7+X-Bag in TL

[spiral vessel]

quite a lot of memory

[grand topaz]

and honestly even me in top 1.49% rn i don't like fighting opener mains it's stale

they do the same thing

[spiral vessel]

that is an objectively false statement

[grand topaz]

prove it

find me someone who says "i like losing to opener mains"

[tight harbor]

my openers are sub 2pps so openers definitely require skill too

[spiral vessel]

use your brain, thats how you prove it

[grand topaz]

in that case i will just ignore you

[tight harbor]

I like losing to opener mains

there you go

[tired flame]

You're the one making the assumption so it's up to you to prove

[spiral vessel]

pretty much

[quick sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-fine-gif-24177057

[lucid basin]

alternatively, ask whether every player below U rank faces opener mains

[spiral vessel]

lol yeah this thread is crazy

[lucid basin]

instead of being obtuse

[tight harbor]

like I would be at 4pps opener if openers don't require skill

[grand topaz]

that's an interesting question but i find based on the streams that they do

below S+ rank they don't know what is killing them

[spiral vessel]

honestly i never found opener mains to be as common as people make them out to be, i feel like its just sore losers who lose to openers a couple rounds in a row and then get super mad and decide to hate openers forever

[lucid basin]

I don't disagree, but especially at lower ranks, opener mains will be far less common

[quick sapphire]

I get that I'm not a mod but if you're just gonna argue with someone just block them / ignore them.

There is no need to explode into heated disagreements.

Chill...

[fallow copper]

this isn't that bad

[grand topaz]

so 83% of people actually don't know what they are losing to when they encounter an opener-main

[peak jasper]

Kinda sorta more lesrning and memorization

[cyan forge]

this is not a chatting channel

[fallow copper]

just looked it up

[cyan forge]

please stay on topic

[spiral vessel]

bro what is with the weirdly specific assumptions, this is just a weird statement, not very true?

lmao??

[cyan forge]

83% of people????

[tired flame]

just wondering when was it that you been below S+?

[spiral vessel]

many people DO know what they are losing to

[tight harbor]

that's just not true at all

[tired flame]

opener maining is way more common now

[grand topaz]

based on what osk said earlier about how the game was not meant to be about pattern repetition, the skills required by opener execution isn't what tetrio was meant to promote (?)

[peak jasper]

Yeah

[tough light]

one of the problems with opener mains are they are just too bad at midgames compared to their opener performance and people who has to counter it do not have fun struggling to cancel the garbages but opener mains still stay in lower ranks because they can't do anything when opener fails

[peak jasper]

Its in all ranks

Not D though and C

[quick sapphire]

🍿 anyone? Nobody is willing to listen to reason and people just want to vent. This benefits absolutely nobody and is just cluttering up potential actual feedback with useless heated disagreements.

[peak jasper]

B AND UP

[grand topaz]

dude i see people doing SDPC-spin in C+ rank

[spiral vessel]

aw its alright, i think the conversation is pretty interesting right now, and i like to hear other peoples viewpoints

[cyan forge]

we should add regret! and cool! back and tie them to attacks

[grand topaz]

they just misdrop into 4 apm

[tough light]

I don't think anyone is having fun with opener maining

[tired flame]

how would you feel about #1233972737576276040

[peak jasper]

I sorta am
Feels nice to learn solves

[grand topaz]

even when i win with opener i feel like i'm not winning

but at least i get TR i guess

[spiral vessel]

yeah

[fallow copper]

I think ms2 is pretty fun!

[tight harbor]

I guess if osk really want to make it that way then I have nothing to say

[quick sapphire]

It's not really viewpoints right now. It's just mindless ranting and s*** throwing. It's unproductive and helps nobody.

[cyan forge]

please stay on topic. if ninetales wants to comment on it he can do so in that thread

[cyan forge]

also true

[lucid basin]

I started playing about 2 years ago, which if memory serves is around when dpc became more well known. I have no memories of being overwhelmed by openers in general, maybe a few select players by the time I reached ss rank but I wouldn't be surprised if they have gotten more common as you say they have

[cyan forge]

once you say something, youve said your part i guess

[spiral vessel]

i see a lot of interesting stuff, its helping me get a better grasp of how the community views openers that i havent thought about before
certainly wouldnt just chalk it up to s*** throwing..

[lucid basin]

more common, but I'd still doubt that they're a very frequent thing

[grand topaz]

stickspin was the first horse of the apocalypse, and SDPC-spin is now "the meta" at every rank

even manaka_rei started doing sdpc-spin 🤔

[cyan forge]

anti-stickspin society was a thing for a reason

[tight harbor]

I think we should do feedback box ingame

[peak jasper]

Nah

[grand topaz]

it's unfortunate that anti-stickspin-society ended and SDPC-spin is "the accepted way to play" now, despite having exact same attack pattern

stickspin into 9-0 is still X-tier meta

[cyan forge]

no more ASS....

[rare sequoia]

without kill openers, the main point of the opener phase is to enter the midgame with an advantage, such as b2b and a clean stack

Doing this with 6-3/9-0 in 7+x doesn't yield the same returns for the same effort and the transition is spent trying to return to 7 bag which wastes time and feels worse

Having small tspin openers to make that transition smoother would even out the additional pieces and awkwardness of 7+x, helping the player experience out

"Needing to work hard" for setups is what the midgame is for, but if you have to spend the first 15 seconds working hard to start playing the game then that's just as bad as having kill openers

Sure you can build stsd or tsts early but that gets stale too and isn't as viable as 6-3 or combo stacking

[spiral vessel]

whos saying it's "the accepted way to play"? anyone can play any way they want lol

[cyan forge]

i never bothered to learn sdpc spin cause i can just stickspin lol

[quick sapphire]

I'd love to see a feedback button ingame. So people can post their views ( whichever side they're on ) and there isn't anyone else to argue or moan about a persons opinion.

[grand topaz]

it's the same thing tbf

[lucid basin]

you say that but I don't feel like sdpc-spin has that much of an impact on my games, I don't know sdpcspin and even if my opponent does it's rare that they'll exclusively use it as an opener

[grand topaz]

the resulting stack is diff

[cyan forge]

yea

[rare sequoia]

And Zhun is acting like sdpc is the only opener, keeping things like tki and MKO around is healthy for the game imo

[cyan forge]

sdpc-spin is not the meta at my rank btw (x)

[tired flame]

But the 🍿 😔

[grand topaz]

i remember a form for the passthrough vote changes

[cyan forge]

sdpc-spin is like nothing

[tired flame]

also cool to see other opinions

[grand topaz]

TKI flat top => LST i write it on the same board

[spiral vessel]

as an mko lover myself i agree with this

[grand topaz]

even tho it is "a little bit" more difficult to execute

it "looks the same" across all games

[lucid basin]

I feel like the situation people are discussing with opener mains is well out of proportion from my experiences and I don't know if they're exaggerating (whether intentionally or not) or if I'm exceptionally lucky that I haven't played versus more opener mains

[tired flame]

but to add to this i think osk addressed this

earlier

[grand topaz]

just like how ST stacking is hard, but it is still boring to watch in modern score attack

[tired flame]

about feedback comign back or not for this 7+x

[cyan forge]

tki counterspike/plonk is a LOT more effective

[tired flame]

or maybe it was someone else

[cyan forge]

at least in mid x rank

24.9k ish

[tired flame]

im not gonna scroll through 10k+ messages

[cyan forge]

but top rank will relearn regardless

[long palm]

its not that yet

[quick sapphire]

I absolutely dispise opener maining. I hate it with every fiber of my being.

With that said I have to respect it is a valid playstyle that people like to play.

I have tried to give a full personal review here #1225191549881810965 message

I really hope we get another chance to try it in future.

[spiral vessel]

it really isnt that common- i think its just that people tend to either, in their minds, exaggerate the amount of "opener mains" they actually meet, or they label anyone who dares to use a single opener as and opener main

[rare sequoia]

You can't remove lst from the game without majorly affecting everything else, it's a midgame technique as well

just like 4w

[grand topaz]

yes, but mid-game you can still do it after 35 pieces reliably

even in 7+X

[lucid basin]

thing is, though, in my experiences with 7+x, these sorts of loose and generalist openers still work quite well even if youn can build them less and are often unable to follow their exact continuations, like you won't get lst out of tki most of the time but you can take freestyle tspins out of it since it's just a good board state

[cyan forge]

also opener mains are literally a part of the game whether people like it or not

[grand topaz]

you just can't "easily open into it" every game

[spiral vessel]

yeah man! i feel the same way about 4widers lol

[grand topaz]

7+X exists to reduce opener maining

[cyan forge]

why not add 5m blast

yea thats why i dont really like 7+x bag

[spiral vessel]

unfortunately it completely removes any semblance of openers which is not good for the game in my opinion

[grand topaz]

so if 7+X was added as "the bag" then suddenly opener mains are no longer "literally part of the game" and we would have more fun playing.

[cyan forge]

i feel theres a way to shift the meta without completely eradicating the whole opener playerbase

[lucid basin]

see my above message for why I disagree #1225191549881810965 message

[peak jasper]

Ot balance it in a sort of way

[grand topaz]

they can just do something else that is not an opener repetition, like everyone else playing with 7+X bag

[cyan forge]

or... they can have a significant nerf and everyone can have fun?

[fallow copper]

Not sure but I will say in low elo it does suck when you just wanna 9/0 and just vibe but you get pco'd or something at start and you beat them everytime they can't solve at least thats how it was for me a month or 2 ago

[rare sequoia]

also bringing up score attack is irrelevant to the conversation because it's not tetra league

[cyan forge]

this is not a problem of skill

[grand topaz]

the best nerf is not forcing opener main counterstyle on people

[cyan forge]

this is a problem of playability and fun

[grand topaz]

it is.. playable

i played 7+X TL 19 sets

all of it was fun, even the losses

[fallow copper]

Fun is pretty subjective though

[cyan forge]

ok but like

[rare sequoia]

for you

[grand topaz]

no more 3.7 pps SDPC/DPC losses

[cyan forge]

that is YOUR opinion ONLY

[grand topaz]

well of course i had more fun, i don't rely on exact piece repetition between my games

[cyan forge]

sure. i had fun too, but what does that make of about ~15-25% of tetrio players?

youre just going to tell them to fuck off and die?

[grand topaz]

i'm U rank currently top 1.5% or something

[fallow copper]

If only we got statistics on the amount of fun 😔

[rare sequoia]

It's easy to advocate for something that benefits you while disregarding everyone it negatively affects

[cyan forge]

im 24870 tr

its not like your rank gives you any more say on game changes

[grand topaz]

youre just going to tell them to fuck off and die?
the irony is that by allowing opener-maining as a valid strateg, we're already telling 94% of player base to "fuck off and die" (your words)

SS and below typically lose to opener-mains

[spiral vessel]

from the opposing perspective though, your rival likely wants to vibe with pco but sometimes cant find a solve and gets beaten by your 9-0

[grand topaz]

U and above counter it, but personally i don't think it is particularly fun

i just hope i won to prove a point

instead of playing the game

[quick sapphire]

You gotta ask yourself. If you were an opener main and this change was added to the live game permanently. Would you continue playing?

Dedicating hours upon hours to getting openers like SDPC down to a T and then the whole thing is thrown out the window.

I really feel for opener mains and hope they don't outright leave the game if this is added but It really isn't fun to being the receiving end of 6 second rounds too because I didn't survive the opener.

[cyan forge]

yea so why not just nerf openers so that they are survivable instead of completely removing them

???

[lucid basin]

I still disagree that this is an accurate way to frame this, not every match will be against an opener main even if they are far more common than I think

[grand topaz]

opener mains complaining the game lasts more time than 6 seconds

[slender torrent]

Playing pokemon with only 1 type ingame would be fun for you

[spiral vessel]

kinda gotta feel bad for the opener makers too, i mean this is like what, a decade of progress just completely removed from tl?

[grand topaz]

Playing pokemon with only 1 type ingame would be fun for you
that is ironic from someone whose primary strat is 4 pps mech

and is complaining because you cannot reliably do it with 7+X

[cyan forge]

i mean if youre just going to completely categorize opener mains into this stereotype then i believe you shouldnt have a say in this

[peak jasper]

So right lets being this up

[fallow copper]

Vibing on that 60% is diabolical though

or whatever the % is

[peak jasper]

..?

[quick sapphire]

But in turn how would you nerf openers without buffing them?

If you for example nerfed the garbage sent all "clean" garbage is now cheese which is to some people more frustrating to deal with than being sent clean.

[cyan forge]

because whether you like it or not, a dominant meta will appear. it happens in every game

[hushed oxide]

they are infact a mech main

[spiral vessel]

bruh why did zhun block me

[grand topaz]

Niya uses 4 pps mech by default, AKA every bag placement for them is the same. All 7 piece placements every 7 piece placement are the same.

[rare sequoia]

Its not just opener mains, people use openers to transition smoothly to the midgame with a good stack and decent b2b as well, and for me that's a lot more fun than always stacking 6-3 or freestyling tst openers or stsds

[grand topaz]

so saying "you should use 1 type pokemon" is very ironic.

[peak jasper]

Ik
Their name was mech lol

[peak jasper]

Ik ive played againsr mech

[slender torrent]

well does that remove my option to opine??

[cyan forge]

alr but pokemon didnt just remove dragon type completely

[grand topaz]

they added fairy

[quick sapphire]

Doesn't matter. Just accept it and lets move on

[spiral vessel]

yes, this is a very valid point people should consider

[cyan forge]

exactly. why not just balance it out instead of completely removing it

[peak jasper]

^^^

[spiral vessel]

guess so 😭

[slender torrent]

I said before
7+x is like thworing ice, leaf and fire pokemons into a volcano

[charred walrus]

leaf type

[daring moss]

7+x-b is not doing allat 😭

[cyan forge]

there are two viable options here:

1. buff people not using openers to survive without a large disadvantage
2. nerf people using openers to not have a super giant advantage

[peak jasper]

I say for kill openers, they should be nerfed like a tad bit. For openers that are to transition into midgame (tki and mko), i say no nerf or buff is really needed.

[daring moss]

its just a huge nerf to the ice and leaf types

[lucid basin]

I'm going to reiterate my prior point that the base of flexible openers such as tki and mko are still able to be stacked some of the time meaning that you can use that as a foothold to start building b2b instead of just winging it

[slender torrent]

Nerf opener is more viable than removing it

[peak jasper]

^

[cyan forge]

like example: decreasing garbage cap at the start of the game and giving garbage clears MORE cancel power

[lucid basin]

I swear almost nobody tried those openers for themselves for an extended period and it's honestly a bit of a shame

[quick sapphire]

Not all openers are killed by this change. Just "kill" openers. You still have opportunities to do openers like TKI and mko.

[slender torrent]

that would be cool

[rare sequoia]

Some of the time, whereas the majority you start with IITTOSZ

[cyan forge]

so that opener mains can still play the game, but if they only focus on openers, they will be heavily disadvantaged when the game balances out

[slender torrent]

I cant last

[charred walrus]

speedcap first 14 pieces 👍👍

[spiral vessel]

mko is pretty bag-reliant, i havent been able to do a proper one yet

[lucid basin]

in extreme circumstances you will have to improvise, I don't deny that

[cyan forge]

its like how STOP 4-WIDING in jstris is just a bandaid solution

[quick sapphire]

I mko'd a few times during 7+X but that's probably because MKO is my primary opener.

[charred walrus]

ATTACKING YOURSELF!

[lucid basin]

if you know the core shape of mko it's not that rare to be able to build it, you just need to be okay with, for example, wasting 2 ts for one of the sides

at least for the first bag

[spiral vessel]

honestly i think that removing openers altogether is really silly

[rare sequoia]

And just being able to use something that resembles tki is not what I'm advocating for, I'm advocating for reliable tspin openers similar to those being usable consistently so people can comfortably get into the midgame

An example would be spreading out the x pieces in the bag or just considering another option that only nerfs kill openers

[spiral vessel]

hmm yeah thats true

[lucid basin]

I can tell

[quick sapphire]

This change wouldn't remove openers all together.

[peak jasper]

Some other openers are still sorta reliable. Like pco

[spiral vessel]

yeah i'll stop saying that actually

[rare sequoia]

7+x? It pretty much does remove openers

[lucid basin]

1st pc as a whole is pretty fine I think

[spiral vessel]

more like removing most openers

[peak jasper]

But you canr just REMOVE an entire opener

[lucid basin]

there are only complications for 2nd and beyond

[quick sapphire]

I did my first ever 2 line PCO in 7+X. I wish you could have heard me scream IRL. I was buzzing!

[peak jasper]

HAHA

[spiral vessel]

yeah

first bag 2l is kinda funny

[peak jasper]

Did u squeal

[slender torrent]

What if someone is so pro in Cheese race, that he does 4wide to have the perfect boardstate to them

[long palm]

2l pcs are a different thing all together when it comes to opener

[slender torrent]

[long palm]

its kinda just rng

[peak jasper]

2l IS rng

[quick sapphire]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696095920248455229/1234272085639954432/image.png?ex=66317274&is=663020f4&hm=f19564da1c1ddc6273d68d4531e3c2f7a79eb7ed40206dd78d05ff91ffcdaf8e&

[slender torrent]

2l pc is finesse battle change my mind

[slender torrent]

ok maybe a bit of looking queue too

mind changed

[grand topaz]

2L PC start in 7+X is very fun

[slender torrent]

meching 4pps is also very fun

[grand topaz]

ultra moment

[quick sapphire]

For the person doing it maybe 🙂

[spiral vessel]

lol

[grand topaz]

honestly i like the free TR from the mindless mech but it's kind of silly

[slender torrent]

no and I have arguments

[rigid zenith]

what i've learned from 7+x bag is that x ranks' opinions weighs way less than lower ranks since x ranks have the fundamentals and the knowledge to counter openers unlike lower ranks where they do not have enough experiences

[slender torrent]

Misdrops exists

[spiral vessel]

its not really free tr, the opponent will either be good enough to make good use of the clean and counterspike you, or not

[rare sequoia]

X ranks have also invested the most time into the game while new players aren't guaranteed to stick around

weighing one over the other isn't a good idea imo

[quick sapphire]

are the ones who are most capable of building cleanly regardless of the queue. That's the biggest pro side of being

[daring moss]

when is 7-x going to be over?

[peak jasper]

Biggest what side if being X

[daring moss]

Is 7-x permanent?

[quick sapphire]

It is over.

[barren lava]

next year

[daring moss]

dang it!

[barren lava]

Sorry!

[slender torrent]

I didnt see any D rank complaining aswell

[quick sapphire]

You can still do 7+X in custom lobbies but not in TL.

[spiral vessel]

u can try in custom game

[grand topaz]

last time i won 7-2 in like 3 minutes for the whole set tho

[peak jasper]

Bo openers in D rank and they have no idea what 7 bag is

[slender torrent]

and my friend on S+ who took 4 games to notice the difference

[grand topaz]

i hope it comes back forever

[spiral vessel]

ur opponent must not have been good enough to make good use of the clean and counterspike you

[slender torrent]

the thread maybe

[quick sapphire]

don't complain about anything. They just have fun ( Which lets be honest ... is the most important part for them. )

They don't care about meta.

[atomic gorge]

i would still change 7-x to not mess with T parity but i think that it's definitely a workshoppable idea

[rigid zenith]

which is why it's hard for me to say whether or not i support or against 7+x and mainly lurk in this long ass thread

[grand topaz]

yeah openers even in C- rank, people just learn the 28 piece placement and then "oh i am supposed to win now".

[atomic gorge]

at the very least i don't want this to just die out

[peak jasper]

No matter what this thing is entirely new and fun to experiment with

Even if ur an opener main or not

[grand topaz]

finally it's not piece repetition for the first 35 pieces

[quick sapphire]

We can all agree though that we need a longer testing period.

[peak jasper]

Def
I played 2 games

[rare sequoia]

It affects higher ranks just as much as it affects lower ranks, just in other ways

[quick sapphire]

I played maybe 12 games ( I was working for the majority of the day )

[lucid basin]

I'd like to bring up something which I haven't seen addressed yet - the transition into midgame with 7bag is much cleaner than with 7+x, unless both players are efficient attackers someone is likely to end up leaning into cheese which slows the game's pace down a ton and unless one player has a dominant playstyle which controls the flow of the game, can lead into a slower-paced and cheesier midgame than the midgames that you get with 7bag (since it's likely both players will be sending large amounts of clean). I think that is a pretty impactful change which can drastically alter the flow of the game.

[rare sequoia]

I have been trying to bring up points about the flow of the game

[lucid basin]

that's great, can you tell me some?

[tired flame]

This got mentioned a few times, but yeah nothiing really discussed other than its been changed and some people dislike

[slender torrent]

Well you mean the great part of them

maybe 0.1% are competitive but its just starting

[quick sapphire]

I'd wager the vast majority in play for fun more than anything.

[grand topaz]

what i really did find funny in this discussion is that plenty people said they find everyday midgame "stale" except top-rank play where they do "cool t-spins", but we could get those if openers didn't dominate the game

[rare sequoia]

Here and my other messages if you can search, I can't comb through everything right now on mobile @lucid basin but others have also brought the flow of the game up as well

[lucid basin]

thanks, I'll give them a read

[grand topaz]

the change to the flow of game made the game less stressful imo

[rare sequoia]

There are different points on the skill ladder for a reason, people won't immediately become top level when openers aren't a thing

[barren lava]

from: winterfrost45 in: feature·request

[peak jasper]

Dosent high X gameplay start with some opener

[tough light]

yeah i think lack of openers did not make a game cheesy but just revealing what is remaining without opener

[quick sapphire]

If you're a regular midgame player ( not opener main ) you're typically gonna know how your transition to "midgame" is gonna go.

[tough light]

its still quite possible to get clean garbage midgame

its just not as fast as openers

[rare sequoia]

Without openers the games also last quite long in X so there'll need to be a solution to that, maybe reducing the ft

[quick sapphire]

FT3 -
FT4 -
FT5 -

[tough light]

that can be discussed later if the game feels too long

[spiral vessel]

its not as fun for me because there is no big early-game spikes, i am already in "midgame" and the hardest thing is just deciding wtf i do with these 3 z pieces

[lucid basin]

please no I like my ft7s

[grand topaz]

immediate transition to mid-game, skipping the "piece repetition" section that you "need to guard" to not lose in 10 seconds

[rare sequoia]

It is not an immediate transition to midgame, you need to build up resources and get the stack to a good equilibrium after the extra bag

and you need to build up b2b

if anything it makes the opener phase longer and more exhausting

[quick sapphire]

Would you still like FT7's if they lasted as long as some of my FT5's?

[lucid basin]

probably?

I don't think I mind sets being long

[tired flame]

had longer ft5s and ft7s than that so

[lucid basin]

in fact now that I think about it sets being long benefits me because my mechanics are bad and I misdrop a lot

[peak jasper]

Ft9

[fallow copper]

yes

[tired flame]

wasn't there an mmc thread about wanting x ranks to be ft11

[fallow copper]

ft15

[rare sequoia]

It benefits the cheesier and more defensive players because it's harder to get them out before they get into their flow, since their opponent won't have ways to send enough for the first 20-30 seconds

[tired flame]

i feel like long sets duration-wise is cause both sides lack upstack power and not entirely related to 7+x, except it will happen more often

[lucid basin]

yeah, I don't remember the broad consensus though

[quick sapphire]

playing potentially 29 rounds without break would "break" me...

[fallow copper]

Stamina management time

jk

I play rhythm games so I can't relate I won't lie

vrsg to be specific

[daring moss]

ft 15 is crazy

[fallow copper]

[rare sequoia]

Longer x rank sets is a terrible idea, you already earn abysmally low amounts of tr and can lose 3 wins of progress in 1 loss, it would be an endless slog for nothing

[tired flame]

don't lie to yourself, you immediately queue after every match. I need atleast a 5+ minute break 💀

[fallow copper]

Won't lie I just wanna see how much the speed decreases per round because of it LMFAO

[daring moss]

i thought ft3 was already crazy 😭

[lucid basin]

agreed, it's harder to make an attack in the first few bags so you can't set an aggressive pace without already being exceptionally good at attacking

[fallow copper]

Why don't they just up the Tr cap

[quick sapphire]

Being in queue =/= playing. The "queue" part is still a break.

[fallow copper]

aren't people in X rank capped at 24999 or whatever anyways

new rank angle? 😳

[lucid basin]

I fail to see how that would change anything

[fallow copper]

bigger numbers cooler

[rare sequoia]

Not only that, but that also means you won't have as much b2b built up to cancel or put pressure on them while they cheese or counterspike

[lucid basin]

fair

[fallow copper]

also do they have anything to do at 24999 anyways

[long palm]

No real meaning though, glicko exists

[fallow copper]

I feel like once you hit that there's no funny grind to do

unles you love tetris

[lucid basin]

and if you do have good b2b you probably don't have a safe boardstate because you greeded for it

[quick sapphire]

I legit feel like the only person that isn't really frustrated with dealing with cheese. It just gives me some nice opportunities to get some nice downstack spikes.

[fallow copper]

Z rank would be pretty wild

[long palm]

Cheese is… becoming more fun for me

[rare sequoia]

This seems like it's getting a little off topic ...

[lucid basin]

I'm not innately, it's just that I prefer a faster pace against offensive players and cheese is opposed to that

[lucid basin]

yeah

[warm galleon]

Cheese is more fun than watching your opponent start every game idle waiting for you to send garbage before they decide to play

[fallow copper]

Ngl people that wait to accept garbage

are so lame.

I mean instead of doing literally anything early*

[mortal scroll]

send a tss

[quick sapphire]

Discussing cheese levels isn't going off topic because it's 7+X that's causing said cheese that we are discussing.

[rare sequoia]

That's a valid play style even if it's frustrating, removing everything you don't like your opponents doing is how you ruin the fun of a game

There is no "correct" way to play

[lucid basin]

So, my personal conclusion on 7+x is that it's neither strictly better nor worse, it is slower paced which I dislike but has a more involved and diverse opener phase which I like. I couldn't tell you whether I'd get bored of it quickly if it stayed but I am open to testing it further

[grand topaz]

i just got 1.92 pps 120 APM 226 VS in a 7+X game lmao

[lucid basin]

just felt like putting an overall conclusion

[tired flame]

Real question is what's more fun, getting cheesed to death or openered

I dont think cheese is an issue at higher ranks at all cause b2b is way better and minimalizes it

[rugged spear]

i just think the bag system creates more problems than it solves

[grand topaz]

i just sent 32 lines in a single spike in 7+X ? ?

what cheese

[rare sequoia]

But the problem is this nerfs that way to minimalize it

[lucid basin]

that's a unique perspective which I'd love to hear more about

[fallow copper]

Being rewarded for afk'ing is wild

[rugged spear]

1. death queues, what is anyone going to do with sszztt queue

[tough light]

Is it just me feeling like people who complain about "slower opener phase" are just too used to opener's attack speed

[rare sequoia]

It's a play style, be smarter about how and when you send and you won't be punished as hard

[tough light]

building from zero starting up the first attack and thats when midgame begins i guess

[peak jasper]

That's a playstyle though
Plonking

[fallow copper]

I meant early only

like at start

[peak jasper]

Still a playstyle

[rugged spear]

2. t piece positions are massively unpredictable, makes sending attack early really rmg dependent

[lucid basin]

I do not understand what you mean

[tough light]

why should transision to the midgame be that fast

[quick sapphire]

Getting cheesed because I don't flinch at the prospect of returning to sender all that wonderful downstackable cheese.

[lucid basin]

but it's normally not that fast in 7bag? most openers have at least 3 bags worth of theory

[rare sequoia]

Because you're not doing anything in the opener phase if you remove kill openers, so the opener phase should be faster so you can actually play the game

[open lion]

whats the matter with dying being fast or not

[warm galleon]

A playstyle that sucks the fun out of the room

[quick sapphire]

Wait. There is people that think plonking sucks the fun out of the room?

[peak jasper]

☹️

[rare sequoia]

people want to be able to play the game and put up a resistance without losing in 5 seconds

[peak jasper]

☹️

[quick sapphire]

Please delete this.

[warm galleon]

I'm referring to people who afk until they receive garbage to start playing

[mental storm]

i think extra pieces should only be added in the middles of bags to prevent doubled starts and 3-floods

[quick sapphire]

That's one of my play styles.

[peak jasper]

Same

[lucid basin]

@rugged spear I agree that point 1 though rare is a very nasty side-effect, but 2 can be mitigated if you're ok with wasting one t at the start of the match, though yes you often don't have the information to determine how good of an idea that actually is

[quick sapphire]

It is just as much a viable strat to do nothing and wait for incoming garbage than it is to just upstack 6-3 or whatever.

[fallow copper]

Yeah, lame.

[rare sequoia]

Playstyles add variety and challenge in unique ways

[dire osprey]

just learn c4w or funnel spike to start

[peak jasper]

Whats your idea of not lame

[fallow copper]

Playing the game!

[peak jasper]

Thats playing the game though

[open lion]

i agree literally if they do that and u hate it just instakill them

[grand topaz]

cheese the people who wait

[fallow copper]

Unrelated topic steam won't open

[rugged spear]

is it really that rare though? there are other queues that are just impossible to determine what to do because you don't know where the t pieces are

[rare sequoia]

this is a thread about 7+x

[fallow copper]

not touching ur keyboard does not sound like playing the game

[rugged spear]

it's a unique change in pace but in the long run it'll become more stale than 7bag opener gameplay (opinion)

[peak jasper]

If you want we could discuss this more in #tetrio·general

[grand topaz]

it is more strategic than executing memorized piece placements

[mental storm]

glove wearers in shambles
controller players in shambles

[rare sequoia]

agreed, I think openers in some form even if they're small tsd openers are healthy for the game

[grand topaz]

i don't see it, openers turn the game into "starting the same way" but like, globally across all ranks every game

[rare sequoia]

Openers do more than just killspike

[mental storm]

openers that send a single digit number of lines are chill imo

[rare sequoia]

How is 6-3 not opening the game the same way

[rugged spear]

yeah

[rare sequoia]

Zhun you aren't considering that other openers besides sdpc exist

[grand topaz]

who said you need to 6-3 in 7+X 🤔

[dire osprey]

i agree, it’s buried under hundreds of messages now but i posted earlier saying that deleting an overpowered option from the game instead of balancing around it is going to be unhealthy in the long run

[warm galleon]

It sounds good until you start building a c4w and then they start dropping pcs before you are able to send them a line

[rugged spear]

it's just gonna end up in 7pps stride battle at the start

[lucid basin]

Though you don't know in advance when the extra t piece comes, you can still waste it when it does if you think trying to accomodate it is too risky

[rare sequoia]

Who said you need to sdpc in TL?

[peak jasper]

Such a counter to other openers. Especially pc ones

[grand topaz]

i mean there's also stickspin and MS2 and BT/C-spin and DT/C-spin

[grand topaz]

the few people here who said the game needs to have openers for variety earlier

[rare sequoia]

You are joking if you think DT is a problem. I use DT/TKI/PCO (no PC just upstack) and STD and I've made it to 24.9k

[grand topaz]

only at lower ranks

[rugged spear]

just the fact that if you get t piece first, then get t piece last second bag there's a whopping 9 + 8 = 17 pieces between t pieces

the fact that this can happen is crazy

[open lion]

but tbh those openers are ez to learn

[lucid basin]

ok yeah that's quite rough

[mental storm]

dt as a kill opener is low elo cheese trash but it technically exists

[fallow copper]

dt is okay

[grand topaz]

very popular in S+ to do DT => kaidan => PC (aka new DT loop)

[rare sequoia]

And yes openers provide variety for those who find upstacking the same way every game to be boring, such as myself. If they don't kill, what's the problem with using them to only set up for midgame, just like 6-3?

[lucid basin]

also note he said dt-cspin which is significantly more threatening than vanilla dt

[grand topaz]

that they make the game miserable for everyone below, uh, apparently X rank

[rare sequoia]

DT cspin is also unreliable

[spiral vessel]

pc is pretty rare in that, and it takes forever, if you die to that, then you need to get a little faster and better at counterspiking

[lucid basin]

this is true

[spiral vessel]

no they dont 😭 you cant just speak for literally every non-x rank player

[grand topaz]

i mean i know how to counter an opener i just don't like doing it

7+X was a lot more fun for me

[rare sequoia]

Did you read what I said about non kill openers? Such as tki or MKO?

[spiral vessel]

then.. thats literally a you problem, if you know exactly how to not die to something and choose to make yourself vulnerable anyways

[rugged spear]

7+x was a fun thing but i think it has flaws that could be addressed with a better system

[peak jasper]

Aint u still blocked

[spiral vessel]

99% of discord users read blocked messages anyways

[grand topaz]

i'm curious if 7+X appended would retain the "LST follow-up" because that's also very same-y across games

[rugged spear]

it doesn't

simply becaus eou can get t pieces

[peak jasper]

Oh well no ones blocked me so idk how that goes
And vice versa

[spiral vessel]

nice!

[grand topaz]

7+X appended might also be fun. I'd have to see it to know it

[lucid basin]

you know, there should be some sort of survey to find whether most people are actually annoyed by opener mains because until then you're going to stand by this and people opposing you are going to criticise you for saying it

[open lion]

what appended

[rare sequoia]

LST is a non issue in lower ranks, and in the ranks people are able use it they've earned it because lst is a difficult stacking method to use and doesnt kill unless your opponent just sits there

[dire osprey]

i think this statement explains the opener problem the game has at the moment quite well.

It’s not that there isn’t counterplay, it’s just that the counterplay is not fun, unrewarding and too often too tight to pull off correctly

[spiral vessel]

yeah, an in-game survey type thing would be nice

[grand topaz]

there's an idea that 7bag => 3 extra piece => 7 bag => 2 extra piece => 7 bag => 1 extra piece => 7bag => 1 extra piece, instead of interleaving the 5th bag into them entirely

[open lion]

oh

[lucid basin]

I can attest to this, I have reached double digit b2b with lst from opener and either not killed with it or died myself

[mystic yoke]

that's true, LST in lower ranks dies after like 3 tsds, scaling up to like 6 in U rank

[rare sequoia]

I am more into the idea of 7+x appended than 7+x

[spiral vessel]

same

[peak jasper]

Same

[tired flame]

or just the first bag is appended rest is how it is

[mystic yoke]

time for double first PC spam

[spiral vessel]

if anything its less dry and unforgiving

[mystic yoke]

7+3, 7+2 is it? lel

[rare sequoia]

Zhun ignores what I say about non kill openers being cool and puts all openers into the sdpc category which is a little frustrating

[lucid basin]

it does take away a considerable part of the additional challenge in opener stacking while still making rigid openers unreliable

[mystic yoke]

zhun categorizes any tsd conts as pattern stacking so

[rare sequoia]

Yeah

[open lion]

isnt it not tho

[mystic yoke]

it isnt

[spiral vessel]

zhun is probably gonna wind up blocking everyone who likes openers at this rate

[dire osprey]

7+x appended is better but i think it’s still an awkward fix

[mystic yoke]

it's actually quite hard to choose the correct cont for TKI

some players wont let you do LST in full

diao aside

[rare sequoia]

Diao can get away with using among us on a top 100

[lucid basin]

probably

[spiral vessel]

😔

[mystic yoke]

that's true

[spiral vessel]

wait

oh nvm

hey

what if board height was raised in the beginning of the game, and then slowly lowers down to 20

does that sounds way too gimmicky

[cyan forge]

yea

[long palm]

yeah

[mental storm]

yes lmao

[tired flame]

That buffs lst starts

[cyan forge]

omg slowmode!!!!!!! yayyyyyyyyy

[spiral vessel]

lol

[mystic yoke]

sounds like a forfun mode

or an april fool's QP lol

[spiral vessel]

how do you guys feel about a negative damage multi in the beginning

[spiral vessel]

lmao yeah ur right

[cyan forge]

ATTACKING YOURSELF

that is a stupid idea

[spiral vessel]

no like a 0.5 damage 💀

[rare sequoia]

"the midgame should be difficult to get into" is something I completely disagree with because that's the same thing he's against with opener mains, having a few tsds to get started only helps the player experience l

[long palm]

free clean to self

[cyan forge]

yea thats not negative buddy 💀

[spiral vessel]

ok bro 💀

[cyan forge]

lol

[mystic yoke]

I thought about "multipliers affect base dmg only" instead of including b2b

[spiral vessel]

ngl osk should just release charsys rn it would solve everything frfr

[spiral vessel]

oh thats very interesting, i would like that

[cyan forge]

No.

yea thats what ive been saying, but it could also lead to an imbalanced power shift over to pattern stacking/mech

[spiral vessel]

like a nerf to b2b in the early game

[cyan forge]

so maybe not

[spiral vessel]

oh i read it wrong

↔️

[mystic yoke]

it's hard cos midgame b2b might even be weak for low ranks

but dmg in opener is high

[spiral vessel]

mm

[spiral vessel]

oh yeah

[mystic yoke]

that's already QP implemented

[cyan forge]

yea so why not just add to tl

[rare sequoia]

Nerfing b2b indirectly buffs cheese though since it's harder to cancel

[mystic yoke]

I dont think that's a TL-viable mechanic

[cyan forge]

why not

i think its more viable than 7+x, at least

[rugged spear]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1229920026258313307

[cyan forge]

and it was also a quick example so idk

[rugged spear]

they need to fix this before that for sure

[cyan forge]

garbage cap, not garbage speed

[rugged spear]

yes

its a garbage cap related issue

[spiral vessel]

dang

[cyan forge]

well idk thats besides the point, its going to get fixed regardless

[rugged spear]

but yeah i'm interested to see how it'll play out

[cyan forge]

it still works, no?

[rugged spear]

well, lower garbage cap means a larger amount of garbage spawning in the same column

because of the behaviour shown in that thread

[cyan forge]

disregarding that bug

are u fr

[rugged spear]

ye, if that bug wsan't there it could work but we can't test it because it's still the case right now no?

[cyan forge]

well im just saying its an idea

so why not just put it out there, just like how manipulating board height in the middle of games is NOT implemented yet but was still an idea

[rugged spear]

interestingly, the average number of pieces between the first 2 t pieces is 6

[spiral vessel]

i think its a very interesting idea

i would be way more open to that, i would probably like that a lot actually

[mystic yoke]

increased defense in earlygame?

[spiral vessel]

rather than 7+x

[cyan forge]

yea

but like everything theres probably a way of abuse

either way, its probably one of the most ~vanilla~ options out there

[mystic yoke]

sounds like extended sdpcspin

[rugged spear]

i think b2b upstacking gets a decent buff there simply because u dont tank enough to die, or u cancel everything

[cyan forge]

i mean yea anything regarding time/pieces are going to have to be tweaked cause everyones experience is different

[mystic yoke]

that really really buffs striding

[rugged spear]

but i'd need to play it to see

[dire osprey]

thoughts on some of these 7+x alternatives while it’s on topic?

#1225191549881810965 message

[spiral vessel]

they are probably all better than what we saw tbh

[mystic yoke]

well idk if this is a problem

it's not a bad idea but it has alot of effects other than opener

[dire osprey]

some ideas to get the ball rolling:

• both players start with two lines of clean garbage (even parity so pc's are still possible, but more difficult)
• both players start with 4 lines of clean garbage that are wounded for 10s
• all attacks are 1/2'ed and passthrough for the first 5 secs (reason: passthrough to enable stopping pc loops, 1/2 attack so the pc looper can't just speed diff you)
• pc's are nerfed to 6 lines
• attacks start at 1/2x and scale to 1x by 10 secs
• any kind of similarly *reverse ramping LCD (though i imagine you guys don't want to touch this parameter until charsys comes out)

[cyan forge]

the reason why i say no decreasing actual damage is because it can lead to a lot of cheese which can be annoying

because 2 clean is much more annoying to deal with than 4 clean

[rugged spear]

also, time based multipliers just make it non existent in lower ranks and more noticeable at higher ranks right

[cyan forge]

yeah

[dire osprey]

yup thats the idea

[quick sapphire]

I got a great idea. What if * waves hand for you to come closer * Everyone started with a single block of garbage.

Not a line. A single mino of garbage. Starting at a random position on the bottom line?

[mystic yoke]

sounds bad

[cyan forge]

yea thats one more i said too

but it could also be openered easily

[rugged spear]

but higher ranks are already mostly unaffected by openers, and lower ranks tend to be affected by it more

[cyan forge]

so maybe bottom 2 rows?

[spiral vessel]

feels gimmicky

like you are playing charsys

and its your opponents passive ability

or something like that

[lucid basin]

feels like it would be annoying to play around and just get in the way

[cyan forge]

7+x also kinda gimmicky

[dire osprey]

could change it to bag oriented then

[mystic yoke]

is tetrio far away from needing
High Elo balancing vs Low Elo balancing?

[cyan forge]

but i could play 1mino garbage start

[quick sapphire]

That's ok. I wasn't really serious about it I just felt like lightening the mood. People seem so aggressive and unwilling to accept other peoples views lately that I just wanted to put a smile on someones face or something. .

[cyan forge]

troll idea: add back 5m blast cool + regret and tie that to garbage output

[lucid basin]

ha

that would be pretty funny

[spiral vessel]

ah! i understand now
thank you for the kindness!

[cyan forge]

i would lowkey play that though

[spiral vessel]

i think it would be very interesting to try

[quick sapphire]

I'd play absolutely any bag / garbage system that varies from standard 7 bag.

[cyan forge]

5MLeague

[quick sapphire]

Variety is the spice of life!

[charred walrus]

how about: jstris attack table for first 20 seconds

[cyan forge]

pairs 💀

[cyan forge]

https://tenor.com/view/tetris-puyo-puyo-tetris-four-wide-gif-26038253

[quick sapphire]

Hell. I'd play "complete chaos".

[lucid basin]

I swear one of the quickplay april fools gimmicks was one mino of unclearable garbage

[spiral vessel]

i really want a setting in custom games where you can have inverted garbage.. i think it would be very interesting

[spiral vessel]

hey lets put that in league!!

[cyan forge]

yea

[long palm]

jstris has that

[lucid basin]

oh yeah

[spiral vessel]

yeah its kinda cursed but also fun lol

[cyan forge]

lowkey 0 downstackj. just buff opener mains

[lucid basin]

make it so that downstacking is impossible, the perfect change!

[quick sapphire]

It was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUC-hCW7Wc

[neat pagoda]

How about 5 alternating blocks on the first line and it's random whether it starts on the first or second?

[charred walrus]

start with 1 random mino on the first or second row

[lucid basin]

how about ten ;)

[charred walrus]

actually yeah 5 so people dont memorize 20 openers

[mystic yoke]

7+x is one thing, what about a onetime 14bag

[neat pagoda]

Then every game starts with a single I guess.

[cyan forge]

man that video makes me miss rainbow garbage

[mystic yoke]

rainbow garbage is difficult to implement cos it shows size of garbage now

but i really really liked it

[cyan forge]

yea

[cyan forge]

7+x? sdpc? what are you talking about?
come on, let's go play tetra league and abuse passthrough!

[mystic yoke]

funny you say that

[signal crypt]

just go back to the inf ds era

[mystic yoke]

i look back at old tourneys on full PT and it's completely disgusting

[cyan forge]

yeah lol

[mystic yoke]

i have nostalgia only for storylines

[mystic yoke]

time to go back to bt cannon 🏃‍♀️

[cyan forge]

dt cannon main..

[unreal sky]

return to korean stack

[golden drum]

So uh, a while back I made openers for this exact situation since it was brought up in the opener server I'm in lmao

I'm normal I swear

[rare sequoia]

Iris, right?

[golden drum]

Ya

[grand topaz]

stickspin was winning in 5mil blast

[cyan forge]

alright bro you just had to ruin the joke

[rare sequoia]

Wasn't that before it was patched

then it was one of kerr's openers

[charred walrus]

tspin mini double my goat

[sharp condor]

yea stickspin wasn't that good in 5mil blast

[grand topaz]

variety called

[grand topaz]

i only know TSM-double with neo-tsd

[sharp condor]

one sample size 😭

i can send a screenshot of 2 players doing 6-3 in 7+x and say that's "variety" too

[rare sequoia]

the random screenshots don't really do much

[bold citrus]

Different situations

• Established 3+ years of TL
• 24 hours of testing players figuring out what to do if they get their tools taken away

[rare sequoia]

one sample size

And what does it prove that we don't already know

[slender torrent]

lol

tsd quad end

wait tsd was in the other game nvm

only quad gamming

[primal gale]

you know shit got real when a slowmode gets added

[open lion]

i also agree that ppl have learned the bag for like 3 years or more or less but bassically half the stuff learned became useless

[onyx reef]

using cheezwizz as an example of this is really ironic seeing as hes an lst main 💀

just use like ellie vs neko or something lol

[rare crystal]

we love slomod

[quick sapphire]

It's 5 seconds. Not the end of the world.

[long palm]

yeah, unless you like spamming people with malding about 7+X

[blazing acorn]

Is there a recap of the conversation around 7+X Bag? I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to backread some 9000 messages lol

[long palm]

not really, its a lot of topics

[quick sapphire]

Generally the conversation topics were 'potentially'

• Kills opener mains
• Ruins the clean transition into "midgame"
• Creates more diversity in the "opening" phase due to more variety in early bags.
• Creates new openers such as potential 2 line PC
• Forces people to completely rethink piece placements due to things like double early T
• 7+X stops matches being "blitz or die".
• Not long enough testing period in TL.

[rare sequoia]

mm idk about that

[sharp condor]

don't agree with a lot of these points

[quick sapphire]

I never said anyone agreed with anything. I was just summarizing the past conversations.

[sharp condor]

I don't think there's more diversity in opening phase, actually I think theres less

idk it felt like to me like you're stating this recap as factual conclusions

[quick sapphire]

Better?

[rare sequoia]

Not exactly a recap and more of a what does ninetails thinks 7+x does

[quick sapphire]

It has nothing to do with me or my opinion. It was just a recap of the conversations I've seen in this thread.

Different peoples thoughts and opinions.

I certainly don't agree with all of it but I've stated my personal opinion multiple times already and nothing will be gained by repeating myself.

There is defo more bullet points but I'd be here all night if I carried on.

[silver holly]

lay off of ninetales lmao the man isn't pushing an agenda

[sharp condor]

we're not saying he's pushing an agenda

[rare sequoia]

not trying to be rude, apologies if it came off that way

[sharp condor]

I don't think it's really possible for one person to summarise so much information and capture everything in an unbiased way

[quick sapphire]

It didn't I just clearly worded my post badly.

[rare sequoia]

just don't agree that it's a good recap of the many different opinions

[quick sapphire]

It's 3am cut me some slack

[rigid zenith]

all i can say is that people's opinion on 7+x bag is 50-50

[blazing acorn]

homie get some sleep lol

Think the only thing that really sticks amongst those conversation topics is the last one. I'm thinking back to the ZPT testing days and that was over a week's period (although ZPT vs LPT was nowhere near as intrusive as this)

[quick sapphire]

If another test period is gonna get pushed there really needs to be an ingame feedback button.

And from what I hear. A bit more warning that it's getting changed.

[rigid zenith]

tetrio staff poorly executed cpt in tl and most people were biased against passthrough while enjoying zpt

[quick sapphire]

I'd be lying if I said I was unbiased during the zpt feedback phase. I really desperately wanted it.

I was so tired of lag spikes and attacks that sometimes felt like they should have been blocked but wern't.

[blazing acorn]

Was it really ZPT vs CPT during that??? I thought it was LPT

[rigid zenith]

nah it was zpt and cpt

[blazing acorn]

Apparently I have the memory of a goldfish lmao

[quick sapphire]

#1225191549881810965 message

^ This is what I think of 7+X.

[rare sequoia]

I can recap my points at least, Ninetails is right that there'd be no end to an actual recap hence the 9k+ messages

• 7+x seems too drastic
• it removes the versatility of having openers as an option alongside 9-0/6-3/4w
• ruins the transition to midgame as Ninetails put it
• opener phase is dull and longer
• games in general are longer and benefit defensive players more
• openers like tki and mko etc are healthy for the game as a fun option to smoothly get into the midgame
• finding a way to "remove" kill openers while keeping transition/setup openers is healthier for the game than 7+x as it is now

I think that's about it, these aren't fact just my 2 cents

[quick sapphire]

Well I'm going to sleep now. Hopefully we get an update or blog post soon with regards to things going forward and how the feedback is being received.

Just like ZPT I really hope bag changes are brought to TL in the future. Maybe ... just maybe I might hit .

[mystic yoke]

I think defensiveness is even more hit by the changes though

[rare sequoia]

Maybe bag changes or some other way to fix the current state of things, I do agree some openers are quite oppressive atm

nerfs or other options

[long palm]

SDPC was one of the more prominent examples

[sharp condor]

yea i heard people saying you have to sprint out 35 pieces to start having normal ds so if you're significantly slower than your opponent then you can get fucked

[blazing acorn]

"opener phase is dull and longer" is an interesting angle. I figured that with the 7+X bag system nerfs the ever-loving hell out of theory openers and pushes them way faster into midgame rather than having a straight-up Chess opening — which, to me, is the "dull and longer" version of openers

[signal crypt]

i still think that whatever zombie suggested in https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1233972737576276040 allows for much less rng in how to counter the current kill openers

[rare sequoia]

If you're an offensive player you can't really do as much about the other player as it's harder to build up attack and resources like b2b, so you're slowly dragged into their territory of margin time and whatnot

[mystic yoke]

it's as hard to defend with fewer resources

[mystic yoke]

in this regard, being offensive is just "upstacking and cycling"

[rare sequoia]

For that point it's because I personally don't enjoy stacking 6-3 every game like a zombie and think having a repertoire of small openers is a much more fun way of opening the game

It's not exactly faster than before because you need to ditch your extra pieces then clean up your stack before it feels like you can actually get started with the game

[blazing acorn]

I wouldn't say it's a "fewer resources" deal but "less consistent resources"

[sharp condor]

it is immensely harder to tsd chain with 7+x bag, and in many cases impossible

[mystic yoke]

if less consistent means "almost always", then it's fewer resources

[sharp condor]

a lot of the time you will be forced to simply stack for quads

[spring minnow]

35 piece classic lmao

[rare sequoia]

Some may argue that people who use openers are like zombies but why not just have your choice of pick if they're both well balanced/not oppressive? It's the best of both worlds

7+x appended or the +x being at the end of the bag are ideas I could get behind along with nerfing openers but keeping them around

[sharp condor]

This sums up a lot of my thoughts really nicely. I wanted to add that I believe kill-openers are currently problematic and I wouldn't be opposed to nerfs for kill-openers but I think the problems outlined that 7+x brings makes it not worth it

[rare sequoia]

Also 7+1 is even worse because it doesn't actually do anything about openers and makes them stronger (1st bag dpc and other PC theory, and openers can still be made easily and consistently with a bag like that)

[vast matrix]

we need to look into the other direction

7-1 bag

[rare sequoia]

6 bag?

[vast matrix]

and it always removes O

now no one can sdpc or stick

[sharp condor]

😭

[vast matrix]

damn it

[rare sequoia]

yeah missing pieces is just asking to be pc'd

[signal crypt]

i mean with the 7+x appended you already disrupt a lot of the 2nd bag setups

[sharp condor]

missing or adding, because ironically enough default 7bag has the worst pc chance

[mystic yoke]

7+ 3 and 7+2 ez double pc

[signal crypt]

7+3 is just first

[mystic yoke]

pc spam is not as threatening tho

I still dislike pcs in game

[sharp condor]

yea i don't think 7+3 appended would work at all

[rare sequoia]

Right but at least you can have openers that help you get to a good board state with b2b easily, my point is about the flow and variety

[sharp condor]

7+3 appended is just 1st pc that goes into 1st pc again so it would make pc spamming even easier

7+anything appended has this problem actually

[blazing acorn]

Oh right, on the list of troll ideas

[tired flame]

7+3 then 9 8 8 bag

Bad idea?

[signal crypt]

yeah i see the 7+x appended being like, you allow openers like tki and mko to exist since you can always freestyle out of the first tsd, while the added pieces are disruptive enough that the kill openers we have now cant be used

[rigid zenith]

7+20

[vast matrix]

LOL

nestris for 20 pieces

[rare sequoia]

So nerfing the attack table is the way to go?

[sharp condor]

i would be more excited to explore changes that don't affect bags so much, i'm not a game designer so i have no clue how viable any of this would be but something like changing starting previews seem interesting to me

[sharp condor]

yea or something like this i wouldn't be opposed to

[mystic yoke]

Winter, I mentioned earlier about having multipliers only affect base dmg

[wanton mulch]

14bag ✅

[mystic yoke]

so not increasing off b2b

[rare sequoia]

right, other ideas work too

[sharp condor]

although i can't think of anything relating to this that nerfs stickspin at lower ranks other than like a 5bag damage nerf or something

[rare sequoia]

I'm mostly talking about temporary nerfs

[vast matrix]

hiding preview would only make it more rng i think

[sharp condor]

wdym

suppose you have 1 preview at the start along with your hold and current piece

[vast matrix]

then you can guess you can sdpc

but you cant actually see if you can

so it becomes rng when you can

[sharp condor]

that's one part of it, and it will feel shit to try and build sdpc and have it end up not working at you have a bad stack

the second part of it is a drastic speed nerf at the start

[rare sequoia]

I HATE ACCIDENTALLY HITTING EDIT COMMENT INSTEAD OF REPLY AND LOSING MY REPLY

[blazing acorn]

TEC and TGM3 (horrid example) give a maximum of 4 and 3PP respectively and they fair just fine. Although, TEC has its own established meta. There's also PPT Swap with 3PP, so it's not like it isn't an untested avenue

[vast matrix]

ig it nerfs speed, but anything that adds rng to the opener doesnt seem like it fixes the problem to me, would only make it more annoying/frustrating

[rigid zenith]

are you on mobile?

[vast matrix]

for both players

[tired flame]

Im like 90% sure i can 1 preview dot+tsar cannon

[signal crypt]

opener doesnt affect te:c much because of zone mechanic and phase 1 garbage distribution

[sharp condor]

i don't see how making sdpc less easy to build is bad

[sharp condor]

can you try it and confirm

[tired flame]

On mobile rn later

Not sure on the pc solve but c-spin probably

[rare sequoia]

Anyways my idea is for the first 21-28 pieces tspins send half damage and PC base damage is lowered, could be increased later in the game maybe

Or have PCs give diminishing returns as well, each successive one does less damage than the last

[rare sequoia]

Yes and it sucks

[sharp condor]

i like the first idea

[signal crypt]

the first idea seems good

[rigid zenith]

o7

[mystic yoke]

idk about diminishing returns, just remove PCs outright

[rare sequoia]

2nd idea would work in conjunction

[sharp condor]

although it would make countering certain attacks harder

wait yea 1st idea makes 4w op

[rare sequoia]

Mm true

[sharp condor]

also maybe dpc depending on how much the pc damage is nerfed by

[vast matrix]

idk i feel like if it's still allowed to happen then people are gonna keep doing it, it just wont be as consistent and it would be frustrating for both players when it does happen / doesnt happen

[sharp condor]

gimme a second to try make an example of why i think its ok

[vast matrix]

damage nerf of some kind does sound like a clean solution

[rare sequoia]

Baron had the idea to make lines the measurement for how long the nerfs lasted, so that would nerf 4w

[sharp condor]

pretend this is my starting bag

this is my attempt at building sdpc

[rare sequoia]

Or when charsys rolls around xp would work too, as my idea is based on

[sharp condor]

now my board is fucked, it would feel terrible to start with this, so someone who tries to build sdpc gets punished by this

[mystic yoke]

if pcs are removed, then just raw upstack openers like stickspin sdpcspin dt cannon are left as any stridey thing

[rare sequoia]

okay but it'd feel bad normally as well

[vast matrix]

right but then when it does happen and you're the opponent you're just like "god damn it he got it"

or that's how i would feel

[rare sequoia]

not seeing previews drastically lowers speed and makes the opener phase long and dull as well

[sharp condor]

i would be hoping this disincentives doing it enough

[vast matrix]

at least as it is right now, sdpcing is a skill they've practiced and it isnt rng, they're just that good at doing it

[mystic yoke]

idk about you cookie but I rely on some dependencies all the way through see 7

[rare sequoia]

it's too overpowered though, especially in ranks like D

[sharp condor]

it could be 1 preview for 1st bag, 3 previews for 2nd bag, 5 previews for 3rd bag idk i'm just giving random numebrs

[mystic yoke]

that's an outright skill expression outside of opener

[rare sequoia]

That kills openers outright as well, everyone would be forced into slow 9-0 or 6-3 and it'd feel bad to both play and watch imo

[vast matrix]

yeah early s/z would suck a lot in this universe lol

[sharp condor]

hmm maybe you're right

[rare sequoia]

And I still think having openers of some kind is good

[vast matrix]

if you get like early i you can probably tki

[sharp condor]

with hold preview and current piece you are able to see a non-sz piece at the start always

[mystic yoke]

so we're talking about opener health in SS through A rank?

What's the target audience

[rare sequoia]

D ranks are using sdpc

[sharp condor]

i'm curious to see what percentage of D ranks are using sdpc, and also how effective it actually is

[rare sequoia]

well idk about D but definitely B and C

[vast matrix]

0

[sharp condor]

with the strength of sdpc you'd think they'd rank up pretty fast to like A and higher anyway

[mystic yoke]

and if we remove PC, isnt sdpc just dead in water

sdpc upstack does take skill

[golden drum]

sdpcspin is still a thing

[sharp condor]

i think stickspin/sdpcspin is a bigger problem since sdpc can be countered a lot easier with opening attack and stick/sdpcspin don't have much counterplay at lower ranks

[vast matrix]

yeah i would imagine if anything is happening down in the low ranks it's probably stickspin

[rare sequoia]

They try it on every bag even when it's impossible, don't remember the piece placements, and if they misdrop or have to play normally it's about what you'd expect and they're actually probably D rank

[mystic yoke]

i find the least problem with stickspin of singleyou openers
sdpcspin is concerning tho

[vast matrix]

because seeing pcs for sdpc is hard enough that i doubt anyone really is practicing it lmao

in low ranks i mean

[sharp condor]

stickspin and sdpcspin are identical at lower ranks

[mystic yoke]

what does that mean?

[sharp condor]

lower ranks respond exactly the same way to them, like you can't really tell the openers apart as the opponent

i don't think i could tell the openers apart when playing against stick/sdpcspin

[mystic yoke]

hmm

[vast matrix]

ofc what do i know tho last time i was in A rank was in like 2020, my experience back then was just 9-0 and dt cannons, the experience could have wildly changed by now lol

[signal crypt]

people only learn up to the 8l pc i think

the dpc part is still pretty rare

[sharp condor]

between 2020 and 2024 opener meta has shifted drastically

[rare sequoia]

smolfeesh and others popularized opener meta as it is now

[wanton mulch]

you get returned with massive apm 75%, I would win 75% and lose 25% time if I could
(rare high moments)

[blazing acorn]

Anything and everything flies in every rank. Openers exist in pretty much all ranks; the only differences are proficiency in opener and game mechanics and opponents' responses to said openers/survival skill

[sharp condor]

it's less than 75% and that implies sdpc mains win 100% of the time they build it anyway

[vast matrix]

if you get early O you can always build the first bag

[sharp condor]

that's if you get early O

anyways i do see other problems with the reducing previews idea

[signal crypt]

idk the reduced preview thing is kinda a drag

you are second guessing which piece is next or not

[spring minnow]

time to add the jstris enforced speedcap to tl

[sharp condor]

you don't necessarily have to guess, it's still 7 bag so with 3 pieces that you can see, you can place them and see the next ones coming up

[spring minnow]

speedcap gets raised with each rank

[sharp condor]

i'm trying to play with 2 previews rn and i can make tsd start basically everytime i woudl be able to regularly at like 2pps

[hybrid depot]

that's just because you want to will the next piece into existence right
with 5 next, you aren't trying to predict the 6th next

[tired flame]

yup 100% on c-spin not sure for tsar pc solve but dot should be doable 100%.

[sharp condor]

100% wow

i didn't even know it was 100% buildable regularly

[tired flame]

dot and tsar are similiar

its really just about O

[rare sequoia]

ms2 is also 100% with mirrors, right?

[tired flame]

tried to set previews to 0 but couldnt

pretty sure it can be doen on 0 too

[spring minnow]

you have to turn off the "use next queue" option

or something along those lies

[tired flame]

yup even with 0 doable

[sharp condor]

doable or always doable

[tired flame]

c-spin always

[sharp condor]

hmm okay

[tired flame]

pc solves idk with limited previews, even with full previews i suck at pcing tsar to tell

[winged tartan]

would you rather "feel terrible" or know from the very beginning that it's not happening lol

idk lol it's important to stress that osk isn't trying to maximize suffering with this movement

[rare sequoia]

hopefully the opposite but its good to think about other possible solutions even if they end up having lots of flaws

[grand topaz]

i really just opened twitch and looked at it and saw this and i was like "lol"

[grand topaz]

i would think the goal is that the game stops being about repeating 28-long patterns for a quick win in every rank, but it's really the most notable in S+ and below, but you can trace it down even to B- and players in C rank saying "i am practicing my sdpc"

[sharp condor]

My idea was that feeling terrible would disincentivise players from doing the thing that feels terrible

But ya I see problems in that and other problems too now

[winged tartan]

well you aren't the first one to have the idea lol

circular thread

[dreamy talon]

i take back my opinions on this, its a great idea not having to worry about opener mains

[grand topaz]

i somehow did get blitz'd during 7+X but exactly only once and by a player with like 1 mil blitz

so it's definitely more rare. also more difficult to execute, possibly bag dependant

at that point is it even "getting blitzed" or actually opponent just being pretty damn pro lol

[dreamy talon]

pure pc moment

[slender torrent]

is 7+x on custom rooms settings?

[grand topaz]

yes

[slender torrent]

nice

[sharp condor]

my idea as in the idea that i'm talking about, not the one that originates from me

also i can't find anyone who suggested it before me anyway lol

[grand topaz]

feeling terrible would disincentivise players from doing the thing that feels terrible
that's exactly why the 7+X change is being experimented with in the first place

[winged tartan]

well having one preview at the start of the game, yes

oh i guess you were the first one to have it that day

[sharp condor]

yes I know but my opinion is that 7+x brings more harm than good and so I would like to explore other ideas, the preview reduction one was a random one that came up and now I see it is bad but like winterfrost said too, I think it's good to think about other possible solutions and if they have flaws we can just toss those ideas or whatever

[grand topaz]

i'm so far not yet convinced that 7+X brings "more harm" considering it only affects the first 35 pieces

which at higher ranks is gone in like 10-15 seconds

at lower ranks, all they notice is that they didn't die in 10 seconds

[solemn grove]

for me it's generally a meh change
granted openers are gone, but my problem is openers are gone

i'll still bring up c4w meta theory, got wrecked by a 4w player that isn't even that good at 4w solely cause i see no counter to that

possible skill issue on my end but still

[boreal drift]

We're now 166 messages away from 10k

By far the most messages ever in a #1020054329782186065

[grand topaz]

the most requested feature of all time according to number of comments

[sharp condor]

for me there are two reasons why this isn't true

in 7+x, opener phase is inherently more infds'y and garbage is less clean, which makes the midgame phase also less clean

[grand topaz]

stack quads then

[sharp condor]

less apm/pressure whatever, the point is the game is slower paced

[grand topaz]

(that sounds intended)

aka you don't die in 6 seconds

[sharp condor]

the second reason is that the weird bags throws off bag intuition

[grand topaz]

you also have a next queue though 🤔

[sharp condor]

more like midgame phase consists of a lot more cheese race and less b2b chaining

[sharp condor]

what does next queue have to do with intuition

[sharp condor]

alternative interpretation is the most hated feature request of all time according to amount of backlash

[solemn grove]

more like most controversial

[molten pecan]

openers are lit

[solemn grove]

if it was most requested you'd see +1 reactions on the post have a significant distance above all the x's

[winged tartan]

they were probably messing around lol

[grand topaz]

some people hate it for sure, reminds me of the passthrough changes tbf

on the bright side, zpt is definitely an improvement now that it was merged

[grand topaz]

more like midgame phase consists of a lot more cheese race and less b2b chaining
theoretically midgame phase should transition back to your usual b2b chaining after 35 pieces are placed

7+X only affects the first 5 bags afaik

[sharp condor]

garbage pattern is cheesier and less influx of clean => more difficult to ds and also more difficult to b2b ds => garbage pattern is cheesier => ...

[solemn grove]

no openers means starting the game off with less clean garbage

[grand topaz]

that's why you watch some ei_lara gameplay who gets b2b even on a cheesy board 🤷

coolest t-spin setups of all time too

but he only plays t99 these days, retired from PPT

[solemn grove]

not everyone is ei_lara

[grand topaz]

well you could be

[sharp condor]

watch some cz gameplay who can always counter opener

[grand topaz]

you just have to get beyond the opener phase and play the game afterwards lol

[sharp condor]

you could be him too

[grand topaz]

his burst speed is over 5.5 pps

[sharp condor]

yea like ei_lara isn't insanely higher skill too

you can't just say it's not a problem because a better player can fix the problem

[grand topaz]

i tried fighting ei_lara in PPT and lost every game

[wanton mulch]

just curious, can I see a match of 7+x that starts off as inf ds for a while?

[grand topaz]

the problem as to what 7+X is trying to solve is that you can currently memorize 28 piece placements and "just win" by doing the 28 exact piece placements every single game

[sharp condor]

i don't have any replays

[quick sapphire]

Yeah man. You could be the top TL player in the world too!

[grand topaz]

imagine becoming top #1 just to counter openers

[sharp condor]

that's the argument zhungamer is using, i'm just giving an example back to show how absurd it is

[sharp condor]

i tried fighting cz and lost every game too 😭

[grand topaz]

the argument was rather "learn more downstack-compatible b2b t-spin setups"

[wanton mulch]

Well you did talk this based on your experience on 7+x right?

[quick sapphire]

I just joined the chat and found that funny.

Had to reply.

[grand topaz]

which is what the top players are already doing anyway.

[sharp condor]

yes so against opener you can "learn better defensive stacking and macro"

which is also what top players are doing

[grand topaz]

no time for defense

[onyx reef]

why are we bringing up what top players are doing when this change mostly changes lower ranks lol

[grand topaz]

you gotta counter opener with opener

[onyx reef]

i mean not really?

[sharp condor]

not true at all, if you watch any tsd cup finals match i doubt you will see sdpc or whatever once

[onyx reef]

top players can downstack just fine against opener

[grand topaz]

because the complaint just now was "there is a bit more cheese at the beginning of the game, so b2b is hard" but like... you can still get b2b even while DS

alternately be like ting and be DS god

[onyx reef]

ok but those arent A ranks

[grand topaz]

indeed

[solemn grove]

7+x changes gameplay from D to mid U

[grand topaz]

in A rank the change is just "people stop dying in 10 seconds and can actually play the game", which is like +100% net positive

[lament elm]

*from U opnr to D, nay F at 1.5pps

[grand topaz]

that would be funny

[peak jasper]

Niya is a good example

[onyx reef]

people also just dont die at all

[quick sapphire]

SDPC is high risk, high reward. A missdrop during SDPC can just result in self-defeat.

I tend to see a lot of people around my rank ( Yours may vary ) that just instantly top themselves out if they missdrop SDPC.

[grand topaz]

shifting away the opener phase results in opener stats being normalized back to "post-opener" phase stats

so we get to see people's real game stats by using 7+X

SDPC is pretty low risk you just gotta do it fast

[onyx reef]

the problem is opener stats now are underinflated instead of overinflated lol

[solemn grove]

honestly any PC opener can instantly shrivel to defeat with one misdrop

[quick sapphire]

Sorry what?

[sharp condor]

what commonly used opener is higher risk than sdpc lol

[grand topaz]

what is the risk of using SDPC? if it was high risk, less people would use it.

[solemn grove]

i'd say ms2

[quick sapphire]

The risk is missdropping and completely screwing your board up.

[onyx reef]

its also high reward and incredibly easy to learn

[peak jasper]

Mding the opener. Something i tend to do a lot

[solemn grove]

uhh misdrop 1 piece you get real bad board

[grand topaz]

and completely screwing your board up.
fixable if your opponent is not opener-main

[peak jasper]

What if they are

[grand topaz]

then you die

in 6 seconds

[onyx reef]

an x rank can deal with a misdropped sdpc almost 100% of the time an A rank is not going to be able to in any reasonable amount of time 💀

[solemn grove]

fixable if you can fix your misdrops

[quick sapphire]

Any board state is fixable but typically SDPC potentially leaves a real rats nest of pieces if you're unlucky.

[sharp condor]

yea if sdpc is 100% winrate as i keep seeing people say then why are A rank sdpc users still A rank

obviously there's some flaw to the opener

[grand topaz]

misdrops

[solemn grove]

uhh no as well, x ranks can easily die with a 1 piece md

[grand topaz]

60 APM if opener, 10 APM if misdrop

[peak jasper]

A ranks dont know how to fix their boardstate if they md

[solemn grove]

note that sdpc requires quite a lot of soft drops and spins, even more than pco

[quick sapphire]

At the rate send garbage at each other they're not safe from SDPC missdrops either.

[solemn grove]

if you can pull off sdpc i'd say you deserve it

[grand topaz]

and as long as A ranks are forced to learn openers for survival, they will not have opportunity to learn to fix their board state as they don't get to that phase of the game ever

[solemn grove]

but again, one tsd at the start is enough to stop the pc down the line

[peak jasper]

?? They will learn it eventually

[grand topaz]

it just gets converted to SDPC-spin and the c-spin will carry them

[peak jasper]

Opening can only get you so far

You eventually hit a wall

[onyx reef]

?? opener vs opener almost always leads to midgame lol

[sharp condor]

also i'm not sure where this forced to learn opener thing is coming from

[solemn grove]

person would already be setup for the second t-spin leading to pc before that happens

[sharp condor]

i see a lot of players just tki or literally 9-0 in A-S rank and do fine

like sometimes they will lose to 3pps extended sdpc but that's really not that common from my experience in watching their games

[grand topaz]

the first thing you tell an A rank is "to survive you need to learn TKI with 2.5 pps and hten you can TSD while they TSS and you will not die"

[onyx reef]

2.5 pps 💀

[quick sapphire]

It seems to be a general concencsus that people need to opener themselves to counter the opponents opener.

[peak jasper]

????

[solemn grove]

besides, you can set up a t-spin, accept the c-spin, then counterspike

[grand topaz]

which kinda sucks. Now they gotta focus on openers with 2.5 pps to have a chance in the game

[sharp condor]

i don't think i've said that once

[onyx reef]

what A rank is going 2.5 pps 💀

[grand topaz]

well you haven't been talking to much low ranks then

[wanton mulch]

that's bit extreme honestly

[onyx reef]

i coached someone from d to x in the last year

[peak jasper]

That is

[onyx reef]

it was not like that

[quick sapphire]

From the experience I've gained the first opener I see people being taught is DT cannon. TKI comes later.

[grand topaz]

you gotta match their speed

[onyx reef]

most people die to the opener phase because of plain bad stacking

[sharp condor]

no clue why DT is so popular lmao but yea like DT isn't some insanely unfun thing to do or anything is it

[grand topaz]

otherwise you die. And opener mains can do that thing fast, then completely dissolve to 0.7 pps in lower ranks

[solemn grove]

for the first 7 pieces

[grand topaz]

wow very fun.

pls give me more early O anxiety as i play