All Clear Nerf is too heavy

[hidden cove]

they honestly ruined PC's for everyone

[glass thicket]

Same lmao

[brisk dome]

it wouldn't, the 14 line rule is enough to keep loops out

[glass thicket]

I usually just solve pcs in my head when I'm bored

[young elk]

btw why is sdpc->dpc the main thing you're looking at
there's at least 14 openers that i've seen people use competitively to different levels of use

[round hedge]

i think they should make perfect clears after you've recieved garbage send the normal 10 because i think funny

[young elk]

most of which are not even loops

[hidden cove]

SDPC/DPC is the most annoying to play against. At least with MS2 it was fairly easy to get garbage under them (although still not guaranteed and still stupidly volatile because of C-spin + PC damage, IMMEDIATELY going for that DPC every single game (supposedly very variety or something idk))

[meager ledge]

rng quad pcs are at risk but in general yeah i see where this could go

[hidden cove]

PC openers were all annoying to play against

a matter of sending uneven garbage under them so they can't get away with bs

every step memorized and repeated

7+X was also a great way to nerf it, but it does mess up stacking for even the default stack types like 9-0

the game was more about forcing an opener main into playing midgame than about playing

early O was stressful

[brisk dome]

pc sending 6 would be fine honestly

[meager ledge]

-# uh oh weve hit several people are typing

[brisk dome]

openers are nerfed enough

[brisk dome]

seek shelter

[hidden cove]

https://x.com/oskdev/status/1807237334443729053

osk (@oskdev) on X

idea: secretly adjust the serverside seed generator to skip bags with early O

Twitter · Jun 30, 2024, 2:18 AM

we could have had this instead too

[brisk dome]

how about no

[meager ledge]

bro ive told you this is bad

[young elk]

i know this was brought up already some time ago but
if your issue with a set of moves is not being able to counter them
i don't think it's entirely the game's fault for you not being able to handle the set of moves

[hidden cove]

the moves were effectively an insta-win cheat code

[brisk dome]

yeah idk, if you are u rank, you know how to counter a loop

[meager ledge]

“i got it, lets make the bag MORE predictable”

[hidden cove]

loops just shouldn't be as heavily rewarded, and S2 fixes this

with the PC damage nerf

[young elk]

they're insta win if you don't learn to prevent the insta win

[meager ledge]

at LEAST 7+x was unpredictable

[brisk dome]

no, they aren't. if you're skilled, you can stop the loop

[hidden cove]

ok great idc i countered them like 70% of the time and it was still ass

[brisk dome]

if you choose to let them loop, you dont really get the right to complain about it as if it's some unstoppable win

[hidden cove]

SDPC/DPC loopers were the reason why teh game was only fun 40% of the time i can't blame people who left

[broken brook]

oh my god for once you brought up an actual point, good job

in defense of pcs, t-spins originally wasn't intended, and so was 7 bag, hold queue, ghost piece, and heck even garbage
these things just came around because [unnamed company that might sue tetrio] evolved and mechanics were introduced

pcs gave the game depth, a satisfying sound hits your ears upon clearing the board completely and happiness fills you as you learn to spot more and more pcs

now tell me, if i said hold queue makes the game too easy and stay at that opinion, wouldn't you be mad that something you've used for all those years are now starting to be hated on?

[brisk dome]

if you couldn't stop the loop, get better and improve

rather than trying to REMOVE it entirely

[young elk]

which is why it's kind of a bell curve - where there's an unusual majority in like ss-mid x sdpc is more common, anywhere else it's like rare

[brisk dome]

if i hate 4w, i'm going to get better at countering it

im not going to complain and try to REMOVE 4w entirely

just because i die to it

[hidden cove]

i'm happy with it being removed because it makes the game more fun (to have it removed) at every single level of play

[young elk]

evidently it has Not

[brisk dome]

for You, stop speaking for everyone else

[hidden cove]

well then what are you doing exactly

[meager ledge]

midgame pcs are fun i wont lie

[brisk dome]

not doing That

[meager ledge]

even for the recipient

[broken brook]

literally everyone in this thread is disagreeing with you
i can speak for everyone since that is literally what is happening right now

[brisk dome]

yeah once my opponent got 2 quad midgame pcs in a row, it was funny lmao

[brisk dome]

1 is less than more than 1, this is a fact

[meager ledge]

when i’ve received midgame pcs, it was deadass fun to be like oh shit i gotta get out, how am i alive holy shit

[young elk]

my basis for the arguments is on seeing what a bunch of others are saying, and a lot of it is disagreeing with 3 damage pcs

[brisk dome]

therefore 1 persons opinion isn't as many of the same opinion as more than 1 persons opinion

this may or may not be a fact

[young elk]

as well as playing with the higher end of the leaderboard

[broken brook]

i was gonna sleep 15 minutes ago omg

gn

[meager ledge]

go sleep

ok i do wanna suggest this now

pcs send very little garbage normally (3, for example)

the pc nerf is lifted for you after receiving 5 (or more) lines of garbage, to which it becomes the usual 10 (or like, 8 idk)

when you pc, it gets nerfed and you need to receive 5 more garbage, and it all repeats

5 garbage is to prevent spam and stop rng-quad pcs from being stupid

then it increases to bring back midgame pcs

whether or not it adds anything to b2b, idk

[alpine wind]

i am not the game designer tho

would like to reiterate in this thread to keep conversations civil

[brisk dome]

do you think low ranks would be aware of this or care though, it feels a bit muddled

o

[alpine wind]

we dont want to influence the flow of conversation so we're avoiding butting in as much as we can but if our rules are broken our rules are broken

[round hedge]

what if nerf consecutive pcs

[brisk dome]

there are usually skims between pcs though

so i dont know how u would accurately determine that

by time wouldnt work

[young elk]

yeeaa can't really tell when a pc ends and midgame starts or whatever

[brisk dome]

i kinda think its good if a pc's attack/special thing can be constant throughout the game

because it feels 'different' than normal clears

like when i was low rank

it felt to me like a special thing you got maybe once every couple rounds

not part of the normal game

[meager ledge]

yeah fair, weird to telegraph

(is the random starting board still worth discussing)

[brisk dome]

ngl feels like something that should be in charsys

[meager ledge]

(its not quite on topic but it would stop easy pc openers, and we can keep the pc bonus at 10)

[brisk dome]

its a cool idea

but

idk about it

wish i could test it out tbh

it would change the opener phase a whole lot i bet

similar to 7+x maybe

[meager ledge]

im sure it would sprout another very civil thread if it was tested

[brisk dome]

7+x thread part 3

lmao

[meager ledge]

anyway back on topic, if the pc damage amt is to not be changed as the match goes, id rather keep it at 3

or another small amt

[brisk dome]

honestly these types of threads usually have decent conversation until someone comes in and starts making absolutely ridiculous, exaggerated claims that have no basis in reality

[meager ledge]

actually what do we think of the pc adding 2 surge rather than 2 b2b

[brisk dome]

yeah i dont mind a small send, but i think something interesting like adding multiple b2b bonuses will be nice

[brisk dome]

like a temporary +2 surge bonus until you break b2b?

[meager ledge]

ik that puyo has it so after an all clear, your next pop sends a big chunk

[brisk dome]

that's interesting too

[hidden cove]

is 2 surge == 5 b2b ?

if like, if your b2b is lower than 5, make it 5, else add +2

[ruby flax]

*In Puyo Puyo 2. Different games give different all clear bonuses. For example, in Puyo Puyo Fever, an All Clear generates a pre-made chain

[meager ledge]

i think, but im offering that it doesnt change b2b and only does surge

[brisk dome]

yeah thats what i thought

thats really interesting

but still feels kinda underwhelming

2 extra lines

[hidden cove]

i wouldn't be opposed to 3 + 2 line(delayed)

[meager ledge]

you could make it like, 6 idk

[brisk dome]

6 surge would be nice

[hidden cove]

no

[brisk dome]

like pc will be more defensive

rather than completely offensive

yeah i like that

[meager ledge]

im just making up anumber

[hidden cove]

the goal is to make PC less viable, 3+6(delayed) is wild

[brisk dome]

i think it's nice

[meager ledge]

jeez calm down

[brisk dome]

pc is already less viable

[hidden cove]

i'm calm

[brisk dome]

openers have been nerfed to high heaven

[hidden cove]

3+3(delayed) makes sense to me

[meager ledge]

ok how bout

[brisk dome]

ugh that stinks

[meager ledge]

zero lines, 5 surge

[brisk dome]

you'll send 3 lines, and then you have 3 more lines to send later

that's not that fun

[meager ledge]

eh fair

idk

[hidden cove]

i like that it is not rewarded much atm but i think the 3 +(3delayed) is a good number.

like, is a PC really cooler than a TST.

[brisk dome]

idk making pc have defensive qualities is cool

[hidden cove]

but the (3delayed) should be limited to at most 3. separate from b2b i think.

don't collect 6+ or even 12+ damage surge from PC.

loops should not be favored by the game.

[meager ledge]

or like, the pc has 8 lines of stuff (making up a number ok it can be diff), and it ONLY cancels lines and the rest of the unused 8 becomes surge

[brisk dome]

shoulda said loops, stuff like stick is still alright

it legitimately does next to nothing compared to normal stacking

[hidden cove]

i like that SDPC can be prevented at all

[brisk dome]

it always was preventable

[hidden cove]

if you matched the burst pps, sure

[brisk dome]

some people just werent aware of how to do it, which was the problem

[hidden cove]

it was always overpowered compared to every other style of attack

[brisk dome]

you don't need to match the burst pps, you just need to make a tsd

[brisk dome]

only if you let the sdpcer get far into the loop

[meager ledge]

ok wait i coded a modern stacker game, in theory i can just test the sht we are saying

[brisk dome]

wait rlly

[meager ledge]

i dont have a computer on me rn but yes

[brisk dome]

no computer rip

oh lmao

[meager ledge]

on phone mb

[hidden cove]

i don't want to care about this.i just want to play the actual game that is not the SDPC game

[brisk dome]

ah

[hidden cove]

i played 1400 hours and SDPC/DPC loopers are the worst part.

c4w is the next.

[brisk dome]

then stop the sdpc loop and go into midgame maybe

[hidden cove]

people who do "either SDPC or c4w in every game" are doing war crimes.

[brisk dome]

oh god

[meager ledge]

tbf its easier said than done

[brisk dome]

yeah, it is a skill to stop it

[foggy sigil]

im not sure if im getting it completely correct but i think the second one can accomplished by having a system like pc mode in jstris
E.g. skims up to 4 lines after a pc doesnt breaks b2b

this way pc loops still can be viable to some extend and have a proper reward

[ebon ice]

They happen once in a blue moon but when they do it’s goated

[brisk dome]

mainly because when low ranks get them they expect something cool, but sending 3 lines and getting 2 b2b is not that cool

and the target of these opener nerfs and pc nerfs is low ranks so

[foggy sigil]

people dont get hyped because its op, they get hyped because its rare

[brisk dome]

right

[ebon ice]

I personally got a midgame pc every like 20 games but it was still nice to see a spike in middle of a game

[brisk dome]

so it should have something interesting with it, doesnt have to end the game

[hidden cove]

the goal of the rule change is to make PC loops significantly less viable, potentially to discourage their use at all

[brisk dome]

yep

[foggy sigil]

i get it but just throwing a major aspect of the game doesnt seem right to me

[meager ledge]

theyre fun as hell if theyre strong

[hidden cove]

it is the primary reason why a lot of people quit

[foggy sigil]

because by this rules its simply unusable

[brisk dome]

oh like who

[hidden cove]

that is the goal of the rule

[meager ledge]

new players im sure

[hidden cove]

i keep running into this, list 7 people and then get "oh i don't actually care, why would i care about these people i don't know" so I'm not doing this game again

[brisk dome]

what

oh

[hidden cove]

i spend too much time in #tetra·league so this is recurring

[brisk dome]

7 people isn't really a lot of people

but ok

[hidden cove]

well those are the ones i know by name

getting PC looped at every rank is the #1 thing that makes people quit

#1 complaint is "i just want to play the game"

and then they get hit with SDPC

[brisk dome]

i mean, new players will be beaten in placement matches no matter what so, i don't think it's necessarily sdpc dpc loop

[hidden cove]

which btw has like, 3 notable solves that are ~100% chance

for 25+ damage

so like, no

there's a valid reason that this rule was implemented

namely to stop SDPC being "the game"

and opener being "the game"

[foggy sigil]

i agree that people shouldnt be dependent on pc loops but it should be still a plus to spend time learning those loops

[hidden cove]

not in this game's S2 versus mode, apparently

do them in blitz

[foggy sigil]

"just quit pc" imo isnt a solution

[hidden cove]

yes it is

do better shapes

the game rule set explicitly says so

[brisk dome]

• people are not getting pc looped in every rank
• sdpc was not "the game", it's a common opener but it's not necessary to know
• you don't know that the #1 complain is "i just want to play the game", the most common complaints are probably about connection issues

stop exaggerating

please

you have your point, do it justice

[hidden cove]

the real exaggeration is that the "game is unplayable because PCs are weak"

[brisk dome]

literally NOBODY is saying this

absolutely NOBODY

[hidden cove]

you don't spend as much time in #tetra·league then lol

[brisk dome]

i don't have to to know that people are NOT SAYING that "the game is unplayable because PCs are weak"

people are saying that the pc nerf is TOO MUCH so it's NOT THAT FUN to get pcs anymore

[foggy sigil]

you can literally apply this to any aspect of the game
dont ds in vs cuz there is cheese race
dont play fast cuz there is 40l

would a game of just sending tspins and tetrises fun?

it would be very one dimentional

[meager ledge]

gentle reminder for all of us as we descend into chaos again

[brisk dome]

i mean yeah nobody's getting personal or anything

idk

[meager ledge]

just to preface the next few minutes

thats it

[hidden cove]

it wasn't fun to get SDPC'd ever

[brisk dome]

it's never fun to lose quickly in the beginning of a round

[hidden cove]

exactly

so PC nerf is justified

[brisk dome]

so, try to prevent that

[hidden cove]

PC was the only way that can send so much damage that you immediately die in 4 seconds

[brisk dome]

yes it's justified, but nerfing it this much makes it very boring

[hidden cove]

then do more interesting things

[brisk dome]

it wasn't the only way, lol

[hidden cove]

you have all-spin minis and surge

[brisk dome]

yes, but pcs exist and when you get one, especially midgame, you expect that there will be something better than 3 lines and 2 b2b

something you can get easily

[hidden cove]

color clears exist and they are not rewarded either

[brisk dome]

every game

[hidden cove]

you should be happy that something so RNG-based gets a bonus at all

(btw, i think "perform a color clear" shouldn't be a revive requirement in duo, but that is beside the point)

[brisk dome]

it's not an expectation that color clears give any bonus, regardless of why this is, you have to consider that when someone, especially a low rank, gets a pc, they expect there will be some bonus, this isn't true for color clears

[lusty swan]

not trying to derail but I think the color clear one only appears once several revives have already occured

[meager ledge]

getting t and i pieces in quick succession to nail a huge b2b-only combo is rng, and the combo table rewards this a ton

[hidden cove]

they only expect it if they knew that this used to give you a bonus. If the game just didn't say a thing, they wouldn't care about it at all. Nobody cares about color clears until anyone mentions it, either.

[brisk dome]

no, something heavily rng based, something rare, should be the thing, if any, to get a bonus

[hidden cove]

all an actually new player would notice now is that the opponent using SDPC shenanigans is not insta-killing them.

[brisk dome]

it doesn't have to be game-ending but it should still be interesting, more interesting than 3 lines and 2 b2b

[hidden cove]

if it's RNG and not intended then why reward it so much at all.

[brisk dome]

i'm not saying it needs a huge reward.

[hidden cove]

color clears are also rare, yet the game doesn't reward it.

[brisk dome]

hello

[hidden cove]

+3 damage is a buff anyway already.

[brisk dome]

up here

[brisk dome]

-7 damage is Not A Buff

[hidden cove]

i mean, i could expect to get a +3 damage for a color clear.

why not.

[meager ledge]

its basically nothing lets be real ok, i get the whole cheese thing but its just not that much cheese

[brisk dome]

yes, but low ranks, the target audience of opener and pc nerfs, will not

[hidden cove]

if it weren't for the SDPC mains, i would personally advocate for 3+3 damage from a PC.

however, due to the existence of loopers, +3 is a safe bet.

[brisk dome]

plus, color clears feel much less "special" than a pc, which is why a bonus for them isn't usually expected

[hidden cove]

color clears don't feel special because the game doesn't have a sound effect and "COLOR CLEAR!" at the top of your board.

[brisk dome]

sdpc is nerfed to an acceptable level already with the 14 line rule imo..

[hidden cove]

if it did, it would feel special.

[hidden cove]

i like it not being viable if someone collapses into it midgame.

[meager ledge]

ok they do feel flashy at least right idk

[brisk dome]

uh no, you have the order wrong.
there's no COLOR CLEAR! at the top of your board nor is there a sound effect because color clears dont intrinsically feel as special

[hidden cove]

the goal is to stop people from looping.

[brisk dome]

that goal has been fulfilled.

[hidden cove]

no, i'm pretty sure you have the order wrong on this one.

[hidden cove]

yes, thanks to the 3 damage instead of 10

[brisk dome]

looping is no longer op, it's easy for your opponent to break it

[meager ledge]

ok well attack the issue from the source right?

[hidden cove]

well this is also why b2b surge is added in place of b2b chain

[meager ledge]

again, 1 line doesnt mean much

[brisk dome]

perfect clears were always special, no matter what effects or sounds accompanied them. that's why sounds and effects were added, because they were already special. color clears aren't that special intrinsically, hence why effects and sounds arent as important to add. they just aren't as exciting intrinsically.

[brisk dome]

you can find similar screenshots of people complaining about many, many other ways they lost

[hidden cove]

this was literally an hour ago

[lusty swan]

Would like to add on color clears aren't as special because they're easier than perfect clears

[meager ledge]

i wanna add that in nestris, pcs and t spins are not rewarded, and we still pog at them

[brisk dome]

if you lose to sdpc dpc with season 2 rules, that is, more than ever, a pure skill issue

[hidden cove]

well yes, SDPC/DPC was a problem in s1 which is why the opener all-clear nerf happened in the first place

[brisk dome]

exactly my point. they are intrinsically exciting

[meager ledge]

i wouldnt go that far, its still cheap memorization

[brisk dome]

exactly, so why did you post that screenshot

what are you even arguing against

[hidden cove]

...the screenshot is about the s1 experience

why does this need to be spelled out

[brisk dome]

yeah, but it doesn't pay off anymore

it's power is far too low now to say that "it's too OP i die no matter what"

no, you need to get better at the game

[hidden cove]

SDPC is as powerful as it should be for something so easily quickly repeatable. about 17 damage instead of 40.

[lusty swan]

well it's not a super kill spike but it does send you to the upper half of your board if it's not purposefully cancelled

[meager ledge]

memorization is speed, so it can still pay off

[foggy sigil]

by the new rules it just becomes from "impossible to win against" to "impossible to lose against"

[hidden cove]

i won't miss SDPC.

[brisk dome]

because you said it was an hour ago, which i assumed to mean it was about s2

[hidden cove]

good

SDPC was the worst part of the game

[foggy sigil]

but why

[hidden cove]

bless OSK for making the game so much better with S2

[foggy sigil]

its still a part of the game

[meager ledge]

i mean i dont mind sdpc not killing

[brisk dome]

yeah, but if you lose to a loop that Used To be Good but now is barely better than tki, you really, genuinely, honestly, sincerely, need to get better at The Game

[hidden cove]

thankfully it is no longer The Game

which it, was

at every single rank

in every single game

almost*

[hushed mesa]

I'm just going to say that dpc mains were stressful af to play against and I'm glad they're no longer a problem

[hidden cove]

^

[brisk dome]

i rarely see people complaining about losing to tki or 6-3 stacking, and right now, sdpc is pretty similar in garbage send to those.

[brisk dome]

i agree actually lol

[hidden cove]

the moment i see DPC placements i get my blood boiling

[brisk dome]

might wanna get that checked out ngl

[foggy sigil]

yeah i think same ngl but still it should do something ather than sen 3 lines and get broken by a single tspin

[hidden cove]

i'm so glad it is over

[hidden cove]

s2 fixed it

[brisk dome]

ye

[hushed mesa]

tbf sdpc is harder to get under now that you can't send cheese with a tsd because the tss can cancel double

[lusty swan]

I agree that dpc loopers were unfun to play against, but perhaps there isn't too much harm in PCs sending 4-6 lines

[hidden cove]

no

i liked baron's idea of 3 + (3 surge) tho

but if you give them 6 immediate damage they'll just getb ack to looping and ruining the game again for everyone

[lusty swan]

Plus surge could be good

[brisk dome]

anyways i think the general consensus is that pc's have been nerfed way too much, and they need to have some power (but doesn't have to be op)

[lusty swan]

4-6 doesn't mean 6 though

[hidden cove]

3 instead of 4+ is a buff mid-game to all clear because it is cheese not clean

[brisk dome]

im probably going to leave the thread soon because the various tangents zhun injects into the chat range from the eye-rollable to the infuriating

[hidden cove]

so i like the whole 3(+3 later) thing

[hidden cove]

me repeating baron's idea: "wow zhun said something annoying again"

[meager ledge]

i mean its just the same as any tspin-only opener right?

[hidden cove]

[brisk dome]

im not talking about now

im talking about when you claim that d ranks are going 300 apm

[meager ledge]

this is true actually, i did notice this

[hidden cove]

they actually still SDPC, it's just 1.2 pps

[brisk dome]

no they dont

they literally

do

not

[hidden cove]

can't verify it now that S1 is over, can we

tho objectively i think mech-TSD was more popular in B+ than SDPC was

[meager ledge]

3 surge is nothing though, i feel like its gotta be a little more to justify it in any way

[hidden cove]

perfect clears, thanks to DPC, are nowhere nearly as cool as this thread expects them to be

[lusty swan]

Yeah the cancellation goes both ways, which is something to consider about buffing PCs

[hidden cove]

it's like, "oh my god not this s-h--t- again"

[brisk dome]

they are for low ranks who, AGAIN, are the TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC of opener and pc nerfs

maybe not You

but for LOW RANKS

[dusk marsh]

maybe change them back after 60 seconds or smth if u really want maybe

[hidden cove]

which low rank is going to be like, "wow i hate how SDPC mains are not killing me anymore"

[meager ledge]

ok fair

[hidden cove]

and in B- rank, a PCO was a free win

but only 70% of the time

which is also silly

[brisk dome]

it absolutely was not

[meager ledge]

… no it wasnt

[lusty swan]

Time based stuff isn't good because it just becomes speed game

[meager ledge]

b ranks can tspin

hell, c ranks can

[brisk dome]

low ranks rarely run into sdpc mains, it really starts in ss

i came across ONE sdpc main in ALL MY TIME in d, c, b, a, and s rank

[meager ledge]

well no i feel like they def in the a ranks at least

[brisk dome]

yeah the only one i played against was an a rank

they aren't good enough to see all the solves though so it's quite a bit less dangerous

[lusty swan]

To be fair, how long ago was that? The sdpc meta didn't arise until 1-2 years ago

[meager ledge]

i mean were you in those ranks before sdpc was meta

[mellow frigate]

in my opinion pc should be consistent between opener and mid game it feels too janky otherwise

[meager ledge]

jinx

[foggy sigil]

i guess you are right people are just gonna do sdpc spin instead of sdpc

[brisk dome]

actually, that was more than a year ago so yeah, you might be right, people just didn't sdpc as frequently back then

[mellow frigate]

like you can't make opener pc send X amount and mid game pc send Y amount, it feels too strange and unintuitive

[brisk dome]

no but you don't understand, as soon as pc has 4 or more lines, BOOM BOOM EVERY single RANK is going 300 APM!!!!

[mellow frigate]

personally i'm fine with pcs being +3 lines. i would even be fine if pc was +0 lines

i feel like pcs are not necessary for the games meta to be healthy

[lusty swan]

I did have an idea for consecutive PCs doing less and less each time, as in if there was a PC within idk 14 pieces then the next one would do -2 or something, this nerfs opener PCs while keeping midgame pcs relatively rewarding

[brisk dome]

its not technically necessary, but low ranks expect something special from a pc, and that matters

very few people are going to stumble into clearing all the blocks of their board and not expect something to happen

[meager ledge]

we also brought up pcs only doing 10 if you tank garbage first

[brisk dome]

the games meta could be healthy without z pieces btw

[lusty swan]

How does that work? As in only for midgame PCs?

[brisk dome]

a concerto sounds fine without a single instrument

you can take away many things but each of them gave something, had something to show

[meager ledge]

well it suggests that only midgame pcs are gonna send a lot but yeah, changing the damage value is weird

pcs are flashy, and i want them to be rewarded at least a little more than a damn quad

[lusty swan]

The problem is that they're much more easily spammable in a short timeframe than a quad... It might be for the best that they are low reward

[meager ledge]

ig thats fair

[brisk dome]

opener loops, crazy as it sounds, had something to show for themselves- they had massive amounts of clean, risk, and reward, they made the opener phase incredibly volatile

overall, this may have been a con. but it's the job of the new S2 update to replace whatever good has been lost.

[mellow frigate]

1. i don't think the meta would be healthy without Z pieces, it would fundamentally change the way we set up t-spins
2. i agree that there can still be a beneficial place for unnecessary aspects in a game, but it becomes problematic when those aspects actively take away from enjoyment of the game, which i feel like pcs did for a lot of people. imagine the instrument played a dissonant sound that many people disliked, wouldn't it make sense to modify or remove it?

[meager ledge]

i didnt like the volatility very much

[brisk dome]

personally i am attached to the idea of a sustained reward from a pc, i dont know exactly how you'd do this

[brisk dome]

yeah most people didn't, because it felt dumb for whoever misdropped first to lose

[lusty swan]

idk about risk because against a dpc looper I had to fight tooth and nail just to have a fighting chance in the midgame, I rarely ever won off their clean

[brisk dome]

but the opposite is also bad, no one person having much risk of death for the opener phase

[lusty swan]

there is still risk

[brisk dome]

well risk meaning if they misdrop they get counterspiked and if you misdrop you die from pressure

[brisk dome]

yeah, but not much

[meager ledge]

i also dont like surviving sdpc and then being like “haha fk you and your nonexistent midgame” and then win, it gets tiring

[lusty swan]

I'd say that's really not that bad from all the games I've played against them

[lusty swan]

That is true

[brisk dome]

correct me if i'm wrong but most opener users have acceptable midgame, you might just be better and once you survive their opener you slowly win

like a true opener crutch is pretty rare

[meager ledge]

i mean i was exaggerating but i think i can gradually beat an sdpc main

[brisk dome]

oh lol yeah

[meager ledge]

its still not as fun

[lusty swan]

It's more that clearing the loop was a prerequisite to fight them in midgame where I have a chance to win, so I'm already at a grave disadvantage due to completely getting shut out for any opening mistake while if they make one I get to actually 1v1 for the point, which is still losable

Pretty unfun to deal with imo

[spice robin]

whoever created this thread is right

[brisk dome]

that is a good way of putting it

[lusty swan]

I don't think anyone really enjoyed fighting opener mains

[spice robin]

I'd consider it being useless than nerf though

2 b2b really does nothing

[brisk dome]

the current system is just too slow imo..

and when someone gets a big b2b chain and you don't have one, it's really hard to fight back

[lusty swan]

If it feels that way consider #1269727999528538162 !

[brisk dome]

might just be that i haven't played enough

[lusty swan]

small plug

[hidden cove]

^

[brisk dome]

yeah i really like this suggestion

oh i said that stuff in here lol

i miss b2b scaling already lmao

[ebon ice]

@hidden cove how is midgame pc a buff

doesnt it only send 3 lines

who cant ds 3 lines

[spice robin]

midgame pc is not a buff

its the same as opener pc

idk why hes so insistent on that

like

that sends 3 too ??

[hidden cove]

that is exactly why it is a buff

[ebon ice]

for me whenever i midgame pc i won before

now they dont die

how is that a buff

also i just won a round against somebody who midgame pced me

they lost because their boardstate was dog afterwards

[hidden cove]

good

[ebon ice]

soi its worse

[hidden cove]

they had a completely clear board, you'd think they can make something out of that

[hidden cove]

just because they mid-game PC'd doesn't mean they are supposed to immediately win

[meager ledge]

ur celebrating that pcs are weaker but also explaining how they are stronger. pick a side

[hidden cove]

just because +3 is strong doesn't mean guaranteed win.

it is risk-free to send. so it is better.

but it is also not an immediate win.

[limpid fjord]

so is it better or is it worse

why is the logic going both ways and either way is not logical

[spice robin]

zhun try to be consistent

challenge

[meager ledge]

you talk about the guaranteed win from the ten line pc, and you talk about the counterspike you dont need to worry about for the three line pc. please, pick a side

[hidden cove]

both are true

[meager ledge]

well it’s not guaranteed to win

both cannot be true

[brisk dome]

here we go 🤣 goodbye im leaving the thread 🤣 🤣

[ebon ice]

so the problem is skill issue

thats this entire thread

[spice robin]

ngl i wish there was an option to block zhuns opinions

[hidden cove]

that is why people complain, they can't win without PC loops i guess

[spice robin]

bor how many

ppl pc looped

in u

[ebon ice]

nah im fine with opener pc being taken away

[spice robin]

against u

[ebon ice]

but midgame pc man

i loved it

the problem is nobody can come up with an inbetween

[spice robin]

Rather than 3 lines, I'd rather PC send 6 lines ngl

and cheesy

[ebon ice]

bc if you buff midgame pc people will fish for it

and then keep looping once they have it

there is no fix

ggs

thread closed

[spice robin]

gg

[hidden cove]

you don't wanna know

[spice robin]

,LOL

[meager ledge]

dude i swear i don’t see THAT many in your streams

[hidden cove]

they are still the worst part of the game that just stick with you forever

you might not see them as much because when there is no lag or they are below 4 pps then i TKI the TSS with TSD

and they get stuck

and then complain to me about how i made their opener game into cheese race

but it sucks when i misdrop the TKI and they get a free win with something so easily repeatable

worst in tiebreaker

[meager ledge]

genuine question, do you like cheesy games

cuz that would explain why you like the three lines

[hidden cove]

yes

[meager ledge]

ok that helps

cuz i think most players think cheese is slow and painful (myself included)

wait so what do you think of b2b chaining then?????

also stickbase openers intentionally use cheese to make it stronger

[limpid fjord]

here is a point of reference: they complain about dying to a tsd + quad

[meager ledge]

by your logic of cheese being the buff of pc, sdpc is actually cheesier and therefore more of an abusable opener

[gritty mango]

derailment of a thread should be bannable

please keep on topic, no matter how hard it is to continue. we have 5 other channels to chat in

[tall carbon]

In my imo we should let the meta play out for a bit considering the new TL ruleset has existed for 2 days

[spring grove]

to throw my 5 cents in, I believe that nerfing all clear is the right direction into making games less dependent on who can execute an opener/pattern faster.

There are of course still openers that don't rely on all clear and can easily defeat you as well, but again, this already makes games a lot more interesting without completely taking All clears out of the equation.

This and nerfing combos (which happened a long while ago) is turning the game more intuitive and tactical instead of monkey brain do opener 8 pps uga buga

[keen hinge]

sdpc first bag now cancels tki first bag though

you remind me of this video
https://youtu.be/UixIn83h7m0

"we cut your legs off but your crawling speed is now 2x faster, BUFFED"

[humble granite]

okay and?

how is that anything related to buffing midgame pcs

[keen hinge]

in right hands i think you can not break the loop

[keen hinge]

i just feel like if you buff midgame pc's you need to do this in a way that doesnt impact opener ones too

however even rn opener pc's are still too weak imo

[humble granite]

Too weak compared to what?

[keen hinge]

what they used to be

[humble granite]

which was the point

[keen hinge]

yeah

but they were nerfed too hard

[hidden cove]

no

it is perfect now

[keen hinge]

also no cs from pc

[hidden cove]

cs?

[keen hinge]

which was the most fun when dealing with pcs

[keen hinge]

counterspike

[hidden cove]

ah, yes

this is why it's a buff

[keen hinge]

i think like 5 line 1 cheese on top 4 clean for pc will make it really interesting

no easy counterspike but if your spins are good enough you still get one

[hidden cove]

reminder that most pc's are still either loop or rng

[keen hinge]

and?

[hidden cove]

so sending 4 clean just so you can get counterspiked is a bit odd

no reason to take it

3 is better

[keen hinge]

it literally sent 10 before

[hidden cove]

indeed

and counterspike got you killed quite often

[keen hinge]

with a way easier counterspike

[hidden cove]

the problem was always 2 PCs or for example "c-spin + PC" being crazy strong

[keen hinge]

did you ignore the 1 cheese on top

you dont want to break b2b

[hidden cove]

i mean, tss

[keen hinge]

so you have to maneuver around it

also the cs wont be as crazy as previously

[humble granite]

Here's SDPC DPC while keeping b2b

here's tsd spam up to similar number of pieces

looks pretty balanced to me, pulling a PC gives you b2b advantage

while the intended goal of nerfing the kiilling potential

b2b counter probably higher if i can do 1st 2nd pc dpc while keeping b2b

[keen hinge]

isnt that rng though

even with all spin

[humble granite]

has pc setups been crafted yet

to include all-spins?

[keen hinge]

okay fair

[humble granite]

also sdpc alt o -> dpc is pretty much higher chance of keeping b2b

i've done 2 dpc loops before while keeping b2b in TL multiple times

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[keen hinge]

i know nothing about pc's sooo

my blitz pb is no pc lmao

[humble granite]

I dont really get the issue tbh. PCs dont KO anymore . . . that's the entire point

goign for them puts you ahead in b2b/surge

which is probably the point

[keen hinge]

i just like playing against pcs

barely surving a loop and then counterspiking feels so good

[hidden cove]

misdropping against a loop on a tiebreaker feels so bad

[keen hinge]

and even if you do die to one im left with a feeling "yeah thats fair should have stacked cleaner/been faster"

[keen hinge]

misdropping on a tiebreaker always feels bad

no matter what are you against

if you have like a truly terrible md the guy can like already send 10+ garbage to you with back to back while youre fixing it

[meager ledge]

... not really

[keen hinge]

(assuming they had an upstack in the midgame or if its the opener)

[humble granite]

now everybody survives the loop at medium board instead of at the top i dont see how that's a big deal

im still getting pushed to the upper parts of the board when people tank my tsds 2 times then counter spike

nothing really different from season 1

[keen hinge]

thats the thing

everybody survives

[humble granite]

Yeah that's the entire point.

[keen hinge]

idk i just feel like it takes skill out of the equation too much

[humble granite]

how so? if you mess up during opener, you're still getting KOed

opener burst pps is still very relevant

[hidden cove]

against a loop it's so much worse

[keen hinge]

by the time someone can pull a sdpc dpc loop or pco 2nd pc dpc you better have skills to counterspike properly

[keen hinge]

ends your tb suffering faster

[keen hinge]

thats not only limited to pcs

every opener does that

[humble granite]

yeah and now openers cant really KO unless you make some fatal mistakes

which is the entire point, win more via midgame

openers are for starting the match

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[keen hinge]

thats always been like that

if you die to an opener thats a skill issue

i do that a lot

and i know its my personal problem

this is why openers dont really matter as much at top levels

wheres the clip of westl looping 5 pps pcs for 20 seconds or so and then still losing the round

[humble granite]

APM doesnt lie you know that's not true

pc loop apm is now closer to tsd spam and both got nerfed via b2b levels being gone

There's now more leeway in surviving

surge/b2b advantage matters alot more now

to finish them off later

and also tanking/canceling to break their b2b before it gets too big

so the opener focus changes a bit

[keen hinge]

okay fair

i agree

there is more leeway now

but i personally liked it when there wasnt as much

[humble granite]

So basically I dont see the reason why PCs should be buffed, especially during openers. I just want midgame pcs to be more special as it was

[keen hinge]

i get it, easier for beginner players

[humble granite]

And the benefits of being better at opener than your opponent is still there

Wont be surprised if someone figures out a consistent 1st 2nd pc dpc loop with all-spin in a few weeks that also low kpp and transitions to a good board state and becomes meta to do because you get more b2b for same pieces than tsd spam

[hidden cove]

the problem was that people hyperfocused on learning the exact placements for the first 21 pieces to effectively get a guaranteed win every time on an early O (and mech for early T)

[strong night]

nah these all clear nerfs are not peak

midgame pcs are crap

[keen hinge]

not a problem for me

[strong night]

there is genuinely no reason to pc

[keen hinge]

if i queue a random ss opener main thats free tr

[strong night]

:/

[hushed mesa]

pcs send cheese

[round hedge]

ew

[hushed mesa]

pco could be good against td openers

[round hedge]

can we go back to 10 lines

[hushed mesa]

nothing to plonk

[keen hinge]

real

[round hedge]

i dont want 3 line pc anymore

[keen hinge]

get counterspikes or die tryin'

[round hedge]

i dont get my adrenaline rush when im not being sent 4 lines a second

[strong night]

its not

pcs are genuinely

worthless

[keen hinge]

so true

[strong night]

pco > dpc is sub .5 app

its worse than just stacking quads its hilarious

[turbid lake]

all I am going to say here is 5 lines
leaves

[keen hinge]

4 clean 1 cheese on top

i think that'll be fun

[round hedge]

20 lines but you can cancel 4x as good

trust

[keen hinge]

with the all spins

[strong night]

just make qp 3 and tl 6

lol

or something like that

[keen hinge]

revert to s1 but quickplay garbage

[storm topaz]

i dont think we need to buff the damage

but if all clears get back to back bonus, then that'd be cool

[hidden cove]

@brisk dome apparently a color clear definitely feels special if it's a duo revive condition

[storm topaz]

wtf is a color clear

[hidden cove]

when you clear all colored blocks (regardless of if you have garbage)

[storm topaz]

oh

how much garbage

[strong night]

they already do right now

[hidden cove]

sorry it was a very long time ago but i didn't realize coop mode has "color clear" indicator like that (and it was relevant to that discussion then)

[strong night]

its 3 garbage +2 b2b

[storm topaz]

so same as all clear

[round hedge]

color clears dont have nothing tho

[hidden cove]

color clear only matters if it's a duo quick play revive condition

[round hedge]

they just look coolish but not really

[storm topaz]

oh

[hidden cove]

but yea, all clear does get a b2b +2 bonus right now

[brisk dome]

ok, cool, so does holding 12 times in a row

[strong night]

which doesnt do anything because you have to skim anyway for them h

[brisk dome]

dont make me come back here, im too tired for this

yeah

bye

[storm topaz]

wait

if you have like

3 btb

[strong night]

yeah?

[storm topaz]

how much garbage does ac send

[strong night]

4

[storm topaz]

can someone explain to me

is it like b2b chaining

[strong night]

pc is now considered a b2b clear

like tssd

[storm topaz]

so

how much bonus does it recieve

[strong night]

+1 garbage if u already have b2b

thats it

[storm topaz]

mm

but you can maintain b2b with it?

[strong night]

rng

[storm topaz]

dont u have to break b2b to even pc?

[strong night]

if u dont tetris pc or all spin yes

[storm topaz]

then just tetris pc

3+4+1 lines

thats still pretty good

and 3 b2b

[strong night]

consider the following

it takes 10 pieces to pc

that .8 app for a perfect rng situation

[round hedge]

Or you could like upstack slightly more for tspin quad

[storm topaz]

so its rng

[strong night]

its completely rng

[storm topaz]

so just

dont pc?

like

[strong night]

yes

[round hedge]

Yeah

[strong night]

dont pc

its bad

like

[storm topaz]

why are so many people complaining

[strong night]

mega bad

[storm topaz]

just tsd-quad

it sends more

[round hedge]

Because it’s too bad

Pcs are fun

[strong night]

because whats the point of even having pcs in the game

[storm topaz]

opener mains when no sdpc

[hidden cove]

i mean it's not bad but it's not really optimal

[hidden cove]

yup

[round hedge]

Opener mains when stickspin

[storm topaz]

ig its time to learn sdpc-spin extended

[round hedge]

Omg wait I got buffed for season 2

[hidden cove]

it's quite easy if your 3rd bag is correct

[storm topaz]

its rlly easy lol

im alr learning it

[round hedge]

I’ve never used extended sdpc for its intended purpose lol

[strong night]

extended is funny for memes

[round hedge]

I’ve used it to extend 5 times, build b2b, and stickspin

[storm topaz]

extended sdpcspin is the best opener

[round hedge]

Never to sdpcspin

[hidden cove]

i've been watching some lower rank TL streams and the S2 changes made the game so much more fun

i've been playing S2 and the game is now more fun for me too

[storm topaz]

(i define best as whatever gets a 6yo to make the wojak face)

[hidden cove]

pretty exciting how good the PC opener nerf has changed things up a bit

[meager ledge]

im kinda exhausted with this topic so ill just say one last thing and go

if the pc attack is to not change throughout the round, it should deal no less than 3, no more than 6

[round hedge]

I think that’s normal sdpc

[storm topaz]

is ms2 still fine

[hidden cove]

the c-spin and counterspike potential is still strong

[storm topaz]

c-spin???

[hidden cove]

you just don't get an extra +10 "possibly a kill spike" extra damage for a PC collapse

[storm topaz]

i have trauma from s-spin

c-spin

[hidden cove]

MS2 is c-spin

[storm topaz]

so is stickspin still strong

cuz its counterspike

[strong night]

all openers that did not rely on pc for garbage are still fine

[storm topaz]

but theres the opener nerf

cancel double the garbage?

[strong night]

yes

[hidden cove]

openers are more guardable i nthe first 14 pieces if you build for cancel

i saw a full SDPC get guarded by a single t-spin double (and the other half was easily tankable) it was great to watch

[storm topaz]

so learn sdpc spin extended

[hidden cove]

it is definitely a viable option

[storm topaz]

no ones gonna guard 2 tss lol

[broken brook]

huh so people are honing in on a flat value

gimme a sec i got an idea

(note that you can vote a range, if you're unsure but know it's around 8-10 for example, you can vote 8, 9, and 10)

[lusty carbon]

has anyone argued before that buffing pc to more lines also buffs the opponent for more counters pike oppurtunities

it rewards midgame also.

make pc sends line whatever you want (below 10 and above 3 imo) and itd still be balanced but you're throwing away the chaoticness and skill needed to pc

[lusty swan]

the problem is that at a certain point it stops being useful for the opponent and instead just becomes a wall of 2+ boards worth of garbage within 10 seconds

[lusty carbon]

the players are already adapted to random spikes so why not

I know this update prevents that but it's too much lol

hence why I said it's less chaotic and fun

[lusty swan]

because it's too rewarding for the player using it while also have very little counterplay and risk, if the opponent misdrops they're dead, if the looper misdrops they both duke it out in midgame

then repeat the next round

[lusty carbon]

hmm maybe not 10 lines but Definitely not 3

[candid latch]

I have completely not read the previous 1k chats so this opinion may already be there, but what about rewarding PCs differently for which number of bag they are PCing at - if osk's intention is to make players avoid early PC loops and rather encourage midgame PCs.
For example, when you PC at nth bag, you send something like n+2 lines for n<5 (this formula probably needs some adjusts) and 7 or something lines for midgame pc

[lusty carbon]

also no way you voted less than 3 for pc 😭

[lusty swan]

Others have already mentioned that it's unintuitive and strange if PCs are different at different points in the game, it's probably best if they don't change throughout a game

[lusty carbon]

I won't advocate too much on it though since I barely use pc anyways

[lusty swan]

It said vote for a range

<3-5 was my range

[visual dove]

so what pc can send 1 and yall would be happy?

[lusty carbon]

omg that is not even pc lol that's just a dubble

[visual dove]

Realistically no one is going to support that

[candid latch]

honestly why would anyone make weird pc setups and try to achieve them for 3~4 lines when TSD is way easier to make and is more rewarded

[lusty swan]

as long as it's not oppressive to play against I'm happy

[visual dove]

So pc sending 1 or 2?

[lusty swan]

I think it's a necessary evil because any more than that and it starts to get too strong

[visual dove]

Not oppressive right

[lusty swan]

Yeah

[visual dove]

so why would you pc ever again?

when you can send a double

[hidden cove]

i mean anything is good that is lower than 4

i'm not married to PCs i can see them get 0 damage too

[lusty swan]

I don't really use PCs

[lusty carbon]

pc is a mechanic

[hidden cove]

it is now

just like color clear

which is not

(except in duo revive conditions)

[lusty swan]

I'm not saying "omg PC has to send 0 lines" but anything 5 or less imo is ideal

[visual dove]

would you support pc sending 1 line?

[hidden cove]

i'm even willing to support 0 line, so yea

[lusty carbon]

bro would you rather get pc spammed or lst spammed

[visual dove]

interesting

[hidden cove]

i think it should not be more than 3

[lusty carbon]

and pc sends less than 3

[hidden cove]

unless it adds directly to surge instead of send directly

[lusty swan]

what are you guys arguing about

I didn't really see your points

[hidden cove]

if it is viable to support the idea of PC sending 1, to which i said "yea sure why not"

b2b sends +1, too

[visual dove]

theres nothing to argue about if you think pc should send 0

like its just conversation ending

[lusty swan]

[lusty carbon]

true

[lusty swan]

It's not that drastic

[lusty carbon]

I refuse people like those exists

[lusty swan]

I'm fine with PCs even sending 5

[lusty carbon]

to people who don't use pcs yeah but I can atleast see what's on the other side lol

yeah 5 is good

I would rather get pc spammed that sends 6 lines more than 3 lines

[lusty swan]

10 or less even, I was dealing with it in s1 so I still can and any nerf is appreciated, but around 5 is where I'd say it's balanced

[broken brook]

according to the poll currently it's a tie between 3, 5, and 6
weirdly enough 4 is the outlier garnering way less votes

[lusty carbon]

this argument should literally work on everyone but for some reason not everyone sees it

[broken brook]

1 person voted more than 10 lol why not

[lusty swan]

I literally cannot tell what that sentence is arguing for

[lusty carbon]

that I want more clean garbage?

more lines isn't necessarily bad

[lusty swan]

kinda is, less lines isn't necessarily bad either if you're using that as an argument

[lusty carbon]

yeah it's just preference tho and it's a good middle ground that it should be higher

than 3

[hidden cove]

it is 3 so that it is not clean

if SDPC/DPC wasn't so broken, i could support 3+2 for example

[lusty carbon]

im fine with that either way, just... less fun

[hidden cove]

but i am happy with a change that makes games stop being sdpc/dpc

[lusty swan]

I can agree with that, 5/6 is pretty good as an upper limit imo because that's when a dpc loop sends a full board

[lusty carbon]

Inb4 osk changes something on s3 and no one knows how to survive apm

[humble granite]

Where's the keep pc as it is and buff midgame pc option.

[unreal belfry]

Nope, it's good

[quick prism]

6 or 7 seems to be the consensus

[ruby flax]

Lol @carmine sand the formatting failed

[carmine sand]

[ruby flax]

But yeah, the all clear nerf isn’t the biggest issue

[carmine sand]

strangely enough newlines work in the summary text but not in the main poll

[ruby flax]

The PC nerf is annoying as the game randomly framedrops now

Ohhhh you meant AC nerf didn’t you?

Yeah no ACs are fine

[lofty dragon]

who tf uses AC instead of PC 😭

[lofty dragon]

also you think pcs should be at 3 garbage??

[broken brook]

the game apparently

text goes all spinny flashing orange and white as it shouts "ALL CLEAR" during your 3 lines sent to the opponent

[carmine sand]

omg no other game would do this

no other game

[ruby flax]

I believe the Puyo Puyo Tetris games likely use “Perfect Clear” to avoid confusion with Puyo Puyo’s All Clear mechanic

[carmine sand]

i imagine the more modern games use it because, to some people, the tetris line clear is already "the perfect clear"

[ruby flax]

Tetris Party (Deluxe) uses “All Clear” too

[broken brook]

damn, PPAC almost PPAP

[young elk]

i have almost not felt the 14 piece thing

the only time i have was when using hachi vs tki lmao

[lofty dragon]

this also applies to sdpc spin btw

(also as hachi tank the first tsd it will help you more than canceling half of it)

[broken brook]

oh my goodness i have felt it, i thought i didn't
pco vs pco, normally the same solve would cancel each other but it left me confused once my opponent cleared later and sent me like 2 lines

[hidden cove]

the worst change is that new replays don't always work

[ebon ice]

Weren’t u complaining that pc was too op 😭 why u acting like u can just counterspike it now

[hidden cove]

PC was OP as opener, and often a mistake midgame; so making it 3 makes it a survivable opener while making it 3 makes it a safe attack midgame

[dusk marsh]

3 is maybe not safe midgame

[hidden cove]

wdym

it is always non-clean

[ebon ice]

Pc is op yes

Then why u say u die by counterspike

[hidden cove]

because all you have to do is be lower than row 6 in order to make PC as a mid-game attack actually terrible unless you start looping from thereon

mid-game PC nerf reduces chance of people looping midgame too

[dusk marsh]

cause u got no board so there’s no defense maybe

[hidden cove]

defense to what? 3 damage

[ebon ice]

Zhun how many midgame pcs have u encountered

[hidden cove]

not that many, but it was annoying when i sent one and it just killed me

sending 3 damage instead of 4+ makes that super nicely smoothed out

[ebon ice]

So if u truly believed that midgame pcs were bad why would you take them

[hidden cove]

it seemed cool

and then it was a bad idea

i've taken trinities at row 16 and they sometimes didn't work out either

not all decisions are the best

[ebon ice]

Trinities at row 16 don’t work unless your fast at stacking

Ur well is blocked for at least two bags

[hidden cove]

exactly

[ebon ice]

But I mean

U would have learned once

[hidden cove]

you can boomerang 2nd tsd

[ebon ice]

And then didn’t do it again

[hidden cove]

haha

no, i did it again

[ebon ice]

[hidden cove]

i just try to boomerang 2nd or just spin in L/J 3rd

[ebon ice]

Imo midgame pcs don’t happen that much

[hidden cove]

mid-game PC was only worth if you could get 2nd PC after

start spamming it

[ebon ice]

And when they do it’s just like a spike

[hidden cove]

i mean there were games when i won with 4 PC at the start

[ebon ice]

We just continue with midgame

[ebon ice]

Wth

[hidden cove]

i still wouldn't bring it back

it's broken

[gritty mango]

why not just nerf second pc and up

[hidden cove]

i got 2 2L PCs in 4 bags or somethin

[ebon ice]

Yeah that’s gatta be cap

Crazy rng

[hidden cove]

why not just keep it at 3 damage instead

[gritty mango]

cause 3 damage is fucking stupid

[hidden cove]

it did happen but you can't play S1 replays anymore

[ebon ice]

Maybe

[gritty mango]

an all clear is much harder to set up than a tsd

or a quad

[ebon ice]

I just wanna get my nice midgame pcs back

[gritty mango]

so why would it be worse

[hidden cove]

should be in this one

[gritty mango]

at sending damage

[dusk marsh]

Maybe should’ve made pc send 6

So it op

Maybe

Or 7

[ebon ice]

This could be fixed with 7+x bag

[dusk marsh]

[gritty mango]

this could be fixed by blowing up tetrio servers forever

🤯

[ebon ice]

Ayo

[gritty mango]

derailment part 1904830

[hidden cove]

evidently you didn't complain about 7+X being brought up 5 messages above, so you're quite biased with that aren't you

[ebon ice]

U said 2 2L pieces

With 4 pc

The way I interpreted it

U pc then 2L pc then 2L pc

[gritty mango]

im not talking to only you

[ebon ice]

That pc u show i know of

Also u did say 4 PC

[gritty mango]

4 pc

[hidden cove]

evidently and unfortunately people can easily set up PCs with 4.5 pps, so they are not as hard as the people originally thought it was

[gritty mango]

and evidently people in that skill range can survive pcs at 4.5 pps?

[hidden cove]

if you've ever been U rank, then not necessarily

[gritty mango]

ive been through u rank

for a year

and then x rank for another 2 years

[hidden cove]

honestly it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't like, 4.5 pps PC bs => 1.7 pps nothing

[gritty mango]

i think i should know about pc spamming by now

but

idk why you complain about certain strategies so much bruh

it is their game as much as it is yours

[hidden cove]

the game devolving into "can you get exactly 1 garbage on opponent board"

[gritty mango]

lol?? but its not

[hidden cove]

well it is evidently "more their game" because the whole idea is that they win in 6 seconds before you can place a single piece

[gritty mango]

you just have to send a counterspike greater than 10 garbage

which is not hard when you already have 10 clean on your board

[hidden cove]

when the original PC is followed with PC DPC then it gets consumed

[gritty mango]

like at that point its pretty skill issue

[hidden cove]

complaining about S2 rules is also skill issue

[gritty mango]

arent you the one complaining about s2 rules?

[hidden cove]

no

i'm saying S2 rules are amazing

[gritty mango]

ok so why are you telling me this

[hidden cove]

everyone else is yelling at me about it

"why do you like the rules now"

and it's because it's fun

[gritty mango]

im just saying that the way you approach this game is biased

[hidden cove]

the broken strategies are less broken

[gritty mango]

if you want to complain about these things then just like

make your own game

[hidden cove]

when are you saying this to everyone in this thread complaining about the PC nerf

[gritty mango]

whats all this about "pc should send 3 garbage"

[hidden cove]

it already sends 3 damage right now

[gritty mango]

like damn let other people have their own opinions as well

[hidden cove]

you're telling me this when i'm the one who is constantly being told to shut up

[gritty mango]

genuinely idk why you keep pushing these things over and over

[hidden cove]

so it doesn't seem like a major echo chamber where everyone claims "new pc is unplayable, i can't win in 7s econds" or something

[gritty mango]

and then you get all defensive when someone points out a glaring flaw in your logic

[dusk marsh]

wdym win in 7 seconds I literally use tki and pco maybe

[severe remnant]

IMO pc should send 6 lines. This way, it has less kill potential while also presenting counterspike opportunities. 3 lines only makes pc spam garbage cheesy, which in my opinion makes the game less interesting.

[dusk marsh]

6 line u can cheese after because of the 2 extra lines maybe

[royal ledge]

I agree that pc nerf is too heavy. There's 0 incentive to take any form of pc

[hidden cove]

(then don't)

[bold smelt]

How about PC sends 0 but +7 b2b charges

Would be funnier

[hidden cove]

^ that'd be nice

i was thinking of 3dmg immediate and making your surge damage be 3 if dmg is less than 3, (or +2)

but like, with SDPC/DPC having been as strong as it is, not sure if any such buff would favor gameplay

[gritty mango]

lowkey would be nice if clean

[hidden cove]

surge is split into 3, so it's clean if you send at least 12 spike

[gritty mango]

pc spam could probably bypass breaking the b2b with all spin though

could be a good idea though

[lofty dragon]

all I'm going to say is that hamburger stacking sends more than pc spam

[royal ledge]

a two combo triple sends the same amount lmfao

[hidden cove]

it is meant to discourage spamming all clears as an attack, i guess

[lofty dragon]

yea I love when games make already mediocre playstyle completely unusable and forces you to use one specific strategy

[hidden cove]

already mediocre? it was winning most games because of its generally unstoppable nature

[sleek meteor]

if i have b2b rn and send 10 tss', does this mean im sending 10 pcs

[lofty dragon]

tki or dubble:

"unstoppable strategy" vs 1 line of garbage:

[hidden cove]

obviously in S+ you are not encountering SDPC with 4.5 pps

into 1.9 pps of nothing

so you think dubble still works

reliably

even through lag and garbage travel speed

hint: it doesn't

[royal ledge]

I feel like U rank should be able to counter opener

[hidden cove]

well i could do it most times

it was still an annoying thing

[royal ledge]

then what was the problem

[hidden cove]

that the counter was not reliable

while the loop was

all it takes is early O

and then they win most of their games

[royal ledge]

but you could counter it most of the time right

[hidden cove]

well i was 24.4k

it just wasn't particularly fun to play against

and it was broken in general at lower ranks

[lofty dragon]

also can you not like tki at least at 3 pps???

like come on