#Flora “spotting transparency” 15 m rule

59 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

iron wolf
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People often complain about unfair shots coming from bush campers. It’s very common and old problem. Suggest run an event as testing ground for an updated mechanic related to how spotting works in general.

Idea is simple - flora always affects tank spotting ability no matter how far it is from a tank.
Live: flora does not affect tank spotting ability within 15 meters (since its considered “invisible” for spotting rays).
Suggestion: flora affects tank spotting ability at any (!) distance.

Just for clarification - only exclusion when flora does not affect tank spotting ability - within 15 meters when a shot is fired - it is not a suggestion, as it works now when shot is fired.

Result: a flora within 15 m circle still provides a camo factor but no more preserves a tank full capability to spot. You still can spot but your spot rays are affected by any flora at any distance from your tank.
This change may contribute for more active gameplay since you have to move more to be able to spot. Also playing a role of spotter for your team gets more valuable since bush campers can’t spot as effective without leaving a flora.

midnight sluice
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Passive scouts shot dead in the Bronx

spice quest
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You do realise thats how sitting 15 metres behind bushes, fallen trees currently works? If you are sat 15 metres behind it that affects both your spotting of a enemy and an enemies spotting of you. What the tactic has always been is, roll into the bush, spot rhe enemy, roll back 15 metres till you cant see through the bush and fire.

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The transparency of bushes is only there to give a visual clue on the firing penalty. When you are far enough back the shows fully to indicate the camo factor the bush provides doesnt completely disappear. When you can see through it, if you fire you lose the concealment factor it provides. When it comes to spotting its the same for both players as they are having to take the concealment the bush provides into acvount transparent or not.

iron wolf
iron wolf
# spice quest The transparency of bushes is only there to give a visual clue on the firing pen...

I know exactly how it works. Within 15 meters circle your tank have zero observation (ability to spot) penalty and and gets full flora camo factor same time. That’s what I suggest to rid of - so tank gets camo bonus from flora and yet tank spotting ability decreased same time by this very flora.

Visual transparency is another thing of course, not related to spotting ability, it is more like a visual aid to let player see through flora within 15 meters circle to help with aiming and visual clarity.

white stump
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This post has me super confused. So are you asking to have the spotting decrease effect even when you pull into a bush?

iron wolf
midnight sluice
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Even if the blue dot is facing north (up)?

zenith orbit
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I am not following this post at all.

I can understand OP at first suggests in their second paragraph that any bushes within 15m of your tank should have the same effect on vision as any bush 15+m away but then goes on to suggest mechanics already in the game?

But then as this conversation goes on with players I know have an understanding of said mechanics, OP goes on to further confuse players by suggesting changes that are either already part of the core mechanic, or just makes zero sense.

I am of the opinion that core game mechanics need to be left alone. Period. That’s how things break.

midnight sluice
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I have no idea what they are getting at, hence why I posted that image because that's my interpretation

spice quest
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The only other thing I can guess out is that bushes dont have the transparency feature? So people dont know when they are the 15 metres behind any flora?

zenith orbit
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What I’m gauging here is that if no one here can make proper sense of OPs post, than this thread is a failure and needs rethought out with a proper explanation and possibly even visual aides. Otherwise I can see the potential of this thread turning sour.

iron wolf
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Emmmm. English not first language. Anyway why it is so hard to understand the only and simple suggested change thats beyond me.
Idea is simple - flora always affects tank spotting ability no matter how far it is from a tank.
Live: flora does not affect tank spotting ability within 15 meters (since its considered “invisible” for spotting rays).
Suggestion: flora affects tank spotting ability at any (!) distance.

Just for clarification - only exclusion when flora does not affect tank spotting ability - within 15 meters when a shot is fired - it is not a suggestion, as it works now when shot is fired.

Core mechanics are to be altered if they lead to specific unintended outcomes. That is the case according to my knowledge. Thats how things get fixed.

Hope it is clear.

iron wolf
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Flora “spotting transparency” 15 m rule

rigid dove
# iron wolf Emmmm. English not first language. Anyway why it is so hard to understand the on...

I think I've got what you're saying. A tank in a bush should not be able to spot through the bush because it's in a bush or 15m away from it, but the bushes camo itself should remain the same?

If so this solution solves nothing, as others have said it removes core gameplay principles, it eliminates the ability to be a passive scout entirely and promotes even more camping, as everyone is waiting for the light tank to take their brave pill, yolo spot and die which upon doing so means vision for the match fails and you're in a horrible camp off.

It greatly disadvantages the team with the potato light tank and will have the opposite effect on vision than you intend.

If you leave camo intact but remove the ability to spot through the bush it removes any incentive for a player to sit in a bush and look for targets, as they won't be able to see them. So the player will never enter the bush remaining 15m behind it, the bush never loses camo as its never shot through, meaning those sneaky tds get even sneakier.

iron wolf
# rigid dove I think I've got what you're saying. A tank in a bush should not be able to spot...

Hm, did you try it first so you can judge? Are you on the developer team so make such assumptions? Based on what? Thought as much. Zero arguments, just pure “i dont like it so you are wrong”. Very constructive.

I can reasonably claim opposite since i know what i cant disclose openly. Also, a passive scouting to your knowledge doesn’t mean sitting in a bush. Why im not surprised that another player confuse such basic things….
If one doesnt know how to be effective scouting passively without a bush, one isnt as good as thinks.

What i suggest motivates to move more to be able to spot. Its too convinient to take advantage of both, huge flora camo and full spotting capability. Its not even a strategy, you put yourself in disadvantage not doing so.

Scouts can easily do spotting so because they granted with a natural good camo for that purpose first off.
Team relies on spotting as before but spotting will require bit more effort beyond just abusing flora. Thats it.
It is better for gameplay in general. Thats why i suggest running a test so more people can understand it. I cant explain advantages of this change since most of you just narrow thinking and dont like changes which take away convenient op tactics you got used to.
But this change is needed, along with further tanks balance tweaks maybe to fine tune things.

rigid dove
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You think you know but you don't.

If that is your gamertag you need to have more than the 209 battles in light tanks you currently do to have any idea of how light tanking works.

Reread my first message it was edited to include more when you were typing if you haven't seen it.

I never claimed you cant passive scout without a bush however your not going to passive scout with another light tank on the field in the open without a bush. If there's no other lights /only slow tanks sure you have run of the map you can play however you like however if it's not that situation you need a bush to passive scout its not viable otherwise its just another dumb yolo light strategy.

spice quest
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Passive scouting literally is to find a good position, 9/10 being a bush or double bushed and spitting for the team. Yeah you can do it in an open field but why rish that with the camo that two bushes are going to give you?

Any scout that has good camo to start with or has worse but can make the most of it with sit in a bush to spot a known crossing area. Active scouting is only for those scouts that have poor camouflage to statt with. General rule of thumb for most scouts is to passive scout first when you can, then move onto active. Maybe active scout of the start but to hell would anyone take a manticore for example into an active scouting role as it main form of spotting.

iron wolf
# spice quest Passive scouting literally is to find a good position, 9/10 being a bush or doub...

Why do not use a bush and rely solely on natural good camo factor? Because using a bush is op tactic with no reasonable counter play since bush camo bonus is way too high.
Bushes are used not only by scouts but also other tanks. Basically say a ht hidden in a bush capable to outspot any scout at decent range currently what is unreasonable.

Active spotters do not rely on flora to be able to spot so this change wont affect them as much if at any reasonable degree.
Passive spotters can and must use their natural camo to feel a balanced distance so to stay close enough to be able to spot while avoiding get spotted. They do not need (!) a flora to do their job so wont be affected.
Arty wont be affected as well.
HT and MT brawlers that lead a battle actually and fight head to head using armor also wont be affected and rather benefit since wont get outspotted and obliterated by some tank staying all match in a bush near a base.
Those who mostly get negatively affected are players that abuse flora to sit in a bush and do nothing while keep shooting those who play active all match and get outspotted because of flora abuse with no chance to counter play.

If you dont get the idea and reasoning, you need a take a part in a gameplay test to understand and see.

hazy heron
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what in the ego thread

hearty minnow
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the double bush tech is just fine, just need to know how to play..

unique thorn
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skillissuepeepo clearly....double bush mechanic is the thing....man thats basic...u should be confused when it doesnt work...not to be against it

iron wolf
iron wolf
# hearty minnow so u want to change smth thats been on the game since creation? (if i get it rig...

I suggest to fix what was designed 15+ years ago for a different game. Maps were very different, tanks were different, spotting system performed not as well as now and many more. Did you even play that game back then to make any judgements on what is right or wrong?
It was ok back then but for almost last decade this mechanic has been casing gameplay outcomes that were never claimed as intended.
I have no need to practice how to abuse meta patterns and perform better in game sinceI have zero interest in getting used to what is broken fundamentally.

If devs run a test which proves lack of advantages with this change, okay then. But I know there will be and many will agree after testing it.

iron wolf
hazy heron
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this idea sucks lmao

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make bushes useless for spotting pov

iron wolf
hazy heron
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if i did i didnt mean to upvote it but okey

midnight sluice
hearty minnow
iron wolf
midnight sluice
hearty minnow
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iJUSTwhat

midnight sluice
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That's just how it works

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And it works pretty consistently

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You could spot an enemy, causing that enemy to shoot or move, and now your teammate can see them for themselves

hazy heron
hearty minnow
midnight sluice
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Sound logic?

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Idk what to tell you

torn pine
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It is how it works. You don't get assist if the other guy can also see the enemy

midnight sluice
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And if several people are spotting the same tank, assisted is split evenly amongst them all

hazy heron
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i think for this thread to be created op must've gotten outlit by a light in a bush and then died

midnight sluice
unique thorn
unique thorn
unique thorn
midnight sluice
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I'm not even going to attempt to decipher that

torn pine
# unique thorn Thats why spotting system is broken...no about you got spotted but when u play l...

The spotting medal only pops up for the initial spotting of the enemy tank.

If a friendly moves up after you have spotted and is spotting the enemy on its own, independent of your spotting of the enemy and damages it, then you get no assist. If a third friendly shows up and deals damage without spotting said enemy, then both you and the second friendly split the assist damage.

It's not a complicated system in that regard. If your spotting isn't required, you get no assist points.

zenith orbit
iron wolf
torn pine
zenith orbit
unique thorn
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Man my eyes bleeding from your answers...like point blank answers JUSTwhat pepeclown @torn pine