7+X-Bag in TL

[stone roost]

Yeah someone can take advantage of the bag system to be efficient (to inflict more damage)

[grand topaz]

yes, and now currently LST mains and stickspin / SDPC mains all do the SAME placements in almost every game

making the game both stale to play and stale to watch... and you are at least low U rank by the time you counter it, making the game suck for 94% of players

[merry breach]

from what i heard this only affects the first 5 bags so it shouldnt be that big of a deal

[stone roost]

But it has to be efficient, not necessary

[graceful owl]

sdpcspin taught me how to time my attacks

[grand topaz]

you can watch caboozled's spiking lecture for the same effect 🤔

[graceful owl]

so argument is just "why do this when you can just do that instead" which isn't really an argument lol

[stone roost]

I mean openers have to be respected as the component of the game like other strategies

Not ‘the one and only’

We shouldn’t be forced to play in a single way

[graceful owl]

it's not "the one and only" at all

in SS rank sdpcspin already isn't that good

[grand topaz]

it's rather "why do you need to do this 1 specific thing in order to stand a chance when other player is doing that exact same specific thing over and over and over in every game"

there is no variety

it's always sdpc-spin OR sdpc/dpc

[graceful owl]

that's just not true

[grand topaz]

sometimes c4w i guess

[fresh ermine]

it is true that openers can be teach players things, we are not against that.
The problem is that many players rely too much on them AND that they are overpowered

[stone roost]

Well then why are you even fighting? Most of the people here in my opinion doesn’t want openers to be banned or like be gone

[graceful owl]

you haven't played enough

[grand topaz]

i do

openers are the worst part of this game

[stone roost]

They just want to find the point where strategies balance

[merry breach]

^

[stone roost]

Oh well sorry then,, but my opinion is like that

[grand topaz]

people literally only learn the "mid-game tech" for the first 4 bags which is how we ended up here in the first place

[graceful owl]

they're not even overpowered though

you just dont know how to counter

[grand topaz]

it literally wins in 6 seconds

[merry breach]

thats the thing

[graceful owl]

then dont let them win

ez

[rugged spear]

i'm agreeing with openers being overpower but i'm disagreeing with this way to fix it

[graceful owl]

mad cuz bad?

[slender torrent]

I agree if they arent on weekends

[fresh ermine]

I do know, but most players don't

[grand topaz]

you really do enjoy baiting lmao

[merry breach]

because everyone tells everyone "learn this and that" in lower ranks and you simply cant counter it

[grand topaz]

S+ people be like "i wanna play the game but this asshole is doing stickspin again"

[merry breach]

b rank dt cannon was wild back then

[grand topaz]

7+X fixes this

[graceful owl]

yeah you're just repeating the same arfguments

variety 🤓

[winged tartan]

this isn't a 1v1 discord chat

[slender torrent]

kek

[merry breach]

do i get glicko for this zap

[graceful owl]

lol skill issue

[stone roost]

Agreed
Don’t think this a solid exchange of opinion it’s just forcing to agree,,,

[winged tartan]

you're being very very antagonistic, dude

[quick sapphire]

Something I've tried saying multiple times now...

[stone roost]

I mean aren’t we here to listen to others,,?

[neat pagoda]

Potentially interesting idea I haven't seen: You get a visual indicator of which column your next garbage will spawn in (maybe only for the first attack/few) so that you will be able to stack around it and not get spiked out as easily at the start.

[winged tartan]

not if they're just going to ignore everything and provoke others

[quick sapphire]

I'm not here to read two people ranting / provoking each other.

[graceful owl]

then dont

this argument is meaningless

[slender torrent]

half of it is already a thing

[graceful owl]

this entire thread is meaningless

[winged tartan]

ok then why be in it

[fresh ermine]

thank you zap

[slender torrent]

[quick sapphire]

Thank you Zap.

[stone roost]

I don’t even get the point of him being so mad

But the issue seems finished anyway so..

[neat pagoda]

What do you mean?

[fresh ermine]

people in favor of openers are good to have here but that dude..

[quick sapphire]

All opinions on both sides should be respected but don't "take the piss".

[slender torrent]

you can predict where first garbage collumn is comming, but requires some steps

[winged tartan]

yeah i really don't want to make it look like i'm just ejecting everyone against this change but just a few people are really not giving me a choice

[fossil charm]

i feel like there happens to be an overlap of opener users and toxic people

[slender torrent]

am I close?

[winged tartan]

nowhere near as bad as they were lol

[slender torrent]

yay

[fossil charm]

ig opener gaming is just inherently a bit more likely to get tilty

[slender torrent]

wtf how bad was he i need to roll back

[merry breach]

lol

[quick sapphire]

In their defence, Not everyone that has chatted who is an opener main has been disrespectful. For the most part it's been very fair and honest feedback from both sides.

[stone roost]

Agree

[buoyant drum]

they are at the operational end of this change tho, imagine if you buffed openers instead

[fossil charm]

yea overlap doesnt mean all people lol

[stone roost]

He was kinda toxic tho

[merry breach]

7bag but it starts with O I L now

pick your poison

[fossil charm]

's not rly to do with this thread even, just kinda in general as i looked across all the communities i know of for their responses

[buoyant drum]

yeah no NO

[merry breach]

[quick sapphire]

I've definitely over the years been toxic to opener mains ( Not ingame, More like that angry kid that screams at his PC monitor ).

[fossil charm]

feesh server and blitzcord worst offenders which ... hmm yeah

[slender torrent]

I'd agree keep 7+x till ninetales get U

[winged tartan]

[spring minnow]

theres still not much variety when people just shift to well stacking instead

[slender torrent]

[quick sapphire]

Do you think you've got much valuable feedback from the bag test osk?

In general. Not just here.

[stone roost]

So curious

[buoyant drum]

was the play count any different? are you going to publish your findings?

man i wish i knew statistics and could use it irl

[winged tartan]

new osk blog post

[buoyant drum]

^

[winged tartan]

tbh i wish you posted more matomo tweets, those are the best

[buoyant drum]

man posts every other leap year

[slender torrent]

link

[neat pagoda]

Well I'd imagine play count was probably higher but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because people liked it more.

I played a few sets just to be able to test it out.

[lament elm]

So, the honest criticism is to change the current hacky implementation of 7+X just a bit

• Separate 7+X into big 7-bag and mini X-bag: put 7 first and TKI and one bag openers still work
• Change the 7+3 7+2 7+1 7+1 7 7 7 into 7+2 7+2 7+2 7+1 7 7 7

[buoyant drum]

i would expect it to be lower actually

[lament elm]

Seems like the two cool change

[winged tartan]

well it was on the weekend

[rugged spear]

7+3 affects it too hard, yeah

[buoyant drum]

^ yes i guessed it was so tetris players gets to experience it rather than .io gamers

[winged tartan]

yeah lol

there's also always the suggestion of removing from the X bag so you only need to alter 6 pieces and not 7, keeping the parity more controllable

[slender torrent]

I'd prefer +2 then the 7 bag

[buoyant drum]

@winged tartan oh with the T gone it's also cuter, 3 2 1 instead of 3 2 1 1

[lament elm]

still keep the freestyle mindset I suppose

[rugged spear]

that's also what i've been suggesting

[winged tartan]

yeah precisely

[rugged spear]

but if you inject 3 pieces into a bag without t then it might be too much to cycle for t pieces

you never know till you play it

[winged tartan]

pick your poison

[quick sapphire]

Where!?

[winged tartan]

pending

[spring minnow]

ye something like that would probably be better

[slender torrent]

The good of +3 +2 +1 +1 is that the pieces added was the 7bag

if it was +2 +2 +1 it would miss 2 pieces

[quick sapphire]

Dammit Zap you got my hopes up!

[buoyant drum]

i DEMAND monthly update blog posts

[spring minnow]

7 bag but it adds in an extra piece tht isnt s, z, t for the first 3 bags

[lament elm]

no

[spring minnow]

😢

[quick sapphire]

I think s and z should still be in it.

[lament elm]

cant do funnies

[spring minnow]

i wouldnt really want any double spiky pieces before my stack has stabilized

[buoyant drum]

just remove rng and make tl set seed

[quick sapphire]

dos350 are you gonna contribute or just put reacts on everything?

[rugged spear]

i was thinking of something that punishes you the more bags of opener you do, but that'll introduce a big jump when it returns to normal 7bag suddenly

[slender torrent]

why

[spring minnow]

2l pc

flat

[slender torrent]

my mech is already in ruins, I can fish it ignoring the disaster on first bags

if you remove then I will just cannot

[spring minnow]

just 2l pc then mech

[slender torrent]

Cant

it ruins 7 bag

[spring minnow]

😢

[slender torrent]

mech only works with extra L, J and I

[winged tartan]

well suffice to say they uh ........can't send messages

[quick sapphire]

oh ok

[lament elm]

just dono

[tired flame]

they got booted out the thread

[lament elm]

SZ patterns ye

[tired flame]

So did a lot of backreading to catchup

I do think 7bag intuition is messed up

especially the first bag

hence why i think first bag being 7 bag then adding the 3 random pieces after might be a okay compromise

if the next 3 bags are still 9 8 8

or maybe change it to 98810

i do think +1 is pointless cause dpc for the first bag

[grand topaz]

i was watching an X do 7+1 and there's still a PC solve almost every time. I was very surprised to see it

but it did look trickier to get

[summer locust]

personally idrc because this changes literally nothing about D rank play lol

[grand topaz]

• Separate 7+X into big 7-bag and mini X-bag: put 7 first and TKI and one bag openers still work
is there any specific need for this, or is it to make 1-bag openers more reliable?

for example tki/mko

[lament elm]

ye, zombie's idea

My idea is to put mini bag in front

So still 7p intuition and bag count

[spring minnow]

ye

[lament elm]

while keeping midgame feel

But big bag first is fine to keep image of the game ig

still punishing long kill openers

[grand topaz]

i don't see if it is really necessary to have the 7-bag immediately available to you

like, even without TKI bag i was making STSD

there's options

[spring minnow]

i think make the 7+x period shorter if the only intent is to kill openers

[grand topaz]

i think the first 5 bag makes perfect sense because all the multi-bag openers are around ~4 bag long

[lament elm]

Ye zhun very self-yakine gamer

[grand topaz]

i wish i had yakine's dono vision

[lament elm]

no problem cooking tspeen

[grand topaz]

i'm nowhere close

[lament elm]

Im keeping mine more practical

[spring minnow]

ye but just changing the first 2 bags kills opener

[grand topaz]

sounds like a good thing to me

openers are effectively an unfair advantage to those who don't know opener

"knowing opener" means you went on harddrop/fourlol and memorized something or watched a yt video

for bottom 50% it is better if there's no such thing at the start of a game

[spring minnow]

im not arguing for openers just making the game less boring to start out

[grand topaz]

it wasn't boring to me, i made TST+TSM opener once

and ended up with perfect 6-3 stack

[spring minnow]

no what im saying is that 2 bags of 7+whatever is already enough to stop openers

[tired flame]

i wonder if 14bag can get be made into an opener mainy opener

maybe just 1 14 bag and get it over with

[spring minnow]

ye

[tired flame]

i do dislike having to go to 35 before playing normally

[spring minnow]

ye

[tired flame]

but i do get what zhun means

[grand topaz]

do you think it's ok for me to post a twitch clip or should i make a recording of the clip and post it as a video

[tired flame]

i saw ninetales b2bx4-5 in the first 35 pieces and KO from freestyling

which i do admit sounds fun to pull off

if possible

[spring minnow]

honestly 9-0 is just the more consistent strategy

[timid kindle]

6-3

[grand topaz]

me when 9-0 harder for me than STSD for i dunno why reason

[spring minnow]

youre not really going to be freestyling with mega ttt

[grand topaz]

i want to TTT trinity 😭

[lament elm]

wtf i was a out to say BT

but gg

[grand topaz]

in 7-bag i make trinity as opener more often

BT for me is mid-game tech

[spring minnow]

7 bag trinity 🥶

[grand topaz]

cut-copy more practical for the same garbage pattern tho

[spring minnow]

midgame bt 🥶

[grand topaz]

i do it it's fun

[spring minnow]

ye

[grand topaz]

i like doing things people don't find practical, bonus points if it wins lmao

[spring minnow]

id do bt if i was trolling

[grand topaz]

i accidentally got a nilcross once

[lament elm]

zhun the type to not keep high B2B and still 1app tspeen nowau

[grand topaz]

tbf to have 1APP i do need to keep b2b

[spring minnow]

ds

[lament elm]

ah skul

[grand topaz]

it adds extra bit of oomph

it's one of the things i have been focusing on lately

[rare sequoia]

Kill openers are, spreading out the x in 7+x sounds a lot better than what we currently have tbh because small tki-like openers aren't as big of an advantage and don't need to be played around, while still being a fun and smooth transition into midgame

[spring minnow]

ye

but i cant even tki with 7+x 😢

[grand topaz]

i just like how it's not that obvious how to get to 7-2 lst

previously every "not-opener-main" tech was TKI flat-top LST 5x b2b

except if PCO for some reason

[rare sequoia]

lst is hard

[spring minnow]

i just do 9-0 for 35 pieces then go into lst

[grand topaz]

the first 5 t-spins look pretty pre-determined but i don't do it enough to know if it is true

[tired flame]

from flattop? https://swng.github.io/cover-visualizer/flattop_lst/

[grand topaz]

ok this one is funny

[rare sequoia]

sure the first 2 are pretty much determined but after that you have to freestyle depending on the 2nd bag and whatnot

[tired flame]

that one is the best bag 2 afaik

[spring minnow]

i thinkt hats the best build

[tired flame]

onyl have 2 follow ups

[grand topaz]

the heck haha

[tired flame]

then freestyle

[rare sequoia]

it's actually pretty hard to learn how to maintain and balance the 7-2

[tired flame]

well lst style

[spring minnow]

ye

[tight harbor]

that one feels easiest to follow up

[grand topaz]

but unironically tho i've seen top-rank do LST on a 6-3 with throwing i pieces on the rightmost column

for like 3-4 TSD at most then do whatever else

[tight harbor]

mixing lst and heart pattern is good for 6-3

[grand topaz]

heart?

LST is cool by default but it is issue when the game ends at the 4th TSD with it

obviously skill issue per say but it's kinda like the same "misdrop = death" as any opener style.. which is why i think the way 7+X alters init is nice

[tight harbor]

LS, JZ, JO, LO patterns

[rare sequoia]

I just feel a lot better about 7+x being implemented if small but reliable openers still exist just to get the stack started and kill openers are out the window

[tight harbor]

negative overstack pattern

while lst is positive overstack

[timid kindle]

The bottom is off-putting

[rare sequoia]

that keeps the variety and choice in how to open in the game there making 7+x a lot less dull when opening

[tight harbor]

same

[grand topaz]

oh it's the thing they do for ST too

[tired flame]

i have not done st stacking

but probably?

[grand topaz]

it's this but you do Z-prop every time

[tired flame]

i only saw a swng video on it one time

[grand topaz]

4 pps ST bonk

[tight harbor]

ST stacking in 6 side of 6-3

heart spam in 3 side

[grand topaz]

wha

[tight harbor]

nue tech

[tight harbor]

have you seen nue ultra?

[grand topaz]

definitely not

first time hearing of it

[tight harbor]

I get out of it after 1~2 tsd but nue stays in it

[tight harbor]

https://jstris.jezevec10.com/replay/70990331

nue wasted two T for getting overstack

use lst pattern for gettinhg overstack instead

[tired flame]

watching that i just had 1 thought

why so much work to do taht

when you can just do reliable mech

[tight harbor]

it's rng

also

reliable mech can't go on indefinitely

[grand topaz]

using 2T at start of ST is actually regular for ST

[tight harbor]

smh

[grand topaz]

it actually happens by default when you stack for ST

[tight harbor]

yep cuz st stacking pattern consumes overstack

[rugged spear]

ye

st understaxks every bag so u need 2 waste to reset

[tight harbor]

you can use lst pattern for getting overstack instead of wasting T btw

[timid kindle]

What's the score here

[tight harbor]

87.5k

[timid kindle]

Wtf

Need to beat that

[tired flame]

anyways this is going way offtopic

[grand topaz]

cc @primal gale

[solemn grove]

i call skill issue

[sharp condor]

yea agree

i would be fine if kill openers were gutted but it would be nice to have a fun transition to midgame

well my idea of fun anyway

[cinder vapor]

imo openers wouldn't fully die even with 7+X bag. It's just that it's been so short a timeframe that people have had no chance to truly experiment with the potential.

At the very least basic setups would remain

[severe spindle]

I wouldnt want to meta to become cheese and inf ds with nothing to particularly counter something like 4w

Opener currently counter 4w to bring a kind of balance to the game but if openers are removed 4w gets buffed

[cinder vapor]

4w can still be hurt without 7bag

4w only hurts those who can't apply consistent pressure and don't understand 4w's strengths

[mystic yoke]

it's not meant to be a wide-scale impact, just regularize the matches more

[spiral vessel]

this goes for openers too tbh

[mystic yoke]

if someone say "i cant beat stickspin", well just say "you can cancel even while slow"

if someone say to beat sdpc, it's just "send them anything at all"

I dont like how noninteractive it is

[cinder vapor]

Every opener has a weak point to exploit. For SDPC it's weakness lies in it's first bag. So long as you can throw them a single line it will heavily neuter their damage potential and make it unviable to loop.

[mystic yoke]

X rank sdpc are fast enough to beat travel time

the interaction with travel time is what makes it alot more annoying

[spiral vessel]

thats true actually

[cinder vapor]

In X rank, sure. Though by that point people understand how to apply enough pressure to break the loop regardless.

[spiral vessel]

after a certain speed the sdpcer usually can get the pc off every time, you just have to get some through the dpc (or the next sdpc)

[cinder vapor]

Which is why you don't see every X rank using SDPC

[spiral vessel]

ye

i kinda quit using it that much cause it starts to suck

[mystic yoke]

it's like nearing 4 pps

and above

high U ranks can get about that speed too but

idk, u ranks are also weak

[spiral vessel]

yeah

the dpc is more scary tbh

[mystic yoke]

cos it's usually quad solve?

well dpc does feel spikier than sdpc

sdpc is a little slow that regard

[spiral vessel]

yeah

if you dont get down fast enough the dpc tops u out a lot, and even if it doesnt kill you have to deal with the next sdpc (probably with b2b bonus too)

and people usually can do sdpc faster than dpc

[rare sequoia]

Exactly, 6-3 and 9-0 just don't really fill that hole for me, 1st bag tspins are fast and flexible for getting into midgame with a good board and a little b2b, and there's variety in the different kinds unlike just stacking the same well pattern for 15 seconds every game until midgame starts

[mystic yoke]

I also agree with this

[spring minnow]

ye fr

[spiral vessel]

yeah

[winged delta]

yes

i think it might be because there's not enough cheese with just quad stacking

[mystic yoke]

wat

[grand topaz]

i only lost to 4-wide only once in yesterday's 19 sets of 7+X TL (24.4k)

even tho there were a few people trying pretty hard

i kinda don't remember the waterdud duels though i think that was just weird

[neat pagoda]

Which ranks was 4w happening a lot in?

[grand topaz]

i do know that in my session, it was not that common while i was playing. 3 people tried it out of 19 and it wasn't really giving them wins (U rank)

[mystic yoke]

it's not rly ranks but "these people do it"

[grand topaz]

i ended up accidentally combo-ing them back lmao

like you see them 4-widing and then you send a 9 combo and they end up with the cheesy garbgae it is hilarious.

[rare sequoia]

that's just 1 day of testing though, I imagine if it's implemented the meta will shift itself and 4/3/2w will become more popular

[mystic yoke]

that's pretty true

[grand topaz]

as common as "opener into 9-0" is, i wouldn't be surprised.

[neat pagoda]

Well it's just weird because apparently some people were seeing it a ton but I didn't see it at all.

[mystic yoke]

i watched alot of people 3wing me

[grand topaz]

4voltsbattery is the only real representative of "deliberately 2-widing" in U though

tbf in a sense my STSD opening is also 3-wide in its nature

i would be fine if kill openers were gutted but it would be nice to have a fun transition to midgame
what i actually preferred incurrent 7+X variation is that you had no guarantee to "easily transition to a general pattern stacking pattern" but i did see that the otherwise generally aggressive players i was fighting still got there after the 35th piece anyway

it's nice not seeing LST for the first 4-5 bags

it might not be easy to do LST but it is mapped out and extremely common as opening, making the gameplay still systematic.

[rare sequoia]

what's the benefit of not easily transitioning with a few bags of tspins in the beginning? It doesn't kill and lst isn't too much of a problem, besides even in 7+x I labbed a consistent lst opener

[spiral vessel]

7+x feels kinda overly intrusive.. like so much is changed other than openers being nerfed

[mystic yoke]

I dont think a consistent transition is the same problem as "consistently finishing my loop"

[grand topaz]

the bag system returns to regular 7-bag after 35 pieces

[mystic yoke]

that's quite a long time to just kill openers

[grand topaz]

? it's 12 seconds?

[mystic yoke]

it messes with parity and the like after finishing 5 bags

almost like recovering back to standard

[fading spire]

preach

[grand topaz]

sounds fun

[spiral vessel]

i mean its a different time for everyone

[grand topaz]

at higher ranks if you play with 3 pps then it ends in 12 seconds

[mystic yoke]

3 pps is above X average

[grand topaz]

meanwhile at higher ranks and 7 bag, loopers can kill you in 6 seconds

[rare sequoia]

what about lower ranks

[grand topaz]

opener speed is normal for 3 pps

[grand topaz]

lower ranks finally not dying to stickspin "out of nowhere, i don't know what happened"

[mystic yoke]

how can you assume opener speed in 7+x

[grand topaz]

i presume people play the game more and think less about their strategy

i have to check if my speed was impacted much but i was playing my regular 2.3 pps opening speed even in 7+X

i think

otherwise fake news. i was busy playing i'm not 100% sure

[spiral vessel]

i mean

7+x is geared towards lower ranks who have no idea how to survive opener

[grand topaz]

ok nvm it was 1.7 pps STSD freestyle'd

[spiral vessel]

they arent going to be playing at 3 pps

opener or not

[grand topaz]

the openers are actually playing at 2.6 pps

even in low ranks

that's actually the problem

[spiral vessel]

i've seen openers in low ranks, they are rarely that fast

[mystic yoke]

ZPT alone fixed many opener problems in high ranks

7+x is for lower ranks

[grand topaz]

well ok they are ~4 pps in X, 2.9-3.5 in U, and 2.6 in SS

around 2.2 in S+

around 1.5 in S-

but thanks to 7+X the people cannot "2.4 pps opener => 0.9 pps stack" they skip the opener phase and transition immediately to "their otherwise regular mid-game"

[spiral vessel]

ehh

im not a low rank so i cant really comment on that

but

it kind of messes things up for non-opener mains, more than is necessary imo..

[grand topaz]

there is some truth to that it is "new" to have more variations to stack out of at the start, but think of this, classic players can 9-0 with a FULLY random bag, and no SRS spins (and no holds)

[mystic yoke]

it messed me up alot

[grand topaz]

so technically as 7+X still have the relevant restrictions on the provided pieces, you can definitely make something out of it.

[mystic yoke]

if i share my specific case, then I usually go slower in opener than midgame, then i go into long rounds and vibe
7+x really messed up my transition, had a hard time of it

[grand topaz]

what rank is this?

[mystic yoke]

x

[grand topaz]

hm

you can go slow against SDPC/DPC in X?

[mystic yoke]

about 2 pps

[grand topaz]

oh, that's just my normal speed lmao

3.7 pps gets to me 😭

[mystic yoke]

if i go by munchbot, im 1.8-1.9 on average

obviously i can speed up if opponent is looping me

so like, to be biased right

what is the problem with my region of playstyle where I'm using opener to move into midgame

well it doesnt rly matter

cookie and winter already made the points

and i shared yesterday

[severe spindle]

I use opener to build b2b even tho i can still do it without opener, it feels worse…

I dunno y but the games just feel worse overall

[mystic yoke]

by the way, is this just a discussion thread or a feedback thread? who's combing this thread for opinions and consensus

[tired flame]

I dont think there's a set of rules about that in the post guidelines

[quick sapphire]

osk was here earlier. So was Zap. Not personally seen the other mods but that doesn't mean they haven't been here while I wasn't here.

Lookin back I really hope osk does decide to shake up the 7 bag system. The amount of fun those matches were ( for me at least ) was just awesome.

[minor coral]

no reasonable consensus is going to be found in this thread, but there's no harm in letting people debate it here

if it's going to be a community decision, you'll hear about it

[quick sapphire]

But will we hear about it though? This is a text chat. osk ( or whoever announces it ) is gonna have to be planet sized loud for me to hear it from my bedroom.

Unless he announces it to everyone in VC.

Sorry Zudo ... I couldn't resist

[minor coral]

[quick sapphire]

At the very least I'm hoping for another round of testing. This time for longer than a day .

[slender torrent]

I dont mind, if its not on my only 2 free days

[grand topaz]

if 7+X ever becomes permanent, it'll be a significant "re-work" kind of change just like the stuff they do in Warframe every now and then to "rebalance the game's experience"

overall even if some things people had been relying on gets nerfed out of existence, the game continued to move on

i kinda miss Vazarin protective dash for example, it was one of the nerfs i really disliked, but they did make a better focus system afterwards, and Unairu is kinda just broken (it's PVE and i like the new Unairu)

there's always something new even if an old way of doing things is obsolete

at first the transition from 7 to 7+X would be strange, afterwards it'd be like "tetrio uses 7+X bag system." and people would just accept it as the way it is

[slender torrent]

Its not "accept"

its just bc aint no other free competitive tetris to play

[grand topaz]

jstris

which i personally don't play

i don't like the handling

[slender torrent]

"competitive"

in

versus

[grand topaz]

doesn't jstris also have that? i really don't play jstris like at all

only thing i know is the custom maps that help you train

[slender torrent]

if you think sprint, cheese, ultra a competitive in versus, ok

tbf I heard about an api or something like jstris+ that works for matchmaking

[tired flame]

I think this issue of 7 bag is mostly a tetrio issue because b2b levels are a thing here and not on jstris

I am trying to wrap my head around the momentum problem

[slender torrent]

I see no issue

[tired flame]

7+X if implemeneted one of the main goals is to make the early game less explosive/spikey right?

[slender torrent]

I really can only think that it was just to troll half of the players

but maybe

[fallow copper]

So why couldn’t you just randomize the first 2 bags instead of 5

[tired flame]

So that what i was thinking about

[fallow copper]

Don’t most openers happen in the first 2 bags anyways

[tired flame]

instead of stalling the game until 35 pieces

why not just fix the problem earlier

[fallow copper]

Or 3 I guess sometimes

[tired flame]

i am trying to think if 1 block or 1-2 lines of garbage spawned at the start of the round but keeping 7 bag

would have the same intent

or not

[slender torrent]

I would prefer
(7+1) *7 than that

[signal crypt]

someone pointed out that you can dpc with 7+1

so maybe more than that

[fallow copper]

[slender torrent]

its not like 3rd pc/dpc bag wasnt 7+1

imagine

[fallow copper]

What if you just randomized the things except for the T piece and I

Per bag

So people can find funky T spins and more casual players can still send the funny lines

[slender torrent]

well, I play to have fun for 10 minutes, not to be tortured for 40min

thats why im against 7+x

[grand topaz]

7+X exists to make the game's first 35 pieces stop being placed exactly the same way every single game at every single rank, where people need to memorize the piece placements to stand a chance against the other "opener mains" and by the time you do this you're U rank (top 6%) but that means the other 94% just get demolished by someone who can disproportionately fast do 120 APM which then devolves into 0.9 pps C- rank stacking.

and you look at the general case of "amateur" tournaments and they almost always start with LST opening or SDPC-DPC or SDPC-spin or stickspin every time.

[fallow copper]

Who is torturing you for 40 minutes

[signal crypt]

7+X still feels like a temporary solution

[grand topaz]

so it shakes things up

[slender torrent]

7+x did

[grand topaz]

well it only affects the first 35 pieces, after which it is back to "normal".

[tired flame]

I feel like you're trying to reframe it

[grand topaz]

it effectively fixes the "dying immediately in 10 seconds" aspect at lower ranks.

[tired flame]

but i dont think that's the main point

[mystic yoke]

isnt that your own skill issue hitting

[signal crypt]

you deal with 1 problem while you create a few more problem

[severe spindle]

7+x extends the games for so long it becomes pretty annoying to play

[grand topaz]

send more lines => game becomes less

[severe spindle]

It makes it seem like a task rather then a fun game

[grand topaz]

rounds weren't meant to be 10 seconds long

[severe spindle]

Early game also isnt nearly ad punishing and i like that ant the game

[signal crypt]

i understand that the opener issue is a thing, but making the first 35 pieces awkward is also not what i like about 7+X

[slender torrent]

I would say its skill deleted by the game

[mystic yoke]

what skill from mech

[tired flame]

yup I believe this is the crux of the issue

[severe spindle]

I like have an access to a bunch of garbage to send back

[slender torrent]

yes

[grand topaz]

pls explain what you mean

[mystic yoke]

7+X also affects freestyle

[slender torrent]

Not as does mech

[grand topaz]

true, but after 35 pieces it all becomes normal.

[severe spindle]

But thats after 35pieces..

[grand topaz]

so like, after ~20ish seconds

[mystic yoke]

it's not "board immediately becomes standard"

[grand topaz]

don't you have 4 pps? that's just 9 seconds

[mystic yoke]

it's "these pieces messed up my board, I have to commit sprinting for awhile longer to start tsding in earnest"

[signal crypt]

stacking feels really sketchy at the first 35 pieces because you have to account for the duplicate pieces

whereas i dont have to think much with normal 7bag

[tired flame]

that is kinda disingenious. You can't not say players have preffered openers because it does lead to certain board states they like to stack from. As it stands it's harder to do this on 7+X.

[severe spindle]

I dont..

[mystic yoke]

well that's also not healthy

[severe spindle]

I can hold 4pps for like 3sec

[mystic yoke]

"not thinking much" isnt the strength of normal

[signal crypt]

yeah

[grand topaz]

i dont have to think much
unironically sounds in favor of 7+X lmao

this is meant to be a puzzle game after all

[signal crypt]

i might want to reword that but

[mystic yoke]

Yea but that doesnt characterize my, winter, or cookie's points

[severe spindle]

Lmao

[signal crypt]

hard to describe how 7+X affects the opening

[severe spindle]

It feels awkward

[grand topaz]

you could theoretically do 10 line clears and then follow up with whatever you want.

technically 9 line clears because math.

[cloud mesa]

i think 7+X would kill kill openers but tki -> lost should stay, i found it really hard and unlikely to get into lst with 7+X

lst***

[grand topaz]

tki -> lst should stay,
i hope not

it turns every game the same at the start

[signal crypt]

its hard to do that since tki applies 7bag in mind

[cloud mesa]

yeah i know

which is why I’m against 7+X

[grand topaz]

and why i'm in favor 😄

[tight harbor]

like it is any different with 7+X

[grand topaz]

yes

[tight harbor]

everyone is just sprinting away the first 5 bags

[signal crypt]

yeah

[grand topaz]

i dunno, i made TST opener

and STSD opener

??

maybe you are sprinting the 5 bags away i dunno

[cloud mesa]

doesn’t 7+X promote sprint/4w

[tight harbor]

yep and not everyone is doing tki into lst in 7 bag as well

[cloud mesa]

cause i went up against a 2.8pps sprinter

[grand topaz]

true, the other people are doing sdpc-spin

[signal crypt]

the X ranks already argued that the 6-3 sprint for the for the first 35 pieces is pretty much the same as if the openers werent affected

[slender torrent]

Bro

I gotta be honest, If 7+x becomes obligated

[fallow copper]

You brought this on people, repent

[slender torrent]

I'll learn 6pps 3-6 and mech above it

[tight harbor]

it is also not the only thing

I am skimming single at the beginning

[signal crypt]

lol

[grand topaz]

it's almost every game...i count stickspin as sdpc-spin it has same damage output anyway

[slender torrent]

It def doesnt promote sprint to me

[grand topaz]

in 7+X i can't do hamburger upstack, like "extended MKO" or whatever but i think that's ok

[signal crypt]

because you mech

[slender torrent]

:3

[tired flame]

this is why #1233972737576276040 i wrote this

7+x at teh end

[tight harbor]

and ppl are just sprinting 5 bags away in 7+X anyway almost every game

[tired flame]

or atleast for the first bag

[slender torrent]

Bruh

[signal crypt]

i think that this idea is better

[mystic yoke]

try not to meme so much here

[slender torrent]

if its to play 6-3 I go to 40L not TL

[tight harbor]

we should test zombie's suggestion next

[tired flame]

nah

im sure they are thinking it through

and hope they find something more elegant

[tight harbor]

yep

[tired flame]

I dont think 7+x as it is solves the ineherent issue

[grand topaz]

it doesn't?

[mystic yoke]

who are the lower ranks here who still complain about stickspin

[tight harbor]

7+X is just minor inconvenience that reduces the depth rn

[grand topaz]

i played 19 sets and it did fix the issues

[mystic yoke]

what's the brand of opener mains that people complain about now

[tired flame]

yes i know you said this 5x times

[slender torrent]

They obliterated opener
they should next remove midgame

[grand topaz]

?? i don't get it

[tired flame]

It doesnt really make a point

[signal crypt]

the 6-3 sprint

[grand topaz]

you finally have to make your own piece placements instead of memorizing the first 4 bags for a free win

this is clearly better depth than it used to be

[mystic yoke]

i've never relied on the opener to kill

[fallow copper]

Become late game player

[tired flame]

it clearlyt means people will speedrun 35 pieces then play the game

[grand topaz]

but like, i didn't see that happening

[mystic yoke]

7+x rewards speed alot alot

[grand topaz]

some people c4w'd yes but it was counterable

[slender torrent]

when does that start

[tired flame]

Did i say c4w?

[signal crypt]

4m

[fallow copper]

Early game if you remove the two!

[tired flame]

this is why im saying you're being disingenious, other peopel have mentioned 9-0 6-3 sprint stride

[fallow copper]

[mystic yoke]

faster people dont have to muddy around with +x rng

[grand topaz]

can you even reliably 6-3 with 7+X 🤔

[mystic yoke]

yeah

[signal crypt]

yes

[slender torrent]

no it would be endgame

i think¿

[tight harbor]

I am trying to b2b chain with T spin in 7+X and it feels very rng in first 5 bags

[grand topaz]

that's.. the point

[tight harbor]

better to just sprint away the first 5 bags with a lil bit of tsds here and there

[mystic yoke]

that's an awful point

[grand topaz]

you need to work for your setups

[tired flame]

yup it's faster and more reliable

[tight harbor]

that's awful if that's the point

[tired flame]

hell if they sent some b2b i can use it

after the 35 pieces

[grand topaz]

but even if you just clear 35 pieces out that's fine

[tired flame]

[grand topaz]

personally that's why i liked the idea of 7+1 more (before i saw that people can PC-loop with that still anyway)

[tight harbor]

yep like wasting 2~3 Ts and sprinting

[signal crypt]

working for a setup thats full of rng is not really intuitive

[tight harbor]

gg

[fallow copper]

It is indeed game

[signal crypt]

given there are a lot more factors into stacking

[mystic yoke]

removing opener influence is different from making it all RNG

[tight harbor]

that's worse than midgame T piece usage

[grand topaz]

this is... not a real problem

compared to the problem that is being solved rn

[slender torrent]

removing opener is like removing half of pokemon types, change my mind

[grand topaz]

which is that S+ and below cannot guard against openers and it makes the game suck

[tired flame]

It is a problem introduced by the problem being solved

so it is a problem

[fallow copper]

So uh no one gave me feedback on my idea but could you not just do 1 T and I in each bag and have rest randomized

[mystic yoke]

ye

[slender torrent]

def no

[tired flame]

I don't get why you're trying to downplay other opinions

[grand topaz]

the real question is if it's really a "problem" at all, or just a change that people think "oh i can't do pattern-stacking easily immediately, therefore bad"

[signal crypt]

nah i think zombie's idea is a better solution

[fallow copper]

y

[tight harbor]

we should try zombie suggestion's next

[grand topaz]

there is inherent bias

[slender torrent]

It would ruin 7 bag

[grand topaz]

(good)

[slender torrent]

since the "x" is just a 7 bag mixed on the furst 5 bags

[mystic yoke]

idk how much you are reducing freestyle tsd to "pattern stacking"
LST is not the only upstack of tki

[fallow copper]

Wasted T moment

[slender torrent]

hold

unless TT start

[fallow copper]

Double T start

[slender torrent]

[fallow copper]

No T start

[grand topaz]

fun

[tight harbor]

skull

[slender torrent]

well tbf

[signal crypt]

skull

[slender torrent]

Early T is good to freestyle tspins overhangs

I dont see why no

[fallow copper]

Everyone knows X rank have a mental breakdown for wasting T

True story

[honest oriole]

No just the lst’ers

[signal crypt]

remmy reference

[mystic yoke]

just lsters

[fallow copper]

Hi dragon

[tight harbor]

it is not just wasting T

[slender torrent]

Its not a waste T if its from a waste bag

[honest oriole]

Hi

[tight harbor]

it is wasting half of the T

[fallow copper]

WazG qt

[tight harbor]

I don't mind wasting 1 T like every 5 bag or smething

[honest oriole]

But that t could’ve been used to b2b

[slender torrent]

No it couldnt

Its like saying not quading on first bag a waste I

./waste btb

[honest oriole]

Couldn’t you like technically not waste a t tho

[tight harbor]

you get the same amount of T in 5 bags in both 7 and 7+X

[honest oriole]

Like you get sijt and tsm

[tight harbor]

quad is negative volume

[honest oriole]

Not gonna happen but it could

[fallow copper]

Maybe the real 7 + X is the quads we lost on the way

[slender torrent]

ok do 40 btb without quading or waste T

[tight harbor]

impossible because quad is negative volulme

[slender torrent]

Its

not impossible tho

tst exists

[tight harbor]

????

what does it have to do with quad being negative volume

it is mathematically impossible to not waste I

[mystic yoke]

at least troll in #lobby niya

[slender torrent]

??

I thought you could infinite tst tho?

[tight harbor]

if you waste T yes

[mystic yoke]

itst is yeah

works

[tight harbor]

cuz tst is negative volume

[slender torrent]

so

isnt 40btb possible with no waste T

[tight harbor]

it is possible

you said no waste I too

[honest oriole]

If you can mix tst and tsd

[tight harbor]

[slender torrent]

so why this

[honest oriole]

No i to quads

[slender torrent]

I said no quad

[tight harbor]

ok yeah

then it's possible

[slender torrent]

I mean

possible it is

but it doesnt mean someone is doing it

[honest oriole]

You’d need some weird stack that lets you tst every like 4/5 tsds

[slender torrent]

But yeah backing on the waste T thing

[daring moss]

wrong chat sorry

[mystic yoke]

this isnt 7+x bag talk

pls go #tetra·league

[daring moss]

what 😭

[mystic yoke]

just ping everyone there

[mystic yoke]

not you

[slender torrent]

My point is if you got a TT, its not waste T if its literally minimum or cant be more optmized

or else I on no quad would be waste I

[mystic yoke]

hmm? that's not the correct way to say it

waste T and waste I are non-clearing placements

[slender torrent]

Tki have a non clear placement from I

[mystic yoke]

yes

doesnt change the definition

[slender torrent]

and no one gets sad on

wasting I

[mystic yoke]

cos there isnt enough stack for it

there is enough stack to avoid wasting T

one is aproblem, the other is not

[fallow copper]

I do

[mystic yoke]

that's why you dont see waste I phrase often, except in 9-0

[grand topaz]

i have replay of top X using 2 Ts to build fractal quad

pisses people off

[mystic yoke]

or 6-3

[slender torrent]

exactly, its used bc games have a rule, and its just the most optimal way to do it

[fallow copper]

[mystic yoke]

idk what you are saying niya

waste I and waste T are simple concept

is this an english problem

[slender torrent]

so aint no point on being mad at waste T on TT start, theres just no other way

thats what we are talking about

[mystic yoke]

ah, the other way is to have normal 7 bags

that is the exact reason for complaint

[grand topaz]

just get used to sometimes getting 2 Ts at the start lol

[mystic yoke]

or just do 7 bag with other changes

[slender torrent]

well but we are talking about wasting T on TT start

[grand topaz]

to have normal 7 bags
it's kinda established that regular 7-bag turns the game into mush for 90% of players

and even in U rank it is annoying to "counter openers" instead of freestyling lol

[mystic yoke]

into what?

[grand topaz]

mush

[mystic yoke]

who established that

[slender torrent]

Its just like using I on tki, ur gonna waste T to tsd cuz aint no other optimal usage

[mystic yoke]

i've been slow freestyler all my playtime

[grand topaz]

look at replays at lower ranks

A+ is doing DT cannon into TST tower

[mystic yoke]

lower rank replays are just giga awful freestyle

[grand topaz]

even C- rank is "trying to do SDPC-spin"

[mystic yoke]

cant even maintain quads

[grand topaz]

why would they maintain quads if they can just sdpc-spin

[tight harbor]

is it not annoying??

[grand topaz]

they don't even know they should be making quads

[tight harbor]

you don't even need to try to consciously think about countering

it just happens

[grand topaz]

lol i wish

it's always the same bs against early-O

[tight harbor]

I think countering is not correct way to describe it

[grand topaz]

"they hvae early O so i must TSD as they TSS and then guard the C-spin backup"

every single time

[tight harbor]

wtf who thinks like that

[tired flame]

where are you pulling this stat from?

[grand topaz]

and if i misdrop or fail the timingi t's "oh they got the SDPC DPC bye"

[mystic yoke]

huh?

[tight harbor]

just send lines send lines send more lines work

[spring minnow]

openers are used for more than free kills tho

[grand topaz]

i find that free kills is hte #1 reason and why both the openerers and the openereds keep getting tilted

"i did the 28 piece sequence and didn't win, bad game"

[fallow copper]

I think most people try and use them for free kills

[grand topaz]

"i don't even know what happened but i'm already dead, bad game"

[tired flame]

not cause 7 bag but b2b levels

I did once thought of increasing the b2b chain requirements for higher lvls

[mystic yoke]

if I see opponent having a fractal quad at 2 minutes, I will obviously cancel
opener is just a singular moment where it's obvious

[grand topaz]

make quads for b2b even with 7+X 👍

[fallow copper]

Damn they be summoning exodia

[tight harbor]

that just sounds like someone who doesn't want to learn how to play the game

[grand topaz]

learn what? lose to the same stickspin every single game? lol

[tired flame]

what what does this even mean?

[grand topaz]

there are so many other games to play instead of being destroyed by stickspin

[tight harbor]

learn to play the game

every beginner loses to stuffs they don't know anyway

[grand topaz]

openers are a design flaw that messes with user retention

[mystic yoke]

hmm?

dont invent points

[grand topaz]

the problem is that people in every rank end up using the same 28 pieces for the 28 piece sequence and otherwise don't know anything else. 120 APM falls down to 20

it is disproportionately overpowered + you just memorize the exact piece placements

[tight harbor]

how is that a problem?

[mystic yoke]

wtf is anything with "user retention" here

[tight harbor]

they play the way they enjoy the game

[grand topaz]

the whole point is that opener mains make the game miserable for most other players

[tight harbor]

no?

[tired flame]

That what you think

[grand topaz]

you can ask anyone "do you like losing to opener mains"

[tired flame]

i think it's cause the b2b levels make it too strong

[daring moss]

me when playing a way that completely defeats the original design of the game

[tight harbor]

I think you are just hearing the vocal ones

[tired flame]

b2b lvl 2 should be higher b2b requirement

[spring minnow]

i think a lot of people have brought up the clean transtition to midgame thats stunted due to 7+x

[tight harbor]

while most ppl don't really care

[mystic yoke]

ty piggy

[grand topaz]

me when playing a way that completely defeats the original design of the game
openers ^

[grand topaz]

but it's only 35 pieces.

you can figure something out.

at least it's not the same transition every single game (tki flattop => lst)

[tight harbor]

playing games in a way that isn't the intended way isn't inherently bad

[grand topaz]

openers however kind of are

[daring moss]

do you think life is meant to be predetermined?

[tight harbor]

"NOOOO they are not playing the game like I want them to"

[daring moss]

if yes: you are a government puppet

[quick sapphire]

Have you never heard the phrase "turned to mush"?

[mystic yoke]

he edited from much

[grand topaz]

i did accidentally typo and typed much initially

[quick sapphire]

oh

My mistake.

[grand topaz]

no, it was mine lol

even with 140 WPM sometimes i misdrop

[tight harbor]

misdrop real

[quick sapphire]

87 is my best. ||But I feel I'm pushing us off topic.||

[grand topaz]

which site is this

[daring moss]

not bad

[fallow copper]

Im capped at 115 wpm

[daring moss]

what website is that?

[quick sapphire]

https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/

[fallow copper]

But I don't have any urge to improve past there at the moment so

Pretty much from that point on I should be typing in words and not letters

[tired flame]

why dont you use monkeytype

[fallow copper]

and learn how to use the word delete hot command

[tight harbor]

I mean it doesn't really matter after 100 wpm anyway

[quick sapphire]

Aaaanyway 7+X ...

[tight harbor]

[grand topaz]

didn't make 140 😭

[fallow copper]

Things get spicy after 120

thats pretty much it though

I would say majority of people won't reach 110+

[daring moss]

this website is an L

[cyan forge]

2 minute break Now.

[daring moss]

60 seconds!?

i cannot type for this long

[tight harbor]

they can if they lookahead

[daring moss]

😭

[tight harbor]

read the queue

[grand topaz]

(majority of people type with like 45 dude)

[tight harbor]

anyway

[quick sapphire]

why the hell did I change the subject to typing tests...

[tight harbor]

we are getting off topic

[quick sapphire]

Stupid ninetales.

[grand topaz]

haha

[fallow copper]

Me increasing my wpm because I needed to flame people faster in real time

[grand topaz]

anyway 7+X

[daring moss]

most people can't think fast enough to type like 120 wpm im pretty sure

[long palm]

[fallow copper]

in games

[tight harbor]

yep

that's why I said it doesn't matter

after 100wpm

[cyan forge]

unless you want to send a giant flaming paragraph

[quick sapphire]

Well ... * Ahem! * So then. I think 7+X was a massive change to TL and one that was certainly welcomed with open arms by me. It reignited the fire inside me for TL.

I lost around 40% of my matches I played within the timeframe but I can safely say I never tilted once.

It was awesome!

[fallow copper]

Anyone see that video where he types with the auto correct thing

seems kinda cool

[grand topaz]

"NOOOO they are not playing the game like I want them to"
this claim actually applies in U rank for sure, countering openers every single time you see early O is super annoying, but in lower ranks it's effectively insta-win cheat code for the opener-main

and even in low X i see 4pps 0:10 length games

the game ends before it starts

sometimes i lose in 6 seconds to an SDPC/DPC main

[tight harbor]

0

it has started

[grand topaz]

there is no game to be played because it just ends

[quick sapphire]

From all the messages I've seen so far in this thread ( and granted I haven't seen all of them obviously ).

The main problem people see in "opener maining" is that it isn't really versus. It's just blitz or die.

Do the opener as fast as possible to destroy your opponent or you just die because your main way to win didn't work.

[cyan forge]

626 cpm

[tight harbor]

I mean midgame is also just "ds, do T spins and tetris until opponent die" if you reduce it like that

and everything in versus can be broken down into singleplayer

[tired flame]

So more personal thoughts.

I never thought of openers as an issue. My view of them when I started TL with no prior knowledge of openers was that 4wide starts was more annoying and painful.

Will 7+x make 4w more common?

will that be better or worse than how it is currently

is waht im mainly worried about

i also reached a point where 4w isnt the issue for me anymore

so im neutral but it was frustrating when starting out

[tight harbor]

same

[quick sapphire]

People in discord seem to think so but from what I've seen within 7+X's timeframe I had maybe 2 four widers.

Maybe they're just not as common in with 7+X

[tired flame]

My view is it's easier to stride 35 pieces at around S+/SS+

then play

than it is to try to 4w

[quick sapphire]

I don't count pieces as I play.

I just ... play.

[tired flame]

cause literally 2-3 tsd/quads cancels a full board of 4w

and its not hard to 9-0 or 6-3 quad spam

even with 7+x

but for lower ranks?

[tight harbor]

I also don't count pieces but the change is easier to notice

[tired flame]

I was gonna say after you wrote your long wall of text yesterday ninetales

[tight harbor]

I am definitely out of first 5 bags if the game starts to become fun

[quick sapphire]

It will definitely negatively impact people at lower ranks with difficulty in stacking as it is.

[tired flame]

but i didnt want to argue

that your opponents tried to freestyle

the 7+X

my opponents never did we all stride

to 35

it's a bit different

[quick sapphire]

To be honest. Having 7+X for just the first two bags would make me just as happy.

[tight harbor]

I am that one guy who tries to do funny stuffs but most ppl just sprint

[quick sapphire]

Anything to kill the "kill" openers.

[tight harbor]

and sprinting is a lot more effective

[quick sapphire]

[tired flame]

So this 7+x will likely affect everyone differently

so more feedback from other skill ranges

probably is needed

[tight harbor]

yep

[tired flame]

atleast imo before even deciding on a change

[tight harbor]

currently we are just getting feedback from S~X

[tired flame]

I would absolutely hate 4w becoming meta

[tight harbor]

not that much from lower ranks

[quick sapphire]

I don't remember if I put it in my "wall of text" but I think they should do to the bag system what they do to FTX's

[tired flame]

no you didnt

[daring moss]

off topic but does anyone wanna watch me get S+

[tired flame]

I also think peopel trying to downplay others thougths/feedback is kinda 💀

hence why i didnt say anything

[daring moss]

S+ is my dream rank ❤️

[tired flame]

I can tell you had a blast though

[tight harbor]

one more run for Utale pls

[quick sapphire]

Maybe it should work like this.

- = 7 Bag
- = 7+X ( 2 bags )
- = 7+X ( 5 bags )

[daring moss]

this is actually a stellar idea

[tight harbor]

ummm aren't we trying to solve opener problem at lowe rank?

[long palm]

so it would be 7+4 and 7+3???

[tight harbor]

or am I mistakened

[long palm]

gah

[tired flame]

I dont think different rulesets

is the way to go

[quick sapphire]

This way people get adept at stacking before they're put under more pressure by bag randomization.

[daring moss]

also eliminates my theory that new tetris players to tetrio would quit cause just because its different

[quick sapphire]

You can't solve an opener problem at lower ranks without impacting their already inability to stack cleanly by giving them mixed bags.

[tired flame]

(7+x) 2 bags just sounds like 14 bag

[long palm]

yeahhhh

[tight harbor]

yeah but making 7+X at mid/high rank doesn't really change anything

[tired flame]

i think 1 14 bag so the speedrun is faster would work too

[long palm]

and 7+4 for a bag is awful

[tight harbor]

since openers aren't really a problem anymore

[tired flame]

thats not true also

[tight harbor]

starting from S rank most ppl don't really struggle with opener from what I see

[tired flame]

im sure you can tell with zhun

replying to everything

[spiral vessel]

..

[tight harbor]

I mean yeah there are some ppl who have trouble but

[spiral vessel]

ok so you can 9-0 with 7+x, everyone knows that..

[quick sapphire]

They might not be a problem for you but there is definitely a lot of people ( me included ) that fall prey to 2.5pps opener mains.

( Yeah yeah ... )

[grand topaz]

and a lot of people wanted 9-0 open to be viable

and not get stickspun to death

every single game with early O

[grand topaz]

i find openers to still be a problem even in 24.4k, so

[spiral vessel]

learn to counter when

[grand topaz]

i shouldn't have to counter memorized BS

it's the opposite of what the game wants to be

[tight harbor]

I have seen someone surviving stickspin with 9-0 even at speed disadvantage

[spiral vessel]

stickspin is pretty weak tbh

like

[tight harbor]

not just one game or two

[spiral vessel]

if they dont get super rng spike, its not that hard to survive

[grand topaz]

stickspin wins quite many games in S+ and below

[quick sapphire]

The minute I see early against opener mains I pretty much know I'm dead.

[grand topaz]

in SS you kinda get the opponent awareness to counter but you still don't have to like it

[fallow copper]

It'd probably be more common if some pro person said its strong or something

usually takes some time for meta to shift

[tight harbor]

I like how they serve as skill check

[grand topaz]

"skill"

[long palm]

yeah haven't we proved that in our friendly 1v1's

[quick sapphire]

[grand topaz]

memorizing 28 piece placements with EXACT position

and executing it with 3.5 pps

they force you to do the same thing every game because they are doing the same thing

[spiral vessel]

skissue tbh

[grand topaz]

and by the time you can counter it, you are U rank (top 6%)

[fallow copper]

Isn't the solve on SDPC easy af

for pc

[tight harbor]

no??

[spiral vessel]

uh no

[fallow copper]

isn't it like 3 solutions

[spiral vessel]

its a decent amount of memorization

[fallow copper]

or is that the dpc

[grand topaz]

so anyone below the top 6%, so 94% of people, have a bad experience against "opener mains"

[spiral vessel]

def no lol

[grand topaz]

it is a well-known problem

[fallow copper]

for one of the solves

[spiral vessel]

some common solves but

[tight harbor]

not everyone can do opener at 3pps right away

[fallow copper]

Someone give me a list real quick