#Rainbow Balance Suggestions

60 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

royal creek
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Rainbow feels too strong right now largely because they all run the AutoSigil engine (along with the same handful of buffers) which:

  • puts out stupid amounts of DAMAGE
  • requires no skill to cycle
  • has almost zero counterplay.

There are a few key cards that, if tuned would pull the whole rainbow engine back into a better state.

I'd recommend the following, but there are some other great suggestions in this post:

  • Tamarin (+16 x 3 triggers ➡️ +12 per trigger, OR remove one or two of the triggers, OR change from until played to 2 turns)
  • Autotune (+18 ➡️ +15)
  • Sigil (+18 ➡️ +16)
  • Bothro (+15 ➡️ +11 and/or album restriction
  • Cao Pi (+20 ➡️ +15 and/or album restriction)
  • Carto-dino (+12 ➡️ +10)
  • SMBH (+3 per non-space ➡️ +2 per non-space OR base power 49 ➡️ 0 )
  • PX (+14 additional for exactly 4 ➡️ +11 additional for exactly 4)

Adding some cycling constraints to AutoTune and/or Bothro and/or Sigil (i.e. if this card is played on first/last turn...) would also benefit because it provides avenues for counterplay that are currently lacking.

In addition, I think the primary deckbuffers (Eros, Autotune, World Turtle, Liberty) should have power outputs relative to how easy it is to build with them.

Currently, the outputs are:

  • Turtle = 224 BUT needs two singles to complete rainbow (healthy)
  • Eros = 240 BUT must be 6/2/2/2/2/2/2 to get max output (healthy)
  • Liberty = 324 BUT only when exactly 3 albums (healthy)
  • Autotune = 324 AND easy to build AND accommodates big combos (yikes)
  • Bothro = 255 AND easy constraint (and it's a limrare 😂) (too strong)
  1. Liberty, Turtle & Eros are healthy due to constraints.
  2. Autotune & Bothro should definitely be nerfed
  3. GLT should ABSOLUTELY be nerfed
  4. The PX 4-space engine is scary strong, and could benefit from a little tap.
quartz mesa
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Like I've said before cao pi and bothrio only need an album restriction because many decks need them not only rainbow

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About the autotune it should be 18
Or nerf it to 16 or 17 but I don't think it is the problem

quartz mesa
royal creek
# quartz mesa You talked about eros so I'll tell you my opinion Eros was meta but when they re...

Yeah, Eros is fine now but partly because Autotune exists. If Autotune gets pulled back to ~250 (which is +14), Eros will be slightly stronger but still less desirable because it doesn't facilitate strong 3-card combos and forces 2 single cards to get max value.

However, it would become the de facto strongest rainbow deck buffer, so would be worth keeping an eye on.

TWT's main problem is that the 4-space PX combo is already super strong, so making TWT too strong makes that space combo a necessity. That's why I'd balance around TWT's relative strength, because you can still build a great rainbow deck with it but it isn't as consistently bonkers as the current Autotune meta.

quartz mesa
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Eros is 240 but it MUST BE 6/2/2/2/2/2/2

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While autotune only needs 6 albums

royal creek
quartz mesa
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In current meta 7 albums is not better than 6 albums(maybe rapunzel but no one use it)

quartz mesa
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But twt only buff 14 power for 16 cards not whole deck

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If cao pi and bothrio have album restriction(suggested before both require 5 albums or less) you can make twt chaos with them

royal creek
# quartz mesa But twt only buff 14 power for 16 cards not whole deck

Yep, that's why I used that card as the base for reference — it's got the lowest power output of the 4 main rainbow deckbuffers with restrictions that force creative building. I think it could even go up to +15 and remain healthy.

And yes, album restrictions for Cao Pi and and Bothrio would work, I just don't think they'll do it for Bothrio given the card's description.

quartz mesa
royal creek
trim creek
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all good changes, I don't really care about power relative to rarity myself but I agree with the changes regardless (also hi hoid, haven't seen you in a while)

royal creek
smoky coral
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I think Cao Pi and Bothro should have both lower power and bigger ask and Carto should get hit just a bit hard
Sigi should take a bigger blow than that, either remove the debuff or spike the power even lower because right now it’s just a better world turtle (since is it really a challenge to run what is considered the best cards?)

somber crown
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as much as i love the rainbow cards as a collector i think the game needs changing and making these card worst will make people have to think and not just be copy cats and use the same 14 cards

royal creek
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Rainbow Balance Suggestions

small gull
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i suggest buff other cards to rainbow level to see Which was the best spamming deck of all time hehehe

royal creek
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@grave skiff thanks for engaging, appreciate it. I'm just moving our chat here to not clog up the Leagues channel further.

The main reason why I believe autotune requires a nerf is because how easy it is to proc all 18 cards, and having the pick of the crop across all albums. As @snow quest pointed out, all other buffers that hit the whole deck:

  • provide less power and or
  • have tighter constraints (e.g. only two albums of 9 cards each, only hit legendaries etc.).

I go into more detail in the first post here, but that is why I think SoL (and most of the other whole-deck buffers) are still healthy, while Autotune needs nerfing.

You mentioned Boxing as an example. I actually think that slightly above that power level is a healthier overall level for the game to slow power creep, which is also why I posited TWT as a good point of reference.

To use a sound engineering analogy, reductive equalisation is almost always better than additive. When you cut away, you create more space for other things to flourish. When you add power, you have to either add more power to everything else to compensate, or risk creating major power spikes like the one we're seeing with Autotune, Bothrio and Golden Lion Tamarin.

grave skiff
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1/ They could lock it like what they did with mammal, increase to 4 is reasonable.
And its a limepic, so decrease buff to 16. Its condition is so easy.
Make it play/return to force them play it, draw effect is so powerful that you dont have to worry abt energy control or cycling
2/ Twt need reverse neft to compare with current archetype. if so, dont increase cao pi condition to 4
3/ You dont need to nerf all good cards, just re contribute it to other archetype. Like Autotune help to gather top 3 cards from 6 albums, while sol limit your option and force you to use normal cards. Thats is problem rn, not op cards (making powercreep cards equal making complanation). Archetype have more buff have to use less op filters, flexible one receive less buff.
Ppl dont complain before because each meta deck have like 4+ buffer that weak and you have to cycle :like high power deck - boxing (boxing, darkweb,...) and writers (pen and its requirements, sappho).
And as above explanation:
High power deck like boxing have more buff and have to use obstacle,
While 9 Space have more op filter and have less buffer. So both deck could counter each other and make variance.

Look at autotune, even limrare like bothrio and argentavis have itself permanent buff.

AND PLEASE CONSIDER ENERGY. 1 deck could dominate in every league is unreasonble.
Boxing or Writer or NM limit itself at high league only because buffer is high energy also.
Ton of buffer at low energy make its self too flexible
Marsupial or festive decks limit itself because it spread buffer among lots of cards and you cant gain power so fast in low - mid league
~2k last turn in mid league is unacceptable in deck have only 4 buffer. no penalty, no limit, just spam. I remember hard time trying to reach 1.5k with astronaut deck in high league, good cycle, hold cards,... Now a noob could do that without thinking in mid league

humble blade
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Hey @royal creek good to see you again 👋

Personally I don't really feel that Autotune itself needs a nerf but definitely agree on Cao Pi and Bothro. Cao Pi especially is so perfect for Autotune, and not really useable with Eros (unless you use 6 history I supposed).

Before Cao Pi was released Eros felt pretty much on a par with Autotune to me. I know it's ~80 power less but it also only costs 2 energy and it synergises well with Renaissance to get +28 power for 6 A&C cards. Tamarin also synergises slightly better with Eros than Autotune as it's easier to avoid having other LoL cards in your hand. This was the deck I was using fairly often to climb in leagues before Cao Pi was released and it was strong but didn't feel quite so oppressive (and I also didn't feel like the meta was so oversaturated with rainbow decks at that point). But since Cao Pi was released I think that has pushed Autotune over the top as the best (and most used) deck.

I think adding at least one more ruler to Cao Pi as a condition would be okay as it would still be usable with WT but WT is the weakest rainbow engine anyway so I don't think that's an issue. Making it 5 feels like it could maybe be too much of a nerf to me.

One idea I had as a nerf to Bothro would be to keep the +power for the collections but also add in that your cards lose -1 power for each album in your deck, so e.g. in a mono deck it would give a net of +14 power, whereas in Rainbow (i.e. 6 albums) it would give a net of +9 power. Although not sure how much that corresponds with the "extremely diverse" ability

royal creek
# grave skiff 1/ They could lock it like what they did with mammal, increase to 4 is reasonabl...
  1. Yeah, that seems to be a consensus. It would push TWT decks back up though in a big way, so I'm still of the opinion that it needs a small power nerf.
  2. Eh, I wouldn't buff TWT (see last point in my previous message). Rather pull the other deck engines back to closer to its level
  3. Not entirely sure I'm following your point there. Would you mind clarifying?

I 100% agree that we should always consider energy — it's why I rate Magna as one of the most powerful cards in the game — but I don't think it has as much bearing about the cards in question.

And yes, the power creep is real. That's why I'd always advocate for nerfs over buffs, and only small buffs if they are necessary.

royal creek
# humble blade Hey <@194536596853358593> good to see you again 👋 Personally I don't really f...

Heeeey, it's my fellow DJ cue_dj CUEChanCool Really glad to see you're still around CUEChanHeart

I can't comment what happened in the meta since I left in 2022 — did Eros decks become huge? Even when I was around they were strong but didn't feel as overwhelmingly predominant as Autotune is now. I've been back for less than a month, and I've heard enough complaints about Autotune and GLT specifically to write this thesis on them 😅

To your points though, I definitely agree that the current meta is a conflation of Cao Pi + Autotune + Bothro being such a stupidly powerful trio, but I maintain that Autotune is overtuned (heh) if you look at the numbers and relative restrictions.

Unless I'm mathing really poorly (which is always a possibility kekw ) it is the strongest rainbow engine by a good 84 points per cycle, as well as the easiest to build around. Trimming it back would make the other engines feel more viable and encourage more creative builds.

And I love your Bothrio nerf idea, feels a lot more like a limrare condition chefkiss

grave skiff
# royal creek 1. Yeah, that seems to be a consensus. It would push TWT decks back up though in...

Yeah i think i have to clarify my suggestion by example. Same like emanny opinion. if you nerf Cao Pi and add +1 ruler in condition. After nerf, you can see:
1/ Flexible one receive less buff: Autotune cant run cao pi or have to make the deck 3/3/3/3/4/2. So

  • 6 cards which may draw first or due to cycle have to be played in important turn will not receive buff.
  • have 1 more weak cards.
    This could help other deck to win in those turn
    2/ Archetype have more buff have to use less op filters: Twt with cao pi will received 14 + 16 (Cao Pi nerf power - should be) > Autotune without Cao Pi (18).
  • Have to run only 4 good subcat: maybe Space/Art/Lol/History + bothrio + 1 more. Will not utilize all op filter like Autotune
    Yeah sth like that
royal creek
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Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying CUEChanHeart

grave skiff
royal creek
humble blade
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Don't think I ever saw people complain about Eros

quartz mesa
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They balanced rainbow really well

tall fable
royal creek
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Just bumping this because in this league, I've faced 7 decks stacked with AutoTune, Sigil, Monkeyboi, Bothrio, SMBH, Golden Goose and various other rainbow buffers, and lost to all of them, despite building a specifically a "ruin legendary cards day" type of deck.

Seriously, it's just too much power to deal with with anything other than... well, another Autotune good stuff deck.

ruby vector
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Issue is, the more this problem goes on, the more people feel forced to turn to Rainbow because they can't win otherwise.

The meta dies if everyone starts playing the same deck every week, and I feel that's starting to happen already

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I'm not smart/awake enough to suggest correct changes, but what I do think should happen is rainbow should be hit HARD. Just so people start to play other things again. Then slowly but surely tune rainbow to a competitive deck that's not overwhelming

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Issue with rainbow, is any good new card that comes out becomes a new toy for the deck. So it only gets stronger and stronger.

brisk lotus
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I think they should tone down pt barnum

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The -20 permanent is annoying

ruby vector
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I think the whole deck should be hit.

PT, Ponzi, Cao...

brisk lotus
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Also funeral bell

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Does more than chronogun

ruby vector
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Thing is, I like Autotune, World Turtle, Statue of Liberty. The idea is clever. Having a certain number from each album. They should exist.

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So it's a problem

brisk lotus
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I dont think those are the problem

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Its the cards that are commonly within those decks

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Because beowulf, vitcon, Time Machine/goatman and dadaism exists, but aren’t meta

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The only ones i agree with nerfing is sigil, carto, and bothro

royal creek
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Yeah, I think Funeral Bell could do with a little trimming too. With Chrono and Antimatter if you aren't careful, you can completely waste their impact. Funeral Bell reeks of the same frustrating "ah just play it wherever you'll be fine" laziness that typifies this meta.

I'm all for strong decks, don't get me wrong. But any strong deck should have limitations — either weak early game, or cycling constraints that require focus and skill, or accessible counterplay. Current top-tier rainbow has none of those limits.

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I mean, I build a deck using Autotune and Sigil focused on debuffing and inflating legendaries (which is the primary makeup of most AutoSigil decks), and I've gone 0/6 on it so far against other Autotune decks).

royal creek
# brisk lotus I dont think those are the problem

As I highlighted above, the main reason I'm calling for an autotune nerf is because it is a) the strongest constraint buffer by a margin, and b) is too strong for how easy it is to build a monster deck around.

If the constraint was more limiting (i.e. 3 cards an album up to a maximum of 6 albums) or the output less powerful (i.e. +15 instead of +18) it would be more in line with the power output of the other similar deck buffers.

royal creek
brisk lotus
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I see

solemn lodge
rain timber
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Hi, I think that the main rainbow deck buffers such as autotune, turtle, Eros, statue, goatman, time machine etc. aren't the main problem because for making them work it's necessary to build a deck in strict way.
But the main problems are cards like Cao Pi, Bothro, Carto, Sigil etc. that don't have a real difficult condition for making them active, so they are also really easy to put in many other decks.
I think also that in this last period cards are becoming more and more stronger and overpowered like the pre-nerf Cogito Ergo Sum, Tamarin, sigil, funeral bell,shinigami, backrooms etc. and all these cards don't need a really difficult condition to be satisfied for being played and active their effects that most part of the time are game changer.

royal creek
quartz mesa
serene zephyr
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Cao Pi - If your deck contains 5 or more Unruly Rulers (instead of 3)
RETURN: If you lost the turn, your Unruly Rulers lose 20 for 2 turns (instead of 3)

Bothriolepis - Give 10 power to all your cards and 10 power to itself permanently (instead of 15) OR you need 17 different collections in your deck instead of 14.

Sigillum Dei - Buff and debuff 15 power (instead of 18)

Golden Lion Tamarin - 15 power instead of 16 - I don't think Tamarin is an unbalanced card. I actually think it's one of the best designed cards in the deck. It's just in the crosshair alongside other Rainbow cards so sure a minor nerf should suffice.