are objects' methods on the heap, or are they allocated in a special kind of memory? | Java Community | Help. Code. Learn. | Page 1

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:01 AM

#

I wanna be sure if methods are on the heap or not. Also, I wanna be sure if an object's data is always going to be the variables

short glenBOT May 17, 2023, 1:01 AM

#

⌛ This post has been reserved for your question.

Hey @flat cypress! Please use /close or the Close Post button above when you're finished. Please remember to follow the help guidelines. This post will be automatically closed after 300 minutes of inactivity.

TIP: Narrow down your issue to simple and precise questions to maximize the chance that others will reply in here.

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:05 AM

#

for the second question; where else would they be?

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:11 AM

#

trail nimbus for the second question; where else would they be?

oh i just wanna to be sure if i was using the term correctly

#

at first i thought the object's data was the whole class it was based on

#

including the methods

#

but methods are allocated differently, right?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:12 AM

#

yeah

#

"object's data" is something that each object has, but all objects of the same type share the same class things
everything in the class is shared between objects. the things that are unique to the objects are the values that the instance variables/fields/attributes/properties hold

#

constructors, methods, init blocks, all the static things, are shared

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:14 AM

#

i see

#

there is a name to the kind of memory methods use, right?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:14 AM

#

the variable declarations are shared, that part is in/of the class
but the variable values are not shared, that's what the data is

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:14 AM

#

flat cypress there is a name to the kind of memory methods use, right?

probably. i don't know, sorry.

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:15 AM

#

phew that's a relief

#

i thought methods were part of the objects data lol

#

but it's stated that an object is on the heap so...

#

it wouldn't make any sense

#

unless it's possible for memory to contain other memory allocations

#

then that'd be... weird

#

dynamic memory holding stack memory

#

hm

#

i wonder if that's... possible

#

for an object

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:20 AM

#

values are nouns, methods are verbs
suppose you have a bank account
the data would be "owner", "value", "cards", "loans", that sort of thing right?
"withdraw", "deposit", "transfer" aren't data of the account

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:22 AM

#

oh now you're speaking my language

#

syntax tree

#

the only problem being the GODDAMN SEMANTICS AND PRAGMATICS

#

don't even get me started on phonology

#

thanks for the help

short glenBOT May 17, 2023, 1:24 AM

#

flat cypress thanks for the help

If you are finished with your post, please close it.
If you are not, please ignore this message.
Note that you will not be able to send further messages here after this post have been closed but you will be able to create new posts.

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:24 AM

#

now i am sure that object's data refers to the variables themselves

#

and... fields too?

#

and whatever the constructor is up too

#

if it's using super() to do some shenanigans

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:29 AM

#

flat cypress and... fields too?

same thing

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:29 AM

#

flat cypress and whatever the constructor is up too

nope

#

the actual data is the stuff inside the variables

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:31 AM

#

i see

#

the constructor would be more of an instruction, right?

#

since it's always called when an object is instantiated

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:32 AM

#

yes

#

"instance variable", "field", "attribute", and "property" all refer to the same thing in java
some might be different things in different languages but to java they're the same thing

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:34 AM

#

cool

#

the term attributes are never used

#

you use instance variables instead, right?

#

hmm now i see the use of fields and instance variables

#

fields are dynamic within the object

#

but instance variables can be dynamically assigned values througout the program

#

so that'd be a way for you too...

#

oh

#

interesting

#

semantics!

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:37 AM

#

flat cypress you use instance variables instead, right?

like i said, they all refer to the same thing in java

#

they're all interchangeable within the context of java

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:37 AM

#

i see

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:37 AM

#

they have some different connotations

#

but ultimately they're the same thing

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:37 AM

#

just like the terms instance and object

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:37 AM

#

yeah

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:38 AM

#

i need to learn the purpose of them now

#

is it a bad idea to learn the semantics of it with minecraft modding?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:38 AM

#

"field" has a focus on it being a class member
"instance variable" has a focus on it being the variable
etc

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:38 AM

#

flat cypress is it a bad idea to learn the semantics of it with minecraft modding?

not at all, no

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:38 AM

#

trail nimbus "field" has a focus on it being a class member "instance variable" has a focus o...

gonna save this

#

nice

#

i still need to learn the purpose of stack memory in making mods

#

like you said it's just like verbs

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:39 AM

#

what

#

that was about methods

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:39 AM

#

yeah

#

methods return stack memory, no?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:39 AM

#

no

#

methods utilize stack memory for making local variables

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:40 AM

#

oh i see

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:40 AM

#

method calls exist on the callstack

#

i have no idea what "methods return stack memory" means to you, that doesn't make sense

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:40 AM

#

in my head it sounds just like temporary memory

#

so the returned value of a method is not on stack

#

that open more possibilities

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:41 AM

#

if this is for making minecraft mods, these internals aren't significant to you

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:41 AM

#

internals?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:41 AM

#

you aren't going to be managing memory manually in java

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:42 AM

#

trail nimbus you aren't going to be managing memory manually in java

that's one of the selling points of java

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:42 AM

#

oh, it's because i have this itch on me that makes me wanna learn about everything in the minimum details

#

i am wanna be aware of what's happening

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:42 AM

#

learn about how to use the language first, rather than how the language works internally

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:42 AM

#

i see

#

so the data that a method returns is not stack memory exactly?

#

you said callstack, but you were referring to the variables of the method?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:43 AM

#

flat cypress i am wanna be aware of what's happening

sure, knowing everything about the language would be nice, but knowing internals without what they're for isn't going to be useful

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

flat cypress so the data that a method returns is not stack memory exactly?

it doesn't return memory

#

it returns values

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

ah gotcha

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

trail nimbus it returns values

oh now i see why someone said it was stack memory

#

interesting

#

that's cool

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

it uses stack memory, it doesn't return it or anything like that

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:45 AM

#

it's up to me to do whatever i want with the returned data

#

this makes a lot of sense

#

when you wanna use methods from a class, you need to refer to the object of that class to actually use them methods?

#

gosh now i am thinking it was a bad idea to start on python

#

i am gonna take a shower

#

in case i don't answer what you will type in a few minutes here

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:50 AM

#

flat cypress when you wanna use methods from a class, you need to refer to the object of that...

yes

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:50 AM

#

noice

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:50 AM

#

python's OOP is cursed, don't try to use it to equate to proper OOP languages lol

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:51 AM

#

i think my mind has been corrupted by python

#

not sure if python has a venom

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:51 AM

#

trail nimbus python's OOP is cursed, don't try to use it to equate to proper OOP languages lo...

i really should have started on java

#

the fact that it was stated Everything in python is an object

#

this single statement corrupted my mind

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:52 AM

#

in java every reference type-value is an object

#

well except null

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:52 AM

#

gonna keep in mind that object = data structure on the heap

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:52 AM

#

don't equate them

#

objects are stored on the heap

#

there's not really a proper reverse relation

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:53 AM

#

i see

#

are you gonna stay up for more hours?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:53 AM

#

it's 9am for me so yeha

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:53 AM

#

i think i will be here playing with java for more hours

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:53 AM

#

well... hopefully

#

no guarantees

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:53 AM

#

no problem

#

i need to see the methods thing you told me about

#

since it just returns values

#

does that mean it's up to me to do whatever i want with these values?

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

yes

#

that's kinda how programming works

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

perhaps even assigning that value to an instance variable

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

that's how functions work in any language

#

sure

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

nice

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

that's up to the caller

#

the method doesn't care

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

gonna take a look at that, object type methods and... fields

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

it gives the value and ceases to exist

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

it's just there to list statements innit

#

i think that's what you call it

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

and give a return value

#

and manage exception handling

#

but yes grouping statements is the primary objective of functions

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:55 AM

#

object type methods expect an object as a returned value, right?

#

actually, a reference to that object

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

yes

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

oh wow, i can even have instance variables be a reference to an object

#

that's cool

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

the reference exists on the stack, pointing to an object on the heap

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

oh shit i need to keep that in mind

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

null is an all-zeros reference, similarly to how all the primitives have a 0-equivalent default value

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

Methods need to be called, they can't call themselves, dumbass

#

gonna put this on my monitor

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:57 AM

#

lmao

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:57 AM

#

freaking python again

#

having functions and methods for some reason

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:57 AM

#

methods are just functions in objects/classes

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:57 AM

#

yeah

#

the fact that i can create a function without being in a class in python corrupted my mind too

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:58 AM

#

java does have Function to simulate functions as first-class objects btw

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:58 AM

#

i hope i will never have to use it

#

because i will 100% forget about it

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 1:58 AM

#

it's part of the functions api, it's really extensive and really useful actually

#

you'll get there

short glenBOT May 17, 2023, 1:58 AM

#

https://dev.java/learn

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 1:59 AM

#

alright, i will go take a shower and read some minecraft mods

#

simple mods that don't do much

#

like hmm ironchest perhaps

#

knowing what's done with methods data and instance variables is my primary focus now

#

thanks to your help, it's not a fog environment

short glenBOT May 17, 2023, 2:00 AM

#

flat cypress thanks to your help, it's not a fog environment

If you are finished with your post, please close it.
If you are not, please ignore this message.
Note that you will not be able to send further messages here after this post have been closed but you will be able to create new posts.

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 2:00 AM

#

if you get into minecraft mods right away, that'll involve integration as well

#

you may want to consider looking at more basic stuff just using built-ins if you want to focus on java first

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 2:00 AM

#

hmm idk i think i will hop to modding

#

i always wanted to make mods since 2012

#

good old times

#

couldn't even install mods properly

trail nimbus May 17, 2023, 2:01 AM

#

walk before you run shrugging

flat cypress May 17, 2023, 2:01 AM

#

more like crawl before i walk

#

well i will go take a shower

#

thanks the for the help, again

short glenBOT May 17, 2023, 7:10 AM

#

💤 Post marked as dormant

This post has been inactive for over 300 minutes, thus, it has been archived.
If your question was not answered yet, feel free to re-open this post or create a new one.

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 10:35 PM

#

@trail nimbus yo just to confirm again, object = object variables, right?

#

i hope my memory hasn't gone foggy

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 10:55 PM

#

just the term object itself

#

i even had a dream about it

#

weird

trail nimbus May 18, 2023, 10:57 PM

#

"object variable" isn't a thing

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:14 PM

#

I think they mean variables, but type object, not primitive

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:25 PM

#

waxen jewel I think they mean variables, but type object, not primitive

yeap

#

i wanna be sure if my memory isn't failing me

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

An object is a new instance of a class hence the new keyword. Having an variable type object, doesn't make it an object .It just makes it a null variable

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

oh i mean, when you use the term object

#

it refers to the instance variables, right?

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

Yes, if I understand correctly

#

This is an object new ObjectClassType()

#

Did I answer?

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

i guess so

#

my memory is off lately

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

Your not the only one 😂

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

i am not taking my adhd meds

#

problem is that my vitamin D levels are getting normalized

#

it makes me more energetic

#

makes adhd worse too

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

flat cypress i am not taking my adhd meds

I feel you. I have ADHD and have to take meds, I don't want to, but have to do it

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

flat cypress it makes me more energetic

Talk to doctor?

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

i mean vitamin d

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

Or whatever those people are called that deal with meds

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

i am deficient on it

#

it's a combo

#

i am eating more

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

Ahh ok

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

sleeping well

#

the more energy i have the worse it is

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

Idk man. Can't help you much there

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

instead of my brain being at 1000 miles per hour it's 10000 miles per hour

#

it sucks

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

Yea

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

do you mess with minecraft modding?

#

by any chance

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

I once tried to make a Rainbow 7 Seige mod, but quickly gave up because I didn't feel like it

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

i see

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

So no

#

Only plugin dev

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

oh now i get what you meant by object

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

XD

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

i need to see the constructor's shenanigans

#

appears every time in minecraft modding

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

Well, it is OOP for a reason

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

always setting up variables

#

using super(0

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

I love the super keyword. The super keyword and abstract classes are my fav. Really random, but oh well

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

ah these and methods that i need to take care of

#

only because of this post that i realised that object's data is only instance variables

#

not methods

#

god damn you python!

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

XD

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

minecraft mods are weird

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

Python corrupted me lmao

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

me too

#

Everything is an object

#

this single line

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:34 PM

#

I should have went straight to the AP class instead of taking the intro (intro is requirement, but teacher said I could go to AP)

#

AP teaches Java.

#

But I have to go

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:34 PM

#

darn in my software engineering course, they make us use a coding language that uses OUR language to type keywords

#

imagine the confusion

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:35 PM

#

F

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:35 PM

#

i just used chat gpt and procedded to study python

#

damn it's so cool i can understand this

#

methods are my next objective

#

where the hell are they called

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

I should go, but is that Static ABUSE??????

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

probably

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-falls-oh-brother-gif-12712639

Tenor

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

the mod's author have a separated class for each iron chest material

#

i think it's because it's using fabric api

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

Ahh ok

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

no forge shenanigans

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

Now I REALLY have to goo

flat cypress May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

you have a good one

waxen jewel May 18, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

You too

trail nimbus May 18, 2023, 11:59 PM

#

waxen jewel I think they mean variables, but type object, not primitive

those are reference types

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:00 AM

#

flat cypress it refers to the instance variables, right?

no

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:00 AM

#

i think i was talking about object's data rather than what an object is itself

#

gosh did i forget everything you told me

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:01 AM

#

that would be the values held within the instance variables

#

but an "object" in concept is much more than its data

#

it's the data, the type, the methods, any other members

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:02 AM

#

oh so it includes everything the class states

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:02 AM

#

all the instance stuff, yeah

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:02 AM

#

thanks

short glenBOT May 19, 2023, 12:02 AM

#

flat cypress thanks

If you are finished with your post, please close it.
If you are not, please ignore this message.
Note that you will not be able to send further messages here after this post have been closed but you will be able to create new posts.

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:02 AM

#

idk what happened to my memory

#

feels like i was missing something

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:04 AM

#

amnesia moment

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:04 AM

#

trail nimbus amnesia moment

yeah, i had an itch as if something about what i learned was wrong

#

at least what i thought

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:05 AM

#

relatable tbh

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:05 AM

#

ah damn skeptcism

#

this was a good kind of skepticism

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:05 AM

#

always a pain to go figure out what exactly you're forgetting yeah

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:06 AM

#

trail nimbus always a pain to go figure out *what exactly* you're forgetting yeah

i even had a dream about it

#

it was about object's data vs object

trail nimbus May 19, 2023, 12:06 AM

#

fubuki_ohno

#

tetris effect

flat cypress May 19, 2023, 12:07 AM

#

yeah i knew i had forgotten to ask something else but similar

#

there it is

#

@trail nimbus actually it's not memory

#

it could be my memory getting better

#

looks like vitamin d deficiency affects the brain more than i imagined

#

i am surprised this was not a torturing skepticism process

short glenBOT May 19, 2023, 5:20 AM

#

💤 Post marked as dormant

This post has been inactive for over 300 minutes, thus, it has been archived.
If your question was not answered yet, feel free to re-open this post or create a new one.

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 8:52 PM

#

@trail nimbus yo chris remember that thing about using classes as parameters?

#

am i referring to the object of that class or a reference to that object?

#

because if it's the object directly

#

it will make a lot of sense with what i am messing with here

#

managed to make my creative tab on minecraft

#

now i need to mess up with classes

#

oh by the way are parameters positional?

trail nimbus May 23, 2023, 11:02 PM

#

flat cypress <@628241756235890708> yo chris remember that thing about using classes as parame...

....generics...?

#

if not, then no

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:02 PM

#

nvm i think i got it

#

i just need to be sure of one little thing

#

since the parameter refers to an object that is on runtime

#

what if there are multiple instances of that object

trail nimbus May 23, 2023, 11:03 PM

#

that's not really a thing

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:03 PM

#

which one will the parameter refer to

trail nimbus May 23, 2023, 11:03 PM

#

instance ≈ object, "multiple instance of object" just doesn't make sense

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:03 PM

#

oh forgive me on that one

#

what i meant is what if there are multiple instances of a class during runtime

trail nimbus May 23, 2023, 11:04 PM

#

im going to have to come back to this, not too free rn

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:04 PM

#

unless this one is special

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:04 PM

#

trail nimbus im going to have to come back to this, not too free rn

np

#

i will be here doing some tests

trail nimbus May 23, 2023, 11:04 PM

#

flat cypress what i meant is what if there are multiple instances of a class during runtime

doesn't matter, the instance that was passed is the instance that will be used

#

the method doesn't see all instances

flat cypress May 23, 2023, 11:05 PM

#

hmm this must be some minecraft shenanigans

#

or the api

#

no instances are created in classes

#

just plain parameters

#

oh i think i got it

#

makes sense

#

when you come back i will tell ya

short glenBOT May 24, 2023, 4:20 AM

#

💤 Post marked as dormant

This post has been inactive for over 300 minutes, thus, it has been archived.
If your question was not answered yet, feel free to re-open this post or create a new one.

knotty totem May 24, 2023, 10:31 AM

#

I may be late to the party but in case it hasn't been sorted out as far as I'm aware any object is stored on the heap including all its methods and variables and when you make a method call that instantiates an object you put a pointer in the stack and the object is still in the heap. (Local method primitives are put directly in the stack when the method is called though)

ionic yew May 24, 2023, 11:28 AM

#

Objects don't contain methods. Classes do.
And while current day JVMs may indeed store classes and with them methods in the heap, the promise of Java is that where classes and methods are is none of the programmer's business. It is where the JVM finds it best to put it in.

feral ether May 24, 2023, 12:12 PM

#

If you want to understand heap/stack things better, I'd just write some mildly complex C/C++ code, and look at the assembly output. You'll naturally start figuring out when things are in the Stack/Heap.

short glenBOT May 24, 2023, 5:20 PM

#

💤 Post marked as dormant

This post has been inactive for over 300 minutes, thus, it has been archived.
If your question was not answered yet, feel free to re-open this post or create a new one.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:07 PM

#

ionic yew Objects don't contain methods. Classes do. And while current day JVMs may indeed...

hmm that's weird, i read somewhere that objects do contain methods but they are related to the virtual machine

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:07 PM

#

feral ether If you want to understand heap/stack things better, I'd just write some mildly c...

i got my eyes on these 2

#

i am loving java

#

and hating python

#

in my head it doesn't make sense for methods to be contained by classes since static methods exist

feral ether May 26, 2023, 6:09 PM

#

Static methods just means you don't need an instance to call it. That's about it.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:09 PM

#

yeah

#

i need to see more about methods

#

they are a bit weird

#

it's all about the virtual machine

#

but i think objects still contain them in some way

feral ether May 26, 2023, 6:10 PM

#

As a reflective object

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:10 PM

#

gotta do some research

#

@feral ether are you sure methods belong to classes rather than objects? even if you need to refer to an object when calling its method?

#

let's go vyvanse is starting to kick in

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:16 PM

#

methods belong to classes yes, that's where they're declared

#

you call the method via the object, but the method itself isn't on the object

#

otherwise you'd need another copy of the method for every object you create, and that'd get quite expensive

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:19 PM

#

hmm i need to take a look at java docs to see what they say about it

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:21 PM

#

this wouldn't be in javadocs

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:21 PM

#

it's on oracle innit?

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:21 PM

#

if anything it'd be in the spec but this is more of just general OOP structure/concepts

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:21 PM

#

flat cypress it's on oracle innit?

java docs describe the api (libraries), not the language

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:22 PM

#

i see

#

it's because i found this https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/concepts/object.html

What Is an Object? (The Java™ Tutorials > Learn...

This beginner Java tutorial describes fundamentals of programming in the Java programming language

#

suspicious

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:22 PM

#

ah those aren't docs, those are tutorials

#

they're just on the same subdomain as the actual docs but under a different slug

#

it's confusing but eh it works

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:23 PM

#

oh so docs means something else

#

my bad

#

i thought it was something regarding to info

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:23 PM

#

docs is short for documentation, it specifically refers to formal descriptions of interfaces

#

tutorials have a similar purpose but they're more human and less formal

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:24 PM

#

i see

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:24 PM

#

documentation is (or, well, should be) complete, while tutorials might omit stuff for brevity

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:24 PM

#

this + other researches i made still make me think that objects still contain methods but they are a bit special

#

relating to the virtual machine

#

i know it's aboslutely weird for me to get into these little details

#

it's a curse i have to face

#

it happens for literally anything i learn

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:25 PM

#

i think there's an issue with ambiguous language here, like what does it mean for something to "contain" a method here

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:25 PM

#

yeah indeed

#

i even searched more about volatile and non-volatile memory

#

due to this

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:26 PM

#

the actual definition and implementation of the method belong to the class, and an instance of that class can access those methods directly

#

but nothing of the method itself is stored on the object directly

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:27 PM

#

i see

#

and would that relate to the virtual machine?

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:27 PM

#

no clue sorry

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:27 PM

#

hmm i wanna explore this

#

gosh i am feeling so well

#

vyvanse gives me powers

trail nimbus May 26, 2023, 6:28 PM

#

it generally doesn't matter for actual use and i tend to explore within the language rather than its underbelly so ive got no clue about this lol

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:28 PM

#

because if objects somewhat contains methods it means that there would be a special allocation in ram that would relate to the java virtual machine since methods are converted into bytecode so they can operate their functions

#

my guts and skepticism attack again

#

i need to explore more of classes as well

feral ether May 26, 2023, 6:31 PM

#

flat cypress because if objects somewhat contains methods it means that there would be a spec...

I wouldn't worry about that so much. I'd assume that class methods are actually static functions in memory, and simply have an additional parameter appended that add a reference to the original Class.

The only issue you'd get is copying that class into new Threads so that multiple Threads can run the same function at the same time.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:31 PM

#

feral ether I wouldn't worry about that so much. I'd assume that class methods are actually ...

oh boy, this will be tough to forget

#

wish me luck

#

this will make me study computer engineering and physics as well

#

@feral ether do you mess with minecraft coding, if i may ask?

#

i am doing some stuff with fabric api

#

loving it so far

#

i just need a better comprehension of methods

#

i even made some rules myself

feral ether May 26, 2023, 6:36 PM

#

flat cypress <@190262684082503680> do you mess with minecraft coding, if i may ask?

Nope. I do Web Development with Springboot.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:36 PM

#

that's cool

#

and on my list

#

in the future we will talk a lot about this

#

dude this is so weird

feral ether May 26, 2023, 6:37 PM

#

Just read Baeldung and Spring Docs. They're fantastic for learning, and your goal should be to get to the point to answer questions, not ask them.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 6:37 PM

#

i have no thoughts in my head

#

this is so uncommon

#

adhd breaks my legs so much

#

sorry i am just so glad i get to be relaxed at least once

#

so happy i need to share it

heady summit May 26, 2023, 8:07 PM

#

flat cypress i have no thoughts in my head

Hope you and That_Guy977... keep this conversation going. I have been following it from the beginning and have found the back n forth between you two very interesting not to mention how your genuine curiosity comes out in your questions. I find them very helpful as someone very new to Java.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 8:25 PM

#

heady summit Hope you and That_Guy977... keep this conversation going. I have been following...

oh yeah, that's nice to read

#

thanks mate

short glenBOT May 26, 2023, 8:25 PM

#

flat cypress thanks mate

If you are finished with your post, please close it.
If you are not, please ignore this message.
Note that you will not be able to send further messages here after this post have been closed but you will be able to create new posts.

flat cypress May 26, 2023, 8:25 PM

#

i always get bothered by these details

#

if i am learning a language i will explore phonology

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

@heady summit alright i have a theory

#

objects contain methods, but i don't mean containing data, rather, a way of indicating that these methods will be allocated in the virtual machine and then transformed into bytecode! this makes a lot of sense in my head, i am probably wrong, but it's interesting anyway

#

this would make a lot of sense of static methods

#

the point of static is so you don't load stuff every time innit?

#

this might be it

#

i mean i have seen lots of codes using static as a bridge

#

which's interesting

#

the point of static methods would be so you wouldn't need to create an object just for that method, meaning that you would still need an object to use the method due to memory allocation, that's cool!

#

less objects less allocations

#

perhaps C++ and C will have more of this

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:46 AM

#

flat cypress objects contain methods, but i don't mean containing data, rather, a way of ind...

https://betterprogramming.pub/understanding-the-jvm-memory-model-heap-vs-non-heap-c14aa6fa703e This might help. Remember that we're dealing less with how Java behaves, and more with have the JVM is expected to behave.

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:46 AM

#

does every single coding language have a virtual machine?

#

a specific allocation just for methods

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:46 AM

#

No

#

The JVM could also be called the Java Runtime.

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:47 AM

#

oh i had the word at the tip of my tongue

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:47 AM

#

Interpreted Languages will have a Runtime (or VM) of some sort. Java is both interpreted (Java Bytecode) and compiled (Java -> Java Bytecode)

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:47 AM

#

C++ doesn't have delays

#

it goes straight up to the objective

#

yes interpreted and compiled

#

thanks

short glenBOT May 27, 2023, 12:47 AM

#

flat cypress thanks

If you are finished with your post, please close it.
If you are not, please ignore this message.
Note that you will not be able to send further messages here after this post have been closed but you will be able to create new posts.

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:48 AM

#

ah btw when i said that an object contains methods

#

did it sound like i was referring to methods as data?

#

the usage of contain in java

#

not sure if it relates to data

#

that'd be awkward

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:50 AM

#

Methods are meta-data on the class

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:50 AM

#

alright let me rephrase everything: classes are non-volatile since there is no allocation on RAM, objects are the allocation of the instructions stated in classes, methods are allocated in the virtual machine, converted into bytecode and then processed afterwards. So I see "Object" as memory allocation. Objects don't contain methods as data, rather, it's an indication that these methods will be allocated, unlike static methods. Static methods are used mostly when you want to use a method stated in a different class without having to instantiate that class first in order to make it get allocated. In the end, you'd be calling a method without the need of instantiating the origin class, optimizing the whole allocation process.

#

so proud i made this text

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:54 AM

#

flat cypress alright let me rephrase everything: classes are non-volatile since there is no a...

Read the article I posted, and the JEPs it links. That will help.

Anytime Java is run it is always bytecode. There is no converting to Bytecode in the JVM (Traditionally).

All Bytecode/Metadata is loaded into RAM once the Application begins. The JVM manages its own Heaps in that regard.

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 12:55 AM

#

alright, just wanted to post my text, it's from a thread

feral ether May 27, 2023, 12:55 AM

#

No worries

#

You're trying to think of Java as a C/C++ language with Stacks/Heaps, when in reality Java is just a Runtime. Think of how a runtime would behave, instead of a Native Application.

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 1:07 AM

#

feral ether You're trying to think of Java as a C/C++ language with Stacks/Heaps, when in re...

idk it's just my curiosity out of hand

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 1:51 AM

#

@feral ether i took a good read on the article, it's really interesting

#

correct me if i am wrong. in interpretated languages, such as python, the heap memory would be a bit different wouldn't it?

#

more limited

#

with python using a lot of garbage collector of unnused objects

feral ether May 27, 2023, 2:01 AM

#

flat cypress correct me if i am wrong. in interpretated languages, such as python, the heap m...

Heap Memory is just a term of a large chunk of semi-organized memory. Heaps can be different within languages.

#

Java is also Garbage Collected

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 2:03 AM

#

i am liking all of this

#

so many interesting things

flat cypress May 27, 2023, 2:46 AM

#

@feral ether oh NICE! the article confirmed an idea i had in mind

#

this is really cool

#

i wonder why people don't care much about memory allocation

hushed quest May 27, 2023, 6:01 AM

#

tldr:
all methods, field declarations, etc are shared across instances and only exist once in memory, but the values in the instance fields are individually stored for each instance. the nonstatic methods then get that instance, which they can use to do what they want to do. a class with a field “text” and a method “print” that prints out the text variable will only store the print method once in memory, but when you call the print method, that instance with the individual text value will be passed to it, and it will print it

trail nimbus May 27, 2023, 7:18 AM

#

feral ether Read the article I posted, and the JEPs it links. That will help. Anytime Java ...

question; with JIT, would it be like there's an extra layer between the code and the vm, where that layer is doing the compilation and feeding the bytecode to the vm?

trail nimbus May 27, 2023, 7:19 AM

#

flat cypress i wonder why people don't care much about memory allocation

it's a very specialized topic nowadays, it's not very important to general use of most languages because the language handles it and you just have to tell it to do things
it is still important for language design/architecture, or lower level things like assembly or embedded systems

#

if you aren't super into it, the conversation just kinda stops at "garbage collection" or "reference counting"

potent leaf May 27, 2023, 9:20 AM

#

for java, I believe unsafe is pretty much the only use-case of manual memory management I know of

short glenBOT May 27, 2023, 2:30 PM

#

💤 Post marked as dormant

This post has been inactive for over 300 minutes, thus, it has been archived.
If your question was not answered yet, feel free to re-open this post or create a new one.

feral ether May 27, 2023, 2:33 PM

#

trail nimbus question; with JIT, would it be like there's an extra layer between the code and...

From my understanding it's the inverse, the VM feeds the byte code into the JIT to compile it. It's weird because the JVM/JIT are pretty intertwined in the docs, so I'd have to read some source code to really get a grasp of it.

feral ether May 27, 2023, 2:35 PM

#

potent leaf for java, I believe ``unsafe`` is pretty much the only use-case of manual memory...

If you're talking about the Unsafe class, that really is not part of the Java Spec, and is more a hacky workaround that power users/frameworks can leverage. I don't even know if it is available in Java 17, and I think you have to use the security manager to get it in 11.

Manual Memory Management is mostly done through JNI/JNA, with the Foreign Function/Foreign Memory JEPs targeting future versions of Java.

#are objects' methods on the heap, or are they allocated in a special kind of memory?