NEC PC Engine / TGFX16

[crisp elk]

@true iris thanks for your opinion. I decided to order the Avenue 3 pad and experience it for myself. I like the design and that many games can benefit from the 3rd button with a switch. A regular PC Engine pad always seemed too small for my liking. Eventually I would like a 6-button pad but I want a 1st party controller for all my Reflex controller adapters

[thorny pelican]

An 8bitdo M30 serves as a worthy stand in for six button on the PCE core.

[crisp elk]

@thorny pelican yea I had one of those before. I just like having real controllers because along with the Reflex adapter, to me the experience feels closer to a real console

[thorny pelican]

Minus the Avenue 3 I just sold to @weak ivy, I have all the other PC Engine controllers. It's blasphemy to some, but I prefer the Avenue 6 over the Hori FC PC 😬

Just feels more... NEC-y

[crisp elk]

@thorny pelican Eventually I may want an Avenue Pad 6 but I can't justify that now since most of the 6-button games it supports are on arcade cores. I wish it had the button 3 selector switch like the Avenue 3 pad

[thorny pelican]

Gotta feed the MiSTer Owner Mandated Controller Bin®! 🤣

MOMCB® on the streets

[crisp elk]

I am definitely not opposed to having more than one controller for PCE or other consoles

[grand moss]

Hold on... ALL of them ?
http://pc-engine.co.uk/?section=controllers

I mean, even I don't have close to all of them

[thorny pelican]

No, not literally all of them.

Yeesh.

[grand moss]

It surprised me too. I thought I was doing a good job of collecting and documenting.... but apparently not.

I'm missing about half of those

[thorny pelican]

Imagine the size of MiSTer Owner Mandatory Controller Bin® you'd need for that 😅

[crisp elk]

Seriously considering this

[stiff lotus]

Yeah give it a shot, if it sucks return it.

[left merlin]

That and, if you're used to the dpad on original PCE/TG16 controllers, you may not like it. I've found very few controllers that give a close enough feel to the dpad on original controllers. YMMV

[hoary quail]

I've got the PC Engine Shuttle controller. Feels nice, though I couldn't say how it compares to others, or the more standard pads, as it's the only piece of PC Engine hardware I've seen at all IRL

[summer rivet]

Your SNAC input is making me sweat. Get an extension on there!

[hoary quail]

I have one now!! 😄 LOL. It was a test picture

(Queue picture of N64 SNAC hanging off the edge with 4 controllers plugged in)

[summer rivet]

Phew!

[stiff lotus]

Damn that’s a cool looking controller

[hoary quail]

I was surprised to see something of that era even look vaguely ergonomic 🤣

[crisp elk]

I considered that one. Looks really nice. I went with the Avenue 3 since I like the idea of a switchable 3rd action button. I considered the Avenue 6 pad but it doesn't support the run/select as a 3rd button and I don't play any games that support 6 buttons on PC Engine.

[hoary quail]

That's a nice looking one too. Lots of options. Perhaps same as you, I was glad to see not so many games uses 6 buttons, and just personally figured I wouldn't need them

[dark osprey]

IIRC it’s just a tiny handful of fighting games that I have about zero interest in playing on PCE anyway

[regal valley]

art of fighting
asuka 120% maxima burning fest
fatalfury 2
fatal fury special
flash hiders
kabuki klash
world heroes ii
ys 4 - dawn of ys```

found this on google

wonder what Y's 4 does wiht it - the rest are fighting games

the list is missing strip fighter II but that game is so broken it's not even funny to play as a joke

[left merlin]

I remember the NES Max controller had prongs before PS controllers did. Shame the dpad was a slider pad.

[regal valley]

another game that can benefit from a 6 button pad is Adventure Island

it allows you to cheat and level skip 😄

[crisp elk]

I love this Avenue Pad 3. So satisfying to play the PCE Core with it and on my CRT. I was scheptical about it but the fact it is larger than a regular pad and the d-pad feels nice made it worth the cost.

[prisma torrent]

Is there a good resource to see which games properly utilize the 6 button pad?

[grand moss]

You can find a list here, in the README under "Compatibility"
https://github.com/pce-devel/PCE_Controller_Info

[prisma torrent]

Thanks bruh

[languid pagoda]

Every Halloween I try to finish rondo of blood and every Halloween I fail miserably.

[honest socket]

I end up just going back to Splatter House

[dreamy tiger]

I’ve made it to level 4. this game is brutal

Moving this question to here since folks here will know better #mister-hardware message

@earnest agate ^^

[earnest agate]

Oh thanks I didn’t even notice there was a sub channel for pc engine

Why didn’t I see it? :0

[crisp elk]

I actually like the TG16/PCE version more than the arcade. Same for After Burner

[steel ibex]

I always play a Castlevania game on Halloween each year. Last year I did Bloodlines. Maybe I'll do Rondo again this year.

[dreamy tiger]

@earnest agate So I think there is something weird going on. I was able to make it to the boss fine, but on one of my runs, I got weird corruption on the left side of my screen that creeped down for a bit (then I died unrelated to that). Didn’t happen on subsequent runs. I wonder if that’s what happens on real hardware, though

[earnest agate]

Yeah left hand side for me too

[dreamy tiger]

I’m using the redump bin/cue

[earnest agate]

I don’t have the actual game to compare though 😦

[dreamy tiger]

same

[earnest agate]

A question regarding this core. When choosing raw colours is it the actual color representation from the hardware?

[grand moss]

Use "original" to get the colors that the HuC6260 generated on original hardware (or the closest approximation possible). "Raw RGB" is less accurate

[earnest agate]

So what is raw?

[grand moss]

I don't know why they used that name. Internally, there is a shorthand that is used for moving around data. It is similar to the final output, but not exactly the same. Various colors are off. But some people altered their PC Engine machines to use those colors, not knowing that they were oddly oversaturated and didn't show certain differences on regular screens

https://pcengine.proboards.com/thread/979/improper-colors

In that thread is more info, plus a good example of a situation where colors are not showing enough difference (see the sky gradient)

[dreamy tiger]

@earnest agate just beat the level on pocket and didn’t notice any glitching

I’ve also not been able to reproduce the glitching on the mister

[spark osprey]

honestly, I see graphical gremlins like that on MiSTer across various cores every now and then. Issues that I can never reproduce after a cold reboot. It just seems to happen every now and again regardless of the core

it’s been that way for years. I seem to recall a bug a long time ago that used to result in even more occurrences (a memory clearing bug or something, I think?) and then it got fixed at some point and made these issues happen much less frequently….but they still happen every now and again

[dark osprey]

that's incredibly spooky if it's widespread

[spark osprey]

I mean it could be something weird like power issues

[earnest agate]

@spark osprey yeah the other day I had this garbled graphics on the Saturn core on Chaos Control remix. But it didn’t happen on a second play through

[spark osprey]

right

that’s the kind of thing I see from time to time too

it varies in severity

sometimes games boot to black screens and I can still hear the music/sounds

sometimes it’s ALL garbled and sometimes just part of the screen is messed up

but they’re always fixed by cold reboots

it’s much rarer these days comoared to say, a couple years ago

[dark osprey]

I don't think I've ever seen anything like that, and I pretty much never reboot my MiSTer outside of updates/dicking around with modifying main and/or the kernel

[spark osprey]

that’s interesting

[dark osprey]

although yeah with spooky non-reproducible bugs like that it's hard to rule out just because you haven't hit them yet

[spark osprey]

I remember years ago I used to have a common problem where after I’d be playing for so long, my screen would start shimmering kinda…almost like parts of the screen were pulsing

[dark osprey]

that sounds very power-y

[spark osprey]

cold reboot always fixed it

it may have been psu related

that hasn’t happened in a long time

and I think I upgraded PSUs and such

but I remember there was some bug related to memory that also got fixed at some point that cut down a lot of those random gremlins too

anyways i’m hittin’ the hay g’night!

[left merlin]

I’ve occasionally seen garbled gfx when starting a new game after I’ve played something in a different core and then starting a new core and game
The reboot has always resolved it.
I wonder if that’s something that the MiSTer main is having an effect on or not - cuz, isn’t the reboot the main being reset?
I’ve only noticed garbled gfx on the Mega Drive, PC Engine, and NES cores.

[grand moss]

These tend to happen more when you change cores without a reboot.

[languid pagoda]

What's your trick to not lose all your life before the boss and ne sent back to the beginning of the stage? 😭

[spark osprey]

Yeah, that definitely could be it

[steel ibex]

Wear a cross and drink some holy water before playing. ✝️

[languid pagoda]

Tried that, but the burning sensation distracted me and when my head began to turn around 180° I couldn't see the screen anymore.

[steel ibex]

Just turn your back to the screen!

[worn spindle]

Skill issue.

[languid pagoda]

Are savestates for pce possible? That could help players like me to improve in rondo of blood.

[grand moss]

Not on this core

There are actually only a few cores with savestates

[languid pagoda]

Too bad. Some day I will beat rondo as nature intended.

[naive stump]

I watched a playthrough recently. What part do you get stuck at?

[languid pagoda]

Level 4

[naive stump]

Git gud

[dreamy tiger]

I feel you. I am also stuck on level 4

I tossed some cheats on my mister, beat level 4, and forgot to disable the cheat, so it just kept giving me points for my infinite health

[languid pagoda]

I wish I could be as skilled as @naive stump and WATCH a playthrough.

[naive stump]

It takes a lot of focus

If you stream it I can backseat game too

[dark osprey]

Is that the ghost ship stage? Or the weird bowling ball one? I forget

Looks like it might be time to replay it also, haha

[dreamy tiger]

The boss has the long jousting lance thing

[earnest agate]

What’s the reason save state isn’t possible on the core?

Save state is a game changer. Quite a few hard games I’ve been able to finish just in the last few days on SNES

[dark osprey]

Ah ok the bowling ball one then lol

[grand moss]

I didn't say save state wasn't possible, but it wasn't built from the ground up with savestate in mind. Maybe in a few years somebody will expend the huge amount of effort to implement it.

[summer lintel]

I've played all the dang Castlevania games and can't beat any of them lol

[dark osprey]

at least with the metroid style ones you can mostly just grind your way through to success if you are struggling, and they don't have platforming stuff for you to get stuck on, it's mostly just combat

[left merlin]

Rondo of Blood is one of the easiest ones I’ve played. The NES and GB ones were significantly harder.
Rondo is even easier when you play as Maria.
I still can’t believe how fortunate we were to get three different yet awesome Castlevanias in one generation.

[dark osprey]

I’d say IV is the easiest of the classicvanias at least, agreed the NES games are the hardest though

[earnest agate]

Yes 4 is very easy

Same with Dracula X on snes

They are terrific

Dunno what people are on about

X on snes is terrific

[summer lintel]

yeah I get lost in those so I can't win lol

[summer lintel]

what this is insanity

[summer lintel]

Everyone says this yet I've been stuck for like 30 years lol

[left merlin]

My own experience. YMMV. ✌️

[summer lintel]

Yeah I find Rondo quite challenging

[left merlin]

Richter moves quicker than Simon and the secondary weapons plus crash makes it easier. Plus OMG Maria makes it a cakewalk.

Maybe I just played the Castlevania triple much more then as I was very into the series then ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[summer lintel]

I just suck at them, it's pathetic how bad I am at Castlevania IV after decades of playing

[dark osprey]

I mean the "easier" ones are still classicvanias with platforming challenges and punishing bosses, no shame if you can't beat them

it's the same for me with shooters, even the ones that people say are easier I still find nigh on impossible to 1CC

[pseudo rivet]

people say Castlevania IV is easy.. but I recall struggling with it somewhat bitd

..course I beat it eventually, then never played it again after that. But still ;p

[steel ibex]

Yeah, 4 is probably the easiest game in the series when it comes to the non-metroid style ones.

[pseudo rivet]

I totally passed on NES Castlevania 1, so I always missed all the tropes /references/ traditions/etc. in subsequent games in the series.

wasn't until I played it decades later I'd be like ohhhh.. that would have been cool seeing them redo it in the later games ;p

[steel ibex]

I always love jumping and whipping in place after grabbing the boss orbs in Castlevania 1. Good times.

I was blown away when they actually referenced that in Smash Ultimate.

[slim yew]

As a kid I played 4 so much that it felt easy, but it does feel hard now that I am out of practice with video games.

If only there were some system that made it easy to go back and play these games. 🤡

[left merlin]

Cheats cheats cheats 🤪

[hasty flicker]

4 if you count the x68000 game

[left merlin]

True. Though for all the people in the family who played games then, I never knew a single person who had an X68000
I only learned about it from the PS1 game

[hasty flicker]

Oh yeah I mean I’m from the US so I didn’t hear about Rondo either until the late 90s

[dark osprey]

they never released the PCE in my country, so I first knew about it as "that wacky Japanese console you can emulate to play the SotN prequel"

now it's just "that whacky Japanese console you can play 55000 shooters on"

for real though, I have really enjoyed discovering more of the PCE library on MiSTer, definitely one of my favourite cores now

[hasty flicker]

We got the turbografx and turboduo but I didn’t know anyone that had one, and I think the duo’s library was especially stunted here, less than 50 iirc

I have a buddy whose grandparents bought a turbografx on the cheap for their grandchildren to play when they were over so he has some memories of it, but as an 89 baby I literally never saw one except on store shelves

[dreamy tiger]

It was the first 16bit system in the US, yeah?

[hasty flicker]

No genesis was I think

[dreamy tiger]

oh yeah, you’re right. by 15 days

[hasty flicker]

I think it probably only sold okay right of the gate here, which unfortunately was also during a great year for the NES. Sega fought a lot harder to get a slice of 3rd party support out of Nintendo’s grip with generous licensing deals and even then they didn’t really start to claw away significant market until Sonic released.

[dreamy tiger]

i bought one used off a friend

it was my first console

[hasty flicker]

Think we got an NES in 88 and then didn’t get a SNES until like 95 when it was twilighting here

Though we got a ps1 for Christmas 97’ which was arguably when that console was really heating up

[dreamy tiger]

yeah, 97 was a good year for the PSX

[earnest agate]

Lol

I’ll tell you which is the best Castlevania of them all

Belmonts Revenge on Game Boy

Best soundtrack as well

[earnest agate]

That’s the game Konami should have remade for Wii

[languid pagoda]

I wish the castlevania classic collection had a kid mode so people like me can play them like the toddlers we are

[steel ibex]

Nah, Adventure needed the remake more. Better to remake a bad game into a good game rather than needlessly remake an already great game.

[earnest agate]

That’s fair

But I wish they had remade the other two as well

[languid pagoda]

"I wish konami made games instead of pachinko"

[earnest agate]

😮

[stiff lotus]

lol gotten

[languid pagoda]

You're lucky sekiro is the only fromsoft game without multiplayer or I'd challenge you for a duel for my honor!

[desert willow]

Hello everyone 👋 quick question, can anyone confirm if this controller works with PC Engine SNAC: https://a.co/d/jjMd0J7

[steel ibex]

Might want to try asking in #controllers .

[desert willow]

Will do! Many thanks 🙏

[crisp elk]

@desert willow I considered that controller but ultimately I bought an Avenue 3 Pad. I don't use SNAC but my Reflex adapter works great with it and my other controllers

[dapper bobcat]

From their website: "Don't have a Polymega® system? Our retro controllers are even compatible with the original consoles, such as the NES, SNES, GEN / MD, and PCE/TG16. " So, I would 'assume' it would work with David Shadoff's SNAC. Might pick one up, much cheaper than importing an original 6 button pad.

[desert willow]

That was my thought too after checking Ebay and seeing the price of old controller. Plus the two button mode on the polymega also acts as a three button mode.

Would it work with this snac too or no: https://misteraddons.com/products/snac-pc-engine?_pos=2&_psq=Pc+engine+snac&_ss=e&_v=1.0

Oh wait it says David Shadoff in the description, my bad

[dapper bobcat]

Yes, that is the SNAC I was referring to. I have that one, it's nice.

You'd need the PC-engine to TG-16 adapter cable too.

WHich he also sells

[desert willow]

I thought the Polymega controller had a PC-Engine style connector? Am I missing something? (never owned either console)

[dapper bobcat]

Oh, I might have missed that.

[desert willow]

Ah no worries friend 👌

[dapper bobcat]

Yep, just double checked, you are correct, it is PC-Engine style connector.

[desert willow]

Glad to hear that it’s the real deal! Can’t wait to get it, and worst case scenario I return the Polymega controller if it doesn’t work.

Thank you so much for helping me 🙏

[grand moss]

I've never seen a Polymega controller up close, but I hear that they're actually quite nice

I don't know of anyone using one on MiSTer, so let us know.

[desert willow]

Will do!

[night breach]

Is there a discord that I can join for pc engine repairs? Specifically, I blew a fuse on my launch PCE. Wondering if I can use a pico fuse.

[dreamy tiger]

Check out RetroSix’s discord

The answer may actually be on their wiki

https://retrosix.co.uk

[grand moss]

There's also this forum. The Repairs & Mods section can take time to get responses, but they're generally good (eventually).
https://pcengine.proboards.com/

[summer rivet]

Proboards - now there’s a name I haven’t seen in a long time!

[knotty skiff]

You’ll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy

[desert willow]

Hello again dshadoff!

I just got the PCE snax and Polymega 6 Button controller in the mail and can confirm it just works! Tested Rondo of Blood, R-Type, and SFII. 2-button mode, 6-button mode, and turbo all works. (I still don't understand 3-button mode and what games use it, but in 2-button mode, button III acts like the run button, if that matters.)

[grand moss]

Cool !

3-button mode is just that some games wanted to use the 'run' (or 'select') button as a third button. 3-button controllers allowed that to be a button shaoed like the others. Games using this were Valis III and Forgotten Worlds. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that come to mind

[desert willow]

Thanks for explaining! 🙏 I know one thing people said for the original 6-button controller was that it couldn’t do 3-button, so cool to know this one seems to do it all

[dapper bobcat]

@desert willow Thanks for confirming. I will probably pick a few of these up then. How's the dpad and buttons feel?

[desert willow]

No problem man 👍 so far I’ve mostly been playing Rondo of Blood and the buttons feel super satisfying to press (right at that sweetspot between clicky and soft).

The D-Pad is like 10% to small for me (I have fat thumbs) but it feels responsive for everything (except for guardian knuckle but I only just learned the input and I feel I can get better at executing it with practice).

What really ties it all together is how it feels sitting in your hand. It’s comfortable and the build quality is solid. I bought mine from amazon in case I need to return it but I’m not gonna be doing that.

[dapper bobcat]

Yeah, even the original pads have slightly small d-pads. This is great info, thank you!

[desert willow]

Anytime man, and thank you for helping me with my snac questions so I could play with it 🙏

[grand moss]

Test core (and explanation of what to test) here:
#test-builds message

[blazing hatch]

Well, sprite issues and potential other visual issues are at least the easiest to spot. Will put it on my MiSTer then and report back if I happen to stumble over garbled graphics. It is strange enough that the issue had effects to just ONE (known) game.

[grand moss]

True. The solution may fix just that one issue, or it may affect other games. He's not 100% confident about this

I couldn't find anything wrong, but I can't spend too much time on games - more people = more coverage

[dreamy tiger]

I'm still new to the whole unstructured testing thing. Is the best thing to do to load up random games, play for 5-10 minutes, and then move on? Or is there a better approach?

I do much better when @slender bluff gives me a spreadsheet 😄

[grand moss]

I would try to focus on games with lots of sprites and potential flickering issues like R-Type

See if it flickers even more than original systems

[proven portal]

True

[grand moss]

It's a video timing thing, so... since you don't know all the video mode settings of all the games, there is an element of "try everything"

[faint dagger]

I've maybe seen something with Parodius with the test core, the catboat on the first level seems to be missing some tiles.
I need someone else here to confirm or not.

[grand moss]

Can you take a picture, and then verify against the current official core ?

(similar picture as much as possible)

[faint dagger]

I've asked literally a check with the original system + HuCard, as I can't do it myself (at the moment).
False alert, the tiles are missing on the console too, that's not a regression on the core.

[grand moss]

OK

Yeah, I just played on this core and the previous one, and they looked similar

[narrow tide]

which games are giving problems ? I can do tests with real system.

[blazing hatch]

Tested Chou Aniki, Sapphire and the supergrfx hack of R-Type yesterday which are all known to show many sprites and to have some flicker due to it. I didn't notice any differences to the regular core or to the console itself but it wasn't a scientific approach.

[proven portal]

https://discordapp.com/channels/647909397477195803/737506076806611064/1305929925089558629

Please test a couple of games with the linked core

srg fixed the outrun issue mentioned here: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/213

dshadoff would like us to test some games to see if they are affected

[steel ibex]

Wait, there's a supergrfx hack of R-Type!?

[blazing hatch]

https://pcengine.proboards.com/thread/771/unfinished-type-sgx-hack

It forces the pc-engine into a higher vertical resolution

Thus it doesn't have to scroll upwards and downwards if you move towards the borders of the screen

[steel ibex]

That's awesome. A shame it's unfinished though.

[pallid kestrel]

I've testing Ninja Spirit, Pacland, Newzealand Story and Gunhed with the core containing the tentative changes, and I don't see anything unusual with sprites, either. These are games I know pretty well on real hw (even if I don't have real hw here with me to test).

I can also send real (PAL) hardware to whoever needs it to test, for free. It would have to be around xmas, when I will travel to my parent's home where my TG16 consoles are.

Also tested Legendary Axe, got to the 3rd stage, nothing strange to report

[narrow tide]

Nothing strange for now

[narrow tide]

Kabuki Ittoryoudan is broken (Arcade Card Game)

With the last unstable

But it seems to not happen with fast seek on

[proven portal]

Interesting, does it happen on the stable core?

[grand moss]

There was no change to the disc timing - if it happens with fast seek on, it should happen with fast seek off.

Pleas describe the issue

I don't see anything wrong

[grand moss]

I don't know what you mean by broken

[narrow tide]

look at the life bars

[narrow tide]

I will test again for be sure

I can't reproduce it again

so maybe an isolated error !

[stiff lotus]

Could also be a software error and occurs on real hardware too

[faint dagger]

VDC: fix line break on HSYNC signal (Outrun) commit have been pushed by srg320.

[stiff lotus]

NOICE

[narrow tide]

This problem in Mugen Senshi Valis

[proven portal]

I think this is due to the bios

[narrow tide]

Ummm... which bios are you using ?

[grand moss]

Definitely BIOS, I saw that reported before

Use Japanese BIOS like the README states

[narrow tide]

Ok, i will test tomorrow other set of bioses

[grand moss]

Sure, please report back too. I confirmed on my own (Japanese BIOS) with the October 30 build, and it was OK

I'm assuming the build from the check-in is the same (and I have no reason to think it's different at this time)

[narrow tide]

could you share the bios ?

fixred

fixed

[granite sinew]

can anyone test Out Run on original hardware and just pause the game after starting to see if there are random horizontal lines that appear and flicker on the screen? I don't remember this from before when I played it

[worn spindle]

Did you try the latest unstable build? It has a fix related to OutRun.

#unstable-nightlies message

[granite sinew]

I tested the core with the XE-1AP mode enabled to try it in conjunction with the Thrustmaster T300RS wheel support mister-main update that sonik submitted. controls work fine but i cannot find the gear shift button. maybe its on an unbound axis..

[granite sinew]

Thats the core I'm referring to. ending screen is fixed but i noticed the flickering lines there.

nevermind, tested the older core and the lines show exactly the same. IIRC this was confirmed against the original console already

[grand moss]

It happens

The game it severely borderline.

In fact, I feel like the flicker on the new version of the core is reduced from the previous (and the original hardware has some amount)

In any case, I spoke with srg320 about all this, and we dug as deep as we could (at this time) into the video display controller's timing chain

We know that there are some small deviations from original hardware, but exactly how they occur is a bit vague.

Impartant part is that - as far as I can see - all games are good.

Second important part is that we are aligned on wanting to make it a "perfect" replica. We were both a bit frustrated at the remaining questions

In order to reduce the variances to zero, we need to either:
a) Wait until somebody does a full schematic from the chip photograph (but that isn't likely to happen soon, since the "standard cells" aren't yet identified), or
b) Take many more measurements on real hardware. srg320 has a much better setup to take those measurements, but he's busy on Saturn right now. I've offered to send him hardware, so we'll see if that becomes a thing he wants to do at some point in the future.

In any case, "never say never", but there shouldn't be emulation gaps that game players can notice on the video.

On the other hand, I am also looking into the SCSI subsystem as there is a rare intermittent thing I want to understand and fix

(plus I would like to implement CD+G at some point)

[granite sinew]

Appreciate you both making the effort to get it right. The core is wonderful already 🙂

[granite sinew]

Those lines that come up in out run that have variations between builds like you described, are very similar to what I saw in that dungeon crawler PC engine CD game Kagami no Kuni no Legend on that one scene where you said it didnt appear on original hardware also. Wonder if those examples could be helpful in hardware comparisons in the future

I probably still have the save file near that point in the pce-cd game also if it could be helpful

[grand moss]

That is certainly going to be close to the areas still in question

Might be interesting to check if that Kagami no Kuni issue still exists

I wouldn't be surprised either way

[narrow tide]

i'm going to tesy

test

what are the points that diverge with core and original hard at the moment ?

[grand moss]

Hard to explain. Basically where in the overall cycle-train the sprite fetch takes place versus character fetch for various out-of-spec values for the video registers, and how clock-domain crossing takes place for video reads/writes during active display, horizontal retrace, and vertical retrace (and precisely where these phases start/end)

Of course, it all matches up nicely in all general cases, but sometimes with a cycle variance

The only way you're going to be able to test is by writing specific code and a logic state analyzer with over 32 inputs

and a huge input buffer

[narrow tide]

to our eyes it is not perceptible

[grand moss]

We're not talking about 1% variance - this the extreme edge

[narrow tide]

you want to say that, i thinl

[grand moss]

I'm not saying that you can't see it - there may be a case where it makes a difference, so keep looking

Just don't plan on finding anythign

Plan on having some fun playing the games though

[narrow tide]

oh yes

of course

[grand moss]

I'd say that an ede case at this point may show up as a slightly different sprite flicker when over 16 sprites, or a possible "shearing" of a screen if BX/BY offset get latched at the wrong cycle, or if somethin happens 2 cycles too early, so a raster offset gets latched right at the edge normally, but misses (or always hits) on this core

[narrow tide]

just 2 days ago I take out from the closet the real hardware and wanted to give it some power. I always play in the MiSTer

[grand moss]

OK

I expect that you won't find anything actionable on video on regular, published games - but a couple of number on certain test ROMS are slightly off

This issue is real, and still happens, but it's rare:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/176

Not really limited to this game, but this game seems to have the highest incidence of it (maybe 10-20% of the time)

A couple of other games have been found to freeze on rare occasion - this looks like it's in the SCSI subsystem which I am now looking into

The freeze happens because some miscommunication takes place during CD data transfer with seek time 'normal'

Like the protocol gets mixed up

Very rare though

Actually hard to test since it's rare to begin with

[narrow tide]

Ahh yes, it uses SCSI CD

I have a PC-8801 MC that uses the PC-Engine CDROM. I supposed it was an SCSI CD, but I really didn't know.

[grand moss]

Yeah, it's probably the earliest CDROM to be released as a consumer product

[covert sinew]

While the need for a turbo tap for multiplayer is an additional cost, it’s sweet that you can just use one set of cord extenders to the tap!

[grand moss]

Be careful with that; back in the day, there were often issues reported when using it in that configuration (and the actual manuals said that was not how to set it up)

In truth, I think it was a voltage-drop thing based on the quality of the extender cable, so it was dependent on a range of factors

[left merlin]

Does that happen with USB as well?

[grand moss]

Are you talking about the Mini PC Engine ?

Should be much less of a problem on USB for controller peripherals, but it could still be a thing, depending on the cables

[covert sinew]

That photo is actually with the Analogue Duo. So far have never had a problem…

[left merlin]

In general but yes I was also planning on using the USB mini PCE multitap on MiSTer. Would a 1-2m cable do anything to reduce power?
I seem to be having USB hub issues ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[grand moss]

USB depends on the cable

There are good cables out there, but there are also lots of cables that will completely reset the whole USB chain if there is spark anywhere in the same room

I'd recommend positioning the console closer to the users if that happens

[left merlin]

Other than user ratings, which can be faked it seems, how would one go about finding good cables or checking if the ones one owns are good or not? The MiSTer USB hub seems to be more finicky than anything I’ve ever owned before.

[stiff lotus]

What’s your power supply rated at?

[steel ibex]

Robby out here trying to shame power supplies.

[left merlin]

It’s the meanwell suggested one, GST25A05-P1J

[grand moss]

Well, from the start, USB 3.x cables are going to be better than any cables of a lower standard. (USB-C tends to also be good, but if you're talking about the MiSTer hub, it doesn't so USB-C). I'd say to use cables from reputable brands, but honestly, the marketplace is a mess with very few recognizable names, and those are often counterfeited anyway.

[slender bluff]

Amazon Basics do USB 3.0 cables, which I would hope are guaranteed to be genuine if you order on Amazon

[quasi zodiac]

Looks like 1941 is broken with the latest unstable. The background flickers and it’s like splitted into top and bottom.

[dreamy tiger]

Yup, seeing it here too. Things are fine on the stable core

[faint dagger]

Issue filled just a moment ago, confirmed on my side too.

Just letting srg320 knows too through GitHub.
@grand moss could see it here eventually if that interests him to check, but won't disturb him on a Sunday.

[grand moss]

Yeah, that's unfortunate

[faint dagger]

srg320 have fixed the issue, so quick.

As always.

[stiff lotus]

I didn't know he worked on the TG16 core, wow

I saw it got updated a bit ago

[faint dagger]

He's... everywhere!

[dreamy tiger]

SRG is a working trickle down economy

[steel ibex]

srg watches over us all! 🙏

[grand moss]

Yeah, he wrote it. I just maintain parts of it

[dreamy tiger]

Not sure if it needed confirmation but I can confirm that the expermiental core now renders that 1941 bug in the same way the stable core does

[grand moss]

Cool

[faint dagger]

I've tested and closed the issue ticket earlier.

[pallid kestrel]

Late to the party, but yes, 1941 works great now 🙂

[cosmic wasp]

Is there a method to getting translated/dubbed pc engine cd games to run on the mister? Every other cd based console core seems to run hacks fine

[dreamy tiger]

Which one are you trying to run? Is it bin/cue or chd?

[grand moss]

Well, you need to apply the patch - it doesn't auto-apply while system is running.

[steel ibex]

I haven't had any trouble with them. Though I downloaded pre-patched files.

[grand moss]

But honestly, every time one comes out, the next day a pre-patched version is already on the net

[steel ibex]

The dubbed Valis games are so badly done that it's almost worth checking out just for the lulz.

Ys 4 on the other hand is incredible fan dubbing.

[cosmic wasp]

Bin cue

[cosmic wasp]

The ROMs I have are pre patched. Are those just not going to work here?

[steel ibex]

I'd love to see someone take a crack at R-Type. The CD version has a surprising amount of cutscenes.

[grand moss]

The dubbed Valis games are official releases

Assuming you mean Valis 2 and 3

[steel ibex]

I'm talking about the fan dubs for Valis 1 and 4.

[grand moss]

Pre-patched everything works. Not sure what you are talking about

[steel ibex]

They were like, AI dubbed or something. It's so bad. But oddly funny.

[cosmic wasp]

Any patched game I try to run on the core fails to load when I press the run button on the start screen

[grand moss]

Oh, I saw about 30 seconds of one o fthose, and cringed away

You can only be talking about patched discs if you have a start screen

[dreamy tiger]

Could be the dump. I have played through rondo translated on the core

[grand moss]

and are you using pre-patched, or patching yourself ?

[livid sinew]

Are you using the US System Card (BIOS) perchance?

[steel ibex]

All mine have been pre-patched and work fine. Though I turned them into chd files. But that shouldn't matter at all.

[cosmic wasp]

Pre

[grand moss]

Then you have bad dumps

[cosmic wasp]

Got it. I’ll try to get alternates

I appreciate the help

[grand moss]

No problem. Because the redump folks dump everything in 2352-byte format - which is not native to this machine - it makes patching a non-trivial thing

[dreamy tiger]

Grab a redump set if you can. Also, you can check the archival place for a mister specific pack

[grand moss]

Yeah, whatever patch you're trying to play, somebody has placed a good copy of it out there

[cosmic wasp]

Is “Shape shifter” being completely unplayable on the core a known issue? I can confirm it’s not the dump. The opening cutscene is distorted and when the gameplay starts you cannot see anything.

[dreamy tiger]

^^ Confirmed on the 20241202 unstable core @grand moss @faint dagger. Fine on the stable core.

[faint dagger]

Okay, I will take a look within the next minutes and report back my findings.

[faint dagger]

Oh yes, quite an interesting one.

Thanks @cosmic wasp, reported to srg320 on GitHub too.
Confirmed on my side.

[true flare]

Does anyone happen to know where slate 2 is in Madou Monogatari? The PCE version of the game has no guides...

[grand moss]

I haven't looked at the files on this page, but they claim to be walkthroughs

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/turbocd/916088-madou-monogatari-i-honoo-no-sotsuenko/faqs

[true flare]

They are for other versions. Gamefaqs is weird about how it handles versions. Items and some maps are different in PCE so I can't use those.

[summer lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/you-made-those-words-up-soldier-boy-jensen-ackles-the-boys-blasphemy-gif-26043524

[left merlin]

All words are made up 😉

[summer lintel]

It's true

[summer rivet]

What is true? What is? What?

[naive stump]

I said what what

[hallow crane]

is there any settings to get .chd files to work? I can't find any that will load

[summer lintel]

Do you have the BIOS?

[hallow crane]

pretty sure i do, it was working fine with bin & cue files

[dreamy tiger]

Did you delete the folder and recreate it?

Or delete everything in the folder?

[hallow crane]

hmm, - I recently upgraded my SD card using that copy sd tool & then I removed the bin & cue rom directores & put a new directory with my .chd roms in there

[dreamy tiger]

Is the bios in the root of the TG16CD directory? I can’t remember if it’s just boot.rom or not, but there should be a file or two loose in that directory

[hallow crane]

I have a cd_bios.rom in there, which was working fine for the bin & cue files

Probably just bad .chd's? I should've tested a couple before spending all day copying them over 🥹

[stiff lotus]

CHD files work without modifying any settings.

[steel ibex]

Indeed. All my CD games are chd format in the core, and all work without issue or any modified settings.

[hallow crane]

sigh

[faint dagger]

I will need some help, with a video config on one of my systems.

All the cores, except the TG16 one could center the image just perfectly.
I don't know if something is possible to do with the TG16 core.
Changing the scale doesn't do anything

I'm using a video mode = 6 (for 640x480@60), on HDMI.
Aspect ratio = Original or Fullscreen (don't change anything at all) and scale = normal.

There is always a black bar on the left on every games on the PCE/TG16/CD-ROM².

[summer lintel]

Just curious why are you running such a low resolution on hdmi?

[faint dagger]

Small TV panel that only accepts 640p max.

All other cores are running perfect with it.

So either a config that I don't know, or a small issue with the core that wasn't known until now.

[summer lintel]

interesting

[grand moss]

It's not an issue with the core; I've worked with srg320 recently on timings, and they're fine. I can't talk about the scaler though

And I can't talk about your setup either.

[proven portal]

Yeah I don’t think it is the core either

[grand moss]

One thing that needs to be said (again, from time to time), is that all types of devices had different timings back then, and it wasn't uncommon that the user would need to adjust their TV from time to time (or put up with it)

[proven portal]

Scaler could be the culprit, art of fighting does something, and was initially thought to be the core. But it was actually the scaler since the game switches resolution

[faint dagger]

Thanks for your advices both of you, I wanted you experts' eyes.

[faint dagger]

After checking on 5 different TV screens (3 with 16:10 ratio and 2 in 4:3 with other video modes -720 and 1080p-), that black pillarbox is present everytime.

I've never noticed it before as I was only using 4K modern TV screens with a Normal scale.

[marsh fox]

I already told my friend "no" but he insisted that I ask ya'll about this:
https://bomberman.fandom.com/wiki/Hi-Ten_Bomberman

[faint dagger]

Lost.
We asked to Takahashi Meijin himself and some other preservation groups tried to find it too.
It seems that everything was thrown away from Hudson after the campaign.
They just retrieved an old CD-R which is just some OSTs and at the moment only preserved to a private JP group.

https://ameblo.jp/meijin16shot/entry-12449691343.html

For the original source in 1999.

[grand moss]

It hardly matters anyway, since it ran on custom hardware which nobody seems to know the details of

Better off writing a whole new version

[marsh fox]

The descriptions of the machine give the impression that it's a pair of PC engines cobbled together with a component out running at 16:9. Second one might only be providing the second bank of controllers. But without the rom, it really is moot.

[regal valley]

two PC engines cobbled together... so a SuperGrafx? 🤣

[grand moss]

But it wasn't/

It was a special hardware on a single bigger board, and the description I heard - especially since it was "Hi Ten" Bomberman - was that it was driving a HiVision TV set which would have been a completely different video processor

I understood that it was a provisional hardware version that was a potential precursor to the PC-FX, except a different CPU and a different video processor

[marsh fox]

I only know what I was told by my friend who is a Bomberman ultra fan. It is described as I said here:
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/hi-ten-bomberman-hi-ten-chara-bomb/

you might be thinking of the "sequel"
https://bomberman.fandom.com/wiki/Hi-Ten_Chara-Bomb

[grand moss]

No, I'm thinking of the "Tetsujin" board, which is specifically referred to here. "It took a unique combination of two PC Engine units, each equipped with a five-person multitap, a cutting edge NEC PC workstation, and custom made circuit boards that allowed the PC Engine to display at 16:9 instead of 4:3 on HDTVs provided by NHK, who had an interest in using Hudson Soft’s events to showcase HDTVs. This chimera of a setup would become known as the “Tetsujin” board, and it was estimated to cost about 2,000,000 yen (around $20,000 USD in 1993) at the time, making it obviously unfeasible to sell to consumers"

It may be the case that the PC Engines read PC Engine gamepads, but that's about it

Here's a separate reference to Tetsujin:

https://www.pcenginefans.com/forum/index.php?topic=1420.0

"in May 1992, a first prototype is introduced: It is here only about a "board' (together of components laid out on a chart). Composed of a central microprocessor HuC62320 (32-bits RISC, 10 Mips) and assisted by 5 coprocessors (management of the sound, input/output, pallet of colors, sprites and effects special like compression/decompression of the images), the in-house unit developed by Hudson terrace already the competition represented then by the consoles 16-bits and other computers. This level of design, the peripheral of storage (cartridge, CD-Rom...) and the manufacturer are not finalized yet. The project, then named Tetsujin (iron man), made strong impression in the specialized press. A probable marketing is announced for January or June 1994..."

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said the predecessor to PC-FX, except that it had a different video output (HiVision) and a different CPU (HuC62320 instead of V810)

The business about calling it 2 PC Engines... there's a couple of differnet ways that can be taken.

1. Almost certainly they were using PC Engine controllers at that time, and may have needed some PC Engine-like hardware to scan them.
2. The PC-FX itself contains similar/same components as PC Engine, with "double" stats - 2 video display processors instead of one, double the video memory on each, 2 ADPCM channels instead of one, and so on

[regal valley]

it could have been an arcade board, but maybe it was too expensive even for that

[grand moss]

It wouldn't have made sense; it was built for large multiplayer, and arcades are usually 1 or 2 players. But would certainly be a great party game

[left merlin]

Saturn Bomberman is what I thought the eventual retail product became 🤷‍♂️

[worn spindle]

You can absolutely tell that Hi-Ten Chara-Bomb did inspire the multiplayer mode in Saturn Bomberman because of how they reused most of the roster and the giant battlefield.

[steel ibex]

Interesting, I noticed a bug in Bloody Wolf with the first stage submarine boss. Seems like the sprite layering or something isn't correct, because you can see the boss when it's going under water when you shouldn't be able to see it.

[grand moss]

This is almost certainly an issue in the game itself - but if you have a way to compare MiSTer run versus real hardware, that would help to clarify

Similarly, if the behaviour has changed among the past few revisions of the core, that would also be helpful

[steel ibex]

I only checked a Youtube video that didn't show the issue. No way for me to check on real hardware. But I'm not opening an issue on github until someone can test it.

Luckily it's an easy test since it's the stage one boss.

[grand moss]

Don't trust Youtube videos; they are 90% from emulators with varying numbers of bugs in them

Yeah, we'll need somebody to play on real hardware.

[steel ibex]

Yeah, I know, but it's the only thing I had to compare it with!

But regardless, the Youtube video looks correct, and the core does not. Doesn't mean that an emulator isn't fixing a problem on real hardware of course. Just saying that it's most definitely not the intended behavior, even if it's not intended on real hardware.

[grand moss]

Until you've hacked some of these games, you have no idea how poorly some of them are programmed

I don't even remember how many times people reported various things about Loom which were exactly the same as it looked on real hardware, but were considered to be "wrong".

So I no longer make any assumptions

Truth is though, if it appears only on one game, it's more likely to be the game than the core, especially after several years of having the core - unless the core's behaviour changed

(This is why I was also asking about prior versions of the core)

Speking of which, which version of the core were you using when you saw this ?

[stiff lotus]

I actually try to find YouTube videos a decade or so older and recorded off a TV to make sure it’s not emulator shenanigans or at least make it easier to tell if it’s an emulator. Not sure how reliable that is tho lol.

[grand moss]

Is it the last release version (20240418), or one of the more recent "test" cores (such as 20250208) ?

[grand moss]

Since emulators have been around since the 1990s, and they have been easier to record from for that entire time, I just assume that they are emulation unless they are explicit about what was the source

[stiff lotus]

Yeah true

You win again!

[slim yew]

haha, yeah, I was just about to say not only do you get bad emulation, you get it through the ati all-in-wonder 😄

[stiff lotus]

lol I remember that

[grand moss]

MiSTer is currently the most accurate thing around (other than original hardware) - although Mesen has gotten to be a contender in the past few months

But this is not to say that it's perfect

However, it is at the point where original hardware needs to be consulted

[stiff lotus]

https://youtu.be/MuA-BNgiHhE

[grand moss]

Maybe Moondandy or somebody can verify this point - I am preparing for a Japan trip, so even if it is deemed a real issue, I won't be able to look at it until March

[slim yew]

Thats because the bones are their money, so are the worms.

[steel ibex]

Just the latest release build. Not unstable/test builds.

Here's a video that "claims" real hardware at least. No telling if it's true obviously. But at the very least, the issue is not present in this footage.
https://youtu.be/GFLBXDapFUY?si=8RmMyogW2Y8aP7xM&t=185

[thorny pelican]

@steel ibex - You playing the JP or US release on the core?

I should be able to have a look here in a bit

I'll even use my Duo-R to be consistent with the YT video.

[steel ibex]

US release of the game.

Uploading a video of it that I took on my MiSTer. Always fun playing with one hand while holding the camera with the other!

https://youtu.be/RB_RAcwv3x4?si=H90jMxEE6vWNInv4

[grand moss]

Oh yeah, that does look bad. BUT, tell me what your settings are - specifically for "Audio & Video" -> "Sprites per line"

This tends to be another area where things can pop up, and a pretty strong reason why there is resistance to adding new "features" to MiSTer

[thorny pelican]

Real Duo R. US version.

To echo David: check your sprite settings

[steel ibex]

Oh for the love of. How the heck did sprites per line get set to "extra" on my system? I always keep my settings at default. That was it. The bug doesn't occur when it's set to normal. Seriously no clue how or when that got changed on my core.

[grand moss]

I'm glad to hear it was just a setting like that

[dreamy tiger]

typical greedy mario behavior imo. needs all the sprites

[grand moss]

It only occurred to me because a homebrew author was recently saying how he flooded the play are with too many sprites to make some portion of the screen invisible.

[steel ibex]

I hate that setting! I always like to keep mine like real hardware.

[grand moss]

(Which is not how I would have done the effect)

[thorny pelican]

This is similar to when people post the title screen for Sonic 1 in the Genesis channel with “why can I see Sonic’s whole weird body?”

Because you turned off the sprite limit

Anyway: thanks for the excuse to get the Duo out, @steel ibex 🙂

[naive stump]

SMH my head

[slender bluff]

I am afraid PCE is one of the few consoles I don't own, so can't help here, maybe someone else can help out on this one. If you find one in a bargain bin in Japan then let me know 😉

[grand moss]

It's OK - it turned out to be not a problem after all

I know there were a few people who have been eager to test things here and there, but I keep forgetting who has original equipment and so on

[pallid kestrel]

"Not, agent! That's not mine! Someone put that in my pocket!"

[dreamy tiger]

How does this keep happening to me!

[pallid kestrel]

No, no, it's more fun like "Oh! It never happened to me before! It's the first time!" 😄

[stiff lotus]

I legit thought the MiSTer sucked when the very first game I played on it was Sonic the Hedgehog and the Sonic sprite was missing from the title screen. It was because I turned on the sprite limit removal option.

100% user error but that experience is why I'm always wary of including expanded functionality that can break some games, even if it improves others.

[golden edge]

The reason I like original hardware is that everything (usually) works as intended and it's the same reason I've got the MiSTer (i.e. to work as the OG hardware would) so I've never really seen the appeal of the extended stuff

[stiff lotus]

I am 100% with you. Prefer as vanilla as possible and greatly appreciate that’s how the cores are like by default.

As for the extended stuff, a lot of people didn’t grow up with these games or original hardware so they lack affection or understanding for the original hardware limitations and perceive those issues as obvious bugs that detract from the gameplay experience. And to be frank I don’t fault them for that at all. If you can enjoy an NES game without a flickering mess of sprites, that’s a superior experience from their perspective.

Emulation interestingly now has two audiences to cater to, those who know the original hardware and demand authenticity and those who don’t and demand quality of life improvements. The MiSTer clearly prioritizes authenticity and is better for it but it’s nice seeing an extended feature make it when it’s feasible.

[golden edge]

Yes! In terms of the 2 different audiences, I can think of no better example than the N64. Many, many people forget how blurry and low Res that console was thanks to emulation.

[stiff lotus]

And even loads of people here prefer to play their games using the Turbo core! Who can blame ‘em, haha.

[median zephyr]

Do I understand this correctly? Enabling additional sprites in the various cores has the ability to break things and should better be left turned off? Or is this behavior core dependent?

[dreamy tiger]

I think the general principle is: these games were created with X sprites in mind. Doing anything outside of the original spec can have unintended consequences.

[grand moss]

It's game-dependent. Some games are made better (less flashing), some games are made worse (including freezes in some cases)

I would say to play it with all the additional options off

Also, use the normal CD Seek time

The faster one can cause issues (mostly loud ADPCM noises)

[toxic mortar]

If you're looking for something new to play on the core, new homebrew demo just dropped, fun ninja game https://vectrex28.itch.io/ninja-squad

[stiff lotus]

Hey guys who am I?

"omg all the sprites are broken, oh no I found a new bug!!! Oh wait I had the break sprites option turned on"

[dreamy tiger]

It’s-a you, Mario

[steel ibex]

You on the Sega Genesis core!

[thorny pelican]

Can’t believe I hooked up my Duo for you…

[stiff lotus]

lol trueeeee

[coarse shadow]

What a great homebrew game. Honestly i haven't expected it to be that good. Hopefully more really quality games will follow. Most of the PCE homebrew stuff was too simple designed for me (technically and gameplay-wise).

[toxic mortar]

I agree, there's not much that feels commercial quality for action/platformer homebrew, esp compared to other systems. He is planning on adding a lot more stages to make it a full game.

[coarse shadow]

Played through the 2-level demo. Very fair balanced gameplay, compared to a lot of other action games. I really like it. Looking forward to the 2026 release. Hopefully we see a completed game with 5-8 levels.

[granite sinew]

Funny thing I noticed in the new Game Sack video last night when he showed footage for Rondo of Blood, it had the graphical bug that MiSTer's core had a while ago where the water reflection/ripple effect wasn't present on some stages:

https://youtu.be/yctj2puJYis?si=VOGyXKDuQIjp0itB&t=311

I can only guess thats recorded on the Analogue console. To quote their store page for the Duo; "No emulation" 😁

[dreamy tiger]

same as real hardware*

[grand moss]

It's a tiny developer community, with limited tools and few developers (until recently) who have been willing to roll up their sleeves to either write in assembler or add functionality to the existing tools (which are all open source).

[stiff lotus]

Yeah, I love the guy’s videos but it’s always struck me as comical that he isn’t familiar with the MiSTer, yet he dumps his money on Analogue devices which are consistently poorer FPGA implementations than on MiSTer.

The MiSTer is a far superior capture device too, perfect for streaming with its dual analog and digital outputs. He’s just an old man stuck in his old man ways or no one has sat him down and walked him through the obvious superior benefits using MiSTer for his videos can provide.

[thorny pelican]

I’ve always just figured him for a contrarian grump.

[toxic mortar]

Yeah, not trying to disparage, just the state of how it is. More niche console so homebrew will be even more limited, especially with lack of tools/people with nostalgia for it to drive new development.

[stiff lotus]

Or he’s one of those collectors that must use their games when playing them.

Which I get to a certain extent. It was one of the reasons why I initially wanted a Polymega.

[thorny pelican]

Look: when your defining life accomplishment is having bought a bunch of stuff, you need to justify it.

[stiff lotus]

Oh my god, you’re right. I never thought of it that way. That’s kind of really depressing.

Holy shit, no wonder so many collector’s put their self worth into their collections. I didn’t get it until now.

[naive stump]

https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/01G36J5NHG00050EHM6W0EPJFH/4x.avif

[thorny pelican]

Sorry to drop that level of self-realization in the chat this early.

https://tenor.com/view/scourge-thor-ragnarok-my-stuff-gif-14269794

[placid locust]

I don't think he's unaware of the mister at all. I think it more comes down to authentic game play capturing real hardware and real cartridges and he even gets shots on a real CRT.

[pallid kestrel]

I sold all my Analogue consoles recently, except for the Pocket which feeds up from MiSTer cores after all.
I wil NEVER buy a single thing from that company, they left us with buggy cores in every console, then they go for the next, etc.
MiSTer is the way to go.

[stiff lotus]

Yeah, he definitely prefers that and he does an amazing job. But if he uses an analogue console to capture video (if he is) why not just use the MiSTer instead?

Or maybe I’m just wrong and barking up the wrong tree lol

[placid locust]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stiff lotus]

That’s what I keep reading and it saddens me a bit. However truth be told I’d probably wouldn’t be the person to notice those issues unless they’re especially egregious lol.

[dreamy tiger]

the analogue duo is not as hardware accurate as the mister - PARADOX

[pallid kestrel]

You would, believe me... there are MAJOR bugs on those systems

You are used to first-class cores on the MiSTer, going back to Analogue POS you would certainly notice the change to worse

[stiff lotus]

I think because I had my original CRTs I never bought an analogue console. But I’m 100% the target market; have a huge collection and would prefer the convenience of playing on an HDTV.

[pallid kestrel]

I given away all my carts and CDs away except for Zelda ALTTP, SMB3 and Starwing (Starfox in Europe).
ROMs are my way of life! 😄

[stiff lotus]

Honestly dude, I’m envious. You have what I have and none of the junk taking up space.

[pallid kestrel]

I gave them away to friends, made me very happy to see these things go away, ROMS are cleaner and live forever 🙂
If you give them to someone who will have them in display when you visit or something like that, you'll feel great, believe me 😄

I'm all against speculation in every aspect of life, so letting these things go for free was a liberation

All my gaming interests fit in that small box of dream that is the MiSTer...

[thorny pelican]

I bought the Super NT and Mega SG. No ragrats because I was able to sell them used for twice what I paid.

[pallid kestrel]

I sold them for exactly the price I paid for them. And I feel good about doing so.

[granite sinew]

Marketing goes a long way. Analogue knows this and they thrive from it, with buzzwords that cater specifically to the "real" hardware audience. There just isn't a path forward on those closed platforms to ever reach parity with what MiSTer and other community driven efforts can reach.

[pseudo rivet]

If I recall Gamesack did have a MiSTer video.. so he’s definitely familiar

[stiff lotus]

@grand moss you see this?

https://videogamesplus.ca/products/retron-gx-hd-gaming-console-for-turbografx-16-pc-engine-hyperkin-free-shipping-pre-order

[grand moss]

No, I didn't. But it doesn't interest me.

[coarse shadow]

Another butt ugly emulation device from hyperkin. No thanks.

[stiff lotus]

Yeah, probably lol

[faint dagger]

My tests on the internal build TurboGrafx16_HSYNCfix_20250208 seem to be positive these last days.
The issue on Makai Eiyuuden - Shape Shifter is fxed and no regression so far.

I've tested all Supergrafx titles and a personal top 100 games on the system (PCE & CD-ROM²) during the last 14 days.

[stiff lotus]

Goddamn, you’re a testing superstar! 🤩 ❤️

[faint dagger]

Even on vacation, and I like the system (that's just that).

[stiff lotus]

The MiSTer really opened up a lot of retro gaming consoles to me. I never really played the PC Engine before and it’s such a wonderful system.

[coarse shadow]

It's is. I'd ordered the console in an import shop (the beautiful white one) in 1989. What a drastic quality improvement in most categories. Still love it.

[pallid kestrel]

It is a fantastic system indeed. So many jewels! And the audio is superb too.

[stiff lotus]

So how powerful was the SuperGrafx? Was it more capable than the SNES or Genesis?

[steel ibex]

Not sure honestly, but the Ghouls'n Ghosts port on it is better than the Genesis version.

[coarse shadow]

It has more RAM and a third video chip. Nothing that boost the capabilities too much though.

PC-Engine = 8KB working RAM, 64KB Video RAM, SuperGrafx = 32KB working RAM, and 128KB Video RAM.

Ghouls'n Ghosts was still an early MD/Genesis release (1989 in Japan), technically it could have been much better. But yes, the SuperGrafx version is far better in comparison.

[dreamy tiger]

The arcade card added more ram too, no?

[coarse shadow]

Yeah, massive 2MB.

[dreamy tiger]

So much room for activities

[coarse shadow]

And still shitty CD loading times. 😆

[dreamy tiger]

Well nothing tops the neogeo cd. Undisputed champ

[faint dagger]

I 've found a possible regression with the HSync internal build on Sapphire, at least on the first boss battle.

I need to check if that build is the culprit or an issue not detected before.

[faint dagger]

A full power cycle of the MiSTer was necessary.

[worn spindle]

Is it consistent at least, or is it just one of those rare hiccups.

[faint dagger]

Hiccups, I have tested too much games in a same session, even after doing some resets and reboots of the core.

[grand moss]

I see the strike-out, but I'm travelling and not following. Is this actually an issue, and if it is an issue, is it recent ?

If I interpret the following statements, it sounds like it was a weird hiccup that doesn't happen from a full reset ?

[grand moss]

OK, I saw the updates in the GitHub log (including the hidden one), and I see that it was a hiccup.

[faint dagger]

There was an issue where the 'warning' and 'caution' messages were all scrambled.
A full reboot of the MiSTer fixed the problem.

But I'm also seeing right now some flickering on the final letters of those messages even after a full reboot.
On the same game, with the HSync fix version.
I have to check with a friend later today on the original system (and also with a previous core version).
Just to be sure and not doing a false alarm once more.

[grand moss]

You are referring to Sapphire still ? I seem to recall some flickering at points, but not in front of hardware at the moment

[faint dagger]

I'm referring to Sapphire, yes.

No flickering on my friend's original game and console so far, on the WARNING and CAUTION messages on-screen.

I need to test on previous core versions within the next hour.

Just to be sure if it's HSync related or something else.

Or if you have another idea.

[grand moss]

If you do conclude that it's an issue, write up an issue with a picture/video, and I'll verify when I get home. I play original hardware through CRT; sometimes external scalers can mask this type of issue.

[faint dagger]

No problem at all, if it's an issue, I will write down and take screenshots.

[grand moss]

The recent updates srg320 has been doing might touch sprite pre-fetch, but I expect that it would show up in other games before now.

So best to check both the last release core (April last year I think), and the latest test build (a few weeks ago)

[faint dagger]

That was my idea too.

Okay, I won't disturb you anymore on your travel. Thanks for the replies so far.

[plucky python]

Not sure if this is normal behavior, but noticed this last night. Was just reading some of the more recent comments here and I need to check and see if I have that sprites per line setting enabled (or whatever it is called). I did test the latest stable and unstable cores and both have the text box behind the anime gal's portrait.

Ys Book I & II (USA) of course. 🙂

I also noticed the latest unstable core has the entire image shifted to the right compared to the latest stable.

Another thing (I am probably wrong), but I could have sworn the MagicEngine emulator back in the day showed more of the border graphic at the bottom of the screen. I know most people hide that. Just curious if the core is not drawing everything in the overscan area?

[faint dagger]

After some more checks and comparison, this is normal behavior for Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire.
If we shoot too many bullets at the same time as the game displays WARNING or CAUTION in bold letters, the last letter will flash even on original hardware.

[spark osprey]

ya love to see it

[worn spindle]

Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire pushed the PC Engine hardware to its limits, so technical hiccups like that is to be expected.

[spark osprey]

I feel like Sapphire is a game that is likely to give graphical glitches whenever I’ve played it. Usually fixed by rebooting the MiSTer, so it could just be general MiSTer video gremlins, but I know it’s happened to me with that game in particular multiple times

[grand moss]

Don't use any emulator as a basis comparison; only original hardware should be considered "correct".

And for this, we have run other tests which evaluate the limits of vertical lines - Chris Covell's "Screen Dimension Test".

[stiff lotus]

Amen, brother

[naive stump]

I read that as Chris Cornell's Screen Dimension Test

[grand moss]

It's on this page: https://www.chrismcovell.com/creations.html

[golden edge]

Rusty Page

[left merlin]

Good old Chris McOvell

[blazing hatch]

Maybe his R-Type is the best version available. Really close graphics but better sound

See the link

[covert sinew]

I played it a bit recently and was impressed. Any idea how complete it is?

[blazing hatch]

From what I remember just the first 3 levels are forced into the higher vertical Resolution yet. I think that you can make yourself invincible by pressing "Select" or something

[regal valley]

it's basically one extra background layer and 64 more harware sprites. It's not a mind-blowing upgrade so I get why it didn't stick

the PC-FX took the same idea but added a 32-bit ARM CPU and a layer to display high quality video....much better improvement

[stiff lotus]

Oh so the PC-FX has direct lineage to the PCE? I didn’t know that.

[regal valley]

yep, like the SuperGrafx it has two HuC6270 graphics chips

they bet on the wrong horse though by adding a video decoding chip instead of a 3d processor

[worn spindle]

Even back then it didn't make sense. The novelty of FMV was already dying down by the time the PC-FX was going to release, so doubling down on a technological dead-end was a death sentence.

[regal valley]

typical NEC misguided marketing

the PC Engine was a nice upgrade to the NES though

[stiff lotus]

Its nuts that the Japanese did cd rom gaming in ‘89

[worldly drum]

that bubble economy

[pallid kestrel]

What do you mean by "bubble economy" in this context?

[stiff lotus]

The Japanese had a ton of money in the 80s so companies were more willing to invest in expensive tech and consumers were more willing to purchase it.

[pallid kestrel]

Ahhh... rapid economic growth, then came japan's eternal recession if I'm not mistaken

Thanks for the explanation about what he was referring to

[stiff lotus]

So how’s Cosmic Fantasy Collection 2?

[steel ibex]

I heard it's at least better than the previous collection, which had the horrendous backward battle translation...

[true iris]

My feeling at the time was that NEC wasn't prepared to put up the cash for a proper 3D chip and so they went for the cheaper FMV option, as a point of differentiation if not desperation. Remember that Sony put half a billion dollars into the PS1 development. This gen nearly killed Sega, the reigning champ. And with Sony locking up MIPS and Nintendo grabbing SGI, Sega was effectively dating both nvidia and, what, McDonnell Douglas? PowerVR? I forget. But it left few options for NEC.

It really looked from the outside like NEC's execs saw the low cost high sales end-stage PCE dating games and went "why try harder?"

Hudson was moving into 3D chips at the time, they had some solutions for mobile phones (the Shark series IIRC, which the internet seems to have forgotten), but they solved the wrong problems (power not performance) and AFAIK they never actually made anything really great, nor sold any to manufacturers.

Probably 5 years time difference there between the PCFX and hudson's 3D chips, actually.

[regal valley]

you're right, it's probably NEC not wanting to invest any further. I imagine they could have made an expansion card for the PC-FX for 3D

maybe prices of "proper" PCs went down too so software publishers targeted those more

[grand moss]

Story I heard was one step worse than that. Sega also didn't think 3D was going to be mature enough to put into a console, and figured to wait a generation - but when they got wind of Sony's plans and saw how far along they were, Sega scrambled with extra processors (the SH2's I believe)

NEC was apparently planning to release "when ready"

Frankly, I could understand the excitement around PCs (eventually) getting 3D, and workstations were pretty cool, but the version of 3D that went into consoles was pretty raw, and I didn't see how it was worth doing at all

[grand moss]

I'm back home, and starting to clean up things. Let me know if there's anything that actively needs testing, and I can probably get to it today or tomorrow.

[faint dagger]

At the moment, I've not found anything new on my play tests with the HSync core.
Makai Eiyuuden - Shape Shifter works correctly with it.

And I've not seen any evident regression so far.

So that's reassuring.

[grand moss]

Cool. I'll check the Super Darius thing in the issues log

and I think there were one or two things on the forum

It only gets busy when I'm travelling. 😆

[faint dagger]

Everytime, I know that feel.

[stiff lotus]

For you~~ PCE~~ TG16 fans, here’s a video about Johnny Turbo - #share-media message

[blazing hatch]

No access to that channel

[stiff lotus]

Try again, you didn’t have the Cycle Accurate role so I gave it to you.

[blazing hatch]

Thanks. Now I know everything about Johnny Turbo, the Comic that obviously inspired the Matrix

[grand moss]

How much more testing are you planning to do before we tell srg320 to commit the changes ? (I'm already convinced that it's good)

[grand moss]

I've also tested the other reports:
github - Super Darius II (cannot reproduce the issue), and
forum - Tekipaki Working Love (the referred-to menu item requires that the game be completed, so I requested save data)

[faint dagger]

For me, it should be good too.

[grand moss]

Oh good, it looks like this is now committed

[worn spindle]

So does this fix any game in particular?

[grand moss]

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/219

It was already in the test builds

[worn spindle]

Oh so it's just that build promoted to an unstable build.

[grand moss]

correct. The test build's code is now committed - but it's still not a 'release'
-> upgrade from "private code" to "public code"

[stiff lotus]

Would y’all like fancy pins in this channel since it seems like there’s a fairly regular amount of core updates happening?

[faint dagger]

Gimme a moment.

srg320 suggested a partial fix for Tekipaki Working Love.
The video doesn't freeze anymore when ending the game but there is a strange unpleasant noise when activating a TEST menu inside the game (with a cheat code).

It's totally WIP, but if some people wants to test a compiled core (and see if anything have regressed elsewhere).

[blazing hatch]

Including the other public fix of today?

[faint dagger]

That one.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/222#issuecomment-2701341791

[grand moss]

Mednafen has a bad noise too (and works), so I'm pretty sure they used a similar fix.

I have asked the author of Mesen to test how his emulator processes it - if it fails, he's got some information on what needs to be fixed, but if Mesen works correctly, he can explain what is different about his implementation

If we can't get a proper solution to this within a few days, I suggest committing the partial fix for now. It enables viewing the animations at a small cost of a noise. I expect that nothing else will have adverse effects.

Still, this means we have an "actual behaviour" gap that needs to be solved.

[stiff lotus]

@grand moss I'm going to make pins for this thread. But if that adds noise or you prefer it not to have pins I'll respect that of course.

[grand moss]

Pins are good, if they are meaningful (and if they're trimmed when no longer meaningful)

[faint dagger]

srg320 wanted some help with the verificator from KrikZZ on Mesen2.

I explained how to do it.

[grand moss]

Thanks for jumping in to help - I'm not the expert on Mesen, I asked the author for the details I produced

[faint dagger]

It's the simple stuff, so I leave you and srg320 the more complex parts.

[grand moss]

The good news is that mesen runs properly for that section of software, and has public code. The verificator is documentation of a series of tests; it's not clear whether it's a "sufficient" set of tests to fix the issue. But at least studying the different implementation in Mesen should be helpful

I have to drive into the office today, so I'll be away for most of the next 8 to 10 hours

[grand moss]

I saw that srg320 identified key code, but I didn't see a test core appear yet.

Not sure if he's expecting me to make the correction, or if he will produce a new test core soon (I haven't had the time to look at it)

[faint dagger]

I think he will produce another test core soon.

Generally, on the Saturn core, he does reply like that.

[grand moss]

OK, great. I didn't expect to have time for this until at least the weekend

The verificator tool does make me think about doing some cleanup though

I feel strongly that the occasional 'hangs' mentioned on a couple of games (2 issues currently open) are related to CD command timing.

[faint dagger]

Same thought when I saw some results earlier.

"That tool could help to understand some missing or incorrect parts on the CD-ROM".

[grand moss]

I have mentioned that i want to improve the SCSI - I'm looking at SCSI on the PC-FX right now, and the processing (on the CDROM side) is performed by a microcontroller, very similarly to PC Engine. With a microcontroller, each step in processing the data requires some time - several cycles of that microntroller's power. The SCSI section in the TG16 core currently transitions instantly, which is too fast. And I think that it is possible to desynchronize from the Main_MiSTer side when it runs too fast.

But I wanted to measure the actual timing before I made any changes. I think that issues 176 and 220 can get fixed by such a change though

[dull socket]

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/commit/25e4914a44d69bc8a2d19132106f1bbfa18259df

[grand moss]

Oh....

That's intersting

I kind of figured that if the fixed core wasn't already available for test yesterday, then he might be working on more than the one issue, but this sounds like quite a bit more

Looks hard to reconcile because it seems all lines are changed due to whitespace.

[faint dagger]

That's srg320.

You give him a test ROM; he will rewrite the whole module two days after.

Reminds me of the SCSP (sound chip) on the Saturn.

[grand moss]

GitHub Desktop can filter out the whitespace-only changes

Oh, I thought there was a CI in the repo for automatic build.. doesn't look like there is one

In any case, it looks like he's made changes to mask some registers, and implement a "MOTOR" , and a 17th bit on the ADPCM at least

These are motivated by krikzz's test scenarios

[faint dagger]

I'm not at home at the moment, let me do a remote compilation within the next hour.

[grand moss]

It still won't address the SCSI state transitions I mentioned, but this should dramatically clean up the krikzz test suite

This is new. Compile error

Error (10482): VHDL error at cd.vhd(711): object "FIFO_SCLR" is used but not declared

[faint dagger]

I've seen.

srg320 missed a declaration.

And already corrected from my part, the compilation is in progress.

[blazing hatch]

Ouch, I would have asked if you could add the one experimental fix for testing

The one that isn't on git yet

[faint dagger]

Let me compile the core for 15-20 mins from home and I will remote upload it here.
I'm on my way from work now.

I've left a comment on the code for srg320.

[dreamy tiger]

what should we be testing with this?

[faint dagger]

The CD module have been changed quite heavily.

So try your best (and no-so best) games for regressions.

[grand moss]

What fix is that ?

[faint dagger]

I'm checking if the core passes all the tests from Krikzz.

[grand moss]

I was about to do that too. I'm suree it will make more progress, but I don't think it will pass everything

[faint dagger]

You can do it too, as I need to leave for today.

[grand moss]

adpcm len ctr = er 84. which is better than before.

read cd dma2 = er. 25 which is better than before

cdd dma timing doesn't look like it will complete though.

So that's worse

[grand moss]

Yeah I saw

[faint dagger]

EDIT : The results are false, I will republish the correct ones later.

On the core, some seconds ago.

[stiff lotus]

More green than red, nice!

Just in case that wasn’t sarcasm, cool to see it pass so many tests.

[blazing hatch]

The one from zet's former TEST build

The tekipaki one with the strange sound

[dreamy tiger]

This is exciting

Even though SRG is doing everything he can to not work on 3DO :p

[blazing hatch]

3DO can wait 😉

[dreamy tiger]

Maybe, but can I?

[steel ibex]

I'll just give srg320 a 3DO test rom!

[dreamy tiger]

We've secretly switched SRG's TG16 core with his 3DO core. Let's see if he notices

https://tenor.com/boBvC.gif

[grand moss]

Strange sound is gone, but the start of ADPCM playback seems too early. I think I hear the sounds playing twice

At least it plays the videos now, without the strange sound

[worn spindle]

Oh so the inaccuracies with the CD module is why the core randomly crashes on rare occasions?

If that can be fixed, that would be pretty sweet.

[blazing hatch]

Maybe it's already fixed now

[grand moss]

If by "crashes" you mean "hangs", then yes.

To me, a crash and a hang are very different things though.

[faint dagger]

For explaining to some people here : A hang is when the program stops to respond completely after an input entered. A crash is when we have an unexpected exit code, like a failure unrelated from responsiveness and/or inputs.

[grand moss]

Right.... A hang is when the system becomes unresponsive but shows no improper output (other than failing to move forward). A crash is when the system aborts, or the screen suddenly shows random junk (or bad noises) as the system goes into an unresponsive state or restarts.

[plucky python]

No idea what any of this means, but I approve of these fixes! 😄

[stiff lotus]

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[junior berry]

The Return of the Lost Signal!

[faint dagger]

Okay, I didn't understood about the Verificator that you should test it only with a specific CD title.
Read too fast the explanations the other day.

[faint dagger]

Thanks to dshadoff for the correction on the issue log.

[grand moss]

So I guess that leaves us with the question of - will srg320 continue working on the "plays too early" issue for Tekipaki, or the "Er. 25" of the verificator (or will both be deferred) ?

I haven't looked at the code for the dms2 test yet, to find out what exactly is broken

[dapper bobcat]

Is there a list or spreadsheet anywhere of which CD based games require which system/arcade card, etc?

[grand moss]

If you run Japanese System 3.0 card with Arcade Card enabled, then everything will work. Except for a few Games Express games which you are unlikely to play

[stiff lotus]

You can’t tell me what to do!

[faint dagger]

Juuouki (Japan) (HA10817) only works with a System Card 1.0.
Revisions have patched the issue, so only use the revised one.

[grand moss]

Yeah, OK. If you really want to play that one

[faint dagger]

I was only making this remark as a supplement for people who want to make a set that works in all cases with the System Card 3.0.
Otherwise, we don't care at all, and sorry if this seemed rude at first sight.

[dapper bobcat]

Thank you both for the info, it is what I need today. But I was thinking there was a site somewhere (I probably have it bookmarked) that listed all the required system cards as well as what happens if you use the wrong card, like the wrong card screens and minigames and such.

[grand moss]

No, it's correct, and it's one that I forgot about temporarily.

But it's not a very good version of the game

[grand moss]

I've clarified the nature of the "ADPCM too early" in the bug. Not sure if he's continuing to work on this, or waiting for testing to take place.

[dreamy tiger]

tell me what I should be testing and I will test it

[grand moss]

I wouldn't recommend testing if he's still working on fixing the last gap

[faint dagger]

I will wait 1-2 more day(s) at least.

[worn spindle]

So I was playing Puyo Puyo CD and Puyo Puyo CD Tsu using the latest unstable build, and I noticed that there is cropping on the right size of the image. I even doubled check to make sure it wasn't anything on my end regarding the Morph 4K or MiSTer settings, but there is definitely something not right here.

The latest stable build does properly displays the graphics, so it's definitely a bug with the unstable build.

[grand moss]

Can you run against the last release build (20240418) and show the corresponding image ?

Or is that the one that you are calling "the latest stable" ?

[worn spindle]

⬅️ Unstable (March 7th 2025)

➡️ Stable (April 18th 2024)

Sorry if there was confusion.

[grand moss]

I can take a look on my setup after work

[worn spindle]

Thanks.

[grand moss]

He changed the timing around the hsync, but the line width should not have changed. I'm just wonderign whether it's MiSTer or the post-MiSTer video processing

What are you driving your signal into ? Did you say Morph4K ?

[worn spindle]

Morph 4K via direct video.

Like I said, I was playing with the settings just to double check the settings were right, but not matter what I did that crop still happened.

[grand moss]

I'll check regular HDMI via upscaler and CVBS output from MiSTer (and if needed, original hardware)

[worn spindle]

And again, the stable build doesn't have this issue.

[grand moss]

The total line timing has changed, but it's only around the sync width. Shouldn't change visible pixels.

But I'll look

Not sure if that affects Morph4K profile

[worn spindle]

Maybe a byproduct of the games themselves? They have an unusually wider aspect ratio compared to your typical PC Engine game, so maybe there is a relation.

[grand moss]

could be; I'll have to look

Is it both Puyo Puyo 1 & 2 ?

[worn spindle]

Puyo Puyo CD and Puyo Puyo CD Tsu they're officially called on the PC Engine.

[grand moss]

Sure, but it's affecting both of them ?

[worn spindle]

Yes, same issue.

[grand moss]

ok, thanks. I'll see if I can take a look when I get out of the meeting I'm currently in

[grand moss]

OK, I see it.

It changed somewhere between Oct 30 and February

I'll need to download the commits between those two dates to determine when it happened

[plucky python]

I noticed maybe something related to this as well with the RT4K. The image is shifted to the right in DV1 mode. I was playing Ys Book I & II (US).

[grand moss]

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/223

[grand moss]

Some people have been talking (on and off) about freezes on CDROM games on the PC Engine core.

I have a tentative fix, but I haven't been able to make my system hang even before the fix

Does anybody here have relatively common occurences, and wish to try out a sample fix core ?

[grand moss]

I've placed a test build here: #test-builds message

If anybody is actually experiencing these hangs, please let me know which games are most likely (and at what points), and try out this core to see if it is better

[stiff lotus]

I don’t think I’ve ever had it freeze on me but I downloaded the build and will give it a shot. Thanks, @grand moss !

[grand moss]

If it were to happen, it would be at a "load from CD" point. Quite uncommon though.

Only games I've actually heard of it happening on are:

• Tanjou Debut (during the intro, the characters would stop changing)
• Patabor (intro freeze)
• Bomberman Panic Bomber in Story Mode, at the "select a location" screen

[stiff lotus]

who’s Pat and why is she going into labor?

[grand moss]

Patlabor Chapter of Griffon. Maybe you need to ask Griffon

[stiff lotus]

lol will do!

[stiff lotus]

I’m not a super tester or anything but I’ve loaded up a bunch of random disc games and haven’t seen any issues at all

[grand moss]

Yeah, it's rare. That's why I was asking for people who had experienced the hang

[stiff lotus]

Unfortunately it seems you’re stuck with me for the time being lol

well I love this core and you do an amazing job so I’ll just cheer you on!

[slim yew]

Heh, in the song it’s “clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right” but pretty sure being stuck with Robby means you get all of the above.

[summer lintel]

I'm more of a Hufflepuff

[grand moss]

OK, I committed the changes because I didn't see any problems in the scenarios which normally would have been the "sensitive" ones, and there was no degradation/desync in the usual suspects - Yun HuVideo, Sherlock Holmes, and a few others

Not sure when the PR will be accepted, but I expect it will be soon

[blazing hatch]

@faint dagger? Is a test build with the fix possible?

[grand moss]

I already posted one #test-builds message

[coarse shadow]

The image cut on the right side for games with a wider horizontal resolution is actually more annyoing. Wanted to play R-Type yesterday, but had to switch to an older test build.

[grand moss]

It's logged, and I have to assume that srg320 will correct this soon, as it's code that he recently adjusted.

That one will probably be a small fix

Not sure what the Tekipaki Working Love fix will require

[grand moss]

OK I think I found the issue with the right edge on 7MHz games (like Puyo Puyo)

I've requested feedback from srg320 on that

He also accepted the PR for SCSI

[stiff lotus]

So Super Fantasy Zone is pretty great. Are there any other unreleased PC Engine games?

[grand moss]

Nothing in a near-complete state

There was Angles Holy Night (or some such title), but it's not really a game - more like a slide show

Game program wasn't completed

http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Angels_2-Holy_Night.htm

Well, I guess there were a few basically complete games...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0i-uJ5-kgA

And Tengen had:

• Off the Wall
• Peter Packrat
• Cocoron

[stiff lotus]

Thank you!

[grand moss]

There was also a TV Sports Baseball

https://hiddenpalace.org/TV_Sports_Baseball_(Prototype)

https://hiddenpalace.org/Category:TurboGrafx-16_prototypes

I don't think Cocoron or Peter Packrat can be actually located, though they apparently exist

[worn spindle]

I wonder if that canceled Bonk RPG still exists.

[dreamy tiger]

oh man, I would play that

[plucky python]

Wow…totally forgot about Bonk RPG! Pretty sure I saw screenshots in game magazines back in the day.

[grand moss]

OK, so this nightly build should fix both the rare hanging and the Puyo Puyo missing column

Please test and mention here if anything new broke, or if there are any issues with the fixes

At this time, the only issue which is still outstanding is the Tekipaki Working Love ADPCM

[blazing hatch]

Soo close to probably 100% compatibility. Exciting. 🥰

[stiff lotus]

What about that stupid undocumented video mode

[worn spindle]

Yeah the new build looks better.

[grand moss]

Not sure what you're referring to

[grand moss]

Eventually, I'll have to come back to add CD+G support, but let's get the bugs fixed first

[stiff lotus]

The 4x4 video output

[blazing hatch]

What's that, @stiff lotus ?

[stiff lotus]

Split resolution

I can’t remember what it’s called

Only like three games used it as a hidden test

Someone came in here complaining that the pc engine core didn’t support it like a year or two ago

[grand moss]

It might do it now though

[stiff lotus]

Ohhhh nice

[grand moss]

That's a resolution that has a split screen due to double HSYNC - one on 6270 and one on 6260

It's not really a mode, but rather an abuse of the tech

[stiff lotus]

Right, thank you

this core is the entire reason why I love the PC Engine. Never bothered with PC Engine emulators until I had a MiSTer.

one day dshaddof will like me

[steel ibex]

Wii Virtual Console was where I got my first taste of the Turbografx! Then I got the Turbografx-16 Mini, which is actually really dang good. But MiSTer is my ultimate experience with the library!

[stiff lotus]

Ok true, me too. I forgot about that.

Also the TG-16 Mini

[stiff lotus]

I forgot lol

[grand moss]

My first experience was in Hong Kong, where they were showing the PC Engine, months before the TurboGrafx was released in North America.

[steel ibex]

My closest experience to something like that was playing the GCN at one of Nintendo's "Cube Club" locations a couple months before the console launched here. Got to play Smash Melee at the event!

[coarse shadow]

@grand moss I really hope you release (or help with it) the ultimate PC-Engine book one day. This French book with the horrible English translation is not acceptable.

[grand moss]

I'm actually not the person who has played the most games, nor the best authority on the hardware...

Just a reasonable cross-section with tech skills

[grand moss]

Are you talking about the Kickstarter one from a few years ago ?

(When you say "...French book with horrible English translation...")

I didn't think that book was so terrible. It would be hard to make any book of that size and scope, regardless.

[coarse shadow]

I mean the Geeks-Line publishing book. Even as a non-native English speaker the translation was the worst i've ever read. A lot of sentences doesn't even make sense, odd sentence iterations or even half of a paragraph.

And the whole review section could have been better. The technical hardware infos and pictures are great though.

[grand moss]

That's the same one I'm talking about

Yeah, I have heard from French friends that they don't like the author, and feel that there are multiple types of problems with the contents... but I was happy to finally get an English-language reference, even one with deficiencies. No single book will be enough to satisfy everybody, and I've seen a lot of arguments about review of games (on all systems), so it's going to be hard to please everybody

But as you say, it would be nice to get another one

[coarse shadow]

I like the "Box-Art Collection" book from bitmap books though. Something like this with more hardware infos and longer reviews would be a great reference book.

[grand moss]

The challenge with reviews is that most games remain untranslated. If you can understand the Japanes ein the game, it's a good chance that you can understand a Japanese review book

[coarse shadow]

True, but a lot of games are just action games, puzzler, platformer etc. They could concentrate on this (what they tried imo in the Geeks-Line book, but very shallow ).

[grand moss]

Shallow, yes, but even so it took up around 600 pages

[coarse shadow]

They wanted to include all games, obscure/weird Japan stuff too (tons of the same Mahjong games too). A waste of book pages for us western audience. Anyway...

[turbid jetty]

late to the party. Chou Aniki (bin/cue from htgdb) hangs randomly during gameplay (during character select or level load screen) and after a few demo loops with stable, but i'm not seeing any issues with 20250318 unstable nightly yet

[grand moss]

Glad to hear it - keep looking and let me know more as you progress !

[grand moss]

Bummer - I found an issue. Tekipaki Working Love wouldn't transitions from the "NEC" title screen to the "Night Sky"screen at the start of music.

Not sure about the details, but it's related to only a small part of my fix

Rolling it back

[grand moss]

All of the other SCSI delays are retained though; I will ask that you retest with the new build once I put it up here.

[grand moss]

Here it is : #test-builds message

Should also be an unstable nightly any time now

[grand moss]

Dang it, I just saw Patlabor freeze after the rollback.

[turbid jetty]

not seeing demo loop freeze in Chou Aniki. haven't had a chance to do game play yet. happy to continue testing future builds 👍

[grand moss]

Thank you for your help

[blazing hatch]

If it were reproducible that would be a win compared to last week.

[grand moss]

Not on demand. The intro was running for close to an hour before it failed

[turbid jetty]

same experience with Chou Aniki. I guess I didn't let it run long enough :/

[grand moss]

OK, let me confirm whether I understood - the partial fixes which remain in this test build were not sufficient to prevent failure, right ?

[turbid jetty]

correct. I'm still seeing a freeze during demo loop but it seems to take longer compared to stable

[grand moss]

OK, thanks. That's helpful

[grand moss]

Can you try the previous version on Chou Aniki ? It was causing problems with Tekipaki Working Love, but I still think that was a good fix. (So maybe Tekipaki needs a different thing to be fixed)

[turbid jetty]

20250318 or 20250317?

[grand moss]

20250318

Just don't play Tekipaki. 😉

[turbid jetty]

sounds good. I've got demo looping in the background

okay watching 20250318 closer and it's also no good. the scene doesn't change until the audio track is finished

didn't notice it last night because I turned down volume and just let it run

[grand moss]

Sorry, it normally changes before the audio track finishes ?

[turbid jetty]

not my video but should be easier to explain. there's a logo explosion around 0:04 when the audio starts playing. 20250318 plays the audio at the same time but the scene does not change until the audio finishes.
https://youtu.be/spFpswpaAuw

[grand moss]

In order to validate, I'll need to run this on original hardware to see how it responds. I'm not familiar with this section

If that's a sounds timing thing, that might be closer to this issue https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGrafx16_MiSTer/issues/222

I was merely looking at hangs today

[turbid jetty]

gotcha. I've been letting it run since that message and it looks like it hung around an hour in.

[grand moss]

even on 20250318 ?

[turbid jetty]

yeah

[blazing hatch]

Can confirm

That's the title screen.

With 0307 it is shown 3 seconds and then an explosion is shown

With 0318 it is shown for at least 30 seconds. And nothing can be done to make it move on. Just like a temporary freeze. The music keeps playing though.

https://youtu.be/pchf-MNtosw?si=JAjxhELrSkyyQSyI

For cross reference

[grand moss]

I think there's no way around it - I need to take logic traces off a real machine to see what's going on

[grand moss]

OK

One more test

Do you know how to replace your MiSTer (main) executable ?

Would like you to try this:

(Together with the latest nightly PCE core)

[turbid jetty]

taking a look

[turbid jetty]

froze after 20min of demo loop

[grand moss]

Really. Wow. Well, it makes for a cleaner log, but I guess I can't solve everything

For what it's worth, I did countless Patlabor and Tanjou Debut loops and no issues

Which game were you testing with - Cho Aniki ?

[turbid jetty]

yeah

bin/cue over cifs if it matters

so another weird side effect of the test MiSTer bin is that it skipped over the title screen if i pressed Run/Start so i couldn't actually get into the game

[grand moss]

That shouldn't be a diffference

Yeah, you're right

How bizarre

Well, I didn't commit that change - it's only a comment in the buglog for now

Maybe srg320 will figure it out

[coarse shadow]

Holy Shit! The worst emulation console i've seen so far. 😆

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5htES1sHVM

[sick elk]

How is this even possible? In all seriousness

This console came out in like 1987 or something, it's 2025....this shouldn't be that bad.

[coarse shadow]

Rushed to market. Obviously without any kind of quality control.

[sick elk]

I don't think Hyperkin in general knows what the word quality means

[grand moss]

I'm not surprised. "Emulation console" is generally not a term of quality in the first place. That manufacturer has a spotty history on emulation itself

[stiff lotus]

Shmup Junkie has a new video covering underrated TG16 shmups - #share-media message

[coarse shadow]

Except for Dead Moon those games got all a good rating in German mags.

[grand moss]

Lots of good shootemups on PCE. Some bad ones too.

[coarse shadow]

Hawk F-123! I really don't know what they were thinking.

Or Deep Blue. Horrible game.

[grand moss]

Legion

[blazing hatch]

I cannot recommend the Tgx-16 dragon spirit though. Quite a lot of content was cut in the later levels and it is hard as nails. The hitbox feels even more unforgiving than in the arcade version.

[coarse shadow]

Never liked the arcade version. I think they did a great job with the home port. Including the full screen resolution. Just like for Kyukyoku Tiger.

[regal valley]

Rock On... its so bad

[cosmic wasp]

No idea who this is for. The console itself is too obscure to get impulse buys from casual players and anyone who can afford to have a physical PCE collection almost certainly can afford the extra money for an Analogue Duo.

The only thing I could think of is maybe it’s somebody’s passion project but a passionate PCE fan would surely notice everything running at a completely wrong frame rate

Genuinely the most baffling product release I’ve ever seen. Just defies all logic.

[regal valley]

this is the kind of device that gives "software emulation" a bad name

a clone console or fpga recreation usually has no lag (it may have other problems - but less glaring)

[true iris]

I love the PCE version, it is a really faithful port, and IMO more fun than the arcade. It seems more polished, but also I find it heaps easier so maybe that affects my feelings about it hehe

[stiff lotus]

Yeah it’s a fun game

[blazing hatch]

Even easier than the arcade set to easy? I guess that this one of the cases when "3" is the easy setting. "1" is normal, "2" is hard. I don't know if I remember correctly though. It is nice but couldn't hold my attention for too long.

[turbid jetty]

Ai Cho Aniki is not as fun as Cho Aniki

[blazing hatch]

The massive sprite certainly limits yourself. But in terms of weirdness it is the height of the Chou Aniki saga. Your massive hero and its "street fighter moves". And it was a technical marvel for Masaya to pull off on the PC Engine. Better in a more conventional gaming way is certainly part 1.

[turbid jetty]

yeah the constant sonic boom motions was a bit much for me playing with a joystick lever. I can't imagine playing with a dpad. beautiful game but it really felt like the shmup part was an after thought.

[grand moss]

OK, srg320 fixed the Tekipaki ADPCM issue in the latest unstable nightly

#unstable-nightlies message

Can we please test to see if the intermittent freezing/lockup during CD access is still an issue ?

(It's pretty rare, but existed in Tanjou Debut, Patlabor, and Cho Aniki at the least)

[dull socket]

Is the tests of krizz are all green?

[grand moss]

Just looking now

CDD DMA Timing, Er.07
CDD CMD timings, Er.02
CDD Var, Er.01
... But It didn't actually run all of those tests last time:
Last time, it failed on CD DMA2, Er.25, and then hung on CD DMA timings

[grand moss]

OK, it still fails

[turbid jetty]

same observation here. I wasn't watching it closely but i think it failed around 45min of demo looping of Cho Aniki

[dull socket]

Space Ava 201 have wierd sound lately

[grand moss]

Can you create an issue, including:

• sound capture, before and after
• which was the last version before it changed

and how to test/recreate

[dull socket]

I need to check which one is ok before it is broked
The music is just like radio fryer

[grand moss]

Also, that game has several different activated "modes" for different hardware configurations. I'm not sure if sound is affected by this

But you should identify which hardware configuration you are using

[dull socket]

I set arcade card and I have sgx file on the directory

[grand moss]

OK, that means that I can't simulate here

as in, I don't have original hardware to do that

(That requires SGX + RAU-30 + IFU-30 + CDROM + Arcade Card Pro)

While I recently got my CDROMs repaired, I don't have a working RAU-30

(Also not sure about the CDROM ability to read CD-R properly)

If you can run on non-SGX mode, that would be better

[dull socket]

I will try 🙂

[grand moss]

It is possible that it was actually fixed (I'm not sure how many people have played that on original hardware, especially since it was never professionally pressed)

[dull socket]

I found the issue track 02 doesn't have the correct hash regarding my set and reupload it is ok now !