7+X-Bag in TL

[grand topaz]

discussion on whether guideline games are actually still popular i think

[winged tartan]

renaming the thread to "PPT2 hateclub"

[earnest socket]

[spiral vessel]

[golden drum]

[grand topaz]

[lament elm]

[quick sapphire]

Well I can see there is no point in me being in this thread anymore.

[lament elm]

same

[severe spindle]

same

[grand topaz]

well, is there really more that can be said? it's been over 14k messages

[torpid acorn]

well that's clearly an indicator that there is quite a bit of passion regarding this issue 🙂

[spiral vessel]

osk will never add this because osk is a good dev

[tough light]

didnt osk start 7+X bag things

[grand topaz]

if 7+X was added, people would stop asking "what opener do you use" after saying hi

[winged tartan]

wat lol who asks that

(aside from you apparently )

[spiral vessel]

[cinder vapor]

I sometimes get asked that though only because Sailboat isn't a common opener lol

It's fun to use though

[grand topaz]

i probably spend too much time on twitch

[grand topaz]

sailboat is X tier

i only ever see 24.8k+ guests use it

that TSS => TST is very pog

i'd love to see it midgame

[cinder vapor]

Sailboat is TSS->TSS->TST. Hachispin is TSS->TST though

[slender torrent]

hi

what opener you guys use

[queen barn]

gamu ❤️

[golden drum]

Usually ss, rake stacking v2 and reliable

[onyx tide]

what stacking?

[slender torrent]

rake

[onyx tide]

cant find it on the internet but ok

[rare sequoia]

this thread has completely derailed

[grand topaz]

extended-sdpc-spin and stickspin like a real pro

[golden drum]

Both ss and rake stacking v2 are openers I helped work on

[warm galleon]

7+X should be implemented permanently into TL because it is good and fun and turns openertris into tetris 🙂

[grand topaz]

^this

[open lion]

dt stick tki

[torpid acorn]

dont think iver ever seen anyone say that lol

[grand topaz]

hello, what opener do you use

[golden drum]

for added context:

[torpid acorn]

my personal favorite is the i have no idea what i'm doing opener

[wanton arrow]

Wolfmoon cannon

[grand topaz]

ngl if wolfmoon didn't exist, people wouldn't know impeldown

[wanton arrow]

100% haha

[torpid acorn]

You're speaking a language I don't understand lol

I will absolutely freestyle but for openers it's sdpc or shudder 4wc as a desperation move

[tidal magnet]

dt4w is personally my fav

gives 12 clean lines at the start and then a bunch of cheese right after

so they cant cancel the cheese if they play wrong

if they can tank the clean and then use it to remove the cheese then damn

[grand topaz]

7+X can't come back soon enough

[rare sequoia]

opener talk should really move to a different channel before osk locks this request or something

[grand topaz]

Opener talk is a good argument for 7+X

[rare sequoia]

Not in this context, people are just talking about their favorite openers or ones they've made

And before that it was guideline games and an emote chain

[torpid acorn]

It's all related.

Abd yeah, opener talk doesn't make a case for this awful bag system. Total RNG ala classic tetris would be better

If we're go8ng to make the beginning random why not go all the way?

Trying to shut down talk you don't like doesn't help the case

I maintain this issue could be addressed by nerfing PCs which the most popular openers rely on

Rather than trying to disable strategies entirely, balance them.

7x bag is akin to deleting overpowered champions in League instead of nerfing them

[primal gale]

as much as I loathe league, you're right

[open lion]

[hybrid depot]

uhhh i disagree

total mayhem is not better

[torpid acorn]

I mean I don't like it either but why stop at 5 chaotic bags

[spring minnow]

why have 5 chaotic bgs

[rare sequoia]

7 bag is good because you know what's coming and won't get droughted or flooded

[grand topaz]

i'll never understand why anyone tells me "LST is not an opener" and then i encounter this shit

[rare sequoia]

total rng would be a gimmicky mess and the game would be reduced to 9-0 simulator with occasional tspins

[hybrid depot]

lst is a pattern, it's not pure memorization

thats literally it

[rare sequoia]

And it's not that I'm trying to shut down talk I don't like, it just didn't seem to be very related to 7+x

• what changes has PPT 2 gone through
• 7+x is good because nobody will need to focus on openers so much to the point it's the first thing brought up in conversation
• no one asks that
• people ask to disprove and be funny
• this opener is cool because of the tspins
• I use these openers

[acoustic plover]

7+x bag seems a good idea to me : the game is interesting because you think about how you stack, not because you are able to pull out prememorized openers at a high speed.

[queen barn]

I am so sick of openers

uh

please excuse my following rant

[chilly robin]

i think it'll be valid thoughts

[grand topaz]

i'm sick of seeing people with 180 APM drop to 70

and from 120 to 40

just because they don't know what to do with the pieces beyond the 28th piece

unless they are LST main in which case it's 35 pieces

your turn to rant 👍

[chilly robin]

caveat: loopers and proper lst mains can continue indefinitely

[chilly robin]

can i just say i find this really funny

[queen barn]

I feel that kill openers -- like sdpc -- are detrimental to the health of the game. They make matches so much more stressful and frankly, less fun. Although there are strategies to counter specific openers, which I have taken my time to learn, openers still remain dominant at almost every level of play. And I just keep losing to them, because the sheer amount of pressure they put on you at the very start of every game is just... ridiculous, and frustratingly so. The fact that if I make any mistake in my first 20 or so pieces, I instantly die to a kill opener, is awful. Any misdrop that I make is lethal, which is usually not true for the average position in a given TL midgame; I can often dig myself out of these holes. And even with good play, I can still lose *despite * my best attempts to cancel and downstack. My 3 pps tki will still often fold to a 5 pps sdpc dpc loop (or faster -- this discrepancy between opener speed and midgame speed is only possible because every single piece placement is all memorized theory), because I simply am not fast enough to prevent the loop, and now I am completely dependent on good rng in the form of garbage wells. My best option at this point is... to adapt the exact same strategy and rely on very powerful openers at high speeds just to survive this. I'm no game dev, but when the best strategy to counter something is pretty much the exact same strategy as the thing you're trying to counter... it doesn't seem like a very healthy meta.

However, I don't think that 7+X bag -- although a step in the right direction -- is the best solution, although I would've liked more time to test its effects on TL. If osk is listening, please, try more stuff like this in the future, give these experiments their proper time in testing (and please give more of a warning ).

anyways, sorry for the wall of text

hopefully my points still make sense through all of my bias

[grand topaz]

i don't see why 7+X isn't the best solution. The effect is what we need: to effectively "erase opener APM" and force game to start with mid-game APM

[chilly robin]

I think if you have the skill to 5 pps loop, you deserve to win — this argument against speed advantages has been made time and time again, but undermines the skill needed to do this.

How many people do you know who can actually do kill openers at 5 pps consistently? If it were that easy, you'd see a lot more people doing it. This argument extends across all ranks, too. Speed advantages should always be rewarded because you are fundamentally displaying more skill than your opponent. A 1.5 pps stickspinner should indeed be rewarded against their 0.7 pps opponent.

Just because piece placements are the same every time does not mean you don’t have to read the full 7 piece queue, recognize solves, play 15 kps without misdropping, etc., all of which take skill and thus should be rewarded

Moreover, with most kill openers, one misdrop = death, so you could make the same argument of "if I'm sdpc dpc looping and make any mistake, I just die to the clean garbage counterspike my opponent inevitably returns and have to rely on rng garbage to survive"

[chilly robin]

A more fair comparison would be to consider equal pps kill opener vs non kill opener gameplay

[queen barn]

yeah but I believe 7+X has it's own problems

[chilly robin]

To me, the biggest problem is that it gets rid of non-kill openers too

[chilly robin]

is your goal to weaken kill/spike openers, or simply to erase all openers?

[chilly robin]

And even with good play, I can still lose despite my best attempts to cancel and downstack
is this not equally true for midgame too lol

also, openers tend to be dependent on rng too

setting aside the classic early o and optimal solve arguments, whether or not you succeed in an opener often depends on the entire queue

with a shitty but still buildable queue, your opener speed can drop 1 pps compared to a really clean, low hold + low das alternation queue

how is that not equally rng dependent as your survival?

[grand topaz]

you can still freestyle a shape or 6-3 fractal quad

[chilly robin]

that's not answering the question

I feel that a lot of the arguments made against opener maining are accidentally disingenuous because the people making them have no experience with the nuances of opener maining themselves

[chilly robin]

if you asked me, an opener main, to argue against kill openers my argument would be:

• the skill it takes to effectively learn opener maining is disproportionate to the skill it takes to effectively learn midgame, in that you can gain more tr through the former for comparatively less effort

[grand topaz]

I'm happy with 7+X because it forces people to learn how to make a c-spin without following a 28-step recipe that works 96% of the time

[chilly robin]

I agree that kill openers should be nerfed, but I disagree with the arguments yall are making

It is very clear that you disregard the skill it takes to actually use kill openers effectively

[grand topaz]

people who actually know how to play will be able to get the c-spin mid-game

[grand topaz]

personally i just don't think "the skill it takes to actually use kill openers" is what the game should be rewarding.. so 7+X is perfect

if you want to do a "kill opener" do it midgame

[chilly robin]

So you are comfortable erasing all openers because it is still theoretically possible to build clean tspin shapes

[grand topaz]

yes

[chilly robin]

Roundabout way to say that but sure, valid

[chilly robin]

You don't think 15 kps, recognizing pc solves at 5 pps, clean finesse, reading full 7p queue should be rewarded?

[chilly robin]

Further do you agree with this?

[grand topaz]

not at the start of the game, no

[chilly robin]

It is very weird to me that you don't think those skills should be rewarded

They are not easy to do

If you disagree, try it

[grand topaz]

i'm happy to reward those skills midgame

[chilly robin]

Why not at the start? what's the difference?

[grand topaz]

there is no enemy interaction if you win in 5 seconds

[chilly robin]

are you suggesting that any skillset that cleans out your opponent quickly should not be rewarded?

[grand topaz]

7-bag is too predictable

[chilly robin]

answer the question

[grand topaz]

i think blitz strats are broken

[chilly robin]

so if you were to 4 pps freestyle apm spam in 7+x [think promo] and plonk your opponent to death in 8 seconds, does that skillset not deserve to be rewarded?

beacuse there's no enemy interaction

[chilly robin]

is this because you lose to them too often and it feels unfair

[grand topaz]

i think freestyle is effectively what the game is, at some point the speed difference will always win

[grand topaz]

when they do 220 APM with sdpc but fall to 60 APM when they get garbage, but it depends on whether i can TKI with 3.2 pps? yes

[chilly robin]

I think speed advantage should always be rewarded

if you cannot counter that, that is not the game being unfair, that is you not having the requisite skills to survive

also with the exception of ms2, openers can't always be built, and opener mains will play midgame quite often

[grand topaz]

the common blitzmain argument

the 7+X argument is if you can't play with the first 35 pieces being slightly more random, do you even know how to play the game

[chilly robin]

which you fail to pick apart other than "there is no enemy interaction"

[grand topaz]

why is it rewarded that people memorize 28 piece placements fast

[chilly robin]

because it's not that easy lmfao

[chilly robin]

[1]

zhun have you ever tried any kill opener

ms2, sdpc, stick

[grand topaz]

well, i'm sure you can do it in 7+X if you really want

[chilly robin]

hachi

[chilly robin]

no you cannot

[grand topaz]

it just takes a bit more effort

[chilly robin]

you were the one who argued good openers can exist in 7+x yeah?

that has yet to be shown

16 million bag combinations, good luck finding coverage

even pco with alt forms found <50% coverage

[grand topaz]

well who said you need to be able to PC loop in 7+X

that's kinda the whole point

[chilly robin]

and yet no non pc loop openers have been found yet

so what's your argument

[chilly robin]

?

[chilly robin]

"slightly more random" is very disingenuous

5000 bag combinations to 16 million

[grand topaz]

well, make a cool shape then with what you got

[chilly robin]

for reference:

7! = 5040

(7 C 3) 10! / (2! 2! 2!) = 15876000

[chilly robin]

I'll take this as you not wanting to answer the argument, which is totally fair

[queen barn]

The problem I have here is the play patterns. I know that opener maining is a skill of it's own, but the fact that certain players have the capability to turn games into a coin toss of 'can you survive 200+apm pressure until you manage to break my loop' is just not entertaining. From the opener perspective, you are playing in almost an identical fashion for multiple games of every match, and you are often relying on certain rng in order to continue the loop. I would argue that this is not interesting gameplay, and rng-dependant gameplay is not desirable either. From the other side, you need to survive this pressure. You need to be able to access the wells, and if you happen to get a well that is not as easy to downstack into, then you might just be screwed. However, if your well spawns exactly where you need it, you might just win in an instant counterspike. Reducing games to this sort of luck is really not what I'm here for. At least when it comes to midgame there is much more nuance and opportunity for varied gameplay and strategies, and any victory is much more often due to better decision making throughout the midgame.

[chilly robin]

thank you for your contributions (seriously)

[grand topaz]

i think even in school, they don't give you exactly the same assignment in a test as they gave you as homework

[queen barn]

also sorry for replying so late, it's hard to gather my thoughts in a timely manner

[chilly robin]

you're fine

you are making much more consistent and logical arguments than zhun

[queen barn]

y'all tak so fast

[chilly robin]

I see your point and I suggest you consider how certain players can force your midgame to be just as restrictive as it is in the opener stage

strong inf ds players will force you to play inf ds

just as strong opener players will force you to play rng survival

when you consider that play patterns can be just as restrictive in terms of playstyle / "what you're here for", how does that change things?

does it only feel bad because opener is so much more fast paced?

[chilly robin]

I would argue that this is not interesting gameplay
to some extent personal preference is just objectively valid and not something that can be argued with

as such, I think this is a pretty strong point

it just so happens to be that many players prefer the exact opposite

and I think a lot of anti opener arguments ignore that

[rugged ether]

i like countering openers as a skill on its own (a lot of people might disagree) but i think it's fun

[chilly robin]

I really like countering strong opener players

[grand topaz]

well in U rank and above you counter, but that doesn't fix how it's effectively broken from S- and below, while in SS it's honestly just a struggle to look at

the worst argument for 7-bag i heard is "but only top-ranks know how to do proper mid-game, why expect lower ranks to know midgame"

[chilly robin]

ok this is a stupid argument LOL

[chilly robin]

also isn't this just a skill diff between > u and < u ?

players who have that skill rise up

players who don't have that skill stay hardstuck

[grand topaz]

indeed, but that means openers make the game obsolete for 95% of players

[chilly robin]

meh, tki is a really really low barrier

you forget that 2 pps tki fucks 2.5 sdpc 90% of the time

[queen barn]

I certainly admit to having a lot of bias
I do not like lottery-esque gameplay patterns
I prefer strategy based gameplay (I love chess) and I find it very satisfying to outmaneuver others in midgame
but I can see the appeal it might have for others

[rugged ether]

to me personally, openers helped me a lot in the low ranks to learn setups i wouldn't have learned otherwise

[chilly robin]

the effort to learn 2 pps tki <<<<<< the effort to learn 2.5 pps sdpc

[grand topaz]

blitz main is always a lottery

[chilly robin]

anyone who disagrees with this is literally bad at the game

I can fully state that

[chilly robin]

glad you do, this is wonderful

[chilly robin]

openers are a great way to learn tspin shapes

[chilly robin]

for both players ngl

[rugged ether]

i doubt i would've learned how to do floats or tst towers without openers haha

[chilly robin]

but I have seen people (not anyone here in chat) disagree, so...

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torpid acorn]

I don't think skill at executing prepared strategies is any more or less valid than improvisation skill

Funny enough music is the same way.

Some people are good at one, some thrvother

[rugged ether]

me when doing 4 pps lst in opener but also doing 4 pps lst randomly finding it in midgame

[torpid acorn]

Doing both is the hard part

[chilly robin]

as an opener main I can tell you that

• I know mirror, so sdpc build rate is 75%
• when I can build sdpc, I get the pc at most 90% of the time [this factors in me misdropping at any point]
• when I get the pc, there is at most a 75% chance that it (or the subsequent dpc) kills

so really, I only kill with pc looping at most half the time

this is just my personal experience, but maybe it helps put things into perspective

[grand topaz]

i think it's a good thing if tetrio also rewards improvisation from the start but rewards execution from 35+'th piece

currently it does not favor improvization at all due to 7-bag predictability

[chilly robin]

and yet non kill openers are still fully viable

players like kdbar can open with literal 9-0 every single round and maintain high u / x rank

because players like kdbar have great midgame and survival skills (what you call improv)

[chilly robin]

I think these stats are very very different for lower ranks (more like 60% build, 30-50% pc, 99% kill), but also isn't that just a fundamental skill diff between the ranks? lol

I will note that some ms2 mains will force you to play high apm survival literally every single round because ms2 has 100% build rate

but with every other opener, nah

[queen barn]

I really don't like playing against opener mains. It's one of the few things that can affect my mental.
As much as I will complain and gripe about openers maining in the higher ranks, it's just my opinion, and different players will have different perspectives.
The real problem is and always has been openers in lower ranks, where counterplay simply does not develop very quickly. Especially when these players might lack skills such as screenwatching and canceling. Playing fast is a skill of it's own, but when you match some B- who spent 15-30 minutes practicing stickspin against someone who mostly just uses 9-0, one of them is about to get nuked on every early O bag, and they're not gonna know what hit them.

I remember learning stickspin required very little time on my part, back in my early S- days. The effort to reward ratio is way too skewed at these skill levels

[chilly robin]

That is exactly the argument I would make

[chilly robin]

and tbf zhun made it too

[rugged ether]

My experience in low ranks:
-first time meeting stickspin and dying to it
-watching it in replay then learning it myself
-climbing with it then realizing that it's not a "free win" at a certain point
-forces me to learn how to play midgame because it's not a "free win"

[chilly robin]

but everything else argued was kinda ?? to me

[chilly robin]

!!

huge imbalance creates a slaughter in the lower ranks

[queen barn]

ngl this got lost in the thick of the discussion

I missed it

anyways

[grand topaz]

^

Incredibly commonly heard in lower ranks: "I don't want to fight opener mains, I just want to play the game"

Most likely from people who inf-ds by default

[queen barn]

The ideal solution to this opener debacle is one that is applied to all ranks equally, and serves to only prevent opener 'crutching' at lower ranks. As much as I detest playing against kill openers, the opener stage allows it's own kind of creativity. Opener theory is actually quite interesting (especially when you don't face the same thing in all of your games -- yes I am just really sick of sdpc). So a good solution could create a skill barrier that makes it difficult for inexperienced players to access the power of these kill openers -- pure memorization would have to be difficult and impractical, but at the same time allow players of higher skill levels to access these patterns in order to capitalize on opener theory. In this regard I think that the current implentation of 7+X is too restrictive. Getting 3 extra random pieces (from a 5th bag) and 2 extra pieces in the second bag makes opener skill almost impossible to apply, as there are simply too many possibilities for even dedicated opener theorists to map out. Maybe I underestimate them, but in this case, the barrier is set too high.

For what it's worth, I think that different changes to the bag system should be experimented with. I don't know if this is the best way, but it's worth trying. For example, I like the idea of mixing the first two bags to make one 14-bag at the start of each game; but I don't have the experience with this to claim that it is any better

These experimentations deserve considerable amounts of time in testing, because opener theory doesn't just develop completely in the span of two days

[grand topaz]

Another funny way to solve opener issue: always make bag start with TSZ before O

[queen barn]

sdpc and stick are not the only kill openers

[grand topaz]

they're the worst though

BT => c-spin will make a comeback probably

[queen barn]

I don't think that sdpc or stick should be impossible; that is not really the goal here.
But it's criminal that they have 75% build rate on first bag

The fact that a player can build sdpc in the majority of their games means that the raw power granted by the opener is so consistent and practical that there is little incentive to not just continually spam sdpc when possible

[chilly robin]

this will make everyone main ms2

it'll be just as bad

[grand topaz]

easier counter tho

[chilly robin]

maybe for you

[grand topaz]

it takes more bag for them to send damage

[chilly robin]

not really lol

if anything the cspin is more consistent than the pc

[grand topaz]

they typically get the c-spin but can't get the pc at which point it is counterable

[chilly robin]

ms2 isn't necessarily a pc opener

[grand topaz]

SDPC sends you TSS => TSD => PC and have a lot of skim combo blocks

so SDPC is much more annoying to play against

[chilly robin]

it's a counterspike opener

[grand topaz]

i mean, i'm not going to give you a free quad under your c-spin

but that's actually a compelling argument for me to learn it against LST mains

[rugged spear]

why are you so against lst

[grand topaz]

the order of annoying openers (my list obv) goes SDPC/DPC => LST => extended-sdpc => stickspin => BT Cspin => MS2

actually i think this list is wrong. maybe extended is more annoying than LST

[rugged spear]

they are annoying but arent gamebreaking, so imo they should not be removed 👍

[grand topaz]

depends on how you define game-breaking

i think they are effectively gamebreaking in every rank below 24.2k

[rugged spear]

so is scholar's mate against someone who has never played chess

or low elo for that matter

[queen barn]

imo lst is exactly where I think openers should be
hard to abuse for lower ranks but very rewarding at higher skill thresholds

[grand topaz]

i'd favor 6-3 over lst

altho it'd make the game more like te:c zb in that regard, everyone 6-3's who doesn't honeycup

[rigid zenith]

reduced garbage or reduced garbage cap:

[slender torrent]

I came here to say that opener maining is already nerfed

everytime you try to opener main a fricking freeze frames suddently happens making you miss

every single round

[grand topaz]

is that a v9 thing?

[slender torrent]

I dont think so

When v9 released it wasnt happening

Now the freeze is crazy, And I noticed it doesnt happens only to me

I won an entire match cuz my opponent did crazy DAS missdrops on opener

every round

Well I can still force 1pps for 5 seconds then go fast again to prevent the freeze messing up

but still, if its to wait I'd rather play with do-nothing plonk

and no, I don't use t+

[grand topaz]

is it browser or client

[slender torrent]

Downloaded version

I wonder if browser doesnt lag

I should try

[grand topaz]

for me, browser lags real bad lol

[slender torrent]

I mean

my issue isnt like

lagging

its more freeze spikes

[earnest socket]

I play on a chromebook and it's fine for me

[open lion]

I think I did it like once and it was fine

[hybrid depot]

i dont really see how you dislike 7+x but like 14

[hybrid depot]

all this does is make early tsz openers easier

it's too much of a band-aid solution and only causes other things to inflate in effectiveness

[open lion]

Remove pc for first 20 or more seconds

And if u get looped then uh just also loop

Cause lst and tki can do that

Or just time attacks

[grand topaz]

it's like stride mode in 40L but for TL

[hybrid depot]

yes but in 40l you dont care abt openers

and even if you do, you can just reset

tl is supposed to be about you managing any start bag

i think at least 1 cspin opener uses late o too

[grand topaz]

tl is supposed to be about you managing any start bag
good argument for 7+X

[open lion]

to me tho just maybe a bit awquard to start

with like two s peice and no opener like tki

[atomic gorge]

the obvious response for this is to just spam ms2

which is already quite broken as is

[open lion]

ms2 is the thing where u tank and then spike right?

[atomic gorge]

not necessarily, though a lot of people use it that way

it's a TD opener

[open lion]

oh

[hybrid depot]

i mean ur still contradicting yourself

[spring minnow]

other options for balancing ganepkay should probably be explored as there isn't a clear majority in the 7 plus x debate

[tired flame]

this is fine, I honestly would love longer responses like this that show effort and thought put into it.

[fallow copper]

dt cannon is an opener but it also requires stacking kinda

!

Also unrelated im surprise people are still debating

[tired flame]

So to be clear openers are memorized setups

LST is not an opener

However openers do end in same board states or can transition to one

LST is a stacking pattern. Flatop TKI is just a bag 1 opener that easily transitions to a 7-2 board

and it just happens that LST is easily done on 7-2 boards

LST is usable in other board states. I've completed 6-3 20tsds with mostly LST

and well lucky bag rng on to fix somethings

[hybrid depot]

the first 1.2 bags are memorization, and then dt is freestyle by nature

[quick sapphire]

Has this topic not been discussed to death yet?

[hybrid depot]

basically nothing has been agreed on

and uh…we’re still trying

[quick sapphire]

At this point if nothing has been agreed on then we should just agree to disagree.

I think the only thing stopping the mods at this point from closing the thread is the imminent creation of a duplicate one straight after.

[winged tartan]

yeah i wasn't really sure if i should just unpin it at this point lol

a little surprised osk even removed the slowmode

[quick sapphire]

You're not gonna get any more valuable information from it.

Everything that can be discussed, Has been discussed. From what I can see it's just rambling now.

[open lion]

Also because there’s no right answer to this maybe.

[onyx reef]

[open lion]

[grand topaz]

there'sa right answer: if you want to reduce the focus of openers in the game, then make the start less "stabilized", 7+X is perfect for this as it only affects the first 35 pieces

[spring minnow]

damn 💀

[loud hazel]

"there's a right answer" into blatanly pushing your own point of view with disregard to any other suggestions

what kind of opener is this

teach pls

[grand topaz]

it's much less finicky than initial garbage although i'd have fun with that too

[fallow copper]

Maybe he removed it bc he stopped reading them

[fossil charm]

i did? huh idr

[open lion]

but also pretty sure thats maybe also no decided

and if it is its maybe just by a bit

but bassically wat i say is i no like

[grand topaz]

it would fix TL for 95% of the ranks and it would make it less stressful for the rest

[open lion]

but not really decided or anything

idk i kinda like the stress

[grand topaz]

i've seen people start crying from it i dunno man

[open lion]

only thing that will maybe make me play faster

well if they lose multiple in a row then yeah

happens to anyone if they lose a lot

[grand topaz]

take a few deep breaths first just to be chill in case they're an extended-main so you don't rage/rage-quit

[open lion]

but the only thing i would agree on in like this entire convo is that the easiest way to counter an opener is another opener

pretty sure ussually openers are just like whos faster or whatever but it's not too hard to go to midgame if you send like a quad

or use tki

[winged tartan]

i could've sworn we weren't allowed to manage slowmode in threads, guess i was wrong there
but yeah it definitely wasn't me lol

[fossil charm]

mm i dont rmemeber changign it

[winged tartan]

[golden drum]

Real

[summer locust]

dt cannon

[brazen pawn]

Bt cannon

Yes the blitz one

[earnest socket]

nakavora

[onyx tide]

Bt cannon

suprising effective

[fallow copper]

Ms2

[grand topaz]

Can I use "turn bag into 7+X" opener

[rigid zenith]

i think this thread should be unpinned. it’s not really as active like before nor the conversations recently are too relevant regarding to 7+x

[grand topaz]

Well there was definitely no new info on whether it would happen or not, and it's been a month I think since the 7+X day

[hybrid depot]

i think if we want anything new to come out of this thread, we would need a longer testing period

or osk could do what he did with passthrough and blockout rules, with the in-game feedback

[mystic yoke]

alternate fixes
the PT testing was between reduced, zero, and consistent
7+x is literally the only attempt atm

[rigid zenith]

osk iirc said that not a lot of people answered the in-game feedback thing. probably around 90% of tl players

[grand topaz]

i didn't even know there was an in-game feedback thing

[quick sapphire]

There was an ingame feedback thing?????

[rare sequoia]

back when passthrough was being tested there were and after each game of TL which you could click to send feedback on the match

[hybrid depot]

i mean theres a bit...

• standard
• 7+x and other randomizers
• starting field of bits of garbage blocks

[winged tartan]

sure but the alternative is skins and that's definitely not happening anytime soon

[primal gale]

technically the alternative is not pinning anything

[torpid acorn]

Not so much "reduce" as "essentially eliminate"

My stance it and will remain that if anything, simply reduce the influence of openers by nerfing PCs

Adjusting this mostly just affects openers because midgame PCs are pretty rare and mostly by chance

And by doing this people still have to train their midgame but the wide range of builds/tactics that exist for game start aren't simply erased entirely

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure PCs are presently more powerful in T.IO vs other games with guideline bags

[rare sequoia]

Just nerfing PCs isn't enough to stop the problem of openers being easy wins in the lower ranks though

I do agree that it would be best to keep openers around if possible rather than removing them entirely though

[torpid acorn]

I don't see this as a problem. The effectiveness will drop off sooner and players will have to broaden their skill set to progress further

Just like any other competitive game

you have to keep learning new things

And the biggest advantrage of going this route is now your 1v1 mode isn't suddenly completely different from literally the entire rest of the game

Which will cause a lot of confusion for new people entering the TL Q

[rare sequoia]

a big argument of those for 7+x is that it makes the beginner experience very unfun because you get destroyed by openers

[torpid acorn]

I think taking away the power of PCs does enough to address that

[rare sequoia]

what about openers such as sdpcspin which don't utilize PCs?

[torpid acorn]

I don't know. I don't see that all that often

[rare sequoia]

even if you don't see them often, the meta will shift and they'll be more popular if this change is implemented

[torpid acorn]

I do know that every opener i've ever used aside from stacking 4wc involves PCs

and they are responsable for most of the sudden instant deletes i've ever experienced

and like I said, PCs outside of openers don't happen very often. So this is a tuning lever that doesn't really affect the rest of the game much.

[rare sequoia]

I agree, I'm just saying only nerfing PCs probably isn't enough to fix the main issue of kill openers

[torpid acorn]

I would essentially just prefer a solution that doesn't make TL suddenly an entirely different game mode

rather than just the place where people compete

[grand topaz]

nerfing PC's won't do anything against extended-SDPC which is one of the major contenders to being a problem

also mid-game PCs are still pog tbf

but somehow if anything is done as opener, it is "less cool" regardless if it works

[chilly robin]

this is uh

not at all a problem

imo

maybe im too low to see it
sure if i fidn the 1/10000 pc looper i'd lsoe but the real issue w/ opener gameplay is jsut people being too fast at sdpcspin/stickspin or even c-spin for me to be able to reasonable prepare a defense

[grand topaz]

PC nerf would only 'fix' SDPC/DPC but would do nothing with the other kill-spike openers being a bit too reliable

at lower rank just stickspin is already a menace

[grand topaz]

maybe 6-3 meta wouldn't be too bad after all. It honestly kinda already is once you're past the openers

[open lion]

i just think make 2 que s for tl like 7 x and normal and if the playerbase isn't split like at least 30 percent then that just means that people dont like 7 x

[torpid acorn]

id be really concerned about wait times, but if "Character Mode" is to have match making I suppose it could be a good test for something like that

I just really, really dislike the idea of TL playing so differently from the rest of the rest of the game where changes probably aren't needed so much

[open lion]

but whats wrong with nerfing pcs

like if they do extended spdc just like do tki lst and ds

if you just take away the pc from sdpc then you can live easily (probably)

[torpid acorn]

Well, that's exactly what my proposed solution was

their argument is there are openers that don't rely on PCs that wouldn't be nerfed by this

though frankly the PC openers in my experience are far more common

its partially because PCs are a fixed and rather high amount of garbage added onto whatever garbage the line clear sends

rather than being variable

honestly the fixed value is probably a good thing but I think it's too high. If a PC is taken down from 10 lines to maybe 8 its still a decent attack but is less likely to be instant death in an opener

[grand topaz]

the idea is to not have to memorize a set of placements from an external wiki in order to stand a chance against what's effectively a 28-piece recipe to winning the game, and then otherwise stack like a D- rank

If you can make a C-spin outside an opener then 7+X won't stop you from doing that

[odd dew]

wait this is still in discussion?

[grand topaz]

I've been seeing botched BT -> c-spin and also. Interestingly, a DT cannon into TST Tower in A rank

[grand topaz]

yea it's still an even split

[odd dew]

14k messages lmao

[grand topaz]

The sad thing is that what we actually do see imo is that the game retained the people who like openers, because those who didn't might have already left

Personally I'm just try-hard and tenacious enough that I don't give up on some things early even when bashing my head against the wall

[eternal merlin]

Someone should do a bullet point recap of everything that’s been said

[grand topaz]

Time to throw 14000 messages into chatgpt

[eternal merlin]

Inb4 it trolls us and changes some points

[odd dew]

which models have big enough context window 🤔

[grand topaz]

Well it's not worse than it already is then

[odd dew]

hot

[grand topaz]

that's pretty dope

[odd dew]

I can ask it for more details, but that's very long, here's the chat for anyone to play with it

[winged tartan]

the bag-1 system

[grand topaz]

i wonder what the bag-1 system is

[sharp condor]

you get 7 bag but delete one piece

like 7-1

i presume

[winged tartan]

1-bag
only

[grand topaz]

remove the early O

[hybrid depot]

i guarantee, someone will lab a late o opener and this suggestion will stop working

[hybrid depot]

i do not consent to being used in an ai!!!!!1 😡😡😡😡😡😡

[autumn summit]

already exist

[hybrid depot]

if we do anything to the bag, it needs to become more unpredictable without having bias to any piece

[autumn summit]

tpc

you can make tsar cannon or ms3

its really easy

[rare sequoia]

to everything adt said

[swift pilot]

out of 14k messages it chose to bring up mine #1225191549881810965 message

[torpid acorn]

dt cannon isnt really an opener though, you can do that basically anytime

[grand topaz]

every day i hope 7+X comes back

every PC looper and LST stacker affirms this thought

maybe one day

[hybrid depot]

we, get it

[eternal merlin]

zhun try not to mention 7+X every day challenge impossible

[grand topaz]

https://vxtwitter.com/RakuraiMedia/status/1793176897330856228 opener culture in 7-bag

[honest oriole]

waste T nightmare

[winged tartan]

when i say only i mean there's only one
you run out of pieces afterwards

[mental storm]

me when i deck-out in tetris

[grand topaz]

imagine that you just remove 1 piece from every bag

at random

[hybrid depot]

thats just a droughtfest

definitely worse than 7+1 unless it's done as a chaotic gimmick

[hybrid depot]

also we already know this

[grand topaz]

but the worst part of opener phase is that it ruins the average stats

so you can't really know if 70 APM means people know how to play beyond the 35th piece or they just loop something

[hybrid depot]

im pretty sure you can determine if someone is an opener main by bloated stats, but there is a thread talking abt scaling stats by round length which technically is more accurate

[fossil charm]

hits you with the

No more moves can be made.

UNDO some of your moves with the UNDO button or RESET by clicking the indicated pod to the left.

Press HINT any time you are stuck on a puzzle!

[bronze crest]

Bejeweled 💎

[keen elbow]

no more moves

[mossy lake]

no moves is what opener main gets after they misdrop 💀
nothing new to them

[eternal merlin]

4w

[tired flame]

so like the first 4-5 bags have no T or I pieces?

wait 3 random pieces . . .

so 4 bag?

[grand topaz]

Remove 1 piece from each bag

[chilly robin]

Would be fun with allspin ngl

[winged tartan]

can't say i agree? and i'm the allspin guy lol

[scenic iron]

Openers feels like a lose-lose situation to me, like yeah I love winning a round using SDPC-Spin but it doesn't feel very "deserved"/"worthy"/"skillful"

Personally, compared to midgame, I think that winning to openers doesn't feel that satisfying, and losing to openers feels more frustrating

To be clear, I tried 7-X and yeah I hate it too when I can't do my opener, but that's just how humans react to changes. I do believe that once 7-X is rolled out and people start transitioning and get used to it, it will feel great when they win and "my opponent deserved the win" when they lost.

_ _
as for blitz and 40 lines I feel like there's world record label attached to it so I don't think people will like leaderboard resets nor bag changes, but maybe a new mode (5 million blasts anyone?) would be a welcome additon to singleplayer modes

[grand topaz]

I like the changes to openers because you get to do other things and less confined to doing one specific thing that serves as a counter

[hybrid depot]

starting to think 7+x isnt as bad as i thought before

would still be interested in finding other solutions but if this is all we have, it's alright

[scenic iron]

14-bags anyone?

[open lion]

I don’t think this bag will ever happen though

at least in tl

[grand topaz]

that's quite painful

7+X is less disruptive

i mean it could be 7+2, 7+2, 7+2, 7+1 instead of 7+3, 7+2, 7+1, 7+1 🤔

[mystic yoke]

at least you recognize the degree

[coarse elm]

I'd be down for an experimental mode of 7+X, maybe have its own arbitrary ranked TR as well?

sounds fun imo

[hybrid depot]

id be down to try that

[onyx tide]

def not 7+1 cause dpc

I feel like people should have a quick choice at the start of each match/game. - 7 bag or 7+X
If they both pick the same thing, that is what type of bag it will be.
If they pick different options, then it should be 7+X

[grand topaz]

7+X already is 7+3, 7+2, 7+1, 7+1 affecting the first 4 bags, that's what i meant

[onyx tide]

oh ok then yea thats fine

tho maybe not in order cause pc ppl are insane

[hybrid depot]

i think 7+x is mostly alright in its current form, cuz the 3 extra pieces are not at the start of the queue

pc setups assume the extra pieces are at the beginning

[torpid acorn]

I just find 7+X more disruptive than simply shutting down openers. It messes with other more drawn-out strategies as well

I did just fine during that little test run but I didn't really enjoy it. Yes, I went into it knowing openers wouldn't work

And as i've said a number of times before, I don't like TL having substantially different rules to the rest of the game

[grand topaz]

if the more drawn-out strategy is starting with LST, then that's also just as much an opener and it makes sense for it to be disrupted

[open lion]

I still don’t think you can remove normal 7 bag cause bassically half the community agrees and disagrees

and with the thing saying there’s not enough player base for 2 tetra leagues they maybe just not play tl if it’s just 7x

but I guess idk if it makes sense or not

[warm galleon]

Also should think about the people that quit tl because they get frustrated with dealing with openers

[open lion]

I guess that maybe more people would quit from openers than if 7x was added tho but I mean everyone just says to just deal with openers

And I maybe kinda did

speedgap will be maybe a problem and maybe matches more stale

[pseudo heron]

by "the community", you mean "members who decided to join the Discord and are fairly active in the Discord", which is a very non-representative slice of TETR.IO's player base

this subset of the player base is skewed heavily toward higher-ranked players. additionally, players who prefer using kill openers are going to be more likely to join this server and be active because they're very willing to go out of their way to use external resources (e.g. four.lol) to learn those kill openers. people who just want to "play the game" are less likely to join a Discord server and/or use those external resources. the result is a thread that seriously overrepresents people who are opposed to 7+X (kill-opener mains and those who are more resistant to change). this thread is not meant to be an accurate poll of attitudes; it is meant to generate discussion and reveal more insights from different perspectives

this is pure speculation, but I'm willing to bet that the actual percentage of players who would prefer 7+X or something like it is far higher than ~53%. after all, this change is meant to solve a problem that primarily affects lower-ranked players, and much of the opposition comes from the high-ranked players. low-ranked players are far less likely to join the Discord server, let alone participate in this thread

[open lion]

tbh tho osk should maybe make a in game poll or idk maybe will make real numbers maybe won’t

not very sure maybe

[pseudo heron]

unfortunately won't make very good numbers for a few reasons:

• is biased toward players who are active during the 7+X test (will skew the results more toward "no")
• risks getting kneejerk reactions from people on both sides (will probably skew the results more toward "no")
• has survivorship bias: players who quit due to openers won't respond because they quit (will skew the results more toward "no")
• requires voluntary response (will skew the results toward the side that has the strongest opinions)

then there's the question of poll design itself - a simple yes/no poll shoves people into one of two boxes: "yes, I want 7+X (3, 2, 1, 1,)" and "no, I want regular 7-bag." this leaves no room for opinions in the middle. for example, I'm in the camp of "7+X but it's less chaotic (something like 1, 2, 2, 1, 1)." if the poll is to contain a third option like "other, please specify", then mods will have to read the individual responses, and this leaves out the opportunity for conversation in a centralized place

most likely, this stuff isn't immediately obvious to most people, so please pardon my walls of text. I just feel like explaining this somewhat in-depth because I love talking about the bit of my statistics class that I remember

[long palm]

yeah a poll would really not work for 7+X considering all the skewed results from the Tl testing period

[grand topaz]

has survivorship bias: players who quit due to openers won't respond because they quit (will skew the results more toward "no")
this is the worst part, i've seen quite a few people quit because they're annoyed with dealing with [whatever is double your speed in tetrio] openers followed up with either absolutely no stacking ability to literally downstacking for 5 minutes and never sending a single attack ever

i'm not surprised people quit

honestly i sometimes wonder why i play this game, like, half the matches are stressful, half the matches are unusually easy, and half the matches are just annoying

still hard-stuck

i can see why anyone in my position would rather just play a game they enjoy 100% of the time and not just "sometimes if they're lucky and otherwise tilt-queue to get TR back" (not fun)

the people who have zero midgame beyond the opener would just fall down to 23.1k and leave me alone

literally just had some guy 6-7 me and then tell me how much i suck because i'm "only 2 pps even after 1300 hours" 🤷

on the bright side at least i found the first actually openly toxic person in U rank in-game, new achievement unlocked i guess

very fun

i probably misdropped 1 piece

i do hope every day that 7+X comes back so that people start to make new things in a game rather than repeat the same thing every single time and then be rewarded for it immensely

[open lion]

I think maybe at least more testing with this stuff if it’s considered and in like maybe not tl or smth cause we got like 1 day or smth

[torpid acorn]

I'm not naming anything specific, you are making assumptions

and in general i dont think essentially removing strategies of any sort because some people dont like them is a good solution to whatever you percieve the problem to be

and its pretty apparent to me there isn't enough of a consensus here for any permanent change to be without controversy

[grand topaz]

openers still the same as ever

the 7-bag backup strategy of a SDPC/DPC main

[queen barn]

people were still 4-widing in 7+x

in fact, 4 wide probably gets buffed by 7+x

[grand topaz]

it's harder to build then

[grand topaz]

baron kept trying to prove this and i kept countering it

[hybrid depot]

i never said i was good at 4w in the first place man

the fact that i was still able to build it was my main point

i mean if you want i can 1v1 you with only 4w and maybe i will get enough practice to do anything substantial

like, i should be able to build it 90% of the time, and by the time its built, the bad pieces are done

[torpid acorn]

well yeah, because the openers that would make things harder for th em aren't there.

[grand topaz]

just send TSD quad to guard

or two-wide quad

either of them would solve it

[open lion]

maybe spdc 4 w

[brazen pawn]

Stupid party dumps candy for wolves

[brazen pawn]

Also what is spdc

[torpid acorn]

Sdpc

[grand topaz]

SDPC AKA Sad Dreadful Purple Clowns are scary specimens that are infesting the Tetrio community and they are multiplying at an insane rate. Remember: DON"T BE A SAD DREADFUL PURPLE CLOWN!

from a reputable* source

[earnest socket]

sad sfands fro scerectly a dinosuat

ae

i cnat tyepft odya

i giev up

[signal crypt]

so we are flaming users for using opener instead of providing information to the people asking now

[bronze crest]

SDPC = Single, Double, Perfect Clear
https://harddrop.com/wiki/SingleYou

[opal hamlet]

Yes, Vał, I know I’m single

[grand topaz]

i'm not

[tidal magnet]

bro typed the ł in vał

[opal hamlet]

I mean it’s as simple as tapping and holding “l”

[honest oriole]

Is that… manakarei?!!!?

[grand topaz]

yes

[severe spindle]

Manaka rei?!?!?!?

[grand topaz]

the sea pancake vtuber???

[open lion]

wat is this thread

[grand topaz]

something about a better bag so that people stop spamming 3.8 pps multi-bag openers

[torpid acorn]

problem is, theres things it still doesnt prevent and completely changing tl from the rest of the game is a bad idea

better to just make some balance adjustments

[winged tartan]

people often say 7+X does too much to destroy any openers lol

[torpid acorn]

you can still 4w and if anything, 7x makes 4w stronger lol

[winged tartan]

not to say the force backing any "serious" research when 7+X day happened was impressive or anything, but the math checks out

ok i don't know why but i just read this and thought you said people were going to just make New™️ eight bag openers

[torpid acorn]

no lol

This whole thing does raise legitimate concerns. I just don't care for the solution presented

the biggest thing is like i said, i dont like TL feeling like a totally different game mode. It's not like removing popular openers makes mechancial performance gaps less noticable

[grand topaz]

but considering it makes various people drop from 2.8 pps to 1.5 pps just because the opener is not 100%-reliable, i don't think this is true, it definitely makes the mechanical performance gaps more flattened out

up to a point in ranks anyway

[torpid acorn]

well ppl seem to be complaining "its whoever does this the fastest"

this implies that speed matters more when we have openers compared to if we dont

but I disagree with that

also personally there is not that much of a difference in my sepeed when i do an opener vs mid game

[grand topaz]

when fighting SDPC, it really boils down to if you can match the speed and send TSD while they TSS

if you're fighting dot-cannon/MS2 then you have a bit more time to send unclean garbage under it but not by much.

in B rank people are doing extended-sdpc-spin, you see some dude trying to 9-0 and they get hit with a 23 spike, but it's B rank so if anything went wrong suddenly it'd be -0.5 pps and 10 APM

and honestly this thread alone shows that without openers, a lot of people think you can't kill your opponent. When i play 7+X sometimes it ends at piece 28 all the same

7+X game

[torpid acorn]

some people think that but I wouldn't agree that it's true

[torpid acorn]

and that last line doesn't really sound like an argument for 7x

"somteimes it ends at piece 28 all the same"

then not much has really changed has it

[grand topaz]

yes and no

there was no step-by-step executed kill guide that makes the experience miserable at B- just because anyone can read the docs directly and do it every game

[torpid acorn]

I see you mention lower ranks a lot as well

but that doesn't even affect you so why are you arguing for it

[grand topaz]

personally i just don't like fighting [some PC opener] into DPC because if they get to DPC it's probably immediate death

[torpid acorn]

Which is why ive been arguing for balance adjustments instead

particularly nerfing PCs

[grand topaz]

midgame PC is pretty nice though

it's just opener that is op because of how opener works

[torpid acorn]

most PCs happen in openers

[grand topaz]

also PC nerf does nothing against extended-sdpcspin/stickspin/sdpcspin

[torpid acorn]

all three of those things have "pc" in them

[grand topaz]

yes but they don't actually go for pc

they're just b2bx2 c-spin

[torpid acorn]

well thats poorly named then :p

[grand topaz]

i think extended might be b2bx3 c-spin quad? not even sure

[torpid acorn]

like a tspin that doesnt have tspins in it

[grand topaz]

shit i don't actually have time to argue here but yeah those spike openers don't actually go for pc

[grand topaz]

BT-STSD also doesn't have a tst in it

name moment

[torpid acorn]

now that just makes my head hurt

i mean yeah, i suppose there are non pc openers but it still weakens popular tactics without eliminating them entirely

people dont have to unlearn things they've known for years

just because some chump in B rank read a thing online and killed someone with it

IMO if someone figures out how to do anything fast, whether it's some slick opener strat or just stacking quads

they deserve to be higher than B rank and they will rise out of it

if you can learn to SDPC with super high pps you can learn to do anything else

personally, i might try to sdpc and sometimes they'll do it too

if i find they're faster at it, I can just do something different

and that often gets me through it

people just have to learn to adapt

[grand topaz]

if you can learn to SDPC with super high pps you can learn to do anything else
there is nearly no incentive

[torpid acorn]

there was certainly incentive for me

by having more skills and plans in my back pocket

i can deal with more situations

[grand topaz]

SS is what it is because there is not enough incentive to do other things

by the time you can somewhat reliably counter the bs-strats you are at least U rank

[torpid acorn]

well lots of ups and downs but ive been slowly creeping in that direction

[grand topaz]

people dont have to unlearn things they've known for years
just because some chump in B rank read a thing online and killed someone with it
technically you can use mid-game setups all the same even in 7+X

it's the exact placements at the beginning of the game that are slightly shuffled

if you have good fundamentals you barely even notice there is a difference other than that stuff like stickspin don't work

[torpid acorn]

as ive siad before I don't like the idea of essentially entirely eliminating various strategies from the game just because its impacted a certain range of players, i just think there are other solutions

And no, it's not because I can't do midgame

I still performed about as well as usual during the test

[grand topaz]

PCs are significantly less of a problem than the "overly reliable skill spikes that you can execute with exact piece placements for 4 bags ahead".

extended-sdpcspin is kind of a problem

and it makes people leave, for a good reason

[torpid acorn]

PCs are a big part of the openers I personally fight against the most.

[spring minnow]

name a plaayer with good fundamentals that doesnt use a single opener

[grand topaz]

you are forced to use openers against openers

[torpid acorn]

maybe that's just a B rank thing but i dont really see this other stuff

[grand topaz]

SS is also literally "opener hell" they call it that

[torpid acorn]

I don't really agree

[grand topaz]

then you are not fighting 2.8 pps extended-sdpc-spin that often

[torpid acorn]

well, yes, I'm not

which tells me its not as much of a problem as its being made out

[grand topaz]

lol

maybe get up here in 24k

[torpid acorn]

Because if it was that good I would be seeing it all the time

and probably doing it myself

NGL

but I havent seen an opener that's just so good that the only way to beat it is to do the same thing faster

[grand topaz]

you need an opener of equal strength

[grand topaz]

it's called extended-sdpcspin

[spring minnow]

no one really uses extended sdpcspin because of how weak it is to spikes

[grand topaz]

psylaris seems to do it with 3.8 pps and obviously it works if you're that fast with it

[torpid acorn]

it sounds to me like the tactic you're referring to isnt as inpenetrable as you suggest

[spring minnow]

counterspikes

[grand topaz]

i feel like you haven't really fought extended-sdpcspin if you think counterspikes work at that speed

you have to guard it there is no other way

[torpid acorn]

Sometiumes I'll scream "thats bullshiat" when I get rekt but really in most cases it was just me playing like crap lol

[grand topaz]

getting 1 line of garbage on opponent board so they become inf-ds-main instead of DPC looper is just shit mechanic

every day i hope 7+X erases DPC-loopers

[torpid acorn]

well theres always the solution that i know no one will like

give the game the delays other games have

delays hamper speed advantage

[grand topaz]

now that would in fact make the game into the 6-3 simulator that so many people here criticize as "boring" 🤣

[torpid acorn]

if you have no delays and you can literally play as fast as you can push buttons

"do it faster" will be a thing no matter what strategies are in play

so it doesnt seem reasonable to me to complain about people training themselves to do something fast

[grand topaz]

or at least in TE:C ZB that's effectively the only actually viable strat due to the delays

[grand topaz]

the idea is to make the game less about memorizing exact piece placements for 40000+ damage

[torpid acorn]

I think its harmful to just go and say XYZ things you can do in any other "stacker" cant be done here because we dont like it

[spring minnow]

its quite posible to survive with cancels and then send back the clean as attack

[grand topaz]

if it makes TETRIO a better game, it's perfectly viable that it can't be done here and therefore TETRIO becomes a better game instead.

[torpid acorn]

right now, aside from being delayless, Tetr.io plays like other stackers and is easy for people to get into

I think it will be a big turnoff from anyone who isn't currently a dedicated TETR.IO fan

[grand topaz]

puyo puyo tetris is niche, and if you are a tetris 99 player then the exact bag sequence at the start is irrelevant

[torpid acorn]

if this change is implemented

[grand topaz]

that's actually unlikely. The current turn-off is that you start the game, get hit with a stickspin on every early O and you don't even know why you're dead, and people just quit the game and play valorant.

[torpid acorn]

i.e. this kind of change only serves the existing community (if it serves anyone tbh)

it will be bad for anyone coming from any other game on the market

unless some other game has also adopted this system

[grand topaz]

it serves lower levels more than higher levels per say, for me it'd remove the need to mess around countering DPC loopers, but lower ranks would actually have stacking as a viable option instead of being forced to "just learn sdpc-spin bro"

[torpid acorn]

but as far as I know these special bag settings were invented with this game

[grand topaz]

which game are you actually thinking of that is actually popular and official tetris rn?

that and 7+X only affects the first 35 pieces. After that everything you've learned is still applicable.

[spring minnow]

or send like any attack while its still being built with tss lmao

[torpid acorn]

that's where you're wrong

[grand topaz]

even before it, it is applicable, just not with literally every single piece placement being fed to you by a wiki document

[torpid acorn]

7+x doesnt just mess up openers

it messes up anything besdies just random stacking tspins and quads

[grand topaz]

it messes up anything bedies just random stacking tspins and quads
i see no problem

finally you can't just apply the same formula over and over

[torpid acorn]

and it feels like I have to throw down the first 4 bags as fast as I can to get to the actual game

which isn't a whole lot different from doing an opener lol

[grand topaz]

currently you don't even get to the actual game unless you happen to send uneven garbage below the loopers.

[torpid acorn]

thanks for illustrating that there is a counter

frankly all of these tactics have counters

to me, its little different than choosing an opening move in #927697331099430923

except chess is turn based and this is real time

[grand topaz]

it's not fun, dude

it's honestly stupid

it's one of those things you do like periodically scrubbing the toilet

you invalidate the bullshit and you get to the actual game beyond the DPC loop

[torpid acorn]

subjective

if i wasnt having fun I wouldn't be playing

[grand topaz]

and sometimes you fail and suddenly "oh look, DPC"

[torpid acorn]

and like i said

[grand topaz]

i wonder if my tenaciousness is an error because i probably would have quit long ago

[torpid acorn]

its not about being an "opener main"

I muddled through the test they ran and came out relatively in the same place i was before it

[grand topaz]

vaow fun

literally a -0.9 pps drop

oh look i failed the TSS at the start guess i die

[torpid acorn]

I can do midgame not just openers

[torpid acorn]

you say this like being punished for mistakes is a bad thing

I curse myself out for those kinds of mistakes all the time but the fact is, if I messed up i deserve to lose

[grand topaz]

0.9 pps drop once out of "opener phase" tho

this is what the game rewards right now

[spring minnow]

i dont think thats a very good image to prove your point lmao

[torpid acorn]

my pps really doesnt drop that much after an opener lol

[spring minnow]

the stats in that second round are still quite impressive

[grand topaz]

the game in the middle is a real game, the one at the top and the one at the bottom is bullshit

[torpid acorn]

it might go down a little but not that much

[grand topaz]

exactly, i want games like that

the problem isn't that i lose, it's that i lose to bs strats

[torpid acorn]

i wouldn't want FT7 with every game lasting mutliple minutes

[grand topaz]

dpc looping makes the game a massive nuisance

[torpid acorn]

tbh

[grand topaz]

welcome to the game i guess haha

better than league of legends where every game is 40 minutes

and you can't quit ever

[torpid acorn]

well i quit lol a long time ago but not for game length reasons lol

[grand topaz]

i just think last-hitting is not fun

and the game is mostly about last-hitting

[torpid acorn]

the strange thing though

is the games that eliminated that concept have never done as well

[grand topaz]

i guess some people like it.

[torpid acorn]

I mean I'm not like a FAN of it or anything but it also doesn't BOTHER me

no, the reason I quit is much simpler

I really enjoyed some of the other game modes and they got removed

when i started LoL dominion was new

and I really enjoyed it

Then it got removed

and so then i fell in love with 3v3 and heck it even had a ranked queue

I got pretty good at that particularly with a friend

So this "autochess" thing was catching on in its competior, DOTA 2

and they worked on their own version

it was only really ever popular in china but they make big money in china so they pursued it

as late as 1 month before Teamfight Tactics launched, they said 3v3 was not going anywhere

and then TFT launches

and 3v3 is removed almost immediately after

so thats twice they removed a favorite game mode

and i just said EFF 'EM after that

[spring minnow]

why is it bs tho if theyre able to play just as well past opener

theyre just using one to supplement their skill

[torpid acorn]

I can understand being critical of noobs discovering an opener and beating the crap out of somebody

but I think that's really just a low rank issue

i don't think its that much of a problem in the upper ranks

there is counterplay for pretty much any opener

[grand topaz]

because openers destroy that part of the game instead of supplementing it

[torpid acorn]

I just don't see that

if you know how the openers work you can counter them

[queen barn]

IMO in high U you should be ready to counter opener for the most part if opp uses a kill opener

[grand topaz]

it is a matter of speed

[grand topaz]

and it does work unless you misdrop

[torpid acorn]

and the counters dont' really require the same amount of speed training

[grand topaz]

they do

to match 3.5 pps opener you need to do 3.5 pps burst

[queen barn]

if you die then it might just be a skill issue, to put it very. bluntly

[grand topaz]

everything in this game is always skill issue when you lose so that is no surprise

[torpid acorn]

they really don't. No opener kills you with 1 attack.

[grand topaz]

loopers are practically 1 attack infinitely repeated

[torpid acorn]

A loop that doesn't have a PC can't be infinitely repeated because you will eventually run out of room

[spring minnow]

2.5

[queen barn]

ds/plonk strategies can still thrive against opener even with 1pps speed difference or more

[torpid acorn]

i think PCs should be nerfed, even if they aren't part of all openers

[grand topaz]

PCs are not the problem in most cases

i guess it would nerf BT => c-spin loop but... eh

i guess DPC would get nerfed

[torpid acorn]

PCs ahve a fixed attack value that adds in to whatever caused the pc

[grand topaz]

someone said all clear should send lines to both opponent and self, that would be funny

[torpid acorn]

they don't require a btb to be powerful tehy are always powerful

but 90% of PCs (or more) are in openers

thus nerfing PCs nerfs many openers

[queen barn]

like here, you covered the left well, but otherwise it would've been survivable

[torpid acorn]

did they really put the O on the left

[spring minnow]

2 quad :explode

[torpid acorn]

EFF why am I not U lol

[grand topaz]

because you're playing with 1.4 pps

[torpid acorn]

because I make too many errors thats why lol

as pps increases, precision decreases

im just saying

that was a really bad play

[queen barn]

opener may be disproportionately strong to other phases of the game, but that doesn't give you an excuse to not prepare for it, at least at U-X level

[grand topaz]

you should try playing against 3.4 pps

see if you make bad play

[torpid acorn]

I already make bad plays lol

i just expected better from someone higher >.>

[grand topaz]

it was already over when they got the dpc

there was no reason to do anything else

[torpid acorn]

i find it hard to believe its JUST speed

[torpid acorn]

it really wasnt

looking at your setup and your next queue

there was an obvious path forward

[grand topaz]

it was over

[torpid acorn]

it really wasn't lol

[grand topaz]

when they got quad-pc from dpc it was over.

[torpid acorn]

you could easly downstack more than the incoming perfect clear

[queen barn]

you definitely had enough time to survive with a small burst

[torpid acorn]

^

[spring minnow]

15 incoming, cancel 12 ds 8 = -5 lines down

[grand topaz]

on the bright side, i left that game and played better games after.

[torpid acorn]

I'll take this as proof that I have good game knowledge and just weak mechanical performance

[grand topaz]

different rules apply when your opponent is 3.5 pps

just sayin

[torpid acorn]

Depends on how far way you are from that

everything is releative

[grand topaz]

yes but no

garbage travel speed

is constant-ish

[torpid acorn]

There's little difference between 4 pps and 3pps vs 2pps and 1.5

[grand topaz]

so if you can 3.5 pps then you can typically build fast enough to guard garbage that you are forced to tank if you are slower.

[torpid acorn]

the relative gap between is the same

[grand topaz]

and yet cz is #1 and oddly also burst speed 5.5 pps

[torpid acorn]

thus the same plays should have the same outcomes

[grand topaz]

speed matters at every level to let you do what you want

[torpid acorn]

also for the record im capable of better just recent games were playing when i shoudln't really have been playing

[queen barn]

I'm just going to say that it takes just as much or less effort to learn how to counter (or at least survive) a very fast opener then it is to execute it at very high speed
(in my experience)

like a first bag tsd opener or TD opener should suffice to survive most rounds against a 1pps speedgap provided you don't misdrop and know macro strategies

[grand topaz]

i probably need a first-bag TSD opener for early O and no early i

gabe louis keeps telling me i should learn flamingo cradle and flamingo cradle mirror

maybe i should do that

you need openers to fight openers

[grand topaz]

welcome to SS

you know

....into mech??

yea 7+X would have fixed this

[earnest socket]

did you fight niya

[grand topaz]

this wasn't my replay, this is from SS

but i fought niya once

and i won 7-2 it was a confusing match

[signal crypt]

didnt know this thread turned into vod review

[earnest socket]

niya does like 4 pps mech

[grand topaz]

just pointing out the problem 7+X woudl have solved

[earnest socket]

their sprint it mech

[grand topaz]

e.g people literally not knowing how to clear lines after 1 misdrop, in SS

[earnest socket]

https://tetr.io/#r:65a3aca5282f69bfc45b8a46

[signal crypt]

it has been pointed out enough btw

unless you want to beat the dead horse again

then i digress

[grand topaz]

with 7+X, people would have to get beyond the opener phase and play the rest of the game

[grand topaz]

it's been 6 weeks of course everything is pointless at this point

[signal crypt]

complain in #tetrio·general instead

[grand topaz]

dw i do that too

[signal crypt]

at least someone will read your message and probably not get bored by this thread for the 300th time

[grand topaz]

this is the nature of the game

[winged tartan]

what a statement lol

[signal crypt]

[winged tartan]

use the meta defining conversational openers

discord could really do with a reworked RNG system

[grand topaz]

"hi"

[winged tartan]

well now i'm forced to say hi back or else he wins by default

[grand topaz]

pesky opener mains forcing our hands once again

[signal crypt]

roll a 12 to say hello

[long palm]

d12 or d20

[grand topaz]

throw nat 1 and you choke on air?

[winged tartan]

this is truly the equivalent of getting as your first seven pieces

irrecoverable; game has already ended

[long palm]

Truly agonizing

[winged tartan]

[golden drum]

2

If you play well you can survive any opener at 3.5 only going 2 pps and bursting 2.2-2.3

[grand topaz]

i can work with this

[severe spindle]

It hasnt really worked on me but 95% of all my matches against psy were throws or tilt from me

Extended is powerful but if u literally send like 8lines they cant really use extended

[quick sapphire]

Not to be that guy but I'd welcome that as my first 7 pieces .

Challenge accepted.

[grand topaz]

same

i'm happy to be that guy

[hybrid depot]

i mean that is the perfect start to a 6-3 stack

[open lion]

Lol me fight psylaris when I was in u

[open lion]

Lol so cursed

If ur really good at pcs tho I bet you can find one every bag

Then we’d have pc spam openers

If we got pc spammers is it just s kill

[torpid acorn]

I keep hearing this and I just really can't agree. Sure, just like you i see this round or that round end with an opener. but the vast majority of my rounds last at least some point past the first 20 seconds.

If I only played when I was in the right physical state and mindset, and made fewer misdrops/dumb errors I would be U

I've come within striking distance more than once

[sharp condor]

Something like 0.5% of the playerbase was even touching the queue sadly

[sharp condor]

❌

[sharp condor]

❌

Like where are these claims coming from lol

everytime i scroll this thread i'm just reading misinformation machine or something, whether it's actually about tetr.io or anything else

[loud hazel]

we should rename this thread into: someone just lost to an opener main and now is complaining about it

the actual discussion is already over imo

all the points that could be stated were already stated and now we're just beating a dead horse

[signal crypt]

already said it 👍

[winged tartan]

yeah the tenacity of both sides is kinda ridiculous

[grand topaz]

alternately "people who don't know what to do in the game after 35 pieces complain about it"

[mystic yoke]

league misinfo is really funny, like no one here knows about it

[mystic yoke]

the best people finished their talks and dipped, now thread is free real estate 🏃‍♂️

[grand topaz]

i only played league for like 1.5 weeks + URF not like i actually know what it is

i just remember lasthitting monsters

[loud hazel]

i play dota from time to time

from what i know mobas are definitely not all about last hitting

unless you're playing smth like antimage and you kill creeps for 30 minutes before actually helping the teammates

but thats like 1% of the roster

[rigid zenith]

this thread should be locked for the time being imo

[quick sapphire]

Then a new one would just crop up.

[mystic yoke]

that's deletable

[winged tartan]

yeah i mean we'd obviously shut it down as a duplicate lol

but locking the thread means literally killing this idea, there's no way anyone would ever unironically discuss of it again imo

[quick sapphire]

Frankly there isn't anything left with regards to 7+X to discuss unironically. It's been discussed to death.

[winged tartan]

put on six hour slowmode so more individuals can just state their opinions

[grand topaz]

it would be very interesting to see who just says "they won't play if 7+X is implemented", who returns if 7+X is implemented, and who will actually play 7+X even if they claimed they wouldn't

i was expecting to be hit by 6 hours of slow-mode rip

[winged tartan]

i don't really feel empowered enough to effectively do that right now

i re-pinned #1081243074547679302 but ironically i think that made this more of an echo chamber lol

[torpid acorn]

yeah but the damn game prints money, they can afford to leave crap like this for the people who want to play it

[sharp condor]

i don't think they can justify the costs of maintaining something like that, especially since recent years have shown they needed to layoff like 10% of their staff or something and cancel big projects

[torpid acorn]

the projects they cancelled were from third party studios contracted to make games

like the single player RPG they made and some other stuff

their justification after the fact was the map used old systems and they would have to test every new champion with more stuff if they kept it

[grand topaz]

#lobby

[torpid acorn]

tangents

[dusky rose]

i want sdpc Gone

that's a fair reason for 7+x bagi think

[grand topaz]

same

stickspin, sdpc and sdpc-spin and flattoptki=>lst will all be gone

[thin grail]

tbh for maximum "fuck openers" the X in 7+X should also be randomized

[grand topaz]

i hear the first 7+3 already makes the game "unplayable" according to some opener mains so it's already working

[thin grail]

i don't want to take any bets tbh

sooner or later strats will be devised, so more obstacles won't hurt

[thin grail]

can we 📌 the arguments to make it easier to find

[loud hazel]

skill issue on their part lmao

sometimes i skip openers entirely since im lazy to burst pps opener all the time and that usually doesnt change anything at all

i just like having them as an option

[thin grail]

again, it's less of a problem in higher ranks

[loud hazel]

yeah

[thin grail]

because people actually play the game

and not just stop after they finish the kill opener

[loud hazel]

if you aint good enough thats a you problem not a game problem imo

[thin grail]

i don't disagree with that argument but that does not justify the experience of many players

it's either "learn opener" or "learn another opener" until you can get to the good stuff

fortunately i am seeing less opener mains now around A - or maybe they are all in S now after inflation

[loud hazel]

the thing is, opener mains can never get anywhere with just opener

you still need midgame to climb the ranks

so they all will end up hardstuck in a single rank until their midgame gets good

and by simply learning all the different ways to counter openers you can easily start winning against the hardstuck opener mains

all it took for me to get out of the ss/u inflation zone is to plonk specifically their openers

i didnt have to even learn how to properly plonk in midgame

just that

[thin grail]

can we talk about the A/S zone instead

remember, the argument is not that "opener mains are strong and should be nerfed" it is that "you can not choose a different play style against a certain play style"

against opener mains there is few options and it does not make the game interesting

[loud hazel]

idk anything about it sooo

i can only talk about the u rank zone and maybe a bit of ss

but i got out of ss like half a year ago

[thin grail]

it's why you don't really understand the situation

half a year ago is different from today

[loud hazel]

i still see ss ranks from time to time on tl but those ss ranks are usually always borderline U

[thin grail]

i'm going to get to the A/S border soon and I'll report what I find

[loud hazel]

so i get your point

[loud hazel]

yeah i get it

you either just beat them by simply being faster or plonking and dsing

[thin grail]

another thing to keep in mind is to get to midgame you need to pass the opener

[loud hazel]

the main problem for people to learn how to get past the opener is that theres not enough resources out there for people to figure things out

[thin grail]

I can midgame just fine, in fact, but i'd die instantly at sdpc spin, I don't have a chance to midgame

[thin grail]

this is a valid point

openers are covered way more often than other areas

[loud hazel]

I usually tried to be braindead faster but

i ended up being stuck in ss/low u

[thin grail]

another thing

[loud hazel]

since that didnt work that well

i had to have a top 30 global friend explain things to me on how to be more efficient lmao

[loud hazel]

and your average a rank simply cant pull someone like this out of their pocket for free tetris coaching

(they can get wumbo coaching though)

[loud hazel]

/s if that isnt obvious

[thin grail]

The argument that "People can just learn to counter openers" imo is really dumb. if people learn openers then learn opener counters, you end up with pretty much the same game as when openers don't exist, but a far worse experience for new people as I've said

[loud hazel]

i disagree

different openers counter each other

so it kinda adds a little bit of rock paper scissors