#Make build-shaming & over-comparison a mod-punishable action and cease account elitism

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

robust otter
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This is an unsurprisingly common issue anywhere but...here's where I'm at.
"you don't have SS3?"
"Your WarZone score is ?#$%"
"Why you running this/that person?"

Have you gotten messages like these? Have you perhaps thought to casually throw on a LIVE in a Voice Chat and got badgered/cast offense for a build/unit you were running?
I think that should be put to a cease. This is a public server where all sorts of viewpoints, manner of play, race social background and all that come into play. Perhaps you're a free-to-play who doesn't have a proper Ice unit, and some random, most likely a CN or veteran player, who doesn't even KNOW you, opens your stream or joins your discussion, makes an assumption based on 5 seconds of gameplay, and gives you a hard time. This leads to a bunch of nasty possible scenarios. Account elitism is one of the largest problems in the server.

Many veterans don't remember the struggle of being F2P or managing resources, and whales will surely never understand this. I just want people to check their opinions and elitism at the door, be driven to more open-ended and neutral critique, and let everyone play to their style or account-standard without reproach. Some people may say "get thicker skin" or some other uninspired, default and colorless response to this post, but I hope more people recognize this is indeed an issue and speak on it rather than laughing off/dismissing this as the norm and allowing it to continue. This is a mostly as I said, a problem that stems from CN/Veteran players who can't keep their mouths shut and opinions to themselves, and it should definitely stop. I'm just one of the few people bold enough to actually speak on it.

_ Malivolus, A Karenina Simp

shadow scroll
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Hi, this is taken from the pins in #📨・meta-help

Hi i'd like to remind everyone again that this chat will always recommend the most "meta" thing to do for a given question.  If you're going to come in here and ask something that you have a predetermined answer for and not listen then it's useless to post here.  People are not being toxic they just want to answer your question optimally.  Thank you have a good rest of your day everyone.
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If you feel like you are being the victim of toxicity, please report it to one of the moderators.

robust otter
vital berry
robust otter
# vital berry but they were the one who wrote the original pin lmao

That LITERALLY doesn't matter, look at the subject matter of this post, and then look at that response. Really itemize what he said and compare it to my thesis here. Even an idiot can see his response doesn't fully match the issue at hand, and he lazily hit the copy-paste button instead of truly weighing in the situation, and you in this sense, are no better.

vital berry
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yeah lmao

robust otter
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Now just know I'm not trying to antagonize you by saying you're no better

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I say this because you chose to give me a shit answer instead of actually giving a real piece of dialogue

vital berry
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i mean your thesis is like roughly 2 paragraphs long but at the end of the day i think the issue stems down to a difference in the ideology of how people play anyway. Even if we remove cn veterans from the equation and make everyone equal in an ideal scenario at the end of the day pgr as a game that's open to higher levels of min maxing and equipment opitmizaiton means at that the end of the day there's always going to be the one true ideal build and that people will strive for that build. People will always want to see other people play meta because in some way it does feel like shit to see someone squandering their own account potential and value either because of ignorance or willful bricking.

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at the end of the day we really do have to actually ask why people build some characters the way they do because it really just doesn't make sense because either they don't know and take the set that appears to be the most commonly used to them, are misguided by the in game recommendations, or just want to play their own off meta

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pgr general is too busy either beating up mihoyo for the nth time this week or on their own goon shit so what you have left are just the players who are meta brained

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ofc i dont bother looking at anything below the top rows of this discord anyway so i dont know what goes on

vital berry
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damn no dice no response hmmSleeper

robust otter
# vital berry i mean your thesis is like roughly 2 paragraphs long but at the end of the day i...

Well the end part of your statement in this piece is the part that really started me making this thread. People also have to remember there are newer players in this server, there are people who don't understand the Memory and Evolution system right away, there are even people who don't understand the Ping system right away, or where to position their teammates. Everything else about the game comes from those core knowledge points and values, and some people, as they are newer, are forced to deal with what they have ON HAND and available rather than go straight for the meta. And most of the time in PGR, going straight for the meta usually means pulling out your wallet a couple times, cause not everybody has the Streamer Luck to pull 5 CWs or whatever to make a SSS+ version ya know

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--So what I'm saying is to expect every player to adhere to the meta is unrealistic, to walk into someone's gameplay stream and expect them to have top units for Warzone is even MORE unrealistic. Shaming people for doing what they can, or trying their best to explore OUTSIDE the meta is just offensive, and all too likely to start disagreements, negative back and forth, and it's because people don't know how to curb their expectations and just shut up and watch, or even better, just ASK in a friendly manner why they're running a certain unit or whatnot. Because you never know

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It's an ugly issue for sure, but most of it comes from the conceit, lack of empathy and elitism of those who've been around the block longer. And even if you bring this issue up to moderators, most of the mods are veteran players, so it can fall on deaf ears. You see how one mod took stance on this. A hand-wavy, tasteless and colorless response.

robust otter
robust otter
# vital berry i mean your thesis is like roughly 2 paragraphs long but at the end of the day i...

I only have to disagree with the "people will always want to see meta" because honestly speaking, I host VCs daily and from a F2P, non-meta experience. This in turn attracted a fair number of people who just wanna see a regular guy grind casually and gradually find his way to real power. I mean, if you only see the meta, the end and finished result, HOW WILL YOU KNOW HOW TO GRIND AS A WEAKER PLAYER.

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In this same vein, as a Warframe player, I used to upload content that showed how to build outside of meta and still be effective, which netted me thousands of views and even had people saying things like "thanks for showing me a more easy-to-acquire build that does the same thing as the meta."

There's always another way, a new meta to be found, and I intend to be the guy to find it

vital berry
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At the end of the day it's your account and your choice anyway to me

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I only came because I thought it was interesting enough to drop my thoughts on

shadow scroll
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There's the meta that will let you score highest and the non-meta where you probably can do well enough to beat others but it's not going to be "the best." There is no shaming here, and if there is, please report it to the moderators. As stated by the copy pasta, people will recommend only the most "meta" build and are not trying to shame or be toxic to anyone. The bottom line is an off-mets build will not outscore a meta build in any competitive mode. There is no argument about this.

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Nobody is dictating how someone should play the game. This game can be cleared with nothing but the starting 3 units with sub optimal play. But if someone wants to get more competitive in the competitive modes and asks for help, they will be given the most meta builds/ strategies.

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Just in case this still doesn't make sense, I will tl;dr it:

  1. People can play how they want
  2. Nobody will tell people how to play unless they ask
  3. Expect answers to be "optimal"
  4. Report toxicity you find
shadow scroll
# robust otter It's an ugly issue for sure, but most of it comes from the conceit, lack of empa...

As for this point, you made this thread on a moral high horse thinking that you and many others are victimized of being "build shamed." This is simply untrue which is why I had to pull out the pin that if you are going to ask a build question and get mad when somebody recommends the more "meta build," why even ask in the first place. If you have a preconceived answer of what you want, don't ask it in the one place where people will give you the optimal response

robust otter
# shadow scroll As for this point, you made this thread on a moral high horse thinking that you ...

wasn't even what this is about. And don't get indignant just because you're indirectly a target of this post. If you're not part of the problem, don't become one. Feel me? This got nothing to do with a "moral high horse" or whatever crap you conceived in your mind regarding this matter. And the fact that you aren't aware how often this issue occurs, both in chat and in voice parties, it also makes plain how unaware you are of what goes on. To summarize, you completely missed the point of my stance, even though I made it abundantly clear that my concern is not with inability to take advice, but literal build shaming and debate fueling due to a disconnect from reality by more experienced players/wallet warriors. try reading everything I said over again before you come in with another tasteless retort that only attempts to antagonize and discredit the other person, rather than make a genuine rebuttal

shadow scroll
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You provide this victimization of people without any noteworthy proof or reports. It makes it hard to believe this isn't just a blatant troll.

robust otter
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All I'm saying is this. Just cause you don't directly see it, doesn't mean it doesn't occur. And this post is also meant to deter any further behavior by calling it out

shadow scroll
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Then provide proof

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Report it

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We are not watching discord 24/7. If you make a report then we will be aware about it.

robust otter
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My experience is that it occurs mainly in the voice channels. That's not something I can readily provide proof from

shadow scroll
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Please report it when it happens so we can step in

robust otter
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Besides, in a way by making this thread, isn't this the same as reporting it?

shadow scroll
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We have modmail/ tickets for that reason

robust otter
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And a mod even responded at that

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I usually take passive-aggressive approaches to my problems. By making this post I did hope to see others come forward with any experiences they felt weren't friendly

shadow scroll
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At the end of the day, this is a game for people to enjoy and play how they want. As with any ideas in life, people will try to force their ideals on others. While it's hard to address it directly we can at least reiterate to people that there are different ways to play and enjoy this game

robust otter
shadow scroll
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A lot of people there are friends with each other who will drop 1 liners and leave for memes. No need to get upset for their sake.

robust otter
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"Have you gotten messages like these? Have you perhaps thought to casually throw on a LIVE in a Voice Chat and got badgered/cast offense for a build/unit you were running?
I think that should be put to a cease." **felt I should remind you that I made it perfectly clear why I made this thread from the start

shadow scroll
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Like yesterday on VC, me and Shuen are friends so I'll make fun of him for not doing ppc since he spends hours and hours getting the perfect run usually. Or I'll meme on him for having a whacky ppc niche build only when in theory it's actually the best for that specific boss/ strategy

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So it's also just more of a context thing as well.

robust otter
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Well it's basic cause and effect that if you come in acting like that, even if you think you're just casually trolling, somebody's not gonna like it.

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As I said, I really, by making this post, WANTED to confirm if others had similar experiences, not for some moral bullshite

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You gotta understand some people arent bold enough as I to make a thread, wanted to provide a place to come forward with it

shadow scroll
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Yes, but like I said there's no need for people to get upset for someone else's sake - especially when they do not understand the context. But a lot of the guys who do vc/ stream in voice are in a close clique with each other and will mess with each other. I understand why you would feel the need to make this thread, and just will leave it at "if you find something you feel like is toxic behavior, please report it to the mod team"

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We aren't always active 24/7 but if there's an issue occurring and we can catch it in the moment we will try our best to stop it before is escalates further

hexed musk
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Just passing by and I can say I do see both sides of the coin.

  1. I think build shaming is inevitable in this game, not that I agree with it. There are very clear optimal paths for scoring the best or doing the best you can. It's a competitive game after all. The recommendations in gameplay-help usually come with best intentions to try to help players excel and optimise their gameplay (which is generally tied to meta).

  2. However, there is evidently a skew towards meta-advice. New players or non-meta players etc., should also be able to come ask for advice to optimise their personal gameplay, meta or not. The problem is subtle and pretty community engrained. (I just noticed that this isn't the only feedback regarding gameplay-help too.) We should maybe be asking more often "are you F2P?" and "do you care for meta?". Most problems are not answerable with a one-size-fits-all (which is difficult, I understand).

  3. A few practical suggestions, if this even remainds a big enough problem for the server.

  1. Rename/rebrand to "gameplay-discussion" where the advice is not necessarily meta geared. Or this can be added under main lobbies.
  2. Split into "meta/competitive-advice" + whatever (gameplay-discussion) so the roles of the channels are clearer.

Personally, I'm a meta slave but I also like helping people regardless of their intentions of gameplay (brick or not). Thought I'd chime into this deep thread, since it is really so deep. AlphaPeek

robust otter
# hexed musk Just passing by and I can say I do see both sides of the coin. 1. I think build...

Yeah I agree with a few points you make here, but like with @shadow scroll , I made it clear that my issue is NOT with people who GENUINELY, and with no negative connotations, wanna give advice, such as @grizzled atlas and a few others, but those who just come straight in on your Share Screen in Voice Chat (specifically), and pass judgement on your setups, attempt to talk trash, or otherwise disturb the peace of those just playing casual. I perfectly well understand that there may be that one, optimal way of playing the game, BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NO OTHERS, And people should be ENCOURAGED to engage in at least SOME trial and error so they can think for themselves. You deny yourself the TRUE experience of the game in my eyes in that manner.

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I like your suggestions to re-brand gameplay-help into another title to more engage with the F2P/Global players. Because the main and overarching issue I find with this community is this: EVERYONE HERE SEEMS TO THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SSS+, THEY SHOULD HAVE THIS/THAT CHARACTER, OR BERATE YOU FOR NOT WAITING FOR/ROLLING FOR THIS/THAT CHARACTER... But listen!!!! There are CASUAL PGR Players!!! COLLECTOR PGR Players!!! STRICTLY F2P PGR Players!!! And yet the upper end of the community expects EVERYBODY'S ACOOUNT TO LOOK THE SAME!!! Maybe I didn't start during Under Dimension, or didn't like Lee, so I "Hyperskipped"!!! It's like, we're all individuals, you know?

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-Also, sorry for pinging a few of you here, but it helped with the context and to make my point, especially with Naj, that are some good apples in the meta-driven part of this community, but the others need to reign themselves in for real

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----I do appreciate the takes on this subjet though. It's one that, under the surface is a real problem, and via Voice Chats some others have given testimony to support why I made this. It's really that, people either don't come forward in this manner because theyre too scared of repercussions/negative back and forth, or didn't think the issue was as big as it actually is.

grizzled atlas
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@robust otter don’t ever ping me in some dumb shit like this.

violet haven
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Second, i never tried to do a Live/stream in voice chat in this server before and probably never will in good part for fear of people with not he best intentions or attitudes dropping by to talk shit. Also, because i'm not that comfortable speaking in big servers so it won't be that fun being all silent.
Personally, i only like to do live vc and actually speak in my guild server or in friendly guild servers where i know people is chill.
Now i don't say this to have you stop trying to do live and vc in this server.
If nothing else i'm impressed for the confidence. But the sheer amount of people will make hard not to expect some people to hop in and do/talk stuff... Wich is bad.
Just try and don't take those kind of comments seriously.
Not that helpfull i know. But not much we can do about it.

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Third, if you say other people has shared the same concerns i thinks it's valid for you to try and help in some way, like this post.
Maybe it wasn't the most optimal proper way/channel to do it, i don't really know myself, but way i see it that doesn't make this irrelevant or invalid. Also, maybe the wording could be better but i didn't see you insulting anyone so i feel surprised by some of the responses you got here.
You just wanted to help.

And yeah, i bet a lot of people wouldn't come forward like you with this issue because the fear of negative repercussions and comments.
After reading some of the responses you just got... i can't blame them.

robust otter
# violet haven Third, if you say other people has shared the same concerns i thinks it's valid ...

See it plain as day dontcha? Some of these fine people already exposed their own base natures by posting their two-cents in here. I'm actually appalled at Naj in particular so <@&595893856554319873> especially for a response such as this to a matter like this. This is especially after I ping you as an example of a player with a decent head on their shoulders, and then you come into the thread with that sorta energy? 👉Just proved me right and validated my creation of this thread.

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Also hats off to Blast for probably one of few neutral ground opinions to this post and more or less the 100% correct take on this matter 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

grizzled atlas
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@jagged vault