#is the knight actually pure?

157 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

uneven depot
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We know the white lady says something along the lines of "...but this vessel has not these features" (in reference to the hollow knight being impure) but would she know?

wheat widget
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they are not, and she would not be able to tell regardles

wraith zephyr
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what joker said lol

brave badger
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I don't think notions such as "will" are clearly enough defined to answer this question.

wheat widget
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“Is the knight pure”
“No”
Will doesn’t need to be clearly defined to answer this question

wraith zephyr
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if pale king is completely wrong and we just use the definition of "sealing radiance forever" then still, i see no significant difference between TK and THK that would let TK be able to seal her for the rest of time

forest sand
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I mean, I think so.
(But nobody else does.)

wraith zephyr
wet turtle
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Pure enough to do the job of holding the radiance but i don’t think it’s a good long term solution.

wheat widget
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that’s not what purity is zote

brisk eagle
wet turtle
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i think if TK didn't form a bond with anyone and just went straight to holding the Radiance, he could probably hold her indefinetely. This is assuming that the reason THK couldn't hold Radiance was because he formed a bond with the Pale King

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it all depends on if PK original plan would have actually worked or not

wheat widget
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they have that capacity they’d fail regardless

wet turtle
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capacity for what?

wraith zephyr
wraith zephyr
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THK was always impure

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anyway that also doesnt really matter actually

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even if THK was made impure it still would have been useless to contain the radiance even if they never formed a connection with him

wet turtle
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I mean if that is how you see it

wraith zephyr
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if a vessel could be MADE impure then the radiance could do just that, rendering it useless

wet turtle
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If you say so. I don’t agree but your take seems reasonable enough

forest sand
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depends on what's involved in making them impure
if it's something Radiance can't do, you're good
you just need to avoid whatever does do it

latent night
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That's the issue when talking about eternity. The Radiance could've certainly done it eventually if there's a way considering it likely doesn't age.
I mean you'd just need to have long enough for everyone to forget about her or something but shh

coarse turret
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I trust Hornet more than the white lady on this one, and she seems to think sealing the radiance would only prolong Hallownest's stasis, which to me means The Knight couldn't hold The Radiance forever, which would mean it's not pure

dusty lion
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When the knight falls in acid, it shows pain and panic, so it's not pure

wraith zephyr
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if she had some way to tell then she would have before

wraith zephyr
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its just so painfully obvious that the knight has a will

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like voidheart downright states it

coarse turret
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"Unifies the Void under the bearer's will" yeah

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I've actually seen people argue that "oh, but it only gains a will after getting voidheart"

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I think at this point they're just trying to cope with the "bad ending", which I guess I can relate to

wraith zephyr
sage elk
coarse turret
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yeah, which is why I put quotation marks

wet turtle
# wraith zephyr sure but what is your counter argument

Because we only have evidence of one vessel being impure and are given a reason (or cause) to why. We can allow for room that TK can be pure because vessels because no said vessels are inherently impure. Like I said I get what you mean but I don’t see evidence of that being true, it’s just a possibility that TK wasn’t pure because all vessels are impure.

wraith zephyr
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pale king's definition? holding the radiance forever?

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also, where is the proof that THK "became" impure because of the PK

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we have evidence of their impurity but not evidence for the cause

wet turtle
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As I understand what the intent of the vessels are (to hold in the radiance). “Pure” is essentially the ability to do what you were designed to do.

THK is “tarnished” because of an”instilled idea”. The game alludes what this idea is with the path of pain…PK has something to do with THK being “instilled”.

I asked someone earlier on their thoughts but i wonder if because PK has the ability to provide higher thought to small minds. PK (being close to THK) gave it higher thought, ie the “idea” that was instilled.

I think TK wasn’t “instilled” by anything so it would still be “pure”. Now this again depends on if we assume that PK plan would have been successful (which i am led to believe in some part) but he just happen to mess up the plan.

wraith zephyr
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i need to know your criteria for purity before i can counter anything about it

wet turtle
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Yes and No. I think PK theorized that vessels would follow his “postulates” perhaps because of his perception of Void (and it’s properties). His postulates are wrong imo because again I chalk this up to ignorance about void.

However, the idea of using void to contain because Radiance’s light shouldn’t be able to grab onto the mind of a vessel nor escape the containment because of the void…that i think actually would have worked.

My criteria is heavily dependent on PK have the right idea for combating Radiance. TK is not said to be “tarnished” like THK, who who was said to be tarnished…resulting in him not being able to hold radiance. So logically if TK has something that THK doesn’t have (that X component that caused THK to fail), then he should be able to do that job that THK wasn’t able to do. In that instance I consider TK “pure”.

wraith zephyr
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the thing is the white lady is a million times less reliable than actual game item descriptions

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if she really could tell if a vessel is pure, why not do it before?

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with THK?

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she is desperate for the infection to stop. item descriptions cant be desperate

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voidheart very clearly states that we have a will, and dreamnail (in my opinion) suggests we have a mind

wet turtle
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I don’t understand why White lady is unreliable but okay.

Secondly, i did said that Pk’s postulates (no mind to think…) I think are wrong. But his idea of using void and what it functionally can do…yeah probably would have worked.

wraith zephyr
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if she could then why didnt she do it before?

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she decides youre perfect to contain the radiance as soon as you walk in

wet turtle
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She can tell if TK has the same taint that THK has, that is all we really need to make an assumption.

wraith zephyr
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where does it say she could sense it?

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she says THK was "tainted" because it ended up failing

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again, if she CAN tell why didnt she do it before?

wet turtle
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She tells TK that he is free of that “blemish”.

The reason she couldn’t tell if THK wasn’t pure enough…is because, like everyone else, they found out post taking in the radiance.

White Lady, being the mother of thk and TK, she has some awareness of their physical state. She was probably able to tell what the issue was with THK, after he took in Radiance. She was able to tell what the issue was, component X,. She doesn’t see component X is in TK.

How can you tell if you are going to have a bad reaction to something before you are exposed? Same with the white lady. She is their mother, she is able to determine if there are changes to her children. Such as if TK has a charm on, she can tell even when her eyes are weak. That “extra sensory” ability is probably how can distinguish the capabilities between THK and TK.

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Can she read their minds, no. But she can “feel” them and their physical state.

forest sand
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You're positing that basically she knows what to look for this time around?

wet turtle
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Essentially.

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Now what I will say is this. I am not sure if having Void heart (the charm) makes TK more “pure” or just as “pure” without it.

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White lady doesn’t seem to know how capable TK is with that charm.

sage elk
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VH doesn't affect a vessel's purity/lack of it at all

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in fact WL straight up says that she can't tell

forest sand
wet turtle
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What i mean is with respect to say the first two endings where TK can either have the VH or not have it. I can say that in the first ending, TK (not having the blemish should be able to hold radiance indefinitely) vs the second (siblings ending). Is that blemish still gone with VH, that is what I am not sure of. In the Dream no more endings, it doesn’t matter if TK has a blemish because he literally is fighting radiance head on. But in the second ending, he isn’t combating Radiance.

forest sand
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imo the reason WL can't sense TK's feelings is a sign they don't have the blesmishes/instilled ideas that tarnished THK. If she could sense anything like that from them, that would be a sign of being blemished.
incidentally I find SS to be the most 'dangerous' ending, because Hornet's in there and who knows what her presence might cause

wet turtle
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Good point! I found SS not the most dangerous because no one can wake up hornet (and mess up the seal on the black egg) and our new THK is pure enough to hold radiance. Although the void in the room might kill her over time so that would eventually mess up the seal.

sage elk
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uh, did either of you forget that seal breaking bugs exist in Silksong?

wet turtle
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For the case of the black egg, we aren’t told of other ways of breaking the seal outside of messing with the dreamers.

So essentially, no I didn’t forget but I have no reason to worry about that possibility. You know

forest sand
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I never forget anything.

sage elk
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the bugs can break seals of binding, which is the same form of seal on the Temple itself, so it is another way of breaking said Seal

wet turtle
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All the same.

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I didn’t forget

wraith zephyr
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idk this feels suspicious

IMG_4400.png IMG_4401.png
wet turtle
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Well golden yak made a good point that the fact she can’t sense anything is probably a good sign.

latent night
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She also wonders if it does, which wouldn't be a question if she had the power to sense it.

wraith zephyr
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since im assuming the white lady is searching for something like that

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we would have to be assuming that the pale king was completely wrong and you can have bonds and a will but still be pure

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also, if the bond to PK was the reason of THK impurity, then wouldnt the bond to hornet mean TK is impure as well? thats not why i believe TK is impure but im using your logic here

sage elk
wraith zephyr
wet turtle
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Let’s go in layers

  1. I asked earlier if VH would be a hinderance to TK holding Radiance in the event that TK doesn’t fight Radiance directly

  2. White Lady having a deeper sense with regards to her children…she wouldn’t know because she doesn’t have same deeper sense for void.

  3. An “idea” was what tarnished THK. TK isn’t instilled with anything, or at least not the same thing that THK. The only thing missing between TK and THK is the PK, which means that PK connects to the instillation that came over THK, that didn’t come over TK.

  4. Colloquially we say “bond” because we see PK and THK together and we are shown a scene of them actually glancing at each other. We don’t know what “bond” entails, but we do know that PK is part of what caused THK to not be able to hold the Radiance.

  5. Hornet is not the same as Pk. The latter is known to have an impact on (some) those around him. Hornet doesn’t seem to possess that ability. Therefore, we can’t assume that a bond between Hornet and TK would have the effect as a bond between THK and PK.

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Plus White Lady actually encourages us to work with Hornet (iirc), so that would tell me that Hornet is not a risk factor for TK being tarnished.

sage elk
# wet turtle Let’s go in layers 1. I asked earlier if VH would be a hinderance to TK holding...
  1. no, because VH doesn't impact how a Vessel is intended to seal Radiance
  2. that...kind of contradicts your earlier point
  3. We don't know what that idea is, or if one even exists at all.
  4. And this isn't necessarily true either, because PK having feelings with THK doesn't ensure the inverse was true (THK having feelings with PK).
  5. This does not logically follow, as Nosk does change its form from TK to Hornet over the course of the game's events, and is known to have powers that elicit emotional responses.
wet turtle
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We know an idea exists because white lady says so, we don’t know what the idea is.

I would reread the 5 point because I am not saying that TK and Hornet don’t bond or have an emotional tie to each other.

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The rest of your points are fair.

sage elk
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@rancid yacht need your help

wet turtle
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(My avatar changed ^_^)

rancid yacht
wheat widget
wet turtle
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Have what naturally?

wheat widget
sage elk
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a mind, despite how one could interpret "no mind to think"

wet turtle
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I never argued that vessels don’t have minds

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I actually said previous that I think the PK postulates are false but based on his level of understanding of void.

wheat widget
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“The latter is known to have an impact on those around him. Hornet doesn’t seem to posses that ability”

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zote what exactly are you saying here if not that

wet turtle
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I didn’t the impact was giving a mind, i just said “impact”

wheat widget
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There wouldn’t be an impact

wet turtle
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Should I say instillation?

wheat widget
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you can already see that other bugs are not reliant on PK’s presence or are affected by it

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His mere presence would not cause an idea to be instilled

wet turtle
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Yes and no. Being around the PK simply didn’t cause the instillation, like immediately. However we know that the “idea” that was instilled PK is related too.

wheat widget
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you are conflating two different things

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It also makes no sense to assert that a bond between those two groups would have different effects

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That is just grasping at straws

wet turtle
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I can assert because I know one of them have the ability to affect bugs around them, and the other does not…in any capacity.

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Like i said, PK is part of the reason…how we don’t know

sage elk
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PK's ability is to uplift creatures, not to inherently bond with them

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he didn't do this to the vessels

wheat widget
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if you are going to assert that vessels have minds naturally PK’s ability to grant sapience is irrelevant to his vessel plan

wet turtle
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So yes you are correct but the other vessels didn’t spend considerably around of time with PK.

wheat widget
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That doesn’t matter

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More time would not have an affect with the way his beacon works

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The only thing that considerable amount of time does is give attachment. Which would also apply to Hornet

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You can’t have your cake and eat it too

wet turtle
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No that does matter. TK who is without blemish is not any different than THK minus the fact that the latter is “more developed” and spent time with PK.

Omg, hornet didn’t instill anything on TK. It is heavily implied that the “idea” instilled on the THK was from PK.

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I don’t know how PK instilled but I can say the idea probably came from PK.

wheat widget
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you’re acting like this idea instilled would be a result of just passive mental whatever and acting as though Hornet wouldn’t do the same by repeatedly interacting with TK to the point that Nosk uses her to entrap it

wet turtle
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Then let me clarify, i don’t know how the idea was instilled. What we do know is that PK has something to do with it.

wheat widget
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Okay and I’m saying that’s a pointless point to make

sage elk
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We don't know that either Missi, because it's never said what the idea instilled is

wheat widget
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Don’t ascribe it to something that only PK could do

wet turtle
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You don’t have to say, White Lady tells us that THK was tarnished because of an idea instilled….i didn’t just make that up.

wheat widget
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That’s wholly baseless. And that’s if you take the Pale Beings words to be correct, which the game already shows isn’t the case

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They do not have a proper understanding of vessel purity, this has been shown zote

wet turtle
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You don’t have to take Pale Being at their words, I have no reason to not believe WL since she has a stronger affinity for the vessels

sage elk
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and yet her roots can only perceive damage to a vessel, not their "purity"

wet turtle
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They are not mutually exclusive to be fair

sage elk
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she's saying stuff about THK in retrospective tense

wet turtle
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No argument here

sage elk
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"ill-judged" being past tense, meaning that their judgment was wrong

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said judgment was at the Birthplace

wheat widget
wet turtle
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THK was illjudged yes, but that was a conclusion that White Lady would know after THK took in Radiance, not prior. Therefore, she can be used to assess if TK is worthy because she knows (cause she can feel THK) what the issue was.

I would go back in look the conversations prior because I think i touched on this point earlier.

Her affinity is still valuable. She can tell the state (albeit limited) of her vessels. For example, she reacts to the charms that TK is wearing. So it stands to reason she is able to feel and see in a more deep way when it comes to THK.

For all we know she might be able to “feel” radiance within THK given that she can feel internal changes with TK

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I don’t understand how the birthplace is the judgment

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On that note, TK probably “felt” the cry coming from THK. I think WL talks about she can “feel” THK resolve/strength weakening. So i think she does have not just retrospection “feels” but also present “feels” for TK and THK.

sage elk
wet turtle
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Can you elaborate further?

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The birthplace (judgement) was wrong?

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Oh wait

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No I don’t think that WL is saying that PK chose the wrong vessel from the jump.

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I say that because TK came from the same place. So if TK is supposed to be without blemish but THK is with that blemish. Then THK would have had the “blemish” post being chosen. If that makes any sense

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Again outside of development and time with PK, TK and THK really aren’t so different