Nerf and Buffs

[errant jackal]

Its time to talk about some much needed changes with the way thing are currently...

SS is still the meta unfortunately

SS is the only dragon that does not get affected by the weather. Blitz gets damage buff, FS and IR flames get nerfed, IR cannot cloak at all, ASD bile doesnt stick unless biten but can easily wash anywhere you are if its raining.

The SS needs a damage reduction or something to do with its cloak. Make it were an SS cannot cloak in the rain, just like an IR cannot cloak in rain. When you are cloaked on SS and even IR, once you are in water, cloak comes off or make it where the blue shimmer is constantly showing like when it goes to cloak and uncloak.

The damage could change due to time of day. Make SS bile stronger at night then during the day since SS is technically Nocturnal.

[mental fog]

Love the idea of bile getting stronger at night and weaker during daytime. Also something instead of an entire uncloak have it to where the bright blue specks show on the body in spots as rain patters on it and even revealing the skin underneath as essentially gaps show in the camouflage!

[errant jackal]

Yee thats the blue shimmer I said

[stoic agate]

I don't think environmental buffs/debuffs are the move for balancing Shadows, it's not going to nerf how oppressive it is in a fight. The base kit is what needs work.

For simplicity's sake and speed of development, if the rain were to interrupt the cloaking more than it already does, I would just make it unable to cloak at all.

[glossy lark]

SS is only meta because the other dragons can’t properly fight back. And even when they do, some of them have all these drawbacks that make them weaker.
The fact that SS is fast, agile, has burst long-range and high-DPS attacks, and somehow also high resistances, is what makes it so strong.
It just doesn’t make sense to me how they decided to give a long-range attacker this much mobility and resistance, while Blitz and IR — which are medium-to-close-range fighters — can get deleted in seconds and can’t even run away because they don’t have the speed or agility for it.

[muted lava]

Or instead of the damage changing from the time, it could be ss are slower at day and faster at night?

Or mabye have less stam stuff so it makes up the agility

[little sparrow]

Reducing the SS damage or messing with its cloak isn’t going to fix any of that. It’s the best dragon by design. It has the longest range, highest in air agility of any combat dragon, along with one of the fastest flight speeds. Even if you nerf its damage, it will still pepper anything in the air to death. It needs to be reworked from the ground up. Its concept needs to change basically. It can’t be this long range “sniper” dragon that’s also very agile and fast. It needs to be something different entirely, or as I said, it will remain the best dragon in game because of its design.

[spiral jolt]

Making it so SS can't cloak in the rain just makes no sense. IR cant ignite itself because it's fire..and the rain is considered to keep it from doing so since the dragon is wet

[ionic valley]

Redesigning the ss from the ground up isnt the move either. The ss is good right now. It does everything it was supposed to do from everything Jao wanted from it from the start. Fast flying speed, good turning ability, high damage in certain instances but pretty weak to blunt and elemental forces. Literally EVERY other dragon is just not as good at doing what its supposed to do as the ss is at whats its supposed to. I think the IR is actually in a pretty good spot right now, can mitigate elemental attacks, can one shot most things with bite and it has a stream of fire attack and a single projectile attack and bring in testing and training server all of these work and work pretty well even against a good ss player. I think the other dragons SERIOUSLY need more attention and id even say the fs is good right now as well but other than the things i mentioned, to make up for the speed differences there can be changes to stamina and acceleration with the bigger dragons so they can actually hit the ss in certain situations obviously the ss still needs to be able to leave most things in the dust lets not forget that. But basically the ss is just an example of the devs fully optimizing a certain play style. We just need them to give more attention to the other play styles

[little sparrow]

We've had this conversation before and it boils down to: it's easier and cheaper to fix 1 dragon over ALL of the others. Even if they did what you suggest the SS would still be better than them all, because it's faster, and has a longer range and can engage, and disengage freely. The SS is not optimised, it's overloaded with pros, and has little cons. It's broken by design. The other dragons need works, yes, but changing them would not change easily the SS can deal with the other dragons.

[ionic valley]

Me and you had the conversation? And no if they did what i suggested the ss would not be what it is now. We all know the blitz needs work so i didnt mention it and im sure we all seen my post about the blitz. The ss is not overloaded with pros it literally is the dragon they was planning on making from the start. Its fast it can turn fast and has high dps so glass cannon. There are plenty of those in other games, the ss just literally does its job. Also i agree that changing multiple dragons vs changing 1 dragon is more challenging but changing certain things is not hard at all. Its simple buffs im talking about that can be implemented in a day😂 ss will always be a hard dragon to pvp against its just setup that way. You also have to think that its possible taking anything away from the ss can totally flip it from being the best to the worst and that causes problems with those who love playing ss. Ive always been on board with adding rather than taking away.

[stoic agate]

(Its not even a glass cannon compared to ASD and Blitz , at least the Drake is a class below but the fact that it one-shots both at all is nuts)

[little sparrow]

Yes, we did. You also did the samething last time about the Blitz and I'm going to say the samething to it. This is not about the Blitz being bad, it's about the SS being better than everything else. Based on what you've said I really don't think you actually understand why the SS is so much better and why changing the other dragons wouldn't fix it. You know, when the SS was first launch way back, when you got it to elder it was faster than the adult counter part: this caused alot of issues because the adult stood no chance of ever killing the elder because of it's speed. If it was winning the adult SS, it couldn't run because it was faster, and would just be killed faster by the elder, so it was forced to continue a losing fight. If the adult SS was a better player and was beating the elder SS, it could literally turn and run and there was nothing the adult could do to stop it. The elder literally dictated every engagement; so they eventually nerfed it's speed down to what the adult is. Right now, the SS to other dragons, is what the elder SS was to the adult SS before the speed nerf. it dictates every engagement, out flies everything in the sky, and has the most range. The problem is, that's literally what it's been designed to do, and that's why it's a design problem, not a simple nerf or buff X or Y problem. Changing the other dragons won't change the fact the SS is faster, more agile, and has more range than them and can dictate the pace of the fight, or leave it whenever it wants. Basically, speed and mobility are very powerful stats when it comes to combat, but you also can't just take them away from the SS either, or it becomes non functional and borderline unplayable. It needs to be redesigned conceptually from the ground up.

[ionic valley]

Yes this obviously isnt about the blitz which is why in my first reply to your comment i didnt even mention it….. however if you play the game and if you know how things go in the game you would know that the blitz getting some type of buff would literally answer most of the concerns people have. The blitz was supposed to come into the game and actually rival the ss just how the IR rivaled the FS and people then wouldnt feel like the game is just overrun by shadow scales. Yes i know the elders used to be faster and they took that away cool. Yes i know speed is huge in combat games speed literally kills. So your telling me if certain dragons had the ability to turn a bit faster or have a little more stamina or even take a few more plasma shots it wouldnt change the pvp game a bit? Id have to disagree with you on that because there are so many instances where im fighting and die to an SS and think okay well if i had this the fight wouldve been way more even or if i had that i couldve did this….the ss is literally doing what its supposed to be doing. It should be fast and agile look at how its appendages are setup.. it should have good damage it literally shoots plasma… it should have good range its a single shot and you can charge it up… i do think it could be a little more squishy because compared to the blitz its like two completely different classes in terms of health and defense against elements. Plus the ss isnt totally beating everything by miles or anything if they gave the blitz a little LITTLE more range its viable, if they gave IR more turning ability its viable, if they increased the range of the flame stalkers fire breath its viable and honestly these dragons are viable now you just have to work way harder than an ss has to. So i do think changing bits and pieces of certain dragons would turn the pvp scene around nerfing the ss can help yes but taking certain things away?? Or completely overhauling the dragon?? Is a bit much

[stoic agate]

I think the speed would be fine if the charge shot was nerfed significantly or at least situational - It should be an ambush tool, not used during dogfights. I would prefer it if the Shadow actually utilized its tools in the way a proper sniper did - hide, set up for a strike and take the shot. Its flight should be a getaway, not its main way of hunting. Where a Blitz should be able to beeline away from a pursuit, Shadows can turn and dodge into trees and hide again.

I think the Shadow could absolutely be reworked in multiple ways, which I've gone over before in other posts, but here's one for the invisibility - I would honestly be totally fine if invisibility was way more powerful on the ground. Remain completely see-through while trotting and only shimmer while running, no stam drain, but you can't stealth while flying. Rain causes shimmer, and attacks or charging take you out of stealth as usual. Charge shot remains as strong as it is, could even charge slightly faster, but you can only use it on the ground as well, meant to be used either to hunt smaller creatures or to take a group and combo-shot a larger target on the ground.

It would make using Stalkers much more reliable as an actual counter - you could see where they land, but once they're on the ground, they can try to trot away completely see-through, and if you don't find them fast enough, they get out. A Stalker's heat sense would make much more sense here as you always know the general area a Shadow escaped to, which is not the case now since Shadows can disappear before landing.

[errant jackal]

Not being able to cloak in the rain does make sense because when you are in water, the cloak turns off. Just like the IR. And if not fully off for the ss, make it that blue shimmer.

@a.vi. I do like the idea of the SS being fully cloaked when in the ground, trot or just standing however I do think it should still take stam regardless. The biggest OP thing about SS is in the rain and storms, it can just cloak and it’s basically immediately out due to the weather. Every dragon gets affected by the weather in some way besides the SS. The FS and IR is an ok counter to the ss but not unless you are 4th point scav. Much more of a tank if you have that but as a fresh adult? SS can easily take out everything else. SS gameplay is also just straight boring…spinning in circles over and over and over, you get a bite off and they instantly run away lol.

[glossy lark]

Honestly, if they really wanna give each dragon a proper role or playstyle, they’ll have to rework all of them.
SS being able to stay right behind other dragons just doesn’t make sense for a ‘sniper’ type. They’re supposed to keep their distance, charge shots, and get punished if caught off guard.
Blitz, though, is the exact opposite — it needs to stay close since its damage comes from DoT

Same thing goes for FS and IR (not even gonna mention ASD or Broods).
FS should at least be fast enough to keep up with SS — no need to be agile.
IR should be the agile one since it’s meant to be the CQC fighter, the one that dives into caves, trees, or flies around dodging for that perfect bite or flame.
But honestly, none of this ever happens unless you’ve got your whole clan backing you up

[little sparrow]

I don't know where you get the idea the Blitz was suppose to rival the SS. From what I understand that was the Flamestalkers job, which it fails at, miserably. The logic you've used here can literally be applied to everything; if I had X or Y, I could do this and that. The point is you can't tailor a dragon to fit every situation, and using that logic doesn't really work because you're saying you'd have won if you had X or Y, but the fact was, you didn't and that doesn't mean it should now be added because you would have won in that particular situation. I also can see this conversation, like the last one, is going no where. Also, if you think giving the Blitz more range would make it viable, you're wrong... that thing is designed horribly and should be taken back to the drawing board, along with the Boradwatcher and the Flamestalker. Yes, the SS is beating everything by miles, it's not a close fight when you are dealing with someone who has half a brain on that thing. You are saying to me, it's abit much to overhaul the SS, while simultaneously asking for them to overhaul all of the other dragons? that's abit contradictory don't you think? Look, the bottom line is, the SS is the meta, and has been since it's launch, and despite the several nerfs to it, and buffs to other dragons, nothing has changed. The evidence literally speaks for itself... changing the numbers is not working, it's also supporting my point, which is: the SS needs a redesign, not tuning, in order to fix the issues it's causing within the game. Anyway, just like last time, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere, so I'll leave it at that. We will have to agree to disagree.

@stoic agate Potential addition to what you said about charging in cloak. They could also give the charge shot a damage increase when charged from stealth too; to help incentivise using the cloak to initiate a fight.

[ionic valley]

Yeah no. Super wrong sorry man the fs does not rival the ss lol the fs is the predator of the ss they are in two completely different classes i mean its pretty common sense. The 4 dragons that share a class each relate to each other in terms of element. The rival to the ss is the blitz lol and the fs had the ir….. im saying if i had this or that the situation would be different because literally in this game thats possible….. the IR didnt always have the ability to mitigate elements or have a fireball attack haha so what are you talking about right now? And no i dont think giving the blitz more range would make it viable i KNOW giving the blitz more range would make it viable i play the game too much and have been for a few years now i know exactly what the blitz needs and that was just one thing…… i agree on the fact you said its designed horribly it doesnt make sense tbh it kinda contradicts itself but yes more range obviously means better chance at hitting something without getting hit yourself. Nothing your saying trying to disagree with my point is actually helping yours because it makes little sense. I dont know why you think the ss is tailored to fit every situation… your making it seem like the ss is a god lol get flamed up a bit and see how long you survive. Get acid biled see how long you survive and yes even good players can die lol. The ss just fits the way pvp is for dod RIGHT NOW. There are more dragons coming and there are still things some dragons we have now, that need attention and all it takes is some buffs and nerfs lol. Like i said previously…. They already gave certain dragons buffs and nerfs and yes i can agree ss is still better in most situations. Its a HUGE step forwrd for the dragons that got buffed because they were dying way faster before. I completely disagree with what your saying🤝🏾

[little sparrow]

I don’t think anything you’ve said here is correct. The Blitz is not designed or meant to rival anything at all, let alone the SS. It’s designed to support other dragons with crowed control in the form of a stun. If the stun was more useable, it would fulfill that role perfectly too. It was never meant to 1v1 other dragons. For it to do that well, it would need a complete redesign.

No you cannot use the logic if I had X or Y I’d have won either, you are wrong. You can literally say this about any dragon, in any situation. Just because you “main” a Blitz doesn’t mean you know what it needs, nor does it mean you know what you’re talking about. The SS is better than every other dragon for reasons that are baked into its design. This type of design doesn’t interact well with all of the other dragons, so it should be changed to fit, not the other way around.

Also, I’m sorry but I’ve done enough PvP to know; if you’re getting hit by a Flamestalkers fire, or an ASDs acid attack you are doing something very wrong. The reason it’s so good is that it’s fast enough and agile enough to avoid all damage, and get position on other dragons and pepper them to death. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you really understand the issue, given by the fact you think the SS is fine, and 90% of the other players don’t. Like I said, the SS is meta for a reason, and the devs buffing your beloved Blitz won’t change that. So yes, we disagree.

[ionic valley]

We?? Its only you disagreeing bud sorry and the blitz definitely was supposed to rival the ss you just gotta do research man… yes i main blitz and i know what it needs both at the same time so sorry try that with another person.. and you can get hit by flame or acid as anything if that person is good at the game lol. You think people that main fa or ir or asd dont know tricks to be able to catch something fast?? Its been a few years now come on… so im sorry but you are wrong giving certain dragons certain buffs and nerfs can completely give them a level head with the ss you really just gotta play the game to know that haha. Yeah i dont think anything youve said is correct either like at all man the bs is rival to the ss the fs is the predator of ss the ss is predator to the asd lol idk how youve been here all this time and didnt know this….you say im contradicting myself by saying overhauling the entire ss is a bit much but giving simple buffs to dragons isnt i think im not actually because you want them to completely redesign a dragon while im talking about simple buffs and nerfs that play into these dragons niche haha anything i have an idea about can be used and make sense in the lore of dod it completely aligns. Me liking or maining blitz has nothing to do with anything i just know about it a lot lol

[little sparrow]

You should read some of the other posts about the SS and some of the other comments.

I’m sorry, I’ve done plenty of research, and say in on multiple Q&As and it’s not. It’s a dragon designed around supporting with CC. There was a point, before its launch people, including myself theorised it COULD counter, or rival the SS, but it was never designed with that in mind. What you see on paper, and what happens in practise are two very different things, what you’ve done is listen to a theoretical idea and taken it as an absolute. It was designed to support with CC, and thats all. L

Simple buffs and nerfs won’t knock the SS off the top. Yes, if you can get hit by an FS if you’re stupid enough to joust it, or fly so close, directly behind it that it can break check you. If you’re getting hit on an SS by a FS, it’s because you messed up and don’t understand how positioning works in the air, not because the FS is good and can compete with it.

[ionic valley]

You can dm me and we can talk about this more rather than in here. Id be happy to debate about it there.

[stoic agate]

Most of this game needs a rework tbh, I agree with the sentiment that small buff/nerfs to the Shadow or Blitz arent going to cut it. The Not Dying in One Hit Update certainly didnt

[little sparrow]

Yeah, I agree to be honest. Things outside of the dragon design too in my opinion. Alot of things in this game feel kind of "janky" and I think it's because (from limited research) alot of the systems in the game are built using blueprints. Blueprints aren't really design to be used as long term systems: they were created as a way to make quick prototypes, which you'd later convert into actual code. That, from what I read works alot better in the long term because they are faster, and lighter on a game than masses of blueprints.

@ionic valley No offense, but I don't think it's worth continuing; we aren't going to agree, and that's okay.

[slate barn]

Please keep the thread on subject if you wish to discuss system overhauls as a topic, we ask that new topics be made into new threads.

[Informational]
UE5 blueprints are a scripting language intended to be used alongside programing languages in a final product (but is possible to be used as a stand alone, depending on the project). Epic claims blueprints runs heavier then using strictly programing laguages due to running inside of an overhead program but that the overall impact is negligible. If one wishes to learn more on the subject, resources are available outside of this discord