#Allow you to combine Reverse mods together

99 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

glossy crest
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A lot of players wanted to do Reverse Swamp Water, which is all of the reverse mods combined together. However, in the current state, you can only play one reverse mod at a time. It would be cool if we can have reverse mod combinations, as that increases our current total number of combinations from 2^8+8=520 to 3^8=6561, as each mod can be either disabled, active, or reversed.

A brief overview of all the current reverse cards:
Reverse No Hold: No hold, 1 next queue, NEStris bag, two-wide garbage
Reverse Messiness: Start the board with 12 lines of O-style pattern, line clear delay, 100% cheese
Reverse Gravity: 20g, lower lock delay
Reverse Volatile: 14-high board, receive more garbage
Reverse Double Hole: Start the board with 12 lines of checkerboard garbage, sextuple-hole garbage, cannot cancel garbage
Reverse Invisible: Start with 3 cheese in attack queue, pieces are permanently invisible, only top 3 garbage lines are visible
Reverse AllSpin: Start with 10 cheese in attack queue, repeating a clear instantly kills you, non-spins count as singles
Reverse Expert: Climb downwards, with additional time-based debuffs

Immediately, it becomes clear starting board position and garbage will conflict.
How to handle starting board
Reverse Messiness + Reverse Double Hole: You start the board with only 1 layer of checkerboard. This makes it compatible for reverse swamp water, and makes PC impossible. Of course, this might make it easier, which is why handling garbage is also next.

How to handle garbage
Reverse No Hold makes it so every garbage hole spawns another garbage hole to the left/right of it, so all holes are at least 2-wide (possibly 3-wide if combine with double hole). Reverse Double Hole takes precedent over everything else, period. But if combined with Reverse Messiness, it makes garbage ridiculously messy: inject 20 wound lines for each garbage line tanked, so tanking garbage instantly kills you.

potent rover
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I think you can't cancel garbage with Reverse Messiness so this would be impossible to survive

glossy crest
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I thought you can

potent rover
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also Garbo said that even two reverse mods combined can make it too difficult so this probably won't be added

glossy crest
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There isn't such thing as too difficult

potent rover
glossy crest
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In that case, there needs to be a different way to combine reverse messiness and double hole.

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I do want mod combos to be theoretically possible, i.e. a 1000 pps robot can work

serene steeple
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no

warm lagoon
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the problem is that if the game gets too difficult then it becomes total RNG

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and KOs become your main source of altitude

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you could nerf KOs but that still leaves the problem that reverse mods are already inaccessible to most casual players

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besides reverse mods are designed to stand on their own as challenges

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allowing them to be combined with other mods might just make them feel less important

potent rover
glossy crest
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Wait, how hard would reverse swamp water be:

  1. You start with 13 lines of cheese on a 14-high board
  2. You only have a single next queue and single next bag
  3. You cannot cancel garbage at all, and you get a ton more garbage, so any attack on you instantly kills you
  4. Whatever attack you send to climb would instantly be drained from expert mode
  5. Clearing a non-spin instantly kills you, and you're already at the top of your board
  6. Everything is invisible with instant gravity, and have to mound your stack to 20g while being at the top of your board.
    7.. Probably a ton more. LINE CLEAR DELAY

Even sending 1 attack line is the human limit. And thus the highest you can ever get here is 25 centimeters.

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But would a 1000 pps tetrio god be able to survive this? I think you can theoretically.

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The thing is people want to play reverse swamp water to "try it out" not actually seriously play. But it is cool for players to try it out.

upper agate
idle meadow
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it's unavoidable lol

glossy crest
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Ok. Then it is basically gambling. The only way to win is by not receiving any garbage.

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Which is completely RNG

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Maybe we can have "pair mods" where we pair two reverse mods. There are 28 such combinations. And these could be interesting and not impossible

idle meadow
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#1269460783293661256 isn't even implemented yet woomy

glossy crest
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I do want the reverse mods to feel like standalone challenges though.

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As very difficult challenges that are standalone.

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So maybe pair reverse mods, or you can activate any number of normal mods but at most one reverse mod

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(the latter is probably easier to code)

craggy seal
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can you stop making random mod requests please thanks

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also how are you going to use rmessy and rdouble

glossy crest
craggy seal
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the whole purpose of reverses mods are to be their own individual challenge

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meshing them together with others are just completely unintended...

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ah yes. reverse swamp water time to farm my 0.0 meters

glossy crest
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Then how come a lot of players are willing to try out reverse swamp water?

craggy seal
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do you think they will actively think it is fun

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???

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be realistic here

glossy crest
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They think it is cool. That’s why they want it. But it could be the anticipation effect; I.e. something they just try once

craggy seal
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its just a one off gimmick that literally nobody will be able to get off 0 meters

idle meadow
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negatives definitely outweigh the "dumb fun"

craggy seal
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if the reason is "we can combine regular mods":

  • reverse mods are not regular for a reason
    if the reason is reverse swamp water:
  • i dont see any other games deliberately implementing humanly impossible bosses and challenges and etc
    if the reason is "its cool":
  • is it cool enough to debug everything??
idle meadow
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i feel like the team could make a 20 second example video for twitter and that would be the entire feature lol

craggy seal
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would you rather have reverse swamp water or

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new content

versed rock
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reverse swamp water is just "fuck you"

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i highly doubt its even survivable due to the difficulty of reverse cards

potent rover
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just reverse double hole, volatile and all-spin are enough to be humanly impossible (+messier garbage and it's completely impossible because of the 1.15s line clear delay)
the board state at the start looks like this (empty area at the top is where the pieces spawn) and you receive 10 uncancellable lines of cheese immediately

image.png
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(start of reverse all-spin gives 10 garbage, the spawn location is already blocked 0.33 seconds after garbage starts to rise. even if you use clutch clear you will still topout because of clearing Singles twice in a row)

image.png
pure fable
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im genuinely confused why this guy keep suggesting silly things droidsmile

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btw some reverse mods have starter pack like (o pack and chess pattern and cheese and stuff) and it would be just confusing

neon quiver
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I feel like people will get mad with reverse swamp water, not mentioning then will then ask for reverse of literally every achievement-related combination (eg. reverse “The Grandmaster, reverse “Divine Mastery”, etc.), which will turn into AR farm for pros

glossy crest
pure fable
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no

glossy crest
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Fine. How about Pair Reverse Mods where you combine two reverse mods at once (like Pair Challenges in Antimatter Dimensions NG+3). Those combinations are not impossible and still playable, and easier to code and bug fix; there are only 28 combinations.

Alternatively, just allow you to combine any number of normal mods with one reverse mod. This makes the reverse mod stand out but you can add regular normal modifiers. And since regular mod combinations don't have bugs, I wouldn't expect bugs to occur.

storm grove
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Idk if this is true cuz a combination of a normal mod and an inverse could do some weird stuff

image0.jpg
pure fable
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why do u want to make it harder

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can u even do them urself?

glossy crest
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Same reason why people want to do swamp water

pure fable
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it still will not be implemented since half of reverse mods that is unique to themself that cant be implemented fo pairing

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like messy, double hole, invisible, allspin reverse all have starting lines

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and not to mention volatile 14 height

glossy crest
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Invisible and allspin reverse don't have starting lines; they have starting garbage. So it is perfectly okay to combine allspin reverse and double hole reverse.
The main edge case is messy double hole.

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(maybe have garbage overlay over each other)

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(Also, with bugs, if they are a problem we can always fix them later)

pure fable
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well the starting lines or garbage is whole point of those inverse mods challange anyway

glossy crest
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You can always combine starting lines or starting garbage. There's nothing wrong with it

pure fable
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u cant even past floor 1 on pair reverse mods anyway so whats the point

glossy crest
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But pros can.

pure fable
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…

glossy crest
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Pros can already reach floor 10 on all but two of the reverse mods (reverse no hold and reverse expert). Reaching floor 2 is a low ask.

craggy seal
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this is not implemented because it is the design of the game

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again, it is not the intention that garbo/osk had, as they were meant to be like separate boss fights in their own right.

glossy crest
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You know what. I quit making feature requests. I thought if I try to make a bunch of ideas at least some would be good and would be implemented. But this is what I learned (which I'll try to apply outside of tetrio)

Turns out if something is really obvious and haven't been implemented yet (like polymer T spins or combining Reverse mods or PC time ramping or duos snowball), it isn't because of a lack of awareness of the idea. Instead, there's some flaw in the idea that the developers have seen and found out (since they are experts/more experienced than me, a user) and thus intentionally decide to leave it out. Otherwise the idea would have been implemented (i.e. we already would have duo snowball or combine reverse mods). I thought perhaps the developers were being lazy (could you literally just combine the code and tweak things that obviously seem wrong?) but that's not the case (i.e. bug fixing takes more time than actually programming the thing).

This was also evident in terms of underestimating bug fixing. I would expect bugs to come up modularly (i.e. with a particular mod), but apparently there could be emergent cases due to combo blowup (bugs that only appear in a specific combination of mods). I thought the developers can gloss over or miss these bugs and fix them when players find these bugs out, except in a competitive setting these bugs can be irreversible (what if someone found a bug to reach 10000 meters and break the leaderboard? Now we have to do rollback)

Finally, many times there could be perceived huge demand for certain features (like combining reverse mods/duo snowball) except players treat it more as a one-time-thing rather than sustained gameplay. For example, I play volatile a lot, which is sustained gameplay, because it is fun. But a one-off might be swamp water, where I try it once, think it is cool, then not touch it again since its painful.

@idle meadow What are your thoughts on this? We should probably close thread.

desert topaz
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I don't think this should really be thought about till someone gets F10 Swamp Water because the games isn't in any more need of challenges and achievements and stuff. There's already a lot to offer

pure fable
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dude u literally request nonsense

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sorry

desert topaz
pure fable
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ofc him stare

desert topaz
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oh stare

storm grove
pure fable
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dude im not wrong and im not calling him trash ass or something like that

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im just saying their request makes no sense

desert topaz
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if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all

pure fable
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bro is attacking me cuz he hates me smh

storm grove
unreal goblet
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pankpause this was a really strange idea in the first place:
consider what the community says

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pure fable
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kuro will probably attack me if i said the same thing

desert topaz
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excess arguing isn't the point of the thread

pure fable
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well im out of this nonsense argument

toxic lintel
# glossy crest You know what. **I quit making feature requests**. I thought if I try to make a ...

turns out if something is really obvious and haven't been implemented yet [...], there is some flaw in the idea [...] and thus, intentionally decide to leave it out
???

Otherwise the idea would have been implemented (i.e duo snowball or combine reverse mods).
Okay so how in the world do you imagine duo snowball working?? Combining rev mods is also really unbalanced and makes no sense.

I thought perhaps the developers were being lazy (could you literally just combine the core and tweak things that obviously seem wrong?)
Please consider the fact that 1. You already answered your own question (duo snowball is impossible to make/really unbalanced.) and 2. The game is made by a small team of developers with their own life and such.

[...] I would expect bugs to come out modularly, [...], but apparently the could be emergent cases due to combo blowup
This is how updates work.

(what if someone found a bug and reach 10000 meters and break the [lb]? Now we have to do a rollback)
This has been done before and all exploits are recommended to be reported privately and responsibly. (You even get a funny badge for that, which less than 10 people have!)

[...] there could be perceived huge demands for certain features (like combining [reverse cards and duo snowball])
Please read the responses above.

except players treat it more as a one-time-thing rather than sustained gameplay
?

crude lark
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This thread has been extremely derailed and unproductive, so it has been locked. Please maintain respect and keep the developer connect areas of the Discord high quality.

night token
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ok, just gonna get some final thoughts in since this has been a surprisingly highly requested feature

with the design of regular mods, they were meant to be mixed together to create new effects. for example, volatile normally allows for clean garbage, but volatile+doublehole will create new difficulty by making tanking unfavorable. another example would be how you can normally hold to reset your piece's location in gravity, but nohold's combination creates new difficulty by removing that option. these interactions between mods is the core of the system and everything is designed around it.

on the other hand, reverse mods are meant to be boss versions of their regular counterparts. each one has it's own ruleset (including hidden values such as garbage sent, received, climbing speed, etc) meant to curate a standalone mode. they are not meant to be mixed together. in fact, if you were to force them together, many would be impossible due to incompatibility. for example, last stand requires you to cancel overwhelming amounts of garbage to survive and damnation makes you unable to cancel.

despite occasionally hellish difficulty, there isn't any mode in the game that's blatantly unfair. if we take the most difficult challenges (swamp water, swamplite, tyrant, etc), none of them are actually "unfair" since they're technically possible in the hands of a skilled enough player even if there's no player skilled enough yet.

so in summary, combining reverse will never happen because:

  • each mode has their own tuning which overlaps with eachother
  • many mod combinations are incompatible
  • the difficulty will become unfair/impossible
random reefBOT
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