7+X-Bag in TL

[winged tartan]

sure, they rank up
but if you aren't doing it, then you're also gonna hit a brick wall where nobody else is not doing it

[loud hazel]

yada yada someone spends time memorizing a true combo in tekken, kills the other guy

[hollow mist]

OPENER GAMING YESSIR

[boreal drift]

What I'm saying is that it's bad for user retention on the recieving end

[long palm]

yeah

[boreal drift]

Also tetr.io has a major tilt culture

[loud hazel]

the other player quits and boom tekken loses another player

[grand topaz]

A single MD makes them C- Stacking making them go nowhere

[hardy beacon]

a single md can ruin a game for the best players every now and then

[grand topaz]

Lol not really

[winged tartan]

yeah not really

[grand topaz]

They can make so many other shapes instead

[boreal drift]

Debatable

[rare sequoia]

The guy on the right is doing something akin to lst though, it's more freestyle than sdpc

[loud hazel]

every competitive game has a major tilt culture?

[hollow mist]

at higher ranks they just become complicated tst tower setups

[loud hazel]

and so what

should we cater towards the complainers unwilling to overcome

[grand topaz]

It's actually DT into TST Tower, there was no follow-up

[hollow mist]

or in some ppls case

[loud hazel]

or to the people trying to improve

[hollow mist]

polymer t spin setups

[rare sequoia]

Oh I thought it was the infinite cspin tower thingy

[grand topaz]

considering they are 92% of player base, yes

[boreal drift]

Lol

Thanks for the stats

[loud hazel]

the source is that i made it the fuck up

[grand topaz]

didn't go that far. ITST is wild tho

[winged tartan]

it's still an overwhelming majority

[rare sequoia]

Ranks are percentile based

[grand topaz]

You don't really watch SS rank gameplay and below do you

[loud hazel]

yeah

[winged tartan]

think about how often vanilla https://four.lol is suggested to rando new people
wouldn't they already know? aren't they trying to improve? are they stupid?

[grand topaz]

To deflect opener-main people are Generally at least Low U, so top 6%

[hardy beacon]

im a new chess player getting crushed by the opener; going to email chess to randomize piece start locations to mix things up so i win more

[loud hazel]

chess960 no way

[rare sequoia]

Bobby Fischer:

[boreal drift]

And even then, opener mains are still a big pain to deal with in higher ranks too

[grand topaz]

how would anyone know of four.lol without being told about it tbf

[winged tartan]

for what it's worth the chess opening scene is a major contributor of why i don't play chess

[buoyant drum]

you can't 5pps sdpc in chess though, tetris isn't turn based

[winged tartan]

i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH-txHzE4jA is pretty stupid

[hardy beacon]

it might asweell be some players cant overcome the speeds like its unfair

[grand topaz]

it really is, "oh I got early O and got the SDPC/DPC I win otherwise it's inf-ds until margin time"

[boreal drift]

Trust me, I'm speaking from experience

[loud hazel]

the best player of all time vs a random guy

[tight harbor]

whether you learn complicated opener or not is optional in tetris

[boreal drift]

Dealing with opener mains is a paaaaaain

[long palm]

ive gotten used to that kinda stuff

like

[winged tartan]

the issue is literally every move is outlined already

[grand topaz]

well yes. But it's an issue of the 7-bag

[winged tartan]

yes it's funny that it happened to bill gates, but every move

[long palm]

usually 1st 4p rng determines if i opener or not

[winged tartan]

it's in a Book

that's hella unappealing to me

[odd dew]

like becoming opener main yourself

[grand topaz]

Objectively it's better if the game doesn't revolve around pure repetition

[signal crypt]

shouldve linked a london system video instead lol

[long palm]

already am one

[buoyant drum]

same

[empty pike]

Played a few games, I liked it (2 pennies)

[boreal drift]

Obligatory announcement, we've hit 4k messages

[hollow mist]

u tried looking at najdorf theory before?

absolutely disgusting

[buoyant drum]

🔥 topic rn

[grand topaz]

pro

[boreal drift]

wdym pro

[loud hazel]

7+X literally goes back to the same 7 bag you hate so much

[signal crypt]

theory can be played according to how your opponent plays

[winged tartan]

that's not why "we hate 7 bag so much"

[tight harbor]

at least opener is more variety than spamming 6-3

[signal crypt]

setup opening is literally you pre moving every single piece and then sit there

[grand topaz]

I'm aware, I prefer 7+1, but at least no SDPC

[winged tartan]

you're resorting to some pretty dirty argument tactics

[boreal drift]

That's a strawman argument if I've seen any

[loud hazel]

im talking about that guy in particular

[boreal drift]

There has been zero mention of hating on 7 bag

[odd dew]

6-3 with cool tspin has more variety

[winged tartan]

yeah i felt the same about this when it came to vincehd's blitz runs

[grand topaz]

technically I did say I think 7-bag predictability is a design flaw of modern

[loud hazel]

7+1 allows for openers to be created without that many problems

[grand topaz]

Same reason why watching TE:C score attack is more boring than watching paint dry

[winged tartan]

then he converted to doing the whole PC loop and i just don't give a shit about his blitz runs anymore

[rare sequoia]

The cool tspins are only in higher ranks

[boreal drift]

[grand topaz]

doremy blitz still b2b

[rare sequoia]

There was some a while back in the thread

[boreal drift]

Oh actually?

[rare sequoia]

from zhun

[boreal drift]

Darn

[grand topaz]

the cool t-spins are only in high ranks because people are told to "just 9-0 and learn an opener"

[boreal drift]

That's a flaw of the community tbf

[grand topaz]

Opener culture

[rare sequoia]

No because high ranks are better at tspins and the game

[grand topaz]

and now with 7+X this becomes more focus than looping

Executing same piece placement for 4 bag every game

[signal crypt]

the issue is the beginners lacking the fundamental to maintain a clean stack

[minor coral]

because the game design encourages opener crutching rather than learning midgame

[rare sequoia]

that doesn't suddenly make the lower ranked players great at tspinning

[signal crypt]

not even talking about how to get the clean t-spins

[loud hazel]

show me a single c-a rank dpc looping

actually looping

[solemn grove]

the only practical openers in 7+x is either to pc using high % setups or make like three t-spins timed correctly to get a downstack

[boreal drift]

I'll throw you any taws vod

[loud hazel]

the kind of looping blitz mains do at ss-x rank

[long palm]

uhm

[minor coral]

i’ll throw you one of the dozens of false cheating reports we get against dpc loopers

[long palm]

so true

[grand topaz]

That's really part of the game, but they won't even be able to learn mid-game ds stacking etc because they just die in 15 seconds to SDPC-spin anyway

[minor coral]

except their opponents don’t live long enough for the loop to continue

[long palm]

i have a few games

[winged tartan]

especially the mechanical tspin ones

i don't even really blame them

[long palm]

but theyre too short

[winged tartan]

it does look like a hacked strategy

[long palm]

[grand topaz]

Oh yeah mech TSD is incredibly popular in A to S-

[rare sequoia]

I'm just saying 6-3 gets pretty stale without the flashiness of top players being used as an example

[grand topaz]

but like, then do something else. I do think 7+1 is better because it also breaks LST over time but 7+X also nice

[rare sequoia]

7+1 is way worse

I've already outlined the problems but openers are still easy to lab and dpc can be executed in the first bag

[grand topaz]

Ok but can you follow up dpc

[rare sequoia]

let me check

wait do you mean with more pcs

because if so the answer is yes

extra/missing pieces are common territory for PC loopers, that's how smolfeesh can loop after 1 midgame pc

[long palm]

most reasonably good opener mains will use the first 35 pieces to loop

[rare sequoia]

as well as just high probability setups

[long palm]

thats the exact length of the modified bag

[wanton mulch]

soon there's gonna be 7+x opener mains 😔

[grand topaz]

7+1+X bag when

[rare sequoia]

7+x is already extreme enough

[long palm]

i feel like theres gonna be a very playing forever-esque opener

[grand topaz]

Yeah I'm partly kidding

I'm happy with the extra variation

[long palm]

but parity is an issue

with labbing these openers

[tight harbor]

I would quit if 7+1 becomes default

[sour jackal]

Was it reverted

[winged tartan]

please review the pins

[rare sequoia]

It's over in 9 hours according to the pins

[odd dew]

sad

[sour jackal]

How do you see the pins

[winged tartan]

mobile?

[sour jackal]

Yes

[boreal drift]

are you on mobile

[winged tartan]

apparently you hit the thread title, then go into the thread settings

[boreal drift]

They're supposedly behind settings

thread settings

For some reason.??

[winged tartan]

[odd dew]

that’s really bad ui

they have more space to put buttons there other than just mute and settings

[rare sequoia]

Discord mobile is incredibly terrible

before you couldn't even search the whole server, you were limited to the channel you were currently in

[opal hamlet]

I’d rather have an easy way to access dms than to have to scroll all the way to the top like on desktop

[minor coral]

if they move dms back into the corner for me i will scream

[odd dew]

they can have the dms pinned in the corner though

[grand topaz]

Discord UX designer for actual users challenge: failed

[buoyant drum]

maybe they literally didn't know the features of the app

[long palm]

Yeah reading pins is awful on mobile

[buoyant drum]

quite possible

[nova thicket]

lol this is a terrible example, anyone who plays chess knows you don’t play Bd3???? infront of the pawns on move 3, you can’t develop or take the center. that’s why he lost, not theory lol

[winged tartan]

eh, maybe it's an indication that as an outsider this still looked like an unimpressive opener moment

either way it compells me away from chess

[grand topaz]

It's really not that different here

[plain sandal]

@winged tartan do chess openings really matter unless you're like, properly good? like sure you can try give yourself a bit of an advantage by learning some of a couple of openings and knowing the general ideas and stuff but, realistically you're gonna be out of book pretty soon right

ultimately the better player is gonna win regardless of opener knowledge most of the time i would imagine

[winged tartan]

frankly no idea lol
all i can tell you is that the few times anyone's tried to play chess with me, i think they were in that paradigm of "too good to play casually, too bad to play professionally" and they were just beyond my comprehension
i really truthfully don't know how much of that is down to openers

[grand topaz]

Common stance is "I don't want to learn an opener I just want to play the game"

Some people just want freestyle open or 9-0 open to be viable

[tight harbor]

not learning opener is viable

[grand topaz]

Without getting SDPC'd in 8 seconds

[grand topaz]

Yes, in B-

[tight harbor]

it's still viable in U

so far

idk about X

not there yet

[plain sandal]

probably very little

[grand topaz]

Yes I dunno about X either can't win against 24.5k

[plain sandal]

it's one thing to get a good position out of the opening, it's another thing to know how to convert that

[tight harbor]

I guess it's also viable in X

since I know a X rank who doesn't know any opener

[grand topaz]

too bad to play competitively, too good to play casually - high SS to mid U moment

Or in global (open) games, anyone below top 30 haha

[dreamy talon]

Me fr fr

Tho if this change is permanent my channel becomes irrelevant

[boreal drift]

Oh no my 4 opener videos

[bitter basalt]

Oh no my sdpc

noooo

[dreamy talon]

I could not care less tho

[bitter basalt]

its okay

im not opener main

[tight harbor]

ohno change

[bitter basalt]

maybe 6-3 will be best opener rn

[primal gale]

I played one game of TL with this and even knowing full well exactly what I was getting into it was still way more stressful than normal tl

maybe because I was trying to prove to myself that yes I can still play without openers but idk

I appreciate it happening as a temporary thing and it definitely made me want to play it more in customs (as someone who hadn't actually tried it before today) but do I want it becoming the new normal in ranked? not really

[long palm]

yeah this being the new norm would... make tl way too fundamentally different

[primal gale]

also hot take I feel like this being a permanent option as a separate queue would just serve to leave classic queue even more opener main-infested than ever

maybe make it something like tec connected versus queue, where it comes around every week or smth as a separate option?

[winged tartan]

frankly i don't think enough people would migrate
then it'd just be jstris+ all over. queue times are longer, so people leave, so the queue times are lon-nobody's even around to make one match anymore

[buoyant drum]

do it osk

[grand topaz]

is it still relevant? Like, do analytics show people watching stuff

[grand topaz]

it would be quite confusing to have only 1 TR for 2 matchmaking

[long palm]

yeahhhh

[buoyant drum]

true but i was just memeing about a second queue

[long palm]

id never touch 7+X then

[buoyant drum]

it's not going to happen i don't think devs would split up the player base

[winged tartan]

i don't think the playerbase would be split up, because nobody would venture to actually populate this mode

[primal gale]

geoguessr makes one rating for 3 queues work and I don't understand why they do that

[winged tartan]

7+X has been available in customs for weeks now, and when i audited public and private rooms, the numbers just weren't impressive

well, like osk says
this's why it was just dropped on the community like an anvil

[primal gale]

this definitely served to shove it into the limelight and I'll always see it as a viable option for customs now

[buoyant drum]

ok but think about this:

• gets crushed by opener
• queues 7+X
• gets crushed by midgame
• queues classic
  ...

[dreamy talon]

in practice it changes nothing apart from openers

so its not bad but fucks with muscle memory

and idk but maybe games are a little slower paced

[hardy beacon]

honestly im trying not to flame but

[buoyant drum]

i agree there's very little initial momentum

[hardy beacon]

why would a tetris player want tetris to change

[primal gale]

some changes to the game are truly good tbf

Tetris has changed a lot over the years

[hardy beacon]

yea but it hasnt changed the bag in alot of years

like its pretty standard

[primal gale]

as a tetrio player, go play some classic sometime and feel just how much harder it is

[primal gale]

fair

[dreamy talon]

we need to bring up that garbo video again

to highlight the flaws

[tight harbor]

slower paced

[primal gale]

it's been a staple for uh 20 years now?

[hardy beacon]

yea and for good reason

sorry if anyone gets upset by this but there exists a game pentris its like 5 sided piece tetris

[grand topaz]

tbf if people want to queue classic there's te:c

[hardy beacon]

i almost projectile vomited when i learned it exists

[grand topaz]

tetrio has no reason to use standard guideline bag system

[bitter basalt]

I think: For 7-x bag, it would be better to create a new league other than the tetra league

[grand topaz]

It could have 12 wide board and quads only with skills like tetrinet and it'd still be tetrio

[bitter basalt]

i felt it is harder to stacking than 7 bag

[grand topaz]

that's part of the point at the start

[eternal dew]

it is

[primal gale]

what percentage of the people playing tetrio, a free game, will shell out the money for tec

[grand topaz]

Make the game have a bit more random and less repeat

[bitter basalt]

thats really "new game" i think

[primal gale]

I sure as hell know I'm not

[grand topaz]

it often goes on 50% sale

And honestly paying money to receive something is normal part of society

[primal gale]

my parents monitor my credit card I literally have no way to buy

I would if I could

[grand topaz]

Can't you take up cash, put it on PayPal then buy with that on steam

I dunno I'm making things up

PayPal needs you to have a debit card and 18+

[primal gale]

and my parents will know I used my debit card for it :/

[grand topaz]

I guess if you ask nicely you might get it as a gift lmao

[primal gale]

lol

[grand topaz]

But I only would buy it on 50% cuz I'm kinda poor but also an adult with my own money and no monitoring

[primal gale]

the thing is tho jstris+ exists and it is acceptable if people want to figure it out

[winged tartan]

also how many people are still playing classic.....i genuinely don't know

[buoyant drum]

@winged tartan is there an easy way to go to the start of the thread?

[wet vine]

use ur mom's stuff and make a paypal out of that

that's what i did even though i was of legal age

just because im too lazy to get my bank

[primal gale]

classic in this context = 7bag

[winged tartan]

uuhhh the thread creator is an uncaring god, just search in:#feature·request from:310920014188380161

[wet vine]

more than modern? idk it's definitely watched more in terms of tournament

[buoyant drum]

lmao

[winged tartan]

yeah but then they'd want to play on their literal NESes lol

[brazen mantle]

as a chess player, have you ever heard of chess 960?

[plain sandal]

yeah

[primal gale]

my uni has lots of classic players but I'm the only one playing modern with any frequency

[brazen mantle]

sure, openings dont really matter, but they are a fundamental part of the game

get rid of openings and you have a compleytely different game mode

[primal gale]

so classic is def more popular in my neck of the woods

[brazen mantle]

i feel as if its the esame thing here

[plain sandal]

im not denying that

[plain sandal]

true

good comparison

[winged tartan]

i mean it's more popular globally, i'm not denying that lol

i just mean specifically TEC classic

[grand topaz]

tbf thinking about it, if people can stack in classic without any preset bag and 52 I piece droughts, surely it is possible with just 7 extra piece lmao

[winged tartan]

and only one next queue lol

[grand topaz]

Exactly

And no SRS spins aaa

[buoyant drum]

Back in my day we didn't have any bag!!

[winged tartan]

devolve into NEStris because it's more popular

remove online multiplayer

[hardy beacon]

as a long time tetris enthusiast i cant stand classic tetris to watch let alone play

i dont get it

[winged tartan]

oh yeah, i can't either

i live close to where CTWC happens and i just don't care

[hardy beacon]

lol

i respect the players for wat it is

but just theres no thrill in it for me

[buoyant drum]

gkaply532 will remember that...

[winged tartan]

[buoyant drum]

sadly im not coming to the us any time soon

maybe in 3 years!!

[winged tartan]

well it's not even in portland anymore so maybe i wasn't talking about that venue

[bitter basalt]

idk about U and X rank

but on SS, the "luck" became more important than 7 bag

[eternal dew]

for high x it feels like stacking skill are much more.important

[grand topaz]

I'm not sure. Luck was more relevant for "did you get bad cheese pattern before the blitz main gets the loop"

[eternal dew]

compare to normal 7bag which can be done with just memorizing and hand speed through it

[grim otter]

I support 7+X bag

As an SS player, it allows me to actually play the game

[wet vine]

i can't play but bro

watching it is insane

[grim otter]

instead of just opener racing the opponent

[wet vine]

you'd have to experience how hard it is

to see the beauty of it

look at how beautiful their placements are

[bitter basalt]

ill keep neutrality

[pseudo heron]

quick feedback - I like that opener mains have to play the game now; 7+X-Bag still feels nice

however, this buffs 4-wide by removing the only reliable counter that isn't also 4-wide

[bitter basalt]

i think my rank and tr will not be change

[grand topaz]

I think hyper tapping was more exciting to watch than rolling is but it's really off-topic lmao

[wet vine]

zap started it

🫵

[tight harbor]

make 4th bag always 7+T and remove T from +X in earlier bags

stop waste T propaganda

[wet vine]

why not just 7+x all round

won't go back to normal 7bag

[grand topaz]

time to learn waste t setups

[tight harbor]

NOOOOO

learning setups

😭

literally opener all over again

[eternal dew]

time to freestyle

[wet vine]

i prefer freestyling in normal 7 bag lol

practicing 4w just for 7+x

[loud hazel]

real

[eternal dew]

you get rekt freestyling in front of 4pps lst sdpc

[loud hazel]

ppl talking about openers like beginners are immune to getting crushed by good midgame

[lament elm]

[scenic slate]

Pc spam

[grand topaz]

ok but you also don't see good midgame crushing good midgame in B+ only strats like mech TSD or SDPC or MS2 or sdpc-spin/stickspin, basically multi-bag openers

[grand topaz]

I like it very elegant.

Stickspin into 3 APM way too common in lower rank

[lament elm]

i love practicing to build up attack from nothing on the board

now it pays up in 7+X

only problem is im on vacation

[drifting veldt]

this is fun

[grand topaz]

It is!

[hardy beacon]

for who exactly

[wet vine]

it is not

[drifting veldt]

midgame enjoyers rise up

[loud hazel]

it is not

[grand topaz]

I cannot relate to your assessment

[pseudo heron]

I like it

just gotta stack more carefully at the start

actually think about your initial placements

[wet vine]

and then u get destroyed by striders

1 pps faster than u

fun

[grand topaz]

I mean that's already how it's always been

At least I lose to stride, not SDPC/DPC

[wet vine]

no, u can atleast destroy striders

rn i have harder time dealing with striders, more than before

since 9-0 is quite op

[drifting veldt]

lol

[honest oriole]

long pco

[drifting veldt]

i followed with a tki after

worst mistake of my life

[grim otter]

It also feels that I take my losses better now

like it is truly because the opponent played better

not because one single opener MD

[dire zenith]

rounds are def longer

[loud hazel]

quick reminder that O O S Z S Z is a real starting bag that can happen

[drifting veldt]

14 bag when

[hardy beacon]

just give us gameboy random and disable the next que so each player is forced to really feel the moment in a fair way that protects all vulnerable gamers from being victimized by the oppressive opener

[wet vine]

do u prefer it westl?

[dire zenith]

idk really yet

haven’t played that much

[loud hazel]

real

[wet vine]

hmm fair enough

[dire zenith]

starting games feels much less smooth and exciting tho

i end up skimming or wasting too many t there’s no satisfying clean upstack

still very interesting

[wet vine]

i like the fact that there's no opener but idk i dont like it

[grim otter]

It is possible to get more Ts in first few bags too tho?

[wet vine]

yeah that

even after i reach the normal 7bag

[loud hazel]

it feels like the game starts from minute 2 or smth except there is no garbage or upstack to work with

[wet vine]

i skim too much

doesn't feel satisfactory

[loud hazel]

doing midgame with openers and without them feels way different for whatever reason

[dire zenith]

idk it also almost feels like all the work i put into learning optimized DPC is now redundant except for blitz

[grim otter]

I like the "freestyle" aspect in the beginning

skimming basically

[loud hazel]

skimming isnt fun imo

even though i do it a lot

[grim otter]

maybe because of my playstyle too

I tend to inf ds

[dire zenith]

i used to get like 5pps rounds where i started with opener and then it was just back and forth clean which felt really satisfying and fun to play

[tight harbor]

unholy amount of wasted Ts if you get extra T in early bag

[grim otter]

I have seen people somehow managing to get nice setups tho

[loud hazel]

yeah

something like a dt cannon is easy build

[grim otter]

Ye, dt new meta

[loud hazel]

just the stack is a little bit more freestyle

[grim otter]

lol

bring back the good ol DT days

alongside the 4 and 3 wides

[loud hazel]

this is probably what going to happen

and i dont like this possibility at all

[dire zenith]

no .

[loud hazel]

i mean i already saw a couple of 3 widers but im low u so my opinion doesnt count

[grim otter]

would the 7+X not mess up c4w stacking tho

more dependencies and stuff

[wet vine]

it does

u can always just skim

[grim otter]

true

[loud hazel]

4w is literally the skim opener

[grim otter]

Opinions from all ranks count, I think that is OSK's intention

[drifting veldt]

i do like this change

[grim otter]

since most of the fanbase aren't even X

[drifting veldt]

high ss is no longer race to see who can pull off their opener first

[dim quest]

so this is the origin of 7+x day

[loud hazel]

idk it felt kinda cool for me

the whole opener race

[dim quest]

oh fr?

[oblique apex]

BEST CHANGE EVER

[dim quest]

DT supremacy

[drifting veldt]

mad annoying

[grim otter]

players get to enjoy the game, whether they are X or not

[oblique apex]

no more skilless gameplay

[grim otter]

Same

[drifting veldt]

because you can just randomly queue into a guy that pulls 3pps out of their ass

[grim otter]

Dude IKR???

[loud hazel]

i do not enjoy the game with 7+X as much

[loud hazel]

(thats me)

[grim otter]

No longer get anxiety over early O

[loud hazel]

except more like 3.8

[grim otter]

and race and see who MDs first

[loud hazel]

this is fun

[grim otter]

it stressful af for me x.x

which was one of the main reasons I stopped playing TL for a while

now I back and like the new change

[mystic yoke]

after the TRs fall in line, the higher pps people would rise, and then it would be standard

[dim quest]

tbh as a B+ rank I like that now I'm forced to try and stack cleanly instead of winning via openers

[grim otter]

the only thing I am worried about

is if widing becomes new meta

[dim quest]

oh nah

please no

[grim otter]

thourgh I believe 6-3 stacking can stil sorta counter that?

[drifting veldt]

doubt

[loud hazel]

doing openers really fast as a main way to counter 4wide is gone now

[drifting veldt]

normal 4w maybe

[grim otter]

just gotta stack like 1 TSD 2 quads and it should cancel most of it no?

[loud hazel]

there is still quite a lot of counterplay though with 6-3

[tight harbor]

kinda oof if you get extra T earlier

[dim quest]

Stacking up high then smashing two quads in a row

[wet vine]

yeah, all u can do is send 4 lines to atleast counter some...

[dim quest]

All the time

[grim otter]

you get to free waste a T then

[wet vine]

or try to build a tspin + a tetris

[loud hazel]

i just feel that removing openers is not a solution

nerfing their attacks - is

[grim otter]

like if you get extra free Ts

isn't it fine to waste them then

[slender torrent]

yay

[wet vine]

ngl if the 4w'er is smart, they could just stop the 4w and tank the tetris/quad

then funnel to that 4 line garbage

[loud hazel]

Soooo fun!!!

no more openers this has to be heaven

!!!

[grim otter]

hmm what if send a tss first

then only send the quads

[hushed oxide]

menace

[wet vine]

they can still cancel the tss

then build back again

[grim otter]

ew

I hate those types

[wet vine]

i mean, that's strategy

[loud hazel]

how about the most annoying ass playstyle ever

build c4w

not quite finish it

build it back

[grim otter]

4 widers are not supposed to strategize

[grand topaz]

Can't be more annoying than SDPC

[winged tartan]

i feel like this osk quote is pretty stupidly relevant to this conversation

[loud hazel]

repeat

[loud hazel]

nuh uh

[winged tartan]

you guys keep on saying 4 wide is stupidly overpowered and it is now the tetr.io meta, but beyond those two clips i haven't really seen it

[loud hazel]

we're theory crafting

[grim otter]

in 7+X, c4w can be much more annoying to stack no?

[winged tartan]

this isn't theorycrafting

it's shitting on the experiment to push your opinion of the mechanic

[loud hazel]

fair

[wet vine]

not stupidly overpowered but definitely annoying to deal with

[grim otter]

people will defo find effective ways to deal with it soon

since this is new atm

[loud hazel]

counterpoint: on the internet only your opinion is valid and you have to push it with any means necessary

[wet vine]

i still don't know how to counter it but i think unless they can send a quad at the end, it's mostly cheese garbage

[hardy beacon]

will they find it tho cos like its going away soon hopefully and restricted to custom forever

[wet vine]

not very much real threat

[wet vine]

it's only for today

atleast for now

[grim otter]

I sure hope they don't get to send a quad in the end yikes

[loud hazel]

yeah

[tight harbor]

so it is just wasted T

[buoyant drum]

4.5K messages

[wet vine]

i like it cuz no opener but i dont like it, midgame feels different

[tight harbor]

4w on its own still send 20+ attack without quad or something

[grand topaz]

not really, just Pro-opener pushing "opener good" and otherwise "openers are bad for low ranks" or something

[grim otter]

1 TSD and two Quads can cancel everything tho

[wet vine]

yes, but idk, i tend to skim more even after the first 5 bags or something

[grand topaz]

It is indeed +1 bag merged across the first 4 bags

[loud hazel]

opener good

[loud hazel]

opener good

[grand topaz]

Literally any rank gameplay says otherwise

[loud hazel]

opener good

okay

[tight harbor]

lotta cheeses

[loud hazel]

i was planning on only sending 3 messages anyways

[tight harbor]

it's not op but certainly takes more effort to deal with than opener

[grim otter]

Ehh I respectfully disagree

openers are much more killer imo

[tight harbor]

my experience so far is that I rarely struggle against kill opener

at same skill level

ofc I would die if they pc loop at 5+pps but they are just better

[grim otter]

for me, I end up always needing to race the opponent when early O

[loud hazel]

to be fair nobody at S+ pc loops at 5pps

lets face it

[grim otter]

and it becomes who "MDs first"

[tight harbor]

I just chill in early O and still works

[wet vine]

#1225191549881810965 message literally this argument, less smoth but more exciting but less clean and satisfactory

[grim otter]

He is not really S+

lmao

[tight harbor]

wdym I am clearly S+

[loud hazel]

idk i just read the people's names here

[wet vine]

would be nice if we're given a week of this to really know

1 day of playing just isn't enough

[tight harbor]

yep

[grim otter]

lots of smurfs here

[loud hazel]

tl will be unplayable for a week yipeee

[wet vine]

wow i didn't expect u to agree lmao, cuz u hate this so much

[grim otter]

I think he was being sarcastic

[tight harbor]

it's kinda boring so far but

[primal gale]

also with a week you have to play tl or risk rising rd

[tight harbor]

I also want to know what ppl come up with

maybe it could be interesting then

but so far eh

[wet vine]

yep, i kinda like it but at the same time, meh

[grim otter]

think about the bright side, some of us will get to touch grass for one whole week

[loud hazel]

true

[tight harbor]

I rarely play TL to begin with so it doesn't really affect me

[grand topaz]

unplayable how? People are literally playing right now

[rare crystal]

most of the people complaining are those who main openers and don’t actually play the game

[loud hazel]

i dont even main openers that much

[tight harbor]

when has TL been playable to begin with

[loud hazel]

i use them just as a midgame transition

i do most of my kills not in the opener but past it

[tight harbor]

eh honestly let ppl enjoy the game however they want

[rare crystal]

yeah ik

[tight harbor]

opener complainers are just taking fake moral highground

[rare crystal]

lmao

im fine with 7+X bag i’m enjoying it

something new

[tight harbor]

true it's fun at first

[atomic echo]

I think the main complaint is you start with an empty board with no clue what to do

[wet vine]

and weird pieces

zzoo at the start

[loud hazel]

#1225191549881810965 message

[wet vine]

screenshot?

[wet vine]

bro i mean the queue with that pieces

[loud hazel]

oh

[vast matrix]

hell

[loud hazel]

i havent seen it, yet, but ill try restarting custom games to try and catch it

[grand topaz]

SDPC in bio

[loud hazel]

its a neat little tetris bit in my bio

it just shows that i play modern

[grand topaz]

There's an extra piece of 3,2,1,1 in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th bags respectively

So it becomes regular 7 bag after 35 pieces (4 bag + 1 extra merged)

[loud hazel]

close contender

the t though makes it easy

i havent hit that exact misery bag yet but have seen some really close ones

[lament elm]

meh

doesnt seem that ba

good prospect

took me a few seconds

[vast matrix]

being able to see this is insane

[lament elm]

give me more queue

[bitter jackal]

doesnt 7+X just favor people who know all the pc solves for 10 pc

[lament elm]

how do you know all pc solves

[vast matrix]

in the middle of a tetra league game there were rounds where i couldnt see anything that i could place without making a mess then i looked at the replay and eventually found something

[loud hazel]

idk ask fesh

[lament elm]

but yes, they are more resistant to this opener nerf

the PCplayers

[vast matrix]

but to see it in the middle of a game in 3 seconds is way harder

[wet vine]

wtf

[loud hazel]

i just think the best solution to the opener problem is to nerf the attack

why i havent seen people actually consider it

why do we have to stick with the extreme options

[lament elm]

how do you nerf without making it unfun

big b2b gives less pc?

[loud hazel]

idk 30% less garbo in the first few bags

[long palm]

Or pc gang

[loud hazel]

or something

[vast matrix]

negative b2b at the start of the game

[lament elm]

what a drags

[wet vine]

we talked about it, b2b and opener isn't that strong but if ur fast enough, that's where the problem is

[lament elm]

???

[vast matrix]

LET ME COOK

LMAO

[wet vine]

basically speed rules

[loud hazel]

i love speed

speed gang 4ever

[vast matrix]

imagine you start with b2b -2, you can break out of it by clearing 1 line but if you just do an opener then you send -1 line for 2 tspins

this is the worst idea of all time

[lament elm]

what... about...

yknow

freestyle b2b...?

[vast matrix]

look

i dont claim to have the answers im just putting the craziest idea i just thought of

LMAO

[lament elm]

wtf you're makng the crazy guy into be_scari

[tight harbor]

me with my skim opener (stitch)

when breaking b2b is optimal

[wanton mulch]

kick people from joining tl matches if the pieces are organized in such a way, in a prepared list named "opener list"
boom opener begone

[vast matrix]

it would be very funny

[vast matrix]

O early = banned

[tight harbor]

poor beginners who accidentally make opener shape

[wanton mulch]

unlucky for them

[hardy beacon]

tag em n bag em

[honest oriole]

making singleyou shape disconnects you immediately

[lament elm]

time to add around what

[tight harbor]

what would yuu think if they know their opener is specifically banned

[lament elm]

hmm that's less than i thought

[tight harbor]

is my kaidan into 6-3 included there?

[wet vine]

imagine if we train ai to recognize opener and it won't send any lines if u do that

ultimate ban on opener lol

[lament elm]

idk

what's that

[atomic echo]

I'm telling you guys this is a perfect time to introduce the character system and just have one character's purpose be anti opener

[lament elm]

if jp then prob

[tight harbor]

waste T horizontally

place box in 3 side

fill rest of the volume and overhang

sorta freestyle'ish

[lament elm]

now this is cooking
Trashy the chef, not a cooker 🗣️

[vast matrix]

i feel like 7+x bags being part of some characters would be interesting as hell

i was thinking about that

[honest oriole]

if you get sent more than 12 lines at once you get battle royale style sends for 10 minutes

[vast matrix]

not all characters would have it (because the color clear one wouldnt be able to exist lol) but some of them having it would be cool

[atomic echo]

Fr have one character's active ability can be "Your opponent's next bags are 7+x"

[vast matrix]

oh that would be hilarious too

[tight harbor]

something like this but it is heavily dependent on queue

[lament elm]

ye prob alr

[tight harbor]

or this

[vast matrix]

pc

[tight harbor]

and a lot more

omg

[grand topaz]

I like it, it's like antifate

[atomic echo]

you then proceed to get 2 I pieces in a row and gg

[loud hazel]

turn tetr.io into a fighting game with abilities

[tight harbor]

gg

[loud hazel]

imagine like abilities that throw s/z floods, make t droughts

reducing outcoming garbage and increasing incoming damage

[grim otter]

imagine having the ability to swap boards with your opponent

[loud hazel]

and you have to manage them on top of playing the game

[grim otter]

[tight harbor]

wtf spam hd everywhere and then swap board

[grim otter]

gg ez

[vast matrix]

outskilled

[grim otter]

swap boards with cz

[loud hazel]

usable only once per match seems kinda fire

[vast matrix]

this is going off topic

lmfao

[atomic echo]

7+x bad because transition to midgame bad osk pls fix

back to topic

[honest oriole]

cz still wins because he's built diff

[grand topaz]

Just like in TETRINET

[fast briar]

so today is the day opener main getting destroyed?

[lament elm]

4widers and actual PC players are mostly unaffected

[fast briar]

I wonder if I queue

[lament elm]

4w does not kill as fast like SDPC loop

and actual pc players are... uh

where?

[quick sapphire]

Absolutely love the changes!!!!!!! Hope to see it added permanently to TL in the future. Spice the game up a bit!

[tight harbor]

4w is more annoying to counter

[lament elm]

annoying, but not 30spike dead

probably

[quick sapphire]

As I understand it a while back os k was talking about potentially doing seasons in the game to keep it fresh. This would be a really nice change.

[tight harbor]

I actually need to know if they are 4widing instead of just spamming LST after 4pps tki now

[fast briar]

its 1hr till midnight and I just knew this exist

omg

[mystic yoke]

this makes games too long

[fast briar]

half of me wanna try it and the other want to sleep/not queue

[tight harbor]

wanna play?

[fast briar]

yep seasonal mechanic

[fast briar]

sure

[onyx reef]

true this would be hella fun

although would tournament play still be 7-bag normal modern i wonder

[quick sapphire]

Depends on tournament hosts.

[mystic yoke]

if it were a minor tourney then cool

[grand topaz]

imagine 7+1 bombs tournament lol

[grim otter]

I believe tourney results wouldn't really be that affected by 7+3

those players are good regardless of what happens

they aren't opener mains or one trick ponies

[primal gale]

heavy nerf to anber

[grand topaz]

X will adjust

[brisk badger]

[onyx reef]

depends

westl is no longer quite as absurd to beat as before

[quick sapphire]

I'm really sad I'm only gonna get like 40 minutes after work before it ends.

[onyx reef]

ffs

when does it end?

[quick sapphire]

6 hours

[onyx reef]

ill be home then yippie

[quick sapphire]

I finish at 22:00 ( 5 hours. )

[onyx reef]

it stops at

hmm

18:00 for me

[grand topaz]

Midnight in Europe.

5 hours 30 minutes

[quick sapphire]

23:00 here in UK.

[onyx reef]

ud be surprised

no one can build b2b in the start so no ones killing me in the start either anymore

[hushed oxide]

wtf new gassho

with the tsd 4l pc chance

[vast matrix]

yeah ngl that one's kinda fire

[brisk badger]

nah...

[loud hazel]

only the opener attacks

[onyx reef]

yes but the game starts with cheese so instead of a clean seesaw you have a cheese seesaw

[loud hazel]

yeah

[onyx reef]

meaning the game will take longer because that promotes more cheese as you downstack

[magic viper]

the 7+X bag is intresting, but changing the TL mechanics may lead to massive TR loss for some people that is the part i dont approve about it- react a check mark if you think this too

[mystic yoke]

this isnt true

[pseudo heron]

cheese slows down the game

[onyx reef]

with less garbage?

[pseudo heron]

openers are good for creating momentum

[onyx reef]

you cant send 4’s you can only send cheese lol

in less garbage multiplier

[mystic yoke]

wtf?

oh reducing atk

[onyx reef]

with 7+X its just less certain for a cheese seesaw to be created

with openers it was annoying because you always started with a clean seesaw

[fast briar]

I thought this bag was horrible, seems like its skill issue

[onyx reef]

7+X sometimes u get a cheese seesaw and sometimes u get a clean seesaw

[tight harbor]

[tight harbor]

very big stmb cave

[fast briar]

lol

[hushed oxide]

[lament elm]

Woaw floaties

[mystic yoke]

this sounds exactly correct tho?

[lament elm]

I love

[mystic yoke]

games shouldn't be consistent

[tight harbor]

I blame you

[lament elm]

wtf

[mystic yoke]

some skilled players will be able to sprint and get clean correctly

[tight harbor]

you made my vision become like that

[mystic yoke]

openers shouldnt be guaranteed effects

[tight harbor]

[mystic yoke]

ye

[brisk badger]

sounds like midgame

[onyx reef]

true

small issue cheese seesaw is boring

unless you like the cheese race mode

which is not a majority

[mystic yoke]

that's the individual skill player issu

they should be able to sprint

[onyx reef]

boring not hard lol

[pseudo heron]

if you're sprinting, you're having to go a lot faster

[mystic yoke]

but you're saying some cheese is a given

which it isnt

[mystic yoke]

i dont see a big problem with this

[pseudo heron]

neither do I

[tight harbor]

1pps speedcap in first 5 bags when

pls make fancy stuffs

[onyx reef]

lmao

[tight harbor]

instead of bursting to get out

[brisk badger]

turnbased beginning 💀

[onyx reef]

true instead i can force 6-3 every bag

which is equally as boring

[grim otter]

Maybe speedcap TL

[brisk badger]

don't think it changes opener tomfoolery

[grim otter]

1.5pps TL when

[pseudo heron]

that would anger a lot of top players

not just top players... maybe somewhere in the S ranks is when people would get upset at a 1.5 PPS cap

[onyx reef]

go play zone battle or ppt if you want a speedcap lol

[terse jacinth]

if anything speed cap gonna have ppl starting to lab opener into timing and garbage location territory

[grim otter]

Kazu instantly top tetrio player

[onyx reef]

this game was never meant to be speed capped

[mental storm]

add 30f ARE to all modes

[tight harbor]

wtf 1.5pps in S

[pseudo heron]

somewhere in the S ranks

[mental storm]

probably s+

[grim otter]

probably SS

[mental storm]

1.5 in ss is slow but not rare

[pseudo heron]

I was definitely around 1.9 PPS at S+

[grim otter]

wtf

[pseudo heron]

main gameplay was striding

[mystic yoke]

it's not quite every bag still

[grim otter]

I was 1pps in S+

lol

[onyx reef]

no literally

in a sszzoo bag you can still force 6-3 lol

[brisk badger]

honestly I just freestyle or try building boxes/pco cause it's p adaptable

[mental storm]

i cant saay anything about the single s ranks because i was there before percentile adjust

[pseudo heron]

but a speed cap would only benefit openers (you can't just outpace them), and it would seriously throw people's rhythm off

rhythm is a HUGE component of high-level Tetris

[grim otter]

my opener pps tho

is comparable to the fast striders of my rank

kekw

[brisk badger]

mfw muscle memory is fast

[onyx reef]

rea

real

if this became implemented i wouldnt be surprised to see a shit more sub-20 players

[tight harbor]

getting my pps from 1 to 1.5 got me to U

[mental storm]

enforced handling > straight up ARE or speed hardcap imo, but at that point ur kinda just playing official tetris rules

[grim otter]

wtf

are you ZZZTOJ minus or something

[tight harbor]

nah ZZZTOJ still beats me with 1pps

burst on

[pseudo heron]

even in official Tetris games, the effective speed cap is waaaaaaaaaaay above 1.5 PPS

[onyx reef]

its like 3

[tight harbor]

I win against 1pps burst off tho

[mental storm]

yea you can play >2 pps if cracked right?

[onyx reef]

in te:c lol

[pseudo heron]

probably possible to go 3-4 PPS

[onyx reef]

not possible

proven

lol

[grim otter]

with perfect finesse te:c is capped at 3?

[onyx reef]

aki exists

[onyx reef]

faster

[grim otter]

how fast

how fast was aki

[onyx reef]

opener aki is like 200 dpm right

[grim otter]

wait what about his

overall

[onyx reef]

180ish

bursts 200

[pseudo heron]

but still, the speed cap comes from various timings rather than a hard "you're not allowed to go faster" limit

[grim otter]

around 3

[onyx reef]

but hes oppressively good because his speed is so hard to achieve

[grim otter]

I wonder

with perfect finesse and aka like efficiency

how fast can tetrio players theoretically be in the overall game

[onyx reef]

infinite lol

[grim otter]

what

[onyx reef]

theres no hardcap

[tight harbor]

69420 pps

[grim otter]

ok humanly possible

how about that

[onyx reef]

10 pps probably

[terse jacinth]

human benchmark 🤔

[grim otter]

10pps with efficient gameplay?

wow

[onyx reef]

i dont think the muscles could keep up after that

[grim otter]

that guy would literally be unkillable

ngl

[onyx reef]

i mean we’vr already got sprinters at like 8 pps

[grim otter]

he just cancels everything

[onyx reef]

and then we’ve got westl

lol

[tight harbor]

vonce 8pps burst

[grim otter]

westl has one of the best finesse in vs I heard?

[onyx reef]

no

westl has the highest kps

[grim otter]

oh

wait how is he that fast then

[red blaze]

Nvm I read that wrong

[tight harbor]

simply clicking faster

[onyx reef]

5.5 pps midgame in tournament

[grim otter]

lol

[onyx reef]

keys per second

[tough wagon]

westl finesse is crazy good

[tight harbor]

westl and rtxile just have scary kps

[tough wagon]

his kpp is high not because of bad finesse

[tight harbor]

[grim otter]

which player has the best versus finesse so far then

[mystic yoke]

he holds every piece

[onyx reef]

westl finesse is good but not perfect like most top players loo

[grim otter]

in tetrio

not te:c

[tight harbor]

what's westl versus kpp?

[onyx reef]

idk probably cz when he doesnt triple rotate

[tough wagon]

he is one of the best especially with the weird ass spins

if not the best

[grim otter]

oooh

[grim otter]

cz has insane burst I heard

like one of the fastest

[onyx reef]

yeah because he can play fast but he chooses not to

[tight harbor]

cz has sub 3kpp in sprint even with triple rotation right?

[onyx reef]

yeah

[tight harbor]

[grim otter]

he uses his speed wisely I guess

[onyx reef]

the only times we’ve really seen cz pushed to speed up alot is against diao

[mental storm]

is it possible to learn this power

[tough wagon]

most cannot do these kinda spins as fast as westl

[onyx reef]

true

[tough wagon]

except maybe vince

[onyx reef]

westl’s only problem is skim hell

[grim otter]

westl potential best player in the future?

[tough wagon]

2.6

[onyx reef]

and like negative timing

[buoyant drum]

(almost 5K messages!)

[onyx reef]

maybe

[tight harbor]

[mystic yoke]

and ds

[grim otter]

speed is the hard limit afterall

[onyx reef]

his speed is his defining point but his consistency and downstack leaves alot to be desired

[mystic yoke]

diao is about as fast

[grim otter]

if he manages those without losing speed

[onyx reef]

in ideal positions he’s the strongest but when faced with not good boardstates he struggles way too much

[grim otter]

he might be unstoppable

he went from SS to where he currently is in like 1 year tho

[onyx reef]

nah cz is like his hard counter matchup

[grim otter]

meanwhile most top players have like 10 years of playing

[onyx reef]

clean spam vs downstack all the clean + 6000 lines

[grim otter]

if westl plays for another 5-10 years

[lament elm]

Diao the more rounded players and still struggling with CZ

[grim otter]

imagine how he would be like

[lament elm]

even with all the intentional cheesing

[tight harbor]

how to beat cz

[onyx reef]

well hed probably stagnate lol

[tough wagon]

probably not the channel to talk about this

[tight harbor]

dc cannon harder

[grim otter]

I mean, even the best players are still improving right

[onyx reef]

slowly

and for some they arent

[lament elm]

anyway, i want to see CZ managing this gamemode opener phase

[grim otter]

I know diao,cz and blaarg are improving

[grim otter]

cz doesn't seem to support this game mode

[lament elm]

GG

No volatile opener phase

[grim otter]

he truly believes that being unable to survive opener is a skill issue

well he is cz so

[lament elm]

slightly awkward transition

[lament elm]

yay

based opinion though

[grim otter]

most of us aren't cz

so not necessarily applicable

[lament elm]

you can't just delete a challenge and calls that fixed problem.

[tired flame]

CZ makes survival mode easy. surviving opener is like 1-2 notches below that, actually nvm i forget how fast garbage is generated vs pps of other players

[grim otter]

like if it takes a player to reach like top 200 level to actually invalidate opener wins ( which isn't always true, I have seen em struggle before), what about the other 99.8% player base? Where it is far easier to learn and abuse openers compared to developing the capabilities to survive it

[lament elm]

No personal hate, but I must say the implementation of 7+X is a bit hacky this time, as with the reasoning behind just straight-up deleting opener mains (temporarily).

[mental storm]

i feel like as a hard plonker + antistrider my opponent being clueless for 5 bags hurts me just as much as myself being clueless for 5 bags

since i kind of want to get opener mained on

[lament elm]

same

[mystic yoke]

you just rely on opener too

you arent above opener mains

[tired flame]

I do think only doing this test for 1 day is kinda pointless?

[mental storm]

yea but i rely on my opponent's opener

[tired flame]

I need meta to take form damn it

[mental storm]

so even worse

[tired flame]

before making an firm opinion

[grim otter]

I was actually winning a lot more in 7+X

[grand topaz]

i do wish it was more than 1 day, for example forever

[grim otter]

take what you will of that

[tired flame]

Like currently peopel are doing whatever, but if there's gonna be a meta strat like how there are meta openers

i rather want to know how i feel on the latter

[tight harbor]

I mean it is a skill issue

[tight harbor]

[lament elm]

I'm just not seeing the high of surviving a few lines of cheese and even lesser amounts of clean compared to exchanging 20 and 20 to others

[grim otter]

and also, even if player A is an opener main, him voicing a negative opinion on opener meta is still a voice of concern, if not even more concerning than otherwise

[tight harbor]

should be at least a week

imo

[mental storm]

counterspike ping pong rounds are the most fun to me by far but now they rare as fuck so like what

[grand topaz]

what challenge

[mystic yoke]

because that isnt in the player's hands

[onyx reef]

fariness vs fun

even though

it is fair

[tight harbor]

it is only fun for like a few sets

[onyx reef]

because you were never barred from learning in the first place

[grim otter]

if it is an issue for 99.8% of the playes and makes the game unfun for a majority of the players, then you can't just call it a "skill issue" and leave it at there though. Keep in mind this game isn't made just for X ranks or even just the top 10% players

[tight harbor]

speedcap on first 5 bags so ppl actually make fancy stuffs instead of just sprinting away

[lament elm]

perhaps so, perhaps so

but i still think there must be other compromises

[mystic yoke]

same for learning freestyle

"learning" isnt a point difference

[onyx reef]

the point was made because opener is considered a cheat way

[mystic yoke]

oh I dont think of it like that

[onyx reef]

learning to freestyle already exists and is part of the game

[tight harbor]

ppl complaining about something that isn't hard to counter and something that they could just learn

[tired flame]

Though would a new player prefer opener garbage or 4w garbage though?

[onyx reef]

in both bag systems you still need to freestyle lol

[mental storm]

rising cheese until first non-b2b clear, goofy or cooking?