#Void and Purity (or: A big fat lore doc about vessel purity)

227 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

sly pivot
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With the advent of Silksong upon us, I've been reflecting back on the lore as we wind down on the original game. I felt like putting together this doc, addressing everyone's favorite lore topic - vessel purity.

It contains my views on the nature of a pure vessel, and uses in-game dialogue and visual story-telling to argue two main points:

-A pure vessel is a vessel whose mind has no Dream Essence
-The Knight's mind has no Dream Essence

Hope you like reading, because I clearly like writing.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OGTiilcQMxhldad7yyda8ASNj7RJXobWf6D2LOFCnc/

pure_vessel.png
Google Docs
Void and Purity

Void and Purity -Looking at Darkness in a New Light- by Golden Yak (discord: goldenyak) Contents Introduction The Premise - What is a Pure Vessel? The Knight and Essence (and their lack thereof) Why Having No Essence Matters Addendum - Cut Content Other Views on Purity (and why they're flawed) ...

cedar garnet
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i do not understand

sour orchid
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Very interesting observation about the Knight dream nailing the Abyss Egg! I read the two main sections. It made me thing about what Steel Soul Jinn says about her masters, saying their minds are "other".

keen kayakBOT
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Jinn - General - Listening after acquiring King's Brand

...A King, the tiny It becomes. Jinn knows that mark, but cannot bow.
Jinn's masters are other... minds other... Not order. Not order, they seek.

@mossbag used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Listening after acquiring King's Brand
sour orchid
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And she also says the Knight is "like masters"

keen kayakBOT
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Jinn - General - Listening after acquiring Void Heart

This It... A rare It. Has not seen many, so vulnerable, but triumphant. Makes Jinn feel a thing... surprise?
Jinn misjudged... The It is not inferior. Perhaps... different? Different to Jinn. More complete? Different... like masters?

@mossbag used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Listening after acquiring Void Heart
sour orchid
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Do you think "minds other" could be indicating the existence of non-essence based minds?

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Since Knight is like Masters and Masters have "minds other".

sly pivot
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Also, the notion that Jinn cannot acknowledge the mark of the Pale King, because her masters 'do not seek order', and Pale King considered Void the 'power opposed'.

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Void is pretty chaotic in its natural state, so any beings aligned with it might well reject the authority of an entity so devoted to order like the Pale King.

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could be kind've an order/chaos-light/darkness cosmology thing going on

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(maybe this is what Radiance, another being of light, was referring to with the remark 'ANCIENT ENEMY...?')

sour orchid
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With the Ancient Civilization and the Steel Assassins being in Silksong, we'll hopefully get more data on this stuff soon as well

real elk
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The apparent contradiction would be that we can indeed dream nail Jinn (and also the crystal golem) to see they do have essence related thoughts

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So it might be less about the reliance on essence and more about how true a construct/vessel's mind can get to a natural one

sly pivot
manic steeple
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What an amazing read

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Honestly, this made so much sense

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There are still questions left that i feel are unsatisfied, even after reading the QnA. The main one being "why does the Knight not get tainted, but the Hollow Knight does? What differenciates between the interaction between the Knight and NPCs with the interaction between PK and THK"

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But really thats besides the point of the document

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Another unrelated thing, i feel like saying that the game's theme is "the inevitability of collapse/the futility of preventing it and seeking eternity" is somewhat misguided. To me, that doesnt feel like the story of Hollow Knight at all.

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I plan to try to figure the themes after im done with silksong. Hopefully it goes well

sly pivot
# manic steeple There are still questions left that i feel are unsatisfied, even after reading t...

I agree on this one, I do address it (under Hollow Knight Related Questions), but it remains a question for me too.
I speculate that the shell of a vessel prevents unwanted influences from leaking in (the shell of THK repels the dream nail until its further cracked open) and also the Void from reaching out (the Collector had no shell, and absorbed Essence from the Love Key Bug).
Therefore the Knight's intact shell would prevent them from being tarnished.
But THK also had an intact shell during its time in White Palace...
Maybe the presence of the pale beings, so much more powerful than ordinary bugs, was just something that couldn't be shielded against.

sly pivot
sweet nexus
manic steeple
rich dawn
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I don’t care

sweet nexus
manic steeple
sweet nexus
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the void particles are triggered because that's where the Knight's mind is
the "lack of essence" isn't a lack of essence at all, as essence particles still appear when TK is remembering PK's words during the climb

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once again, an "essenceless dream" can't exist because it fundamentally conflicts with how Seer describes their composition

sly pivot
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I understand Tammo's critcism just fine, and address them extensively and why I think they're wrong. I stand by my conclusions.
(love being accused of being 'willfully dishonest' and 'incapable of responding to criticism' when i wrote a massive doc addressing all criticisms and supporting it with as much evidence as I could...)

sly pivot
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It refers to the idea that the Void has the capacity for mind and memory without Essence, and also has a 'dream' equivalent - i.e. a mental landscape made from those mind and memories. So yes, a 'dream' made of Void, rather than Essence. This I argue is what we're seeing in the Birthplace event.

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As I say in the doc

While the term ‘dream’ might not be appropriate for this Void-based equivalent, owing to the term being so closely associated with Essence, it is the same general principle - a landscape born of mind and memory that the dream nail is evidently able to access.
I've never used the term 'Essenceless dream' myself, because it's goofy and only unserious goofs use it - I tend towards calling it a 'Void-based mental landscape'.

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As for Seer not saying anything about this, she shows no sign of knowing what the Void is, so you wouldn't expect her to go out of her way to say 'oh this also works with Void'. NPCs are not omniscient gods.

sly pivot
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When Essence is inside something, the dream nail reveals it, including with Void beings - the Kingsmould corpse holding White Palace, THK themselves, etc. The Knight uniquely displays Void instead of Essence.

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(you don't get bits of corpse flying around when dream-nailing a corpse either, if Essence is in a thing, the Essence is what's revealed)

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the only essence you see in the Abyss Memory is in the 'dream nail dialogue box' - it is the dream nail (a blade of Essence) conveying the thoughts of its target via a UI window.
The essence in said UI window being from the dream nail is the explanation that has the least amount of inconsistencies in the visual story-telling.

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In any case this is still a UI element, like the geo counter or Soul meter, and not part of the Abyss Memory environment itself
the Abyss Memory is still unique in that it's a mental landscape lacking in any environmental essence.

sweet nexus
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and that "somewhere" is the Knight's mind

sly pivot
# sweet nexus except it is part of the memory itself because Seer states that the Dream Nail r...

the essence in the dream nail dialogue box is coming from the dream nail
the dream nail is reading the Knight's mind
the memory is coming from the Knight's mind
the Knight's mind has no essence - the essence in the dream nail dialogue box is from the dream nail - it's the dream nail dialogue box
i.e. a dialogue box the dream is using to convey the thoughts/memories of the thing it's being used on (the Knight)

sweet nexus
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if the dream nail reads from essence and is a blade made out of essence then the Knight's mind has it
for the Nth time dreams are made out of essence

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even if the dream nail itself is made out of essence it doesn't change that the DN had to have obtained that information from another place that has it

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by your "logic" the dream nail shouldn't be able to read anything at all because there wouldn't be any essence for the DN to read in the first place

undone solstice
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Sorry if I misunderstood something, but if void minds are so similar to essence minds that they are functionally identical in the case of the dream nail and Radiance, why would an essenceless void mind be incapable of succumbing to The Radiance?

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And is the implication that Void Minds are separated from the physical realm by the same veil the Dream Nail breaks

manic steeple
sweet nexus
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yes, via Seer's description of its function

undone solstice
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As Serrara said the Dream Nail is said to work by splitting the veil between the waking world and dreams

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So for this theory to hold up, it would need to be either breaking a different veil, or void minds are separated by the same veil, neither of which are substantiated by the observation that there is no essence particles from The Knight

sweet nexus
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the observation is fundamentally wrong as well

undone solstice
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AFAIK the observation that there's no essence particles when DNing the knight is true, its just the conclusion drawn from that which is wrong and makes little sense

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Also the dialogue box has essence and I know this is handwaved away by saying its more muted or something but its still visibly essence

manic steeple
undone solstice
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What could it be figurative of

manic steeple
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I think it could just be figurative of the separation between real world and someone/something's mind

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And in case of Yak's argument, they are saying that Void and Void beings does have a mind, just one that isnt based on essence

undone solstice
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The veil is the name used by Seer for that separation

manic steeple
manic steeple
undone solstice
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The Hollow Knight isn't "infected"

manic steeple
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He shows symptoms of it

undone solstice
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Not the characteristic detail of having its mind enslaved

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Its purely physical

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THK resists in its bossfight

manic steeple
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I think Yak explains that by differenciating between living infected and dead infecteds

undone solstice
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Both of those have an enslaved mind

manic steeple
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Dead infecteds are termed "husks" in the game. They only act based on ingrained instinct

manic steeple
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They dont attack you outside the arena, like at the bench below

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Theyre eventually gonna die and turn into a husk, but not yet

undone solstice
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These ones are hostile in the fighting area where they would've done fighting in life and not in the resting area where they would've made a habit of resting

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The game makes no implication that "alive" infected can resist The Radiance

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Its always portrayed as a futile effort

undone solstice
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The dream nail isn't implied to have a mechanism that can break the veil between the physical realm and non essence minds, probably because HK never implies there are even minds that aren't based off of essence

manic steeple
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The void seems to have a mind of its own

manic steeple
manic steeple
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Which is where the PK plans to put the radiance in

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If the void has nothing of the sort, then where would the Radiance be sealed in? As Yak said, the Radiance lives in the mind, if pure vessels really has no mind, how would it even hold the radiance?

manic steeple
sly pivot
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What I am trying to convey is that the dream nail,
in addition to working on minds that have Essence,
can evidently also work on the mind of a Void being even if they don't have Essence.

The Void, though lacking Essence, has the capacity for mind and memory such that the dream nail can still access it, entering a mental landscape made of that mind and memory.
A 'dream' (i.e. mental landscape) based on Void, rather than Essence.

As I said earlier:

While the term ‘dream’ might not be appropriate for this Void-based equivalent, owing to the term being so closely associated with Essence, it is the same general principle - a landscape born of mind and memory that the dream nail is evidently able to access.

Turns out, in addition to all the stuff with it does Essence, the dream nail can also do this with Void. Who knew!
Only people who believe visual story-telling is valid.

sly pivot
sly pivot
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The idea is that the Void is imperceptible to certain beings, hence them always describing it in terms of 'absence'.
If Void and Essence are like languages, then without Essence these beings can't seem to 'read' Void - as if there is 'no mind' etc.
This is why White Lady says she cannot sense the Knight's emotions, and sees them as free of 'instilled ideas' vs. THK (THK has visible Essence, TK doesn't)
This is why Radiance describes TK as 'THE EMPTY ONE' etc. etc.

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Since Rad's powers require her to tailor a temptation to her victim's mental state, being unable to perceive their mental state means she's got nothing to work with.
She's just floundering around in darkness forever.

As to TK reading their own mind with the dreamnail, well, they're a Void being using a magical mind-reading tool to read their own mind, that could make the difference.

sly pivot
# undone solstice And is the implication that Void Minds are separated from the physical realm by ...

I don't know about where a 'Void-based mental landscade' would fit into the whole 'dream expanse' geography.
We've got the dream realm, we've got the nightmare realm that is split apart from it in some way but still accessible via dream nail...
Maybe Void minds are in the same general 'mindspace' along with dream-related stuff.
Maybe they've got their own thing that the dream nail can still access.
I don't know how many veils there are. If any - maybe Dudekc is right and 'cutting the veil' was only ever a metaphor for what the dream nail is doing.
'Dream nail cuts into minds' is the core idea I argue is at work.

sly pivot
sly pivot
# undone solstice The Hollow Knight isn't "infected"

Also yeah, the Hollow Knight is absolutely infected, displaying both physical and mental symptoms - they are compelled to violent action against TK.
I go into this in the doc, there's a bit on the Infection, but it's a misconception that getting Infected instantly brings you completely under Rad's control.
It's a slow, gradual progression where Radiance gains increasing control over time until you're finally reduced to a mindless husk, it's not instantaneous.

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The struggle is futile in that you can't win - you will break down and become a husk eventually.
But futile isn't impossible - until you've broken down, you can resist to a degree. We see this with Myla. We're told about it with Slobbering Husk.
THK gives every sign of being almost but not quite at the 'mindless broken husk' state.

sly pivot
# manic steeple Was it ever established that the DN can *only* read essence?

In fact neither Seer nor any in-game descriptions of the dreamnail state 'it can only work on Essence', or some similar explicitly restrictive statement
In-game descriptions talks about the dreamnail in terms of Essence, but never explicitly states that it can only work with Essence.
They just omit mention of it working with anything else.
Just because an NPC doesn't tell us something is possible doesn't make it impossible.
It was only ever an assumption that it only works with Essence, because that's all we were ever told, but I think we're shown something more.

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The game is full of examples of 'Show, Don't Tell', and I argue is one of them.
While we aren't explicitly told the dreamnail works on Void, we're clearly shown this in the Birthplace.

And even if there were some explicit statement from Seer that the dreamnail only works on Essence - again, there isn't - but if there were?
This would just mean Seer was clearly mistaken. NPCs are not infallible.

manic steeple
manic steeple
sly pivot
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Maybe this is different from a full on dream dive, and maybe the Knight's shell does play a part - holding the Shade so the dreamnail can reach deeply into it.

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To me this difference is another sign of the Shade/Siblings lack of Essence, because the Collector is a Void being that also lacks a shell, but their Essence is readily visible and perceptible to the dreamnail, and the dreamnail doesn't have the same effect of instantly defeating them.

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Re. the egg, I think that's unlikely because the Abyss Memory is the Knight's memory after they've hatched, and are ascending the Abyss. The egg wouldn't hold those memories.

manic steeple
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Does dreamnailing shade/siblings give soul?

manic steeple
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got someone to check for me, it doesnt

sly pivot
undone solstice
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By generalizing it as "minds" you're assuming there are even minds that aren't based off of essence in the first place

sweet nexus
sly pivot
# undone solstice If we're going to take it figuratively we have to acknowledge that the core mean...

The dream realm is probably all Seer ever knew about in terms of what the dreamnail interacts with.
I'm pretty sure she knows nothing about the Void.
She never mentions Void, has no reaction to the Void Heart, refers to her Ancient Egg only as a 'relic'...
I doubt she knows anything about the Void or its capacities, or that she has any idea about how the dreamnail would interact with the Void or a Void being's mind.

Essence was likely all the moths had ever known about and intended the dreamnail to interact with.
Its interactions with Void would be an unforeseen effect.
I do not see this as an issue for the theory. The moths aren't omniscient gods.

sly pivot
# undone solstice By generalizing it as "minds" you're assuming there are even minds that aren't b...

I am concluding that there are minds comprised of something other than Essence - Void in this case - because Void is what I see reacting when the Knight is dreamnailed, instead of Essence.

While Essence is what usually forms the thoughts and minds of bugs, and Essence is what we see reacting when something containing it is dreamnailed, the Void reacts instead in the case of the Knight.

I thereby conclude that the Void is what forms the contents of the Knight's mind.
Void, not Essence, is what compromises their thoughts and memories.
It is enough like Essence that the dreamnail is able to react with it when used by TK.

I think this is consistent with the Void as a power of both absence and great potential.
It lacks Soul, but acts as its own kind of ravenous animating lifeforce. Life without Soul.
Same thing with its mental state. It has its own capacity for mind and memory, without evident Essence. Mind without Essence.

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All very spooky, all very eldritch. All very appropriate for the power of nothingness, I feel.

(I am also intrigued by what mossbag mentioned earlier about the Steel Masters having 'minds other', but who knows if we'll ever learn what that means...)

sly pivot
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Dreams are mental landscapes comprised of Essence that the dreamnail can access.
What I am arguing is that the Void has a similar capacity for mental landscapes comprised of Void instead of Essence that the dreamnail can also evidently access.

I have repeatedly described this concept of a Void-based mental landscape not as 'dream' in the typical sense, but the Void equivalent of one. As I said, again:

While the term ‘dream’ might not be appropriate for this Void-based equivalent, owing to the term being so closely associated with Essence, it is the same general principle - a landscape born of mind and memory that the dream nail is evidently able to access.

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The dreamnail works on mental landscapes comprised of Essence, i.e. dreams
We are told this. We are shown this.
The dreamnail works on mental landscapes comprised of Void.
We are not told this. We are shown this.

Now, you might not agree with my reasoning or conclusions. That's fine.
But do you at least understand the concept?
Because you keep repeating 'dreams are made of Essence!' as if I'm not aware of this fact and like it's some kind of defeater for this idea.
I am and it's not.

undone solstice
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Claiming TK doesn't have essence because there are only void particles in the DN effect is like claiming the Kingsmoulds aren't void because there is only essence in their DN effect

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Its especially 🥴 when the dream itself does show clear signs of having essence in it

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Couple this with an NPC who is consistently portrayed as knowledgeable and reliable describing the Dream Nails function in a way that doesn't include void and yeah

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Also dreamgate wouldn't work if The Knight had no essence

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Yes, you're starting to see them. The connections between us and the DREAMS WE LEAVE BEHIND, like prints in the dust. The time has come for you to learn how to revisit the places connected to you!

Hold the Dream Nail tight, wielder, and imagine a great gate opening before you!

Some areas may lack a strong connection to any dream, disallowing use of the Dreamgate.

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Also I was mistaken its not just Seer's dialogue that describes how the dream nail functions its also the item description for Dream Nail itself which states its used for dreams

manic steeple
undone solstice
undone solstice
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Therefore the entire concept is undermined

manic steeple
undone solstice
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No it isn't

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Yak understands that dreams are made of essence he's clarified that

manic steeple
undone solstice
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The term used to describe The Knight's thoughts is dreams

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Both by Seer and the game itself

manic steeple
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You mean the dialogue you just brought up?

undone solstice
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Yes

manic steeple
undone solstice
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Scroll up a little

undone solstice
manic steeple
undone solstice
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I bolded the part about The Knight having dreams

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In HK beings who think leave behind dreams which connect them back to these locations
The Knight has these connections
Therefore The Knight leaves behind dreams

manic steeple
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"yes, youre starting to see them. The connections between us and the dreams we leave behind."

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Nothing about The Knight having it

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Just that they can see it

undone solstice
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Reading comprehension devil

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Read the very next sentence

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Dreamgate operates by exploiting the connection the Wielder (The Knight) has to previous places its visited through dream

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The time has come for you to learn how to revisit the places connected to you!

manic steeple
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Hmm

manic steeple
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If the Knight does Dream, and they have and can leave behind Essence, why would there be any place they cant reach because they "lack a strong connection to any dream"

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Because the Knight could just use theirs

undone solstice
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They didn't leave behind any strong imprints

manic steeple
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Why tho

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Do you think the Knight is a pure vessel?

undone solstice
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Does it really matter

undone solstice
manic steeple
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Aight thats fair

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I was gonna say that if the Knight was a pure vessel, then they shouldnt have more connection with one area compared to another

undone solstice
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Also I think its possible some areas are just more separated from the dream realm than others if that makes sense

manic steeple
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I think that would make sense if the knight is hollow and cannot leave behind imprints of their own dream therefore unable to bring them (the area) closer to the dream realm

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Actually nah that doesnt make sense since the Seer herself knows that some places cant be dreamgated to

sweet nexus
sly pivot
# undone solstice Claiming TK doesn't have essence because there are only void particles in the DN...

Except we know the Kingsmoulds are Void beings, and we have examples of what it looks like when Void beings contain Essence.
Kingsmoulds have Essence instilled in them, and it's very evident when they are dreamnailed, with readily apparent surface thoughts and Essence shown when dream-diving.

When Essence is present in a Void being, it's very evident.
It's absent in the case of the Knight.

If the dreamnail only worked on Essence, and TK had Essence, it should reveal it.
If the dreamnail only worked on Essence, and TK had none, it should have no effect.
Instead, it has the effect of revealing Void in place of Essence.

This is visual story-telling completely unique to the Knight.
No other Void being shows anything like this.

sly pivot
# undone solstice Its especially 🥴 when the dream itself does show clear signs of having essence ...

If you're talking about the Abyss Memory and the dreamnail dialogue boxes that appear, I already addressed this point.
Those are dreamnail dialogue boxes - HUD elements that the dreamnail is using to convey thoughts and memories from the target to the user.
In this case, it's the dreamnail showing TK their own memories.

They are HUD elements not actually present in the Abyss Memory, any more than the Soul Meter or Geo Counter are present when they are shown.
Nothing like the glowing, animated Essence that you see during every other dreamdive.
The Essence in the dialogue boxes is more plausibly attributed to the dreamnail itself than the Knight. That interpretation results in the fewest inconsistencies with the visual story-telling.

I go into this more in the first main section of the doc, under 'Abyss Memory'.

sly pivot
sly pivot
# undone solstice Also I was mistaken its not just Seer's dialogue that describes how the dream na...

I feel like I've addressed this sufficiently with my earlier comment.

In fact neither Seer nor any in-game descriptions of the dreamnail state 'it can only work on Essence', or some similar explicitly restrictive statement
In-game descriptions talks about the dreamnail in terms of Essence, but never explicitly states that it can only work with Essence.
They just omit mention of it working with anything else.

My answer wouldn't change much. An omission is not a negation, especially when there's an example to the contrary.

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I'm curious, what sort of statement would Seer or the inventory have to make to confirm my theory?

"By the way, the dreamnail also works on this stuff called Void, which you probably haven't run into yet, but it works on that too!"
Or similar?

Don't you think that would be a monumental spoiler of one of the most important elements of the game, awkwardly forced on the player long before it would be relevant?

sly pivot
# undone solstice > Yes, you're starting to see them. The connections between us and the **DREAMS ...

TK travels using dreamgates that they leave behind using the dreamnail. Those are 'the dreams left behind,' connecting the place to the Knight.
That's what they use to travel, from wherever they are, through the dreamrealm, to where the gate is (consuming the dreamnail's own Essence doing so).
Which is all they can do - they can't just go anywhere they've been.
It's not a dream from TK made of their own Essence that they are leaving behind. It's all the dreamnail.

All the functions of the dream nail that require imagination or Essence are readily available to the Knight, as they clearly have a mind, while the dream nail itself provides Essence for the various dream-based magics that require it, like dream diving or creating dreamgates.

The Knight having memories of places they've been, or using the dreamnail to travel to them... none of this entails the Knight having Essence.

sweet nexus
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yak, i'm sorry to say this but as a moderator, i'm finding some of your conduct to be very disrespectful towards people who give both completely valid criticisms and objections towards the arguments presented in your document.

undone solstice
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???

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Literally nothing said was inflammatory

undone solstice
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But as it stands its a tool that specifically works for the Dream Realm

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Therefore, unless implied otherwise, using it implies its working on a dream

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I know you think this implication is there but its really not, there is no implication that Void has the capacity for mind without essence so the entire point is moot

sly pivot
# sweet nexus yak, i'm sorry to say this but as a moderator, i'm finding some of your conduct ...

What.
I have never been anything but respectful with my interactions with the people in this community, both here and elsewhere.
I make every effort to address criticisms offered as completely as I can and point out why I disagree, always addressing the arguments and never attacking the people making them.

You want to talk about disrespectful? You brought Tammo in here, and the only thing he did was accuse me of being dishonest and incapable of understanding or addressing criticism.
Utterly laughable given how much effort I've put into inviting discourse and addressing every possible criticism I could find, as comprehensively as I possibly could.

And that's one of the kinder aspersions he's cast at me over this topic.

Didn't see a word of caution against him.

sly pivot
undone solstice
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😭

undone solstice
meager jewel
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Holy yap

manic steeple
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Literally one of the most respectful back and forth

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And somehow its "inflammatory"

gleaming bane
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just found this doc and i have to say it’s very well-written

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bravo

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the discourse in this thread itself is another story

manic steeple
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Its gonna be the next partisan split in the community

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Like "Is Hornet void" all over again

somber karma
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not tryna argue or anything abt lore even if i disagree that tk is a pure vessel lol i just think in terms of storytelling itd fall very flat

undone solstice
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"It'd be bad writing" used to be the most compelling argument against it until we learned TC were bad writers

dry matrix
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The strays bruh

dry matrix
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  • I think u hatin too much
undone solstice
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No such thing as hating too much

gleaming bane
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i see people theorising that the knight saving hornet at the end of true ending is evidence that they "aren't pure" - is there any basis to this?

worthy otter
sly pivot
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@gleaming bane @worthy otter
That's the view that a pure vessel must literally lack things like will and emotion.
But I think that view is based on a misconception about Pale King's words.

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His spiel about 'no mind, no will, no voice' etc. isn't a list of literal requirements.
For one thing, the whole plan was to trap Radiance in a vessel's mind, so he wouldn't want a vessel that literally didn't have one.
And if the 'no mind' bit isn't meant to be literal, there's no reason the other bits would be.
His words are an allusion to some other idea.

gleaming bane
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so the fact that it experiences gratitude or whatever willed it to save hornet isn’t antithetical to its “purity” or otherwise the radiance’s lack of ability to eventually infect the knight like it did with THK?

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i guess that makes sense because really there’s no reason to suggest that dreams = emotion at all

sly pivot
sweet nexus
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the opposite also applies: they cannot be taken as signs that they are one, either

wild sphinx
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It's amazing how well this doc aligns with my own intuition about how vessels work, I've read all of the main sections and have yet to find a supporting point that I fully disagree with.
I especially like how it doesn't require the pale beings to act especially foolishly or dellusionally in order to explain why their plan failed. Their desperate actions were taken because they truly saw hope that their kingdom could be saved.

sweet nexus
wild sphinx
sweet nexus
wild sphinx
# sweet nexus read this

"claiming TK doesn't have essence because there are only void particles in the DN effect is like claiming the Kingsmoulds aren't void because there is only essence in their DN effect"

  • there is no clear correlation between the two arguments, the latter is much weaker because the dream nail accesses the mind of the target and not necessarily the substance they are comprised of

"It's especially 🥴 when the dream itself does show clear signs of having essence in it"

  • the only dream particles in the birthplace cutscene are the ones shown in the pale king's dialogue, which have been addressed in the doc as being a property of the dream nail and not the target struck

"couple this with an NPC who is consistently portrayed as knowledgable and reliable describing the Dream Nails function in a way that doesn't include void and yeah"

  • this was also addressed in the doc, the fact that it is described as a tool to access essence-based dreams does not necessarily restrict it from being a tool to access mindscapes more generally. I think we can assume from the way it interacts with the siblings that the dream nail was not made for accessing the minds of void creatures who lack dreams, so it makes sense that seer would not describe it as such
#

so far this is pretty unconvincing to me

sweet nexus
# wild sphinx > "claiming TK doesn't have essence because there are only void particles in the...
  • the dream nail by its definition is an object that reads minds; the blade is made of and can read essence, and there is no evidence to suggest it can read any other substance without the presence of Essence within said substance
  • those dream particles in question are contained within a memory which is accessed via the dream nail, and is explicitly being "remembered" by the Knight; the doc's reification of the dialogue somehow being intrinsic to the DN itself and not the mind it is reading, is itself intentionally ignorant of how both Seer & the item itself describe its function
  • to claim that the dream nail can read the contents of things that (according to the doc) do not contain essence whatsoever is an absurd conclusion & is also baseless; the only void creatures that may lack dreams of their own are Void Tendrils, which Vessels are not
wild sphinx
# sweet nexus - the dream nail by its definition is an object that reads minds; the blade is m...

"the dream nail by definition is an object that reads minds; the blade is made of and can read essence, and there is no evidence to suggest it can read any other substance without the presence of Essence within said substance"

  • the dream nail is not 'defined' in the game; it is described, and certainly could have capabilities that have not been explicitly spoken of
  • the tool functions using essence, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can only read essence
  • for evidence that the dream nail can read substances other than essence, there is the birthplace memory itself, where the knight seems to release void instead of essence and enters a dream with no floating essence particles
#

"those dream particles in question are contained within a memory which is accessed via the dream nail, and is explicitly being "remembered" by the Knight; the doc's reification of the dialogue somehow being intrinsic to the DN itself and not the mind it is reading, is itself intentionally ignorant of how both Seer & the item itself describe its function"

  • there is no evidence that the UI element is styled as dream particles specifically because the mind it is reading is made of essence. the doc provides evidence that this dialogue UI does not represent the substance of the mind being read, and since the knight is using the dream nail to self-dream-dive we have good reason to think that they are hearing TPK's words through the dream nail as normal
  • your description of the doc being 'intentionally ignorant' seems overly accusatory, to me the doc seems very diligent and comprehensive
#

"to claim that the dream nail can read the contents of things that (according to the doc) do not contain essence whatsoever is an absurd conclusion & also baseless; the only void creatures that may lack dreams of their own are Void Tendrils, which Vessels are not"

  • the claim is far from baseless, there are many supporting points and pieces of evidence throughout the doc
  • the claim that void tendrils are the only void creatures without essence is itself baseless, as nowhere is it stated or shown that Void Tendrils are the only void creatures that fall into this category
wild sphinx
#

to counter the evidence, one should provide their own evidence that the dream nail specifically cannot access minds which are not essence-based.
otherwise, it seems to be a baseless claim that the dream nail's function is limited to only work on minds it was designed for

sly pivot
sly pivot
sly pivot
# sweet nexus - the dream nail by its definition is an object that reads minds; the blade is m...

The document in no way suggests what you are claiming it does in #2, and states multiple times that the dream nail accesses the mind of the target it's used on.

From the doc:

The dream nail lets the Knight read the thoughts of its target - the dialogue box is the dream nail conveying those thoughts to the player.
-The Knight & Essence, page 16

Typically, when the Knight strikes an enemy with the dream nail, they perceive dream nail dialogue from that enemy.
-The Knight & Essence, page 20

As with all cases of dream nail dialogue, the dream nail is conveying the thoughts of the entity it's being used on. The dream nail reads the thoughts of the target, and uses the dream nail dialogue box to convey their thoughts to the player.
In this case, the dream nail is being used by the Knight to awaken and access their own memories.
-Question, page 19

#

If you've read some part of the doc that still gave you the impression it was suggesting that dream nail dialogue was originating with the dream nail and not the mind of its target, even after the doc repeatedly stated the opposite multiple times, then tell me what part was giving you that impression. I will consider revising it for further clarity.

sly pivot
#

The dream nail reveals no Essence. Only Void.
No light. Only darkness.
'A pure vessel is a vessel without dreams, the perfect cage for a god that preys on dreamers.'
Fuckin' rad.

fiery ore