[The Path of Champions] Star Powers & Relics Community Ideas

[slender scaffold]

But Maokai himself isn't deep though.

[merry vault]

r

e

a

d

[slender scaffold]

He "supports" deep, but PoC Maokai isn't designed to "support" deep.

He's more flexible in PoC that he isn't locked behind "supporting" deep or forcing you to roll Naut at all as a reinforcement champ.

[merry vault]

Yes but it doesn't mean he should stop supporting deep

again

[slender scaffold]

The Kill synergy wasn't even meant for Naut.

If I were to design Naut PoC, he's more Deep-focused than Maokai if anything.

[merry vault]

And? Toss was

Maokai does both

why get rid of synergy of one

[slender scaffold]

The thing is, if I were to make Maokai to be able to "support" Naut in terms of Powers, you're pushing Maokai away from all other champions. Which I think is bad.

Of course Maokai and Naut were meant to be the "Toss" package. But look at Senna and 3 Star Veigar. They don't work that well together especially if Senna levels up, your Burst Darkness becomes Fast

Even if they were meant to be the "darkness" package.

[merry vault]

This assumes that every decision devs make is law and always correct
It isn't

[merry vault]

It just doesn't.

[slender scaffold]

oh I know, I just made Maokai to be more flexible on whichever champion reinforcement you choose, less so if you picked Nautilus.

[merry vault]

Which is mildly weird cuz the two are meant to go together

make the copying happen after you're deep

that it

also the deck lacks "beef". All units are frail and cheap.

Add a random chonker in there

Shipwreck Hoarder can be funny

[slender scaffold]

2 star was meant to buff them up, also I was Shipwreck Hoarder is not SI

[merry vault]

After something dies

SI has good chonkers too

Heck

Snapvine

[slender scaffold]

Was considering the likes of maybe Deathless Knight, Ethereal Remitter, Soulgorger.

[merry vault]

George can be neat

[slender scaffold]

Snapvine just ruins your board, I'd rather have the player draft Snapvine if they want them

[merry vault]

Not if you give them maindeck elusive item lol

Or maybe that new perma-deathless dreg with -2 cost item thingy, or the stopwatch

[slender scaffold]

There we go, Soulgorger with a Pickaxe

All of them has to be SI at the very least for a starter deck, unless that changes in the future of course.

[merry vault]

Meanwhile Kench with a health pot

[slender scaffold]

Does he have a health pot?

o_o never noticed that

[merry vault]

Maindeck, yes

[slender scaffold]

oh they do. lol

[merry vault]

Also Pyke has the Shuriman predict lurker

[slender scaffold]

Bilge lacking healing when the deck is all about taking damage.

Interesting point. Maybe.

[merry vault]

In any case I'd also consider treasures cuz they fill the deck, but perhap that's the good idea for Naut instead.

[slender scaffold]

Bilge really lacks the cards to support their own archetype

[merry vault]

Many regions do

[slender scaffold]

If it's Deep related, yeah - definitely going for Naut.

[merry vault]

Kench, Lux, Nasus, Yi are the examples from the top of my head.

aka champs in a "wrong" region

[slender scaffold]

They just need more cards to support them IMO. From their own region preferrably, especially with things heading towards PoC.

[merry vault]

Ye what I meant is that they lack proper support cards. Also Vlad too.

In-region

PoC can help with that thanks to powers and items

at least that's what devs should aim to do instead of giving us whatever dumpsterfire Nasus got

[slender scaffold]

Well, they did ask us for feedback in a reddit thread sometime ago about things we wanted to see changes for PoC. I think the number 1 request was Nasus changes.

second was thieves tools I think

[merry vault]

Saw it, contributed to it too. Made like 2 highly upvoted posts about an entire rework and why he needs it.

I mean rework of his PoC take, not the champ

[slender scaffold]

or at least his 2 star power

[merry vault]

Deck is the worst offender

Illaoi also has a trashy 2*

but the rest is good

For Nasus nothing is good outside of maindeck siphoning strike and quicksand

[slender scaffold]

I think Vulnerable is far too valuable compared to a -1/+0 to a unit each round when the enemies are dropping units left and right.

[merry vault]

For Illaoi not really cuz she OTKs kinda regardless of the enemy board lol, but yes. Nami would be a better example, yet its still somehow better than Nasus' 2*.

[slender scaffold]

oh that yeah, she has OP 1 Star Power and a burst champ spell

[merry vault]

What I'm saying is that there are 3 things that make a PoC champ.

Starting deck
1 and 3 stars
and the 2 star.

For some all 3 are great, some only have 2, and Nasus has none.

all 3 suck

[slender scaffold]

Dan posted something here that's really useful in that regard. One moment.

[merry vault]

the only reason why he's any playable is cuz he's an overall strong champ himself, and has maindeck siphoning strike and quicksand

[slender scaffold]

Sorry if you got pinged, but here's something he wrote back then.

[merry vault]

https://tenor.com/view/dont-reply-ping-reply-ping-reply-discord-reply-discord-gif-22725442

[slender scaffold]

whoops

[merry vault]

Overall I fully agree with Dan here, except Nasus' powers just don't do that lol

like

at all

[past dune]

I didn't design Nasus ;)

[merry vault]

Oh hi Dan, maybe you should have with that philosophy 😅

He really needs help

[past dune]

He's a good dog

bestest boy

[merry vault]

especially cuz Shurima inherently lacks support for him, so powers need to compensate

[merry vault]

YES

GIVE HIM THE LOVE HE DESERVES

Thank you

[past dune]

I'm not at riot anymore

[slender scaffold]

I don't think Dan can handle the single workload of designing all champions for PoC.

[past dune]

go bother brian and tyler ;)

[merry vault]

where is that noctunre emote...

[slender scaffold]

I mean, he would probably love, but the time

I would love to do those if opportunity arises of course.

[past dune]

I'm not sure I even remember what nasus does

[orchid glacier]

Aiyo

[past dune]

glances at powers

hmmmmm

[orchid glacier]

As a former Nasus main myself, I totally know what he does

[merry vault]

I legit don't understand why Rito did this. Laying off peeps like you and Rubin felt so wrong.

[past dune]

Oh, I wasn't laid off

[merry vault]

Oh thank god

[orchid glacier]

Didn't Dan stepped out himself

[past dune]

I got a job offer I couldn't turn down about 2 months before that happened

[orchid glacier]

👀

[past dune]

I'm the director of a really cool new project :)

[orchid glacier]

NICE

[merry vault]

I don't keep track of much on socials so excuse that 😅

[slender scaffold]

Congratulations Dan!

[merry vault]

T H E M M O????

Totally

[past dune]

and I can work on sideprojects now! I'm currently working on a tabletop game too for fun

[merry vault]

👀

[past dune]

basically a mix of Risk and a Deckbuilder

[slender scaffold]

👀 5e-based?

oh

[merry vault]

You're making your own LoR, aren't you

[slender scaffold]

with blackjacks and hookers

[merry vault]

Hirtoric moment of a dev getting dyno'd...

oh boi

[past dune]

If you want to check out a ttrpg I designed though, google "Trail of the Behemoth"

It's on DrivethruRPG :)

[merry vault]

Reminds me of how Hypixel decided to go and make Hytale which is basically a better Minecraft cuz they got tired of its limitations

[past dune]

dyno'd?

[merry vault]

Link got eaten

[past dune]

ah, gotcha. Lol.

[merry vault]

by the bot

[past dune]

was going to link trail of the behemoth :)

[slender scaffold]

oh this looks really interesting. Gives me Monster Hunter vibes, just a constant stream of boss fights. Will share this one to my D&D group.

[past dune]

@slender scaffold Yep, monster hunter meets shadow of the colossus. The goal was to make a ttrpg you could bring to a boardgame night, and one that was actively FUN to DM for.

[merry vault]

Will checc out, but I assume you still have more influence on old co-workers than randos on discord right?

[past dune]

As in, people would want to try playing as the Huntmaster just because it looked fun, even first-time ones

[merry vault]

Tooootally can suggest stuff that'll get implemented

[past dune]

Eric values my opinion a lot, I designed the strategy they're following - constellations were my design originally as well (though it will surely have changed since I handed it off) - but I think a few highly upvoted reddit posts are likely as influential as a ghost of the past

[merry vault]

Wondering if they saw my 100+ upvote threads about Nasus...

Made like 2 months back

[merry vault]

Speaking of that, who did?

[slender scaffold]

I'm sure all of the Nasus posts got seen at some point in the past.

[merry vault]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-meg-griffin-i-just-wanna-talk-to-him-put-that-gun-away-family-guy-gif-14677957

[past dune]

No idea who designed them. Someone on the original TPOC team I expect

[merry vault]

jk jk of course but ALMOST

[past dune]

What's your redesign?

[merry vault]

Holy moly, I can find the Reddit post but honestly his PoC take needs to be rebuilt from ground up cuz the current one is just... dysfunctional in nearly every way. Theme, power, feel, representation, fulfillment of power fantasy, and so on

Glad you're intrigued tho :)

not to mention the bugs

[orchid glacier]

I still think the 2* power is cool but just not executed well

Like minus power is really cool

But Round Start on one specific enemy

[past dune]

I could see a rebuild being useful but it might just be an issue of numbers

[orchid glacier]

Yeah not gonna work

[merry vault]

Can't afford to have something like that when Nasus inherently lacks support in his own region. Star powers need to compensate for it.

[past dune]

like, if the 3rd star power was the 1st star power and the 2nd power gave -10|-0.

[orchid glacier]

OP

[past dune]

does that suddenly make it work? or is the core issue with the build itself

[merry vault]

Core issue, numbers don't matter here

[orchid glacier]

I still think minus power should be the core of Nasus' theme

[past dune]

it's a question of is his playstyle itself fun or if it fundamentally isn't

[orchid glacier]

But just needs it to be better than the current iteration

[past dune]

@orchid glacier it's thematic and works with vulnerable

[merry vault]

Imagine playing someone like Leo or Diana without making all units have daybreak/nightfall, or Gwen without her summoning free hallowed units, or Illaoi without spawning. That's Nasus right now.

Except probably worse.

[past dune]

just because you can't reliably slay units?

[merry vault]

Mainly

Shurima can't value trade

[past dune]

you don't need to value trade, just slay

[merry vault]

how? No SI for that

Siphoning Stirike is the only way

[past dune]

SI could be given through a curated card list (like how Asol gets his champions), but just killing with units works too

[merry vault]

Without SI Nasus plays like a Demacia champ. Ya gotta kill enemies without them killing your units which Shurima is bad at due to low hp stats. SI gives value for either thing dying which is extra good but not required for PoC.

[past dune]

why can't you just trade units?

does that not count as slaying?

[merry vault]

Cuz then round end power is wasted

[past dune]

oh, you mean you need to have 1 unit left on board

[slender scaffold]

I think his deck works fine now currently, he really plays off the Slay and Debuff thematic, but his 2 star doesn't do the "Debuff" part justice tbh.

[merry vault]

In practice it means taking the damage to face cuz you can't swarm and block, and the stuff that sticks around is very frail and prone to enemy removal

[slender scaffold]

or at least I can make his deck work

[merry vault]

You can just throw all your units into enemies, but then 1 and 3* boost has nothing to boost

[past dune]

Yeah, that's one reason I wonder if it's a power level problem.

"+1 Starting Mana. Whenever an enemy is 0 power, slay it instantly. Round Start: Grant all enemies -1|-0. "

[slender scaffold]

👀

I'd love that

not gonna lie.

Like. that shoots up the Power Spike of Debilitating Strike Power and Frostbite.

[merry vault]

Already better but does it solve? Maybe if you roll Ashe support
Harder adventures get really stupid stat numbers

[past dune]

and you could put some "double me" items on the shurima power debuff cards

[merry vault]

Asol's champs are 20-20s, and Omen Hawk at Liss gets +20+0 every round start :D

and VS lots of small stuffs Nasus already wins

[past dune]

Omen hawk is easy to kill, I wouldn't worry about omen hawk

[merry vault]

All his powers are "win more" rather than "support and compensate weakness"

[past dune]

he's just a noob check

[slender scaffold]

Gotta draft the "support and compensate weakness" part, which I think is fine.

[merry vault]

Its not

[past dune]

by "noob check" I don't mean to be insulting, it's a design term I've used for "a challenge that gets much less scary once you know it's coming and how to prepare for it, or avoid it"

[slender scaffold]

A deck doesn't have to be the "entire" package deal IMO. That shuts down flexibility.

[merry vault]

"Oh you can just break any champ with proper rolls" is not an excuse to make base experience miserable

[merry vault]

Ye those exist, although I have seen a funny reddit clip...

[past dune]

This is one of the strengths and weaknesses of nasus' current design. It's hard to draft around it because slaying units happens all the time anyway. But it's also a deck that can draft anytihng.

[past dune]

Don't go to it if it has the double stats + fearsome power if you aren't loaded with answers ;)

[slender scaffold]

tbh, I just need units with QA or a unit/champ with high Health whenever possible. I'm more than willing to spend my rerolls to find one.

[merry vault]

Choosing to go to encounters you can beat is also a skill, so yes :D

[past dune]

If I wanted to make slay units work, my instinct would be to have a power summon units for both players or units for the enemy that I could kill - but in general I might use a more combo-oriented thing. Like "When you slay an enemy with a spell, summon a [big nasus-themed card]." And then include some slay spells in his base deck and give him supported cards for slays.

or a "instantly slay enemies with 0 power" and then another power doubles all his stat decreasing cards or something.

[merry vault]

Looks at Kindred

hmmm

[past dune]

frankly, Nasus' champ spell is also really fun to play - so leaning into that (possibly generate one each turn and reduce its cost if you have one already) would be cool yeah

[merry vault]

Playing Nasus with Counterplan feels like it should be a power

[past dune]

"When you slay an enemy with a spell, grant all copies of that spell 3 random items." Hee hee. Items are funny.

[merry vault]

Legit making Siphoning Strikes is the bonk-gaming that's so fun

[slender scaffold]

Thieves' Tools Intensifies

[merry vault]

"Each round, first unit you play, plays a Siphoning Strike on an enemy"

[past dune]

yeah, Round Start: Create a Siphoning Strike. If you already have one, reduce its cost by 2." Is fun. And then you could give it burst speed on level up, or fast speed, the way nami's champ spell gets upgraded when she gains some levels (not card level, champion level)

[merry vault]

Oh my gawd that's legit worthy of a 3* cuz Siphoning Strike is one of the best cards in PoC in general

Dan why didn't they let you design Nasus xD

[past dune]

I was busy. :)

Actually I designed very few champions myself, champion design was something other designers could do. I mostly had to cover things only I could do.

[merry vault]

Designing Kindred?

[past dune]

I designed only Nami, Thresh, and Aurelion Sol myself. Relics I designed Chemtech Duplicator and Starforged Gauntlets. I think that's literally it.

[slender scaffold]

Laying the foundations for PoC's future I bet that's what he's doing.

[merry vault]

Oooof Thresh...

If I may ask, who's decision was it bring specifically Thresh to PoC?

[past dune]

mine

[slender scaffold]

Hey Dan, was your intention for Thresh's 2 star to abuse Galeforce? shuffling him back into the deck and summoning him at level 2 for 0 Cost to constantly summon another champion?

Cause I can definitely see that was probably the intention.

[past dune]

Thresh's poor initial kit was a tactical move. Some folks believed that champions should be hard to make work, a puzzle, so people would care more about the cards they got during the run and the powers. I was of the opposite opinion, I always believed people wanted their champions to be cool and feel powerful - then only get better during adventures.

So I released Nami and Thresh side by side under two different philosophies

Thresh bombed and people stopped trying to make champions kinda bad

I fixed him before I left :)

[merry vault]

I... Question a lot of decisions there. Especially cuz Thresh's level up is just a +1+1 without another champ in the deck which his powers didn't provide.

[past dune]

@merry vault he was designed to be an incomplete puzzle. You were supposed to solve the "champ in deck" part with support champion or relic

[orchid glacier]

I think old Thresh was fun in the tinkering around the cards part but it was a huge time waster and that made it unfun

Like it's SOOOOOOOOOOOO slow

[merry vault]

But please, never, ever use Thresh's philosophy again
Cuz one thing it succeeded at was tormenting the player 😅

[past dune]

Yes, thresh was a "how the heck do you make this work even?" puzzle before. He could be surprisingly strong but felt like you struggled to make him work instead of struggled to exploit his full potential

[past dune]

Well, I specifically wanted to test the hypothesis that other designers were convinced of and lay it to rest if it didn't work or double down on it if it did - and it didn't work.

Those designers went on to design champions that worked great and are loved. I don't want to say which because I don't want to reveal the folks that originally had the wrong idea, that's partof designed.

I was highly skeptical of the hypothesis. I have always pushed to make champions cooler and exciting.

originally there was a major impulse to make champions pretty generic. you can see that in TPOC 1.0 actually - because back then, design-wise, the Adventure was the star. People wanted the Adventure to be as fun as possible and replayable as possible, so they made the champions as similar as possible

TPOC 1.0 was pretty dang fun but a lot of the champions weren't nearly as unique or thematic as the new ones

As you can see from my designs in general, (Nami, new Thresh, Aurelion Sol, Chemtech Duplicator, Starforged Gauntlets) I like cool stuff :)

Most of my design work though was always in solving unsolved problems, writing out design guidelines on how to make it successful, making a thing or two to prove it could be done and folks would like it, then handing it over to other people to make the content within those structures.

For example, I'm the one that decided that champions have both stars and levels, and that stars should be passive powers that are always on even when champions aren't on the fireld, that levels mostly upgrade cards in your deck, that there are 3 "relic" slots for customization which are unlocked through level ups..

I built the freljord adventure originally because there was skepticism it would be possible to meaningfully challenge highly skilled players who had 3-star champions. I built Chemtech Duplicator to show what an Epic Relic might be like. I built the monthly challenges and the Aurelion Sol reward for them to show what a champion beyond 3 stars might play like and that people could get excited to unlock it.

I pitched the team on constellations and got the funding for it, etc. Lots of system stuff

[merry vault]

My personal take is that PoC champs should all fulfill their power fantasy and crank it up to 11 for the sake of fun cuz this mode is all about wacky fun. Making people think and solve puzzles does not require making inherently suboptimal combination of starting deck and powers, people are spending their hard-earned shards on those, and it never feels good to have someone's fav champ feel terrible just because of a dev's decision.

Challenge is something that should come in the form of adventures, monthlies, weeklies, and so on. Starting champs should all feel good, and not talking power here, talking how it feels to play them and how well do they fulfill their fantasy.

Challenge runs should also be an optional thing for people who want to solve puzzles, by for example letting people choose to play at a lower star/champ level despite having them maxed out.

There are people who have deep passion for each champ and none should ever have to feel bitter about playing them in PoC as a starting champ, is my take.

[past dune]

making and playtesting content is really, really fun, but it's also not as important as figuring out the core systems and design conventions that will impact the game forever after - so I mostly focused on that. Also, no one wants to do system design for the most part and I do what folks don't want to. ;)

[merry vault]

https://tenor.com/view/hero-carefully-he-is-a-hero-fallen-care-gif-27593423

Will it get Dyno'd or no...
https://www.reddit.com/r/PathofChampions/comments/136gj52/please_just_rework_nasus_from_the_ground_up/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

It didn't!

[past dune]

Yeah, I'm a fan of making each champ feel powerful and thematic. it should feel good to unlock them, you shouldn't regret it. In reality though, it's important to be able to accept a broad spectrum of power and viability. Also, no one player should like all the champions. If they do, you aren't making enough different stuff.

[merry vault]

oh I don't mean every champ should be Jinx

[past dune]

yeah, I know, I'm just clarifying

I don't care that Nasus IS bad. I care that he FEELS bad.

[merry vault]

I mean none should be Ornn or Nasus, or old Thresh 👀

Ye power and feel are different and I hope didn't communicate it wrong

[past dune]

We're just clarifying, it's all good.

[merry vault]

in fact, Jinx is a good example of the opposite side of the spectrum. She's so strong she's boring for many :D

[past dune]

A lot of folks don't actually know power and feel are different. Even some designers I've worked with in the past. I often have to teach anyone who comes out of the balance testing or pro gamer world that. :)

[merry vault]

Nasus rn just doesn't feel like Nasus. There is legit a bloodthirsty marauder screaming "Glory for RENEKTON" instead of there being Baccai Reaper instead

I said instead twice

[past dune]

Yeah, this is one of the funny things about Path. There was a big worry early on that champions would get boring to play with after a while if they were too distinct in identity (due to having a samey strategy instead of just vanilla units in their core deck and stuff). I repeatedly pointed out that this was a GOOD thing, because we WANTED folks to get a champ, enjoy it, get bored and desire a new champion.

[merry vault]

Extra funny is the fact that Nasus is an extremely good reinforcement champ for nearly anyone, but his starting version is just... yeah

[past dune]

The Monthly Challenges were created as a reason to "take your Yasuo off the shelf" and similar. And... Like 8 other reasons. It was an immensely efficient design from a goals/system-architecture perspective.

(Yasuo is much better than jinx)

[merry vault]

VS Lissandra yes

[past dune]

I think Yasuo is better in most situations if you aren't speedrunning. For efficient weeklies jinx is better.

[merry vault]

Champ diversity is a very good thing. Its way worse if many would feel "same-y" cuz then people would get bored of the whole game instead of a single champ.

[past dune]

Jinx is also funny. I remember many people telling me repeatedly it was impossible to challenge jinx, that you couldn't go faster than asol without maxing people win on turn 1. And I'm like, "... Ima just give the nexus some more health and increase the enemy stats." And that made her feel way more fair very fast. I was always surprised folks couldn't see that'd work frankly. Dealing 1 damage to stuff is cool but if they all have +3/+3 you need to ping everything 3x just to get back to neutral. AND the enemy has 3 extra atack on each unit too.

[merry vault]

That's a big if cuz PoC is very supportive of stoopid fast strategies if you're going for just straight winning. It's less fun for folks like me who drag out stuff and play control, but there are others who like speedruns.

[merry vault]

There, slap in tough nexus from Liss and Jinx is crying

[past dune]

Couldn't do a tough nexus because it woudl be redundant with lissandra being out and giving the nexus tough.

Also I just felt like it'd be annoying

make it harder to math stuff

[merry vault]

I did specify "from Liss"

:D

[past dune]

oh, gotcha. I thought it meant "in liss" for some reason

[slender scaffold]

Interrupting this conversation for a bit. @astral spire my Draven PoC Concept.

[merry vault]

Also yes this is my old reddit post about Nasus going in depth why current one isn't working and how to solve it. Lil old and I got new ideas since but much relevant still I think.

[merry vault]

I'd play that

Questioning the choice of the can't block unit but pretty neat

but biggest question is...

what if I had 4 axes

[slender scaffold]

tweaking the 2* power it would be "3+: Epic Item"

[merry vault]

DO I GET LEGENDARY ITEMS

[merry vault]

Solved

[slender scaffold]

If Draven does come to PoC, I do hope they play around rewarding his "stack" mechanic via League of Draven passive.

[merry vault]

Maybe, dunno I dun play League

[slender scaffold]

I don't play Draven in LoL. But I do know my ADC gets mad at me if I somehow get the kill while he has like 100+ stacks.

[past dune]

This seems neat. I think it'd be rough to draft around though. I suppose you could go heavy on "when I'm discarded" curated cards but there's only so many of those.

[merry vault]

Can always discard axes

[slender scaffold]

^ or vision or any other card

[merry vault]

ya get one every round at 1*

[past dune]

often the powerset should change the value of cards considered during the draft. it's why I sugested the "when you play a card with 4+ mana cost, create portal" for norra instead of just "create portals automagically"

[slender scaffold]

I wanted to make it so that you only WANT to play Spinning Axe if you think you can get rewarded for it via 2 star.

and not just spam it whenever possible to win trades, since that's like the default already

[past dune]

what I'm saying is that the powers are best when they affect the cards you draft, or at least one of them does

[merry vault]

Also you have in-deck discard synergies, vison and arrel

[past dune]

this is why asol cares about champs and created cards, why nami cares about cheap spells, why volibear cares about titanics

[slender scaffold]

I do think drafting cards for this PoC deck should be more in-line with "will this unit get better if I start giving them items" rather than "is it better to discard this card"

[past dune]

I think most units get better with items, and you'll want to stack them on the same guy you have a lot of copies of in deck

[slender scaffold]

of course, drafting a card that is both "better to discard this one" and "get better items" is always a win.

[merry vault]

Speaking of Asol, in his adventure, why does he create so many random champs instead of making everything about himself like Asol would? :)

What does a space dragon need a big guy with an axe for

[past dune]

I'd look for a powerset that makes me excited to draft certain cards as synergies

[past dune]

You don't have to take the other champs, they're just eager to work for him

and it makes it feel like you're controlling the asol adventure :)

[merry vault]

I mean his adventure, not the starting champ

His encounter specifically

[past dune]

Oh, I believe they're all climbing mt. targon trying to get to him

[merry vault]

Hah, funny, da hail is Caitlyn doing there

[past dune]

I didn't design the asol adventure, I wasn't the lead then.

[slender scaffold]

Hm.. good point, but that's really hard to think without losing the champion's identity. I wanted to put the "discard" focus on a Sion or Rumble deck.

[past dune]

It is very hard. Hardest part of tpoc champ design frankly

not 100% necessary but most of the most popular champs do it

Maybe something that cares about allies striking, or a way to summon draven and then let him do a whole bunch of draven stuff.

or it could be something about stat increases, or just benefits for playing lots of cards in a turn

[slender scaffold]

Actually, now that I think about it - drafting cards that can generate other cards is much better than drafting discard-oriented cards. and there's more of those I think.

Was thinking of putting Draven's Biggest Fan in the deck. But that's too obvious and sorta loses their value at level 20 or so.

[past dune]

well kinda, if I draft a card that generates a card I don't want to play I feel bad about discarding it still. We're looking for feel-good card synergies. And it's hard for a player to feel good about discarding a card unless it's like... the bot's fleeting spell or a card that specifically likes being discarded.

[slender scaffold]

I could always stuff that Sion unit that gets summoned on discard but that would step on Sion's territory.

I was trying to hit hte feeling for Draven is, "how willing are you to take the risk (discard and kill an enemy) to get the reward?"

[past dune]

"When you discard a unit that costs 2 or less, summon it."

[merry vault]

Personally if I got to vote, I'd re-flavor the entire Asol adventure as Bandle adventure, and replace the last boss to be Norra for example by just changing the deck. Randomly stumbling upon champs and fighting them feels like hopping through Bandle portals and even timelines. It feels appropriate for Norra to use portals and spawn in oversized axe-swinging Darius, while what does Asol need him for?

This gives space to re-create Targon adventure as an actual flavorful ultimate big quest with Asol himself in the center.

[merry vault]

just my lil dream...

Especially with how flavorful Liss is

[slender scaffold]

When the space-god-dragon got replaced by a lost yordle.

[merry vault]

Remember that several champs share identities. Discarding is something Draven, Jinx, Rumble, and Sion like. They all can have discard units and synergies, just a tad different.

[past dune]

**Draven's Fans: **When you discard a unit that costs 2 or less, summon it."
Arrogant Laughter: +1 Starting Mana. When you target an ally with a spell, grant it +2|+2.
Draven's Biggest Fans: When you discard a unit that costs 3 or less, summon it."

[slender scaffold]

I know, but at the same time - one leans much better than the other and makes them much more distinct than the other.

[slender scaffold]

This feels like it would do better on a Sion PoC deck (minus the 2 star power). Since Sion is all about discarding, more so than Draven tbh.

[past dune]

It might work well on scion, but these powers are all about spinning axes for example.

[merry vault]

Hmmm, certainly fun but I'd look for a way to make Draven himself the biggest star that he always is/wants to be. Perhap swap it around, make the 2* summon stuff when discarding, and the 1* is a boost to targetted allies, but if its Draven, he gets something extra.

[past dune]

@merry vault Draven IS a 3-cost unit. He's his own biggest fan :)

[slender scaffold]

Good point. Maybe I shouldn't make Spinning Axes the main focus for the power I guess.

goes back to the drawing board

[merry vault]

I mean, spinning axes are very Draven

[slender scaffold]

They are, honestly, but the focus was more on the "Spinning Axe" itself than the discard aspect of the card.

[merry vault]

is that a problem tho?

[past dune]

we usually only generate cards with a star power if:
A. We need to ensure people have reliable access to a specific effect even if they dilute their deck with cards during the draft. Example: Veigar.
B. We don't have any need for another power at all so eh, why not? Give em something thematic I guess (this is usually a fail case).

[slender scaffold]

Sure it would feel great to get some benefit discarding a card when you play Spinning Axe, but I think it would be a better benefit to kill enemies with multiple Spinning Axes, especially if you can kill multiple units with a single unit while they have 3+ Spinning Axes (a.k.a strike cards or draven's champ spell)

[past dune]

The main problem is that the star powers should be a "Draft-around" incentive. My version may or not play better in a vacuum, I have no idea - rapid unit summoning at burst speed is probably a huge balancing question mark - but mine is an example of something that says "I allow your spinning axes, which you'll definitely get access to, to be good with a certain type of card".

it makes it feel better to discard other cards, and changes the draft

[merry vault]

"Attack: Each attacker plays Whirling Death on their blocker, if there's none, give them double attack this round"

random idea xD

[past dune]

instead of "here's more ways to discard" I want to switch it to, "here's how to make discard do more cool stuff for you! Now, use that cool stuff to draft some neat synergies."

[merry vault]

Yes it is a huge balancing question mark that'd be hella fun in PoC. Personally I'd love that.

[past dune]

"Catch it on the Rebound: When you discard a card, return it to your hand and reduce its cost by 1."

[slender scaffold]

👀 bruh

That sounds better

[past dune]

yeah, I always like to start WTF that looks awesome and is probably too much before playtesting.

[merry vault]

"CREATE A COPY OF"

Viktor synergy thank you

[past dune]

Just an example of "Increase the payoff of what the champ is already doing"

Star 1: When you discard a card, return it to your hand and reduce its cost by 1.
Star 2: +1 Starting Draven. Yes you start with Draven in play.
Star 3: When you discard a card, return it to your hand and reduce its cost by 2.

[merry vault]

Love the e

gonna play so many e its insane

darn you edited it

[slender scaffold]

Though I think creating a copy of it rather than returning it (I'm not sure if LoR can handle that coding yet? Maybe). Concept-wise, there's not much benefit when it comes to "Return" that isn't a Recall. Creating a copy instead plays on a lot of other Powers and the Augment keyword.

[merry vault]

The only thing I'm concerned about are hand space issues with how many axes level 2 draven makes

[past dune]

It's cool synergy, but I found it was wordy and felt less thematic at a glance. I care a lot about powers reading good. As Asol demonstrates

[merry vault]

Maybe making a fleeting copy?

[past dune]

I didn't try hard though

[past dune]

Hand space issues are definitely a problem. I'm not sure how much of a problem though because the plan is to play the cards you're discounting

[slender scaffold]

Try Harder jokes aside. That would make a really good power (not just for Draven), but any Discard-oriented Champion.

[past dune]

I'd playtest it as is and see how big an issue the hand problems are

[past dune]

Yeah. And draven's axes come back

[slender scaffold]

You can just switch up the Star 2 Power and it can play on Rumble and Sion even

[past dune]

So I figured it was funny

[merry vault]

ye tha's something that needs playtesting

[past dune]

nothing can be worse than Norra's first playtest

[slender scaffold]

oh just realized.

[past dune]

she clogged the board and hand so much

lol

[slender scaffold]

Yeah, it should be fleeting. Other wise you're gonna brick your hand with the discarded cards.

[merry vault]

Lemme guess she made portals for free as 1 and 3*

[past dune]

I forget.

she was made a LONG time ago

[merry vault]

On an unrelated note, Dan do ya know anything cool about Hytale's development? 👀

[past dune]

Yes

But can't share

[slender scaffold]

gonna brb. thanks for the convos ❤️

[past dune]

I should too. Still need to do actual work on my current game :)

[merry vault]

All I wanna know if its going forward/the state of how well its going

[past dune]

might need playtesters at some point, though they'd have to own tabletop simulator

[past dune]

everything under NDA is NDA

[merry vault]

That much everything

Ok

welp

The fact that you know something is already telling more than nothing, so ty

[past dune]

Lol, okay :)

[merry vault]

and ye much thank for convo, so nice to talk to a dev like that, is an honor 🙏

[past dune]

my pleasure. Thanks for playing our game. Still feels like "our" to me. :)

[merry vault]

also read my post and throw it at the rest of the devs

[past dune]

Eric and Brian I know for sure both read Reddit posts

if you post it again, possibly with some updates, they likely will read it. And if they know it's coming from players with no mention to me, it often feels extra-authentic. I used links to player-created reddit posts to augment my own points often (see? the players want this too!)

[merry vault]

This one is from 10 months ago so I'll prolly re-write it for the third time

first one was months before that

[merry vault]

good to know, much ty x)

[orchid glacier]

Aww damn it ended?

Anyone wanna gimme a champ to design

[round bluff]

Kayle

[orchid glacier]

OK

[orchid glacier]

I have no idea what am I doing @round bluff

[orchid glacier]

I just realized there's a wording error for the 3* power but I'll fix it later

[orchid glacier]

Fixed

[slender scaffold]

give me a champ

or three

so I can do something in my spare time

[orchid glacier]

Same here

Um

Zed, Lulu, Sivir?

[slender scaffold]

Go do uhm: Sejuani, Ahri, Kalista

[orchid glacier]

Bet

[orchid glacier]

Ahri done. Ezpz IMO

[slender scaffold]

Also done with Zed!

[restive swallow]

the citrus courrier

[orchid glacier]

When you are doing minus stats, make sure all the symbols are minus

[orchid glacier]

Also

Bingwen

Is an instant cut LOL

A huge deadweight that does literally zero stuffs

"So you are saying I need to spend 5 mana playing this dude then spend another 3 mana playing Zed in the same round?"

I fixed some wordings of all Ahri star powers

[orchid glacier]

Okay
Kalista is difficult
This is all I could think of

[slender scaffold]

na-uh, he can copy other units but yeah, it depends if you wanna use him or not though.

[slender scaffold]

Ahri looks actually fine. A lot of recalls, and that's pretty much it. I think you can swap out some of them for some other cards, maybe like twin discipline or other stuff.

[slender scaffold]

Why Onslaught of Shadows and not Haunted Relic? - deck-wise, I think it's okay. I'm unsure about the powers, I mean it can work and all.

[orchid glacier]

But you are spending 5 mana on him

If you wanna copy another unit, then you must have at least 6 mana for copying a 1-cost

7 mana for a 2-cost

8 mana for a 3-cost

Remember, he only copies a unit that is played the same round as when you played him

So that means he won't copy units summoned through other methods like Zed Attack effect

This means you're making Zed a late game champ

But Zed's whole play style is ending games through near OTK

It's honestly not worth putting Bingwen in his deck

[orchid glacier]

It's a bit based on her 1.0 deck

[orchid glacier]

Too OP

[slender scaffold]

oh I know, but Bingwen still has potential though

Imagine playing Bingwen and a Poro Fluft on a high cost unit

[orchid glacier]

Why spend 5 mana on a unit in a near OTK deck

[slender scaffold]

also, a cut target of course.

[slender scaffold]

because I doubt you can always OTK with Zed.

Maybe, but not always.

[orchid glacier]

If you want a cut target, at least put someone that is actually playable

Bingwen is useless without mana refill IMO

[slender scaffold]

Bingwen is playable in PoC

[orchid glacier]

Never said it's unplayable

[slender scaffold]

I've played him outside of Sett in a draft at some point. Got two Ledros out with Poro Fluft

[orchid glacier]

That's just high rolling

[slender scaffold]

Bingwen offers some crazy plays if you DO manage to play another card after him, and maybe even a double Zed if you just feel silly.

[slender scaffold]

Everything is high rolling

[orchid glacier]

...

[slender scaffold]

I swear, he's playable despite what you think. I know giving him like a Nomad's Medallion to cut his cost to 3 would be better, but then he's just an enabler, he stops being useful once you play something else after him.

[orchid glacier]

That's not it

Okay. Whatever. It's your deck

[slender scaffold]

Having something that doesn't always mesh well with the rest deck is something okay. It doesn't have to be a perfect puzzle.

[orchid glacier]

I never said it has to be perfect?

[slender scaffold]

but this statement

[orchid glacier]

But does it have to be perfect?

[slender scaffold]

Already implies Bingwen is unplayable and not even worth to be a cut target of the deck.

but yeah, I always feel iffy if the deck feels too smooth in PoC. Probably just me.

Throw a curveball!

[orchid glacier]

To me, he is unplayable in this deck, that's for sure. But that's definitely not the point I'm trying to deliver

It's just that you don't have to go through ridiculous length just to mess something up

It's like putting Arrel in Samira deck

Back then

She became unplayable with the Samira changes and was forced to changed into Indari

[slender scaffold]

^ this. The moment majority of the spells losing their ability to target a unit, Arrel deserved to be removed.

but, I don't think it's that ridiculous to put Bingwen in a deck that is spammy in nature. What other card would you suggest to replace him them?

[orchid glacier]

Oh IDK. Why don't you

Go search up his 1.0 deck and find inspiration?

[slender scaffold]

oh I did looked up his stuff. The things I've cut out from his decks were Inspiring Mentor, Keeper of Masks, and Twin Disciplines

[orchid glacier]

Fair to cut the first two but Twin Discipline?

[slender scaffold]

I swapped Twin Discipline with Death Mark.

[orchid glacier]

I don't wanna bother but I'll still put this

[orchid glacier]

Expensive and gimmicky. Trying to think of things that helps but IDK

[slender scaffold]

now this looks better despite not having the cards you'd expect from a Sejuani deck.

[orchid glacier]

There's just so much

So I went

And burnt the kitchen

[slender scaffold]

As long as there's 0 casualties.

You're cooking

[orchid glacier]

Kekw

TBH the Plunder effect shouldn't even exist

It was a "The Scargrounds with Haunting Tomb/Heroes' Reward attached to it"

Couldn't decide which item

But uh scrap that lol

[slender scaffold]

I think the power feels very thematic, vulnerable included and it meshes well with heavy units

[orchid glacier]

Ya

But might be difficult without cheap units

[slender scaffold]

Also the fact that they lack sustain and has to go all in is something really cool.

[orchid glacier]

There's no such thing as sustain in a deck where everyone wants a scar

[slender scaffold]

Still working on that Lulu and the other champ you mentioned that I've forgot.

[orchid glacier]

Sivir I think

[slender scaffold]

oh yeah, Sivir.

I might actually just start with Sivir cause she looks good.

[orchid glacier]

I honestly didn't like Sivir

She feels boring

"Yes gimme all your gold (keywords) and lemme ADC"

[slender scaffold]

Honestly, I'm not sure how things will work if I went and made a Gold-based champion.

and I wanted Sivir to be that

make her core items like BHR

[orchid glacier]

And The Collector

[slender scaffold]

mhm

unsure how strong that would be

that''ll have to wait until tonight though

[orchid glacier]

Meanwhile

I'm itching to make custom champs myself by drawing shit from other series

Then incorporate PoC stuffs but uh

That also means a lot of other custom cards

Gib champ BTW

[orchid glacier]

It was supposed to be an item and then I realized

No I did not make it an item-like

Hmm

[slender scaffold]

@orchid glacier shameless ping

The rarer Lucky Finds, dubbed "Lucky Find +" can grant the following: Barrier, Brash, Deathless, Double Attack, Elusive, Fated, Impact, Regeneration, +2/+2, +3/+1, and +1/+3.

sample

Toned down Loaded Target down from "Grant" to "Give" when targeting an ally.

[slender scaffold]

Lulu set

[past dune]

Pretty nice power design. First star power gives you a cool toy to help you level up the champion even if your deck gets diluted with non-support cards, is very thematic, and at 3rd star naturally gives you a free blocker each turn which is neat. Not the most exciting third star power at a read but very useful and simple.

The second star power has a very good idea "Make your supports better". It's doing it in a pretty complicated way right now though. It might also be good for it to care about stat increases in general rather than supports specifically, in order to open up more drafting synergies.

[slender scaffold]

The 1 and 3 star powers were from PoC 1.0 tbh.

In terms of 2 star power, I really wanted a way to make it so that Lulu doesn't get overshadowed as your units get stronger while she's stuck at growing units to 5/5. Though the card she generates each round is really good.

I feel that making the 2 star power turn into a stat increase from any source, it'll disrupt or potentially overshadow lulu's supports identity/niche.

Hey Dan, quick question since I wanted to work on a concept of Sivir whose Star Powers revolve around getting rerolls and gold in general (so that her core relics are the likes of Bounty Hunter, Collector, etc) and that upgrading her units in the shop is more potent. Do you think that would be a good idea? Stars powers affecting something that is entirely outside of the "game-game"

[orchid glacier]

Ngl

It looks great

But I would swap Grappling Hook with Boomerang Blade

Aight I wanna do the Arcane champs later

[orchid glacier]

Fixed the wording of the item effect for Zhonya's Paradox

Based on this spell

[orchid glacier]

Bringing back 2 old powers from LoL
But they are slightly (or massively?) buffed

[orchid glacier]

Bringing back Jayce, but refined for 2.0

[round bluff]

@orchid glacier minor grammar, shoudl be when u summon

[slender scaffold]

Skill Issue

[orchid glacier]

Lazy now

🫠

[timber mortar]

Honestly this could be a rare if it was a play effect also it would allow to just say "play servitufe of desolation"

[timber mortar]

I really dislike 1.0 jayce powrrs

This said, i dont think this deck would work as you expect it

[timber mortar]

Not dan, but is already confirmed that soon^tm bounty hunter will be changed

[slender scaffold]

Were there any info on the plans? or just that it will be changed?

[timber mortar]

A rioter commented that like

Half a year ago

I think it was brian

On reddit

It was... i think ay the time of the refocus announcement

[slender scaffold]

Interesting, wondering what will happen to it afterwards

I made this old forgotten champion. Hope he finds a home in PoC

[timber mortar]

Thats insanely bad

Imo, obviusly

Like it sounds fun and strong as hell

But put it on adventures like lissandra and it will suck so much.

The 2 star is basically the issue, everything is built around it and is a high hit or miss

Again, sounds strong as hell when it works, but to have either no interaction or full interaction is very hit or miss

The deck is very interesting, but feels like they are 2 different concepts, imho

Anyway, good job making something that at least seems cool, takes some time

[slender scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/bilei-cat-bileilike-likebilei-gif-19253394

[timber mortar]

Still gj, the deck and 1 and 3 seems fun

It was mainly aimed at the 2 star, sorry for the lack of explanation

[slender scaffold]

the 2 star was actually meant to help how weak Fearsome is.

Unlike Brash, you can chip down an enemy Health until they can't block you. Fearsome has no way of doing that unless you play specific cards to lower the enemy's Power or having cards (like Nocturne) do it for you constantly.

I would also say though, using Lissandra as a comparison for any concept is probably bad. No amount of design (outside of A.Sol and other broken champions) can compete with Lissandra unless you highroll.

[orchid glacier]

So

There's a problem

I wanna make a deck for Caitlyn

But it doesn't load PoC exclusive cards

So I can't add that 1-cost Flashbomb planting follower through their way

[timber mortar]

You can add it as personalized card

This said

I will send this to the dev

Done

[orchid glacier]

I hate this so much

(They are placed behind Caitlyn)

[slender scaffold]

ooh I miss Caitlyn in PoC - and running her with Enfeebling Strike to just remove the enemy's Power

[timber mortar]

?

[timber mortar]

Yeh i do get that, but i dont know if thats the answer

Maybe just giving enfeebling strike

[timber mortar]

My point was that the only decks that can actually block you are asol, lissandra and above, most fights in 3 stars cant block that fast enough, worst if you go lower

And thats a 2 star power

Basically is like nami levels but removing any enemy interaction

Game becomes a "do i kill them before they kill me" and players has like 2 choices

Block

Not block

Even stronger if you add the fact that there is heal incorporated to deck

To do a more clear criticism on how mucj fights it would make a joke of i would have to check every single fight, so i wont, specislly not rn, but really, a very hit or miss

Even if it doesnt make a joke of every fight, being a cakewalk on some adventures and pain in others to that extreme is a lot, imho

[slender scaffold]

It does remove interaction in a way that you need to invest on (a.k.a: Increasing Power). Similar to just simply equipping LeBlanc with Stalkers or GB. It's a requirement you want to fulfill in order to become your win condition.

What's your take @orchid glacier ?

[orchid glacier]

Supposedly it's arranged in ascending order by the card's cost but the two cards I added are arranged behind Caitlyn

And while I don't mind Double Agent being so since he and Caitlyn are of same cost

House Whump was squeezed in between them

[orchid glacier]

I'm bad with that so IDK

[slender scaffold]

[orchid glacier]

But I stand with thematic > convenience > whatever goes here I guess

OFC don't be too weak

[orchid glacier]

A bit stuck with her 2* power but uh yeah let's go with this

@slender scaffold I may have accidentally made a very OP House Whump

Oh

Shit

Typo

Fixed (the words 'ignore' and 'their')

[slender scaffold]

not quite OP tbh. What's OP is Spirit Stone + Shadow Totem

[orchid glacier]

No actually

I actually made a mistake

3* power add the Flahbomb item to everyone
House Whump with Shadow Totem + innate Flashbomb item

Can you imagine how many Flashbomb Traps just from playing it alone

4 + 8 + 8

20 Flashbomb Traps

[slender scaffold]

2 Star feels loaded and/or confusing. What's even the condition of creating Advanced Intel? when it hits a tough/barrier unit? or when flashbomb traps activate in general?

[orchid glacier]

Activate in general

Like Teemo's 2*

[slender scaffold]

Yeah, I think the power spike of flashbombs dealing 2 damage and ignoring tough/barrier is strong enough. I don't think you'll need Advanced Intel anymore.

[orchid glacier]

Fair

But I wanna do funny stuffs

Also helps with Ambush

But yeah I have Double Agent

And the Prank item on the peddler

[slender scaffold]

Only 3 cards in Caitlyn's deck doesn't generate Flashbomb traps outside of the star powers.

Other than that, I think that's okay. Although the star powers makes it a very aggressive deck since the condition is strike

[orchid glacier]

I just took enemy Caitlyn's common mutation

And bumped it up

And playing Caitlyn does feel like aggro

[slender scaffold]

It's actually a stronger version, since your's is "Strike" while the Boss Caitlyn is "Nexus Strike", and PoC 1.0 Caitlyn has "Round Start"

[orchid glacier]

Yeah

Hence, "bumped it up"

[slender scaffold]

more like you shot it through the roof.

with malicious intent

[orchid glacier]

I love Cait so I wanna make her busted because Flashbomb Traps are kinda shit on its own

But I think I might have put it on overdrive

[slender scaffold]

It's pretty strong NGL. Coupled with Enfeebling Strike, you'll have an enemy board with 0 Power/Dead

[orchid glacier]

Also IDK how to word something like "when it hits enemy with Barriers, remove it then deal DMG" without making the text on her 2* power way too long

[slender scaffold]

Why not uhm... "The first time an enemy strikes the enemy nexus, plant a number of Flashbomb Traps equal to the damage"

[orchid glacier]

Nah

I like mine more

[slender scaffold]

"Your Flashbomb Traps ignores Barrier and Tough." - I think that's self-explanatory by itself.

Or maybe... "Your Traps deals 1 more damage and ignores Barrier and Tough."

So maybe if you draft Teemo... for some fking reason, it will deal 2 nexus damage per shroom and ignores Liss's nexus tough

[orchid glacier]

Nah I want this to be Caitlyn only

Fuck Yordles

[slender scaffold]

It'll achieve the same purpose though, just that it becomes extra powerful with Teemo. But yeah, either one works.

[orchid glacier]

XD

Anyway, one more to go: Viktor

But I will do his at night

Actually I almost forgot about Heimer maybe I'll do Heimer?

Nerfed the power so it becomes more balanced

[slender scaffold]

Doing Seraphine atm 🎤

[orchid glacier]

Shit

I should be the one doing hers (she's my main in WR)

Make her good okay

[slender scaffold]

No.

[orchid glacier]

Understandable

TBH she has an Epic relic that makes her go boom so I think she would be fine with anything

[orchid glacier]

I understand nothing of that other than the Mastery

[slender scaffold]

It means I play her a lot too

[orchid glacier]

Averagely

How many matches to reach Lv.7

[slender scaffold]

Depends on how well you perform really.

[orchid glacier]

Because in WR, I think I played like 200+ matches with Sera and she's STILL not Mastery 7

[slender scaffold]

If you're really good, you can get her in a week of casual gaming.

[orchid glacier]

Damn

So I have skill issue

[slender scaffold]

Also, just get kills an don't die.

Support items sucks on Sera

she has more value as a full-blown mage.

[orchid glacier]

Can't say the same for WR Sera

But uh

I quit for like more than a year

Surely she's different now

[slender scaffold]

She's pretty muich the same AFAIK. Only the items has changed drastically, so if WR is following. AP Burst mages are really strong in general.

[orchid glacier]

True

IDK if I should go back to WR

[slender scaffold]

Here we go.

[orchid glacier]

So fast

[slender scaffold]

I was doing her for an hour earlier, I was also busy playing DbD half-way through it

[orchid glacier]

I honestly think Inspired Plans should have Farsight

But I think this is fine

Also Trail of Evidence, but not Encore?

[slender scaffold]

not Encore

[orchid glacier]

And Fanclub President with Crystal Carrier
Crystal Carrier on a 5-cost

[slender scaffold]

So it has value outside of just playing her.

Though putting it on a 5-drop means you need to drop her immediately to speed up to 10.

[orchid glacier]

Hmm shouldn't ramping starts with cheap units

Also I think your 1* and 3* powers are

Uh

Has wording problems?

[slender scaffold]

is there? lemme check

[orchid glacier]

"The first two units you play each round,"

[slender scaffold]

yep, it works as intended.

[orchid glacier]

This triggers my English teacher heart

[slender scaffold]

How should it be worded?

[orchid glacier]

"The first time you played two units each round"

I mean I totally understand how it works but damn

[slender scaffold]

Well, you see that part means you get to Manifest only after playing two units.

What I was trying to do was that the first two units you play, you get to manifest for each one of them.

Although I'm not sure how I could word that better

in short, play 1st unit, manifest. play 2nd unit, manifest again. wait till next round to do it again.

[raw pivot]

Minor name change suggestion: Strategic Infiltration (coz Pokemon has Infiltrator ability which ignores protect)

[orchid glacier]

OK

[orchid glacier]

Hmm

"The first time you would play two units each round, Manifest a new spell for each of them you played with the same cost. Reduce their cost by 2/4 and grant them Fleeting"?

M-maybe?

[slender scaffold]

still reads off that you manifest only after you played two units.

"The first and second unit you play each rpund, Manifest..."

[orchid glacier]

I think

"The first time you played the first and second unit each round"

[slender scaffold]

first time =/= "first" already sounds bad.

[orchid glacier]

Aha

[slender scaffold]

I think as long as the intentions are there, it should be fine. It'll never get implemented into the real game anyway

[orchid glacier]

"When you played the first and second unit each round"

There

I FINALLY GOT SMTH

[slender scaffold]

"When you play your first and second unit each round, Manifest..."still sounds a bit off tbh. But meh, we know how it works, no use fixing it anyway

[orchid glacier]

Me spending time on that shit cuz' of the grammatical error

[slender scaffold]

English is a mysterious creature.

[orchid glacier]

*language

[slender scaffold]

You know what I mean.

[orchid glacier]

I do

[timber mortar]

maybe its because its the path mode? prioritizing champs? I know lor sometimes pirotirizes champs too in order

[timber mortar]

Yeh i dont see that sorry, le blanc at least requires you to level the champ, and doesnt even remove blockers, damages them, only removes via stun, and is limited to 3

And le blanc only buffs one of her units +3|+2 at 3 stars

[slender scaffold]

LeBlanc has free buffs, Noc has none outside of deck upgrades. LeBlanc needs to deal 15 damage to level, not that hard considering the star power. You should look harder

Like sure, you can attack uncontested, but that doesn't mean the enemy unit's are gone.

It's not like Ashe's level 2 frostbite where they literally can't block.

[timber mortar]

each flashbomb does +1 more or flashbombs do +1 when activated?

[slender scaffold]

or Leb's board clear

[timber mortar]

honestly i would even let it at "when you damage an enemy with flasbombs, they take 1 more damage"

[slender scaffold]

That's already what it does though? in short. Flashbombs deals 2 damage on the 2 star power.

[timber mortar]

What i meant is, all the other fluft is not really needed

yes it makes it stronger

but the +1 damage already counters tough, being weak to barriers is not... a weakness in path

specially not for flashbombs, there isnt many decks that just have that much barries

A thing i personally value a lot is doing a lot with little to no text

Like, for example, the 1 and 3 star powers you did for nocturne, are very on the nose

you get what they do, you understand why they do it, you get the appeal

If 1 line does 90% and the other 3 lines do a 10% that is not even that needed, maybe just the 1 line is the way

[orchid glacier]

Each Flashbomb +1

[timber mortar]

Yeh thats insanely strong

I can see it happening, ngl, but it would be insanely strong

[orchid glacier]

Would be shit if otherwise

I don't make boring stuffs. I make things that never made sense

[timber mortar]

Ashe level 2 requires ashe to be on board, to frostbite the entire enmy board, to have frostbiten every single enemy, and her deck is overall low on stats

If you didn't vfrostbite just 1 unit you already are in danger of losing your ashe

[slender scaffold]

Alpha Wildclaw, Rimefang Wolf, Avarosan Trapper + Yeti, +1/+1 on frostbite kills.

I doubt her deck is low on stats.

and easy access to Frostbite

I don't see the arguement of Noc's 2 star being that powerful. If you managed to get a Fearsome unit to like 10 Power, you should be rewarded for it. You don't have Overwhelm, Quick Attack or any other OP Keywords.

[timber mortar]

sure, the strongest of those units has 6 damage, ths sentinel has 4 damage and the 1 cost has 6 damage blockable only by a 6 damage unit

i.e. only liss can block something that big

[timber mortar]

i agree you can be rewarded by stuff, i think you are under estimating how strong "i cant be blocked" is as a concept

It means precisely that you dont need to care about quick attack, about overwelm, about resisting damage, about regeneration, about challenger

[slender scaffold]

I know how strong it can be, that's why I made it, with the condition that you can't be blocked by enemies with less Powers than your's.

[timber mortar]

the only thing that has that in path is literally lvl 2 eddie

[slender scaffold]

Why don't you think of a way to make "Fearsome" better outside of just stat buffs though

[timber mortar]

Im telling you why i personally think is too strong, and that i like the other stuff you did, i don't care about nocturne

If you dislike my feedback you can just ignroe it

Like rhurt does

[slender scaffold]

I've tinkered with other stuff like

• "The enemy needs to have 4 Power to block your Fearsome units".
• "Round Start: Curse the weakest enemy with Terror."
• "Round Start: Grant enemies -1/-0."

[timber mortar]

Is hard to make fearsome good on path, probably damage reductions is the way to go

[slender scaffold]

They are simple and can get the job done, but doesn't fulfill the power fantasy I wanted for Nocturne of "big scary units"

[timber mortar]

you could probably go for the shadow isles side a bit more

playing with reviving units, killing them, some shit of that

noc sinergizes with summoning because he is on SI

[slender scaffold]

That's pretty bad, since you'll start diluting and mixing up Noc's deck identity.

I mean it is possible, but I think other champions should do that better. Per say, reviving units would fall under Kalista, killing units would be Hecarim and the likes

[timber mortar]

Maybe something like the nightfall bullshit of creating an ephemeral copie, idk, its obviusly hard, that doesn't mean the strong solution is the answer

similarly to how even if devs believe that giving norra const 6 the ability to summon champs, it has to be the right call

Imho, is the most boring call someone can make, wow, lvl 2 champions, never has been done to make something stronger

[slender scaffold]

people has their own design philosophies.

[timber mortar]

Yeh

I could see that power as a 6 star, for example

it would be great

[slender scaffold]

meh, it'll never get implemented anyway nor will the devs look here. They can't.

[timber mortar]

I find theorycrafting fun, but yeh, devs wont give a shit

[slender scaffold]

It's not that they don't give a shit. They literally can't. Contractual reasons.

[timber mortar]

they do check many of this places, and love to see this kind of stuff, but is not like is our reponsability to make balanced shit

[timber mortar]

idk what you mean but sure

[slender scaffold]

AFAIK, they're legally not allowed to look at fan-made content such as custom cards and the likes.

that might have changed with the new team, but that's what I know back then.

[timber mortar]

yeh i wouldnt be so sure of that, but maybe idk

[slender scaffold]

I'm already saying what I was told from a former dev

[raw pivot]

Rhurt should just prepare a drive of all the fanmade concepts then submit it to reddit lol

[timber mortar]

I guess dan was saying this, then i guess that they only take it IF they explicitly ask for it

[slender scaffold]

It's more like if they have projects that is very close or too similar to a fanart. It's a way to avoid legality. I doubt they'll ever ask for someone's concepts. The closest thing we got was the community kitchen.

[merry vault]

Pretty sure someone made a concept card for Soul Cleave way before it was released. It had similar art, exact same name, and basically the same effect, except it was 5 mana and summoned exact copies.

Rito pretended they didn't see that

[orchid glacier]

I don't use Reddit though

[orchid glacier]

How am I supposed to make Heimer smh

[slender scaffold]

ooh, I like the addition of Chempunk Pickpocket. I don't get the 1 star and 3 star though, whose stat boost is getting shared to the weakest ally?

[orchid glacier]

The summoned Tech ally

[orchid glacier]

Well, that card was in his Lab of Legends......

[orchid glacier]

So I made some changes for Jayce's entire PoC stuff

[orchid glacier]

Deck:
Eager Appretice (Studded Leather) -> Ferros Financier (Mischevious Spirit)

Powers:
1* - "... for every 6+ cost card you Behold." -> "... for every 6+ cost card you have started in your deck."
2* - "When you play a card..." -> "When you would play a card..." ; "Refill 1 -> 2 spell mana"
3* - Added: "... then grant it 2 random positive keywords"

[slender scaffold]

The +1/+1 might be too strong, by default you get +4/+4 or +8/+8 for having Assembly Line and Shock Blast start in your deck.

I think you can either go back to the "Behold" aspect and increase the stat in general (+2/+2 and +3/+3 for each behold), or make it so that it grants +1/+1 for every unique copy of a 6+ cost card (so having multiple copies of said card doesn't make it go crazy)

That's it actually, I love playing Jayce a lot in PoC 1.0 and really hope he comes back soon.

[orchid glacier]

Same

Apparently

I have been giving my units the wrong Challenger item

[slender scaffold]

Skill Issue

[orchid glacier]

[slender scaffold]

@orchid glacier shameless ping. We should start doing 4 stars (but not on the same level as A.Sol).

Also, I got muted for posting 5 images/attached files in a post so let's not do that

[orchid glacier]

I actually did that a few times

[slender scaffold]

Did not know that

we need Dyno to not be here.

or maybe we should migrate over to #custom-cards

[timber mortar]

I don't think that deck works as you want it to work with those powers

Also here probably putting "that cost 3 or more" is fine

[orchid glacier]

So I basically made Viktor...... worthless

JK but his starting deck lacks what his star power could do

[slender scaffold]

It should, an example would be:
If you have a 4, 5, 6, and 3 cost cards in your hand and you draw a 1 cost card. You then get 3, 4, 5, and 2 cost card.

[slender scaffold]

ooh I like this item concept for the 2 star power.

[orchid glacier]

Yeah I thought of making him item-based

Sadly though

ASol stole like his core theme of creation

(His star powers are based on created cards which also fits him but uh yeah)

[timber mortar]

Basically it would overall feel better and have a more marked restraint and aim of what you want, the issue of the current version is that is really dependant on a lot of stuff you cant control that easy

and it pretty much promotes a deck of only 1 costs

On top of being a lot of text

[slender scaffold]

Text length isn't really an issue, but it promotes a mix of high and low cost cards, and draw and nab as normal. Making it so that it only reduces costs by 3 or more will probably make it broken since you can just go with high cost cards instead of going for low's

It will be consistent and reliable yes, but I feel a hand-wide cost reduction for a condition feels better.

[past dune]

It’s fine for a champion to break any rules it wants as long as it plays well, fits the theme, and makes people happy without breaking the economy

[slender scaffold]

Awesome, thanks!

[timber mortar]

I dont think it promotes a mix, the reason why stuff like samira promotes a mix is because is once per round and a high discount that is not related to your draft

If anything it promotes having cheap spells that cost 2 or 1 mana with the titanic item, specially having the "create copies of me that cost one" in a spell that draws a bunch to just get easy infinites

A thing that can happen easily when thinking something is that your idea is cool, i do like it, but there is an obvius exploit qnd after the second game everyone would just do that exploit, similarly to scissors

It does make an interesting/fun concept of playing around insanely discounted nab cards, but idk how many of those would actually be relevant on infinite deck

[orchid glacier]

Changed Poro Cannon -> Fanclub President for the Manifest/Invoke playstyle

[plain loom]

This is my take on Karma. The idea is to help you reach Enlightenment faster by playing creatures, and to spellsling/use lifesteal to survive until you reach your win-con.

[round bluff]

No mk1 death ray?

[orchid glacier]

Boring

[slender scaffold]

@quartz sapphire

[raw pivot]

cold take, every deck should have the champs spell

[plain loom]

reason?

[raw pivot]

idk it just feels right for me ._.

[plain loom]

not all spells are good in main deck IMO

for example, Karma's

[slender scaffold]

Done with Lissandra.

Changes to True Ice II

• Game Start and Round Start: Summon a Frozen Thrall, if you don't have one already.

[plain loom]

Iceborn's Gift looks a bit super strong

[slender scaffold]

Only if you have a strong unit will it become strong, but yeah.

Very ideal for getting Bull Enuk or a Thrall on your board

[slender scaffold]

Done with Rumble!

[slender scaffold]

Pretty satisfied with this Soraka concept.

[final sleet]

Can you do it for Swain?

[slender scaffold]

Sure, will just have to wrap up Zoe.

or I might as well do swain while thinking of something good for Zoe

[slender scaffold]

@final sleet unsure if I did Swain justice, hope you like this concept.

and a bonus 4 star since I really wanted to play around his conquest.

[final sleet]

Wow, thanks for making it and really swain power looks scary

I really love seeing all your stuff and keep up the good work

[orchid glacier]

How many champs have we done at this rate LMAO

[slender scaffold]

No idea. Still enjoying until we finish everything.

Then we'll have to resort to making new champions and and their PoC Decks

[orchid glacier]

I'm doing my hubby Pantheon rn

[slender scaffold]

Keyword Soup is a go. I repeat. Keyword Soup is a go!

[orchid glacier]

Bruh I made like LOTS of mistakes

[slender scaffold]

It happens. I have several iterations too when I do stuff

[orchid glacier]

"The first time you played a unit"

"The first time you played a unit each round"

"create in hand, a spell that can target allies that costs 2 less"

"create in hand, a spell that can target allies that costs 2 less than that unit"

You see what is the problem

Husband ♥️

Actually

Nerfing the cost reduction so it won't be TOO powerful

[slender scaffold]

that's still pretty strong though, especially hextech fabricator.

[orchid glacier]

Yeah

Hence the nerf XD

[slender scaffold]

"The first time you play a unit each round, create a Fleeting spell in hand that costs 2 less than the unit and it can only target allies."

I think the conditional of "it cannot negatively affect allies" will break the system on which card it generates

[orchid glacier]

This is so that you don't get spells like

[slender scaffold]

oh wait

[orchid glacier]

Absorb Soul

Why tf you wanna Drain 4

[slender scaffold]

Absorb Soul good though heal your nexus

[orchid glacier]

Yeah but not on his filmsy followers

[merry vault]

"negatively affects" is also rather rather subjective. Blood for blood can be great

[merry vault]

Fated units are chonky

[slender scaffold]

"The first time you play a unit each round, create a Fleeting targeting buff spell in hand that costs less than the played unit."

[orchid glacier]

Wouldn't that just create ANY targeting spell that includes enemy only

[slender scaffold]

"Buff spell"

[orchid glacier]

But wouldn't that like, not create spells like Blood for Blood

[merry vault]

I like the deck a lot, but 1 and 3* powers are wonky

[slender scaffold]

It wouldn't, but it should fall under your specificiations of "negatively affecting allies"

[merry vault]

Remember that ya most likely wanna play on curve, aka little to no spell mana to play the generated spells. Just like Eve with her 2*

She can't do sht with it most of the time

[orchid glacier]

TBF, that shit is worthless

Like why would I wanna play a new unit that is kinda weak

Most of the time

Granted the created unit gets her buffs

[merry vault]

Your deck is literally a curve of 1 2 3 4

[slender scaffold]

Why can't it jsut generate Battle Bonds each round start and wtih reduced costs at 1 / 3 stars

[merry vault]

There

A specific cheaper spell would be nice

[orchid glacier]

But I main decked it with Tears of the Goddess

Wouldn't that be too OP

[merry vault]

Then swap it

The maindeck

Or pick a different card to generate

[orchid glacier]

TBH I wanna find an opportunity to slot in a Targon Tellstones

[merry vault]

Do it

[orchid glacier]

But 4-cost Blessing of Targon

[slender scaffold]

Targonian Tellstones is very versatile. It's definitely worth swapping it out.

[merry vault]

I'd also say battle bonds is a better pick to swap out for tellstones and generate

Generate it as like a 1 cost when you get the attack token, at 1*, and every turn at 0 cost at 3

Every round start and when you get the attack token cuz why da hail not

[orchid glacier]

Actually what if I just make Shield Vault the generatable spell

[merry vault]

Also good

[orchid glacier]

[slender scaffold]

Make Gem a generatable spell

[orchid glacier]

The power of stun

[merry vault]

Very Pantheon-y

[orchid glacier]

Or what if I make him like Nidalee/Jhin where he has his own PoC exclusive spell

[merry vault]

Like with Gwen, ya make one when you don't have the attack token, and every round later perhap

[orchid glacier]

Hmm hmm

[slender scaffold]

Turn it into a Burst spell

It'll become much more useful.

[orchid glacier]

Yeah I think I will make a PoC exclusive spell

Cheap and useful

But powerful

Mayhaps

(I'm probably taking his League E for that shit)

[merry vault]

Those are fun

[slender scaffold]

Also 2 star... he's really a Keyword Soup

[merry vault]

Better Kai'Sa

[slender scaffold]

He deserves it.

[orchid glacier]

Do you think his E could be "Grant an ally Barrier and deal 2 to an enemy"

[merry vault]

Granting barrier...

[orchid glacier]

Kai'Sa who

[slender scaffold]

Giving Barrier

but yes, that should work.

[merry vault]

It's that basically shield vault tho

[slender scaffold]

"Give an ally Barrier this round. If the Barrier lasts until Round End, deal 1 to all enemies."

[orchid glacier]

Shield Vault is his W, no?

[merry vault]

Jhin and Nida spells are something completely new pretty much

[merry vault]

No clue I don't play that sht

[orchid glacier]

Oh

LOL

[slender scaffold]

Q is throwing spear with execute, W is shield vault, E is the shield immune to damage BS.

[orchid glacier]

He has a skill that negates any DMG dealt to him from the direction he blocks and then deals DMG

Remember his E

Used to block turret attacks

That shit was broken

[slender scaffold]

he's always been BS.

Why not play with his Passive though, like every 5 cast (could tone it down), create a fleeting copy of the next spell you play. It costs 0.

[merry vault]

Make his ult

[orchid glacier]

His ult is comet

HMM

[merry vault]

:D

[orchid glacier]

"Grant an ally +4|+4, and it starts a free attack"

Maybe???????

[merry vault]

0 cost generated every round burst so it breaks the game

[orchid glacier]

Yes plz

[slender scaffold]

"Summon the top most unit in your deck and grant it Overwhelm. They start a free attack."

[merry vault]

Doesn't target allies for level up sadge

[slender scaffold]

Could be a card that is generated once per game, per say when Pantheon levels up.

[orchid glacier]

That feels like shit

[slender scaffold]

Similar to Ashe's one time AoE Frostbite

[merry vault]

Eats up a power slot kinda, unless you just slap it on top of the 2*

[slender scaffold]

or make it a deck upgrade

[orchid glacier]

Lazy af so imma swap Shield Vault and make it his star power

[merry vault]

Love the idea of big shirtless warriors just playing tellstones during downtime

[orchid glacier]

Shirtless Pantheon dunking me plz

[orchid glacier]

I think this is fine

[slender scaffold]

yeah, that looks good

[merry vault]

Is nice

Would play

[slender scaffold]

thoughts on any of the concepts I made?

[orchid glacier]

@slender scaffold My honest take for everything starting from TF

Twisted Fate
Deck is actually bad. TF's biggest problem is he can mill himself extremely fast. Unlike Nilah who can recycle some cards back to her deck, Fleeting cards that are discarded will not return back to TF's deck. This makes it extremely difficult for him to not deck himself out especially on the first encounter that which he starts with 18 cards. This problem is prevalent for TF back in 1.0 for a deck that isn't so draw focused (no Brash Gambler).

You also play around star powers that seems to do...... very different things. 1* and 3* powers focuses on that you can play lots of cards in a round in quick succession and that's interesting, but 2* power is REALLY questionable IMO. What does it mean by "most expensive unit" when you consider the discount powers you made? I think it makes it so that you would try to play 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd -> ... most expensive unit which is a reverse curve and that seems to rely on a lot RNG on the cards you wanna draw and who would get the discount and still stay most expensive.

The 4* power is very interesting but I'm not quite convinced about the guaranteed TF draw. It makes it so that if you have a Lv.20 TF and get the Heroes' Welcome power, you could theoretically draw 2 copies of TFs every time...... in a heavy draw-based deck. The good thing is you made him cost 0, but only for that 1 copy of TF, but I'm not convinced enough. The Destiny Card thing is really interesting and that part is okay honestly, as it seems to incentivize players to play 3 cards per round when possible.

Overall, I think TF needs a deck that won't mill him too fast (actually just no Brash Gambler considering you are playing around Nab as well which is enough). His star powers looks wonky IMO when combined, but as a standalone should be fine. I would give it a 5 / 10 rating

[slender scaffold]

Actually, need feedback on Soraka, Rumble, Lissandra, and swain.

or one of them (maybe Soraka? I'm really proud of Soraka)

[orchid glacier]

Lissandra
No Draklorn Inquisitor, 0 / 10
Jokes aside, I think not having her key follower card is a huge problem even with her star powers helping on the advancement of her Frozen Thralls. Avalanche is kinda weird in here since it's a 2-cost wipe with an addition of a Mighty Poro, but do you think 2 DMG would actually do anything for high star level adventure mobs? I don't. I would swap it out for Draklorn Inquisitor, or I could swap Bull Elnuk for it (I know you want it to shine but this deck isn't suitable for it).

Also, Lissandra's playstyle is not focused on killing units so IDK why the 1* and 3* powers are kill focused. She's more "big units go brrr + stalling". Maybe it's better to have that incorporated than relying on kills. Sure, you can kill units by ramming them onto smaller units but uh, when would that actually happen?

Her 2* feels...... fine? Makes it so that your weakest units would grow as strong as most likely the 8|8 thralls.

Overall, I think her deck REALLY needs her key follower card, her 1* and 3* powers need to focus on something that isn't kill focused. Her 2* power is really interesting and probably worth keeping. I would give it a 7 / 10 rating.

[slender scaffold]

she can stall did you see the items on the Frozen Thrall?