#Merging B2B Chaining and Surge

2245 messages · Page 3 of 3 (latest)

frank citrus
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more accurately

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its send cheese bc every1 sucks at b2b

hollow tusk
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Okay so let's try again. Well, the majority of the playerbase is bad at b2b, and we have to respect surge as the premier season 2 mechanic. This is mainly aimed at top players to feel more tension.

So, let's start there. Would consecutive Surge 3s present a threat to climbing this b2b table?

3x b2b, +1
6x b2b, +2
9x b2b, +3
20x b2b, +5

Seems simple, but hopefully this gives a trade off between surge and climbing. Numbers can change too.

frank citrus
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i think

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you jsut make it send cleaned

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i.e

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before 8 surge its 1 well

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before 16 its 2 wells

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etc etc

hollow tusk
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Interesting idea to nerf surge 3 and 6 into 1 well, but something has to pose a meaningful threat to b2b chaining.

west light
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this new ruleset definitely nerfed me abit for sure, but surge did use to feel a bit lackluster (getting to high surge was very hard)
this b2b x3 == 3 damage is really strong tho, unsure

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openers are back and ready to rumble

arctic cairn
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i think if chaining doesn't come back the only other change current b2b needs is make surge clean only

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since it being cheese up until b2b 12 is bs

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if i want to play jstris or tec zone phase 3 i would to play those

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the whole if spike doesnt kill it helps your opponent maked the game really exciting for me

west light
west light
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sometimes

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not always

arctic cairn
west light
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with equal standing

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very commonly one party gets zone garb exactly on 60k transition so one side is filled with cheese while the other can just spam 6-3 like nothing happened

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in that case the side without cheese will generally win no matter what unless they misdrop Really bad

arctic cairn
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i thought you meant that equal players dont go to phase 3

west light
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the funniest matches are those where both sides get cheese in phase 3 and then the game is like 10 minutes long lmao

arctic cairn
arctic cairn
west light
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while unrelated to this thread, having 100% garbage messiness enabled makes the best clean strider win 100%

arctic cairn
slender moat
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something that i can say is that changes are prepared for if the game becomes too cheesy from short-chain

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it's something that i was highly aware of shipping these changes and will continue monitoring

native crypt
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cheese race is 0 apm gaming, i don't understand why most players enjoy it

astral peak
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i think that surge should send clean up until a certain point then you can maybe change it to cheese 👍

glacial parrot
astral peak
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b2bx15 for example, if you are below that threshold surge should be all clean in 1 column, above that threshold it can send cheese

glacial parrot
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not fun they just want higher tr number

native crypt
glacial parrot
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ya it sucks

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but rn it feels really hard to only ds

arctic cairn
west light
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i encountered no such problems personally

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the only hard part is keeping up with enemy pressure if they are higher speed

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but that's like, the game lmao

glacial parrot
west light
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but i always had 40+ cheese index, so

arctic cairn
native crypt
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i have cheese index -24, i will just start next game rather than cheese racing

west light
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well, unless your plonk is also very high

arctic cairn
glacial parrot
glacial parrot
steep wyvern
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poll_question_text

Where should B2B chaining start giving +2, if it was combined with surge? Check all you think would be good

victor_answer_votes

4

total_votes

23

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Interesting poll

toxic root
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not very related to this thread but related to the concern of clean/cheese of surge, maybe you can make surge only divide in 2 and put that cut at either the 1/3 or 2/3 point

toxic root
gusty river
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i think the cuts should be made depending on how big the charge is at

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3 charge, probably no cuts
10 charge? maybe cut it in half
20? in three
etc

toxic root
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or just always cut in chunks of 4 or something

west light
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this game got more stride-friendly than it was with chain lmao

toxic root
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im hoping chaining would re enable plonking?

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but im not sure

west light
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isn't there even more importance to timing now than before ? although striding kinda makes that obsolete i guess

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maybe more importance to tanking the right thing than plonking per say, people can't just stall on a 9-0

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and laugh at your fractal c-spin guarding with 2 quads

toxic root
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no cuz the goal is to build surge, which means more spins, more pieces, more speed

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chains are similar ish but when you are in the same b2b level its less critical

covert grove
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So just finished 13 matches in TL, surprisey I got mostly players close enough to my TR except 1 S rank and like 2 22ks.

Overall, the changes made yesterday to have surge start at 3, just made the game cheesier.

The cheese feedback loop got way stronger for the midgame and it seems very forced due to the surge changes.

The "gameplay loop" for midgame in my view for most high SS and 23k U ranks is doing 1-5 b2b clears before breaking b2b to either combo or skim for whatever reason.

So the current changes to make surge start at 3 and b2b x3 have reinforced a cheese loop like so. It's very common to have one board be half cheese, and the other board clean, and then flipped to the other side cheesed and other side clean. Mainly because digging through the cheese via combos or allspins then quickly using the clean garbage to then break will send back 3 surge, and this entire process leaves the other side cheesed. Then the other side gets cheesed and pushed up and then forced to break b2b and then also cheese the other side.

If both sides failed to cancel the surge cheese, or had nothing ready to deal with the cheese from combo dsing/skimming the cheese on the opponent's board, it just easily leads back to this feedback loop. Add misdrops or stacking mistakes it's loops back again.

That said, if both sides are canceling surge and playing attention to it, it is kinda fun trying to outmanuever your opponent in teh b2b chain/surge exchange, then try to finish them off while keeping the board as clean as possible from cheese. The main distruption is if one sides cheeses to inf ds/cheese/combo spam, so instead of constant back and forth it's just 100% cheese, then once cheesed up, to then quickly b2bx3 to then surge cheese, and even then its not guaranteed to be 100% clean getting to x3 because all-spins. Also intentionally timing to guarantee the cheese between combo and surge is just a mess.

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My suggestion for how it currently is, is to either have b2b +2 to have more cancel power to have less cheese, or make surge attacks less cheesier overall like idk lower garbage messiness specifically for surge attacks and or increase the b2b chain requirement for surge to be enabled.

west light
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i feel like the new b2b x3 => 3 damage thing actually buffed stickspin to be stronger than it used to be stare

native crypt
west light
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just get b2b x3 and skim and then get b2b x3 and skim

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no need to keep

toxic root
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theres less incentive to keep btb with the generous surge bonus

before:
10 quads btb gave 6 surge
2 sets of 5 quads btb gave 2 surge

now:
10 quads btb give 9 surge
2 sets of 5 quads btb give 8 surge, which is also more cheesy

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the punishment for breaking is minimal for cases like these

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in fact the cheese makes it better to break often

native crypt
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real no need to keep b2b

toxic root
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id say remove the start-with-3-surge thing for sure

west light
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i just have to break it asap along a spike opener and that's it

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did i actually deserve a +7 damage for "not keeping b2b"

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the new change actively rewards "bad play" as long as it is fast

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....unless i misunderstand what's going on and pattern stacking exactly 4 steps into "skim for an additional spike" is how it's supposed to go

toxic root
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if you want to maximize cheese abuse, you get your btb to 3-6 and break, and repeat

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with minimal punishment to damage output

west light
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b2b x9 == b2b x3 + x3 + x3 so no reason to keep unless OPP is much faster than you

toxic root
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in any case, the cheese you can get out of this just sucks basically

west light
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free cheese

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b2b x3 is effectively free

toxic root
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cheese from infds is ok since it was less lines for harder garbage, but now getting free cheese invalidates going for big surges

west light
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i'm kinda glad i'm not the only one seeing it this way

plucky egret
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Maybe instead of splitting the attack in 3, surge could have a fixed attack pattern. Let's say for instance it is 3+3+3+x (taken kinda randomly) :

  • You send 5 surge, attack is 3+2
  • You send 15 surge, attack is 3+3+3+6
    Depending on the pattern, you can make small b2b much less cheesy, while making larger chains slightly more relevant since they still send some cheese
toxic root
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could make sense

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anway what, oh yeah btb chaining

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um

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have we kinda finished talking about it

plucky egret
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idk, id say from the last patch that the intent is not really to bring it back

west light
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i still think b2b == damage is kinda broken

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and literally buffs pattern-stacking compared to s1

toxic root
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well if it doesnt do damage what do you want it to do

west light
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i think some non-linear scale might work better

toxic root
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scale of… what

west light
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for example b2b x4 could easily still do only 2

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but b2b x10 could do 13?

toxic root
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huh

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what does that mean

west light
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i didn't map out a function

toxic root
west light
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yes

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but clearly "b2b - 3" was too low damage, while "b2b" damage is a bit... much

toxic root
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what if surge caps at 10 and after the cap it does +2 damage or smth

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idk if i even like capping surge but just a thought

arctic cairn
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what if surge damage is always split in half

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8 surge? 4 and 4

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10 surge? 5 and 5

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4 surge? 2 and 2

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makes the transition from surge cheese to clean faster imo

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maybe round it in a way so that at b2b 6 and beyond one set is always at least 4

west light
arctic cairn
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obviously

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2 and 1

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3 and 2

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4 and 3

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5 and 4

spring osprey
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that is stil l cheese

spring osprey
spring osprey
toxic root
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i feel like surge gets "big" at around 8, yet it is still somewhat cheesy at that point. im wondering if just doing 2 chunks of garbage is good enough

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it hopefully keeps the surges 3-6 cheesy but it gets cleaner earlier, when the garbage is more substantial

native crypt
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pls buff high b2b (3+)

echo quiver
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it's fine as it is

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imo

covert grove
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So after playing and thinking about it a few more days.

I think overall the balance changes is a good direction except the PC surges making it pseudo 8 attack with cheese which i feel is worse to deal with compared to season 1.

The other thing that's bothering me, is dealing with cheesy garbage. If the opponent chooses to just constantly send cheese, whether it be from comboing, spamming skims, all-spin minis to b2bx3 to surge cheese on repeat.

I just accepted that I cant simply cancel it all realistically unless I'm way faster. That sooner or later I will have to address the cheesy garbage that got through on my board. Or that my opponent may have managed to timed through cheesy garbage.

I'm assuming outside of the t-spins and ct4 quads, all-spins minis were the added option for players who want to try to b2b chain and not be hindered by cheesey garbage to keep the chain going, as it's a new tool to manage the situation where cheese have to be dealt with. What im finding is it's unable to stop/work if the opponent is just constantly sending cheese.

So a thought occurred to me, what if all-spins minis just cancel 2x. Or maybe even a b2b levels like bonus applying to it. So like if I managed to b2bx8, but ran out board/need to address the cheesey garbage coming through, a +2/3 bonus to all-spins minis will enable dealing with it while canceling incoming cheesey garbage.

That or somehow weaken the other avenues of sending cheesey garbage constantly like making surge split into 2 instead of 3, moving the b2b chain up by 1-2 to get surge. I've ran into a few matches where both players, simply cant chain far until margin time, even though we are both relatively trying to actually b2b chain, just fail to until margin time where the garbage comes less cheesey and someone manages to get the breathing room to b2bx8-10 at the end to KO.

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Should also caveat that i suck at all-spins, and i think im slowing down a bit too much still trying to do them while triyng to keep b2b while dealign with cheese, still not sure if it's something that would get better the more i try them or its an issue

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My old playstyle is entirely inf ds cheese from last year and i've tried just intentionally constantly cheese opponents and it's a bit too effective

steep wyvern
covert grove
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It's why i mentioned b2b levels

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if it's only a bonus when at higher b2b or double cancel when its surge, i dont think it's gonna buff 4w

frank citrus
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sends

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its jsut alot slower paced and less exciting

west light
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the cheese isn't even the problem

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it's all just a bit easy to make

west light
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guys i was playing entirely wrong

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stride/opener meta might be the meta at higher ranks but it is immensely boring to play, a complete chore

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but slow defensive plonk (not inf-ds) is insane

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i'm not sure anything i have said here applies as such although obviously 3b2b => 3 cheese can still be tough when timed right, but do people have time for that

steep wyvern
west light
toxic root
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wait what were you doing

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or like, what playstyle

west light
final wraith
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It's pretty cursed to have breaking b2b being stronger than holding b2b in every way

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I think a good idea would be to implement surge scaling (make it slower than chaining) and make the surge send clean instead of cheese to prevent repeated breaks being abused

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I've been able to beat people that I've never been able to beat consistently before because of how much cheese I can send combined with well timed spikes

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The meta feels less fun to play than just holding b2b and then releasing the surge as one spike

hollow tusk
# final wraith The meta feels less fun to play than just holding b2b and then releasing the sur...

I agree that holding b2b is unrewarding. I'm pretty sure garbo has mentioned that Surge 4 is an intended way to play, so that's unlikely to change. I believe that holding b2b should be rewarding, and when it is lost, it becomes part of the "ebb and flow" of the match, and adds interesting tradeoffs to the question, "Do I all-in with surge, or do I slowly build b2b?"

1x b2b, +1
2x b2b, +2
10x b2b, +3
20x b2b, +4

Specifically, 10x b2b is the tradeoff for surge 9, and 20x b2b is the tradeoff for one-hit KO.

Surge 4 should have many fighting chances.

final wraith
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yeah

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except scaling should be nerfed

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because surge is stronger than chaining until b2bx10

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should start scaling up from b2bx8

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slowly

toxic root
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i think the current state of surge is surprisingly balanced (maybe not perfect but its close imo). if you cheese your opponent you can try and gradually overwhelm them, or if you are building a big surge, you have to be strategic to “dodge” the cheese and get a potentially killing blow.

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the ease of sending 3 surge is kinda there to be comparable against someone cooking up a 15 or 20 surge

west light
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Me when dodging the clean because it's too much but yes

toxic root
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in theory a tsd quad will mitigate half of it if ur prepared

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but one would ideally choose to strike when their opponent is not ready for it

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same with cheese really

glacial parrot
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people just love to say "just build 3 b2b and cheese ur opponent lol!" but fail to realize that a single tsd is gonna cancel that cheese

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and your opponent gets a bigger charge

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so it's just throwing

toxic root
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its worked for me, both attempting to cancel and send small surges

toxic root
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or the big surge person is good at covering for the cheese

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in that case youd change your playstyle

final wraith
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a speed player can easily cheese their opponent if they just spam b2bx3 breaks

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holding charge is extremely difficult when you're getting speedgapped and cheesed with higher app (breaking at 3 sends more than holding then spiking)

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it's so much easier to spam b2b breaks and then have well timed combo spikes than save up surge (and is better)

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because you're never using it while you're holding the charge

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the only times you can't cheese spam your opponent is if they have a fast enough burst to build tsd/quad and time it to cancel the break

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should also note that the surge isn't that hard to cancel as long as you have decent burst speed and timing

covert grove
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so i dont really see the surge coming

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and since i dont have hear otehr players ON

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I dont hear if they have reached surge

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and i refuse to have that option on

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because too much sound is distracting

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and there are players who use like 20x sdf and hold softdrop constantly

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that sfx is painful to hear

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or non 0 arr etc etc same sounds on repeat

covert grove
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versus someone all-spin minis a few times with or without a b2b clear hitting surge

plucky egret
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The sound thing is actually a good point, having an option to maybe only hear opponent line clears and surge could be quite useful

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Nvm you already made a thread for that lol

plucky egret
arctic cairn
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i hope its clean

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please be clean

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surge MUST send clean garbage only

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otherwise its bs

slender moat
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would be mentioned in the patch notes if that changed

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it's still short chain = cheese

arctic cairn
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:(

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why

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wasnt the whole deal of tetrio the high apm ping pong of clean garbage

slender moat
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i mean i like exchanging clean garbage b2bs as much as the next guy

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but if that's tetrio's "whole deal" i think all the more reason to seek a more balanced meta

arctic cairn
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i get where are you coming from, but doesnt this reward players for breaking b2b early?

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while theyre not past the "sends clean" thresholds yet

slender moat
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if you can manage to get the garbage onto your opponent's board without being cancelled, yea you should break b2b on a short chain

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but you get punished if it gets cancelled and your opponent still retains their charge

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so it's more of a matter of timing when you surge

arctic cairn
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9 surge sends 3+3+3 right? unless you have a tsd quad ready at all times if the opponent is just plain faster, cant they send it unpunished?

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so slow playstyles are kinda hurt by it, no?

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and if youre caught misdropping or making a stacking bad decision youre punished waaaay harder since the following downstack will most likely not be into clean garbage but a cheese race

slender moat
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as an incentive for reaching b2b 9 i think it's a fair reward

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at the skill levels where short chain is spammable, players should be good enough (or capable enough) to deal with cheese

plucky egret
arctic cairn
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true

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i just hate cheese in general so i may be biased on this

plucky egret
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I still think it would be nice for larger chains to have some cheese included tho

arctic cairn
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id take 5 pps blitz players than cheese mains

arctic cairn
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downstack zone dowstack zone

slender moat
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i'm very cautious of long chains sending any cheese because it's way too easy to get them over to the enemy board

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both short and long chains atm are fairly punishable in different ways

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neither should be sure wincons

plucky egret
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That way you can still cancel the cheesy part

west light
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phase 3 is the best part when both parties are cheesed, very annoying when one side can freely 6-3 stride while other is inevitably gonna die from ds being inherently weaker than 6-3

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alas, that's just the nature of the game in phase 3

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it's quite surprising how b2b is a "better way to cheese" than actual inf-ds combo but that's where the change is

hollow tusk
west light
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i'm glad it's min 4 now instead of 3 tho

hollow tusk
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yeah multiplayer cheese race can be a slog

west light
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i'd have more fun doing 100L cheese race time attack as a game mode than play against certain striders but ymmv

toxic root
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both players with cheese just feels like a singleplayer game

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te:c does it ok because the longer time to cancel helps with erasing a bit of the cheese

arctic cairn
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bring back this discussion because it feels like every tl game is a cheese race

gleaming sentinel
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thank you for the ultra necro bump