whenever the Ring tempts you, you may discard your hand. If you do, draw four cards.
7/6

static spire
#

In terms of other decks, I really want to try these cards somewhere:

image.png image.png
#

if Soul-Reaver did crimes, I'd strongly consider him in Marchesa -- he seems like he'd get out of control really fast, since his manifested things also can be used to trigger him in future turns

sage cloak
sage cloak
finite heart
#

arcane heist could theoretically go into Marchesa but does kinda seem a bit situational

sage cloak
sage cloak
timber mesaBOT
finite heart
#

grim hireling is already in the deck

sage cloak
#

Oh, right

static spire
static spire
finite heart
#

Jasper is cool definitly

static spire
static spire
finite heart
#

oh right, forgot the color crop

raw flint
sage cloak
sage cloak
sage cloak
static spire
static spire
raw flint
static spire
finite heart
#

He is very right

static spire
#

Has anyone tried building [[Ovika, Enigma Goliath]]? How was she? I'm considering swapping my Locust God deck to become Ovika, especially with the new plot mechanic!

timber mesaBOT
vast vale
static spire
vast vale
#

I can look into asking for the list. Was more token based than spellslinger, haste was always relevant

raw flint
#

@frigid tulip if you’ll forgive a ping I think I saw that you play Ovika