7+X-Bag in TL

[mystic yoke]

that's vs the pc loop openers, not else

[slender torrent]

well

any decent midgame can beat some decent non pc loop

[mystic yoke]

higher ranks also have the freestyle skill to counter openers, but that skill is weaker as ranks go lower

[charred walrus]

pov: u use mech

[slender torrent]

well so learn counter it instead of using it?

[charred walrus]

“non pc loop” 💀

[mystic yoke]

the problem is the health of the rank when "winning the game" revolves around the first 10 seconds

[slender torrent]

pov: you have the most good argument which is "lol you use <opener>"

[mystic yoke]

well ~15 for lower

[fallow copper]

Stops loop yeah but doesn’t stop them from being more efficient than you when the lower players can’t even form a t spin or stack correctly

[charred walrus]

“non pc loop” is like 1 thing lmao

[slender torrent]

if you practice freestyle as you practice opener, pretty sure it shouldnt be much difference on efficien(cy?), not enough to die till the opener ends

that used to happend when I started playing tetris with a friend of mine, his game was basically trying to stall me till I md or end the opener, and use all the garbage I sent to finish

well I think interaction with 2 or more playstyles much more fun than just who is better in x thing

[charred walrus]

Ur saying that but opener is negative interaction

[slender torrent]

ok the "you do <opener>" one

[charred walrus]

Ok no more ad hominem, opener mains literally just do the same thing regardless of anything that happens

So i doubt they actually interact with their opponents board or anything

[slender torrent]

well if they do that, theyre just bad opener mains, kek

anyone that have basic plonk could beat it

[charred walrus]

Lol cuz basic plonking is so easy

[slender torrent]

see

so you agree that opener main isnt a issue

[charred walrus]

i was being sarcastic…

[slender torrent]

eh, were you?

[quick sapphire]

Something that isn't an issue for one person doesn't exclusively not make it an issue for anyone else tho

[charred walrus]

Ok lets define basic plonking to be 0.7 app, 0.15 ds/piece average (pretty easy fr fr) - i dont think new players can do that

[fallow copper]

Freestyle down there is like 9/0. So say someone does DT cannon and pulls off the T spin even if you don’t die they could probably build back to a fat 9/0 or 4 wide you after before you could keep spamming quads

[charred walrus]

i dont think a lot of experienced players could do that

[slender torrent]

basic plonking is just plonking the opener

[charred walrus]

You’re underestimating both the difficulty of plonking and how oppressively fast openers actually get

[slender torrent]

if the dt cannon main build back a 9-0 and still beat the 9-0, it most imply that he would win anyways with only 9-0

[slender torrent]

and you're understimating the difficulty of not missdropping and fixing those with opressively fast opener

[charred walrus]

Even with an average of well over 0.8app in the opener i normally struggle playing against 4.5pps with 2.5pps; imagine being 1.5pps and playing against 3pps openers

[fallow copper]

Yes and no? The person doing the 9/0 has a heavier weight load and pressure to deal with being closer to the top. Idea probably works better with a one dimensional opener because you don’t have to think where you stack

[slender torrent]

if 2.5pps has already chance to beat 4.5pps I'd call it a win win

[slender torrent]

cancel

[charred walrus]

Openers are pretty much the same efficiency no matter your rank, but your ds and defense get a lot better; thats why openers arent as much of an issue in X rank

If you’re SS theres no way you defend against double speed openers

[slender torrent]

well thats a truth

[slender torrent]

just dont have half speed? maybe? or you think its impossible to improve speed out of opener

[sage plume]

Openers: If you memorize this loop at 3 pps then you will be X rank pressure (for at least 10-20 seconds) -> takes a week or month or so for new players if they grind
Midgame: If you learn all of these improvised setups at 3 pps then you will be X rank pressure (for a longer time) -> higher skill ceiling, takes years to master
Slower midgame at 1.5 PPS still probably takes more time to grind than memorizing the opener

Reward:Effort ratio for opener at lower ranks is insane compared to that of midgame

It would still take a long time for the beginner midgamer to be able to defend against the opener consistently

[slender torrent]

ok teach me that 3pps loop that makes me x rank

[charred walrus]

Openers are a skill, but its not a skill that is really beneficial for the game

[sage plume]

I'm saying X rank pressure, not actual X rank. At 3 PPS with SDPC-spin, you would be at least 150 APM, which is already X rank stats for a couple of seconds. But lower leveled players don't have enough defense yet and it takes a while to learn defense so those few seconds are enough to kill.

[tired flame]

if you ignore midgame entirely, but either upstack or ds ability to survive opener specifically how does this changes it?

[charred walrus]

Dont think they said it would lead you to X, but the loop isnt mech lol

[charred walrus]

Openers tend to ruin interaction between players and they involve lots of repetition and stifle creativity; their power relative to difficulty results in a lot of people opener maining

[slender torrent]

btw in short thats my opnion about that subject:

[daring hill]

[grand topaz]

be 0.7 app, 0.15 ds/piece average (pretty easy fr fr) - i dont think new players can do that
i feel like by the time you have that sort of stats you are at least high SS

[charred walrus]

Im not gonna say 5pps opener isnt a skill because it is, but also is it really interesting to compete in who can place 35 memorized piece setups faster?

[sage plume]

Well, you can certainly try to upstack or ds, but if you do any of it incorrectly then you die lol

If you have a rough board or you send clean or screenwatch at the wrong time or if the garbage rng doesn't favor your stack or you hesistate even just a little bit at a slower speed, then you probably die.

[grand topaz]

U rank competition in a nutshell

[sage plume]

It's not impossible to counter opener with midgame at all, but it's certainly a lot harder than just using another opener to counter

[slender torrent]

well if they cant, have you considered why does tl puts 2 people at similar rank?

[charred walrus]

the issue isnt that opener is unbeatable, which might be true for 2 players of the same gametime but probably not true for 2 of the same tr. the issue is the gameplay resulting from opener spam which is honestly just dumb.

[grand topaz]

S/S+ has a lot of people who either "get the opener" or "flail until they collapse"

[slender torrent]

if I put out to compare someone who can 3pps midgame with 2pps opener and say that midgame can win would feels the same

[grand topaz]

technically to counter opener, your burst speed has to match the opener speed (somewhat closely)

[slender torrent]

disagree for experience.

[grand topaz]

unless you have high garbage efficiency and do shenanigans that are beyond my comprehension (see gabe_louis)

[tired flame]

I'm just wondering if opener maining is that dominating or not for newer players on the lower end

When i started TL, openers like SDPC were not the issue, it was 4w and plonk openers like tki into plonk or c-spin/td.

[grand topaz]

on the bright side, 7+X even messes with tki+plonk

[tough light]

little unsure about openers can be beaten in__ same__ tr, they might have lower tr because they couldn't win against someone who somehow can counter opener

[slender torrent]

from all D rank gameplay I saw, The max was 2 wide

[tired flame]

While i did not start completely brand new, I did play at 1.4-1.5 pps and been basically slower than my opponents in midgame and opener pps for like 3 months.

[tough light]

so their TR goes like up because opener maining works and goes down again because they can't win with openers and loops

also tr can be always changed so it would be more appropriate to say likd "similar midgame skill, same APM" or something

[tired flame]

that's not a bright side, I find that its more boring but wahtever

[slender torrent]

sorry but opener spam at same level will likely ends up in midgame gameplay ||that usually takes ages to end kek||

[grand topaz]

you must be excited to hear that the highest Opener score D rank player in their last 10 TL games is using mech-tsd

[sage plume]

I mean, it's not like no one can deal with it, but at least half of them struggle

Also someone with 3 pps midgame with 2 pps opener would not have 2 pps opener unless they are trolling or timing as the opener phase is basically midgame for them

TL would put two A ranks at the same TR but it doesn't consider their skills

Like X rank opener, C rank midgame vs A rank opener and A rank midgame

Or top 100 players with 24.8k midgame but top 10 opener pressure

The opener (especially with speed) is there to inflate their TR to some degree

[slender torrent]

EW MIRRORED

[grand topaz]

lmao

they're on a win streak too, new tech moment

[slender torrent]

I meant 3pps midgame vs 2pps opener

[slender torrent]

bro a quad quad spike would kill mirrored 😭

[sage plume]

If someone had 3 pps midgame and was lower ranked than usual then that means that they have something fundamentally wrong about how they play

Whether it's from infinite upstacking, not dealing with spikes, mding all the time, not cancelling cheese, or not being aware of opponent in general

[slender torrent]

||gotta get my mom from hospital btb||

[slender torrent]

same feels with 5pps opener and 2pps midgame which is my point

[grand topaz]

is this "reliable tsd" (D rank)

Playstyle:
➤Opener: 0.8345
➤Plonk: 0.1187
➤Stride: 0.6945
➤Inf DS: -0.5563

[sage plume]

but it's easier to grind speed with opener than it is grinding speed with midgame lol

Sure, the opener only covers up the lack of skill someone might have, but it is still relatively effective, and especially for lower ranks, grinding midgame to be able to counter X rank pressure as an A rank is a LOT of work

[quick sapphire]

"Just play faster 4 head "

[fallow copper]

I remember when I got pco looped in C+ rank

Also a month ago I ms2 DPC’d someone in B+ rank

[grand topaz]

why is DPC in B+ rank

[fallow copper]

I was a victim and became a bully

[grand topaz]

tbf i also learned stickspin/extended-sdpc-spin to stand a chance against it, altho i still can't execute it as fast as those who "main" it

[fallow copper]

Understandable

[fallow copper]

Also it was because I enjoy figuring out pc and the DPC tbh was way easier to solve than the ms2 ones at least for me

Especially the one where there’s like 2-3 possible solves

[slender torrent]

bcs its not op as it seems like

[slender torrent]

so ur helping me saying that even with opener you still cant leave D rank for certain level

[neat pagoda]

That person might be smurfing, their recent 10 is 8 wins (mostly sweeps) and 2 forfeits.

[grand topaz]

i think they just learned new tech recently but didn't climb out yet. Sheetbot says they should be around C+ with such low inf-ds.

[neat pagoda]

Well either way they're sure not losing in D rank while doing it.

[sage plume]

I wonder what people have to say about this match (openers vs midgame): https://tetr.io/#R:jgPgKo5Hf

[fallow copper]

Nah I climbed pretty easily after I learned it

[sage plume]

because this is quite something

[slender torrent]

I'll find my 1v1 against someone who only midgamed me and ask the same

[fallow copper]

wtf 336

[slender torrent]

441 round

[sage plume]

5 game wins solely from opener

[charred walrus]

this must be enjoyable to play

[fallow copper]

That too

[sage plume]

against a player that can definitely go 4 pps

[grand topaz]

wow it's PC/PC/DPC duel

[fallow copper]

What rank are they

[autumn dune]

S

[sage plume]

top 10 vs top 20

[slender torrent]

put top20 opener against top 10 midgame

[sage plume]

to be fair this is the closest we get because everyone else is pretty standard

[fallow copper]

Ur Z rank

[autumn dune]

yeah

[slender torrent]

btw tsds pcs is pretty insane

[fallow copper]

Ngl that stat diff is wild

I guess for both players

[sage plume]

A game that would be just midgame should be pretty close between these two players

But openers make a significant difference

[tired flame]

I would say reliable is not an opener someone new should use . . . you either have to stride fast with it to upstack or plonk with it, but gl with plonking cheese and gl with striding fast then you wouldnt be in D rank.

[slender torrent]

I think if you reliable at D rank at 0.3pps is enough to win? not sure tho

[tired flame]

Im not sure where you going with this but I would see a D rank fail bag 2 JZLI just from failing to read the queue properly too much to make reliable viable to get out of D rank

[slender torrent]

Zhunger sends what is supposely a D rank reliable up there

[severe spindle]

Also the lower ranks cant stack properly in the first place how would changing to 7+x help if they cant even stack properly?

[grand topaz]

but their inf-ds is negative, so it's easier this or death

[grand topaz]

they would be forced to do their regular stacking rather than crutching openers to "get out of their rank"

[tired flame]

Im watching them fail bag 2 and bag 3, and then opponent harddrop spams to the top

they also failed to do bag 1 of dt cannon

[severe spindle]

If u gave then a q of like sszzii they wouldnt really be able to do much and would hurt their overall game

[grand topaz]

amazing D rank games

[grand topaz]

hurt their game?? they would just play like normal and see what happens.

i fought a C+ rank once with 0-next-queue and i lost because they were used to not looking at the queue at all. it was funny

they just look at whatever is the currently spawning next piece and then figure out where to put it.

[fallow copper]

I can only see 1-2 pieces ahead it’s very tragic

[severe spindle]

Also not liking openers and nerfing them is one thing but completely removing them is a completely different thing

[primal gale]

I refuse to believe D ranks are actually learning reliable tsd what has the world come to

[grand topaz]

hey are you stuck in your rank? why don't you learn an opener? let me show you a cool opener it's called stickspin reliable tsd

[onyx reef]

cool their relative skill level goes up a rank and then they are forced to learn the rest of the game

[severe spindle]

From what ive seen they cant even recognize properly whether its possible to use an opener with the bag

[golden drum]

I've made one

[fallow copper]

Alternatively they could just have an even faster opener

[onyx reef]

and then they will have even faster midgame with their mechanical skill and become a strider :D

[fallow copper]

Where show

[golden drum]

Gimme a sec

[severe spindle]

I feel called out

[fallow copper]

Or hear me out amber, they get their opener so fast they just kill themselves on the spot when they get forced to play mid game. The final commitment as they say

[daring hill]

Cavernous puizzle

nice one

[fallow copper]

Fully commit to opener main and throw game away when it doesn’t work

[onyx reef]

and thats where they get hardstuck u rank and realize there has never been anyone who got x rank in recent time off pure opener

[severe spindle]

Spelled name wrong smh

[fallow copper]

I have auto correct on D:

[onyx reef]

ok but ngl i have never seen this opener main -> quitting pipeline

[severe spindle]

LMAO tru tru

[onyx reef]

people talk about it all the time but ive never actually seen it happen

[winged tartan]

how could you lol

[mortal scroll]

bro i tried to learn stickspin yday and genuinely couldnt visualize the lj formation in bag 2

[winged tartan]

they disappear for who knows why

[fallow copper]

They can be the first… the true opener main

[winged tartan]

i've 1000% seen a good friend of mine rage quit the community because of

[mortal scroll]

multi is gone 😔

[slender torrent]

wow just had midgame tl... It's just insanely fricking boring lol

[onyx reef]

multi is banned 💀

[fallow copper]

The opener main of all opener main

[grand topaz]

cool their relative skill level goes up a rank and then they are forced to learn the rest of the game
apparently that kinda gets diminished to the point that the rest of the game is seen as "9-0 and inf-ds until someone dies"

[onyx reef]

isnt that literally most of midgame?

[grand topaz]

might be, but not when i watch top level play

they keep b2b while ds, very wild

[onyx reef]

no one can play like top players at that level duh

[grand topaz]

i mean why is that? top players can do it, and others could too if they practiced it at least somewhat.

[onyx reef]

if they could theyd be top players too lmao

[golden drum]

Here's one of the minimal solves

[fallow copper]

Is that quagmire with M-swampert arms

[grand topaz]

there is no incentive nor opportunity to get there becasue the game focus is opener phase (imo)

whenever someone wants to "climb a bit further" they try to optimize their opener for kill

[fallow copper]

What does one call this

[golden drum]

Dumb

[fallow copper]

[golden drum]

We should move channels rq imma go to #tetrio·general

[grand topaz]

that is a sick solve tho ngl

[onyx reef]

diminishing returns, its more effective to keep both at equal skill level than to focus on one

[golden drum]

Its so funny lmao

[onyx reef]

given enough games as long as the players arent literally topping themselves out if they md opener constantly they will learn midgame one way or another

[open lion]

is the second s spin even possible

[charred walrus]

yes

[grand topaz]

they will learn midgame one way or another
to some degree, this thread is testament that even up to low X, the mid-game is often seen as "either 6-3, 9-0 or 4-wide" and nothing beyond that, even tho midgame has all the cool donation tech

[golden drum]

Yes

I have the rotations on the bottom

[onyx reef]

no one can pull that off in a safe manner in low x below because

1. There is no need to
2. If they had that vision at a reasonable speed they’d be very high rank

[mortal scroll]

the 4 methods of stacking: 6-3, 9-0, 4-wide, donation tech

[onyx reef]

i literally did not know how to cleanly donate until i was top 50, why expect an S+, SS, or U rank to be able to?

[grand topaz]

why expect an S+, SS, or U rank to be able to?
the real question is when they will ever need to learn it if the focus of the game is opener

[onyx reef]

they wont learn it because the focus of the game is speed and multiplier below top x rank

[grand topaz]

i really think below possibly U rank, the focus is speed and opener

[onyx reef]

b2b is meaningless when you skim or when you get it you cant follow up because ur

1. Too slow
2. 30 multiplier spike hahaha
3. No vision because A ranks dont have tspin vision yet

[charred walrus]

Fr

[golden drum]

I need to learn b2b lmao, rn my x plonk playstyle is getting zzz spikes for counterspiking lol

[grand topaz]

b2b isn't really needed until you wanna escape 24.4k i think

[onyx reef]

b2b isnt needed until you want to push t100.

[mortal scroll]

b2b isnt needed

[charred walrus]

fr

[mortal scroll]

osk should abolish b2b and replace it with subway surfers gameplay in the background

[onyx reef]

ive been through ALL the ranks and i can say even in high x rank you can get away with .5 app

[grand topaz]

(if this is true, i have no idea what i'm doing in 24.4k, probably just not inf-ds-ing enough)

[mortal scroll]

yoo toptester is still t100 after all these days

[onyx reef]

usually its misdrops plus bad survival decisions in my experience

and burst speed is important to develop

[charred walrus]

the real question is can you get away with 0.5 app at 2pps and the answer is have both players md opener and find out

[onyx reef]

yes, yes you can

maybe not high x rank but x rank yes

[golden drum]

Just get .85 app at 2 pps and you're 24.8

[onyx reef]

24.95

[golden drum]

Wait what I thought that was only enough for 24.8 lmao

[mortal scroll]

depends on what kind of .85 app

[onyx reef]

ok .85 app with good downstack

[charred walrus]

stop openermaining 0.85 app

[charred walrus]

no, probably a bit lower but still 24.9

[mortal scroll]

24925 probably ur fine above that a bit icky

[onyx reef]

i think though really opener maining is not the only prevalent playstyle below x rank its mostly inf-ds because everyone wants to be westl 🙃

[charred walrus]

its stride-infds vs opener

[onyx reef]

stride-infds vs openerinfds ohnoes

[quick sapphire]

Who?

[mortal scroll]

nah its like finite ds vs finite ds and whoever runs out of ds second wins

[onyx reef]

tonyisanoob - stickspins into infds for 5 minutes
psylaris - stickspins into infds for 5 minutes
Anyone below SS rank past the opener - infds

ive watched taws u and normal taws but i cant remember names sorry

[open lion]

wat so good about inf ds

[charred walrus]

nobody plays daily 100L cheese even though its really fun

[tired flame]

hi. daily cheeseracer here

[onyx reef]

back demon

[open lion]

ono edit

[grand topaz]

i dunno what tonyisanoob is doing but i lose 0-7 lmao

[onyx reef]

stickspin and then infds

i know because ive coached him since d rank lol

[grand topaz]

i don't do it daily anymore but i used to cheese-downstack 100L with blockfish guidance like i was following blockfish to see what it would do next to a random board with a given queue

cheese is funny (even my 40L in teto is cheese race)

[severe spindle]

Cheese race is honestly pretty useless u encounter someone like toptester or infinitecheese or sum1 like that

Also its rare that anyone would send that much cheese even tho it may help its not the best exercise i would prefer something like misa

[mortal scroll]

i play cheese race for combo vision lmao

[grand topaz]

mfw i was winning 4-0 against infinitecheese and then DC'd

[severe spindle]

Rip

Also if ur hard stuck () rank thats a skill issue not a opener main issue

[charred walrus]

i dont like this take, cheese race is very heavy on unpatterned stack management

[sage plume]

cheese race is useful the moment you get cheese garbage in vs

[severe spindle]

Thats just my take on it

No one has to agree lmao

[severe spindle]

I can ds it pretty easily and its not a problem for me

[open lion]

ye kinda just opinion also based on experiences

[severe spindle]

Yea

[mystic yoke]

ahh? It's very different to say "i cant make use of cheeserace" vs these players

you cant just say something very wrong and say "oh just me tho dw"

[severe spindle]

Bc it really doesnt benefit me that much..

[fallow copper]

100L cheese and fun together in same sentence

Begone demon I hold the cross

[tired flame]

pretty fun it's like playing sudoku and chess and minesweeper

[quick sapphire]

Is it?

[tired flame]

It's a puzzle mode for low block atleast

[long palm]

You should try some 100l cheese ninetales

[quick sapphire]

I don't do jstris.

[tired flame]

cheeserace been on tetrio for almost ayear

[winged tartan]

i mean if you hang around the jstris geeks you will find plenty of people who dedicate daily hours to cheese

[quick sapphire]

🤨

[tired flame]

#1074616344080810035 there's a file for it in the first message/pins or below me

[winged tartan]

and yeah, drop this .ttp in the game (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/673305180976185403/1074457016984158328/100l-cheese-race.ttp?ex=66341393&is=6632c213&hm=4b73515ab408b161ada872854b0e3500d8d9f354f4599dd2a6996c8bb3928b5d&)

[mystic yoke]

nice

[quick sapphire]

That's how much I play jstris ^

[quick sapphire]

What menu? Custom game?

[charred walrus]

solo -> custom game

[winged tartan]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/909728717276856330/1074128319907373056/howto-import.mp4?ex=663432f3&is=6632e173&hm=59a1a464caa6785f384379d0dc5a07008391473ef2d8813691b40c42eacd2b15&

[quick sapphire]

I'll try a round of it now but I won't be anywhere near as fast as usual because the missus is asleep. It is 3AM after all.

[winged tartan]

[loud hazel]

this is so based btw

[loud hazel]

i learned to do this from ___nek0 and its so funny sometimes

he places his first piece only covering a single column so you can have a 90% chance to immediately send a quad

isnt this just S/Z dpc here

[sharp condor]

Dpc is when you have 1 extra piece, not 3

So it’s possible that after the T piece we get like TO or soemthing

[grand topaz]

today on SDPC in S-

[cyan forge]

thanks for adding an image of a round of tetra league to a discussion that is about a different bag

very helpful

[grand topaz]

i presume you know that the primary aspect of the 7+X bag is to make situations like this effectively impossible

[cyan forge]

does it help the discussion at all though? once again, youre seemingly ranting about a problem that people already know exist

this thread is supposed to be entirely high quality and helpful, so i don't think posting specific cherry-picked screencaps of what happens in certain games with certain people will help the problem at all

[grand topaz]

now this A rank is looping MS2

[fallow copper]

It could’ve been me

[quick sapphire]

I do agree the thread should keep to helpful constructive criticism / feedback. But I also think you're asking a bit much .

There was no way this thread wasn't going to derail one way or the other over something.

[cyan forge]

idk its just that its a repeated thing

repeated derailment or just baseless complaining doesnt do anything

[quick sapphire]

with that also said. I think this topic has been discussed to death to the point where every valid point has been made for both sides and now It's just a waiting game to see what happens next.

We can post about how we hate SDPC or whatever and the other side can argue that killing an entire playstyle is counterproductive to enhancing the games experience.

But that has already been covered maybe a thousand times already. People are sick of hearing about it.

It's clear who is for the change and who is against it. The votes are very close for both sides too.

osk has a lot of thinking to do I'd imagine. There won't be happy people regardless.

But you cannot please everyone.

[open lion]

I mean you prob could if you did two leagues but ppl say player base smol

[quick sapphire]

The playerbase is far too small.

The queue times for the likes of high and is already several minutes

[hybrid depot]

weve kinda seen every argument there is for 7+x. we're already exploring other options.

[wet vine]

another extreme option: get rid of b2b

[slender torrent]

I only feel the other options being worse than 7+x

[fallow copper]

B2B is cool.

[slender torrent]

ngl, btb cool
building 50 of them on qp its like

PAAAAAAAWWHWHHH
THHDHSSSIIIIIPRRROOOAAAAHAHHHH

[tidal magnet]

yeah i think that people continue to argue about openers even though things has been said about it

7+x removes openers but it has too many drawbacks

as u said other options must be explored that accomplishes the same goal with less drawbacks

im not sure how people think about openers but it seems that people mostly dislike kill openers

but other ones like tki are fine because they dont end the game right off the bat and allow the midgame to be entered

[grand topaz]

but with 7+X, you are effectively starting in mid-game 🤔 you don't need to TKI flattop LST to "be in mid-game"

the scary part is that once you're past the 35 pieces, you can still fall back to blitzing if you get lucky with bags, but maybe at that point it's ok

[summer locust]

do you want to kill my tr or what

[cosmic wyvern]

I feel like there aren't tooo many drawbacks to 7+X in general
if it'll make games take too long in the really low ranks (like margin time long), maybe its 7+X could add 2, 1, then no extra pieces instead of the standard 7+X 3, 2, 1, 1
then in x rank matches it might not need the 7+X at all? idk, like maybe one piece in the first bag then the rest of the bags are unaffected

[merry breach]

yea but if its different for ranks then wouldnt ppl just aim to rank up and opener main their way up from there

[rare sequoia]

Only adding one piece just makes dpc an opener

[merry breach]

true forgot about that

[rare sequoia]

And yeah separating by ranks has some problems people further back have discussed iirc

[cosmic wyvern]

oo

[grand topaz]

it adds 3 2 1 1 specifically to add a full 7 bag, otherwise you'd only have 3 pieces

it effectively interleaves a 5th bag into the first 4

[tidal magnet]

i think that some form of openers should be allowed but only for the first bag

[quick sapphire]

Well TKI and MKO are both attainable in 7+X. Simple but effective.

[open lion]

But if you really think about it then everyone would prob just tki and whoever better at it wins

[quick sapphire]

How do you "better" someone at TKI?? It's 4 lines of garbage?

[open lion]

I mean someone can prob still out speed

[grand topaz]

i am playing 7+X 1v1s rn and we are making dt cannon opener

this is 7+X

[tidal magnet]

wrong emoji discord laggyi dk why

stupid slowmode omg

[tidal magnet]

i would consider that a freestyle rather than an opener bc u dont know where all (or most) of the pieces will go beforehand
especially for the setup

[hybrid depot]

what point are you trying to make

[rare sequoia]

that you can still make an "opener" in 7+x

more of just a freestyle dt though

[grand topaz]

that the claim that you cannot make anything cool from the first 35 pieces is unfounded

[rare sequoia]

where was this stated?

[midnight ibex]

I disagree. I feel like almost all players haven't had enough time to fully develop skills required to achieve effective strategies yet. Considering it was only implemented for a day.

The more players we have experimenting with 7+X (either that being from a custom game or TL), the more we will see what works and what doesn't.

Who knows, maybe the meta stays the same and we have another set of openers that players will start using. I'd really love to see what players can cook up with 7+X.

[lament elm]

Even if openers start to be developed, most will just become a soft opener with the current 7+X implementation, serving as nothing more than an idea to freestyle off of.

[loud hazel]

7+X pros: my dumbass plonking strats are actually viable now
7+X cons: my dumbass plonking strats are actually viable now

this says a lot about society..... /s

[hushed oxide]

wow me

[merry breach]

finally someone gets it

[scenic slate]

oh well my dumbass plon'ing strats actually dont work in 7+x like not at all

but they are dumbass so whatever

[open lion]

Wat rank?

[hushed oxide]

u

[trail mesa]

While I like this idea, I'm also an opener theorist and this would make all my openers defunct 😔

I definitely disagree that you can't make openers with 7+x

so while I do think 7+x would be a positive change to tetr.io, I'm selfish and still want toothpaste cone to be meta

[loud hazel]

real

rossel's opener ftw btw

[trail mesa]

what's that

[loud hazel]

lemme show it

this into this mech bullshiterry

80% quad chance btw

[trail mesa]

how is 8/10 90%

[loud hazel]

typo

[trail mesa]

lmao

also what if they send tss

[loud hazel]

uh

dont you dare speak mean words about the best opener ever

[trail mesa]

sublime stacking is the best opener ever

tst tower

anyway this is getting offtopic

[open lion]

this bag is kinda weird tho because there's no specific type of people who like or don't like this bag specifically like plonkers or other groups

[lament elm]

pure midgamers who have difficulties countering openers really like this change ftw

[slender torrent]

@tight harbor tell him

[slender torrent]

and why tf is it mirrored

[grand topaz]

there are two things i miss:
1.) when my hard drop button wasn't placing multiple places when i press it for some reason
2.) 7+X in tl

[grim otter]

so, when will 7+X be implemented?

majority seems to support it

[wanton mulch]

I don't believe it's majority
And the conclusion of the discussion of whether 7+x should be implemented, for now, is that more experiments should be done before actually deciding if it's better than 7bag or not
For now, people are making alternatives for 7+x which could cover the pros of 7+x while avoiding the cons

[grand topaz]

(the erasure of SDPC/DPC as an opener meta strat is not a con)

[slender torrent]

even parts of who supports the idea doesnt supports 7+x

[neat pagoda]

I'm guessing that there'd be an official opinion poll before any permanent change is made.

Although usually the main point of those is to collect reasons in the comments and there's already been a lot of that here.

[mystic yoke]

after exhaustively testing methods to remove opener meta and deciding that 7+x was the best

(there was no other testing yet)

[lament elm]

[open lion]

I think remove pc for a day to test maybe or less

Like I know pco is important but it maybe stops openers

Like maybe disable pc for like the first 30 sec or smth

But it also seems like bad idea

[merry breach]

not all openers are pc

also i had a goofy idea

kinda building upon the 1 mino at the start idea but u get to choose where it is on ur opponents board

could work to counter openers (as in if u know theyre doing a specific opener u can sabotage) but takes the game to a weird style

[open lion]

Rip stick

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392

[merry breach]

yea but instead of it being like random

the idea is you would pick it on ur opponents board

[mystic yoke]

sounds bad

[merry breach]

makes it a silly turn based something

never said its a good idea but its definitely something no one else thought of yet

[cinder vapor]

Would be interesting for macro play. Wouldn't completely destroy openers either as you could very easily either use another opener or attempt a more freestyle technique to overcome the random mino. Though it would be hilarious for those who forget openers can also be mirrored and don't account for both variations.

[slender torrent]

after it I wanna updates to remove midgame meta and opener buff

[grand topaz]

extended-sdpc will reign supreme

the problem is that people can place every piece so reliably for 4 bags that you can do it almost always (except for if the 3rd bag O is "too late".

[grand topaz]

kinda like worms but that would be kinda confusing ux

[mystic yoke]

score attack

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1020291878056362005

[slender torrent]

I didnt understand a thing

[mystic yoke]

versus blitz

[winged tartan]

yeah lol

TE:C has proven that modern score attack doesn't make sense

[boreal drift]

We have reached 12345 (and left it and came back)

CAD NO

[mystic yoke]

the point of pvp is interaction, so score attack would need to punish opponent in some way

unless there was like "score attack stages" where tetrio spawns a unique board and queue, and each opponent score attacks for 5-10 bags and judges wins based on that

[mystic yoke]

i.e how good are you really at upstacking vs your opponent, and isnt opener

but i digress score attack from beginning is boring

[boreal drift]

Guys hold on we gotta keep 12345

[golden drum]

pls

[golden topaz]

got it

[grand topaz]

kzl will win every game

[golden topaz]

nooo

[grand topaz]

those 10 years of ST stacking will finally pay off

[golden topaz]

yeah but its like no gravity

[mystic yoke]

isnt this actually fun? is this worth making a forum post

nah it's really niche

it would be time based instead of bag based

[winged tartan]

well that's not really relevant to this discussion lol

probably just mention it in #1020291878056362005 considering the dependency mode doesn't even exist yet

[signal crypt]

instead of the blitz we have rn its all st stacking

at least its not infinite gameplay on te:c because master gravity is hard

[mystic yoke]

i only wanted to redirect this, i went too far

[winged tartan]

well that's just because DPC in TE isn't exactly as efficient as just getting TSDs every line clear

(guideline nerfing something overpowered in tetr.io?? unspeakable)

tetr.io score attack would 100% just be DPC until gravity becomes too much

[signal crypt]

pretty much

[trail mesa]

?

honestly I'm changing my vote

7+x hell yeah

link to top message because it took me 12 minutes to scroll here and I don't feel like doing that again

I think the reason so many people are against this change is because tetr.io is really the only choice for people who want ranked 1v1 tetris

guideline games generally are less popular because either people don't like the slower pacing, or they don't want to pay for the app

the only other real alternative is jstris, since tetr.io and jstris already have an existing large playerbase, whilst smaller games like wwc and blox don't have many players so matchmaking takes longer and is less fair

and if you look at graphics it's extremely easy to see why tetr.io is the more popular of the two

so a lot of players have really only seriously played on tetr.io, so this change would be a massive change away from the status quo

and as this change inherently affects lower ranked players more, the majority of players will not like this change

because it pushes them out of their comfort zone involuntarily

[grand topaz]

(they could play tetris effect connected zone battle tbf and the game is in dire need of players)

(yes i do play both. the fact that game costs money doesn't mean it is not an option)

[trail mesa]

for most players having to pay money does mean it's not an option

most of the playerbase is still in school

[grand topaz]

(ask for it to be a birthday present)

[long palm]

thats a long timeframe to wait on

[trail mesa]

I'd like to believe that people who don't have that much of a commitment to the game wouldn't rashly spend their birthday money on it

[grand topaz]

(it's been 3 years)

[trail mesa]

I'm pretty sure most of the playerbase is plays tetr.io seriously but at the same time is not that committed to it

[open lion]

i've got tetris effect but the thing is that its different

[trail mesa]

that's just something to consider, not an argument against 7+x

yeah I already mentioned that

money is usually the first barrier, then it's the fundamental difference in pacing

tetr.io and jstris are popular because they're fast paced, not just because they're free

[open lion]

yeah so prob like moving half the playerbase to t effect maybe isnt a great idea

[trail mesa]

but anyway I'd like to move on

The big argument in this thread is mainly about openers

[open lion]

alr

[trail mesa]

there is a bit of sprinkle mentioning unfavourable opening bags, but I don't think that argument really has any merit, because it really only affects you for the first 5 or so bags

once again it would disproportionately affect lower ranked players, but unfavourable bags are still uncommon and tl games are not bo1 anywhere

a lot of people are arguing that you can't make openers in 7+x

and a lot of other people are arguing that you can

and I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to openers

the reason why not having any openers would make the game more difficult is mainly because there wouldn't be an easy path to midgame anymore right

[open lion]

i mean you can make openers probably but not as much and probably not those ones that instakill everyone

[trail mesa]

but an opener doesn't need to have 3+ set bags that can always be done to effectively transition into midgame

[trail mesa]

yeah I'm getting there

TKI is a big example

it's pretty easy to prove that there's no good 100% single followup to either of the main tkis (flat, fonzie)

so why is it so good and popular?

because the first bag gives you a boardstate that is ridiculously easy to freestyle from

and those are the sort of openers that I predict will become mainstream under 7+x

Additionally, I think the sort of opener that will really take off wouldn't be those that use all the pieces in a bag

but rather a setup that utilises 3-5 pieces that you'd go for if you see that you have the pieces for

for example, the reliable tsd formation with the I, L and S on the left

that's something you could go for if you get those pieces early

openers never had to be set and specific setups that were fixed

openers are just meant to open

additionally I'dlike to add

the fact that opener maining exists is the fault of the game, so a solution that fixes that cannot be unfair to the players

if you have a shooter game where one gun is just unjustifiably better than the rest

and the devs nerf it for balancing

is that really unfair to people who mained that gun and never learnt anything else?

no

the root of the issue is that it was allowed to stay that way for so long

and osk can't change the past, so fixing it now is, in my opinion, the best solution

bit like tearing off a leech

(don't take that analogy seriously)

[slender torrent]

That remind of

[trail mesa]

tl;dr

1. most people don't want 7+x because it's a massive change, not because it's good or bad
2. openers will probably still exist but purely to transition into midgame, which is a good thing

[winged tartan]

that remind me of

[slender torrent]

that remind me of (I didn't say I didnt understand that sentence)

[grand topaz]

(the funny thing about TE:C ZB is that it's even more speed-focused than tetrio)

[winged tartan]

ehh, that's a controversial take lol

[slender torrent]

how

[charred walrus]

Eh i would agree with that honestly

[slender torrent]

lemme see if I got it now, you're saying that openers are "free"

and its not like you need to spend times and times and repeat and repeat and refining movements and situations

[grand topaz]

you are literally told where to put each piece and if you have early O works 100% of the time (sdpc-spin would be better example i guess)

[slender torrent]

what if you dont have the early O

[grand topaz]

then you mech

[charred walrus]

FR

[slender torrent]

[grand topaz]

which tells you were to put every single piece for every single bag, lmao

[trail mesa]

the main thing I don't understand is why people think making freestyle-based openers more common is a bad thing

[fossil charm]

and then you just learn to do this prohibitively fast and then game ruine

[slender torrent]

Two things to practice has less weight than focusing both times on improving stall and midgame

[fossil charm]

to the point that countering it is something only x ranks can do

[grand topaz]

based on what i've read, i find that people don't realize they can freestyle openers. I was fighting someone with 7+2, 7+X, total mayhem and we made it a challenge to start with DT if we could, and then said " " when we got it

was fun

[trail mesa]

it's impossible to fix the opener problem without restricting the types of openers that are viable

the only thing that will usurp an instant kill opener is a better instant kill opener

[slender torrent]

I'm pretty sure most B ranks could counter C rank openers if they try

and most A rank could counter B ranks openers

and S to A

etc etc

[trail mesa]

honestly mainly my problem now is that 7+x makes bruteforcing cover extremely difficult

but that's a localised problem

and it really does not affect the game

[grand topaz]

tbf if you watch low rank streams people keep complaining about "smurfs" but in reality it's just people doing sdpc-spin into C rank stacking

[trail mesa]

I'm going to have to apply perms and coms 💀

[slender torrent]

well if they're C rank it means people in their rank still beats him

[trail mesa]

how many possible see7 starting sequences are there in 7+x

[grand topaz]

this is typically S-

[slender torrent]

could be too?

[trail mesa]

omfg I need to open a separate thread to figure this out

[slender torrent]

if they still S- just mean most of S can beat them even if its no opener

[fossil charm]

i mean in the end the better player still wins, sure
but I feel like if you want to rise the ranks rn, you need to either learn to do openers faster (and pick a better opener based on your own queue), or learn to turn the opener into a kill more reliably (midgame)
actually countering openers is something that requires you to see what your opponent is about to do, then quickly build something yourself faster than their memorized pattern

that's just not attainable unless you're a smurf lol

[rugged ether]

it's possible to predict what your opponent is doing tbh

[trail mesa]

no it's not

[rugged ether]

i just need to see my opponent using sdpc once and when i see that queue again, pretty sure they will use it again

[slender torrent]

no it's not depends tho

[trail mesa]

sdpc is my backup

if I do sdpc in round one chances are I won't use it again on the next round

I'll use something like toothpaste cone

[slender torrent]

I do 7 different openers (one being slow playing) on my matches

but

If youre talking about

S rank below

maybe yeah its pretty predictable

but not always

[rugged ether]

doubt you'll top out your opponent with that compared to sdpc (within opener phase)

[fossil charm]

that's to the level of "last time they went with scissors so I'll go rock this time" idk lol

[rugged ether]

so there's no need to "counter"

[slender torrent]

btw yeah that makes sense, but I can't imagine any kill openers that has 100% chance to kill someone barely slower speed using a single tki

[rugged ether]

kinda true, but some openers are more obvious / dangerous than others so it's not that bad imo

[sharp condor]

where are you getting this from

like who is "most players"

[trail mesa]

most of the playerbase

[sharp condor]

from what i've read in this thread there's some pretty real reasons as to why 7+x is bag

[sharp condor]

have you spoken to them or what lol

[trail mesa]

please enlighten me

[winged tartan]

[sharp condor]

;

[winged tartan]

yeah i don't really think you're in a position to make sweeping claims like that

[trail mesa]

yeah I guess not

Ok I don't even need to read this

I can already tell my argument is kaboom

[rugged ether]

my personal standpoint is:
i don't mind 7+x staying, but maybe more of a seasonal change rather than permanent just for a change of pace

[slender torrent]

changes
Half of playerbase waiting:
changes
another half of playerbase waiting:

[rugged ether]

ye, you can't satisfy everyone

[sharp condor]

i don't really agree with this, opener is a free way to rise the ranks quickly but just playing tetrio traditionally doesn't seem to be any worse than it was a few years ago

there's definitely significantly more opener mains nowdays than before but just from watching my S rank friends play, stickspin and whatever can be rly annoying to play against especially if the opponent has the ability to reliably turn the opener into kill (midgame)

[signal crypt]

you also climb up the rank as you learn how to counter opener imo, but thats a pretty decent stress

[slender torrent]

I'd change "free" to beginners friendly to learn

[sharp condor]

nah my friends don't think about countering openers at all and they're still climbing

[slender torrent]

the counter -> tki plonk

[sharp condor]

obviously my friends don't represent the entire playerbase but if their matches are indicative of anything to me, then it's 1) the amount of opener mains are massively overblown in this thread, and 2) stickspin isn't as free of a win as it's been made out to be at S rank and higher

[winged tartan]

(please say ③ 4w isn't that big of a deal )

[sharp condor]

I think stickspin and other kill openers are problematic in lower ranks and I think they deserve a nerf, but I think they're far from the only way to climb, and I don't think you need to specifically train for countering openers to beat them either

[slender torrent]

nuh uh

[sharp condor]

lol yea i see 4w like one in every 10 of their games

[slender torrent]

can I have a off-topic question but about cookies poimt

[sharp condor]

ask in another channel if its off topic

[slender torrent]

its kinda about here tho

[winged tartan]

i mean if it's directly related to these points i don't see how it would be offtopic

[slender torrent]

why when people talks about kill opener, they mostly say stickspin when extended looks more killer to me

[sharp condor]

both stickspin and extended stickspin are kill openers

[grand topaz]

extended is a bit trickier to pull off because it's more pieces and therefore takes more time

[slender torrent]

also kill opener = 20+ dmg?

[grand topaz]

stickspin often relies on opponent sending a quad underneath while extended makes it for yourself

[winged tartan]

it's still the silver bullet to most "what if we just nerfed garbage for a tiny bit" ideas

[sharp condor]

i don't think there should be a strict damage-based definition to kill opener, it should just be an opener designed to kill, which both stickspin and extended clearly are

[slender torrent]

plonkers receinving 2 garbage instead of clean would be sad

[grand topaz]

it's ok i can get out of anything provided enough time lul

[slender torrent]

what about 8L pc openers

[grand topaz]

you mean MS2?

[fallow copper]

[grand topaz]

how many lines is BT => C-spin PC?

[slender torrent]

sdpc and last and tkimech3pc

[rugged ether]

isn't ms2 14L

[slender torrent]

yeah 8L pcs dpc in general

no?

[grand topaz]

might be, i don't ms2

[rugged ether]

or am i tripping

[slender torrent]

Lemme try real fast

[trail mesa]

mmm what if we made EVERY attack send only one line

[signal crypt]

assuming no multiplier it should be 4 + 7 + 7 + 6 + 10

(not counting the skimmed line on pc)

[trail mesa]

that would solve the opener problem

[rugged ether]

idk about but i don't like being stuck at ds-ing cheese the whole game 💀

would rather get opener gamed so i get free clean

[sharp condor]

openers with pcs are basically always designed to kill lol

[signal crypt]

turn into a plonk cancel game because no one wants to accept 1 line

[grand topaz]

7-bag with cheese-only mode not very fun because it favors blitz main, but with 7+X it's actually kinda fun

i won except i failed to save it correctly roflmao

[slender torrent]

its 8

[rugged ether]

o

[grand topaz]

7+X open 👍

[slender torrent]

I mean, everything is designed to kill if you say like that

wtf waste T

two

[grand topaz]

obv

[charred walrus]

Nice 2 wide

[slender torrent]

Bro wants to buff 4w in a level..

[sharp condor]

kill openers are designed to kill with the opener, as opposed to b2b openers like tki which are intendedto get you to familiar midgame board states

[slender torrent]

wtf

cookie knows how to explain to my lil brain

nice

(and have pacience to)

[slender torrent]

is mech b2b or kill opener

[sharp condor]

lol take a guess

[slender torrent]

well

mech point is literally btb to death

but it means

[sharp condor]

ok i edited my definition

[slender torrent]

the opener should kill or it will be killed

o

Btw I still can mech in 7+x

most of times breaks btb and board state tho (yeah breaks more)

hm

you know, I like 7+x

but

pleasekeepthatlilthingonthecustoms

[grand topaz]

i think 7+X would do better for TL so that lower ranks get to play the game, and then 7-bag moves to customs

[slender torrent]

nuh uh nuh uh

lower ranks would lose opener

[grand topaz]

good

that's literally the goal

[slender torrent]

be frustrated cuz cant do anything

leave

and half of U rank will become B rank

[grand topaz]

i don't think you've seen low rank gameplay if you think lower rank will be frustrated that they don't die in 10 seconds

[slender torrent]

and x rank will have 4 ppl

[grand topaz]

skill issue

[slender torrent]

deflation:

[grand topaz]

by the time you counter opener, you are at least low U rank, so top 6%

and then there are still openers executed so fast, even in high U you die

[slender torrent]

well be sure I did, and the ones I did watch, 10 seconds didnt happen any damage besides sometimes 1 garb

[grand topaz]

ok what low rank should i look at

[slender torrent]

That should be question since you proposed the "low rank"

[grand topaz]

i think the primary offenders are S/S+

but you can also find it in B+/A-

there's something about A/A+ that it's mostly two-wide (or mech).

[slender torrent]

wtf

how can people mech and be A

[grand topaz]

slow.

[slender torrent]

that should be auto S+

but

ists

repeated

[grand topaz]

also they misdrop.

[long palm]

You teaching them…

[slender torrent]

oh ok fair

I do that too

[slender torrent]

nuh uh

[slender torrent]

I remember when I joined tetrio Mostly A rank used to 2wide

I've never seen anymore recently tho

[grand topaz]

4voltsbattery uses 2-wide to spike and he's like 24.5k

other than that, yea, 2-wide is a lost tech

i used to be S+ with 2-wide

[slender torrent]

I started S+ with mech

seriously thats the onlything I knew besides dt on that time

[grand topaz]

weird progression path

[slender torrent]

reminder I had only 1 week of modern tetris experience

and 1 week was on ppt

[grand topaz]

oh, i come from tetris 99 in terms of modern

[slender torrent]

then I got my rank on tetrio

if you saw any mech in the bg, it was prob me

but

uhm

yeah imma go sleep

[grand topaz]

i feel like we couldn't possibly be more offtopic than we are now

[grand topaz]

good night

[slender torrent]

I'd agree 7+x on tetris99

getting in topic tutorial

getting off from tl tho

[grand topaz]

weirdge openers in 7+X

[grand topaz]

DT sometimes still possible.. also game is 2+ pps

[rare sequoia]

i just wanna say that by openers I at least dont just mean random setups, as cookie put it openers also have the function of getting you into a familiar midgame boardstate which just freestyling a shape does not accomplish

[grand topaz]

i think it's good that people can't LST from every bag that isn't early O

[rare sequoia]

that doesnt really feel related to what i just said

im just pointing it out because every time someone brings that up you post about being able to do dt every game, which makes it seem like youre missing the point

[grand topaz]

flat-top tki => lst and maybe mko => 6-3 is rather popular, but it's interesting to see what happens if you can't do it all the time.

[rare sequoia]

whats wrong with mko into 6-3?

[grand topaz]

top ranks will always make something cool out of anything.

[grand topaz]

nothing really, just spicing things up by making it less definitive.

honestly that's the least common thing you see, flat top lst is like 98% of non-earlyO-games (random number)

[rare sequoia]

people can still lst from 7+x im pretty sure btw

[grand topaz]

the transition is not obvious (which is kind of the goal)

[rare sequoia]

just put LJ on one side and freestyle right side

[grand topaz]

we ended up hiding osk's messages
#1225191549881810965 message

#1225191549881810965 message

[rare sequoia]

lst isnt much of a problem though from what i know, tki is one of the least problematic openers for a reason

and i dont think its as common as you say either

[grand topaz]

the first 5 t-spins are effectively pre-defined

[rare sequoia]

there are branching paths in the 2nd bag

then youre effectively freestyling 3rd bag

and 4th bag is really freestyle

normally people dont even make it that far into lst before needing to abort either

[mystic yoke]

for about mid U rank or higher players, not lower players

singleyou players reach further down = more problem

[mystic yoke]

i dont agree, it's basically still like "minimal solves for SDPC" = "third bag LST

[rare sequoia]

hm i guess i thats true in a sense

but you can just as easily get 3+ tspins from a bunch of other openers as well

[mystic yoke]

that's why i wrap LST into the same issue and think it's not a negative side effect to kill it

watching low U ranks is really telling when they can opener LST like 5 or 6 TSDs but have zero idea how to start building LST midgame

5 is high even for low U, below 23.7?

[rare sequoia]

lst is usually a bit rare midgame unless youre just talking about maintaining it after finding it

[mystic yoke]

they have zero idea how to even start finding it

i see them fail height management for 3 consecutive bags and think "ah, they only know opener routes instead of fundamentals"

[tired flame]

5 tsds? how many it takes to allow a quad then add 1-2 more tsds usually

that's 7 i think 😔

But yeah LST flattop is basically like opener until then

just replace multiple setups for bags 2/3 as pcsolves same thing

[rare sequoia]

I feel like that's in the ballpark of a player who uses td openers not being able to spot them midgame and calling them out for it despite it being a situational advanced technique, but nonetheless is a bit valid

Openers are usually going to be above the level of what you can do or get away with in a normal game unless you're a top player, and imo that's a part of the fun. If it's not topping anyone out for free, i don't see too much of a problem with it

[summer locust]

and pco takes one bag in 7+x

[grand topaz]

technically 4x TSD + the quads inbetween are definitely enough for top-out and people in U can definitely do it with 3.8 pps from time to time, i was fighting it yesterday but thankfully with a plonk/negative-stride mindset so i countered it

i think if an opening is so mechanical it allows for a disproportionately faster gameplay (3.8 pps LST => 2.2 pps midgame) then it's just as much an "opener" as any other, but in the negative sense of the word

[earnest socket]

7+x bag every Sunday 🙏

[honest oriole]

0

.30

3*-3

02.+95*-6811

[magic viper]

😭

[earnest socket]

7+x bag so fun

its the best

i love it

[magic viper]

7+X bag makes me a U rank

[grand topaz]

can we get 7+X back faster

[magic viper]

no no 7+X anymore p;ls

[grand topaz]

it will finally fix both B-, S-, S+, SS, U and X

[earnest socket]

7+x funny

[wanton mulch]

7+x for saturday and there's gonna be prople who play tl on only saturday and people who doesn't play tl on satruday separated

[grand topaz]

literally just saw an SS do MS2 => DPC => extended-SDPC-spin

but after a misdrop they go from 2.6 pps to 1.5 pps

vaow

[severe spindle]

But can they still midgame?

I drop from 4pps to 2.9pps but i can still midgame

And if they can midgame they should be fine

And eventually get to a rank where they people can consistently deal with it

[grand topaz]

if they could midgame they wouldn't be stuck in SS with that

[tired flame]

I don't get your point about the 2.6->1.5pps

that's just burst pps

like on minomuncher their typical pps at opener is around their burst pps

in the midgame

countdown and seeing the queue does makes burst at the start very easy. While midgame there's also more stuff to consider garbage

so naturally midgame pps is gonan be lower

[wanton mulch]

no i think this guy was complaining about how ironic this player is
who can play fast with high apm with cheap opener gaming
but then plays slow with midgame

[tired flame]

But it's is not expected to be slower in the midgame? It's not really a point

7+x is gonna be the same

[wanton mulch]

hence complaint

[tired flame]

stride out of 35 pieces at "opener pps" then back to midgame pps

Which also makes no sense. . .MS2 sends 0 at bag 1, why didnt they stop the pc at bag 1?

pc into DPC there's 2 timings to stop it

[grand topaz]

opener mains not knowing what to do after the repeated 4 bag loops

just like how you see this in A rank going from 50 APM to 12 APM

[tired flame]

why do you assume that?

[grand topaz]

because they play enough matches that i see it

[wanton mulch]

I meant this feels like explaining a experience rather than giving a solid argument

[tired flame]

And im saying the same thing will happen regardless of bag

[wanton mulch]

okay...?

[tired flame]

What i see is the difference between someone who knows the boardstate after opener ends or not

if they can or can not stack a boardstate then, it's gonna be the same in the midgame

While you notice the ones who selfdestruct after opener, I wouldn't say that's the norm

It's just gonna be the same, stride 35 pieces in a preferred boardstate then midgame.

cause non 7 bag feels really discomforting

many will just ignore playing around with it and just move out of it asap.

[open lion]

Kinda feels like the ppl who want it are just better at it tho

[tired flame]

Reading through some of the messages in teh backlog

What I dont really seen mentioned is

you dont need opener knowledge to survive openers and go into midgame

Like afk and ds or setup a tsd/quad/3w and downstack is still very effective to do without knowing what openers are.

I still think start of a rounds is a huge burst pps check, even when dsing

and it's kinda why opener mains exists cause the other player fails the dsing and or burst pps dsing check

[open lion]

I’m pretty sure it’s just because it’s something harder to do so nobody really talks about it

[tired flame]

Its how i started TL though

no opener knowledge and just never noticed them

I noticed 4w and plonking tactics more

that's more on cheese being an issue(cause dsing skill overall is 💀) and stalling/plonking tactics are suppose to scare you

The only reason why I learned openers is cause I got bored

doing nothing and waiting, setting up a quad and waiting, setting up a tsd and waiting, setting up a 3w and waiting

wanted to be more proactive and not be predictable

It's still a valid tactic in where im at rn(23.9k-24k)

just cant spam it cause everything can be countered

[open lion]

Tbh there’s many ways to stop openers just they’re either hard to do or ppl don’t wanna do them for some reasons

[tired flame]

Well knowing some players who strength is in upstacking, and have overstacking and poor dsing through cheese issues. They really dont see any other option to stop opener mains

than trying to beat them with more upstacking

Hmm how to do ratios/percentage differences . . .

like 1.5 pps(with 2.5 pps burst) at the start can ds through 3pps openers easily

downstacking haves an easier burst pps check

during start of hte round is my point but not sure how to quantify it

[open lion]

Well if osk can make two leagues without being in pain he should try it for like a day or two to see how many ppl actually try it

[slender torrent]

nuh uh I can play in sunday

7+x on business days 🙏

[earnest socket]

;A;

let's make it thursday >:3

[open lion]

Every 3 am for 1 hour

[slender torrent]

NUH UH NUH UH

[earnest socket]

:3

[tired flame]

some meh examples

2 okay examples with huge caveats:

Made a plonkable board but then opponent either misdrops or I receive lucky garbage.

The point is even if they didnt misdrop and even if I got normal garbage rng, would have survived either way with having a plonkable setup.

These clips are clips cause it ended well, but in general it's not really that hard to ds at a slower pps over(still need some kind of burst) through openers and goto midgame.

I personally dont think opener counter knowledge whatever is needed until like U rank . . . which basically means you should be knowledgable abotu the game at that point

Some of us like to ds through openers intentionally. And personally why i dislike 7+x

Being forced to stride out of it is a disadvantage

The way how wacky 10 9 8 8 bag works makes plonking way too weak to consider

Also why i feel like dying to openers is either a skill check on burst pps or downstacking fail at the start of a round

And from looking at gameplay, basic dsing skill isn't really existent until around s+/ss rank

Which surprise surprise openers start becoming less relevant by u rank . . . Because people can basic ds properly.

Anyways this is just a bunch of yapping to suggest perhaps not 7+x but change garbage messiness to help with the apparent lack of downstacking skill in the game

There's not even a proper downstacking guide online, and most of the tech and skims are unnamed... Meanwhile openers and upstack spam is heavily focussed in most videos

Hence why i see many try to beat the start of the round with upstack vs upstack and never consider downstack as a viable counter, just an afterthought or something forced to do later on hence why opener focus is very prevalent

They don't know how to ds, how setup a basic dsable board or plonk even though it makes it easier on the burst pps check at the start of rounds

[fallow copper]

Do another loop!

[grand topaz]

increased garbage messiness buffs the blitz mains, because they don't need garbage in order to send infinite amounts of damage in minimal amount of time

[tired flame]

I said change as in decrease

Where by what i wrote implies increasing it 💀

[scenic slate]

thank you that was why i am so against it

[tired flame]

np, I just decided to write a long wall of text about this, cause it seems no one is talking about it

[scenic slate]

i think people did talk about not being able to send as much clean leads to much weaker counterspiked but not in detail

[tired flame]

It's more of them talking about how impossible it is to survive kill openers that you need pps

I still believe you need burst pps, but less overall pps with downstacking is somewhat easy to survive

meanwhile opener maining usually require pure burst for a huge amount of bags and no stopping

And then openers like TKI into freestyle spam , PCO upstack, MKO spam where tehy can maintain pps because they can actually stack teh board stack after the 1-2 bags, are never the issue even though they are way more scarier

than stickspin, sdpc

Yet somehow stickspin is "kill opener" MS2 is "kill opener" 😔

[grand topaz]

mfw sending attack in 7+X

[scenic slate]

personally think this is a good example of it not being as strong

[grand topaz]

if that's true, then it's a good thing

[scenic slate]

24 spike with 28 attack total means you had to do an awful lot of upstack before you spike

[tired flame]

1 screenshot doesnt tell me anything, I need video context not gonan imagine what they did.

[scenic slate]

fair if you just don't like being killed too early but it's usually just countering opener mains

[grand topaz]

tbf with 7+X you don't need to focus that hard on trying to counter

altho the truly blitz minded can still get through it sometimes, funnily enough

[scenic slate]

i just like to focus on countering but ok

[tired flame]

With 7+x you just stride 35 pieces then play

[grand topaz]

it gets silly when you need to counter a 3.8-4 pps opener from someone who falls to 2.2 pps after

[tired flame]

if they can do that they more likely 2.5-3pps midgame

generally opener pps is usually 1-1.5 pps diff from midgame

[scenic slate]

well yeah then when i counter out of the opener phrase i just kill ez win

if they can 4 pps opener i genuinely take that as their skill

[open lion]

7+x kinda makes striders the meta tho

rn you can still get away with a .5 pps dif

normally

[scenic slate]

yeah don't make it on one specific day of the week cuz some players that want it might not be able to play on that day/ some that don't want it might only be able to play on the day

[charred walrus]

more than that

[open lion]

just saying like U rank and things in X ppl can get away with more strats

[rugged spear]

7+x every 7+x days

[quick sapphire]

I couldn't imagine playing TL for one day a week.

[earnest socket]

that's why we gotta convince osk to have 7+x bag all the time

[open lion]

Let’s do coin toss whoever wins chooses the bag for the match

I ain’t getting forced to play 7x

[brazen pawn]

Alright

I choose….

One block!

Theres this one block randomiser that gives you the same piece no matter what

Oops wrong channel I thought I was in jstris🥲

Sorry

[brazen pawn]

If there was 7+3 I bet there would be pc spam everywhere

[open lion]

I mean I’d just prefer no change

[brazen pawn]

Me too

[open lion]

The main idea is openers but it’s pretty easy(usually) to counter openers with another opener or you can tank it and send to try to stop it most people though don’t want to learn an opener that deals big dmg so they die

[brazen pawn]

Oh btw I upranked

[brazen pawn]

Forgot to change my username

[brazen pawn]

Stacking>Opener

[open lion]

Stack so boring to me

[brazen pawn]

It’s so stale

[open lion]

It’s so stale to play the game

[brazen pawn]

7+x be like

I got an idea

What about

5x2 bag

I+O+T+L+S
I+O+T+J+Z

[open lion]

But tbh 7 bag was always the bag so ppl will have to learn a new bag even tho they thought it would stay forever

[brazen pawn]

Just a concept

[open lion]

I think you can still continue spdc after that

Just miss the first tss

[brazen pawn]

?

[open lion]

I mean with the bag I O T J Z

[brazen pawn]

Super popcorn dinosaur cake

Oh

[open lion]

Oh it’s another opener

[brazen pawn]

I could see potential for newer players

Line piece max drought is 9 instead of 13

But for pros

They can pc loop

[grand topaz]

unironically this

[grand topaz]

But tbh 7 bag was always the bag
tbf the only two major contenders where 1v1 VS is applicable were PPT/PPT2 and TE:C ZB, afaik in jstris you are fighting multiple people + it is niche

i think the general populace doesn't even realize that 7-bag is a thing they just get a sequence of random pieces

and then get utterly destroyed by someone who memorized 21-28 exact piece placements from an external wiki site that is by default unaffiliated with tetrio

[open lion]

I mean I can’t even like opener main other ppl I just randomly get 3 pcs in a row

[grand topaz]

ok but you get PCs in a row in 7+1 bag

i'm impressed by your vision ngl i was not expecting 7+1 to be so predictable

[open lion]

What’s 7+1

[mystic yoke]

smaller 7+x

[grand topaz]

you played in a lobby i hosted once with 7+1 bag + bomb-style garbage i saw you making PCs over and over

i was like, dang

[grand topaz]

it's when 7 bag and +1 random piece in each bag

[open lion]

only cause i found out about the bombs

[grand topaz]

bombs are very funny

[torpid acorn]

Do not like this. I think a rebalance of perfect clears to lower the power of opening plays (where 99% of PCs occur) would be a better course of action

Because 7+X bag doesn't just disrupt openers it disrupts the whole rhythm of the start of the game

even non-opener stacking strategies are impacted by it

The only fun/interesting thing it does is make the occasional 2 line PC possible which is fun but its so easy to spot that both players will do it rendering it pointless lol

and even that 2 line PC is 11 lines of garbage (if somehow both players dont negate each other)

[hushed oxide]

people have suggested this but what would you do to counter spike openers that dont rely on pcs

[loud hazel]

just counterspike them regularly as you do it now

[torpid acorn]

well i'll be honest the vast majority of the openers I battle against are PC openers

and in general I think PCs might just be too good

the reward for a PC is disporportioante to the rarity

they're rare midgame, sure but not at the beginning of a match and that's where they have the most influence

[open lion]

In my opinion if they’re no pc spamming you u can just tki them(maybe)

[cloud mesa]

time a cancel (tki works well for cancelling)

since when you cancel it cancels 2x the attack (you would cancel 8 lines then probably tank)

[atomic gorge]

most genuinely powerful openers rely on bag (stsd, stickspin, ms2/other tds, etc)

the one notable exception is 4w which is definitely a bit harder to fight if you dont know how to upstack

[grand topaz]

rebalancing PCs does nothing against extended-sdpc which is also extremely popular et unfortunately every rank

[grand topaz]

I recommend freestyle stacking either a shape or just up

[grand topaz]

tbh I do STSD 3w open quite a bit with 7+X but not always. It's not as bag reliant because it's a 3-wide with a L/J in the well + overhang (but you know this)

[atomic gorge]

stsd is hardly an opener since you're basically just building a midgame setup and filling in the stack

i go for that when i md openers on accident all the time

[grand topaz]

Yup

[quick sapphire]

I like just "Putting stuff wherever " That's got me to somehow so it must work to some extent.

I think that's why 7+X benefits me so well because I don't formulate a plan from the start. I just mindlessly put stuff in places and it just 'works'.

My playstyle isn't reliant on a specific piece requirement like 9-0 or a specific starting bag like 'Early '.

Just 🪽 it.

[daring moss]

fair but life isn't predetermined

Why must you live someone else's life when you can discover your own path?

[quick sapphire]

( Something I say when I see my family watching the soaps on TV but I digress )

[torpid acorn]

I'm SS and I really don't see this that often. I have seen it before but I don't see how nerfing PCs doesn't limit the power of this tactic either

[torpid acorn]

Like I said even if you don't rely on openers you still rely on the bag patterns and messing with the bags, even if it's just the early bags, messes with that too.

[open lion]

b ruh if u so annoyed by it literally just tiki theyre both loops

[torpid acorn]

you definitely don't need anything really fancy if you have the skills to adapt to changing circumstances, and trained sped and accuracy. I've still won games even at this point by just rapidly stacking and spamming quads with the occasional t spin thrown in, usually whenever garbage moves my hole.

There are many ways to approach the game and I don't think we should simply invalidate one because it's viewed as imbalance, my stance remains fix the imbalance instead of just saying "you can't do this anymore"

[open lion]

theres also no major dmg difference bc pcs are dead in that case

[torpid acorn]

also its going to be weird if you come from any Guideline stacker game where all this stuff is possible and then come here and discover everything you learned has been thrown out the window even though it's basically the same game

[grand topaz]

everything you learned has been thrown out the window
If all you've learned from a guideline game is how to place the initial 21 pieces then maybe it's for the best that the game lets you do something new

[grand topaz]

from sdpc-in-profile @loud hazel

[loud hazel]

real

openers ftw

[atomic gorge]

this might be worth another feature request post but given that @fossil charm said the following #1225191549881810965 message

would it really hurt to try small changes here and there rather than overhauling the bag system (not saying we shouldn't, but this is a lot more contentious than small changes)?

the most obvious change would probably be nerfing pc from 10 -> 8 or something of the sort

[loud hazel]

one of the things i really root for is that instead of a bag overhaul we implement tec zones or something like it

[winged tartan]

i mean that changes even more than 7+X doesn't it lol

[atomic gorge]

tec zone would be an enormous change lol

would actually turn the entire game on its head

[loud hazel]

okay not like actual tec zone but for the first couple of bags openers send pure clean

and then its back to normal

instead of nuking openers entirely

[grand topaz]

There are opener mains in TE:C who get the SDPC, just enough for a zone and do the DPC in zone; if you want to erase opener focus then that's the opposite of what you want

Actually they do honeycup which is basically ms2

[trail mesa]

honey cup is bad though

[loud hazel]

wait

i meant phases

not zones

[signal crypt]

having something like phase 3 in tetr.io would just be margin time but it feels like playing cheese race

👎

[loud hazel]

my proposal is a single phase at the start that makes any opener send pure clean

and then the game is back to normal

this will make openers even more easy to counterspike

[signal crypt]

same thing could be said with the opener being able to spike even harder

with enough rng

[grand topaz]

tbh that makes the initial blitz main send 20 lines of clean, so 5 i pieces, which effectively just guarantees kill instead

On the other hand, if we want tetrio to be a fully guideline experience, the rotation system could be made SRS, 180 spins can be removed, next queue will be 4, and all handling is fixed to 2 ARR, 10 DAS, 1.5 DCD and 10x SDF.

[grand topaz]

that would make sure that everything people learned in guideline would be exactly the same.

[lament elm]

A—Are we just trolling each other now...

[grand topaz]

I'm on the mountains so I thought it'll be funny

But objectively if you want guideline even further the 2 ARE and no more combo blocking. Suddenly it's just like PPT

But one of the best things about tetrio is that it's NOT fully guideline, so there's no reason to keep 7-bag as is just because it's guideline.

[loud hazel]

i do not want guideline even further

i just want openers to stay, even nerfed

theyre fun, actually

[cinder vapor]

Phases would hardly solve the opener issue and imo would make openers even more boring due to less counterplay being present

Cab's proposal of nerfing PCs a little would seem fine to me.

[grand topaz]

the problem is that they're so low-risk high-reward with simple/straightforward (literally put this piece here and there 100% of the time) that they destroy the gameplay at lower ranks

[grand topaz]

nerfing mid-game PC does nothing against extended-sdpc

I've seen an SS do MS2 DPC extended-sdpc-spin at this point I think all hope is lost

I would love to see what Doremy would do in a 7+X tournament

[grand topaz]

With 7-bag, at this point people might think openers are what this game is

[fallow copper]

[loud hazel]

wouldn't say they destroy the gameplay at lower ranks, watched my c rank friend play the game and all i see is people doing dt cannon mildly faster than they play and then its regular midgame at that level

however i only watched like 4 or so tl games from him

[loud hazel]

if this person wants to play this way, i dont see any problems with that, there is no objective "right" or "wrong" way to play tetris. there is opinions on it but thats what they are, opinions, they hold no objective value

[loud hazel]

quoting this video from this timestamp: "The game couldnt possibly capture a persons personality, if boring people did not have an avenue to be their boring selfs. It would not be self expression if everyone was forced to play cooler than they really were"
I know its about a completely different game but i think it really fits to this conversation
https://youtu.be/z8llYT7KGdI?t=27m41s

i think if a person decides to grind a certain playstyle we should allow them to do so, no matter what other people think of that playstyle

[dreamy talon]

The problem is not all openers, just the few that are game breaking

[grand topaz]

with 7+X, the game starts at regular midgame level, instead of the irregularity of the opener phase

[grand topaz]

interestingly the openers specifically make the people play "seemingly less boring than they are" (quoted words) because they're executing a solution step by step devised by someone else e.g stickmancomic for quick TR, while this algorithmic re-execution also making certain "more boring" strategies effectively obsolete - 9-0 stackers of the same speed as extended-sdpc-spin don't have nearly as much chance, thus the push towards "learning an opener" just to survive an opener, instead of letting you "play the game you normally would".

[grand topaz]

so what you quoted from the video actually highlights the problem of 7-bag and the lab/opener meta, instead of allowing people to play as they normally would without them (possibly 7+x allows this)

[grand topaz]

I also welcome a shake-up to the flat top tki LST x7