All Clear Nerf is too heavy

[royal ledge]

and I feel like the minimum requirement to get out of lower ranks is to be able to time and counter openers?

[lofty dragon]

fr

[royal ledge]

like yeah its hard on a lower rank player... so to get out of the lower ranks you need to learn how to counter it

[lofty dragon]

openers are not just setups, it's a phase of the game, refusing to learn how to play it is refusing to learn how to play part of the game

[royal ledge]

like for me and a lot of others the dividing wall of getting into X rank was being able to beat musik. because they forced you to time and actually build attacks

this was like 2-3 years ago so idk about who the gatekeeper is now

[lofty dragon]

refusing to learn how to play the opener phase is liek refusing to learn how to downstack

[hidden cove]

i knew how to play it, it just sucked

[royal ledge]

... and others know how to ds cheese but to them it also sucks? so the best place would be between both options?

[lofty dragon]

well some people think downstacking sucks

some people think pressure sucks

does that mean that's invalid?

[royal ledge]

people think whatever playstyle counters their owns the best sucks tbh

won't lie that I'm the same tbh

I don't particularly like playing vs cheese

[hidden cove]

it's not invalid, just weaker now

opener isn't a guaranteed closer

game doesn't generally end in 4 to 12 seconds

[royal ledge]

it never was?

[lofty dragon]

like sure I can get annoyed when someone has good defense, but that doesn't mean defense needs to be nerfed, it means I need to learn how to deal with defensive players

[hidden cove]

good thing the people who rebalance the game see its effect on the game, and therefore have adjusted the game balance accordingly

for example, so that those who are not blitz loopers have a chance to play the game without dying in 5 seconds

it is unfortunate that this required nerfing PC to 3

[lofty dragon]

also I feel like you're blowing the problem out of proportions

I don't encounter openers main every game

you're acting as if opener maining was meta

[royal ledge]

I feel like 5 lines and 1b2b would be a good middle

[hidden cove]

it was

[royal ledge]

basically a b2b tetris

[lofty dragon]

no it wasn't, you literally said yourself you could counter it

4.5 pps sdpc means nothing vs 3pps tki

I'm low SS (well s+ bc rank inflation of end of season) and I could 3pps the first bag of tki

you're telling me that at U you can't?

[hidden cove]

counter it MOST times, NOT all times

even tho you know what to do

it was annoying

just a race to get uneven garbage on their board

[royal ledge]

so you want to be able to 100% counter your opponent

[hidden cove]

so they stop knowing how to play the damn game

[hushed mesa]

4.5 pps sdpc is not nothing idk but it might be fast enough to get second tspin to cancel tsd

[hidden cove]

beyond 21 pieces

[royal ledge]

so you just want to win?

[hushed mesa]

kill opener meta was pretty miserable ngl

[lofty dragon]

me when my opponents stategy has a CHANCE of working sometimes:

[royal ledge]

I agree that opener looping was op but like I think that the game focused on nerfing it so much that it ruined other aspects of the game

like I can see why 10 lines is overkill but like 3?

[hidden cove]

personally i just want to not have to "learn a setup and do it with 4.5 pps" just so i can get to fight someone who has absolutely nothing beyond that 21 pieces of presets

[royal ledge]

and especially in the midgame, part of whether or not you take a pc is whether you're in a position to do so.

[hidden cove]

perfect clears become far less interesting once you realize it's just a setup they can do 100% of the time

and it sends 28+ damage

in 7 seconds

it's called "broken"

[royal ledge]

but you didn't have to considering you yourself said you could counter it most of the time?

[hidden cove]

never said it was fun to do

[royal ledge]

right, and that's why I'm advocating for 5 lines?

[hidden cove]

it was a necessity

because they force your hand into it

[royal ledge]

like I'm not sayind don't nerf pc

[hidden cove]

meanwhile if you are a new player all you know is that you died in 7 seconds

[royal ledge]

im saying maybe they nerfed it too much

[hidden cove]

you just wanted to play some tetris and this dude is flexing on you 32 attack in a moment but if they misdrop it, they fall to 0.8 pps

there is no reason for the game to reward all clears (as much as it did) if they are this easy to make reliably

and otherwise are just rng midgame

[royal ledge]

and that's why I'm saying they should be nerfed, just not as much as they have been

[hidden cove]

i don't see why it should be more rewarded than it is now

it is already accompanied by another attack, see MS2 or BT=>C-spin

so any buff to PC would just be an "effort to make DPC viable again"

instead of doing a strategy that wasn't repeated 100k+ times

[royal ledge]

lets say pc spam was 100% pre update and like 10% effective now. is there a reason we shouldn't aim for 50% effectiveness of openers?

[hushed mesa]

pc nerf to 3 does seem extreme but I'd wait for the meta to develop a little bit before making my own opinion

esp since there are ppl labbing b2b allspin pcs

[limpid fjord]

i mean have you seen the new replays

it kinda looks painful atm

[lofty dragon]

cheese is annoying! I sometimes loose to cheese, clearly all singles and doubles should do nothing and triples should only send 1 with combo.

same logic as how pcs are being treated rn

[royal ledge]

if pc sent 5 lines it would basically just be another b2b attack right? so it would be nearly equal to lst/st/6-3/any other patterned tspin stack?

[hidden cove]

they are already nerfed, that is why combo 3 is what sends

[lofty dragon]

??

[hidden cove]

did you see T99? you get 10+ damage from a single 2-combo because of attacker bonus

[limpid fjord]

are we discussing tetr.io or are we discussing t99

[royal ledge]

This would essentially level the field between dpc loop openers and all other openers no?

[hushed mesa]

like imagine if hold b2b pc opener actually works and pcs are used to blitz out massive surge

[limpid fjord]

topic derailing part 127357378

[lofty dragon]

okay but it should be nerfed more because it can sometimes ko me and I personally find it annoying so it should be unusable in the slightest

[hidden cove]

show me a game where single and double (not c4w) ended a game in 4 seconds

actually, maybe find one for c4w, idc

[limpid fjord]

someone is about to list the entire tetris guideline game library for this

[lofty dragon]

no, but it makes rounds last 4 minutes, with me still loosing, which I find annoying, so that playstyle should be nerfed to the point that it's unsuable

[hidden cove]

my rounds don't last 4 minutes

[royal ledge]

ok but they do at lower ranks so we should make it unusable

[lofty dragon]

well mine do sometimes vs cheesers and the whole game should be balanced around my personal preferance

[hidden cove]

fair point, but this is why they are already FT3 and FT5

[hidden cove]

not 4 minutes

[lofty dragon]

well thet it's just 3 or 5 matches of the same thing

[hidden cove]

there's some irony after doing the same loop in every single game with early o

[lofty dragon]

well mine are sometimes

[hidden cove]

and that's the difference between S+ and U

send more and the games will be shorter

[royal ledge]

right and we nerfed the early O loops so we should do the same to the repetitive cheese rounds

[hidden cove]

cheese is already randomized so it can't be repetitive

the garbage pattern is always a bit different

[royal ledge]

pc garbage is also randomized?

[lofty dragon]

and because on rare occasion I have long rounds with lots of cheese, and because 1/25 games I play in my rank end like that the game should be balanced around it and that playstyle should be completely invalidated because the only good playstyle is 45 second rounds with mostly pressure because that's the way I play and no other playstyle should be allowed to be viable

[royal ledge]

also even though I can counter it with good timing most of the time, its not fun and I can't counter it all the time

[hidden cove]

my whole set was less than 90 seconds

forgot the image lmao

[lofty dragon]

crazy you beat someone that had 25 lower apm than you

and 70 lower vs

in a short ammount of time

[hidden cove]

when PC loopers win with 250 APM and their opponent has 20 and they say gg:

that's this thread

[lofty dragon]

mf who??????

[hidden cove]

are you saying games won with PC loops are not good games?

[royal ledge]

and was 700tr lower in the previous season

[lofty dragon]

even at my rank the max apm from an opener main is 150 at that's at teh absolute highest

and the average apm is 50 for everyone elso

who the hell is opener maining 250 apm vs 20

[gritty mango]

jfc just accept that other people have other preferences

[lofty dragon]

at what rank does that happen

[unique mural]

I was low SS too, and average opener APM was 80-100 at best

[lofty dragon]

fr

[hidden cove]

winning in 4-7 seconds is disruptive to the game

[gritty mango]

you are disruptive to the game

[lofty dragon]

cheese is too disruptive to the game

spikes are too disruptive to the game

[gritty mango]

everything is disruptive to the game

[lofty dragon]

pressure is too disruptive to the game

[gritty mango]

do you want everyone to play the exact same way

and be like

yeah this is fun

i mean so is opener

and so is tki/lst spam

[unique mural]

Me playing on a 2FPS ipad is disruptive to the game

[gritty mango]

and so is plonking

and so is infds

i dont see your point

do you just have a problem with every single playstyle besides yours

[royal ledge]

the game is disruptive to the game

[gritty mango]

just let people have their own preferences at the very least damn

your word is not the fucking gold standard

[lofty dragon]

you are greatly exaggerating the problem and ignoring the fact that the argument applies to every other playstyle in the game

pressure is so unfair I literally can't have a break it should be nerfed

spikes are so unfair I literally can die at any point

[hidden cove]

i mean, b2b charge targets it slightly for that reason

[lofty dragon]

cheese is so unfair I literally can't downstack what they send

[hidden cove]

so that pattern stacking is less rewarded

by merely a few lines

[lofty dragon]

macro is so unfair they literally counter all my attacks

[gritty mango]

this is so unfair all my attacks that i learned how to send are now nerfed

[unique mural]

Well Zhun, tell me what is so bad about PC sending like 5 or 6 lines

[hidden cove]

what i don't get is what exactly you intend to achieve wit hyour proposed change of "re-buffing all clear" beyond bringing back the specific openers that were effectively making the game the same (despite claims of variety) in every low rank ~~ either MS2-DPC or SDPC/DPC looping

like, if you understand why the changes were made, then okay

if you don't understand why the changes were made, it seems irresponsible to demand any further reversion

[hushed mesa]

ms2 dpc

[royal ledge]

^

[gritty mango]

ms2 dpc

[lofty dragon]

also I, regularly, and consistently, countered sdpc with hachi

it's not like it was uncounterable

[royal ledge]

guess how many times my pc killed my opponent!!! oh wait I sent 1 pc each in 2 rounds and they weren't what lead to their loss

[unique mural]

I played MS2 Dpc, and I would like 2% of the time get the PC off on either, just becuase thats what happens

[lofty dragon]

hachi isn't even an actual counter to sdpc it's just that sdpc isn't as meta breaking as you describe it to be

and 1st->2nd->dpc gives a lot of opportunity to send lines in between and counterspike

[royal ledge]

also there still isn't a response to the question of why pc send 5 is unviable considering it would level pc looping with 6-3/4-5/lst/st stacking

[lofty dragon]

during 1st->2nd->dpc you are actually on a pretty even playing field after the first pc, if you can think quick you can counterpike and go into an advantage after opener, but if you play badly get pressured to death

[lofty dragon]

5 for a pc is still pretty little ngl

[hidden cove]

PCs are literally made in 5 seconds

[lofty dragon]

it's not as bad, but it's still shit and completely unusable even as a joke opener

[hidden cove]

why should they do a lot

[royal ledge]

it would at least be middle ground between 10 and 3 and would level dpc looping with other openers

[gritty mango]

tsds are made in less pieces than pc

[hidden cove]

the goal is to discourage looping

[gritty mango]

why dont we discourage stacking as well at that point

[royal ledge]

is lst/st/6-3/4-5 counted or nah

[gritty mango]

why dont we discourage all b2b actually

because its too easily exploited

[lofty dragon]

because that's the specialty of pcs, high unpredicltible burst with little stack

that's the only reson midgame pcs are ever good really

[royal ledge]

and the downside of pc is you have nothing to defend a counterspike with and it's pretty hard to just start making damage off of a empty board

[lofty dragon]

the drawback is that they aren't always possible and hard to see

[hidden cove]

i dunno if you noticed, but b2b surge

[lofty dragon]

that encourages b2b????

[hidden cove]

it also encourages breaking it

instead of merely being a passive bonus

[dusk marsh]

b2b is maybe kinda boring now

[lofty dragon]

it's a straight buff of old b2b before 7 b2b

[lofty dragon]

yea after the novelty of it wore off it is kinda boring compared to old b2b

[hidden cove]

maybe people are bored of actually playing the game

sad

[lofty dragon]

???????????

[hidden cove]

i mean all the complaint here is that the matches are too long

[lofty dragon]

no??

when?

[gritty mango]

???????????????????????

[lofty dragon]

I was making an example of how the arguments that are being applied to pcs here can be applied to every playstyle, and I chose long cheese matches because that is the playstyle I struggle with the most and am the most frustrated at

[hidden cove]

didn't you read your own argument? that the games are 4 minutes long?

why is that a problem?

[lofty dragon]

I don't actually think cheese should be nerfed

[lofty dragon]

.

[hidden cove]

people are saying b2b without immediate reward is "boring" but what is wrong with charging b2b for a better attack?

[royal ledge]

Did you not see the blatant sarcasm from all of us in those messages

[lofty dragon]

"immidiete" after 4 clears

[carmine sand]

does this thread really need more sarcasm

[gritty mango]

no

close the thread

can we just send all feature requests back to github

[hidden cove]

sorry you are right it has been sarcasm from all sides for 40 minutes now

[carmine sand]

suggest features on the Hard Drop Forums

[lofty dragon]

well it was less sarcasm and more giving an example of how the points ageist pcs could be applied to other playstyles, and I was using the same faulty logic to express that

[royal ledge]

I still haven’t heard anything about why send 5 would be bad 😔

[lofty dragon]

to little and doesn't change much

[hidden cove]

so, sarcasm

[carmine sand]

honestly here's my take: if perfect clearing didn't define and trivialize zenith speedrun it'd probably still send 6 lines of garbage. there's been a lot of discussion here about how QP2's design shouldn't leak into TL and that seems relevant here. i think it should probably just be brought back up to 6 rows of garbage so we can focus on things that actually matter (by this thread's own votes, 19 to 1, there are more pressing problems with the new season)

[lofty dragon]

well yes but I wan't useing sarcasm to be condecending, I was useing it to make a point

[lofty dragon]

yea just separate zenith and tl

also isn't sdpc stil meta for zenish speedrun?

[carmine sand]

not as far as i know

https://tetr.io/#R:921275c5a0b4

current WR (still nowhere near the 1:40 it was getting when all clears still sent 6)

[hidden cove]

this dude just did SDPC => DPC => stickspin and got 170 APM

ngl that's wild

all clears are already still strong

[lofty dragon]

What if a poll was made (like an actual large one in announcement) that asked what should happen to pc, whatever gets voted on gets added to the preseason play testing phase, and from there see how it effects gameplay

I mean the preseason is for playtesting after all

[unique mural]

That’s genuinely good idea

[lofty dragon]

Like I'm not saying just follow the general opinion to the letter and put in actual season 2, just use it as a baseline for playtesting

[carmine sand]

too minor a change to ping ＠everyone about lol

[sleek meteor]

5-6 is a perfect number for pcs (and only 1 b2b instead of 2) since it's basically a sending a tsd/tetris and at worse, a tetris pc sends 10 lines which is more livable than a 14 spike

[unreal belfry]

Why is the last option worded that way? It should be something like "I'm happy with the update". This isn't a fair poll lol

The question makes the implication that people already have a problem with it

[lofty dragon]

Because I said worst, not bad, saying that no change was the worst means that there were absolutely no flaws, if you think a single change was even slightly flawed you would pick that

[lofty dragon]

Maybe not an @ everyone but instead just a post in news or something, without a ping

So that mainly the people who care would see it

[hidden cove]

that would create an insanely biased poll, why would a person happy with the changes deliberately check #news to see if there is a poll about it

you'd just get the people via selection bias who are currently unhappy about there being a change to their meta

it's like google reviews; the 5/5 customers usually don't leave a review, an 1/5 or 2/5 definitely will

[lofty dragon]

???????

Neither person would know otherwise but players who care a lot about the game and check it regularly would

There is no reason a person who likes the changes would check news less than a person who doesn't

[hidden cove]

i never check #news and i care about the game

honestly before you mentioned it i didn't know it's there

[alpine wind]

not what we're planning rn

we want the discussion to progress realistically

[lofty dragon]

Too many messages in and the only thing that has progressed is my descent I to insanity

[alpine wind]

hence why me & garbo arent saying much --> we want to listen, and talking will influence the convo

but i can assure you we are listening

[dusk marsh]

yay

[lofty dragon]

This sounds like a threat ngl lmao

[willow narwhal]

lmao

[hot gale]

osk is in our walls

[gritty lark]

can confirm, have been keeping up with the discussion across all levels of play

been reading and talking to many people about the changes, and i do plan on iterating more over these next 2 weeks

[hidden cove]

the first game in this replay somewhat shows that +3 can already be quite powerful

[royal ledge]

idk if the pc was the problem considering you survived not one but TWO tetris pc's and then got timed and counterspiked with a td which only sent you 13 then got surge spiked with 10 on top of that

[hidden cove]

i mean i'm not saying it was a problem

i take my L

but it should not be underestimated

[royal ledge]

tss tsd tss tetris pc tsd tetris pc all with b2b and you're still alive having sent a tss tsd and tetris and somehow pc is still powerful

with this stack to boot

[hushed mesa]

that I piece 💀

[royal ledge]

it's not that the pc is still powerful

for me at least, with the stack you had you probably deserved to lose that round earlier. there's no underestimation of pc's +3 or any of that

[hidden cove]

it's 170 APM

[royal ledge]

and? you're at 100 less apm; not even HALF and you were still alive which tbh I don't think you should have been

the pc's should be strong enough to at least punish a player who's made a mistake in their stacking

[hidden cove]

that is actually exactly why playing against PC loopers was always a nightmare

what exactly is it about memorizing a few exact placements that should give them an insta-kill for any mistake, for almost no risk at all?

[royal ledge]

Any mistake??? Are we ignoring the entire stack the follow up and ds from your side. Furthmore the any mistake is punished applies to the opener user as well no? You even mentioned earlier that as soon as they misdrop or make a mistake they die

[hidden cove]

well i did misdrop the i piece

[royal ledge]

Also you’ve consistently ignored my proposal of 5 attack and haven’t addressed my reasoning behind it either

[hidden cove]

and then i died

but that was a bit later

[royal ledge]

Even with your I md this was the stack you created after it

[hidden cove]

the loop attacks on their own are arleady powerful, MS2 BT=>C there is no reason to add an additional +5 for completing a loop

[royal ledge]

A 5 attack would make it on par with lst/st/6-3/5-4 tho? Considering it’s basically a B2b Tetris

Like I can lst at 4 and it’s not insta win

There are players that 6-3 and also don’t insta win

I also don’t think that loop openers are “all ready powerful” considering that most can be countered

They were overpowered at +10 yes, but under 3? Absolutely not

[hidden cove]

the attacks themselves already have intrinsic value

the fact it's an all-clear, with how easy it is to make all-clears, doesn't really do much

MS2 already sends a TST + TSD, why add another +6 on that for it being a loop

the player happened to have no garbage. lucky

[meager ledge]

every time i cant help myself but just come back to read up on what you guys are saying i give up 😭

anyway…

[meager ledge]

i like this argument… thats all i have to say

i kinda wanna revisit adding to surge instead of directly dealing lines

maybe like

• the all clear does not count as b2b, meaning it sends the surge and breaks the chain.
• it then adds 3(?) surge after sending whatever was there and, again, does not increase b2b at all. if surge is released, the 3(?) garbage will be cheese by nature of how surge splits in 3. if b2b clears are done, it takes some time before surge starts increasing again. this would theoretically distribute the surge attack over time to be maybe a little more manageable.

the current pc does 2 b2b and 3 garbage so maybe the 3 can be buffed to 5 or 6

[languid magnet]

random idea:
if you PC with a b2b chain you send half of the surge spike without breaking the b2b chain

[broken brook]

results are in

6

[broken brook]

a pc requires you to setup any of the following clears as its ending:

• s/z spin double
• l/j spin double
• triple with an l or j
• double with an o, l, j, or t
• single with an i
• quad

now that looks easy, but in a midgame context where you want to keep b2b, you're likely going to need to make the setup with some garbage / color pieces below and be lucky that those can be cleared with the same clears mentioned above on the same combo as your setup
not just that, if your setup's not at the bottom of the board, you only have hard line clears as options:

• s/z spin double
• l/j spin double
• quad

[main yacht]

what if PC injects three lines of cheese onto the opponent's board instead
(inject meaning the cheese is instantly added and cannot be cancelled)

so there is a guaranteed reward for doing a PC

[dreamy sleet]

Put it to 6 or something

[meager ledge]

imo 6 is pushing it a little if we're trying to stop pc loops from being heavily abusable

at least, if its doing direct lines

otherwise the garbage income is very concentrated

[viscid linden]

6 unblockable cheese garbage makes SDPC too effective

[ivory imp]

How about pc injects wound lines instead

[noble sky]

walks in

what if PC's just do increasing damage with every time you send one, regardless of combo? you can start with 3, then make the 2nd send 4, 3rd send 5, and cap it at whatever number it used to be, or just, whatever number is most balanced?

i thought PC's sent a base of 6 damage but someone told me yesterday it sends base 10 damage

you can still incentivize PC's in the sense that clearing them makes PC openers still not broken, but midgame PC's viable?

and then keep the b2b chain bonus. keep the best of both worlds imo

[meager ledge]

that might incentivize looping to get strength out of it

[noble sky]

do you see that as a good or bad thing? again you can tweak the settings to make it more balanced

3--->10 damage require 8 all clears

if that's too easily obtained for some reason, why not cap the damage to something more reasonable like 6?

or what if we swap the bonuses from a increasing damage boost, to a increasing B2B boost?

and cap that to a number like 6?

considering you're probably going to break b2b to build another midgame PC, you can't stack B2B heavily by looping them. unless you pull 2-3 off in the opener, but then again... that's 2 B2B, followed by 3, followed by.... at that point it becomes more and more likely that the opponent sends garbage as a counter

my brutha i'm A rank and i have learnt zero openers

i'm just trying to give helpful input

[lofty dragon]

midgame pcs would be even worse than they already were in s1

[noble sky]

hence the cap to damage?

it's.... right there in my initial message

good luck sending 8 PC's until you're back to 10 damage with that 9 in 10 chance you break b2b in between

if it would even be capped to its original damage amount

[lusty swan]

if anything it should be that the more you do the less damage they send, that way pcs can send ok damage but spamming is less rewarded

[noble sky]

then you'd have to discuss with the rest on what's more broken, PC openers or PC midgame

from what i read, the overall consensus seems to be that openers need more rebalancing and that they make midgame PC's not worthwhile

[lofty dragon]

I meant worse as in effectiveness, s1 midgame pcs already weren't guaranteed kos and could actually get you killed, now midgame pcs would be even more unreliable to KO since gamege depends on how many loops you got at the start, when there is a good chance you didn't even do a loop opener

[lusty swan]

i didnt get that at all from what ive read, the main complaint about midgame pcs is that theyre not worth it cuz theyre too nerfed

[noble sky]

i don't think you're gonna be very succesful arguing to buff PCs beyond s1 effectiveness because of the whole reasoning behind the nerf, and i haven't done enough openers in TL to tell you more about that 😛

[lofty dragon]

I'm not saying it should be buffed past s1

[lusty swan]

they mean midgame pcs specifically

[lofty dragon]

I'm saying midgame pcs in s1 weren't the best, significantly less than that and it would be better to ignore them

[broken brook]

watched a few pro games and it seems like the current meta is tki flat top -> lst
makes sense, but in other occasions when tki is not possible, there's pco once then do whatever to b2b

[lofty dragon]

if pcs sent even 5 lines and you saw a pc oppertunity it would be better to ignore it

[broken brook]

i saw some where they're not going for the solve anymore

[noble sky]

if we are to pull through on your suggestion, then to make midgame PCs viable, you'd have to intentionally skip on opener PC opportunities. possibly worthwhile in this scenario, but i just don't see many people doing that. midgame PC's are RNG and it all depends on the risk-reward analysis of the player to decide on whether to take chances on waiting for a midgame PC.

i think in this case, most people are just gonna go with their 1-2-3 PC opener loop. but hey, that's what we got pre-season for to test right?

[lusty swan]

or have it be that if you clear a pc and youve cleared one within the last 16 pieces it gets nerfed, so midgame pcs are largely unaffected because it wears off

[noble sky]

we can find a compromise by tweaking the bonus given with each subsequent PC. my suggestion is just an initial one. we don't know what's the best implementaiton of this if we actually give it a try. but sorry if i misunderstood

[noble sky]

possible! but feels like a somewhat gimmicky rule to include

[lusty swan]

yeah i think a low set value is better in general

[noble sky]

i just think the increasing bonuses feel like a more natural and easier to follow way to implement a PC change that helps find a compromise on balancing both opener and midgame PCs

[lusty swan]

but i dont really think pcs should go up in damage the more you do, that really incentivizes looping and makes one off pcs less good, which is kinda the opposite of what a lot of people in this thread think should happen

myself included

[noble sky]

if we add a "X pieces until next-PC-nerf is no longer applied" rule, that's gonna feel arbitrary to implement. not that my suggestion isn't per se. i just think it feels more self-explanatory and natural

[noble sky]

i already replied to that earlier, hold on

[noble sky]

@lusty swan

[lusty swan]

bad thing

[noble sky]

fair 😆 but i wrote more than that

i'll just summarize

• you can balance looping by capping the damage to let's say 6 instead of 10. 3->4->5->6->6-> etc.
• • you can also plonk a double to counter
• you can also give a increasing b2b chain boost instead of a damage boost, which is lost in many cases if the loop grows too big. again you can plonk a double to send a garbage line to force the PC looping to end

[lusty swan]

the problem is that midgame and one-off pcs are still nerfed, which is a big part of why people are upset. this buff only applies to looping, which is one of the worst things to buff for pcs imo because it was also one of the most unhealthy parts of the game. youre basically just playing single player blitz and your opponent has to survive that each round start in order to start playing the game, and theres very little counterplay and risk to doing it

[bold smelt]

It could be fun to have PCs having a unique interaction with surge, something like sending the surge attack while consuming only half the charge

[noble sky]

that's fair but once again... you can tweak to find a compromise. it's gonna be very difficult to find a solution that caters to every playstyle and every skill level, that's just the reality of the matter

and that's what my suggestion was, a compromise from a person who doesn't even know any PC solves

i can definitely understand your concerns though

[lusty swan]

im not sure what you mean by a compromise, the compromise is to keep looping balanced/making it not so overpowered and oppressive, while keeping non-looped pcs rewarding and fun

your suggestion pretty heavily incentivizes looping while keeping non looped pcs the same, which people will still complain about, arguably even moreso than they are now

[noble sky]

i think it's going to be more nuanced, but please do take my opinion with a pinch of salt because i haven't experienced that in TL myself. maybe your previous suggestion really is better, i don't know, and that's why we're here to discuss 🙂

[lusty swan]

what do you mean by more nuanced? the solution, the problem, something else?

[hidden cove]

yeah, at lower levels the problems that the nerf intends to target (the game effectively becoming unplayable without "breaking the loop", where the loop is effectively almost a free win) don't really present themselves

[noble sky]

the loop incentive. but i can definitely agree with you that it will make the one-off midgame PC's less exciting. but i feel like this whole nerf was the point of that... nerfing PC's altogether.

what about a different suggestion. instead of boosting PC's based on how many times you clear them, why not boost them based on how long the match has gone on?

0-10 seconds: 3 damage
10-20 damage: 4 damage
etc....
max 6? 8? who knows

maybe let it scale more quickly? 3-5-7-9? at 0, 10, 20, 30 seconds?

[viscid linden]

The solution I'm kind of thinking over that kind of solves both of the problems is to change the PC back to 6, but within the first 21 pieces, all PCs you do will add one garbage to your board
Yes, something that will have an effect to you as well. I'm not giving this solution up until now, and that's probably because I'm not seeing other suggestions on how PCs should work, it's just points on the existing solutions on how PC should be in TL.

This solution is as weird as it is, I know, but if we're talking about this game where PC is already sending 3 lines, I don't think it sounds outrageous

[bold smelt]

Dont need to be only at the start, it could always do so

[lusty swan]

i dont see what else would happen from your proposal other than the looping meta coming back to life a bit, the only way to make use of pcs that increase in damage the more you do is to loop them. the whole controversy around this is that pcs are too nerfed, i agree that they shouldnt do 10 damage and this change has been pretty good, but to a lot of people it feels like they might as well not be rewarded in the first place. thats why pcs should do 6 damage won the vote, slightly more rewarded so that theyre still viable, but not so damaging that theyre oppressive

its probably best not to set an arbitrary limit if possible and to keep it the same all throughout the game

[bold smelt]

You might just get counter spiked too easily tho

Was there any thought about PCs sending double hole garbage ? It could be explored too

[hidden cove]

if only 4pps+ loops hadn't been so strong that counterspiking was also barely a solution, by the time you tank, the DPC sends another 18+ at you

[carmine sand]

countered

[viscid linden]

Kek I have to go home now, will continue the convo later, hope I don't forget the reply on this

[hidden cove]

PC backfire is a fun idea that had come up before in the past

[lusty swan]

double hole garbage is pretty powerful and disruptive, also kinda messes with your expectations when literally every other attack is single hole. seems too gimmicky imo

[lusty swan]

pc backfire was kind of a concept with the color clear character injecting one colored line of garbage when you do one

[noble sky]

how's that bring the loop meta back? are you expecting the opponent still not to have sent any garbage 30 seconds in?

[lusty swan]

because looping would be the only way to utilize pcs effectively, opener or midgame, because if you dont pcs remain at 3 and arent even worth considering to be used most of the time

[noble sky]

is this in response to my time based suggestion?

because if your first PC would be 30 seconds in it would still deal hella damage

[lusty swan]

no its for the first suggestion

[noble sky]

then let's put that suggestion aside xd

because as you said it does have its imperfections

[lusty swan]

okay, time based is pretty bad because if the players are fast, the matches wont last that long

[bold smelt]

Well yeah, but this is kinda my point, PCs are a kinda unique thing, so rewarding them with a unique, maybe gimmicky thing might be the right path

[noble sky]

just.... tweak the numbers man

if you think 30 seconds is too much, set it to 20, 15, idk

[lusty swan]

that isnt a solution to the underlying problem of people playing at different speeds

[carmine sand]

yeah really just base it on pieces placed

[lusty swan]

i just think its a bit too much

[lofty dragon]

though pieces placed is better, it's still pretty artificial like the 14 piece rule

[lusty swan]

double hole garbage is also really hard for beginners to clear, so that could become a problem in the lower levels

[lusty swan]

a much simpler solution is just to have pcs send like 4-6 at any point in the round

they dont really need to scale

[noble sky]

then... i don't understand why we're having this discussion in the first place

[hidden cove]

reminder that loopers generally do the loop with 4 pps, while the actual midgame can fall down to 2pps

if the loop is strong enough, they can block all incoming damage

[lusty swan]

because you brought up a solution and im trying to argue about why i dont think that solution is a good idea?

[lusty swan]

double hole garbage really messes with things because its really hard to clear tetrises once you need to deal with your garbage well, so youre basically forced to have less attack while downstacking is also more difficult. double hole garbage also basically turns large sends into cheese automatically, so it's pretty strong

[noble sky]

if your idea of a good baseline of attack for PC's are 4-6

then just make the first PC deal 4 damage
and every PC onwards 6

problem solved and that would be perfectly implementable with my initial suggestion

[lusty swan]

why does the first pc need to send 4

[bold smelt]

Ye, to be fair i was thinking at most 2 or 3 lines of it, more would be crazy indeed

[lusty swan]

i meant anywhere from 4-6

[noble sky]

so you're not happy with sending 4 lines because you could've gotten 6? despite saying you'd be happy with PC's being 4-6 damage?

[lusty swan]

yeah but you need to consider more because despite lowered attack they can still be looped at pretty high speeds

[lusty swan]

its just needlessly complicated to have changing values

[noble sky]

ok

🤷

[lusty swan]

im pretty sure a lot of people would be happy with pcs sending 6 lines

[bold smelt]

Then make it 4 lines of double hole and one line to self lol

[noble sky]

you know what dude

you be you lol

i got my own ideas, you got yours

let's just agree to disagree

[lusty swan]

?

[carmine sand]

considering the track record of this thread.....

[lusty swan]

i just meant that i said after my suggestion that it would be better to just have 1 value all across the board, your solution encourages looping so i was saying that if anything it should be the reverse (they do less attack over time instead of more) to discourage looping, but the best solution is just to have it be 1 value that is rewarding enough for 1 pc but not too broken for looped pcs

im fine with agreeing to disagree

[lusty swan]

ok but imagine being a B rank and having to deal with 4 lines of double hole garbage at the start of every round

[hushed mesa]

clearly the solution is for pcs to send 0 garbage lines, instead sending a 10 second unskippable ad directly into the center of their board

[brisk dome]

remember the 14 line rules exists

pcs can send some lines and it's not the end of the world

[lofty dragon]

how does this thread have 2.4k messages 💀 this is genuenly the longest thread I've ever seen on discord

[brisk dome]

ngl the 7+x thread might have been longer

[hushed mesa]

7+x thread:

[lusty swan]

the 7+x thread had over 12k messages

[bold smelt]

7+x lmao

[lofty dragon]

oh wow-

[lusty swan]

yeah

[lofty dragon]

people REALLY care about openers i guess

[brisk dome]

i hope osk can get something anything whatever useful out of this

[lusty swan]

not just openers

[lofty dragon]

*the opener phase more specifically

[lusty swan]

it was very controversial because it messed with the flow of the game, but i digress

[brisk dome]

bro digresses

[lusty swan]

true!

[lofty dragon]

I mean midgame pcs are also a point of discussion here but loops are the main time pcs are used

[lusty swan]

yeah people want midgame pcs to remain cool though

[noble sky]

new suggestion:
pairs RNG in S3 TL

[lofty dragon]

and they were probably nerfed because of opener pcs, I doubt anyone had a problem because of old midgame pcs

[lusty swan]

now theres basically no point in them

[bold smelt]

Well i'm not B, but it doesnt seem that bad, you can still counter the lines

[brisk dome]

the thing people want is for pcs to be cool, but not overpowered

thats kind of it

[lofty dragon]

in s3 you only get one piece, randomly decided at the start of the game

[lusty swan]

double hole garbage is just really strong

[noble sky]

let'sgoooo

[lofty dragon]

double hole garbage is genuenly near impossible to downstack, especially quickly

[lusty swan]

i also think its too gimmicky of a solution when we can just have 6 damage but "gimmicky" is a bit too subjective

[brisk dome]

and considering this is targeted for low ranks...

[lusty swan]

yes

[lofty dragon]

if someone could send pressure after sending double hole garbage it's basically a free kill

[lusty swan]

basically a death sentence at lower ranks, and a big disadvantage at higher ranks

[hushed mesa]

hear me out: what if pcs gave you a charge that tripled the next attack you send

[brisk dome]

how bout pcs send bomb garbage, and at first it's clean but gets messier into the midgame

[lusty swan]

then whats stopping someone from getting a 20+ spike off of a tetris+tspin

15 damage tsd into powerstacked tetris

[bold smelt]

18 lines TST without b2b damn

[brisk dome]

it'd be easy to survive in the opener if you can ds to the collumn of bombs, and pretty balanced in the midgame because combos are easier with bombs

[hushed mesa]

setup pc into tst when

[brisk dome]

its not too hard for beginners to understand, it feels special for the person doing the pc

im a genus!

[lusty swan]

bombs is also really gimmicky and disruptive, i dont really want to play another game mode for a short time because my opponent chose to use a pc

[bold smelt]

Could be funny ngl

[hushed mesa]

bomb garbage is super free clean

[lusty swan]

yeah big attacks too

[hushed mesa]

[hidden cove]

i love bombs but i don't think it makes sense for it to be in tl (same for total mayhem bag)

[brisk dome]

it wouldn't be that much tbh

eh

i guess

honestly i think it would be fine

a cool thing that happens when you clear all the minos

you send the All Clear Funny Thing wow!

like if i was a low rank i would like that honestly

[lusty swan]

it can be abused for high counterspike, also slightly complicated especially if youre new to the game, youre basically only going to see it in 1 part of the game and its a different game mode

you basically explode if you send bomb garbage to your opponent midgame too

[brisk dome]

ehhhhhhhh

[hushed mesa]

pcs should send 1 extra width to their board 🙏

[lusty swan]

😭

[brisk dome]

it wouldn't be that bad imo

because the person making the pc is the initiator, you decide whether to risk a counterspike

[lusty swan]

its just overly complicated and gimmicky

[noble sky]

for every PC you perform you convert the 3 next pieces in the opponents board to pentominoes

[brisk dome]

its not that complicated tbh

its just a special type of garbage for a special clear

it feels pretty simple for me

[bold smelt]

Stupid, i like it

[lusty swan]

it kinda is compared to it just sending normal garbage

and giving your opponent bomb garbage seems to be a pretty bad nerf tbh

[brisk dome]

i really fail to see how

replying to the first, not the second btw

[bold smelt]

If we're going for weird stuff : PC sends opponent surge to themselves (they keep the chage)

[brisk dome]

yeah you have a point, but even if pcs dont do that much, i really want them to have something more special than....

3 lines

some b2b

[hushed mesa]

pcs give you 1 tetriobuck

[lusty swan]

ok ill concede on that part then

[lusty swan]

whats wrong with 6 lines

and some b2b (maybe)

[brisk dome]

oh actually i like 6 lines send

i always did

i forgor about it 💀

[hushed mesa]

perhaps pcs could send slow garbage (like in qp)

so it's harder to kill

[brisk dome]

we are gimmicking

the gimmicker

[bold smelt]

It feels bland, and might be enough to make looping a pain

Id rather have pc send 0 but give a lot of b2b

[lusty swan]

much better than 10 lines and pcs still feel special, you also have the 14 piece cancel bonus which isnt very useful for the pcer bc 2 pcs is like 20 ish pieces

[brisk dome]

i think a lot of the people in this thread are way too sensitive to looping lol, with the 14 line rule it's really very level
you have quite a lot of time to send something to break the loop, if you can't do that, then you aren't the better player

if there was no 14l rule then i would agree with you

a lot

lmao

im going to bed 😭

cya

[lusty swan]

[hidden cove]

if loops didn't make PCs trivial, then this would be hilarious

[bold smelt]

My main concern is not really pc-pc-dpc, it is more other loops like sdpc-dpc, where the 14 pieces cancel might even help them in some cases

And PCs never felt that special imo, even with 10 lines.

[lusty swan]

Do they really need to be more special than big glowing text that says "ALL CLEAR" while sending lines? They're super common and well understood to the point people can loop them incredibly quickly and endlessly, so idk how that can be made more special without drastically messing with the balance of the game

They're also really luck based outside of openers so rewarding that too much is a bit questionable imo

[bold smelt]

Then why is 3 + 2b2b is a problem ?

I'm fine with that personally, but many people claim PC do not stand out anymore

[lusty swan]

I personally don't care too much either but I think it's not too unreasonable to add a little more damage

As long as it's not as oppressive as it used to be

[lofty dragon]

https://youtube.com/shorts/5Mp3Xnh_qLI?si=djKg0GNUiD_jH3CP

unless a good reason can be given as to why this should do LESS ATTACK THAN SDPC SPIN then pcs should be buffed past 3

(that video would be around 17 attack with the new 3 attack pc system, sdpc spin does 20)

[hidden cove]

why this should do LESS ATTACK THAN SDPC SPIN
because there is no quad or tsd (or other t-spin) in it, it's skimming a 4 height 10-wide box

[lofty dragon]

???????

[hidden cove]

just because it says all clear doesn't mean it should be an insta-win. honestly sometimes it isn't. it being insta-kill is nice for content but only if you're a youtuber because "having a cool looking attack that wins is good for content"

[lofty dragon]

doing 5 freestyle pcs is significantly harder than a t-spin or quad

[hidden cove]

for the game itself, having such disporoportionate ttack power for a single move without requiring an actual board to do it is kinda broken

[lofty dragon]

that's the point

that's why pcs were even usable

[hidden cove]

and that's why the freestyle PC tournament that firestorm was winning was quite fun, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing to have the whole versus experience be about it.,

[lofty dragon]

but it isn't

[hidden cove]

maybe not as much at your rank 😮‍💨

also, when i get quad-PC in the new system, it sends 8

[bold smelt]

And keeps b2b

While adding 2

[hidden cove]

it was probably because of 1 combo + quad, so 4+3+1

[neon heath]

In my experience, looper or pc spammer, just drag them to midgame..

[hidden cove]

if you accidentally somehow cannot get the garbage under them because they go extra sweaty and do 4.5 pps, then suddenly it becomes about whether they misdrop, not whether you're playing the game

[neon heath]

Isnt that the challenge though

[hidden cove]

below SS rank it was generally "is it early O , or can i play the game pls"

[neon heath]

If you want you can keep your L and not do anything about it or at least try something to prevent it

[hidden cove]

in U rank, it was generally "if it's early O, then i have to early-TSD at the right time otherwise they win without ever having to interact with garbage"

[bold smelt]

The challenge being "is my opponent gonna missdrop" ?

[neon heath]

The challenge being you being competent enough to not let them all clear.

[hidden cove]

making the game be about that is bad for player retention

it also shows that all clears were disproportionately overpowered compared to any other attack formation in the game

even though it is something that was easiest to do at the beginning of the game

[lofty dragon]

so you're saying you have to play the game to counter them?

crazy how that works like that

[neon heath]

Just saying bro, pcs werent really as hard to not make them happen in my experience

[hidden cove]

the whole game against opener mains is to force them to not be able to PC, after which they complain about how "tehy don't want to play a cheesy game"

[neon heath]

I dont care if my opponent is 4.5pps pc

If I send a spike before their 2nd pc, I win

[hidden cove]

they are clearly also not as hard to make them happen as to make them do 10 damage each

[lofty dragon]

also realistically how many players were openers mains???

[hidden cove]

about 85%

[neon heath]

Where is your data from

[hidden cove]

with the end of s1, and sheetbot down, obviously it's a bit trickier now

it would have been trivial to check this 3 weeks ago yk

[lusty swan]

what are you doing to send a spike before 2nd pc

[hidden cove]

fairy cannon... opener

[neon heath]

Opener to midgame?

[hidden cove]

where is the midgame if the PC looper wins

why is the opener insta-kill

[neon heath]

I take a TSS so I get all the clean in the 1st pc

then spike back?

[lusty swan]

they can get to 2nd pc within like 4-5 seconds

[neon heath]

I can spike within that time frame

[hidden cove]

i love it when they get to get it anyway because of lag

anyway i'ma draw somethin hold on

[neon heath]

Yall just die and not defend about it

Im not even an opener main myself lol

Fairy or not, its still reliably easy to counter pcs

[bold smelt]

No, in S1 I just sdpc like half the player base

Aint fun

[neon heath]

Thats because no one adapts to it

[lusty swan]

i mean maybe im just skill diffed but its not really fun exploding for a single mistake at the start of every round

[neon heath]

Its your fault for making the said mistake anyway what

[lusty swan]

mistake being misdrop because im pushing my speed to stop them before their loops becomes unstoppable

[neon heath]

Arent you a STD user, id find it easy to counter a S1 pc with said start

[lofty dragon]

maybe don't make the same mistake very round?

[hidden cove]

ATTACK SHOWCASE: which one is more interesting,
1.)

2.)

[neon heath]

Chat where is practice here

[hidden cove]

i've played 1440 hours and still screw up every now and then because of timing

it must be incredibly nice to get something right 100% of the time

[neon heath]

Im not sayinf its 100%, I know its completely my fault if I made a mistake anyway

[hidden cove]

on the other hand, in S2 the losses are genuine and outskilled

not just opener spam

[sleek meteor]

what's wrong with 5 lines then?

[hidden cove]

you only lose to a single mistake against opener loop because the opener loop is op

[lusty swan]

i can 3.5-4pps std first couple of bags

[neon heath]

Then isnt that good enough..?

[lofty dragon]

okay now replace this with this

[hidden cove]

there is no other attack in the game without additional effort that sends so much damage

[lusty swan]

not in my experience

[neon heath]

Then idk man

STD feels like a very good opener to counter pcs

[lusty swan]

i mean its not like i can use std every round in the first place

[neon heath]

since its a literal tss start to tst

[hidden cove]

sailboat

[young elk]

that's kinda misrepresenting - how do you get to both situations? that plays in how people perceive this happening

[neon heath]

same applies when yall bring up fairy to my face lol

[lusty swan]

but the game being decided within the first 5 seconds every round just isnt very enjoyable imo

[hidden cove]

tbf fairy looks cool but PCs are still strong regardless

the fairy cannon build has its own innate attack poewr because it has t-spins

[lofty dragon]

^^^^

[hidden cove]

once you watch enough of the game you know it's not true that this is a misrepresentation

you see OSZ and you'lre like omg it's this shit again.

[neon heath]

Simply not let it happen, whoever loses or wins said round is the better player

[neon heath]

Would you not take a free round

especially if its TL

[lofty dragon]

seems like a lot of people disgree with you

on your numbers

[neon heath]

A mode with stakes

[lofty dragon]

no one said above 30% opener mains

[hidden cove]

why should the game provide a way to get a free round without any risk involved by giving loops extra power again

[young elk]

as a watcher of a decent amount of the game i'm pretty sure both can be impressive by how you get to the end result

[hidden cove]

8 votes

where even is this poll

[neon heath]

Do tell why you learned SDPC @bold smelt

[lofty dragon]

lobby

I'll update later once it's ends but I'm just saying no one agrees with 85% in teh slighetst

[young elk]

finding a specific dono can be impressive because of how a player uses whatever pieces they have
same goes for pcs

[lofty dragon]

also pictured is a U rank saying opener mains are rare in U

[lusty swan]

im just saying i dont think anyone really enjoyed fighting opener mains, sure i can suffer for my decision to not play 100% optimally and use dpc loops and whatnot but idk

[bold smelt]

I learnt it when i was interested in openers, and because its strong af

[neon heath]

what would you say to people who dont know about it

reliability?

[neon heath]

Werent we on just pcs and not openers

[bold smelt]

That you can learn it, but its a one way trip to hell

[hidden cove]

ok in that case, attack showcase:

1.)

2.)

[lusty swan]

ill just say there are 8 people voting in that poll

[bold smelt]

This is litterally what i told my friends

[young elk]

the opinion hasn't changed

[lusty swan]

yeah i meant pc based opener mains

[young elk]

how one gets to it plays into how people think of it

[neon heath]

But I was on for 1st pc..

[lusty swan]

what

[neon heath]

Its why I told you STD works well against PC..

skull

[hidden cove]

"they literally just learned the setup and are repeating it over and over with high speed instead of actually playing the versus game "

is what PC looping getting a win looks like from the outside

[neon heath]

moving on, since its opener mains this time

What does tss do to a cspin main

[lusty swan]

no i literally said pc based opener mains

[young elk]

not sure about it being fully the "outside"

[lusty swan]

i think youre twisting my words a little

[neon heath]

idk im just confused about the words mb then lol

[lusty swan]

yeah its fine discussions can be hard to follow with so many people

[neon heath]

but i really do feel that it was possible to counter it despite old s1

[hidden cove]

well on the inside it's "oh i'm fighting one of these bullshit strat users again"

"now i have to worry about getting uneven garbage on their board so they don't just keep looping"

"yet another one of these games"

"where is mxmossy when you want a real game"

[neon heath]

thats just my experience though, i am kinda close to you tr wise lol

[lusty swan]

i never said that it wasnt possible to counter, and i did try my best but im saying its not fun, no reason to keep it at 10 when its fine at like 6

[neon heath]

yeah im fine with 6

[young elk]

what are you on about bruva

[neon heath]

💀

wtf bro

[young elk]

literally unable to follow this part

[neon heath]

LMAO

[lusty swan]

oh yeah time to backread eyevy's conversation

[neon heath]

im just not fine with it being 3 thats all

[hidden cove]

mxmossy is plonk/infds so you actually get to interact in the game, not just them blitzing on you and flexing that they're so fast you can't even touch them

[neon heath]

not saying it should be back to 10

[hidden cove]

but only until you touch them when they drop 2.4 pps

[lofty dragon]

8 people who stongly disagree with zhun's percentage

[hidden cove]

and you're like "oh there's no follow-iup"

[hidden cove]

so it's selection bias

[lofty dragon]

how so?

[hidden cove]

it's like one of those facebook posts

"hey friends can you put a like on m,y cat so i win the popularity contest"

i never heard of that poll, so obviously i didn't vote in it.

i presume as it has 8 people, most people haven't.

[young elk]

still no clue who they are lol

[lusty swan]

sample size is small thats all, they dont represent the whole thousands of players in those ranges

[hidden cove]

cuz they're U and you're high X

[neon heath]

Zhun I'm just gonna tell you this once, but you have been literally almost declining every suggestion being said here, and I clearly see why people are against you at the moment, why not let people talk

[hidden cove]

that one dude who was fun to fight in TL

[young elk]

what does that have to do with..... anything?

[young elk]

again you're confusing af

[hidden cove]

i was posting what PC looping in versus is like when you're watching it and when you're playing against it

even when i won with 4 PCs it was funny but it is also effectively like a gimmick

it means opponent couldn't even make a move and they already died

[lusty swan]

using a person people may not know probably isnt great if youre using an example to get your point across

[neon heath]

^

"Lysette knows how to counter all clears, therefore there shouldnt be a pc nerf"

[hidden cove]

ting704 and quarpi01 are also notable in interesting gameplay at higher ranks

[neon heath]

[hidden cove]

considering it's a nerf that intends to primarily fix the hellscape of S+/SS/U, it's not really a surprise

X can obviously already match opener burst speed to counter

the problem was the game heavily rewarding something so easily repeatable (with exact steps for execution for any bag)

[young elk]

ok so like this specific one probably is common - in the sense that when there's a round that is lost quickly, this is something common to think

[hidden cove]

the opener phase focus (of 8 second long games??) was effectively a problem

[willow marsh]

#tetra·league message huh i wonder who did that

[young elk]

the rest i have like
no clue about

[neon heath]

Bloody hell lol

[hidden cove]

yet another one of those "it wouldn't bother you if it was supporting your cause" moments

[young elk]

it would be biased regardless of side

[hidden cove]

the whole point of asking for a PC buff is effectively "i want to get strategy back that prevents my opponent from playing the game at all"

[neon heath]

I clearly know this is an issue in the lower rated areas, but I really do feel that all clears still shouldnt send lesser than a quad

[lofty dragon]

name one person who did this in reverse

one please

[lusty swan]

most people arent saying they want it back to 10 lines, i think around 6 is reasonable enough

[hidden cove]

aka "i want to use PC loop so i can win without any player interaction beyond executing the blitz loop"

[lofty dragon]

I have not said anything about this thread what the conversation wasn't already about it, I have only done polls without further context

[neon heath]

6 is honestly reasonable enough

[young elk]

general consensus is that 10 is too strong and 3 is too weak

[neon heath]

This decision of mine also has the intention to resolve a little about the low ranks state

[young elk]

how does it mean that people want to keep 10

[neon heath]

This whole thread was about the pc nerf being too heavy, and you are out here wanting it like that or even 0.. I think most people would really agree to not let it go back to 10, but maybe something lower than that

[young elk]

the poll here has a range of 5 to 8

[lofty dragon]

I personally think 7-8 would be perfect because you would be able to tank 2 pcs but it isn't too little to be useless otherwise

[neon heath]

Does this account for what kind of clear you took in the said all clear

[lusty swan]

actually think with 7-8 sdpc starts becoming a problem again, especially with tss being able to cancel tsd

[young elk]

also i'm technically a target of this change (because of being an opener main) and i agree that both ends of 10 and 3 are bad

[lofty dragon]

fair, 7 then as the average sent from the line clear themselves are normally 1 or 2

[obtuse storm]

6 👍

nice and clean and its more efficient than quads so possibly worth using

[lusty swan]

seems to be the consensus ye

[neon heath]

yippee finally an agreement

[lofty dragon]

I feel like 7 is fairer but 6 is fine

[lusty swan]

i mean i thought it was the agreement even before this conversation happened

[obtuse storm]

ye

[neon heath]

i guess the convo got me to places HAHA

[obtuse storm]

3 too little 10 too much, 6 is a decent round middle point that doesn't seem oppressive

[lofty dragon]

okay we finally agree can we now close this thread so I can regain part of my sanity please

[neon heath]

just come back to it once in a while, I honestly want to see what other people think as well

[obtuse storm]

who is arguing against 6 being too much rn

[lusty swan]

zhun

[obtuse storm]

lol

[lusty swan]

unless hes just horribly misunderstood what everyone's been saying and thinks we all want it back at 10

[lofty dragon]

who agrees on 6

[neon heath]

just let other people cook first fr

also assuming it would be 6

[lofty dragon]

we've been letting people cook

for too long actually

[neon heath]

a quad pc would send 10 right

[lofty dragon]

2.7k messages too long

[neon heath]

not a pc person myself to know that

[lusty swan]

yeah without b2b or combo

[neon heath]

icic

[lofty dragon]

ok I've come around it 6 is actually pretty good and maybe better than 7

since with quad is still 10

but getting quad pc is rare

[neon heath]

if you choose your openers right, you can take advantage of the 14 piece rule i think

[lusty swan]

mm idk, i think sdpc cancels std now right

[neon heath]

mmmm

unfortunately lol

[obtuse storm]

it goes both ways thuogh

[neon heath]

sdt is the way

[obtuse storm]

since sdpc still wont be super oppressive

and you can easil cancel it

[neon heath]

yah

[lofty dragon]

14 piece rule fucking sucks, but that's a discussion for another thread

[obtuse storm]

fax

[neon heath]

just saying that since its a thing rn :p

[lusty swan]

if you want another thing to give your opinions on i would appreciate yall checking out #1269727999528538162

[lusty swan]

tbh i think it does its job, maybe itll be worse with pcs back up at 6 but you dont feel opener pressure as much atm

[neon heath]

i havent really played around with it as much

[dusk marsh]

pc should give 5 b2b if u got none and 2 if u got any

[hidden cove]

unironically i think that would be good

[dusk marsh]

ye pc breaks b2b all the time so why do u have to lose itttttttt

cause u mostly skim for pcs

also

[hidden cove]

i like the idea of 5 b2b because you either just send 2 lines fast or it promotes upstack

i would think sdpc/dpc wouldn't become overpowered from that especially as you'd get +2 not +5 if you already had b2b anyway

[hidden cove]

+2 charge is what i meant with the +2 at the end, and 3 damage is b2bx5 rn

:thonk: pc should give 5 b2b if u got none and 2 if u got any
so i do think that would probably be
1.) fun
2.) not overpowered
3.) rewarding

[dusk marsh]

[hidden cove]

new PC problem is that 2x b2b does not activate surge charge (4+)

if it did, you'd get a "nyoom" effect

[broken brook]

garbo has a good point for the pc nerf but come onnn b2b x2, that's still barely anything

[lofty dragon]

cool idea but if you want that don't give it 2 b2b 😭😭

in most discussions of the pc nerf b2b completely ignored from how inconsequential it is

[broken brook]

aight here comes another poll lol

[hidden cove]

what is this "charge on blank board"

[broken brook]

hold on i'll edit

[hidden cove]

I kinda want it like set to 5 if you have 0 but only add +2 if you have at least 3

[lofty dragon]

25 b2b

[broken brook]

again, if you're unsure but know it's in a range, say +7 to +9, you can vote for +7, +8, and +9

[lusty swan]

Isn't 4 +1 charge?

[hidden cove]

if 4 is 1 charge and 5 is 2, then the poll is off again

[lusty swan]

Yeah everything is offset by 1 I believe

@broken brook

[lofty dragon]

damn

pc nerf is only the second least liked change (other than mini spins), people dislike the 14 piece rule and new b2b significantly more

[limpid fjord]

i think someone here brought up how bad the rounds are being played at the top level already

so yea not surprising given that most rounds are pushed to margin time because current b2b rule doesnt kill at all until 23+ chain

[lofty dragon]

yea

surge is honestly an ffa mechanic not a 1v1 mechanic

[limpid fjord]

i think it was a decent idea but removing b2b ramping was like removing what made tetr.io stand out from other clients

[lofty dragon]

it works well when you're living for 6+ mins consistantly and rack up lots of b2b, but for faster 1v1s it does not mix well

[lofty dragon]

yea

honestly b2b ramping up was one of the most unique changes tetrio had, along with multiplier combos, I think removing that and making it more generic is not a good idea

[limpid fjord]

like honestly no ramping hurts unlimited clients so much because it becomes the jstris meta of inf dsing until you magically find a huge ds spike or the game is pushed to margin time and its who outlives the other at row 16

[lusty swan]

maybe move b2b discussion to the other thread?

[limpid fjord]

ye

getting off topic anyway 3 lines sent still suck for pc

[lofty dragon]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1270457598277320714

another thread of s2 in general and not just specific changes

[limpid fjord]

yay my place to rant because i cant 1app

[lusty swan]

Idk if that's really necessary, maybe would be better as a thread in #tetra·league or other channels tbh

[carmine sand]

[brisk smelt]

ok i was reading this thread for fun and i think its kinda funny how zhun has 2 points for midgame pc they use alot and i think its kinda funny how they contradict each other

"midgame pcs should not be rewarded because it is heavily rng dependant" "3 lines is a buff anyways"

[hidden cove]

well there is no reason for it to be a kill spike

but now you can safely take it

but if you've been reading the thread, you know this

[brisk smelt]

well imo i still like the suprise factor and midgame pcs being actually able to kill

like its kinda cool to get a round off midgame pc

but 3 lines +2b2b is so sad it feels awful

even tho its rng its kinda cool both to send midgame pc and kill and survive midgame pc

now it just sends 3 so its uncool to both send and to recieve cause u just recieve cheese

[hidden cove]

well yea, sending cheese is a buff

that's what i've been saying

you're not supposed to be helping your opponent build with your attacks

[brisk smelt]

theres no way u believe 3 lines of cheese is better than 10 lines of clean

like its not that hard to ds 3 lines of chese man even if u get counterspiked by pc clean u can still counterspike the counterspike

[hidden cove]

you are probably getting the PC as part of an already ongoing DS attack anyway

it just adds a lil' bit of extra cheese you don't need to worry about

[lusty carbon]

omg it's still 6 lol

just give it 6 lines lol

[hidden cove]

3+2 really

[lusty carbon]

I thought we already agreed on this

b2b just makes it a delayed 6 spike

[hidden cove]

3 immediate + 2 guaranteed surge damage buff

[lusty carbon]

isn't that basically now

or guaranteed as in you don't have to build b2b anymore

[meager ledge]

well i like how a midgame pc could be a decision you have to make

“do you trust that it will do enough to kill or could it backfire”

in a game with minimal macro/player interaction, this kind of stuff isnt bad

[hushed mesa]

what if pcs sent 3+ your surge (without breaking the surge)

[wide sky]

But don't most PC's break b2b ?

[quick prism]

yeah that is a problem too
all spin helps a bit but oftentimes you can't all spin the whole PC, you end up breaking b2b
I also feel kind of scammed when it says b2b 1 after a PC but that's a personal thing

[wide sky]

One idea that hasn't been discussed much is to restore x% of previous b2b, so that it helps midgame PC more than opener PC. This aligns with the design of backloading damage, rather than frontloading. It also is more aimed at top ranks, who can maintain high b2b.

If a midgame PC sent 6 lines and restored 50% of previous b2b, it could be a manageable spike, while not going completely all-in to lose the b2b.

For reference, I personally liked the all-in concept of midgame PC's of Season 1. Sure midgame PC's were RNG, but as a Tetris fan, I enjoyed watching pros go into midgame PC's to break up the b2b leveling of Season 1. Maybe it was the satisfying sound or the sight of the words All Clear, or the fact they're giving up their titanic b2b stat stick to all-in their opponent that was amazing and hype, but I'd be sad to see midgame PC's gone from Tetrio.

[hidden cove]

i was thinking of that but i'm not sure how to remember "the nearest b2b count before the PC happened but it sent a surge but it was not necessarily a combo"

[obtuse storm]

Lol I took a midgame pc with b2bx8 out of instinct and it just broke my b2b chain and sent 3 💀

Basically just felt like misdropping lol

[hidden cove]

shouldn't it send surge ?

[main yacht]

guess now we can only take s/z/l/j‐spin‐double pcs if we want to keep b2b

[obtuse storm]

5 attack surge lol in exchange for breaking b2bx8

Not a great feeling

Ok well 8 attack total

[carmine sand]

nah, the line clear that does the all clear is ok, it's the ones that preceed it that are the issue

[main yacht]

ooh i see

[obtuse storm]

Ye I needed to skim a single and then do PC with a triple or smth

[main yacht]

that kinda sucks

would be nice if that kept the b2b

[lyric dirge]

agreed

[willow abyss]

I think the main reason I'm winning more often is because my opponents are still basing their attacks on all clears, but I think the playerbase could learn eventually. Some all clear opportunities I got recently that I would have gone after, I deliberately avoided in favor of my surge attack.

Though I wouldn't mind if the all clear attack was raised slightly

[warm hornet]

repeating my point that 6 is a nice middle ground

[willow abyss]

Yeah, I'd be fine with 6. Probably not any higher though in my opinion

[warm hornet]

enough that it is viable to go for, but not too much that spamming is too poweful

[lyric dirge]

i miss the 10 line all clears 😭

[willow abyss]

All Clears kinda have that element where it demands an answer from the opponent, but if the All Clear is too strong it can't be answered in some cases

If you don't do a spike to stop it, then you're going to lose if they loop it

Like a 0 to death in a fighting game

[warm hornet]

i think a fair way is just to make pc send 6 but +4 b2b

[lyric dirge]

ahhhh

[warm hornet]

then that's equiv to 10

[lyric dirge]

i like that

[willow abyss]

I dunno, could be too strong still

[hidden cove]

It was nerfed for a reason. But I do like 3 send and +2 guaranteed surge damage add

The current b2bx1 is kinda not much

[willow abyss]

Would definitely favor all clears done in an existing B2B chain though

[hidden cove]

Maybe b2b x3?

Although with a quad clear it is strong

[warm hornet]

i want to consider that pc leaves you with an empty board

pc was strong because 10 lines is a fairly big amount when you are upstacking

which buys you time to get your board ready again

[visual dove]

Didn't you say it a buff?

[willow abyss]

Also another problem with all clears doing 10 lines, is that it poses a bigger threat than an 8 surge attack, which gets a special warning on the opponent's board, so all clears would give a bigger surprise

[limpid fjord]

right here is the thing

zhun's 2 arguments contradict itself

[visual dove]

I'm like legitimately confused about your opinions bc you have conflicting stances

[limpid fjord]

so take it as however you want it to be

[warm hornet]

no comment on zhun's

[visual dove]

Like here you support it sending 0 but also support it sending 3 and also claim it is a buff and a nerf please pick one bc it makes your input feel disingenuous

[lyric dirge]

please not 0 lines 😭

[warm hornet]

reminder that I am a low ranked player and I'd like my opinions be considered too

[limpid fjord]

i dont think no one is going to disregard your opinion

even if you repeatedly say so

[warm hornet]

just in case

[visual dove]

Yeah and the devs are probably reading this so that's why I want actual discussion so we can like make the system actually better

😭

[warm hornet]

come to think of it there's a config switch for how much pcs send right

if there's an around a+/s- rank reading this i want to do an experiment

[lyric dirge]

theres a toggle for pc sends on custom rooms

[warm hornet]

there are new configs for how much they send and add to b2b

iirc

[willow abyss]

My pick is 4 lines + 2 B2B. Just bringing it back up a bit without being a bigger threat than the new B2B system. I think that's more of the theme that season 2 is going for

[lyric dirge]

but now mech tsd is overpowered 😭

[limpid fjord]

mech tsd also does like 0 pressure so 👍

[warm hornet]

my pick is 6 + 2 b2b; reasoning is pcs leave you with a weak board state comparatively, i don't want to encourage solely b2b chaining play style, but more varied viable strategies

[limpid fjord]

tho maybe go here if you want to discuss about b2b change https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1269727999528538162

[warm hornet]

my opinion on b2b surge i'm going to crosspost here: I think surge is a fair mechanic; it solves the problem of b2b scaling, and it encourages strategic play forcing your opponent to break b2b (so you wont die), instead of infinitely clean spikes that ping pong garbage

[limpid fjord]

off topic but here is what cz said about the ruleset https://vxtwitter.com/cz04022/status/1820021535014547856?t=Ihw66ad8u3BrY79yrcHPhA&s=19

so while you can survive b2b more easily top level games are dragged out pretty long and become stale pretty quickly

[hidden cove]

it's an opener nerf and a mid-game buff, i say that a lot

[limpid fjord]

but anyway https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1269727999528538162 👍

[broken brook]

no since i did count this ingame, if you cleared 5 hard line clears then you're going to B2B x4 which is where the first charge happens

and so essentially +1 b2b gets you to no B2B where the next hard line clear gets you to B2B x1

[broken brook]

everyone exercise your voting rights !!!

[quick prism]

I like the idea of PC sending me into an instant charge
I would be happy with that

[sacred wasp]

I fine with 6 b2b no line pc

[lusty swan]

But the way the poll is worded it makes it sound like it'll bring you to b2b 4 and thus give you that first charge

[broken brook]

i did say "+(number)" instead of "B2B x(number)"

cause indeed +5 will bring you to B2B x4?

[lusty swan]

hmm

[obtuse storm]

he says whatever argues against you

😭

if you say it buffs then it nerfs, if you say it nerfs then it buffs

[hearty dome]

nerf it to 1 im still gonna be all clearing

nuh uh

[broken brook]

funnily enough the 3 lines doesn't send enough clean for any counter to sdpc

[orchid kayak]

wow that b2b chain is cool

[hidden cove]

I like that this shows that it's technically still viable for offense

It's not instakill but it does do damage

[hearty dome]

against an X rank btw like a pretty big tr gap

just gotta play double their speed

i think its fine but kinda sad to cut out a playstyle cuz no one is good enough to beat it

[wide sky]

1. The speed difference is real, and your opponent's 2.5 pps is not keeping up with your 4.5 PPS SDPC.

2. With better timing his first tsd could have cancelled double, but only cancelled normal, but this more nitpicky.

3. If SDPC loop specifically is overpowered, can we think of ways to target nerf it, while keeping midgame PC's?

[hearty dome]

remove 14L rule and let people learn to get faster at tki

boom

sdpc never been the meta

idk

[hidden cove]

wdym never been the meta it's been the meta for like 2.5 years

[ivory imp]

what do u mean for 2.5 years

💀

[hearty dome]

if you gotta learn how to play it at 4+ pps to have a chance to kill a U rank

i think u gotta rethink that

[hushed mesa]

I feel like the new changes were intended to discourage exactly this type of gameplay 💀

can't keep em down ig

[hearty dome]

i dont like why they discourage the gameplay

thats why i play it

dont really care about rank

its tetris theres openers thats just how the game is

nerfing them to the point of being useless is

idk

[hidden cove]

ever fish smolfessh made SDPC more popular than stickspin, it has been the meta

[hearty dome]

b2b been the meta

lst also

idk about sdpc

[ivory imp]

i don't think any opener is the meta

[hearty dome]

maybe for low ranks yes

[ivory imp]

b2b is the meta for me

[hearty dome]

i dont know why they would so heavily nerf the minority which isnt even meta

[hidden cove]

it is discouraged because it makes the game a frustrating experience most of the time and people just leave instead of wanting to play more

[ivory imp]

every opener has a counter

[hearty dome]

if i spent my time learning ct4 and lst instead of 4.5 -5pps i would have been X by now prolly

[hidden cove]

what minority, it's like 70% of games with early O

[hearty dome]

then you lose to 70% of not good opener mains lol

not everyone be playing 4pps

just need to adjust thats how tetris is

is it not

[hidden cove]

this is tetrio, not tetris

this is better than tetris

honestly i haven't played TE:C in months

[hearty dome]

whats the point of changing one of the most versatile types of games to make it conform to whats easier for most people to play

[hidden cove]

braindead speed game

[hearty dome]

play puyo man

if you dont even wanna vs speed

[hidden cove]

game needs players dood

[hidden cove]

tetrio still rewards speed, i lose to most people who have a 2.7 pps avg and are actually playing well

the proposed problem is that the game is meant to favor pattern recognition, not pattern repetition

[hearty dome]

...

[hidden cove]

which is an issue because openers are, in fact, pattern repetition

[hearty dome]

i liked how it was versatile and you gotta like get to play how you want

[hidden cove]

i mean

this is not entirely true

[hushed mesa]

I'm just going to say that looping in versus is 💀 and that I hope it dies

[hidden cove]

SDPC mains got to play how they wanted because they kept winning as their shape was OP

and made the game effectively unplayable for other styles when encountered

32+ spike in 6 seconds is not normal

[hearty dome]

eventually you would get good enough to tsd bag 1 and counter

too bad there is 14p as well now

kinda two sided sword lol

[hidden cove]

oh the variety of doing early-TSD against every single early-O open

[keen hinge]

receiving those are actually fine