Moe values for public

[ocean flame]

Hello everyone,
I will let the comunity vote if you guys want to know moe requirements or not. Public moe values means we can make a website for everyone and you can see moe values for every tank in the game from tier 5 up to era 3.

Moe means values for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and gold mark.

Its up to you.

Simply give ✅ or ❌.

[sick jackal]

There is one that updates still but has no new tanks

Since like 2023

[ocean flame]

Yes of course they just need to post it on WG api

[sick jackal]

Id love to see a better one tho

Because marking is the only reason I play. Would love to know requirements for new tanks

[undone field]

then share it w ur clan and other people please

[sick jackal]

Yessir!

[grave swift]

I completely agree with this proposal and have nothing to add.

[kindred idol]

WoT stars shows moe values, but in my experience can also be a but skewed. A moe site backed my WG would be a huge plus for all the advanced players

[sick jackal]

Yea its not accurate. Ive tries using it

[ocean flame]

Cant be accurate without WG api

Thats why I fight here for public moe core data 🙂

[wooden sky]

I think part of the problem is that it is not a simple average of matches. MOE is determined by an algorithm.

It uses an EMA or Exponential Moving Average. Which gives more weight to recent data (values). Our garage stats show a simple average. But MOE is determined by the EMA. Those might be close, but they won't be exactly the same.

WOTMA is not keen to give exact details. So, I can't say I fully understand how the system is implemented. Just the general concept. Likely there is a lot of room to give us more info than we have now.

Every match I always try to get as much damage as I can. Either I get the MOE or I don't. I can see the value of knowing the goal to let me know if a MOE is within my reach or not. Should I pursue it or not.

But I don't know how the player base would react. Everyone being able to see the goals, might encourage more MOE seekers to target a lower MOE tank. This would push up the value.

[sick jackal]

I mean you already can target lower MOEs as i do myself. Basically just play bad performing tanks, they are always ez for me to mark

[undone field]

for me and i believe a lot players would like smth like tomato.gg,would be amazing.

[prisma cape]

It would be very useful for me as well and would help a lot of players.

[hot wadi]

Can you not just have them in game for everone to see.

[sick jackal]

Yes we do!

[undone field]

u can have it in the game but u will need to convince wg first

[ocean flame]

Thats what I will create...after WG post it on API 🫡

[ocean flame]

All of that wg has...but they not made it public 🫡

[placid shore]

Quick thing. They've already said multiple times previously that they won't do this. If they throw an exact value in game then people will just scout out the easy marks and do those.

[sick jackal]

And whats the problem with that?

[undone field]

look at wot on pc (totally diff game), there’s no problem w it at all, in the end people will still try to mark tanks that are enjoyable for them

[sick jackal]

Yea exactly. They have it and they are fine

[sick jackal]

There's no real downside to this. People just like to complain about anything

[undone field]

real

[ocean flame]

Thats exactly whats not gonna happen....just why u think like that?

On top of that why not? Finally tanks...which are only for dust in garage...someone will play with them...cos someone want every single tank with 3 marks or even with gold mark...think about it and dont copy their logic

[sick jackal]

There's no problem with marking low requirement tanks

I mark whatever I like or looks good

[placid shore]

I'm just saying why they won't do it. Besides, only targeting a tank for marks when it's requirements are low undermines the value of the mark itself.

[fluid quail]

Hopefully with enough threads & this topic being talked about that we can hold onto a little grasp of hope that maybe just maybe WG will listen and implement something.

[royal prairie]

Never understood why WG gatekeeps this harmless data. We shouldn't even have to go to a website it should be in game for all to see. It should be under profile tab in stats section. Right now we just get a percentage of damage standing🤷‍♂️

[undone field]

wg gatekeeps it like its some top secret data from fbi

[fluid quail]

Maybe have something like this implemented as well in game like on PC. Due to it being a mod though I would imagine it’s pretty hard to get this on console

[ocean flame]

On PC this is a mod its not part of the game 🙂 u need to download it but its legal ye

[sick jackal]

Yes this would be amazing

[wooden sky]

Over time the MOE values of each tank will stabilize due to the power of the tank in the current meta. If "good players" want to target low MOE tanks, I say GO FOR IT!

How could it be a bad thing for them to play the tier 8 Huntsman more? I don't see people complaining that there are too many Huntsman's in matches. Or in CW, too many Centurion 9's.

[placid shore]

It's not really about the tank it's about the accomplishement of getting the mark

It's meant to be a player achievement. If you only go for the mark when it's at its lowest requirement that degrades the value of the accomplishement

[wooden sky]

Usually, they are lower because the particular tank is not very good. But if we could see when a "good tank" dips lower and then go after it, it likely wouldn't dip very much or for very long. Why? Everyone would get alerted to target it. With everyone targeting it, it could go up. Although it could also go down.

You can't assume that seeing the MOE value is an advantage to you. It would be if you have special info. But if everyone has the info, it is no advantage. Currently those "in the know" can look at 3rd party sites and get that secret info for an advantage. Putting it in-game would take away the advantage of those who currently use 3rd party sites.

[placid shore]

It's not that seeing it is the advantage. It's what people will do in response

Again. If you target a mark because it is low it directly lowers the weight behind the accomplishement

[sick jackal]

People do that already. Look at wot pc, they have this with no problem. And who cares if it goes up?

Don't get the argument here

[placid shore]

We're seeing this already. Mark's aren't taken as seriously here because they're easier to get by bot farming

[sick jackal]

Yea so who cares then?

If they aren't taken seriously let us have this then

I mean it has 43 check marks and 2 Xs on this post

So most are in favor

[wooden sky]

I didn't say it was a problem.

But I would focus on taking the Bot-farming inflation out of MOE.

[sick jackal]

Ah I see

Yea bot farming is a big problem

Like the lowest tier 10 to mark is like 4.6k. Thats crazy

Other than arty

[ocean flame]

And nothing change when people see low mark values...the tank is still bad so it increase only after some buff...same thing after nerf some tanks drop...easy as that

[sick jackal]

Exactly

[ocean flame]

-1 on both sides cos i did both for people

So only one X

[sick jackal]

Oh yea tru

[unborn helm]

Yess nice idea ❤️

[ocean flame]

They told me game is more fair when moe values are not public i was done

[royal prairie]

As per usual they are wearing a tin foil hat and clown makeup 💩🤡💩

[royal prairie]

Ok to put our belief into a digestible analogy us wanting public MOE values is like wanting to know what grade gives you an A+ on a test. We don't want to know the answers just what score gets us the grade. This is completely harmless data.

[undone field]

so we got nearly 80 people here and no comment from wotma staff ,what more we should do

[sick jackal]

Keep talking!

🤣

[undone field]

[lucid kite]

lol 2 people against it but nothing to say for themselves

[sick jackal]

It would be great if they added

Idk what they complaining about

[inland fern]

@mystic narwhal WE want Moe values public!!

[mystic narwhal]

not exactly sure what a comment would do but here you go?

[mystic narwhal]

I'm not exactly sure this is new information 😅 nor is it anything i can do something about. I'm sure consideration is put in repeatedly about the work required to surface more MoE information, but there is limited workload and doing that would require something else not to be done - and the judgement call will often have to be made as to whether something that realistically is of high appeal to a very very small % of players is worth doing over something that is likely more important to a larger % of players.

[undone field]

public api (moe values) is all we need, like on pc so we can make a website like tomato.gg

and im 100% sure giving this information to the public is not that difficult

[mystic narwhal]

the PC value isn't public either, those sites make an estimate the same as the 3rd party sites do for console

[mystic narwhal]

difficult =/= "free" or "no workload" though.

[fluid quail]

“Sites” is there other websites that show moe values cause the only one I know of hasn’t been updated in a few years

[mystic narwhal]

I'm saying any site, hence plural. I have no idea what or how many but it would apply for any

[fluid quail]

Oh ok! From your other comment about workload and for something else not be done if this was to be taken on instead. I would imagine with the amount of green ticks compared to the two people who are against it ( have no idea why) that majority of the players would be happy to have this information available. I don’t see any downside to this either other than what you mentioned.

[mystic narwhal]

The workload aspect i mean on the WG side, either work done on engineering aspects for API changes or dev/UI/Engineering/etc to surface it in game in some format. Employees would have to stop or not do a workload in order to do this instead.

In terms of an API change, I think the vast majority of players would never even know. Most do not check 3rd party sites and only a % of those care about MoE. The best thing would be an in-game surfacing but that would also likely be the most work.

[dreamy walrus]

Staff already responded to it on Ask-the-teams and then DM's. The OP made multiple threads on it and was answered already. This is the 3rd one now.

[undone field]

3rd and surely not last

if yall dont wanna do public api then atleast do smth like in game for marks, so we will know what we need to do to have 3rd mark/ gold mark, but please just do something abt it

[undone field]

like idk smth like this on pc

[sick jackal]

Yes please

I wanna know requirements for tanks like sfac,grom

[dreamy walrus]

PC does not have anything either. You are thinking of 3rd party mods

[undone field]

they have mods atleast

[dreamy walrus]

But Mods are not accurate, they are guesses

[fluid quail]

Right and considering this is the 3rd time this subject has been made with many players agreeing that maybe they should really make some actual consideration to putting this into effect in the future.

Correct most don’t check 3rd party websites cause they’re not updated lol if a 3rd party website gave us some sort of guideline then I’m sure the developers of the actual game can make some information available.

[fluid quail]

Maybe cause the majority of us want this change to happen max

More threads, more conversations, more ask the team threads about this will have WG to take more note & transferring there workload for this subject.

[dreamy walrus]

Please see: https://discord.com/channels/630895439520202783/1431748726782820581

There are no plans for this as it is a request that will negatively impact the integrity of the system.

[undone field]

here we go again

[dreamy walrus]

Players will need to earn them naturally through their own efforts.

[undone field]

so ur telling me if we know the needs to have 3 marks we will not earn them by our efforts?

[fluid quail]

Like I said in the other thread which you so graciously didn’t respond to that the MOEs are already devalued cause of bot farming. PC are just doing quite fine with a mod showing some sort of information & I can’t see no negative impact.

[dreamy walrus]

We heard feedback about Bots (also can confirm it has no impact to MoE either), but are looking in way to address this.

PC mods are player created and not real data or information. Just like the 3rd pary sites you can look at now. They are all player created values. None of them are actual MoE values

[undone field]

there is literally no updated 3rd party site to wotma

[dreamy walrus]

That's not related to us as 3rd party means its created by a player. It just means another player doesn't care enough to run a site doing the same thing the previous player was doing.

And just to stress again, none of the data on 3rd party sites were real. It was created by the player who made the site.

[sick jackal]

The 3rd party sites we have dont work tho

[dreamy walrus]

Ok?

[sick jackal]

We need something that works

[dreamy walrus]

3rd Party sites are created by a player, so you'd have to ask your fellow players to make one

[undone field]

ik it was not real, the real data yall have and yall are keeping it like some fbi top secret project when its technically our data in the game

[fluid quail]

A way would be damage done to bots not be contributed towards MOE but anyway that’s a different topic.

Player created values that relate to in game damage numbers done by the players surely?

[undone field]

i dont even know why is our stats ingame written incorrectly, for example: i got 3rd mark w strv 122a and ingame data shows that i have 5 754 DPG, when in reality i needed like 7-9k per game to get 3rd mark, atleast do our stats right ingame ,bcs there is no way that 3rd mark needed this low DPG

same w jaguar for example, 3rd mark needs by ingame stats 8k DPG when in reality it needs like 10k+

if yall dont wanna do smth then atleast do our stats right ingame

[worthy bluff]

Yes

[grand berry]

So you don't want to state values then just show the % in Game that's the easiest fix

One of points being people would target easier marks is irrelevant as people already farm bots

Everything has already been discredited

[sick jackal]

Tell em faulty!

😂

Yea theres no real argument to not add this

[grand berry]

Maybe server side or old gen, but then just make it a feature of current gen

Believe bam said awhile ago it's something they see server side so would just be building a UI for the display

And just make toggle able so people can choose to have it on or off so no complaining (I'm sure people will find something)

[ocean flame]

Oh my...3rd party? https://tomato.gg/ here you go all of that is from WG api...all of that...thats for PC

All we need is moe values on WG api...like on PC wot on WG api where you get live moe values....u simply take data from it and do a table or whatever on website

[dreamy walrus]

I'm not sure you understand that they are doing, they are scraping data of player profiles and applying a formula to it to guess what the values may be. There is no API data for MoE.

[dreamy walrus]

Correct, that' matches what has been said.

[ocean flame]

He was talking about website that shows moe values but its fake and old

Then he said only way is get it from wg like pc

[surreal crown]

How can moe requirements drop? It isn't something, that can be achieved so simply and only devs can screw them by giving free tanks and buffing/nerfing.

[undone field]

[ocean flame]

Do you really think they do these websites from scratch? From random data?

Haha...good one

I had also conversation with wotstars staff....they told me they cant show moe data cos its not on wg api like pc data

[grand berry]

We don't even need the actual number, just display the live % in game @dreamy walrus

Problem solved

Don't have to worry about people taking advantage of low requirements because the requirements are still hidden

Literally no disadvantages other than having to make the UI for it

[ocean flame]

True but website with this data is enough for now

https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/all/wot/tanks/mastery/?r_realm=eu

This is for wot pc @dreamy walrus

Thats what we need

[dreamy walrus]

Its based on the last 2 weeks of data so if the current players playing a tank aren't great, the requirements lower.

[ocean flame]

We know how moe works

[dreamy walrus]

Not the person asking the question because they wouldn't have asked that if they did.

[ocean flame]

The requirements drops when come nerf....opposite is when tank gets buff so its better and requirements increase

[surreal crown]

And may I know if the values are somehow corrected/touched by you guys? Considering some ultra rare or never played tank by great players? Or how is it calculated for these tanks with small sample of battles?

[grand berry]

So is there a reason why we can't have ingame % then @dreamy walrus

[dreamy walrus]

Your % progress is already in-game and is displayed after each match (if your EMA is within the 1 MoE threshold)

[grand berry]

I mean actually ingame like a live %

[ocean flame]

Of course it is but where are values ?

[dreamy walrus]

That is not how MoE's work

[ocean flame]

[undone field]

[sick jackal]

Pc has a mod that does it

Its live percentage

When you shoot it goes up

[dreamy walrus]

Its based on your EMA vs the Target requirement.

[ocean flame]

Yes....but screw that mod now

All wr need is that wg api data jesus

[grand berry]

At the end of the game you have %, I'm asking to see it ingame as it updates

[dreamy walrus]

That is a player created mod which is not accurate to MoE at all. Its a guess

[undone field]

[ocean flame]

[dreamy walrus]

There is no such mechanic for MoE's.

[sick jackal]

But it works

Its always accurate aswell

[dreamy walrus]

You guys are falling for a mod that is not how MoE work.

[ocean flame]

Oh ye there is such mechanic but for console team is too much

[grand berry]

Literally every streamer uses it and most are partners or ccs

[surreal crown]

Still waiting for cooldown and polish TD mechanic

[grand berry]

Pretty sure keyhand uses it as well

Who is a wot dev

[dreamy walrus]

It is still a mod. Just because people use it, doesn't change what it is and that its not based on actual MoE values

[ocean flame]

But guys these are all pc staff

[undone field]

[surreal crown]

@dreamy walrus ? Could I please get an honest answer on this?

[ocean flame]

Give this task to wot pc team and they make it on console too

Simple

Or ask them how to do it when you dont know

[grand berry]

So MOEs ain't updated ingame but at the end of battles (personal MOEs)

[ocean flame]

Personal ye

[dreamy walrus]

Correct, as it needs your total result to update your EMA, which is then compared against the targets.

[ocean flame]

The targets yes

[grand berry]

I was told by a Dev it's something that is tracked ingame, but if that's not the case then fair enough

[ocean flame]

Thats the moe values from our % are done

Jesus christ this is hard

I need coffee and cigarettes for this conversation

https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/all/wot/tanks/mastery/?r_realm=eu

https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/all/wot/tanks/mastery/?r_realm=eu

[dreamy walrus]

Its not hard, I think you are making it hard lol. Its simple, MoE is not public information for the (long ago) mentioned reasons.

[ocean flame]

This we need but for wot console

Look on this thread...you think people dont want it to see? Dont think so

[dreamy walrus]

It is not something that we have any plans to expose to keep the system fair so its earned naturally and not gamed.

[ocean flame]

Oh my god...

So you know how to put it on wg api u simply wont

Bravo

Bravooo

[undone field]

[dreamy walrus]

Correct, you've been told this 3 or 4 times now.

[ocean flame]

Wait until 200+ people will agree with me then you will need to rethink

People simply want it...

[dreamy walrus]

It would not change it the view point as mentioned above. Its to protect the system.

[undone field]

[ocean flame]

Protect? Ahhh sorry u said its not fair when moe values are public

Fair is night stalker etc etc

I forgot

im done

[dreamy walrus]

I'm not sure there is anything further that I can add to this topic and other commentary is not needed. Have a good day.

[ocean flame]

Guys when we see public moe values game become unfair

[undone field]

talking to wg staff

[ocean flame]

Yep simply hardest task

[undone field]

@dreamy walrus u have question here

[chrome musk]

once again a wg employee fighting the will of the players. Only to do things that benefit profit margins.

[wooden sky]

Don't shoot the messenger. You guys (WE) need to remember most often the WG staff sent out to interact on Discord are not the ones making the final decisions. I am happy that the decision was made to increase WOTMA staff interactions with Discord.

If you guys have proposal to make, make it. Back it up with reason and logic.

Throwing out passive aggressive insults won't work. Those are more likely to have the opposite effect you want.

[ocean flame]

True but read the answers...

[regal bluff]

are you sure this is MoE stuff being returned there? Not the Mastery badge?
I must say i am more convinced for mastery badges as query param is xp there which is loosely related to MoE. I might be wrong as I know little of PC WG api but it sounds like mastery badges for me

[regal bluff]

that is actually just one of a few factors impacting moe

[ocean flame]

that send me guy from tomato.gg and they have whole site from wg api 🙂

but i agree this is the one https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/all/wot/tanks/stats/?r_realm=eu

but this https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/all/wot/tanks/mastery/?r_realm=eu is like whole core data you need

[royal prairie]

Then give us data/updated UI so we dont have to guess...

[undone field]

@dreamy walrus what about a limited, read-only API for public stats? or yall cant share it bcs of platform restrictions (ps/xbox may limit what data can be shared) if im not wrong, bcs we need atleast something

idk maybe smth in-game

[regal bluff]

Ok you have sent ss with some convo with this guy. Could you also paste ss where he claims MoE values are available for pc with single api call for certain api context which means there is no need to scrape signifficant amount of players data and aggregate those to get MoE requirements?

[tawdry ridge]

Like i said in different discord, good players will mark tanks without the numbers needed, every time you play at 100% right ? and this change doesnt even affects the game how it is played. instead of this change it will be nice if WG will work for example on pernament +-1 matchmaking, this is change that affects the game and owerall game health.

[royal prairie]

This thread isn't about +-1, we all agree its great but takes time for some reason even though they run the test for it and have the set parameters, like literally it should be just a button press essentially. This is everyone wanting to know what grade gets an +A. Its completely harmless data that should be under the profile tab in stats section. The game already computes the damage standing percentage for tanks in that section. It would literally be so easy for WG to just show the dmg that gets you to 65%,85%, 95%, and 100%.

[tawdry ridge]

Yeah, it will be nice if we can see the real numbers needed, but this change doesnt change anythink

[wooden sky]

I really don't care much one way or the other. Make the values public or keep them hidden.

However, I don't see how making the numbers public would hurt the integrity of the MOE system. It seems like the system has already been corrupted to some extent by bot-farming. Those numbers are included. It is basically adding "fake good games".

If the MOE numbers were public and players targeted "low MOE" tanks, would they not have to still play them and get whatever damage they get?

Or is the fear those that game the system by purposely bot-farming (some have said 'cheat the system'), would game the system even more when they can easily see which tanks to target?

[ocean flame]

Cos when they give that public...then everyone can see OP things in the game...they need to nerf it...they are RIP... 🙂 + maybe when they are touching numbers then they are RIp twice

[placid shore]

Sure. Because we need the MOE values to know something is busted……

[ocean flame]

like we know it...but they wont agree 😄

[wooden sky]

Part of the issue is that the MOE calculation is not a simple average it is an EMA (exponential moving average). So if you have the value, you won't really be able to calculate how close you are to getting to achieving the MOE.

People will say my average damage is X and the requirement is X. Why don't I have the MOE? The answer would be it isn't a simple average it is a calculated EMA. Depending on how your damage values have been recently, you might get the MOE sooner or later with an EMA compared to a simple average.

So having the values won't be quite as useful as some might hope. Although knowing the values certainly would be useful.

[ocean flame]

And for your EMA you need moving moe values to know...how much dmg you need to have for 3 marking a tank thats it...its not random...simply u need those values to know