7+X-Bag in TL

[onyx reef]

goofy

[mental storm]

yea probably

[tight harbor]

me with my skim opener

[lament elm]

gg

[onyx reef]

people will just make skim openers and thats that

[mental storm]

i mean just skim the first cheese

free midgame

[onyx reef]

or jigsaw

it would make openers even more centralizing since you need to clear a skim asap

[mental storm]

its also just unnatural as fuck

[onyx reef]

easiest way to do that is skim into an opener

[lament elm]

me when 1st pc do non b2b line clear 🧨

[dusky rose]

did this get added to tl

[onyx reef]

yes

[dusky rose]

so much activity int he thread

oh shoot

[onyx reef]

7+x is in tl

[mental storm]

7+x is being tested in tl for a day

[tight harbor]

a week when

[dusky rose]

so

[lament elm]

~5 more hours left?

[dusky rose]

how is it

[onyx reef]

personally after 10 matches in top x it just makes the opener phase boring

[grand topaz]

unfortunately only 5 hours left

but yes... well, it's 4 hours and 43 minutes

[grim otter]

if it were as "not hard" to counter as you say, then why do most people consider it an issue then? Outside of high level gameplay, it does look that opener abuse is far more prevalent than countering said openers, making opener much more low effort-> high reward for most players

[tight harbor]

it feels boring after a few matches even in U

[tight harbor]

cuz they are only complaining without even trying to counter

[mental storm]

i also dont like getting 3 smashboys in a row. if we want to fuck with the bags to nerf/remove opener, im down, but this ain't it

[onyx reef]

or hear me out in tl if someone is an opener main at your rank they shouldnt be outskilling you because thats how ranks work

[grim otter]

hard to say tbh

[tight harbor]

yep pretty much

[onyx reef]

the only reason opener stomps is tournament play or unfair matches

[tight harbor]

I am new player and I prefer opener garbage

[long palm]

We have passed 5k messages

[onyx reef]

in which case you would have lost anyway

[mental storm]

👏

[tight harbor]

it is not a year since I started so I am still considered new player right?

[grim otter]

why are there far more people who learn and abuse openers than those who learn to counter it in the first place? Because the former is far lower effort with instant results isn't it? It is already skewed to begin with

[tight harbor]

you could also just learn opener

multiple option good

[mental storm]

this mindset is literally the problem

[tight harbor]

instead of just removing the whole thing

[grim otter]

this is promoting the issue, not solving it lol

[onyx reef]

why is the mindset the problem at all

why is opener being strong inherently a bad thing

[tight harbor]

"omg those T spinners"

[mystic yoke]

because it's singleplayer

[tight harbor]

"nah I won't learn T spin"

[tired flame]

since osk have gave us more garbage mesiness options in customs

maybe having somethign like this for the first 30 seconds

[onyx reef]

if its singleplayer for two players they will cancel and be forced to multiplayer lol

[tired flame]

may help

instead of chagning 7 bag

[mental storm]

"i will win by doing the same thing 7 times in a row faster than my opponent"

[onyx reef]

if the issue is blitz just make pc’s send 6 instead of 10

[mystic yoke]

and that's not healthy to just memorize a cancel

but I think removing PCs is alot better than this

there's still stickplonk mains but TKI has been able to counter for so so long

[lament elm]

1 day, not much meta development and shifting.

Folks are either happy their greatest challenge — surviving the opener phase — is non-existent, or unhappy that their past few weekends upping their opener power for TL go down the drain in a moment's notice. Also this change affects minimally to the widers/combos and PC players (who? maybe like 3, 4 X ranks).

[grim otter]

wouldn't this mean dpc would be sending cheese spikes?

[onyx reef]

if the issue is stickspin you have the most basic stacking

[mystic yoke]

I dont think stickspin is an issue in this day and age of ZPT

it's just SDPC and DPC that is fully singleplayer?

[onyx reef]

legitimately the only reason to change the way openers work is to force change for the sake of making things fresh

[mystic yoke]

I dont think so

[tough light]

The point of counter-opener changes are "Use brain to win instead of stupid ass memorisations" i think

jts

[tight harbor]

pretty much

[tough light]

pretty boring to live with openers

[tight harbor]

boring or not depends on person

I think

[cyan forge]

alr but u are looking at this from very high glicko standpoint

there are people who play the game casually/normally/not at 24950 tr

[onyx reef]

people of low glicko will also fight people of equally skilled stickspins

lol

[cyan forge]

so its a matter of playability

[tight harbor]

why are we talking like openers main won't be going up in rank after winning

[mental storm]

what if pc gave like 3 b2b increments instead of damage

[onyx reef]

no

that makes pc op

[brisk badger]

EW

[mystic yoke]

the problem with that anber is how s+ does 3+pps stickspin and hovers that TR with 0 midgame

like actually 0

[dusky rose]

we should not be buffing pcs oh my gdo

[onyx reef]

thats a fringe case

[mystic yoke]

s+ is not fringe

[cyan forge]

you can not expect s ranks to know how to deal with like 20+ garbage in 4 or less pieces

[dusky rose]

pcs should like send. 6 max

[lament elm]

As it stands, the 7+X does what I presume it is supposed to be doing: nerf the opener mains at low ranks.

But affecting higher gameplay like this is unfun imo.

[cyan forge]

it is not a fringe case for stickspin antispikes to happen

[mystic yoke]

PCs are reliant on even/odd mino and are completely RNG midgame PCs shouldnt be in TL at all

[grim otter]

with 7+X, I actually manage to reach my first ever FT7 game in TL

[cyan forge]

and you dont even need that much pps to spike heavy in such a short time

[onyx reef]

3 pps stickspin at s is lol

[cyan forge]

you dont even need 3 pps

[dusky rose]

midgame pcs are like tf2 random crits

it's fun to do them

[cyan forge]

as long as you get to the c spin + quad thats enough to kill instantly

[dusky rose]

...but not to get them

[brisk badger]

I don't mind the less volatile opener phase but that's just me lol

[mental storm]

recall that pc is effectively locked to a single character in charsys concept writeup

[lament elm]

I've met 2-3 peeps like that, pretty rare.

[grim otter]

Do you watch/read JJK

[mental storm]

devs clearly aren't fond of the mechanic

[onyx reef]

thats like 20 garbage with 35 pieces

[dusky rose]

no

[cyan forge]

???? i mean the spike part

[grim otter]

nvm then

I was about to compare em to black flashes

[cyan forge]

c spin tsd quad in the matter of like 4 pieces max

[onyx reef]

so the other 31 pieces of cancel power are just ignored?

[cyan forge]

• more whatever

[onyx reef]

the other person can build too yknow

[cyan forge]

yea thats how stickspin works

either way youre not in s+ so i dont think you have a direct opinion on how they feel

and i dont either. but i think

its just a common complaint from them

[grim otter]

I have seen midgame PCs being a life saver in top player game play though, as in if PC didn't send lines, the PCer would have been instantly spiked to death by the opponent high combo DS or high B2B spike

[onyx reef]

no

[cyan forge]

and so knowing that, you cant just say like "get better lol" cause it doesnt work like that

[onyx reef]

midgame pc is garbage

[lament elm]

For my stacking? I can deal with most of the stuff since my core is freestyle.

But games are supposed to be fun, and slowly building momentum even when your speed is unlimited feels like a deliberate drag, a barricade...

[cyan forge]

midgame pc at top ranks arent much thoufh

its just +10 clean garbage which is kinda nothing

[grim otter]

without midgame pc, there is like 0 chance of defense when you clear your board to bottom lol

[onyx reef]

no i cant

[cyan forge]

so it is a valid problem

[onyx reef]

but you should have the tools at your rank to deal with whatever the opponent does at the same rank

[cyan forge]

if you have those tools then you should be at a higher rank, no?

[tight harbor]

that should be how competitive games work yeah

[cyan forge]

cause then you know how to deal with it and therefore are better than your opponent

[tight harbor]

if those opener mains are winning like you are saying

they would be at higher rank too

[onyx reef]

if the opener player was actually that good they would be higher rank too

lol

it sounds like hard copium to me

[cyan forge]

well yea thats also a thing

[grim otter]

Also how are you supposed to effectively follow up attack without midgame PCs if you used your whole stack and the opponent still lives, especially when you have lost B2B bonus for your TSD to do enough damage?

[cyan forge]

idk it doesnt matter to me cause im already where i want to be in terms of rank

[onyx reef]

huh?

why would you ever break b2b

[cyan forge]

but its more of a matter of how fun the game is

to all players overall

[onyx reef]

true

[mental storm]

you used your whole stack and the opponent still lives
you fucked up

[tight harbor]

SS players on their way to break b2b for no reason

[onyx reef]

but is infinite cheese in the opener more fun than infinite clean

[tight harbor]

not even survival or something

[grim otter]

idk, midgame PCs looks and feels more satisfying no?

[onyx reef]

lets be honest

[tight harbor]

[onyx reef]

an a rank without a set opener is not making a clean board

[cyan forge]

no, im not saying that 7+x is a good change

[bold forum]

Sorry, I've been looking around couldn't find this, how exactly does 7+x work?

[cyan forge]

im just saying that you cant really put down the concerns of other ranks by just saying skill issue

i quite dislike 7+x and think theres many better ways to solve this problem

[lament elm]

currently it's 7+3 7+2 7+1 7+1 then normal 7 7 7

[mental storm]

7+3, 7+2, 7+1, 7+1 bags for first 4. extra pieces are unique (never 2 extra T's for example)

[cyan forge]

but that doesnt mean that the problems that it does solve arent real

[tight harbor]

5th bag is distributed over first 4 bags
+3 in 1st
+2 in 2nd
+1 in 3rd and 4th

[grim otter]

hear hear

[tight harbor]

meaning you won't get OSZ in other +X if you have already gotten it in 1st +3

[cyan forge]

of course i do it too sometimes and im guilty of it but just try not to keep insisting on it to everyone, especially when it is a change affecting quite literally everyones experience

[onyx reef]

we’ll just have to see if opener is more or less fun than straight midgame for lower ranks

[bold forum]

I see, so each bag will have a different set of extra pieces.

[cyan forge]

yea i mean thats up to everyone elses opinions on the thing

[onyx reef]

thats the goal aint it?

[cyan forge]

at least for me though i FUCKING hate 7+x

[grim otter]

I opener main a lot before 7+3 too btw, and I still think opener wins are cheap

[tight harbor]

are they really cheap tho

[onyx reef]

i think opener wins are cheap

but

[cyan forge]

i can get used to it/deal with it but still idk it changes everything

[tight harbor]

like you can't just go 5pps right after learning

[onyx reef]

cheesy starts to the game are boring

like

really boring

and so is just spamming 6-3 every game

[grim otter]

I feel like I won some players that I did not deserve to win, and vice versa lol

[bold forum]

NGL, my experience with 14 bag was pretty positive.

[tight harbor]

you always deserve your wins

[bold forum]

This feels much more mild.

[tight harbor]

regardless how you choose to play the game

[grim otter]

7+X wins felt more satisfying ngl

[mystic yoke]

i dont think "boring" or "fun" are the ways to go about this

[tight harbor]

they feel the same to me

[onyx reef]

why not

[grim otter]

and losses also felt more "acceptable"

[onyx reef]

thats the point of a game

[mystic yoke]

going into TL is "vsing an opponent"

[grim otter]

personally

[onyx reef]

to be fun or boring

[mystic yoke]

osk can just buff b2b if it's too cheesy

[onyx reef]

the game should be fun to play

[tired flame]

Opener wins do force some kind of anxiety? Like if i know my opponent is way faster I kinda more prone to misdrop as i forcemyself faster

I do know some opponents get tripped up if i dont opener main for most of hte set until the end too

[grim otter]

this too

[onyx reef]

and make b2b the only viable strategy, very fun

[mental storm]

finally bro we needed triple b2b at x6 ages ago

[onyx reef]

more than it already is

[brisk badger]

I enjoy midgame more than opener game

[onyx reef]

im pretty sure most people do lol

[brisk badger]

the focus on "enjoyment" is very subjective though

[tired flame]

But i also dont see this as an issue, cause I can swap between opener maining, neutral, and plonking/stall

and seen others do it too

[grim otter]

7+X thread becoming opener discussion thread kekw

[tired flame]

like rock paper scissors kidna

[brisk badger]

varies from person to person

[grim otter]

these two aren't separable I guess

[onyx reef]

i mean 7+x is just affecting the opener

[brisk badger]

so

[tight harbor]

yep

[onyx reef]

now for like

[tight harbor]

I mean the main focus they are trying to address is opener

[grim otter]

yeah, I get that

[mystic yoke]

"oh it's too cheesy"
"oh b2b is too strong"
like whatever man, there's balance

[cyan forge]

7+x bag will also change the midgame dynamic whether or not its directly affected

[tired flame]

How about 7+X then garbage messiness set to 0% for 20-30 seconds? so 4w strats absolutely gone for good. This should completely eliminate fears of 4w meta

😔

[tight harbor]

midgame feels a lot more dull without plethora of clean garbage from opener phase

[cyan forge]

its much easier to midgame starting from clean garbage vs 1+1+2+2+2+3

[tight harbor]

for me

[tired flame]

i do not think new players will love 4w meta

[onyx reef]

“oh, opener is too strong”

[brisk badger]

I feel as it only affects the entry to midgame and a little bit of time after entering it depending on the bags

[onyx reef]

theres balance

lol

[brisk badger]

fighting bs with bs is fun balance ig

[cyan forge]

i mean its cool i guess

[grim otter]

Pure PCs are the only acceptable openers

[mystic yoke]

I think that the problem with opener isnt being strong

[bold forum]

It's worth remembering that people haven't really had time to optimize 7+x. Given time people will develop more consistent openers for the format (even if just a bit weaker).

[tired flame]

yeah but it's only 1 day

so not really time

or incentive

[brisk badger]

I don't think this is viable bc there's a lot more variety between the opening bags so it's much more of a pain in the ass to memorize and studyt

[mental storm]

people can solo lab

[grim otter]

weakening it by a lot is good enough too imo

[cyan forge]

sheetbot outputs gonna be wrong now

[bold forum]

I mean if it stuck around.

[onyx reef]

with incentive openers will pop back up

[tight harbor]

zen doesn't have 7+X right?

[onyx reef]

weaker

but they will

[tired flame]

Im unsure on 7+x because i wouldnt know how the meta gonan be like if it stuck around

[cyan forge]

why not just reduce garbage sent at the start of rounds instead

[tired flame]

but intial impressions is 4w meta for newer players

which is gonna be ????

[tight harbor]

skull

[brisk badger]

p sure somebody did suggest to hide the q for the opener phase

[mystic yoke]

"ive kept saying "opener is singleplayer", not "opener is too strong"

[brisk badger]

dunno how that'd affect gameplay though

[grim otter]

do we measure by time or pieces placed?

[bold forum]

Like, I already felt like I could kinda make tki still work, this might not be as big a nerf to openers as it seems right now.

[cyan forge]

probably pieces

[wise storm]

i remember trying to teach someone the basics of stacking like not covering the well and flat stacking, then someone came in and told them to just learn SDPC cause they can win everytime

[tired flame]

yes #1233972737576276040 was made cause i want to TKI damn it

[onyx reef]

if you choose to do it that way sure it can be

[cyan forge]

to avoid extended sdpc and stuff

but also mech mains

[onyx reef]

but you can play the whole game that way too lol

[mystic yoke]

huh?

[cyan forge]

idk theres not really a good way to exterminate an entire part of a playerbase completely

[onyx reef]

“singleplayer” is just ignoring garbage right

[cyan forge]

yea

[tired flame]

this always happens here in #tetrio·general or #lobby someone asking for advice on how to start out

[cyan forge]

just straight sprint 5 pps looping or something

[rigid zenith]

holy shit 5.2k messages in this thread

[onyx reef]

i can do that with or without openers lol

[brisk badger]

[cyan forge]

true

[brisk badger]

many messages

[grim otter]

wonder what feesh would think

[tired flame]

Change will always make people leave, the question is if the change will bring more people to replace or even grow more than before.

[bold forum]

Tetra league is a singleplayer mode where you happen to have an opponent.

[onyx reef]

i mean

true

kinda

[grim otter]

is it even possible to make tetris more multiplayer

[primal gale]

he's more concerned with how it happened

[grim otter]

in 1v1

[grim otter]

I see

[onyx reef]

character system in the corner :3

[rugged spear]

the only issue i have is queues like this

what is a low rank going to do with this queue

[grim otter]

been 3 years

[rigid zenith]

there’s a slight notice that tetrio staff changed something in tl

[onyx reef]

6-3 !!!!!!!!!

c4w !!!!!

[rigid zenith]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1051722088190320703/1233971699926433822/image.png?ex=662fb1f3&is=662e6073&hm=3bfdeff4be70508a148892675efc563fd1e5bfdce15f558834036a59e5193253&

[primal gale]

there wasn't at the outset

[tired flame]

yeah which is why i want 7+x appended add the extra pieces to the end of a 7 bag

[primal gale]

there is a thing there now but not when it started

[wise storm]

it was a stream, and there were 4 people who said to learn SDPC instead of learning basics, so i told the streamer to change their game to just chatting

[golden drum]

Pray for tki

[bold forum]

I think only so much. There's so much to think about with your stacking as is, there's only so much brain space you can devote to countering your opponent. Maybe we'd have to make stacking simpler and/or slower.

[rugged spear]

yeah this is probably a good way about it

[rigid zenith]

+100 social credit

[primal gale]

unless you're in this server and were reading the conversation when it happened you would have no clue

[tight harbor]

still 💀

[grim otter]

slower does seem plausible

[tired flame]

I forgot who mentioned it but 14 bag but and are in each group of 7 like normal also could work

[onyx reef]

slower but somehow not affecting the play your way motto of tetrio

[tight harbor]

oh god no

[rugged spear]

14 bag feels less chaotic than 7+x

[grim otter]

wow

[bold forum]

Gotta use line clear delays to take a peak at your opponent's board.

[tired flame]

honestly i rather get the rng non 7 bag over with faster

than 5 bags

so maybe 1 14 bag will feel better than 7+x

[tight harbor]

use line clear delays to spend even more time in your board

[bold forum]

It's for sure simpler to explain.

[tight harbor]

true

7+x is way too complicated for beginners

[bold forum]

Also adds entropy to the midgame, which may or may not be a good thing depending who you ask.

[cloud trout]

Maybe just leave it as a game mode instead of changing the whole game around

[tired flame]

to make things clear

14 bag would be taking 2 7 bags, keeping the and in place, shuffle the rest

[tight harbor]

[rigid zenith]

modern tetris in general is complicated for beginners in general imo

[tight harbor]

my favorite option

[deft oasis]

complicated but easier

[tight harbor]

yep and 7+x will make it even more complicated

[onyx reef]

me after 14-bag openers get created

[primal gale]

it's been an option for a while, in customs at least

[tired flame]

this way parity is kept, 1 14 bag feels less annoying than 5 7+x bags

[primal gale]

but nobody's been trying it

[tight harbor]

because it's boring

[deft oasis]

also no new player is paying attention to randomizer

[tight harbor]

they do tho

[onyx reef]

eh

not really

[tired flame]

hell even new people to the discord server at S+ rank and below still dotn know 7bag

[tight harbor]

from what I have seen when I was like B rank

[bold forum]

Yeah this is the tricky part. Nobody knows how strong opener's are gonna be until people spend time optimizing them.

[tired flame]

hence why i always make sure to mention it just in-case

[tight harbor]

they know about bag stuffs

[deft oasis]

ok but nobody cares in gameplay

[tired flame]

not knowing 7+x 7 bag whatever that's an in-game lack of a tutorial or info problem

[deft oasis]

unless youre bag tracking which at that point is like top x level

[onyx reef]

bag system doesnt matter for anything other than the opener phase as long as it has some amount of certainty

[tight harbor]

lst

[deft oasis]

lst is just mech with extra steps :kappa:

[onyx reef]

lol

lst after the exact conditions for lst are gone

[tight harbor]

I mean you can reduce everything with that logic

[onyx reef]

lst will still work well enough to be usable

[primal gale]

I was able to somewhat lst in customs with a friend

if you get good rng the first few bags and still have the right setup after 35 pieces you're gucci

[tight harbor]

lst is still kicking very well in 7+X

[deft oasis]

opening with lst was annoying but midgame lst was completely possible

[tight harbor]

cuz it's just 7 after 5 bags

[primal gale]

for sure

[tight harbor]

I just waste both T and triple up if extra T comes earlier

[rugged spear]

lst is still doable

[tight harbor]

and then do normal LST

[onyx reef]

i think its quite humorous though that community is very 50-50 on this change

[rugged spear]

with rng though

[tight harbor]

yep

early extra T = forced waste T

and you would have to waste another to fix it if you can't find dono to fix

[rigid zenith]

unlike consistent passthrough 😔

[onyx reef]

bring consistent passthrough pleasee

[bold forum]

I'm 50-50 on this, lol.

[onyx reef]

ok but passthrough does not matter at all below like x rank

[rigid zenith]

yeah it’s rare for a round to be decided by passthrough below x rank

[rugged spear]

i think cpt has potential but theres just 0 visual indication on when it happens

[onyx reef]

just make it so that its the same garbage travel time 😭

the randomness is good

[rugged spear]

?

[onyx reef]

when they implemented cpt the garbage travel tome was wack

[tough light]

little reminder to not get way too out of topic

[rare crystal]

does cobra do cpt

or only zpt and lpt

[rugged spear]

the travel time was the same

it's just u have no visual indication garbage travel starts

[severe spindle]

Midgame just feel boring now

[tired flame]

cause minimal doesnt show the garbage travel

[severe spindle]

Like its directly just thrown at u

[tired flame]

the floating colorful orb thing from board to board

[severe spindle]

While u try to stride out the rng based first bag

[tired flame]

cpt unfair treatment cause minimal players cant even see the mechanic properly

But garbage travel did get changed for 1-2 tests of CPT

in TL

garbage travel time*

[magic viper]

my 24.9k TL opponents do c4w

[severe spindle]

Yea

4w is buffed

Bc theres also no opener to counter it

[magic viper]

I am not used to it, as i said-the people who are not used to it get TR ddrop

Yeah

i give Thumbs down luckily its only 1 day

i would not even Want to play TL at all if it was perma

in normal, u can use opener to counter c4w is unstoppable here

[bold forum]

Regardless, I do think it's good they're trying things.

[magic viper]

😭

[eternal dew]

true, at least they are doing something and hopefully we could figure it out

though that sound hard asf

[severe spindle]

Im not even 24.6k anymore😭

[magic viper]

😭

[mystic yoke]

i wonder what type of players are climbing right now

[drifting veldt]

koreans

[eternal dew]

I wasn't really affected because i barely rely on early game lol

[magic viper]

At least im still 101 apm

[bold forum]

Yeah, I feel like oppening doesn't matter too much at my rank.

[magic viper]

😭 i dont like this mode it makes me hold back on TL

[severe spindle]

Same..

Im playing kinda like my ss self…

[magic viper]

😭

[severe spindle]

My stats r literally ss stats😭

[magic viper]

what r ure stats

[tight harbor]

my stats are still U

[magic viper]

I still estimated 24.9k

[severe spindle]

80 apm 2.45pps 168vs

[magic viper]

but still- 😭

[severe spindle]

…

Wtf…………..

[tight harbor]

wtf U stat

[magic viper]

silently throws out trash

[severe spindle]

Those were my ss stats

[tight harbor]

skull

[magic viper]

relizes those are low U rank stats

[severe spindle]

My u rank stats are 105apm 2.7pps 210vs

[eternal dew]

that apm was my x stats

like 3 yrs ago

[tight harbor]

ok my SS and U stat didn't really change much

[magic viper]

Im still 24.9 Estimated stats

[severe spindle]

😭

[tight harbor]

I just greeded less and spike more

[severe spindle]

Im 24.5k estimated stats i think

[magic viper]

😭

[severe spindle]

I used to be estimated 24.7-24.8k

[eternal dew]

lol depends on the bot they always estimate me around 24955

[magic viper]

[eternal dew]

never reached 2493 in reality

[severe spindle]

I reached 24.7k

[eternal dew]

can't go fast

[magic viper]

at least im 24.9k X rank in 40l

[eternal dew]

[magic viper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696095920248455229/1233542832862531644/sadge.gif

[mental storm]

why does my opponent know 7+x pco

[severe spindle]

Theres people who can still pretty easily pc spam

Openers r still pretty common and possible woth this

[tired flame]

how many pcs?

[severe spindle]

Not sure

[tired flame]

should be 2-3? then 7+x is over?

[charred walrus]

not slow players 😔

[severe spindle]

I just remember i got sent to oblivion

[magic viper]

its prob diao

[severe spindle]

It was more like 3-4

[brisk badger]

Power stacking?

[severe spindle]

2pcs is pretty es to get

[rugged spear]

?\

[brisk badger]

14 bag in my experience had a bunch of 2 wides n stuff

Bit more to me

Personally at least

[severe spindle]

the lower ranks i think r just gonna switch to 2w or smthing

ive seen b- 2w already theyll prob just do it even more

[spiral vessel]

skull

[magic viper]

caant win a single match with bag

[mental storm]

i've discovered 5-4 stacking and no longer suck at this mode

[grand topaz]

i've been winning so far lmaoo

no early O is great

[magic viper]

im X rank, so itll takemore than that

💀

and im better with early O piece to stack TSD's

[spiral vessel]

yo wanna 1v1

need high ranks to play

i want to see how 7+x is

[foggy ferry]

im down to 1v1 too

24.8

[spiral vessel]

ooh ok

code is *E

[magic viper]

Im Not playing teto

..

and im also not going to play on 7+X bag agaib

[spiral vessel]

ah ok

[midnight ibex]

whoever implemented 7+x in TL is the goat

[bold forum]

Queue times that bad that it's faster to ask for games? /hj

[spiral vessel]

😔

so true..

[rigid zenith]

i just wanna say that if 7+x is ever a permanent change, i highly suggest to not make that change in singleplayer

[minor robin]

i dont mind it in league but yeah for singleplayer it'd be a bad idea even though theres about a 0% chance of it happening

[rigid zenith]

safe to say it before they make a controversial change

[tight harbor]

this is already controversial enough

[limber fable]

I'm not a fan of this change.

If this is targeted for opener maining: openers are a part of the game. i've said this before and i'll say it again - you have to learn to play them to understand how to actually defend against it and that knowledge is incredibly helpful for understanding fundamental aspects of the game. Playing defense is a skill that unfortunately people just refuse to learn. people who are solely opener mains get weeded out very quickly at the top level

haven't been apart of the community for a while and haven't played in many tournamnets in the past few years so i'm not sure how the meta is shifting. but apm spamming was always a playstyle and you just had to learn to deal with it. opener maining is just an extreme version of that

i'm open to further discussion about it and am willing to have my mind changed

i think it's really important with any change that people also don't disregard other people's points just because they're "better" than them

[spiral vessel]

you cant even non-opener apm spam properly with 7+x

[limber fable]

take steps to educate them on why they might not be correct but i've seen this happen so much because for some reason there are so many people in this community that are on a high horse because they're a top player

as i said these are just my opinions and i'm just throwing them out there; there's definitely merit to having it but i just think that the cons heavily outweigh the pros in this situation

im just skimming through the thread but the main thing i'm seeing is the opener main bit; are there any other big contentions or is that the main argument

[spiral vessel]

yeah thats basically it

7+x is intended to shut down pre-planned placements of pieces in the early game

[mental storm]

i've noticed game length is longer on average

[limber fable]

opener maining is also considered such an issue just because of the way tetrio's damage system promotes apm heavy b2b playstyles

[spiral vessel]

its more boring, theres less of a concrete flow to the game

[open lion]

Same feeling

[limber fable]

without 7+x or with?

[open lion]

With

[limber fable]

it's a completely different game imo

[pseudo heron]

completely different at first, but it's the same once you get through the first four bags

[open lion]

I don’t think it’s a good way to kill it

[pseudo heron]

once you get through the + bags, it's just regular 7-bag

[open lion]

The game just kinda becomes slow

[limber fable]

doesnt change the fact that your board state is completely different

openers also help setup your board for the midgame

[open lion]

Maybe

Not completely

[pseudo heron]

you can get set up for midgame just fine without openers

[sharp condor]

the midgame has way less clean lol

[open lion]

Kinda just like make a 9-0

[minor robin]

its at least a good change for C ranks spamming stickspin

[limber fable]

you also have no b2b setup for midgame

[open lion]

Cursed tho

[ruby comet]

openers are repetitive and stale in my opinion. And they dont encourage new players to want to play the game. This game needs new players to survive

[pseudo heron]

but that's a matter of player skill; the actual gameplay elements are identical

[sharp condor]

idk lol

i'm pretty used to playing with an influx of clean garbage after the opener phase

[pseudo heron]

the rules are the same, but the board states are different

[sharp condor]

but now the games are significantly more cheesey

[pseudo heron]

because people don't know how to set up good attacks very well

[sharp condor]

i don't see how that negates my point

[limber fable]

a big problem is the pure lack of defensive understanding of the game

which opener maining exploits really early on

but at the same time how does this differ from knowing lots of chess traps

if you think about it they're also opener maining

[sharp condor]

there is more counterplay to chess traps

[limber fable]

and so the solution here is doing something like chess960

not a good comparison but only thing i could think of

[open lion]

I get speedgaped and also outplayed 😭

[pseudo heron]

I mean, I'm personally a fan of the "piece placements determine garbage hole placements" concept rather than the "mess with the randomizer in the first few bags" approach, but 7+X works fine at nerfing openers, and I'm okay with it

(I've never seen something like this for guideline versus, so I have no idea whether this is effective)

[sharp condor]

the problem isn't where the garbage holes are

it's that stickspin sends like 15 lines or something and basically oneshots at lower ranks

[pseudo heron]

the idea behind piece-placement-based garbage columns is that you know where the garbage holes are going to be, so you can counter openers more reliably without resorting to openers or directly nerfing openers

[mental storm]

spike and pc openers are less interactive for the user and more interactive for the opponent than usual

which is wacky

[sharp condor]

how helpful will this really be for lower ranks

[midnight ibex]

I agree. Don't want to put a big block of text but I like this change for the following reasons:

Variety - this prevents the game from getting stale. (More on meta below)

Unpredictable - even if new openers start popping up, it'll be tough to identify which extra pieces you'll have in queue. This promotes a steeper learning curve to be higher level.

Meta evolution - we'll start seeing a shift in the meta. We'll likely see more dynamic and (hopefully) more balanced gameplay (mainly targetting overleveled opener mains).

Skill development - Almost all players will have to adapt and change their playstyle. You won't be able to rely on memorized openers and and react to the pieces you're receiving real-time.

[sharp condor]

it's not like there isn't already counterplay for openers

[pseudo heron]

I don't know how that would impact lower-ranked players

[mental storm]

they wouldn't know about it LULW

[sharp condor]

isn't this change targeting lower ranks

[spiral vessel]

"i keep dying to this powerful strategy people use against me in the beginning of the game"
"i dont want to learn how to survive this powerful strategy, instead lets change the entire beginning game to suit my needs to make sure i dont die"

[sharp condor]

i don't think most x ranks have a big issue with openers

[foggy ferry]

yeah i think a lot of ppl saying gameplay feels slow rn might see that change in the future as we get used to it

its just new thats expected with anything

[spiral vessel]

having lunch for breakfast kinda sucks

[pseudo heron]

always a tendency for some of the opposition to be knee-jerk no matter the change

[primal gale]

so true

it's a bandaid to get around skill issue without resolving the underlying skill issue

also a lot more people are gonna mald about 4wide which is already annoying af

[pseudo heron]

or, think about it this way - why are openers so powerful in the first place? might it have something to do with the underlying game mechanics? hmm... really makes me think

[sharp condor]

what's your point

[primal gale]

if tetrio had an underlying balance issue relating to openers then all top players would be opener mains because that's the meta playstyle that carries you

this is not the case

[pseudo heron]

no one is making that point

[sharp condor]

what point are you making then

[pseudo heron]

not that point

[sharp condor]

do you wanna tell us then 😭

[tired flame]

I dont think anyone here mentionrd openers being op at the top end, more about the rest of the players

[sharp condor]

cylinderknot's proposed changed affects only top players

[pseudo heron]

it doesn't

[sharp condor]

??

[pseudo heron]

it would affect all players, but I don't know how exactly it would affect lower-ranked players

[buoyant drum]

ok so there's this image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696095920248455229/1217624404117422131/image.png?ex=662f8cd8&is=662e3b58&hm=43544f59510324f5e3802b3be511a9a825579b9dc65808ed382356a71ba5473b&

[sharp condor]

okay

my bad then

but my thinking is that it doesn't affect lower-ranked players

[buoyant drum]

very old though

[mental storm]

lmao

[hushed oxide]

fr

[sharp condor]

lol

[spiral vessel]

just learn to survive openers, stop complaining..

[hushed oxide]

@primal gale h

.8 pps speedgap 😭

[mental storm]

opponent stridepilled tho

[hushed oxide]

true

pure stride 💀

[spiral vessel]

stridepilled 💀

[mental storm]

imagine being a strider

[hushed oxide]

had to do a bit of inf dsing in that but

not korea

levels

bc i dont have the speed to be korean

[merry breach]

actually this isnt as bad as i thought

didnt know it only changes for 5 bags total

[hushed oxide]

it really isnt

i feel like

most people who complain is opener mains

bit idk

[pseudo heron]

openers are extremely powerful in the lower ranks because most of the lower-ranked players haven't also memorized canned setups

thus, openers are essentially a free ticket to roughly SS rank

the underlying game mechanics cause this phenomenon

saying "just get better lol" doesn't fix the underlying problem of openers being a free ticket to SS rank or so. I don't think most casual players would be a fan of studying and memorizing openers just to "get better at countering openers"

[sharp condor]

you don't have to study and memorise openers to counter them lol

[tight harbor]

who even study and memorise openers to counter them

[sharp condor]

yea 💀

[hushed oxide]

ye

[mental storm]

low elo isn't learning to counter them though

[hushed oxide]

though

i will say

[sharp condor]

isn't that their fault 😭

it's not that hard to counter

[tight harbor]

if you have good fundamental

[hushed oxide]

low level cannot handle

[sharp condor]

if you won't take some time to think about how to counterplay something you're losing against then that's your fault

[tight harbor]

you can just survive most of the opener mains

[hushed oxide]

15+ spikes from stickspin and such

[ruby comet]

learning to counter is alot harder than learning to memorize the opener 💀 💀💀💀💀💀💀

[sharp condor]

no it's not

let's take sdpc

[tight harbor]

no it is not

[sharp condor]

all you have to do to counter it is send 4 lines at the start

[pseudo heron]

I wouldn't expect a B rank to be able to counter stickspin without also knowing what it is in the first place

[sharp condor]

so like build tki or something (very easy)

and then sdpc doesn't work anymore

[pseudo heron]

most B ranks probably don't even know what an opener is

[tight harbor]

I am just spamming apm and it somehow works out

I don't even care what opponent is doing

[hushed oxide]

how about like

stickspin at lower ranks

[sharp condor]

you said stickspin sends only 15 lines

[tight harbor]

it's honestly just skill issue

[sharp condor]

if you don't do anything it won't even kill you lol

[hushed oxide]

yes

[mental storm]

the b ranks that know what opener is are the ones that are stickspinning to the moon

[hushed oxide]

the spike is 15

[sharp condor]

most players die because they overstack their own board and then 15 lines pushes them over

[hushed oxide]

do you expect a b rank to not stack up

[sharp condor]

there's a reason they're B rank

[pseudo heron]

there seems to be an assumption that low-ranked players are just miniature high-ranked players, but this assumption ignores the fact that low-ranked players have far less knowledge about the game (including far less knowledge about openers)

[sharp condor]

no one is assuming this

[mental storm]

did garbo not do the "dt cannon only account" shit that one time where he literally waited for opponent to stack 8 lines, then spike as his only gameplay?

[sharp condor]

lol

[mental storm]

and that shit was viable in b wasnt it?

maybe a? idr

[tight harbor]

you don't need any knowledge of opener

there's a X rank who doesn't know any opener

[pseudo heron]

I'm not talking about X ranks

[tight harbor]

it's honestly just working on your fundamental

[open lion]

Ppl in general

[ruby comet]

i learned stickspin a few weeks into playing, and instantly shot up to S rank (which is not high rank but still top 15%). so tell me its not easier to just memorize an opener

[sharp condor]

no one said it's not easy to rank up just by memorising an opener

[tight harbor]

I got to S rank in a few weeks without learning opener

so what's your point

[sharp condor]

we're just saying that you can learn counterplay for these openers

[tight harbor]

[mental storm]

we are all saying this what

oh wait not

cant read

[sharp condor]

lol

[ruby comet]

grats on the humble brag, most people will not be able to do that

[open lion]

We should have opener league and no opener league

[sharp condor]

how is taht a humble brag 😭

[mental storm]

no we shouldnt

[pseudo heron]

the fact that it's super duper incredibly easy to shoot up a bunch of ranks by using a particular memorized setup seems to indicate some underlying issue with the game's design

[sharp condor]

you took your own experiecne as an argument and he did the same thing for a counterargument

lol

[open lion]

I can’t tell what I got x with opener or without

[tired flame]

It's is about lack of knowledge in the lower ranks, so saying counter opener is not simple. Where would one have to go to learn this stuff? And that might turn many away. I do agree you don't need them to climb

But need to be aware of them to a degree

[ruby comet]

do you not see how many people in S, SS, U have like 2.5 pps at the opener then drop down to 1.5pps LMFAO

[sharp condor]

this is how openers work

[pseudo heron]

saying "just get better at counterplay lol" doesn't change the fact that most low-ranked players don't know openers or counterplay

[sharp condor]

since they are memorised

[ruby comet]

its just memorization

[sharp condor]

then learn the counterplay 😭

[ruby comet]

nothing interesting

[pseudo heron]

tell that to a B rank

[hybrid depot]

that's easier said than done

you can't expect a lower rank to play like an X rank

[ruby comet]

again its easier to just memorize an opener than learn dynamic play

[hybrid depot]

that's literally why they are lower

[sharp condor]

you don't have to be X rank to send 1 tsd (tki) at the start

[tired flame]

I think the type of gamer who goes into guides and wikis are the minority

Most likengoing in blind

[pseudo heron]

saying "just get better at counterplay lol" is wishful thinking that ignores the fact that most low-ranked players don't understand openers and counterplay

they're not just slow X ranks

[ruby comet]

tki doesnt stop most openers, an average player needs much more

[sharp condor]

literally no one said this

[sharp condor]

i disagree

[hybrid depot]

"improve counterplay" is literally "get better"
which they are already trying to do

[mental storm]

B ranks aren't theorycrafting shit and definitely arent learning to "just tki lol" against sdpc without asking for vod review

[tight harbor]

they don't need to understand counterplay

[sharp condor]

all of us here have been low rank at one point and have had to deal with openers

[tight harbor]

you can literally survive just by playing

[pseudo heron]

B ranks aren't just slow X ranks; they're almost total noobs in comparison

[sharp condor]

no one is saying this 😭

[hybrid depot]

(ouch)

[mental storm]

i'm no one 🙂

[sharp condor]

you're saying B ranks are slow X ranks?

[tight harbor]

yes and?

[pseudo heron]

"just send a TKI at the start" assumes that a B rank has a lot more knowledge than they usually do

[ruby comet]

exactly. this thread feels like high rank opener lovers want to gatekeep the game meta from everyone that hasnt spent the last two years SPAMMING the exact same thing every game

[sharp condor]

idk i'm talking about S ranks here

is stickspin that big of a problem in B rank?

[tight harbor]

tki does stop most openers

[sharp condor]

you guys are all saying stickspin instantly propels you to SS rank

so why are there stickspin mains in B rank

[tight harbor]

ok so let's say stickspin just instantly propels you to SS rank

[tired flame]

C-spin down stack says hi

[hybrid depot]

more like, it propels you to higher than you should

[tight harbor]

if it does propel it

then low rank doesn't have to worry about opener

checkmate

[limber fable]

^^^^^^^^

[open lion]

Tki might become meta in this

[hybrid depot]

so a stickspin B might be a midgame C

[ruby comet]

bro if you think tki will stop a stickspin in C-A rank you have no idea what its like

[sharp condor]

a pretty dirty characterisation

lol

[open lion]

I mean I was in a rank

[ruby comet]

is it wrong tho

[tight harbor]

yep I stopped stickspin just by playing in A rank 👍

[ruby comet]

lol

[pseudo heron]

but there are currently people climbing through the ranks to reach the higher ranks by using openers

[sharp condor]

yes it is 💀

i'm against these changes because it makes my own games feel terrible

[ruby comet]

what else do opener mains do besides spam it at 2.5pps then pray they dont make it to midgame?

[limber fable]

you'll actually find most high rank players aren't opener mains

[tight harbor]

they will get there in no time

[visual cargo]

why is there so many ppl here?

[open lion]

I was in a like 9 month ago I think and I beat them

[tight harbor]

what's 1 or 2 losses going to do anyway

[sharp condor]

yea lol

[pseudo heron]

it's an accurate one though LOL

just get better at midgame lol

[foggy ferry]

this sentence alone is crazy

[sharp condor]

it's definitely not

[ruby comet]

idk im only SS peak

[sharp condor]

why

[foggy ferry]

do you not see the bigger picture

[pseudo heron]

just learn midgame, it's easy

[open lion]

Too hard

[sharp condor]

i see the bigger picture

[limber fable]

what argument are you actually making here

[sharp condor]

i dont see your point

[foggy ferry]

of how much more fun it is for so many others

[hybrid depot]

this is like reading 3 conversations at once

[sharp condor]

would you like to 1v1 🙂

[limber fable]

are you just saying that to fill in the chat or are you trying to make a genuine argument

[tired flame]

Yeah vonid what's your point?

[pseudo heron]

I'm parodying the opener main non-argument of "just get better at opener counterplay lol"

[foggy ferry]

1v1ing to prove your point LMAO

[open lion]

Idk what’s happening

[pseudo heron]

so I present: "just get better at midgame lol"

[limber fable]

not the play unfortunately

[sharp condor]

i am joking 🙂

[ruby comet]

opener mains: just counter!!!!
everyone else: midgame is more fun!!!!

[tight harbor]

just get better at midgame tbh

it solves opener problem

if you are good at midgame

[tired flame]

Makes sense but currently we are get better both and not only 1

[tight harbor]

opener isn't really a problem

[hybrid depot]

well again. telling someone to get better is not that easy. so idk what you're trying to say

[limber fable]

can we please stop with the logical fallacies and useless name throwing

[sharp condor]

yea lol

[limber fable]

it doesn't help or add to the conversation

[sharp condor]

this has turned into an opener main hate thread

[ruby comet]

its just a bit of humor :// didnt realize we were so serious here

[open lion]

That’s why the bag existssss

[limber fable]

it's literally a free for all here where no one wants to change their opinions

[open lion]

The bag happened because nobody liked opener

/ most

Cause nobody ever complained about mid game

[hybrid depot]

the bag happened because from a skill standpoint, openers should be nerfed

[spiral vessel]

i mean, i'm totally open to some type of opener nerf as long as it doesnt make the game less fun, but this update really makes the game less fun for me

doesnt matter how good i am at playing 7+x, its not as fun

[sharp condor]

yea i agree

[limber fable]

if the problem truly is the opener, why not nerf the damage in the opener round

[open lion]

I liked the old bag :(

[spiral vessel]

so i oppose it

[limber fable]

if that's truly the issue

[sharp condor]

i couldn't care less if osk removed pcs lol

i really don't like how the opener-midgame phase is so janky now

[mental storm]

yo bet

[spiral vessel]

wellll cuz extended and stuff exists

[hybrid depot]

actually i wanna get deeper (what) into this. what was less fun exactly

was it that you couldnt build an opener, or was it that you struggled to build, period, or somethign else

[tight harbor]

this just feels like april fool tbh

[foggy ferry]

i would agree that there is probably a better middle ground here but imo this is better than current

[sharp condor]

yea fax

[open lion]

Bruh the gameplay would just be tetrises and t spins

[foggy ferry]

there is some merit to everyones points here

[tight harbor]

7 bag is better than 7+x

[limber fable]

that is quite literally the game

[sharp condor]

is it not supposed to be 😭

[tired flame]

Feels like have to speedrun 35 pieces then actually play the game

[open lion]

But it no look funny

[sharp condor]

yea exactly

[tight harbor]

real

let ppl play however they want

more variety = good

[spiral vessel]

well, with openers, things felt super fun and volatile, i felt scared to misdrop, and i was trying to survive to midgame.
but with 7+x, i was already in midgame. i soft dropped my weird s/z bag and just made some boring tspins. it didnt really make me feel any emotions

[hybrid depot]

just cuz the pieces are shit? like, what's happening during those 35 pieces that makes the game shit

[open lion]

Nou

[tired flame]

Cause im smoothbrain 7bagger

[sharp condor]

7+x is very nonintuitive to play with

[limber fable]

would be very helpful if we could compile a list of the core arguments and make them subthreads so we could discuss the validity of them and have one full list in one spot where people can browse through it

[tight harbor]

it's currently just play sprint until you get out of horrible 7+x

[sharp condor]

might as well just disable garbage for thefirst 35 pieces

[limber fable]

ok leave the conversation then

[foggy ferry]

this is probably the worst discord to hop back into ima be real 😭

[limber fable]

no you're just yapping

[open lion]

Uhh idk

[limber fable]

i don't play the game either dawg this just is not the thread to yap in

[tired flame]

#1233972737576276040 1 14 bag, change garbage messiness/power for x duration seems better than how this is imo

[limber fable]

cry harder ig

[tight harbor]

even opener gaming has a lot more depth and dynamic than this

[primal gale]

💀⁉️

[sharp condor]

yea have you seen the opener meta now

it's like

6-3, c4w, 9-0 or what

like what else are you supposed to do

[spiral vessel]

i feel like 7+x, if permanently implemented in tl, would be a ridiculous overreaction to what is to some a """problem"""

[sharp condor]

it's so stale seeing these eevery game

[spiral vessel]

its just

[hybrid depot]

so do you just dislike midgame? (serious question)

[spiral vessel]

like

[merry breach]

havent played in tl but played some custom games and like

[spiral vessel]

no! i actually love midgame! its just the midgame that comes from opener is so much more fun and is something i love

[primal gale]

of course we don't dislike midgame but there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater

[merry breach]

this honestly isnt that bad

[primal gale]

openers can be healthy to the game!

[merry breach]

its a little awkward but thats because we arent used to it

[tight harbor]

opener and midgame are not unrelated

[spiral vessel]

whereas the midgame im forced into from the start is dumb and disgusting

[primal gale]

they support a good transition to midgame when used right!

[tight harbor]

having opener or not does shape how midgame is

[spiral vessel]

EXACTLY

and everyone loves a good midgame

[sharp condor]

we wouldn't be supporting reduced damage openers or whatever if we hated midgame

7+x just feels terrible to play with

[spiral vessel]

honestly, yeah

[tight harbor]

7+x is just sprint outta 7+x until it becomes 7

[hybrid depot]

ok yeah makes sense

[spiral vessel]

im glad osk put this in tl for a day or so tbh, good discussion

and i myself am learning a lot about what i value in tl

[tight harbor]

true

and how opener shapes midgame

[spiral vessel]

(im not going to play any tl )

[spiral vessel]

yeah

theres a lot of difference between 7+x midgame and out-of-opener midgame

[hybrid depot]

to be fair, after like 4 lines worth of midgame the opener has no effect

[wise storm]

or doesn't, cause there are some people in the S ranks that get looped by someone playing double their speed

[tight harbor]

not really

it takes like 2mins to get back

[hybrid depot]

ok but what really changes? all that teh opener does to midgame is affect where your quad well is

[tight harbor]

from my experience on 7+x

[tight harbor]

no it does change garbage flow

midgame becomes a lot less aggressive with 7+x

[hybrid depot]

well doesn't that just dissipate after like, 20 lines

[limber fable]

i would actually hard disagree and here's why

openers help set your board up for something you can continue with later; there's a lot of pattern recognition also comes into play and there's certain things you can have the foresight significantly easier than with a more random board state

[spiral vessel]

honestly, i'd say this is an issue on the opener main's part- they havent gotten good enough to stay highly rated when their opener isn't a factor

[tight harbor]

no because of garbage ping pong

it takes longer

it becomes like normal game tho after 2min

from my experience

[sharp condor]

problematic for the opener main's opponent though

[hybrid depot]

i can't imagine how it takes 2 minutes but ok i can kinda understand in general

[sharp condor]

since it's not fun to have a free loss against someone double your speed

although i feel like those situations aren't that common

[spiral vessel]

ye

that is true

[hybrid depot]

so midgame with more ping pong is better? (or less?)

[sharp condor]

more

[tight harbor]

more

[sharp condor]

i saw a lot of people say midgame is less fun because there is way less influx of clean

[hybrid depot]

wait how are we defining "ping pong"

[tight harbor]

it feels like we playing without any real risk rn

[hybrid depot]

tanking and counterspiking?

[sharp condor]

like the game is inherently cheesier

[tight harbor]

until we got enough b2b

[limber fable]

debuff opener and buff midgame damages

[dusk forge]

Wha

[spring minnow]

no intuition rng piece stack 🤯

[sharp condor]

buff midgame is too much i think

tetrio midgame is already pretty high attack

[spiral vessel]

yeah tbh

[sharp condor]

yea like classic is not fun to me for this reason

getting szsz queue is not fun

[spiral vessel]

ye..

[sharp condor]

and now it's pretty realistic to get ZZZ queue

[spiral vessel]

its just

not

as

fun

[sharp condor]

i think 4pps opener mains at lower ranks are problematic but i would strongly prefer an alternative solution to 7+x

[hybrid depot]

so if we like clean-garbage midgame then what do we say about just cleaner garbage in the opening

[sharp condor]

an idea that came up yesterday was reducing previews in opener phase

[hybrid depot]

(this may actually be off topic)

[tight harbor]

4pps opener mains at lower ranks are not going to be lower ranks in no time

[sharp condor]

which would reduce the buildability of openers as well as reduce speed at the start

[spiral vessel]

eesh, that just sounds kinda nasty

[sharp condor]

this way you can reach midgame without fucking up bags

[sharp condor]

try it and see, i think it's a good idea personally

[tight harbor]

isn't it fine the way it is rn?

[spiral vessel]

how can you try it?

[hybrid depot]

i would like the preview suggestion if it wasn't so gimmicky

[sharp condor]

idk just play witih less previews

what makes it gimmicky

[dusk forge]

Well even if they somehow crushing the lower rank with opener, they cant even survive with only that in high rank..... so whats the point....

[sharp condor]

i think 7+x is incredibly gimmicky

[spring minnow]

fr

[wise storm]

they'll always be an issue cause they'll get to the higher ranks, lose to them, then be back to destroy the lower ranks again

[hybrid depot]

ok that is true

[spiral vessel]

yep

[sharp condor]

idk my idea was like

[hybrid depot]

i'll give you that

[spiral vessel]

gimmicks = bad

[sharp condor]

1 preview for first bag, 2 previews for sceond bag ...

and then u go back to 5 previews for the 5th bag

[tight harbor]

which is good because it acts like gatekeeping zone for fundamental

👍

[sharp condor]

this disrupts the opener phase way less

yet it solves all the problems that i have seen discussed

[hybrid depot]

well no the whole point of that is that it does

[tight harbor]

you can get pass through them if you have enough fundamental

[spiral vessel]

WAIT GUYS
i figured out a good way to nerf openers without changing bags!!!!
Just ping every low rank on discord and show them a tki tutorial!!

[sharp condor]

i'm not a game designer so i have no clue if this would be good, especially for players of different skills and playstyles and whatever

but as a player i think that i would prefer to play that a lot more than 7+x

from my limited experience with reduced previews in custom rulesets

[dusk forge]

And now lets ping all opener main to stall the block till they do tspin

[spiral vessel]

it would have to be reduced to like

1 preview

[sharp condor]

like this

[spiral vessel]

ah

[tight harbor]

tki is pretty low kpp so it's easy to do fast

and even if you are slower

[spiral vessel]

1 preview for first bag..

[tight harbor]

you can just cancel or tank and counterspike

how do you think I am getting through opener mains with sub 2pps opener in U rank

[sharp condor]

well you have your current piece, next piece, and hold piece

but idk i just said 1 preview arbitrarily

[dusk forge]

I can still do opener even if i only have 1 preview tho?

[sharp condor]

it is significantly harder

and you are definitely slowed down

[spiral vessel]

yeah true

[tight harbor]

yep we should try that suggestion next

[dusk forge]

Only early IO that can mess up the board completely if doing pco setup

[spiral vessel]

but then again the other person is also slowed down

and probably more so

because they arent the opener main

[sharp condor]

go into a custom game and set previews to 1

and see how fast you can do your opener

i promise you that you will do it significantly slower

[spiral vessel]

yeah i've done 1 preview games

[tight harbor]

most of the opener main's speed come from knowing the preview

[dusk forge]

Let me try to tape a paper so i can only see 1 preview

[sharp condor]

this would be your view at teh start of the game

[spiral vessel]

dang i gotta eat

[sharp condor]

like

what opener would i even do here lol

[tight harbor]

stitch?

[sharp condor]

no clue if sdpc is possible because i can't see O pieces

[tight harbor]

pco is also safe

[sharp condor]

so it's risky to just try build it and pray it works

[tight harbor]

I think

[sharp condor]

pco is not 100%

[sterile pagoda]

pco or jaws

[still mica]

see square = stickspin

[sharp condor]

but it is close

[still mica]

or sdpcspin

[tight harbor]

isn't pco 100% with early S/Z?

[sharp condor]

ok but you are also limited by reaction time in this scenario

[sharp condor]

SZOI queue

[tight harbor]

oh

[dusk forge]

Yeah i can still do 2 pps with only 1 preview

[tight harbor]

what about jigsaw

[fresh ermine]

the point is to nerf openers not to nerf the overall possibilities that the player have in the beginning

[spring minnow]

2 pps is mega slower lmao

[dusk forge]

And i can always fail my first pc so i can get the 100% pc setup on 2nd pc

[fresh ermine]

7+x lets players look for freestyle stuff

[sharp condor]

🤔

my experiecne with 7+x is that everyone is doing 6-3, 9-0, or 4w

[spring minnow]

the freestyle in question: 10q40l

[sharp condor]

it's very difficult to freestyle a tsd pattern

[tight harbor]

nah ppl just sprint to get out of 7+x asap

[sharp condor]

like what do you do if your starting queue is full of SZ pieces

[charred walrus]

ye if you expected people to like do this then ur trolling hard

[sharp condor]

lol

[tight harbor]

you are dead if you trying to look for fancy

[fresh ermine]

then it is working

opener phase skipped