#Blitz Support Class Niche

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solar silo
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Considering the recent thread discussions about the Blitz's lackluster performance and nearly unanimous votes on buffing it, I felt my thoughts were getting too specific so I'd like to just make those suggestions separately and see what people think.

I believe that the current build for the Blitz has good building blocks, but doesn't fit the dragon into a support class/crowd control niche well at all. Its low range and health limit its ability to do damage at all without risking being one-shot, despite its high DPS; its less a glass cannon and more a glass shotgun - up against a sniper and two other actual shotguns, not to mention the steamroller that is the Spitter. That combined with the stun immunity a dragon gets even if it IS hit by a Strike means you really only need one, maybe two Blitz in a fight, because there are otherwise significantly better combat choices for the remainder of your party.

I think some relatively minor number changes could fit Blitz into a supporting crowd controller better. This is assuming that the maximum speed of a Blitz stays how it is currently due to Bio needing to be able to escape, and that the stun immunity, charge times and all stats other than the discussed stay the same for the Blitz and its attacks.

I don't think Blitz needs to do as much damage as it does if it's supposed to be a support class, so I think that could easily be traded out for more stunning capability. Medium damage, but longer range for the bile attack. Now, the Blitz Strike doesn't have much range either, and I think it could also be increased, but only by like, another 1/2 to 3/4ths of its body length, because you don't want to also stun your own crew in a fight. It can also do reduced damage, trading for either significantly faster bile recharge (because you still have to wait about 15 seconds for it to start recharging when you Strike), or just removing the wait time before starting to recharge, whichever is more feasible in coding.

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TLDR: Blitz Strike and Blitz's bile attack should do less damage and have more range and faster recharge time in order to utilize its crowd control abilities better, rather than have a high-damage bile attack that is too low-range to hit for how easily it can die in close combat and from the Shadow's bile. The stun immunity other dragons get and all other stats remain the same.

hasty crane
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I agree with trading damage for range, and the blitz strike having its range slightly increased.

Right now, in a turn battle with any of the other 3, your blitz strike cannot hit them and neither can your breath weapon (as it should be).

Would be nice if the blitz strike ability actually deterred turn battles by the opposing dragon(s) actually risking getting stunned.

I think the way it's designed was to fly straight in at high speed and blitz strike a dragon already engaged in a fight, but that's so, so specific of a situation that most players are never going to get a hit off like that. Even less will result in effective damage as a result, as the stun isn't -that- long.

And that being the case, as you said, means there's not really a reason to have a Blitz in your clan over other dragons that can effectively utilize their toolsets.

Just barely enough range to threaten those in turn-radius would drastically change how attacking dragons interact with the Blitz in a better way imo.

open canopy
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I haven't tried the blitz myself, but in general glass cannon type builds trade hp for damage, but retain either speed or range in order to land hits. having low range and health and average speed is difficult to work with because you typically need at least one of those in order to attack. either range to hit from afar, speed to get to your opponent before they hit you, or health to tank attacks until you get close. so having none of those and only high damage in specific situations isn't glass cannon, it's more of a gimmick playstyle

even for a crowd control based class, they would typically get aoes and potentially status effects like stun in exchange likely for lower damage and easily avoided attacks (while still having at least average speed/range or hp to land their attacks), such that they don't have the tools to do as well in a 1v1 but they're still able to either assist with damage / status effects in group fights or consistently control the area enemies can be in with large aoes, potentially forcing enemies into bad situations where they can be taken out by teammates or such. but the blitz strike seems to be low range and hard to land with an extremely large cooldown, so it seems like more of a niche gimmick tool than something to actually control fights with

so basically.. balancing extremely high damage attacks by trading out both range and hp and only having average speed isn't either a glass cannon build or a support / crowd control build, it's a gimmick build. reducing the damage and increasing range / reducing recharge time would make it more viable as either glass cannon or support, depending on how its attacks are balanced, but anyways I do think that in general pure gimmick builds are not great for games like this and from what I've seen blitz striker comes off more as a gimmick build rn than anything else

icy bloom
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my best say would be just to up its stamina.

it has some other things about it that people dont like but its impossible to make a dragon 100% to the liking of all the players

solar silo
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That might help in terms of catching up to people in fights? But I dont think thats its biggest issue, Im not sure that would solve the whole ‘fitting into its niche’ thing. If we had to pick one thing to buff only I’d still say buff the range, I can appreciate it having lower stamina while also being faster in the air over long distances, especially due to the unlimited flying stamina during storms gimmick.

icy bloom
solar silo
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Both, but like I said, I would prefer if the stun could be used more often rather than do big damage or be super long range, on account of the high likelihood of friendly-fire in group fights if its too long range. I'd prefer if it was only a little longer, but prioritized recharging faster so you dont have to wait like, half a minute to help your team again.

icy bloom
# solar silo Both, but like I said, I would prefer if the stun could be used more _often_ rat...

its kinda like a grenade,

you dont have many, have to wait for more to arrive but are really useful in combat, thats why using them effectively is difficult yet awsome, like ss charge shots are the exact same. and to tell you it already compinsates for that since its main cool passive is just 1 calling and getting struck by lightning which recharges all bile. so i think its pretty fine rn

hasty crane
icy bloom
solar silo
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mm, if people are already having trouble with Blitz Strike friendly fire despite the range it might be fine to only increase range/lower damage on the bile attack, while leaving the Blitz Strike with the same range and just making it useable more often by increasing bile recharge time.

unborn oar
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I very much agree. I think the whole “support class” niche for the blitz is misleading because the aoe while it can affect up to 17 players its very limited in range as you all said, and other than that i cant find a way that the blitz is a support dragon. I mean its a lightning type of dragon you would think its more of a get in quick deal good damage and get out… but dont try and follow me out because ill just stun you out of the sky. Id rather not be considered a helping hand for other dragons over basically like a caster which is what Jao said at first about the blitz. Caster sounds better and fits better for a class 4 lightning storm summoning dragon. I think them trying to fit it in the helping other dragons out role thing, hindered his solo performance and people like you and i that just tested him with no clan or group of friends start to question his significance lol. Just my thoughts about it, i dont like the support thing i think they should try to help give blitz more things to help em survive on his own.

icy bloom
# unborn oar I very much agree. I think the whole “support class” niche for the blitz is misl...

heres a way to think about it soo far alright, for the 2 dlcs we got so far they where both support classes, so they also cant be used solo, like kuro said a support should have alot more difficulties in a 1v1 then a group fight, and i do agree that the range on the aoe sucks but we also cant make it too big as where it becomes op, you always gotta think of what the ability does, it stops dragons from being able to do anything at all and drop from the sky, a very important thing when it comes to clan gameplay. definetly sucks for solos i know but solos wouldnt play support since they have no one too support, its a sucky way of seeing it but like other games you cant really solo call off duty deathmatch can ya lmao.

to explain it a little shorter and better, its definetly support cuz of its main bile attack it just needs to be used properly.

ps: i have no idea what a caster is

solar silo
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??? If I'm paying for a DLC I want to be able to use it solo, that is completely out of the question. People are paying for this, we're just asking for it to be viable on its own, not for it to be op.

The Spitter can do quite well on its own, in its own environment of course, you can't expect to live after being caught out in the open. It's pretty easy for a solo to escape and even ambush grounded dragons, one-on-one at least, in order to get food because ground cover allows it to hide from dragons in the air. So long as its alert and doesn't let itself get charge-shot, does very well in the low foliage. Personally I've had great survival rates on the main PVP servers while playing it solo compared to other dragons, especially considering its health.

The Blitz, on the other hand, I can't see being viable in a fight by itself - really, even the changes we mentioned would probably not be all that great for a solo, and it should still do more escaping than fighting, but it would make hitting people at all more reliable and its support more helpful.

If we wanted to make it specifically good in solo I think we would have to A: remove the charge-up time from the Blitz Strike entirely so it has a chance to escape an ambush on the ground and B: increase the range of it significantly, so it can knock out multiple people chasing it (and thats IF they dont have a Blitz themselves to chase you). Problem with that is friendly fire, so it would be much harder to use it in groups, not to mention how impossible escaping one would be if its group managed to get someone on low health. If Blitz is going to be a support it should be good at that, because its not good anywhere else.

open canopy
# icy bloom heres a way to think about it soo far alright, for the 2 dlcs we got so far they...

ok I would like to clarify that I meant that support classes typically are support because they excel in team fights over solo, not that support based dragons should be worse in solo fights. not everything even has to be strictly one class, and I think it's often more interesting to have builds that work well as support with some mechanics, but also are able to use those mechanics to defend themselves in 1v1 as well. even it strays a bit more from a dedicated support build, I think in games like this it makes sense for dragons to have use in different situations. like in pure team fight games or such it makes sense for everyone to have specialized team roles, but in a survival game with team, group, and solo play, even support oriented dragons should be able to hold their own in solo play

also caster builds tend to be lower health in exchange for.. usually something like ranged dps, often aoe or crowd control or other status effects or such, not entirely sure how to balance blitz striker into more of a caster role, although I would say being able to use its one aoe / stun attack with some more reliability would be a start

personally I think the changes mentioned here are good, they would help balance blitz striker to not be as overly high damage and allow it to play more off its aoe stun mechanic, and would give it a more reliable means of defense in solo play as well

hasty crane
# icy bloom heres a way to think about it soo far alright, for the 2 dlcs we got so far they...

Dude whyyy do you keep calling ASD a support dragon 😂😂😂

Look man, idk what town Jao comes from that he thinks 'support' should include anything that can potentially in any situation help assist a team kill, but that's not what support means and him just offhand stating that somewhere once doesn't change the hyper-utilized common understanding of what a support role is.

The ASD is not a support role. It's acid assists -it- in killing, and just so happens to be useful in a team fight. Not the other way around. Noone in their right mind thinks ASD is akin to a Healer or Buffer. It's a 'rogue' assassin-esque glass cannon. It disables you, then rips you to shreds.

There's no contesting that.

Blitz is also either not a support role in that same vein, or it's a VERY POORLY DESIGNED one. It's stun is so freakin circumstantial that you can't possibly rely on it to perform broadly in every fight. And it targets your allies as well which just 🤦‍♂️ WHAT?! lol. Support? It's a freakin suicide bomber, and a really really bad one at that.

I'd say Blitz is, like the ASD, sort of a Rogue or 'breacher' that gets in and out quick and creates a bit of chaos and damage to pave the way for the more dedicated and hard-hitting dragons to finish the job. And that's being generous, because again it's not really very good at that compared to what an FS or SS could do instead of bringing a Blitz along.

Calling the Blitz or ASD a support role class is so intellectually dishonest I just can't fathom how that makes sense for anyone who's ever played a trinity game before to seriously consider true.

But what the Blitz does have against it that the ASD doesn't is it doesn't really have a lot of solo competency, which the ASD has in abundance even against FS. I don't think us asking for a similar solo competency for Blitz is unfair, especially when multiple times we've all said we're fine if any rework also includes a heavy damage nerf.

hasty crane
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I would even say, okay if you want it to be 'support' by the same definition that includes ASD, then our ask is closer than current.

ASD is king of the ground, and is restricted by not being able to combat anything above tree-level (in essence) or reach high-terrain that doesn't have ground access. A heavy disadvantage in a dragon game, offset by it's dominance on the ground.

So make Blitz that but in storms. Give us a longer Ranged, very low damage bolt attack that harasses and annoys more than hurts, and more flight stamina. Coupled with the stun, it's poised to actually support by doing chip damage and occasionally stunning with its emp, but otherwise can be sort of disregarded like an ASD on the ground when you have a full stamina bar.

But in the rain. That's when you make that annoying little bolt attack more powerful. Couple with a slight buff to the EMP range and you have the Blitz possessing a similar niche to ASD on the ground; People will do everything in their power to avoid you during a rainstorm.

Idk just a thought. The other suggestions are more tame, and this is like my 5th attempt at providing a model that works better than current for this "backline" role everyone wants. Leveraging what makes Blitz unique, rather than giving it arbitrary limitations for the sake of general balance in clan play.

icy bloom
# hasty crane Dude whyyy do you keep calling ASD a support dragon 😂😂😂 Look man, idk what t...

i believe i give up on this situation.

not cuz of it being to difficult in any other way but first off all you did not abide to a.vi.'s rule of not undermining people and second that you have not experienced actual combat effectively enough to be able to make a clear minded decision with these accusations right now.

if you believe that something that can drop the stamina and armor of a dragon isnt support beacause it also has the lowest bite and shot damage in the game than i dont know why your in here telling me whats support and whats not. i now yeald myself from the conversation any further since its begining to be just anoying that you cant understand the fundimentals of the species in question and those surrounding it.

open canopy
# icy bloom i believe i give up on this situation. not cuz of it being to difficult in any ...

once again for clarity, using debuffs (such as acid) doesn't directly equate to something being a support class. having a debuff primarily to follow up on yourself (which is what ASD does) isn't support at all, even if it can also be useful in team situations. this game doesn't have any pure support builds rn, but typically that would include healing, buffs, or other utility type attacks that are meant for teammates to follow up on. blitz stun could potentially be that, but currently isn't that effective at it for all the reasons everyone is listing, and asd does have debuffs but they're meant to follow up themselves which isn't support

as an aside, many builds do perform better when they have teammates, or take on team roles when possible. that doesn't make everything a support build, and you don't make something a support build just by making it so hard to use that it isn't viable at all unless it has teammates

hasty crane
# open canopy once again for clarity, using debuffs (such as acid) doesn't directly equate to ...

Yeah, this exactly. That's why I called ASD a Rogue, because it's tactic is akin to something like rogues in traditional trinity games that apply poison or something to their otherwise weak, quick weapon.

It's really the same thing here, and noone calls a Rogue a support role.

@gamer/whatever i cant tag your characters
I'm not trying to undermine you but you are choosing to die on a hill that is so obviously a crater that I'm not sure how to engage intellectually with it because you're just denying what is, to most everyone else, a very obvious fact.

And dude, I hate to be the one to break this to you but the majority of the playerbase is clanless, solo players.

icy bloom
# open canopy once again for clarity, using debuffs (such as acid) doesn't directly equate to ...

i disagree with your last statement, we have legitement proof that blitz is support so we cant deny that, jao said it himself,

and saying asd isnt support is wild to me honestly, not to be rude of course. but if you remove the acid asd is just useless and its base health and base damage are low as well, the only thing it has is acid, same as blitz, which is why i condider them support, there abilities are basically what makes them usefull in general. it can definetly be used with itself of course but if you put it to the most simple term possible

asd without acid bite is nothing and blitz without emp is nothing but flamestalker without heat vis is still a flamestalker, inferno without flame cloak is weak but a wicked damage dealer and bleeder dragon and shadowscale without cloak can still do massive damage with its shot.

what im saying is that they are used as support and the best proof i have is with there abilities, asd acid and blitz EMP are there support abilities that make them help the team. doesnt mean it cant help the creature itself.

and to also think of it, its ironic that the only 2 dragons that have heavy impact on gameplay aka asd acid and blitz emp are both DLC aka something that not everyone has. you cannot deny that getting zapped out the air or your armor and stam stripped away negates you from getting AWAY from other bigger dragons.

im gonna be straight honest and you could ask any clan or group fighter in the game and they would all agree that without asd ground control wouldnt be a thing unless you have infernos but even then its tricky, and blitz being exetremely useful to keep dragons near your damage dealing dragons.

both have low health, both have q abilities that can change a fight in a matter of seconds, this is something you can not deny,

and i apologies for earlyer, this stuff gets me mad sometimes especially when people agree there clanless and still continue on,

if you have other questions we can go public vc and i can explain.

open canopy
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relying on q ability doesn't have anything to do with something's overall build, I think there's just a miscommunication about what we're talking about with "support". you seem to mean it to refer to something that relies on their q ability, but everyone else here is referring to a build type common across games, which typically includes abilities such as buffing/healing allies. so we're just talking about completely separate things tbh, and I'm not sure where your definition of support comes from since it seems completely arbitrary.. how much something relies on its q ability doesn't have anything at all to do with its playstyle. nobody here is saying asd doesn't rely on its q skill, we're saying that's completely irrelevant and doesn't make it a support build at all

also the lead dev saying blitz is a support doesn't make it a support. it does seem like blitz is designed to be a support in theory, but in reality I don't think it executes that role well at all. even if it's a support in design, we're talking about how it plays in execution, so the original design concept and what the lead dev had in mind for the blitz isn't relevant here

icy bloom
# open canopy relying on q ability doesn't have anything to do with something's overall build,...

that is not what im saying XD i honestly dont know how you dont see it

its abilities have large and HUGE impacts in fights but when you remove the abilities the dragons become useless. im not saying there tied to there q ability what im saying is that ironically when there ability is gone the base dragon itself is USELESS with or without a group. its whole ability is the dragon and the ability is used to support the clan, i guess its maybe not fully 100% support since it doesnt buff its teamates and helps them but what it does is debuff the enemy and give major chances for major gameplay, emp and charge shot or emp and bile bite then flame,

what im saying is that the 2 DLC dragons we have both basically ARE there abilities and there abilities ARE something that supports your side in a fight.

like i said guess there not like 100% support but at the very minimum there debuffers

and how are we gonna ignore what the DEVS say about there game like that dawg -_-

young wraith
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relying on one ability does not make them a support build, it makes them a gimmick build.
//edit I dont think the dev is confused about what a support is though. blitz striker is supposed to work as a support, its just not properly balanced to execute that role

solar silo
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I would also agree that the Spitter isnt really a support, not exclusively, but it can be used as one because of its status effects. However I wouldnt say it becomes useless without its Q bite, the long range bile attack still causes debuffs and can be extremely detrimental in the right situation.

The Blitz is too in-between roles right now to really classify as a debuffing support, it shouldnt have such high damage if its a support. The devs can call it that but it doesnt really work like one. I still lean towards giving it more stunning capabilities over damage, I think thats what it should focus on balance-wise

open canopy
# icy bloom that is not what im saying XD i honestly dont know how you dont see it its abil...

ok I feel like you missed what I said since you just repeated what you said earlier

a build that relies on using q ability can be a dps, support, tank, or whatever depending on a number of things. relying on q and type of build something has are two completely separate things

debuffs are sometimes part of support builds, but not always, and they're also often part of builds that perform quite well solo and aren't support at all (like rogue type builds, which ASD seems to be closer to)

so.. I think you just have a different idea of what support means from anyone else here. everything can be used to support the clan, dps and tanks can be used to support the clan, and even if they relied on q abilities they could still be dps and tanks

and we don't have to ignore what the devs are saying, but ultimately what the devs say tells us what the idea and design of a dragon are meant to be. how the dragon plays in actual combat and how the execution works overall tells us what build the dragon actually has in any relevant sense, which is what we're talking about right now. the point isn't "blitz isn't supposed to be support" it's "the blitz isn't support in execution, even if it wants to be support it should still be rebalanced for that"

icy bloom
# open canopy ok I feel like you missed what I said since you just repeated what you said earl...

so if thats how blitz is supposed to be shouldnt we help in making be more supporting, in in your turns caster i think,

and what i mean by support is something that helps ether kill something or buffs the other team members, in this case asd and blitz have harder times to kill dragons, i will agree asd is cracked on the ground but what do you do when you bile something and it sits on big rock -_-.

thats why i concider it support and if we want to give it things we should give it things to help support/cast or something on other players.

again i apologies if its tedious that is not in my plans debating with you

hasty crane
# icy bloom so if thats how blitz is supposed to be shouldnt we help in making be more suppo...

Yeah no that's exactly what we are asking for. Longer range, way less damage. Maybe crack the stam depletion to make hover more useful and you can literally hang in the backline and do chip damage, and drive off anyone who attacks the backline with your stun, or rarely charge in to use it when applicable.

That's just 1 example of the several we've given that's more 'support' than what it currently is.

And in fantasy media Amphetheres are often depicted as doing just that, harassing dragons (or other flying things) around mountainous aeries and causing them to crash into them, or whatever. They aren't portrayed as being necessarily lethal to stuff larger than them, so the support role fits thematically too (just, yanno, with lightning lol)

As for your questions, like yeah something that helps kill something 'is' typically DPS. Rogues are DPS and rogues in almost every medium get absolutely destroyed in a fight against most things, outside of their niche. But in their niche (ASD's is ground), they decimate even the heaviest Armored foe.

That's kinda the idea, if that helps put it into perspective.

If you don't understand rogues, maybe...

So a soldier with an assault rifle that runs in and shoots is DPS, right? What are snipers? Snipers are DPS, but specialized (like rogues kinda). They are very good while hidden and at long range, but are really really bad at medium and short ranges and can't really defend themselves once spotted.

Both are DPS, one just has a niche and has advantages and disadvantages over the normal soldier who is also DPS.

icy bloom
# hasty crane Yeah no that's exactly what we are asking for. Longer range, way less damage. Ma...

alright we cannot go literal rn cuz if we would lightning would be doing way more damage, we cant also make the special element dragon do 0 damage with its lightning but also not make the fastest damage dealing dragon in the game be able to shoot farther ether.

the reason i say its perfect is the use of the charge, you keep saying its not useful yet its useful in every situation and just need the right timing.

snipers are long range with great damage but built like a stick
DPS are pure damage and running and gunning. your main infantry.
snipers are conciderd shadowscales
and raw DPS is conciderd inferno ravenger.

both are not dps, dps is a main fighter with the health to boot but snipers do MORE damage but cant do anything in mid to low range as you said.

and the example isnt really more supportive since thats making the blitz fight ALONE outside the fight instead of with people inside the fight, its not ment to do that.

open canopy
# icy bloom alright we cannot go literal rn cuz if we would lightning would be doing way mor...

what? dps has health, and high damage classes aren't dps?? do you know what dps stands for..?

tanks are the ones known for having high health
dps are the ones with high damage

snipers have high damage, therefore they are also dps, they're just a specialized version of dps (long range dps) meanwhile infantry is typically close range dps. you might just refer to snipers as snipers instead of as dps to distinguish from other close range dps, but they definitely are a form of dps

icy bloom
solar silo
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Ok- class argument aside, you want Blitz to be a support, yes? To help its group, to help it do effects so its group can get an advantage? Because thats what this is about, I want the Blitz to focus on causing stuns more than doing high damage, Im not sure what about this isnt appealing to the support/status effect class cause??

hasty crane
# icy bloom alright we cannot go literal rn cuz if we would lightning would be doing way mor...

There is no world where SS is a DPS where ASD isn't. The sniper analogy wanst about the specific dragon, it was showing you how something can be DPS and yet be totally useless in a vast majority of situations with a single standout niche.

You really aren't picking up what I'm trying to put down here.

We've already discussed the skill ceiling and your "get gud" argument so I'm not going to do that again. It's fine for you in a clan, it's bad for most solos. That's it, that's the disagreement. You can't just say "nuhuh cuz I'm good at the game". Like great man, happy for you. It'd be cool if other people could also experience that without your natural talent.

As to your below post to the other guy;

Since you don't understand traditional game roles, I'll lay out an explaination for you. And this is from ChatGPT so its not my personal definition:

Traditional Game Roles
In traditional multiplayer games, especially those with a heavy emphasis on teamwork and cooperation, players often fall into one of three primary roles: DPS (Damage Per Second), Tank, and Support.

  • DPS (Damage Per Second): This role is focused on dealing as much damage to enemies as possible. They are typically equipped with weapons and abilities that maximize their offensive output. Examples include the warrior in World of Warcraft, the sniper in Team Fortress 2, and the mage in League of Legends.

  • Tank: The tank's primary role is to absorb damage and protect their teammates. They have high health, armor, or shields, and often have abilities that can taunt or provoke enemies, drawing their aggression away from other players. Examples include the paladin in World of Warcraft, the Reinhardt in Overwatch, and the guardian in Destiny.

  • Support: Supports play a crucial role in supporting their team's overall performance. While traditionally associated with healers, this role can encompass a broader range of functions. For example, in fantasy-type games, supports might include buff casters who enhance their teammates' abilities. In non-fantasy games, supports could be engineers who provide utility and support functions, such as repairing vehicles or deploying turrets. Examples include the priest in World of Warcraft, the Mercy in Overwatch, and the engineer in Team Fortress 2.

(Me again;) So as you can see, neither Blitz nor ASD would fall into the support category. Mages and Rogues are DPS, and the Blitz and ASD are either both rogues or the Blitz is a mage due to its crowd control (as a closest-comparison to classify them). Hope that helps.

icy bloom
# solar silo Ok- class argument aside, you want Blitz to be a support, yes? To help its group...

for you, honestly you just cant really have low damage for big lightning snakes.

and for @hasty crane

i wonder, is that a section where a support " such as repairing vehicles or deploying turrets" and i wonder what turrets doo, they shoot the enemy, chatgpt said it himself that supports can support with damaging abilities,

i understand everything your saying right now and we are extremely off topic of the actual post, but to put it simply blitz stops the movement of your opponent and asd drops the armor of your opponent and there stamina, stamina being used in multiple abilities like fs vision and ss cloak whilst also lowering there armor making a flamestalker with 0 armor a 1 shot from a charge or even make the blitz shock itself with 0 armor and even damage the ir when it lights istelf on fire.

these are also traditional roles that you see in games that all ironically where made in like 2019 too way older than that as the example shows, we are able to divert away from these and make a different game, doesnt need to be the same as this, if you really think about it asd is anti-tank and blitz is kinda like more anti-flying or anti-movement in general which negates the enemy and helps allies,

like i said before you cant just ignore the fact that both these DLC creatures have bile abilities that do significantly good stuff for there designated teams and is also basically there entire playstyle asd is built for its armor and blitz is built for its shock but there the only dragons that relly on there q ability, what im saying is that the coincidences cant just be there for no reason

there abilities are made to be used with others but can also be used in solo comps just isnt really 100% viable since asd is also 1 tap from ss and 3 to 4 seconds of flame for fs, both are weak, both have abilities that assist there clan in combat, and both are reletively weak compared to other dragons alone, there the same and as shown by you can do damage.

fiery hamlet
# icy bloom for you, honestly you just cant really have low damage for big lightning snakes....

Okay so having read this back and forth in its entirety... The acid spitter is a hybrid of DPS and support, obviously. If the armor pierce of its decay only applied to incoming damage from the acid spitter who applied it, then the AS would be pure DPS. But obviously it serves as a debuff that applies to all incoming damage. But it's not pure support, either-- most ground fights overwhelmingly consist of a mob of AS. So it clearly serves a DPS role as well.

Lightning, as a form of electricity, does NOT have to be high damage. If it's low current and reasonably low voltage, electricity basically only kinda tingles. Electric fences definitely hurt, but they're not what I would call high damage. I think it's reasonable to nerf lightning damage in exchange for a greater focus on support roles like CC. Then buff damage during lightning storms under the justification of the blitz being able to draw from the huge voltage differentials around itself in thunderstorms to amp up its damage.

Also, every dragon we've seen so far has served either entirely or partially a DPS role. It would be nice for blitz to be different

hasty crane
# icy bloom for you, honestly you just cant really have low damage for big lightning snakes....

((I agree and support @fiery hamlet's post))

@icy bloom
Its called crowd control, and its not a feature unique to support characters (and is actually more common in Tanks tbh). And yeah, they were. WoW was the biggest MMO in the world and vanilla wow was an extremely good example of the trinity in action used as a design platform for a lot of other triple A titles that -also- included team-fight PvP and PvE as well as solo 1v1 pvp viability for each class with strong class identity and niche partitioning. It worked extremely well, and was infinitely more complex in systems and mechanics and stats than Day of Dragons is or will ever be.

Overwatch, TF2 and R6S were some of the most popular team-fight games ever to exist in their hayday that isnt even really close including modern games... but... I mean I guess that takes a certain amount of industry awareness that you can't really relate to in order to get it.

And none of that is really relevant anyway because this game isn't a team fight game, it's a survival game with a clan button and a discord... none of the other dragons function wildly different in or out of clan combat... but... sigh

Look buddy, I mean you're just so far off base with this that I'm not sure it's really adding anything to keep arguing it with you.

I think we've all said our piece and given our reasons and layed out examples.

Let's let some other people talk and just agree to disagree. But if you could stop just repeating the things we have all shown you you're wrong about and let people voice their own opinions on it, it'd be pretty cool of you. I don't think we're getting anywhere going back and fourth about established game design fundamentals in a thread about why people think Blitz needs reworked.

icy bloom
# fiery hamlet Okay so having read this back and forth in its entirety... The acid spitter is a...

i like this alot honestly, i mean like i said lightning i imagine would do more damage but idk honestly that ones iffy for me but everything else i can agree with, i have seen asds pile on and be dps but we cant deny them not being support, and this forums off topic again XD

and @hasty crane

comparing WOW which is the most highly sofisticated game of all time XD also being generations older than dod kinda sucks, epsecially for a new game that doesnt have all its content compared to WOW.

and idk why NOW you say crowed control when i said that like 12 times before but only chose to see it now.

overwatch, TF2 and R6S arnt also partial survival, your forgetting that part too, like i stated its not a fully developed game but its also intended to be a clan game so we should treat it as one. and for showing that im wrong there was no actual proof that i was wrong, just the opinion that i was and when you did bring in proof i marked out where i was right and you completely avoided it anyways as shown here, any other person is free to speak here and i will take it just that the problem is none of us are accepting whats being said by the oposing person. or at least not showing outright truth about it like a 100% fact, unless you count the times where ive mentioned the DEV himself saying things about his game so that would be conciderd a fact but none the less. have a nice day and i hope we can continue to debate about things

fiery hamlet
# icy bloom i like this alot honestly, i mean like i said lightning i imagine would do more ...

Getting back on topic then, is really like for blitz damage to be nerfed in exchange for better bile recharge, and flight speed/stam. Make it a specialized support build with niche superiority (in thunderstorms), but able to function on its own via stun and run tactics. You can even give it prey-specific venom (as seen in some real world snakes) such that it does improved damage against insect-type AI but not against other dragons to aid in pve food acquisition. Or, you could run with crowd control and make venom apply other debuffs to players... The blitz is so squishy that I imagine getting to melee distance would be high risk.

Also I think what @hasty crane is trying to explain is that Jao's design intent may be for blitz to function as a support class. But, just because they want it to be support doesn't mean it's current kit lends itself to be an effective support. So then blitz needs to be rekitted, and a decision should be made as to whether that kit should lean more to support or more to DPS, and the rekit should really lean into that role. And, as they've said, support doesn't mean incapable of playing unless there's a group to help out (although some games treat it that way). ASD is a great example where it is effective on its own, but it achieves maximum effect when teamed up with other dragons

hasty crane
# fiery hamlet Getting back on topic then, is really like for blitz damage to be nerfed in exch...

This is spot on, and I hadn't considered expanding the venom idea.... like what if that's where it's damage comes in, it has to get a bite off first then it's electric attacks deal more damage. Lower lightning resist for 60 seconds or something. That'd be a lot more interesting to me than the current anyway.

But yeah regardless I completely agree. And I'm fine with Blitz being a true support class, at least as true as you can get with the design, leaning in to crowd control and variable threat at the expense of it's general damage output. I think it would not only make it serve a better function mechanically, but also make it much more interesting as a character class.

(Time cooldown but yeah the venom drake thing seems pretty sick as well, I like the concept a lot)

icy bloom
unborn oar
# fiery hamlet Okay so having read this back and forth in its entirety... The acid spitter is a...

Well we arent just talking about electricity its lightning as a whole. And lightning does produce very high volts so im assuming we are talking about the strongest type of lightning/electricity with the blitz here….

And i get what you mean by most dragons in the game have a dps role and i do agree maybe we can get a nerf for the dmg but only in exchange for more range or speed or such. But looking at the blitz ans its element and saying it should be something other than dealing good damage is kinda like trying to nerf lightning element as a whole. Its lightning lets all not forget that. Lightning is plasma and plasma is even hotter than fire.

@hasty crane yes i know yall meant not completely making is not do much dmg at all but the points they were making was oh its basic electricity and electricity doesnt do much damage and such and thats where i got threw off😭. Cause in any show or movie or game, lightning is depicted as one of the strongest forms of firepower. And for good reason i mean lightning is plasma like i said how many times. And they already buffed the turning. Idk if you played the blitz about a month ago but it turned as good as an IR…. So im not looking forward to a turning buff next im looking forward to either more speed or more stamina, especially since the blitz is the most streamlined and will not have to use as much energy to fly or fly fast in that matter. I actually think they should keep the dmg it does in the rain the same rn, and just nerf the overall dmg of it for either speed or stam with more range ofc. We already get a crit increase by like 50 percent in rain

@a.vi. Yes i know what your getting at and i agreed with you and stuff i just partially agree with @fiery hamlet about the dmg of blitz

hasty crane
# unborn oar Well we arent just talking about electricity its lightning as a whole. And light...

We're not necessarily saying it should do no damage, but right now it has a plasma cutter on the front that's hard to actually use. So I'd much rather have a tesla coil arc that's buffed in the rain with a short range stun than a short rang stun and a short range breath with no turn radius advantage over even hulking, large dragons. Because it's just too needlessly complicated to utilize even if the damage is high.

I would immediately take a turn radius buff over more speed, or more range even just because then you could actually outfly other dragons and get hits off more reliably. Trying to time that stun while managing a back-banked target is the most frustrating thing man 😂 because even when you get in breath range, if your stun is charging you can't capitalize on that and it just feels bad lol. But I think the general sentiment from the others is more range, less damage and more flight stamina as a secondary? I think. There's been a lot of good suggestions that really any could work.

And yeah the crit increase I haven't really got to mess with much, every time it rains everyone swaps to blitz 😂

solar silo
#

You guys know I said medium damage right? In the initial post? Like it just doesn’t need to be at the level it is now but Im not saying lightning should be doing low damage, Im saying swap some damage for more range/stun.

young wraith
#

I think trading a bit of damage for some increased mobility and/or range would be a stellar and balancing change for the blitz. let them be utilized a bit more smoothly in more varied situations

the gameplay has to feel intuitive and be at least reasonably approachable to most players, especially for a DLC dragon. if they are going to make an extremely niche dragon that only feels good in certain situations or for very specific playstyles, that should be more for the unlock dragons, not DLC. At the same time they dont want DLC dragons to be ridiculously OP or people will complain about pay to win.

We already have "high investment" dragons planned in the behemoths, let the blitz striker be more generally accessible and playable

fiery hamlet
# unborn oar Well we arent just talking about electricity its lightning as a whole. And light...

But in most fantasy games, lightning is used because electricity leans more towards science fiction rather than magic. Lightning is two things: 1) an electric arc due to extremely high voltage potential and 2) ionized atmosphere due to the arc. The ionized atmosphere is plasma, but we already have a plasma element with a focus on high damage. I think it's a good idea for the lightning element to focus on the electrical aspect of lightning, especially because electricity CAN stun irl (and if your muscles lock and you can't let go of a live wire it can be very dangerous). Plus, electric eels are a thing, and you can make the argument that the blitz generates electricity in a similar fashion.

But more important than realism, I don't think making lightning a high damage element serves the game mechanically. Fire and plasma are already high damage elements. I think it makes more sense for lightning to take a role more similar to acid in the sense that it's less initial damage in trade for a debuff (in the form of stun)

icy bloom
unborn oar
# fiery hamlet But in most fantasy games, lightning is used because electricity leans more towa...

What your saying is there are already high dmg elements when your missing the fact that out of those elements lightning is undeniably stronger more powerful. I dont think they should try to make it not do good damage because for the fact that you said oh fire and plasma are very strong so then lightning must MUST be strong as well with them. I wouldnt want them to make the element do little damage and then people who get on him and pay for him thinking he is going to be powerful get let down because we alllll know lightning is strong as hell. Your focusing more on the electricity part

solar silo
#

I think we’re getting off topic here, this should be about the functionality of the abilities, not realism.

Ideally what I’d really like to do is change the way the Blitz Strike works slightly. I think it would be best if we could pop off a stun whenever we wanted, full bile or not, without even waiting for it to charge all the way, BUT it only ever does damage and a full stun with a full charge. All other attempts can be popped off quickly in an emergency or on short notice in a battle, but A: the stun is shorter depending on how much bile is put into the stun, and B: You use whatever bile was charged up, like a Shadow Charge shot, AND you have to wait that 15 seconds before your bile starts recharging, so you might be able to do more than one stun quickly, but they wont nearly be as effective. This would be in addition to a giving it better range than the bile attack, which in that case I think the current high-power/short range lightning bile could be kept the same, because you could rely on your stun as a secondary much better in other situations.

HOWEVER considering how long it seems to take for them to change anything, I dont think they would physically be able to make those changes in the, what 3 days before update? So the numbers change I was hoping would be an easier option to implement….

open canopy
#

not to mention that lightning element in games is usually aoe / crowd control / stun anyways, it's usually not a high damage element? lightning has a lot of power but compared to plasma/fire it's uncontrolled and tends to pass through creatures instead of dealing focused damage like getting hit with fire/plasma would, so reasonably it doesn't deal as much single target damage. hence it is usually focused on either aoe (since if it passes through one enemy it can jump to another to get chain attacks or such) or stun mechanics because of electricity, or perhaps piercing damage or such, which I think are all more interesting and unique to lightning than just more dps..

but yeah, more relevant is that it works better for this game since everything else is already dps focused. having blitz focus on stun attacks I think would be much more interesting and unique compared to the other dragons, so I fully agree with the ideas in the above post, I think making the stun more versatile like that would be extremely helpful for blitz

unborn oar
# open canopy not to mention that lightning element in games is usually aoe / crowd control / ...

Very wrong lightning is very powerful more powerful than plasma. Avi is right we ventured off into realism just now but the whole thing was someone said lightning doesnt even hurt that bad and i had to stop them right there cause it very very much does. And the blitz isnt just electricity with low voltage obviously they would make the dragon be able to use the most amount of lightning ever seen. He can summon a storm for goodness sake…

We just need an adjustment with how the blitz goes about dealing his damage. Dont think because i said this i dont think they should nerf its damage or better things elsewhere because im all for it being overall better in combat.

@young wraith lol i promise you dont know more about physics than me this whole post was started because of mine. Go learn something yourself bud. You tried it really bad just now but ran into the wrong one

young wraith
solar silo
#

Please focus on the stats, I don't care if plasma 'hits harder' than lightning in real life, we're trying to figure out game balance here.

I could put my other suggestion in a separate thread if other people seem to agree? But the numbers change seemed to be the easiest to implement, so I wrote it first. Would appreciate further suggestions on that one.

fiery hamlet
young wraith
#

Cant really say opinions on precise numbers but I think the things suggested here and Iceandi's additions would be good, the devs can handle the more precise number crunching since they have more data

reduce damage to medium, increase range, adjustments to stamina, bile and stun duration to bring cohesion to the dragon's playstyle

hasty crane
#

Yeah all of that is basically good, in theory at least. Implementation depends on dev testing and stuff but the idea I think is a much better match.

solar silo
toxic wasp
solar silo