7+X-Bag in TL

[queen barn]

gained 30 tr lost 30 vs

[primal gale]

@naive hare next block origin major?

[tired flame]

why did they switch to taht after 35 pieces?

saw reallynotsomeone also say this

but i dont get it

I had normal midgame after

[mystic yoke]

that's exposing a skill gap, not changing playstyles

[grand topaz]

I did also encounter some inf-ds but it wasn't stale

[primal gale]

because the momentum is just gone

[severe spindle]

I gains 10tr lost 0.3pps 30 on apm 42 on vs

[grand topaz]

I also made STSD / c-spin if I could

[dusk forge]

I hope this will not be permanently implanted

[primal gale]

it's hard to switch the momentum from cheese to clean

[severe spindle]

I really dont like this change

[primal gale]

once the momentum is cheese it's rlly hard to get playing clean again

[queen barn]

downstack faster

[tired flame]

ah i see, i usually kill momentum right after openers anyways so i didnt notice

[primal gale]

I played under 70 apm 150 vs 💀

[mystic yoke]

this is true, most players will not ds or cancel well

[grand topaz]

You rely on 4 pps Mr t-spin Dt for a lot of your wins, so I'm not that surprised you wouldn't like it.

[quick sapphire]

Not everyone will like the change.

But nothing osk does will have absolutely everyone "like" it.

There will always be likes and dislikes.

[grand topaz]

But from the game's perspective, the goal isn't to let people repeat the same pattern each game

It fixes the game for SS and lower ranks

S+ people actually have fun etc

[tired flame]

How so?

openers never been an issue for me when i started TL it was 4w spam

more annoying

[grand topaz]

It's not 2.2 SDPC/DPC pps into "death"

[royal galleon]

You can't cheese lower ranks by bursting a strong opener

[hardy beacon]

so wat if it is sdpc dpc into death

the player who does it earned the win by practicing the skill

[royal galleon]

It requires more fundamental stacking skills

[grand topaz]

Results in bad game

[hardy beacon]

no it doesnt

[grand topaz]

I'm glad to see it stop becoming a skill

[tired flame]

well 1 year ago, it was jsut me learning what tki is and stopping it for the vast majority of rounds

[grand topaz]

It's just bad design that guideline even allows this

[royal galleon]

If skill is determined by how well you can opener then that's not a good game

[hardy beacon]

its only wat the whole game is building on ever since the bag system was first put in popular tetris

just throw it away cos players dont like losing

great idea

[grand topaz]

Well it was a mistake and this isn't even tetris

[tired flame]

it's not thrown away, just delayed by 35 pieces, but i do get your point. It feels really strange to not 7 bag from the start

[royal galleon]

LOL

[winged tartan]

ok this guy is incapable of having a productive conversation

[long palm]

Yeah so uhm, 7+X will take some time for the community to adapt

[grand topaz]

Tbh 7 bag awareness also starts showing up in like, S+ish

So for about 70(?)% of players it's still a gimmick that just makes the game be "oh I died to something"

[grand topaz]

people will have to keep their ranks without preset 4-bag openers

[tired flame]

ngl if i didnt have this discord identitfy openers and link me to four.lol I do wonder if I would had noticed i had to deal with openers blind somehow or managed to

and also general counter tips

[long palm]

Yep

[quick sapphire]

I keep seeing "4W" being brought up in discussions with 7+X but I don't think I had more than 1 or 2 matches against 4 widers in the entire day. I could be wrong but I defo don't remember more than 2.

[tired flame]

the ones i did see, dont know how to 4w at all so idk

[quick sapphire]

Maybe it's just my luck I dunno.

[tired flame]

in your stream i mean

[grand topaz]

I encountered 5 games of 4w out of about 140

[long palm]

I never got 4wided probably because I played like 3 friendly matches

[grand topaz]

And lost to it 1 time because I got too cocky

[quick sapphire]

If anything. I won more rounds running 9-0.

[winged tartan]

jeez, 140 games in 24 hours sounds crazy lol

[grand topaz]

Well, games, not sets

[winged tartan]

lol

oops

[grand topaz]

I played about 16 sets of TL but I can check

[tired flame]

games = sets

rounds are parts of games/sets

[winged tartan]

yeah i'd call them rounds

[grand topaz]

oh

[tired flame]

I do see people mix them around but its gets confusing

[grand topaz]

Then I got 4w'd only in about 5 rounds

[royal galleon]

There's a lot of different areas you can have skill in in a versus block stacker, like downstack, upstack, speed, efficiency, opening, timing, etc.

[grand topaz]

Out of about 150 rounds

It's 19 sets

I checked just now

[queen barn]

i only got four wided once...

damn you badgoblin...

(skill issue tbh)

[golden drum]

Real

[royal galleon]

With regular 7-bag, you put too much of an emphasis on the opening. Since you know you're getting the same 7 pieces in the first bag you can easily train and use an opener, which improves speed.

And if you can get to the same level with just training opening as someone who has trained in multiple other areas of the game, the game is not balanced

[naive hare]

LOL

SO TRUE

i actuallyhad that idea

but i really hate the 7+x bag so idk

[primal gale]

let it be known

I called it

[royal galleon]

7+x bag fixes this by making the opening not as concrete. You can still make an effective opening out of the pieces you see, but it's not the same every time

I've gotten so many perfect clears with my time, simply because I trained my PC vision to not rely on PCO all the time

If you're able to train your opening to adapt to the 7+3 at the start, then more power to you, I wholly respect it

[naive hare]

its really weird i just try to make a tki shape as much as i can

[royal galleon]

If you have an early I there's a lot of ways you can make a shape similar to TKI

[naive hare]

yeah

[royal galleon]

but like I said, it takes more awareness of the queue

[naive hare]

oh totally i find myself board watching a lot more as well

it has some good sides

[royal galleon]

something that isn't as necessary as in regular 7-bag

[grand topaz]

7+X opener moment

[rugged ether]

tbh some openers taught me how to do certain setups and improve my vision in general. i feel like i would struggle learning some of these without them (maybe)

[naive hare]

stsd

[naive hare]

yes i also had a hard time adapting at first

[dusky rose]

this is still basically freestyle

[grand topaz]

yes it is

[sharp condor]

openers can be freestyle

[royal galleon]

also do be careful about floor stsd, I don't want you to get the 1 in 10

[sharp condor]

i do

[grand topaz]

i'm used to it by now

[rugged ether]

L spin fix for the win

[naive hare]

horror

[royal galleon]

honestly, it even affects the 6-3 opening

[naive hare]

DUDE SERIOUSLY

I KEPT TRYING TO DEFAULT BACK TO 6-3

AND I CANT

[grand topaz]

it's weird because i never stacked like that lmao

[royal galleon]

just upstacking is not as easy to do, needs some more awareness

[grand topaz]

well not until i learned extended-sdpc

but i don't really need it

[royal galleon]

at the start that is

[naive hare]

pov you stack so high ur opponent sends 1 t spin and u die

[open lion]

tbh some people like the new bag cause they're good at it

[naive hare]

gimmick users in the chatr

[royal galleon]

Rise up

[naive hare]

AHAHAHAHAH

ive had that happen to me before out of careless mistakes

im just 3 pps power stacking and not making my stack go downnnnnnnnn

[dusky rose]

id delete my account if that happened to me and i watched the replay

[slender torrent]

finally no more of this 7+x stuff

[open lion]

cursed light mode

[fallow copper]

This bag thing funny because in low elo people just lost the ability to stack

So its just full of cheese players when I tried it

But the games so cursed when you get to the top because you're just praying you get some line blocks for quads and the game says no early

Overall though I think it was pretty fun when both sides played like humans though

[queen barn]

fun fact: the x rank vs average decreased by 6 over the course of the 7+x bag TL

from ~234.9 vs to ~228.5 vs

[winged tartan]

yeah honestly that's what i was most interested in

[queen barn]

coincidence?

[winged tartan]

how do the fanmade opener stats compare

[opal hamlet]

X rank just opener mains confirmed?

[queen barn]

real

[opal hamlet]

osk ruined tl now

[hybrid depot]

honestly osk should do some more test days

[wet vine]

could be decreased more, it's only the fact that only some people actually queued that the average wasn't pulled down by much

[cinder vapor]

Like I mentioned in my previous post. One day simply isn't enough time to see anything other than a kneejerk reaction to the change. You'd need a couple months at the bare minimum to see how the meta shifts

Honestly I find the change in stats to be rather interesting. I'd say changed my playstyle a bit from doing Sailboat and Hachispin to instead just seeing if I spotted anything funky and if not just doing 9-0 though I feel like I wasn't spotting actual midgame T-Spin setups as often as I normally would. Just to show some bot stats from 10/4 as an example here:

[wet vine]

so u became less plonky and more inf ds?

less op ofc

[cinder vapor]

I use my openers to counterspike though once I get into the mindset of doing T-spins I will try to maintain that b2b pressure. Whereas with yesterday i just reverted to my old playstyle before I learned any openers and transitioned into T-spins where I found them easily.

[fallow copper]

All the opener mains getting called out fr

If this goes through will rank reset?

[cinder vapor]

Probably not. People's TR will adjust over time and those who refuse to play will just lose their ranks

[wet vine]

a reset would be nice but ngl, most people's rank will just be around the same

[grand topaz]

opener mains would re-adjust to their real stats' rank according to their real APM

personally i went from 24.4k to 24.4k (briefly touched 24.5k) so i guess there is variability but not that much to warrant a reset imo

[boreal drift]

Yeah this thread has now hit 10x it's original message pre 7+x

[final nexus]

I remember I used to read all new messages in this thread, until yeah

[winged tartan]

i technically scrolled through everything

doesn't mean i bothered to try and comprehend all the bad math

[wanton mulch]

release new season NOW

[grand topaz]

i will forever stand by the claim that openers are a game design flaw, and it's fascinating that just mixing up the order of the first 5 bags like that can so drastically invalidate this problem and make the game more fun at all levels of play

[raw ice]

this game mode taught me im coping and i need to learn openers (i gained 600 tr)

[winged tartan]

yeah i was thinking about https://youtu.be/zk3S3o1qOHo?t=501
i know it's never been tetr.io's "fundamental design" to prevent openers, but it still feels relevant for some reason

mainly the bits about how people just had to start playing the game with a wiki open in a browser tab to switch to every second

[opal hamlet]

Ruining the thrill of “are these multipliers gonna make it” by directly showing the result, but the info is technically there to calculate by hand for the mults

[winged tartan]

that's......not what i timestamped

[long palm]

Mhm yeah… it’s kind of the same with openers

You might just look at a fumen for an opener

[winged tartan]

you type it at the beginning, with a space afterwards

too late now

[grand topaz]

and then as a competitive 1v1 game, you have people who either 1.) don't know harddrop/fourlol so they don't know what to look for, they just lose to something 2.) those who don't really want to memorize a 28-piece sequence to "win"

[long palm]

Yep

[opal hamlet]

Sorry didn’t check timestamp

busy in fz99

[grand topaz]

technically if you talk to people in S+/SS they said they had a lot more fun

i also heard "i'm still trying to force DT cannon, sometimes it works" from S- rank which i found funny

[long palm]

lol

[grand topaz]

well some lower ranks did also say "now the games last longer and there is more cheese"

but the kind of garbage you get is the kind of garbage you're sent, and APM greatly correlates with rank

[wanton mulch]

just played a 7+x game and it feels great honestly
Sure, game plays longer, but I can 'play' the game instead of making the same pattern over and over
normal matches when early o, stressed me out because I have to make sdpc pattern and hope not to misdrop.
But in 7+x, I can play from the midgame (although there were some players who squeezed out pc patterns, but it wasn't much of a big deal)
Also this could be my personal experience, but It seems I don't have a issue with having cheese phase?
All my games eventually lead to a clean well battle instead of cheese inf ds games (this kinda fluctuates with the opponent so I would need more matches to have a better opinion on this)

While I do agree "not being able to beat opener phase" is a clearly a skill issue (which includes not misdropping at all), I would like to state this:

You can tell b- rank who hates opener, "you have skill issue", but what's the point if that person doesn't enjoy the game?

I do think this also applies to the other side as well, I understand there are people who enjoy playing the opener phase.
But I think it's quite extreme to say 'I don't enjoy the game if there is no opener phase'...

also i do 3pps sdpc and take some free wins btw

[final nexus]

What's cool is that there are still opportunities to build tki or mko which are the only openers that matter to me

[wet vine]

only first bag for mko

tki sucks in 7+x but good for a start

[final nexus]

It's supposed to be more freestyle though

[grand topaz]

i made TST => TSM opener in 7+x

once

[wet vine]

real tki ends with more hanging tspin

or pc

i mean mko

[final nexus]

I guess yeah there are queues that ruin it

[grand topaz]

yea but then you make something else

[final nexus]

Actually if you're fine with t overhang than you probably can make tspin most of the time

[wet vine]

ngl from my games and ones ive watched, 7+x didn't make the rounds longer at all...

[cinder vapor]

They definitely made my rounds longer though that's more to do with me punishing certain openers with counter-pressure.

[dire osprey]

i generally agree with the sentiment that opener maining and 4pps sdpc spam are pretty unhealthy for the game (skill should come from interacting with the opponent), but deleting the option entirely from the game feels a bit like pulling the rug from under the players have learned to play that way and relied on it since that's what the game mechanics have rewarded until now.

in my eyes this kind of change can be harmful because it addresses an issue by deleting it from play, rather than creating more viable counters, or lowering the value cap/adding nuance to said option (openers).

with that out of the way i will say the 7+x games i played yesterday felt good after getting over the intial awkwardness. not having to fight opener spam was a welcome change of pace and c4w has become stronger since it's less queue dependant than most other options and one of its main counters is dead.

I think c4w balance-wise is in quite a good spot - it's strong with clear strengths and weaknesses, but people rarely complain about it being too strong, much less no skill and uninteractive. I think it's worth looking into some other ideas that don't directly attack the ability to do openers or stack a certain way, but instead tone them down and add nuance, similar to the combo multiplier change that nerf/reworked c4w

some ideas to get the ball rolling:

• both players start with two lines of clean garbage (even parity so pc's are still possible, but more difficult)
• both players start with 4 lines of clean garbage that are wounded for 10s
• all attacks are 1/2'ed and passthrough for the first 5 secs (reason: passthrough to enable stopping pc loops, 1/2 attack so the pc looper can't just speed diff you)
• pc's are nerfed to 6 lines
• attacks start at 1/2x and scale to 1x by 10 secs
• any kind of similarly *reverse ramping LCD (though i imagine you guys don't want to touch this parameter until charsys comes out)

[cinder vapor]

I had found using basic tech as openers (stuff like STSD, DT, C-spin, etc) worked better than trying an actual opener just because you only need a few pieces to correctly perform them.

[rigid zenith]

that i can definitely agree with

[wet vine]

someone finally agreed with my sentiments, i like it cuz it prevents opener but midgame feels weird (or for him "but also it prevents midgame tech like bag counting")

[sharp condor]

there are some problems to this, from what i've read the main problem is something like stickspin in lower ranks

[dire osprey]

its a good chance for all players to learn midgame and macro

[sharp condor]

i guess the nerfed attack things work at higher ranks too but not at lower ranks

[solemn grove]

4w in general became an issue in 7+x, since there's no opener loop to counter it which was a viable option in 7-bag there's no other way to counter it other than your own 4w or hope your opponent's real bad at it

[cinder vapor]

"but also it prevents midgame tech like bag counting")
That would be incorrect. After the initial bags (35 pieces) you will be at the exact same position as a normal game.

[solemn grove]

there's no combo rework to be done because tetrio already has it reworked from the start

[dire osprey]

i think like archina said it's a bit too early to draw conclusions like this. is c4w stronger? yes. is it so strong that it's a problem? that is a different question entirely

[dire osprey]

i was not suggesting another combo rework, but a change that targets openers in a similar way that the combo rework targetted c4w

[solemn grove]

true, we don't have much data yet

[solemn grove]

ah okay

[cinder vapor]

4w is the only strategy that particularly received an indirect buff as like TNT mentioned it's main checks are specific openers. If you can TSS though you can still harm 4w by applying heavy pressure afterwards. It's more difficult, yet definitely possible.

[wet vine]

idk how to explain it, but literally midgame feels way too weird, even when i freestyle in normal 7bag, it doesn't feel that bad

[sharp condor]

yea i agree lol

it completely throws off my bag intuition

[wet vine]

i think gyan explained it nicely?

[cinder vapor]

That would likely be a mindset issue. Beyond the opening phase it's literally the exact same midgame

[sharp condor]

5

it's 35 pieces, 5 of each piece

[dire osprey]

opening is made weird so you get into midgame into an unfamiliar way which throws me off is what i find

[rigid zenith]

57

[sharp condor]

lol oops

[wet vine]

cookie are u fine? lol

[sharp condor]

discord being funny i promise

[wet vine]

i saw that multiple edits in like 1 sec

[rugged ether]

"opener gaming" in 7+x

[sharp condor]

i edited and it edited back somehow

[wet vine]

hmmm nah, i tried getting rid of the mindset, after like 1-2 min, definitely yeah but even with 7+x, rounds still ends at like 40-70 sec

[sharp condor]

it's not the same midgame because the transition from opener to midgame is heavily affected

[solemn grove]

well, here's my thoughts

• starting with garbage still doesn't resolve any tspin reliant opener, sure it prevents pcs but stickspin / sdpc-spin is still a meta here
• passthrough also comes with the same problem, only now it's worse, you can't defend
• attacks starting at 1/2 could be a fix, the only problem i could think of is if the opener main waits the 1/2 period out while using a tspin reliant opener which can be brutal for low-rank players who can't top out the opener main before that happens
• pcs nerfed to 6 lines does work for pco dpc sdpc all that, but again tspin reliant openers are still viable
• ramping LCD?

[wet vine]

even with 7+x tiki can still somehow get like 20 b2b wtf

[sharp condor]

lol

[rigid zenith]

i dont want to say that the transition from opener to midgame is not THAT affected because this comes from a top player’s perspective

[sharp condor]

well yea only the first 35 pieces are changed

so if you can make ur way through it and keep ur bag intuition then you can just play normally

[solemn grove]

yeah, it's really hard to figure out if you're out of 7+x

[dire osprey]

Line Clear Delay

[wet vine]

i skim sooo much even after that 35 pieces

[rugged ether]

for me it's like either i find nice setup first few bags or i don't and i skim until 7 bag and then its b2b fiesta

[cinder vapor]

Step 1: check the left of your board to see if pieces >=35.

Step 2: profit.

[wet vine]

ngl this is one thing i learned from this 7+x day, and that is u rely so much on intuition when playing, I barely read queue in normal 7 bag

[solemn grove]

that could encourage long stacking, some openers with long stacking periods still counter it though like say ms2 and dt

[solemn grove]

kinda breaks the flow tbh, i never look at stats on either board until it's like the end of the game

[sharp condor]

yea exactly

in my head i have a every 7 piece rhythm with the bags

so i have a sense of what pieces are coming up

but now i have no clue what's going on and when i'm out of 7+x

like obviously it's after 35 pieces

but i'm not really counting that when i play lol

and i don't want to be staring at the piece count until it hits 35

[cinder vapor]

I technically do though its not a guideline rhythm I follow subconsciously but rather TGM lol

[solemn grove]

btw you guys bag count? for me it's just "i placed a t now, gotta wait for another bag later" or "if i place this j at the well, i can't place another j on this other well" except when rng happens

[cinder vapor]

Basically what I do

I just don't expect to see a piece for a little bit if it appeared recently

[wet vine]

that's how i can play without reading queue

[grand topaz]

just look at the 35th piece and be like "ok it's 7-bag now" 🤷

the game tells you the number of pieces you've placed

[grand topaz]

it wouldn't be much different than timing your zone in TE:C zone battle so that when you finish your zone, you reach 60k score and send phase-3 garbage

altho the top-top-tier players, they don't really care they just send infinite amount of garbage and you die lmao

[unreal sky]

i agrée that the extra pieces make the flow of opener weird now

[grand topaz]

that's by design

[unreal sky]

or at least that's what i noticed by playing like 8ish games

especially if there's extra t s or z

[sharp condor]

this definitely breaks my flow

like i have to be checking until it hits 35

[unreal sky]

but i still think the advantage of opener nerf outweighs whatever this weirdness is

[sharp condor]

otherwise it's like im at 43, uhh 43 - 35 = 8, ok so i have 1 piece placed or somehting

like i dont wanna do those mental gynmastics either

[solemn grove]

to me instead of opener then midgame, in 7+x there's just no opener phase, it's essentially replaced with upstacking

[grand topaz]

i mean you can be like me and just place blocks without really looking at the piece count

but i'm 24.4k so

[sharp condor]

no clue but it's not working for me

[unreal sky]

on an unrelated but kind of funny note one of my friends' match history looks like this now

😭

[quick sapphire]

As of right now with votes being so tight I dont think it will be considered.

We really needed a longer timeframe

[sharp condor]

lol

[grand topaz]

it's just like initial placement matches

[sharp condor]

ninetales i don't think this is a democratic process

osk is just using this thread to gather feedback

[grand topaz]

the problem is asking people in the top 10% "hey do you like this change" while the primary player base is in the other 90%

[rugged spear]

i think there should be more proper warning before just throwing pretty game changing mechanics into tl

[sharp condor]

yea i think this change is targetted at lower ranks right

[quick sapphire]

I know that but you can't expect me to believe he isn't considering the votes too.

[sharp condor]

top 10% players tend to have less of a problem with an opener

[grand topaz]

haha

opener is actively the worst part of the game imo

[sharp condor]

like i saw a lot of people saying the problem is uninteractive stickspin gaming in B ranks

[rugged spear]

like, maybe a popup like those update popups when you enter the game for the first time since

[grand topaz]

in every rank

[sharp condor]

i feel like the sample size is way too low

[quick sapphire]

It is indeed

[grand topaz]

no thanks openers suck

[sharp condor]

opinion

[grand topaz]

so is yours

[sharp condor]

i'mnot saying its not lol

[grand topaz]

"high ranks have no problem with opener" i do

am i high rank? not sure lmao

is 24.4k high

[sharp condor]

i didn't say they dont have no problem

but throughout this thread i've seen a lot of top top players saying they actually think openers add more depth

[rugged spear]

tend to

not all

[unreal sky]

my take is that 7+x should be permanent in tl in some form (maybe with some modifications, eg filter some bags because extra tsz starts can be problematic)
sprint and blitz should stay untouched

[solemn grove]

yes but you could still face problems with opener mains at that level

[rugged spear]

i think the transition is too sudden

[grand topaz]

by depth, do you mean repeat same pattern over and over from the first piece to the last for every bag pre-determined

how is that depth

[sharp condor]

if you want to nerf looping then do something like reduce pc damage or something lol

[rugged spear]

and the bags really affect how the game is played, based on what pieces occur in future bags you don't even know

[sharp condor]

but i was under the impression this change is targetted towards stickspin and stuff

i have no problem with nerfing looping with something like that

but i don't like how this completely affects my opener gameplay

[grand topaz]

it is geared against repeating the same pattern over and over from the start

so every 3 or 4-bag opener

[sharp condor]

ah

i thought you meant repeating as in looping

[grand topaz]

and i think that includes LST opening

[solemn grove]

false, you can time your attacks to prevent another pc, you can downstack fast, you can make another opener to counter (sdpc easily counterable by a single t-spin since a tss fails to block a tsd and thus breaks the loop), etc

[sharp condor]

yea there is lots of counterplay to openers, especially at a top10% level

[grand topaz]

"can you TKI with 3.5 pps" very depth

[sharp condor]

i see the argument against openers at lower ranks but at top 10% there is no excuse to learning counterplay

[unreal sky]

from my experience you can still lst sometimes with 7+x

but t parity screws it up a lot

[sharp condor]

what is the alternative with the new changes

[grand topaz]

it's annoying and objectively the worst part of the game

[rugged spear]

no

[sharp condor]

it is not objectively the worst part of the game lol

that is an opinion

[grand topaz]

look at every rank of play and see that it is

[rugged spear]

?

[sharp condor]

how lol

[wet vine]

yeah i have problem with sdpc people but even then i would rather have them in my life

[quick sapphire]

Overall I've already made my own POV as both fair and unfair as I can make it

#1225191549881810965 message

[rugged spear]

"objectively {some subjective statement}" ?

[wet vine]

or i might just be maso

[grand topaz]

only people who actually execute 3.5 pps whatever into [any backup tactics that vary from C- stacking to 9-0 at every rank] like openers

[wet vine]

prefering to get destroyed

[sharp condor]

you are presenting these sweeping opinions as facts

[unreal sky]

i mean just bc counterplay exists doesn't mean that it's a balanced part of the meta

[sharp condor]

from what i've seen in this thread a lot of non-opener mains like openers too

[grand topaz]

you say that about my stance, but people saying "opener adds depth" does it? how is that a fact

[sharp condor]

i didn't say it's a fact

[solemn grove]

from the words of almighty opener god smolfeesh:

"playing openers alone is a refusal to play the game properly, but also not strategizing around opener mains is also a refusal to play the game properly"

[sharp condor]

i never presented their opinion as fact lol

i just repeated what they said

[grand topaz]

the problem is that "relying on openers" is "playing the game properly" when it was never meant to be like that(?)

thanks to 7+X you do not rely on openers you play the game instead

no piece memorization you just play

[quick sapphire]

I like openers but I don't like the results of a match to be determined by a players capability to do an opener.

[rugged spear]

but tetris is patterns game

[sharp condor]

i like regular 7bag because i can tki and go into a midgame i'm familiar with

[rugged spear]

are you not allowed to box because it's a memorised pattern 😢

[unreal sky]

i agree with this, i feel like with 7+x though we're more questioning what "properly" is supposed to mean

[grand topaz]

and so you grab a notebook to see "which opener people invented" memorize it and execute it with 4 pps? where is the pattern seeking

[rugged ether]

tspins setups are forbidden now because it's a memorized setup

[unreal sky]

do openers go against the essence of how tetrio should play

[sharp condor]

i think lst is pattern seeking

[rugged spear]

opener lst is less

[grand topaz]

why does it look exactly the game for the first 5 bags then 🤔

[rugged spear]

because there aren't any other patterns that work

[sharp condor]

lol

what do you think patterns are

[grand topaz]

yeah 7+X adds more patterns for first 5 bag

[sharp condor]

🤔

[grand topaz]

more variety more gaming

i'm sold and should be doing other things, hf lmao

[sharp condor]

from what i've seen 7+x drastically lowers the variety

[rugged spear]

it's mostly just 9-0 and 6-3

[rugged ether]

i agree with this

7+x "opener phase" is literally always the same

kinda boring

[sharp condor]

yea lol

players better than me are able to still find tsd chains sometime

[tough wagon]

nah there's definitely more variety, it's very fun for me the first couple bags

[sharp condor]

or even make a freestyle cspin

[sharp condor]

you are good at freestyle 😭

[rugged spear]

i think the biggest issue is not knowing where the t piece is given the first 5 pieces

if the t piece isn't there

[sharp condor]

most of my 1v1s have been pretty stale, mostly just 6-3 upstack or just infds looking for tsd

also it's really not fun when my starting queue is like TTSS or whatever

[rugged ether]

for me it feels like the freestyle makes it so i can expect a certain amount of damage from the opponent == it's very predictable

[tough wagon]

i like 7+x because it's a change of pace, rather than the same thing i played a million times, but i dont like it if it's permanent because then it will get stale and have the same problem

[sharp condor]

yea i played 7+x a few times before this thread because i think it can be fun at times

changing things up

[tough wagon]

but this is only for me cuz i played the game a million times, for lower ranks who havent, it's probably the same variety wise

[sharp condor]

but i do not see this being fun after a while

[quick sapphire]

I can respect that but don't you find it also stale to have someone SDPC every single round? Not trying to argue. Just asking.

[sharp condor]

most of my games have far more variety than sdpc every game

[unreal sky]

i mean regardless of which system is in place people are going to find a meta so you could argue that it's gonna be predictable either way

[sharp condor]

if most of your matches are against sdpc then that is definitely problematic

[rugged spear]

i mean yeah, once again what are low ranks going to do with this queue

[sharp condor]

and i am open to looking for solutions to counteract that

but i do not believe 7+x is the way to go, because it brings a lot of problems

[sharp condor]

WHAT ARE HIGH RANKS GONNA DO WITH THIS QUEUE 😭

[unreal sky]

i feel like sdpc definitely has a disproportionate presence in my games

[rugged spear]

idk some person found a tss

[rugged ether]

box

[tough wagon]

tsm and it actually open so many possibilities

[solemn grove]

i think we can all agree that having one aspect of the game being more weighted as a skill determinant isn't good game design, that's the essence of why people hate openers especially at the lower ranks
cause it feels like openers are the solution to everything below S or even SS

a meta theory could be that there's so much material on openers that we fail to create material to know how to counter those openers, and thus lower ranks have no idea what to do when faced with a strong opener

[quick sapphire]

It's definitely a mixed bag. It creates some problems for some players but it solves some problems for others too

[rugged spear]

it creates more problems than it solves imo

[sharp condor]

yea i agree with this

ye

i believe there are better solutions

[rugged spear]

(OPINION)

[sharp condor]

lol

[solemn grove]

(haha get it, mixed bag)

[quick sapphire]

Would it be bad to have 7 bag up to "x" rank ( Not rank, I mean a specific rank ) and then change the bag kinda like how the FTX changes at and ?

[quick sapphire]

omg someone noticed

[rugged spear]

starting queue was oszzj, u literally don't know what you can do with this queue i believe

[tough wagon]

they should make tetrio have seasons with different game mechanics and then also add season pass (im going to get downvoted to hell)

[grand topaz]

yeah 7+X adds more patterns for first 5 bag
more variety more gaming
@hardy beacon @sharp condor the whole complaint by the pro-opener-main group is that you "cannot have a specific piece placement pre-determined for the first 35 pieces" because there are too many variations to consider,

it is by definition adding more variety to the game, by having more variations in the starting 5 bags

[sharp condor]

this is not a definition lol

[quick sapphire]

Seasons would be cool. Osk has talked about that previously.

[unreal sky]

imo the problems 7+x fixes could outweigh the problems it creates if we do more testing and modifications

[sharp condor]

you know what else adds more variations in the starting 5 bag

[grand topaz]

it is literally the number of variations for the first 35 pieces

[sharp condor]

classic randomiser lol

[solemn grove]

i think openers won't be much of a help for lower ranks in the future (unless,,, people learn 7+x opener setups..)

[unreal sky]

(also just opinion tho)

[rugged spear]

there are more starting bags

but the number of seeds is still the same

so there is not more variety

[grand topaz]

and that is why classic has higher viewership, so despite intended as a joke, actually yes

[sharp condor]

and also your argument is saying classic randomiser would add more variety to the game

what lol

no way you think 9-0 every game is more variety

[grand topaz]

7+X is more fun than classic tho

[sharp condor]

classic tetris is the most stale thing i've ever seen

[grand topaz]

it was fun to watch before rolling

[solemn grove]

classic tetris is just old therefore famous

[unreal sky]

i think what they're trying to say is that more bags != more variety != more fun

[rugged spear]

the thing is

[grand topaz]

while the argument makes sense in theory, the change only affects the first 35 pieces

[rugged spear]

there isn't more bags

[sharp condor]

don't call me a pro-opener-main

call me a pro-variety

[grand topaz]

everything you do after the 35 pieces is up to you as per 7-bag system

[sharp condor]

i would not care if osk removed pc damage

[quick sapphire]

I was more looking at it from the view point of lower ranks up to maybe or whatever the threshold is are learning proper stacking. When you reach the threshold you're ready for new challenges with the new bag system?

Just a thought.

[rugged spear]

seed count remains the same so the number of bags is still the same

[tough wagon]

more piece combinations i think is what they meant

[grand topaz]

how is SDPC-DPC every game variety, tell me

[unreal sky]

based take

[sharp condor]

i see sdpc like 1 in 50 games so i don't really see this

lol

[grand topaz]

sounds like you are lucky

[rugged ether]

my opponents never sdpc me i wonder why

[quick sapphire]

Is it really that rare at your rank!?

[sharp condor]

yes

[long palm]

That’s just luck then

[grand topaz]

what rank is that

[unreal sky]

i mean yeah but we have to consider the whole playerbase

[wet vine]

wait a sec, im asking someone

[sharp condor]

X rank

[grand topaz]

so you have to be in the top 1% of players to stop being harassed by SDPC/DPC??

[sharp condor]

i didn't say there isn't a problem at lower ranks

[grand topaz]

and everyone in the other 99% should suffer? wtf???

[unreal sky]

pc spam is definitely more of a problem from A-U ranks i would say

[long palm]

I can practically hit sdpc in like 50% of my SS rounds

[sharp condor]

you are making words out of nothing

[long palm]

50% of them are countered

[sharp condor]

no one said this lol

[grand topaz]

your argument: "SDPC/DPC is not a problem because in X rank i don't see it happen"

[sharp condor]

i didn't say that 😭

[quick sapphire]

I think we need to calm down a bit.

[sharp condor]

i just said i don't see sdpc every game

[grand topaz]

then what are you saying

[sharp condor]

this

[grand topaz]

but i watch so many twitch streams and i see it everywhere all the time

[sharp condor]

it is a very slippery slope to go from what i said to 99% of players should suffer

[grand topaz]

and people keep using it as a clutch

you see 650k blitz and know you're up for bullshit again

it's genuinely the worst part of the game every time i play it

i sincerely don't understand why anyone defends it

[quick sapphire]

Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

[rugged spear]

if 400 elo chess players can learn to play around scholar's mate spammers why dont lower ranks do the same

[grand topaz]

it is also the worst part of watching any gameplay that is SS/low U

[sharp condor]

i have 0 game design knowledge so i have no clue if this would be good or not but it makes sense to me

[grand topaz]

i've been told that openers in chess are actually one of the reasons why it is hard to get into

[sharp condor]

not true at all lol

[wet vine]

apparently this?

[long palm]

Practically all of my tl record

[grand topaz]

well according to some people, it is

[sharp condor]

i believe they are wrong

as an avid chess player 😎

[grand topaz]

good for you i guess

they still won't like chess

[wet vine]

but i CAN'T see this in a normal game lol

[solemn grove]

to be fair you do have to memorize both chess and tetris openers

[sharp condor]

i've never seen anyone complain about openers in chess lol

like ever

[solemn grove]

just that chess has way more to memorize

more branches, more variations

[quick sapphire]

That's funny but NO lower rank player is gonna see that in a million years.

[sharp condor]

openers are a core part of the game in chess

if you don't like openers then you won't like chess

[grand topaz]

exactly

[wet vine]

even me i can't see lmao

[sharp condor]

but you don't have to know openers to be top5%

like you genuinely don't

not just saying that

[quick sapphire]

[grand topaz]

in tetrio you do lmao

[sharp condor]

also not true

[rugged spear]

?

[grand topaz]

that's why it's so many X people complaining they can't 4 pps repeat the same pattern to be 24.8k (or U rank complaining they can't be 23.8k for some reason)

[sharp condor]

do you really think all x ranks need to know openers to maintain x rank

lol

[quick sapphire]

I love chess ... ||as a spectator. As a player I am genuine dogshit||.

[sharp condor]

i'm an opener main and i could completely drop openers and still be x rank

[grand topaz]

otherwise tehy would lose to it, so yes

[sharp condor]

lol yea i enjoy spectating chess more

[sharp condor]

this is just untrue

[grand topaz]

i just wish it was fun to watch SS/U rank (pre-24k) gameplay, but maybe even low X

[solemn grove]

high x doesn't get fazed at stickspin they just send garbage lol

[sharp condor]

yea exactly

[wet vine]

this looks better

i can prolly see this

[tough wagon]

actually i think majority of the super gms dislike the heavy memorisation in the game and prefer 960 instead, but that's only a small small percentage of the general populace

[sharp condor]

sdpc

[sharp condor]

yea fair enough

[rugged spear]

first 5 bags

[sharp condor]

at a certain level it just becomes opener prep for 12 hours every day

[solemn grove]

i love how there's still stick base lol

[sharp condor]

lol

[grand topaz]

literally the state of tetrio right now

[sharp condor]

not true whatsoever

[grand topaz]

people opener-prepping every time

[grand topaz]

ok what are you basing your argument on

[sharp condor]

i play against some players who destroy me while doing dubble every game

or literally they afk at the start and plonk my attack

[long palm]

I should look at my sdpc winrate

[quick sapphire]

OMG! That's my plonk strats too!!!!

[sharp condor]

and i have beaten X rank players while doing this strategy too

[solemn grove]

again you can defend against openers

[rugged spear]

what about lowering garbage cap at the start so openers become easier to survive

[sharp condor]

i believe the main problem is in lower ranks

so this probably wouldn't help them that much

[solemn grove]

there's just weird timing + garbage counting strats that most people don't think about

[sharp condor]

idk about garbage counting

[long palm]

Sdpc sends like a lot of clean garbage

[rugged spear]

id but like

[grand topaz]

a bit too much for the effort it takes to make it

[rugged spear]

put i piece in well

[sharp condor]

do you think it is easy to play at high pps lol

[solemn grove]

i mean like first tss in sdpc gets countered by one tsd and boom loop gone

[sharp condor]

like if you're going to complain about them being 2pps higher than you then like why are they 2pps higher than you in the first place

[sharp condor]

ye exactly

[grand topaz]

no, but the game suddenly is about quick fingers over pattern seeking

because they know the pattern for the next N*4 bags

[solemn grove]

if they do the rest you can downstack

[quick sapphire]

Everyone has an opinion that should be respected. Regardless of if you agree with it or not. I completely misread your post. My bad.

We all have our own ways we enjoy playing.

This is why it's important that the consideration to change the bag system in TL is not something that can be done on a whim. It needs to be clear that it is being done with the best intentions for the game and the players in it.

[sharp condor]

is quick fingers not part of the appeal of uncapped handling

[rugged spear]

speed is part of skill

[sharp condor]

i play tetrio because i can play fast

[grand topaz]

quick fingers is fun, repetition is boring

[sharp condor]

i hate games like tec because of the enforced handling

[grand topaz]

have you seen score attack matches in modern

[sharp condor]

i have

[rugged spear]

i think it's jsut st stacking being boring

[sharp condor]

i saw the tec one

yea lol

it's so fucking boring

[grand topaz]

you're missing out, zone battle has its merit up to a point, after which it becomes speedy fingers again

kind of a struggle

[sharp condor]

wdym speedy fingers

zone battle is like 2 pps 😭

and thats at a top level

i get like 1.5pps

[grand topaz]

the problem is that tetrio currently is equally boring, it's either LST x5 or SDPC/DPC

or often SDPC-spin

[quick sapphire]

Definitely the main reason I play it too. Totally not because I'm tier 4 supporter or anything ... honest!

[grand topaz]

every piece placement same for 35 pieces

which is why 7+X targets it

[solemn grove]

honestly i've seen real shit when it comes to pps, i lose to high pps but also to low pps they just have good timing and efficiency 😭

[sharp condor]

i basically never see sdpc

lst is more common but still not that rampant

for me

the main opener i see is freestyle out of tki

[long palm]

That’s at X though

[grand topaz]

look

[sharp condor]

what's the point here

[grand topaz]

drop/min on the right

[sharp condor]

my mistake

2.5

[grand topaz]

that's insane in tec

actually wtf-tier

[sharp condor]

still not even close to tetrio speeds

[rugged spear]

yeah? but they must've spent a lot of time training to get there right

[solemn grove]

hhow do people do 2.5pps in a handling locked game 😭

[sharp condor]

fr

[grand topaz]

i'm not sure but i died

[sharp condor]

2.5 is crazy lol

[solemn grove]

i mean i gotta admit dude has serious skill

[grand topaz]

i agree lol

[solemn grove]

eah, tetrio is completely different from te:c and other guideline games

[quick sapphire]

Damn ... I really wanna play some more 7+X TL right now but I can't

Testing period was too short!!!!

[grand topaz]

relatable

[boreal drift]

Maan

[long palm]

Honestly I could tolerate a longer testing period

[boreal drift]

I mean if it was extended further I think this thread would have well over 20% more messages than it does right now

[grand topaz]

every game i had was fun, i only got blitz'd once

[long palm]

Yeahhhhh

[sharp condor]

how did you get blitzed in 7+x lol

[long palm]

Rng

[grand topaz]

which is quite impressive, to be blitzed in 7+x

i was very surprised

[quick sapphire]

I do think there should be an ingame link to "feedback" too. Not every player uses discord.

[winged tartan]

probs just a bunch of PCs from someone flubbing PCO-type shapes or something along those lines

[grand topaz]

the whole point of the change tho is to make the game more accessible/fun in lower ranks, and as always, the people who bother to join the discord (or watch the game on twitch) are generally at least S+ but more commonly SS/U/X

[quick sapphire]

7+X was some of the best fun in TL I've had in years. And I can say that without a single doubt in my mind.

[grand topaz]

it's hard to get feedback from C to S- as abundantly as U/X because the U/X is more, enthusiastic i guess

[grand topaz]

actually SAME

[quick sapphire]

Not getting frustrated over getting SDPC'd every other round was beautiful.

[grand topaz]

i didn't lose to 3.5 pps 0:06 bs

[boreal drift]

Oh totally

[grand topaz]

no "i must TKI with 3.5 pps"

[sharp condor]

which makes sense since U/X players have higher stakes in the game

not saying that their opinion matters more

[grand topaz]

finally just getting to, uh, the game

[quick sapphire]

I went up 700 TR thanks to the change.

[grand topaz]

without having to dredge through the "opener phase"

[unreal sky]

agree

[quick sapphire]

Exactly. Nobodies opinion matters more than anyone else. Regardless of what side you're on.

[boreal drift]

Genuinely, 7+x was a boat load of fun
Not having to dread opener mains was sooooo relieving

Of course there are people who don't like the change, and that's valid too!

But to me, it's a whole new breath of fresh air

[quick sapphire]

I loved adapting to the change in bags as well such as two in first 5 or double or .

It added some real creativity to my freestyling playstyle.

[boreal drift]

Even if I did 6-3 spam for a lot of my tl games 🙃

[onyx reef]

samesies lol

[long palm]

I can tolerate 7+X

[onyx reef]

i took some games off people i didnt expect to lmao

[quick sapphire]

I was amazed at the amount of people that were mentioning 4 widers. I only got like maybe 2 in the entire time the change was active. Maybe they're not as common in

[long palm]

I was gonna work on my freestyle anyways

[unreal sky]

disregarding the debate over openers, what do you think are the main problems with 7+x in terms of how it affects the opening stacking? (for example, first two pieces are double sz)

[wet vine]

from what i hear, mostly in like A or lower? or something like that

[onyx reef]

tbf its been a day and the way you stack it is widely different to start with this bag

[quick sapphire]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[unreal sky]

oh yeah widing is kind of annoying now

[grand topaz]

by the time the opponent made c4w with 7+X i already had a proper defense up against it... i only lost to it like, once

[unreal sky]

because my main way of countering widers was opener apm spam 💀

[grand topaz]

and only encountered it in like, 5-6 games? out of about 160?

[quick sapphire]

The main problem ( that I see ) with the new bag is how badly it impacts lower rank players that already struggle with stacking.

[onyx reef]

true

[rugged spear]

the opener bags feel way too random

[onyx reef]

made opener stacking go from too easy to too hard for alot of players

[quick sapphire]

That's a net positive imo.

[rugged spear]

the first bag feels like true random rng and 7bag randomised

[grand topaz]

interesting opinion. But at least they get a chance to fix the stack rather than be obliterated by "an opener".

[grand topaz]

working as intended

[unreal sky]

like which types of bags specifically are problematic

[grand topaz]

altho i do kinda miss tki

but i'm willing to give it up lol

[rugged spear]

half the time you get a 7bag queue, half the time you get a randomiser zzsstt queue

[unreal sky]

for example repeat t

[grand topaz]

what's wrong with zzsstt? i made a stack out of it 🤔

[rugged spear]

the fact that there's only 1 realistic option you can do

[onyx reef]

will an a or b rank be able to though?

[rugged spear]

variation is gone, the one thing you wanted with a more random randomiser

[quick sapphire]

Tki can still be done

[rugged spear]

other than the first bag, the 7+2 and 7+1 bags feel fine

[unreal sky]

ye with some bags you can still make a tki ish shape

[rugged spear]

but you can get kind of droughted because of how the pieces are distributed across the first 4 bags right

[unreal sky]

i'm thinking maybe we could have something similar to stride mode where certain bags are filtered out

for example we could guarantee no repeat sz for the first bag

i also think maybe we should guarantee that there is exactly 1 T piece for each of the first bags?

[rugged spear]

messing with t piece count just kind of changes how the game is played

[quick sapphire]

I think the bags themselves should not be limited or edited.

[unreal sky]

idk if this would like work out bag-wise

[rugged spear]

which is why i still have hope for 7+1, if 1 is never t

[sharp condor]

then you get a t piece per 8 pieces

which is kind of weird

[rugged spear]

it's less weird than having a tpiece every 8 pieces but sometimes 2

[sharp condor]

do you mean 7+1 for like 5 bags or something

[rugged spear]

ye

[sharp condor]

ah yea

[rugged spear]

7+3 is too much

[sharp condor]

i wonder if 7+1 is enough to destroy openers

[quick sapphire]

I wouldn't think so.

[unreal sky]

hold exists

[quick sapphire]

That one extra random piece wouldn't do it.

[unreal sky]

but it would be a lot more rng

[rugged spear]

double up simulator

[sharp condor]

hmm

[unreal sky]

i don't think 7+1 would be enough to destroy opener though

[sharp condor]

just from some experimentation it seems openers are much harder

for example here i can't make any pc-based opener

not jigsaw, pco, stickspin/sdpc

yes

i just tried 7+1 a few times and my opener really gets fucked

i'm not sure how possible it would be to tech new openers

[unreal sky]

i mean ye but what if you got like O+SZLJIOT for example

you're still getting stickspinned

[sharp condor]

i'm not so sure about that

think about how ofucked 2nd bag will be

there will be an additional wrong piece

[boreal drift]

No, you're getting Dpced

[quick sapphire]

I think before any bag changes are brought to TL there should be a bag option added to zen so people that aren't familiar can practice in it freely.

[sharp condor]

and you can't just hold O for the whole thing

[rugged spear]

the longer the opener is, the more it will be affected in 7+1

[boreal drift]

[quick sapphire]

and Yes I know custom games exist.

[rugged spear]

which i think is a good way to go about it

[sharp condor]

i managed to biuld sdpc once after 6 attempts

and then what do u do from here

[unreal sky]

hmm good point

[sharp condor]

you can already do them in solo custom rooms

[rugged spear]

but nobody does it, like with cpt

[sharp condor]

huh

[quick sapphire]

#1225191549881810965 message

[sharp condor]

oops

[quick sapphire]

It's not the same doing it in custom rooms because you can get more freedom without exiting and re entering such as changing the gravity.

[winged tartan]

technically i was able to enable zen settings in a solo custom game

[quick sapphire]

It'd just be nice to be able to select a different bag from the list.

[wet vine]

zap how do i enable 7+x on solo?

i might be dumb but idk how lol

[winged tartan]

click

[charred walrus]

easy

[rugged spear]

ye but this is impossible to determine during countdown

which is when i determine what to do 😢

[charred walrus]

it is if you suggested this to someone earlier 💀

[rugged spear]

real

what if u get ii queue next

what u do

[sharp condor]

spin I

real question is TT queue 💀

[rugged spear]

u probably just t overhang

[sharp condor]

WASTE T

[rugged spear]

ur forced to waste t

regardless

[sharp condor]

left side parity is fucked

[rugged spear]

ye this is issue

[sharp condor]

have fun resolving

[tough wagon]

waste is perfectly fine especially in the opener where no one has any attacks

• both side has same queue so it's not like it's not fair

[rugged spear]

yeah

[grand topaz]

imagine if it was instead 2+2+1+1+1 😅

not sure if it would change anything

[rugged spear]

less chaos in the first bag,

[grand topaz]

not sure if that is actually a problem; considering the game was never meant to be "the same as guideline" (citation needed)

[grand topaz]

i don't see what you mean. Then use 2nd bag to make something

[solemn grove]

hey has someone already done 7+x autostart room

[wet vine]

oh i forgot about custom mode

[rugged spear]

?

[wet vine]

what do u think with tiki's solve?

[rugged spear]

but people do different things in sdpc 2nd bag why is that any different

[wet vine]

i forgot which is which but both from tiki/gyan

[minor socket]

I saw the second one first

[charred walrus]

ew tss

[wet vine]

gyan uses tss so much

[quick sapphire]

Tss is a nessesary evil.

[charred walrus]

5w float gets funny points

[quick sapphire]

opener main percentage out of my 10 games is now at 50%.

[solemn grove]

aaaand of course opener research on 7+x has begun https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSZT0m0XM6A5qtAcVMCOawSTzQJOLC5wCzR6LxHekuc/edit#heading=h.kp8wm7vckdbl

just saw this lol

[rugged spear]

pc

[quick sapphire]

So that's

Opener mains - 1
Non-opener mains - 1

[rugged spear]

huh

[winged tartan]

yeah how is this a win lol

the papers can mean anything, dropkick solution finder on literally any bag and it will find solutions (as the name implies)

[rugged spear]

i'd argue that pc research is done purely for pc, i don't see how this is applicable to vs

[civic narwhal]

if pco mains now have to do a ton more memorization, isn’t that still a win for non-opener mains

[winged tartan]

wait so what's the win for the opener mains then

[quick sapphire]

They get to learn a new playstyle

[winged tartan]

[civic narwhal]

the only one I see is that 4w is possible in bags that make it very hard to pressure early

[winged tartan]

well everyone loses with that one right

[civic narwhal]

like this is technically a very good c4w queue

true

[silver holly]

i do hope this is tested again sometime soon, conceptually i really like it but haven't been able to play TL recently bc i've been busy w/ work

[civic narwhal]

^yeah I only got to play two rounds yesterday :(

[silver holly]

would like to provide feedback as a lower skill player lol

[civic narwhal]

it’s pretty fun though

[quick sapphire]

I Reeeallllly hope I one day never have to see this in TL ever again.

[civic narwhal]

same

[quick sapphire]

Mind you.

They still didn't win.

[civic narwhal]

though opener mains inflate my own apm because they can be counterspiked to death…

[quick sapphire]

I can't be unbiased towards them. I just absolutely hate the playstyle.

Yeah yeah ...

[civic narwhal]

just send the apm back

even with normal bags, I honestly think that practicing non-opener gameplay is a better investment on time in the long run

there'll be a ceiling where openers can take you

if you're satisfied with that, then I guess it's ok

but most people get stuck because they rely on them... and then they no longer find the game fun when they can't win w openers anymore

shame

I think 7+x discourages that to an extent... if people still want to try (which is possible but would take more effort), that's on them

[wanton mulch]

there's still players who say 7+x is awkward... which I think it's because they're just not used to it
idk, I think everyone would be fine with 7+x if tetrio started as 7+x bag system from the start

[civic narwhal]

it'll just take more than a day to get used to

[wanton mulch]

yeah... unfortunatly we can't force players to play in a mode they dislike

unless osk make it a 7+x month

[civic narwhal]

someone should do some calculations for opener mains vs non-opener mains on whether they like the mode or not

would be fun to see

[quick sapphire]

Non-opener mains would say yes. Opener mains would say no. What else is there to determine?

[pseudo heron]

after getting a mostly good night of sleep, I have arrived at the following opinions:

• openers should have a place, but they shouldn't be a quick ticket to SS rank; they are excellent for entering the midgame with momentum
• the +3 in the first bag is likely very jarring for noobs at times, especially when there is a flood of O/S/Z pieces; even well-known difficult Tetris games like TGM prevent this from happening
• a happier medium might be 2/2/2/1 or 2/2/1/1/1 rather than 3/2/1/1, so smaller openers are easier to use but not overpowered in the lower ranks

basically, the current 7+X randomizer seems to be too effective at nerfing openers, and it makes transitioning to midgame harder

[civic narwhal]

well, not necessarily... but that's what I'd expect too

[quick sapphire]

Psylaris is an opener main that got all the way to when he learned multiple "kill" openers.

[civic narwhal]

reasons like: "I only opener main too because people opener me to death otherwise" or "I don't opener main, but I still don't like the rng"

[quick sapphire]

The way I look at it there will be a fair few people in and that will probably drop like a bomb without their openers.

[civic narwhal]

wdym drop a bomb

[chilly robin]

high apm

[quick sapphire]

drop like a bomb.

[chilly robin]

theyre saying few people arent reliant on their openers

[civic narwhal]

high apm in general or high apm at the opener?

ohh

mb, I misread

yeah, that's true

[peak jasper]

Niya

U to S

[cinder vapor]

If there's any argument I'd have against opener mains, it's that there's next-to-no interaction between players during a match. The opener main is basically just playing blitz every round until they can't and drop dead.

[civic narwhal]

LOL their games are so funny

[lament elm]

real

also what is that plonking wtg

wtf

[primal gale]

my first game back on 7bag (they threw to 0-6 because they knew they could reverse me with dpc crutching)

[lament elm]

sadge

[mystic yoke]

there's fewer opener rounds to prop up stats

[primal gale]

😎

if I don't kill with opener I go plonk infds mode

I'm not a fast player I make do with what I have

[mental storm]

wait bro is me if i did kill openers

idea time

[primal gale]

also can I just say being forced to play multiple rounds to margin time at two in the morning is NOT a fun experience

[cinder vapor]

I wish I had your speed though. I could hit 24k easy

[golden drum]

Grind 1.9 pps plonking until you're mid X level like me

[lament elm]

only around 0.5pps to go oyes

[quick sapphire]

I wonder if we will get any update from osk about the feedback received.

[open lion]

Idk maybe soon

[vestal mantle]

nerf PC to 6 lines sent is honestly a better solution

[cloud mesa]

buff midgame pcs

[vestal mantle]

openers that don't have PCs are counterable 100% of the time if you don't have the skill issue

[winged tartan]

frankly i agree with the people who think nerfing PC directly like that is almost entirely irrelevant

[graceful owl]

extended sdpc

[vestal mantle]

screenwatch easy counter

[graceful owl]

not if you're a B rank

no one gives a shit about higher ranks

[vestal mantle]

who opener mains in b rank lmfao

[graceful owl]

you'd be surprised

[vestal mantle]

mech tsders

trol

[graceful owl]

i learned sdpc in b rank

[vestal mantle]

sdpc is bad without the pc

so pc nerf = problem solved

[graceful owl]

-4 lines wont make it that much worse

[vestal mantle]

huge game changer past s rank

[graceful owl]

if you're S rank and more you also just know dpc

[vestal mantle]

no

[graceful owl]

skill issue

and as i said no one cares about higher ranks

if you're higher rank and you die to opener you suck

it's the lower ranks' fun that's being impacted with killer openers

[vestal mantle]

how to encourage people to never learn screenwatching and just encourage infinite downstacking at every level

[lament elm]

as an ex-B+ who could 2pps burst SDPC DPC back when Feesh was just getting popular,

I believe there has never been more unreasonably fast blitzers in the lower ranks than before

[grand topaz]

variety

[winged tartan]

i mean, checks out to me
if you learnt of the "win game" guide at B rank you'd probably rely on it too

[grand topaz]

nice

but it becomes such a struggle that "can i deflect the opener main" rather than "can we have a fun game"

[graceful owl]

the question " can i deflect the opener main" isn't even that hard lmao

just opener back

[quick sapphire]

Sorry but that's a stupid response.

[lament elm]

not needing opener...

[quick sapphire]

"If you can't beat em, join em..."

[lament elm]

just need good skill, and keep the board always clean for the downstack

[grand topaz]

literally the reason why lower ranks are unplayable

[grand topaz]

i hate stressing about "ok early O == i need to 3.5 pps tki otherwise they immediately win"

[graceful owl]

this is not an argument

[grand topaz]

i learned extended-SDPC but i'm not sure it made the game better. it did help me learn 6-3 tho

[graceful owl]

then just early O = sdpc

[grand topaz]

i was told we need openers for variety

[graceful owl]

it's not that hard

[grand topaz]

why is variety somehow always SDPC

[quick sapphire]

There was a time recently @primal gale can confirm. Where I was gonna learn SDPC because it felt more like a requirement than a choice.

[graceful owl]

i never said anything about variety

[primal gale]

yep

[graceful owl]

then maybe you're approaching the game from a standpoint of "i need to win games" rather than "i want to have fun"

[grand topaz]

thankfully you can typically TKI TSD against the TSS and then you immediately force them into the C-spin path, which you guard, at which point they show their true color and do nothing but korean-stack for 3 minutes

[quick sapphire]

Wrong. I was approaching games from I need to do this or I die to opener.

[lament elm]

nah, not winning games enough
At SS just 2-2.5pps TKI is enough

[graceful owl]

that's just not true...

if you didn't want to learn sdpc there's other ways to counter

[lament elm]

keep board ds-able yeyey

[graceful owl]

allow me to introduce you to the "receive 4 lines of garbage" sdpc variation

[lament elm]

skim single ye

hidden tech

keep it hidden

[graceful owl]

it's just plonking

[spring minnow]

i think countering is fun

[grand topaz]

countering SDPC/DPC isn't that fun however, it really boils down to getting that 1 TSD fast enough at that specific moment

if you fail to do it "oh i have DPC with 4 pps too bye"

game ends in 6 seconds if you mess up

[graceful owl]

skill issue

[grand topaz]

well at least if you remove openers from the first 5 bags, people stop having this problem

in every rank 👍

[stone roost]

Hmm sorry if my english isn’t fluent enough. I’m at the borderline between SS-U, played two rounds or so and this is the argument I most agree with. I’m a non-opener main(I freestyle 99% of the time),, and I could clearly spot the difference regarding the flowthrough of the game. No ‘death in 5 seconds’ or so,,, Longer games and forced downstacking/midgame strategies and such. Felt much better personally but was worried that systems like this would make the opener/blitz main player feel like as if their playstyle has no worth. Conclusion is that there could be an alternative somewhere between the current bag system and 7+X ,,,, like the example mentioned above.

But I know nothing so ,,,, yup

[graceful owl]

so you still have no argument ok great

[merry breach]

hello passthrough drama on crack

[grand topaz]

i've had multiple arguments over multiple hours of typing so at this point i just don't like explaining the same thing: openers are the reason why people are quitting the game at various ranks and why the game has lower than you'd expect retention rates, all this problem inherited from the "guideline 7-bag" which is, uh, the reason why every game starts the same

[graceful owl]

source?

[fresh ermine]

I agree with this

[graceful owl]

aren't people far more likely to learn the opener as opposed to just giving up

[stone roost]

I… personally wanted to give up lol

[grand topaz]

who wants to memorize 28 piece placements just to "not immediately die"

when there are 3000+ other games to play

[fresh ermine]

have you ever spoken with people in the tetris community? there is literally no player I have seen that wasn't mad at one point to opener mains

[grand topaz]

i've been mad about opener maining for more than 2 years, as i found out

it's already been that long

[graceful owl]

please link this to leaving thanks

[graceful owl]

28 piece placements is nothing

[grand topaz]

sorry i'm not inviting all the people who have left back because they went inactive

[stone roost]

For me the game is more about response and feedback,,, Somewhat felt odd about the game being finished in such a short period of time.

[grand topaz]

the entire argument in this thread (from the opener-main side) is people complaining about not having a 100% piece placement strategy for 35 pieces at the very start of a match

[fresh ermine]

exactly

[stone roost]

I mean come on give me one second to think,,,

[grand topaz]

"35 is nothing" kekw

[graceful owl]

and your point?

[grand topaz]

learn to play 35 pieces without exact repetition?

[graceful owl]

then do it

lmao

that's still not an argumenbt

[grand topaz]

it is

technically a more valid one than "skill issue"

[stone roost]

• also as a person who relies on multiplier or b2bs to win,,, The strategy for me to counter effective openers like PCs or stickspins

[merry breach]

if ur baiting keep it up ur doing great

[stone roost]

Is to ‘send four lines and wait’

[merry breach]

if not maybe try placing 35 pieces

[stone roost]

And isn’t it odd? I mean yeah it’s a strategy but it still feels awkward..

[graceful owl]

???? your argument here is "you can do [not opener] instead"

[grand topaz]

exactly the point

[graceful owl]

but why

[grand topaz]

you can just do [not opener] instead

[quick sapphire]

I've stopped responding at this point.

[graceful owl]

when you just also do opener

[grand topaz]

because openers are boring to do and boring to watch and boring to counter

[graceful owl]

why are you forcing your way of playing down my throat?

[grand topaz]

and annoying to learn

[graceful owl]

wrong

[grand topaz]

look in the mirror?

[stone roost]

Hey cool down

[graceful owl]

im not doing this

im not forcing people to play opener

im just saying you should do it if you want to reply to opener

[grand topaz]

you are literally telling me "if you don't like opener, just opener"

that was literally your argument 15 minutes ago

[quick sapphire]

I think you both need to stop. You're not gonna agree on anything and it's contributing nothing to the feedback of 7+X

[graceful owl]

i also said you can choose to do something else instead

[merry breach]

openers usually force you to opener to have a chance at surviving

[graceful owl]

you guys are literally arguing for banning openers

[grand topaz]

i agree, i will go eat

[grand topaz]

yes we are

[graceful owl]

so you're just wrong

[grand topaz]

and i'm very excited to make the game less boring (by banning openers, yes)

[fresh ermine]

ninetales is right

[stone roost]

Kind agree ; I die tragically or I manage to survive almost having a heart attack

[merry breach]

1 bag openers and 1st pc i got nothing against

[grand topaz]

ok but it makes the game unfun for most people in U and below, leading to burnout

and playing other games instead

[merry breach]

its just the 0 variety and 100 consistency that can make it unfun for the opponent

and this comes from someone who sdpc crutched to ss

[grand topaz]

i learned extended-sdpc but i prefer doing something that is not the same thing

[stone roost]

This… I agree
There’s my friend who went from C- to SS - one thing he got most stressed was opener mains

[graceful owl]

openers should be normalized

[quick sapphire]

I will be very excited if 7+X becomes reality in TL ( Or some variation of it ) that ends opener maining.

I feel for those that opener main but in the grand scheme of things you need to adapt to the changes ingame.

If you're just opener maining every round of every match you're just playing blitz at that point.

Well ... blitz or die.

[graceful owl]

they're part of the game and should be treated as such

[grand topaz]

create 7+X openers 👍

[fresh ermine]

pls explain why openers are actually good

[graceful owl]

you do it

[grand topaz]

why would i? i don't need openers

[merry breach]

freestyle gaming

[graceful owl]

pls explain why midgame is actually good

[merry breach]

you get to play multiplayer in multiplayer

[primal gale]

every round there should be a 50/50 chance of it being 7bag or 7+x

[graceful owl]

openers is also multiplayer

[primal gale]

keep people on their toes

[grand topaz]

objectively based tbh lmao

[stone roost]

Hey you seem too biased..
We need openers and midgame also

[primal gale]

that way nobody can rely on only opener and nobody can rely on only midgame

[graceful owl]

no i just haven't seen a valid argument yet

[stone roost]

We need to be efficient taking advantage of the blocks

[graceful owl]

everything has just been malding and groveling

[stone roost]

And also we need to ‘respond’

[quick sapphire]

So I have to hope and pray at the end of every round that I'm not going to get 3PPS demolished by a 7 bag opener after winning / losing a round?

[grand topaz]

it might be because you just shut down every argument as "then learn to opener, skill issue"

[graceful owl]

lolno

[quick sapphire]

@grand topaz@graceful owl

You really need to stop responding to each other.

[graceful owl]

why

[grand topaz]

tbf you are right, i've typed too much here

[merry breach]

to be fair #1225191549881810965 message isnt really an argument either

[stone roost]

I mean the whole point is getting the game more playable and fascinating as a ‘1v1’ game

[quick sapphire]

Or take it to dm's...

[stone roost]

It’s versus - we need time to actually think, play, and place the blocks I mean

[merry breach]

exactly

[graceful owl]

openers have plenty of skill involved