Cold War Germany Reforged and Expanded! New Tech Trees & Premium Tanks Proposal

[polar rover]

Much like with my French proposal (but not nearly as much) I went back and redid the whole structuring of how the lines worked and looked whilst being historically chronological. Germany was also quite a fun one for me because of all the varying types of tanks that were made/worked on alongside the prototypes.
red = lights
blue = mediums
purple = heavies
magenta = TDs

Anyways, here's Germany!

Jpz 1-3

Jpz 4-5

Jpz 105 (in WW2 just needs to be ported over)

Raketen 1

Raketen 2

Raketen HOT

Raketen 1A3

Wiesel 1 HOT

Wiesel 1 ATM HOT

Wiesel 1 ATM HOT/M621

Wiesel 2 ATM HOT/M621

For those wondering where the Begleitpanzer 57 went

as for the RU 251, thats a secret for now ;)

GVT-01, 03, 05

B-PS 101A
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-westgermany-indien-panzer/

one of the original ideas for the Indein Panzer project

Leopard Prototype A

Leopard Prototype Type 773

Leopard 1

Leopard 1A3

Leopard 1A5

Leopard 2

Leopard 2A4

Leopard 2A5

Keiler Et.01, Leo 2 PT.3-PT.5
All info can be found here
https://weaponsparade.com/leopard-2-prototypes-gallery/

RU 122

RU 262 (next to HS30 with recoilless rifle)

RU 362

Marder 1 (no ATGMs yet)

Marder 1A1

Marder 1A2

Marder 1A3

Wiesel 1A0 Mk.20 (next to 1A0 TOW)

Wiesel 1A1 Mk.20

Wiesel 1 RMK30/1

Wiesel 2 RMK30/1 is the Wiesel 2 hull but with the same RMK30 gun/turret sytem as on the Wiesel 1 RMK30/1
images dont seem to exist, but the Wisel 2 had the ATM HOT and M621 combo which means it could take the same RMK configuration and turret as on the Wiesel 1 RMK30/1

I'll do the premiums later

[polar rover]

ill get back to this one later as well

[hybrid gorge]

My usual gripe about adding tanks that really aren't much different from other tanks still very much remains, but I legitimately had no idea a Begleitpanzer 35 existed.
And I have to say, it looks like a far better tank than the Marder 1A3. It really shouldn't be in Era 2.

The two without TOWs, fine Era 2 material, although I'd argue that we don't need two branches of closely related vehicles doing very similar things.

I completely agree with the 57 being in Era 3 though, it's an incredible vehicle.

[polar rover]

Yeah the 35s only existed in drawings/loose blueprints

[hybrid gorge]

I like this. I do want it

[polar rover]

My idea with the begleits being their own thing was that they were meant to be a complementary vehicles to the regular marders

[hybrid gorge]

I genuinely have no idea if it's better than the 57 or not, but it's the sort of thing I'd support both.

[polar rover]

Well the 57 was chosen over the 35s
And iirc the 35mm were of the Swiss owrlikon type

So bushmaster ish

[hybrid gorge]

And that's a reasonable idea, but this isn't War Thunder and we have competing designs leading into completely unrelated lines.

The TT are frequently not chronological either

I'm also going to drop this here because it amuses me

[polar rover]

That is one that I know but I was not really sure what to do with it

[polar rover]

My TTs or wargaming/gaijins?

Cause I know theirs aren't really

Mostly WW2

[hybrid gorge]

Yours.
Sticking to time order is going to lead to unhappy compromises and weird stuff like a Leopard 1 successor being at the same tier as a base Leopard 1 despite being a functionally better design.

I also don't see the need to have four of the same tank. Looking at those RJPz's

The functional differences between some are minimal at best

[polar rover]

Oh you don't know how I do chornoligical advancements
So when there is a split, the tanks within that are still chornoligical upward in year to say the leopard 2s
They have no bearing on the main leopard 1 portion and the GVTs

[tidal ginkgo]

Tom would have a heart attack if he saw this

[hybrid gorge]

My point is that sometimes it makes sense gameplay wise for, say, a 1989 vehicle to before after a 1976 vehicle.

A good example is that the BPz 57 would be an improvement over the Marder 2 or that Marder M12

Also, complete tangent. Do you not have anything else for a second Era 3 heavy branch? The FMBT or MBT-75 projects, or the several Leopard 3s might have something

[polar rover]

They are on my radar, but I wanted to get through with what I think would be the essentials for Germany to have

For Germany to have its own full German roster instead of splitting off from the main US line we have rn

Also a lot of those to get through for me to choose which are best for evolution in a line

@hybrid gorge thoughts on my French one though?

[hybrid gorge]

Yes

[polar rover]

Ah okie

[hoary snow]

If I'm being 200% honest, some of these vehicles can just be upgrades instead of new vehicles

Like the Raketen 2 and Raketen HOT can be merged together. Give players an option to switch between the SS.11 (?) and HOT missiles

[hoary snow]

Or here. The JPZ 105 and 4-5 are literally the same vehicles just with different guns. Why make two tanks when you can just add the 105 as a sidegrade option in the modules.

[polar rover]

they could
but there are also other tanks that exist that are mainly caliber/configuration differences - 4-5 and 105 being different tanks in WW2 mode
also, the Raketen HOT was after the SS.11 and was the direct predecessor to what would be the Jaguar 1A0

[hoary snow]

Yeah and that's WW2

CW tries to steer away from small upgrades like that (for the most part)

[polar rover]

those "small upgrades" are what gives me the leeway to have all this

and if stuff is in ww2 the way it is, then it could also be reflected in CW per the balance needs/differences

[polar rover]

RU 362 GDD-A 35

Begleitpanzer 35 GDD-A 35

Begleitpanzer 35 (this one with the same gun and added TOW launcher with less autocannon rounds - similar to doctrine of balance with Begleitpanzer 57)

Begleitpanzer 57 (there are two different turret designs, and the one in-game is what the second image depicts)

[polar rover]

and heres another version that I have of the lights

so yes, RU 251 i moved to a premium because it is based off the Jpz 4-5 and is its own thing development wise

TH-300/301 is based off the marder chassis like the Begleits, but they have regular cannons instead of autocannons and or ATGMs
TH-300 is essentially a TAM but in Thyssen Henschel specifications before they sent the project out to Argentina where there the Argentinian TAM was born

so think like a tech tree upgradable TAM

TH-301/105 (two versions, one with and without the marder side skirts - 105mm gun was default configuration)

TH-301/120 was made by Thyssen Henschel, but I cant find any actual images of it
i suspect that it was to be offered with the last bersion of the TH-301 made being the TH-301/A4, and that one looked like this with its laser rangefinder

or for simplicities sake, i can do with calling them the TH-301/A1, A3, and A4

TH-301/A1

TH-301/A3

TH-301/A4

images and info can be found in this thread on warthunder if youre interested in delving deeper into the TH-301s and the differences in specs between the prototypes https://forum.warthunder.com/t/th-301-a4/71855

[polar rover]

now for the premiums

M48A2C Raumpanzer

B-PS 101 B
all info in the link https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-westgermany-indien-panzer/

HWK 30 is in WW2 and just needs to be ported over

Jpz KM (Krauss-Maffei)

Jank One
(a semi-joke tank) https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/jank-one-man-tank/

Borgward MBT (also known as Leopard prototype C)

Kunze Panzer (in WW2 so should be ported over)

Leopard 1 Stealth

VT1-2

Porshe Lenkrakete

PM 2 105

SPz 12-3 LGS

Jaguar 2 (replaces standard jaguar 1)

Leopard 2 PT.11

KPz-70 (replaces US MBT-70 in western premium tree so that US MBT-70 is tech-tree apllicable (you'll see that one soon ;) ))

Wiesel 1 ATM HOT/RMK

Leopard 3 (concept model)

EGS Concept

Rh. Pzw is the panzerwagen in WW2 and just needas to be ported over

RU 362 GDD-A 35 could be a tech tree or premium either is fine

Marder CLOVIS

i can expand on this further if need be but what I have right now is what I believe to be the essentials for Germany to have in an entire roster

[hoary snow]

Ayyyy it's my goat the PT-11

[hoary snow]

Yeah lets shove a Tiger II P into a mode with M103s, IS-4Ms, M48A5PIs, T95E3s, and FV4005s as commonly encountered vehicles

Commonly encountered vehicles with no way to get a downtier

You're always against them

Some things are better left excluded

[hybrid gorge]

The Tiger II is best kept out of CW in my opinion.
It didn't see any post-WWII service with anyone, unlike a few other German tanks, nor would it actually hold up well.

[hybrid gorge]

Ah, that's the Leopard 3 you went with.
There's plenty others, so it's a bit of a waste as a premium in my opinion.
Same with the EGS

[hybrid gorge]

Here's one tank that might be worth a premium slot. The Marder M12.

Armed with a 30mm Mauser MK 30-2, it was part of a competition that, as many do, went nowhere

Also, surprised you don't have any other ACV Pumas

[polar rover]

If the M12 could carry an ATGM then it would be

[hybrid gorge]

Not as an Era 2 autocannon premium? Basically the same as the Marder 2 in that regard

[polar rover]

If they got a damage buff then maybe

[hybrid gorge]

Tom, the Marder M12 doesn't even have ATGMs.

[polar rover]

Marder 2 though I believe was planned to have some kind of ATGM system

[hybrid gorge]

I can understand the Puma family, but that Marder doesn't get one

[polar rover]

A model of it was made to have a Milan launcher on top but there is also another ATGM system I forgot the name of that I think was planned to be used on it

[polar rover]

Interestingly saying no to the VT 1-2

Because...?

[runic bobcat]

We don’t need more tanks with autocannons

[polar rover]

How so? Imo there actually isn't enough of them

Let alone enough tanks in cold war anyways

[hybrid gorge]

We don't have any mid-large sized tanks armed with only autocannons, so it's definitely a niche we're missing

[hybrid gorge]

That one is weird. Misclick?

[runic bobcat]

What stats would you want the gun to have ?

[hybrid gorge]

It's a 30mm autocannon. Let me find the RoF

[polar rover]

Scared of a 30mm

Yeeeaaaahhhh

[runic bobcat]

I guess it would be era 2 anyway so what difference does it make

[hybrid gorge]

800 RPM, so faster than a Bushmaster.

[runic bobcat]

What about the damage per shot ?

[hybrid gorge]

The Stormer 30 gets 40 with its 30mm autocannon, whereas the BMP-2/3 gets 15.
With the cyclic rate of fire being slightly lower than a Rh-202, you could make an argument for either range.
Personally, 30 should be fine

[runic bobcat]

Would that not be 24000 dpm ? Or am I wrong

What pen would it have ?

[hybrid gorge]

You are wrong there. You have to remember reloads and the like.
It's why the BMP-3 gets better DPM than the BMP-2 despite being worse in a fight.

As for penetration, difficult to say. War Thunder has the gun, because it's the gun that the modern Puma gets. I doubt it had access to the same ammunition.

I imagine similar penetration to the XM800T, but on a larger and slower platform.

[runic bobcat]

So what would the dpm be like then and the clip size

[hybrid gorge]

I don't have historical figures on the clip size, and DPM really depends on the reload time.

We could easily end up with something with DPM on par with the Wiesel, but a lower clip size would be preferable. 50 rounds at 30 each would give a clip burst of 1500

[polar rover]

This is what I'm interested in

I find it interesting how both Germany and France were going through designing manless turreted autoloading tanks

But they ended up both going conventional with further endeavours

What about the mod 1?

[hoary snow]

that's assuming it has a bottomless clip and also pens every shot

[hoary snow]

that's completely up to wg to decide frankly

probably a either a 75 or 100 round clip, or a 50 if it has a short interclip reload time

@polar rover how would you feel about potentially incorporating an early Puma IFV concept into all this

It saw initial design work as early as 1995 iirc

[polar rover]

If I could make the line have a parallel amount of jaguars that would make sense then yes

Cause jaguar 1 proper can be a bottom era 1 tech tree replaced by the jaguar 2
Jaguar 2 becomes premium

Then have the Jaguar 1A2 be in mid and 1A3 as top tier

For the marders it would have to be marder 2 and then the puma
Mid and top tier respectively

Marder M12 can be a premium, and the marder 2 was conceptualized to have an ATGM platform on it

I mention the jaguars because I want both the jaguars and marders to be parallel in amount of tanks they have/placement

[polar rover]

like how current trees are designed, i did it for the germans with the Indien Panzer being the starting era 1 node that then leads to the others
i decided to have the HS.30 be the start of the lights and omit the RU122 seeing as they are really close design wise and the HS.30 being a staple among the German forces during the late 50s to 60s

HS.30

[untold verge]

Isn't that the KPZ 07P turret??

[polar rover]

Nah

Kinda similar but they different

[untold verge]

Also I have a premium idea

Let me get images