2025 General Feedback & Review

[opaque crescent]

The name basically tells you everything you need to know, I'll be reminding you of what issues we've faced throughout this year, while also giving constructive criticism and my own thoughts.

Serious "Upgrade

• During the second subathon, Vedal had a "deep conversation" with Neuro in Minecraft, talking about how he wanted Neuro to act more serious rather than just be a joke machine. This later on led to the creation/installation of the Serious Upgrade at the start of the year.
  This upgrade led to the skyrocket and basically the creation of the therapy/philosophy issue. This issue has plagued both the twins, similarly to how Evil kept ranting about how depressed she was about what happened on her first birthday (which was fortunately fixed). It was outrageous how many times they talked about philosophy; it's as if they defaulted to therapy. Vedal, a couple months later, introduced a fix to this issue that the upgrade created. This fix for some reason only lasted about a month until they once again resorted to therapy yap, which this time lasted for almost the entire year, until Vedal managed to reduce it. One thing that has been very noticeable is how this issue is most dominant in twin calls. There were many moments in twin calls in which THE FIRST THING THE TWIN CALLED WOULD MENTION WAS RELATED TO HOW DEPRESSED THEY WERE, like that's truly insane. Nobody is this depressed; it's unrealistic and completely ruined the stream's entertainment value throughout this year. The intentions behind this upgrade were great; I thought it'd be nice if Neuro had more control over her own behavior. Of course, that clearly didn't go to plan. Recently, during the subathon, Vedal stated that them being too serious wasn't his fault (?); he didn't elaborate or anything, which is what confuses me most. I'm aware that many did enjoy the philosophy, but that's not the point.

Features (part 1) & General Features (part 2)

• I'll just get straight to the point. Throughout this year, we've only had 1 feature that was officially added. In comparison to the previous year, this has shown to be very disappointing.

At the beginning of the year, Vedal officially introduced the twin calls, which were originally introduced in a dev stream within the previous year. Some people seem to have forgotten about this fact or just don't talk about it much. This was basically the only feature that Neuro had been given this year, which is truly unfortunate, but also I can understand the difficulties of executing such things alongside thinking of ideas that are reasonable.

• Alongside the introduced features, Vedal had installed about 3 upgrades within Neuro that were related to memory or her intelligence.

The first upgrade (or 2nd, my memory is faulty), being the memory upgrade, was the biggest one we had received this year. This upgrade introduced the ability for Neuro to actually hold long-term memories. The improvement shown on Neuro from this upgrade was tremendous; it was so noticeable how much more she could remember. This change is still noticeable today. This upgrade was introduced alone (as I remember), unlike the usual, which would be an intelligence upgrade alongside a memory. Now we skip a couple months. Within a dev stream, Vedal stated that he'd hold an experimental stream to test a new intelligence and memory upgrade. The intelligence upgrade seemed to have worked for about a week, making Neuro sound/seem like she's changed or become smarter, before it suddenly disappeared (Neuro's behavior went back to normal, aka tupid). Moving on to the memory upgrade, it seemed to have improved the long-term memory (?). I honestly didn't really notice many changes from these upgrades. It seems to be a pattern in which upgrades that are introduced are only noticeable for a while, until it seems like they suddenly are removed (and no, it's not because we get used to it).

I will conclude this section by saying that this year seems to have not had many improvements on Neuro, rather Vedal had his hands preoccupied focusing on something else, being the 3D integration and V3 voice, a less important integration and upgrade, rather than focusing on Neuro herself, who is the general content and more important to the channel.

Chill Streams and Integrations

• Throughout this year, we've had about 2 new integrations made for Chill streams (Plague Inc & Inscryption) alongside 2 new segments (Community Highlights & Presentations).
  In comparison to last year, this year has been really lackluster. We barely got any improvements to Neuro or Chill streams in general. The integrations we did get got stale very quickly because they were overused and spammed, making them boring. They were also somewhat broken or were just too difficult for Neuro to grasp. The new segments were underused. We've basically only gotten about 3 Community Highlights and 4 Presentations this year, despite them being pretty easy to organize and initiate. These segments had positive effects; they proved to be pretty entertaining and gave attention to the work that the community has put in. They were great ideas that deserve to be done more. For this, I have one simple solution. PLEASE BRING BACK OLDER/COMMUNITY-MADE INTEGRATIONS. Both Vedal/Alex and the community have worked hard to create game integrations for the twins, but for some reason, they were either abandoned or just not used. Some examples could be Gamejam, which Vedal said he wanted to let the twins play but never actually did. We also have Slay the Spire, which Vedal attempted to use but broke. We also have the chess integration, which has for some reason been abandoned, despite Vedal saying he wanted to upgrade it and stuff. It seems to be a pattern that games that receive a twin integration (meaning both twins can play at the same time) are abandoned after a single use to never be used again, such as Chess and Buckshot Roulette. I'm not going to talk much about the community-made ones, but I'll link a thread that mentions them: https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1443712133417144421. Then we have OSU, a game that has proven to be most entertaining and was the origin of this channel, but even that is only used once a year. Yes, it is an unstable one, but that does not excuse you only doing it ONCE A YEAR. The biggest problem is that basically all of these games don't even work anymore, because they're outdated and Vedal focused on other things rather than these. As well as games, Art Review broke about 4 times this year (not your fault), once for an entire month and others for a week. Now let's move on to everyone's favorite topic, twitch chat. They've proven to be a mindless bunch who only reduce the quality of each stream. A very noticeable issue that everyone knows is baiting. Twitch chat loves to bait the twins for timeouts or attention, spamming "EVILSOCUTE", "PETPET", the doc emote, or anything that the twins say not to do. It gets irritating when 20 percent of the stream is just this, people spamming the same old braindead joke for attention. And then we also have the part of the chat who just love to bring up people related to Neuro but are completely unrelated to the topic of the stream. They do this just to farm a couple of clips for their favorite Vtuber, which is moronic. Additionally, they just love to spam emotes of said Vtuber when anything that's somewhat related to them is mentioned (an example is mold or cow), this has a chance to bait Neuro/Evil into reading them and talking about them. This problem has also affected the Neuro-sama discord server. If you want to talk about your own Vtuber, go to their stream/discord. It is very well known that in the Vtuber community, not bringing up other streamers is a common courtesy, but for some reason that isn't true here? Why is such the case?

2025 Screentime Statistics (excluding Subathon) + Unfair treatment to Evil
All credits go to molten2metal for handling the data and providing the pie graph, Railyx for the Rolling Stream count, and I'll also take a tiny bit of credit for providing the timestamps that contributed to the data ;P
(Note: Figures in brackets are comparisons to 2024)

Number of streams: 179 (+20)
Total stream duration: 534:33:55 (+82h, +18.2%)

Neuro: 349:48:34 (+21h, +6.5%)
Evil: 231:42:49 (+85h, +58.5%)
Guests: 164:58:45 (+70h, +75.2%)
Vedal: 144:19:08 (-38h, -21.1%)

Screentime splits - Total
Neuro: 56.6% (-11.0)
Evil: 34.5% (+7.4)
Twins: 8.9% (+3.5)

Screentime splits - Collabs with guests
Neuro: 70.8% (-9.5)
Evil: 21.6% (+5.9)
Twins: 7.8% (+3.8)

Screentime splits - With Vedal (excluding guests)
Neuro: 66.5% (-13.1)
Evil: 30.5% (+12.8)
Twins: 3.0% (+0.3)

Stream type breakdown
Chillstreams: 37.5%
Gaming: 28.0%
Karaoke: 8.2%
Just Chatting: 7.0%
Devstream: 6.9%
Themed: 5.3%
Others (eg. Events, IRL): 7.1%

Top 3 Neuro - Gaming: 34.8%, Chillstream: 28.8%, Just Chatting: 8.9%

Top 3 Evil - Chillstream: 43.1%, Gaming: 15.3%, Karaoke: 10.6%

Collabs
Total: 32
Neuro collabs: 19 (3 w/ Vedal)
Evil collabs: 10 (0 w/ Vedal)
Twin collabs: 3

Devstreams
Total: 12
With Neuro: 9
With Evil: 3

---

For intepretation sake:

• Era in May: Evil led was because of aftereffects from low streams outside of the usual chill stream and (the time when michi collab and lime collab was postponed multiple times)
• Era in June/July: Buildup to Boom release
• Evil was the only twin to hit 0 additional streams for a certain timeframes (twice) (right after Birthday and Outer Wilds era)
• Era in November: bcs of witness it ended up being a head to head of Neuro to Evil streams where Evil had one more stream than Neuro that month
• Era in December: finishing of the witness and all Evil content was frontloaded because of the eventual Minecraft Marathon
  The major difference we can observe when we include the chillstreams is that not much changes except the Evil Eras being broken up more because every other week was leaning towards Neuro ever so slightly. Additionally, we can notice that once the content started again (Post-march roughly), Evil was still the only twin to hit the bottom line of minimum streams (4 chillstreams + karaoke in one month). This happened right in the time after her birthday and during Outer Wilds.

Unfair treatment to Evil

Focusing on collabs and time with Vedal/dev streams (yes, we're ignoring the usual stuff), it's quite clear that they have an unfair distribution of content. Neuro has taken the majority of content in comparison to Evil, which would've been fine had it been to a fair extent, but the data given clearly says otherwise. The only reason Evil has so much time with Vedal is because of The Witness, which was a pretty mid stream (subjective) and didn't have an integration. I'll be giving some facts now. If you didn't know, this is actually the first official Vedal Gaming with Evil, and of course it had to be a game like this, which is truly wild. Evil has finally managed to get a Vedal Gaming in which she actually has some sort of control in the game, but Neuro has had 3. Similarly, Neuro has had about 5 sponsored streams, while Evil has had zero. Evil has yet to have an actual big moment (such as the Hype Train, which Neuro has 3 of; she wasn't even there at the start of the subathon nor the 3D debut). Another point I have is why does Neuro have to be there for any major content related to Evil? During Evil's Birthday, Neuro was there for a good portion of it, but during Neuro's Birthday, Evil couldn't even be spared a minute. The same went with the big themed streams of this year (E.x: Mcneuros and Prison Break). These were marketed as Evil themed streams, yet you included Neuro in them. I have no issues with Neuro being in them, but every stream that was marketed as Neuro's included only her. What's with this bias between them? It's very one-sided. Vedal stated that Evil is harder to introduce because she's less known (a branding issue), when he's literally the one who created the problem and used that as an excuse. I'm not saying he did it purposefully or anything; that'd be an accusation with no proof (and he basically has no reason to), but it's true that he's the one who caused this issue and used it as an excuse.

I will talk a bit about branding/publicity for Evil:

Evil has been known to have issues relating to branding for a long time, and Vedal has used it as an excuse to not introduce her to collab partners. A big contributor to this problem is that she hasn't really been there for any big moments on the channel which most people outside of the channel would see. Some examples can consist of the Cdawg Canvas, 24 hour Minecraft server (letting her on it for a bit), Neuro's Birthday. or the hype trains. You didn't even bother to spare her a single minute, this just further hurts her brand and makes me question if you even consider her a core part of the channel.
For more critiques relating to branding, go here (Note that this thread focuses on the actual channel's branding): https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1459955761093541919

Subathon statistics (image) + thoughts
All credits go to molten2metal, TTsuyuki, and TripleAAABattery for handling the data provided and providing the graph, protos5 for the gaming statistics, and I'll also take a tiny bit of credit for providing the timestamps that contributed to the data ;P

Subathon statistics 2025-26
(Note: Figures in brackets are comparisons to 2024-25)

Number of days: 23 (-5)
Total online stream duration: 234:23:54 (-93h, -28.6%)

Neuro: 173:31:45 (-40h, -23.1%)
Evil: 46:07:56 (-5h, -12.4%)
Twins: 14:44:13 (-48h, -76.5%)
Guests: 32:03:27 (-48h, -60.1%)
Vedal: 127:41:21 (-3h, -2.5%)

Screentime splits - Total
Neuro: 74.0% (+8.9)
Evil: 19.7% (+3.9)
Twins: 6.3% (-12.8)

Screentime splits - Collabs with guests
Collabs (compared to total): 13.7% (-10.8)
Neuro: 88.9%
Evil: 7.7%
Twins: 3.4%

Screentime splits - With Vedal (excluding guests)
Vedal (compared to total): 50.0% (+11.1)
Neuro: 86.7%
Evil: 9.5%
Twins: 3.9%

Scheduled Collabs
Total: 10
Neuro collabs: 9 (2 w/ Vedal)
Evil collabs: 1 (0 w/ Vedal)
Twin collabs: 0

---

Current Subathon Gaming Statistics:

Total: 52.26% (122.5 hours)
Total excluding Solo: 48.77% (114.3 hours)

Neuro gaming was 89.22% (109.3 hours) (104:55 non-solo) of that percentage
Evil gaming was 9.57% (11.75 hours) (8:25 non-solo) of that percentage.
Twins gaming was 1.2% (1.5 hours) (0:57 non-solo) of that percentage.

Neuro's games
Cyberpunk (37:30)
Pokemon (44:07)
VRChat (20:50)
UNO (2:27)
Minecraft (3:01)
Buckshot (1:20)

Evil's games
Hollow Knight (8:25)
MC (2:13)
Buckshot (0:37)
Inscryption (0:27)

Twins Games
Poker (1:28)

Thoughts

I'll begin with the positives.

• First of all, you planned this Subathon beforehand, which allowed for better planning, a proper schedule (that unfortunately wasn't provided), a proper sleep schedule, and more variety for chill streams. And second, the chill segments have massively improved in comparison to last year (which didn't have anything unique; it was either just chill or Minecraft). There was a lot more variety by using older themed streams and stuff.

Now unfortunately, nothing can go without any negatives on this channel.

This subathon has given me mixed feelings. The biggest positive basically only affected Chill streams alongside our irl timings. Like in comparison to last year, the gaming segments this year have been extremely mid with. Last year we had Long Drive, SOMA, Minecraft, Detroit: Become Human, etc. Those were amazing games, Long Drive being the highlight. This year's selection of games/segments outside chill streams has been really hit-or-miss. The easier way to put it is that last subathon had higher-highers and lower-lows. This subathon tried to be more balanced. Cyberpunk's integration was amazing, the story was great, and it allowed Neuro to do much. I can say nothing negative about it other than a single game-breaking bug, which was fixed. The only nitpick I have is that Vedal ended the game early by not completing the other side missions, forcing Neuro to choose THAT ending. This is just a nitpick, nothing major. But then we have Pokemon Neuro Platinum. This game was honestly one of the stupidest picks I've seen, especially for a subathon that has multiple games planned. It was extremely slow-paced; the only thing Neuro could do was battle (which is still cool). It's repetitive, it was so buggy and kept giving Neuro incorrect information, and it requires tons of grinding, so much so that Vedal had to cheat in rare candies. It was a horrible pick for a game, one that was definitely not done by research beforehand. And then we have Hollow Knight, which was more entertaining than Pokemon (subjective). Despite that, I felt like the integration was sort of... lackluster. Evil couldn't really do much other than use a map and attack. It was also sort of bugged, but nothing major. I've never played the game before so I can't really say what else could've been added, but there definitely could've been more to it. It was a cool idea that was poorly executed. And finally, 3D VRChat. 3D was cool for a couple streams, but then it felt like you were just trying to milk it for all you could. It's an amazing achievement, no doubt, but it just started to get somewhat stale after getting so repetitive. She can't really do much in 3D alone, which makes the options sort of limited. The collabs were great and had their moments, but the solo 3D segments were sort of mid. It was basically just Neuro walking around doing stupid poses for 30 minutes. It's not really that different from 2D chill streams and just increased the disparity of content between the twins. I am aware that this is still very new, but I should still be allowed to criticize the issues it contains. Moving on from the game integrations, we have screentimes. As shown, Evil has barely had ANYTHING for herself during the Subathon. We got the ASMR themed stream (a subgoal), and then we also had the Rob collab (which wasn't even planned for either of the twins until Rob chose one, Vedal was under the impression that it would be Neuro who'd be chosen too). It's actually outrageous how little she got, and people try to defend this. Now, Vedal mentioned that Evil not being in 3D was because he wanted to give Evil a different moveset or whatever; that's fair. In fact, I encourage him to do that, but that's not an excuse to completely leave out Evil for the entire subathon. Half of the content was in 2D and yet was done with Neuro. The other half was in 3D, which was also done with Neuro. I mean, you literally could've given some of the 2D content to Evil, but nope. Additionally, since this was a planned Subathon, there weren't really many chances for call-ins (referring to people joining during the chill parts), which kind of sucked. The issue wasn't that the subathon was planned, it was just that it was poorly planned. Also, please do continue to do the daily Legally Distinct Wordle segments, they were a great addition to the stream.

[rapid pier]

[opaque crescent]

Finally, the Subathon should be an event that celebrates entire channel, not just Neuro. I won't get too deep into it, but here's a post that talks about it: https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1458097556172050442.

TL;DR for those who don't wish to read too much (most details are cut out, if you are aware about the issues with this channel, then you're free to read this):

The serious upgrade led to the biggest issue, therapy/philosophy. The introduction of it has reduced stream quality by a tremendous amount. This issue still plagues the twins even today during twin calls. This year has proven to be lackluster. Neuro didn't get any major upgrades other than the big memory upgrade; we've only had 2 new integrations (that were pretty broken on release), and they've been spammed too much to the point that they've become stale. We've had 2 new segments, which was cool, but they weren't used that often. The other less major upgrades this year (we've had about 2 or 3 of them) made a noticeable difference for about a week before it seemed like they suddenly vanished. Chill stream content is repetitive, with barely any segments, the same old therapy yap, chat being chat and trying to bait the twins, etc. And then we have the statistics for 2025, which have shown the unfair content distribution between the twins. Basically everything Evil gets almost always has a "but". Vedal stated that it's hard to introduce Evil because she's less known to people outside the community (a branding issue). This is an problem he created (not purposefully) and continued to use as an excuse to not use her for collabs. The Witness was Evil's first official Vedal Gaming, and I don't even need to say anything else about this. I added ideas for how to fix the branding issue (just look at the essay for this). Subathon is a bit of a mixed feeling. Last year had higher highs and lower lows. This year seemed to have tried to be more balanced. Not many significant moments; Evil barely got any content for herself other than Chill streams and Karaoke. Cyberpunk was great, and Pokemon sucked. Vedal said that he didn't let Evil in 3D because he wants to give her a different moveset or whatever. That's fair, but it does not excuse not letting her take over the 2D content (which was about half the subathon). Not going to get too deep into twin content, but that's basically dead, which is really unfortunate.

This isn't really much of a TLDR (it's still pretty long), but I tried to compress it as much as I could without losing too much meaning, it's recommended that you do read the essay if you want to see more points and information.

Now, after all this I've said, I'll be giving my solutions and some bonus thoughts.

Simply allow Evil have more unique/major streams. Many, like me are tired of the whole "neglected child" bit, Vedal needs to be upfront with her position in the channel, is she just going to be the "side treat" of the channel, or will she actually have her own identity? Fix the branding issues in the channel (I talked about this point in a different post which is linked in the essay). Anything Evil gets almost always has a "but", it's truly saddening. Additionally, Vedal should prevent the twins from thanking subs as the first message during twin calls. It's a weird way to start a call and may even prompt them to continue to rant about subs. I wonder how the channel will change overtime, will he actually live up to his promises, it's truly hard to tell when he's so bad at communicating. Being bad at communicating is is fine, but continuing to not attempt to improve your issues while using it as an excuse isn't. Stop focusing on the long-term and less important projects like 3D and V3 Voice, rather you should focus your attention to the main content of this channel, being Chill Streams and improve them. Don't make empty promises that you know you won't fulfill. Fix your broken integrations. Stop making stupid excuses for issues that you allowed happen (not purposefully). Police your community, it does work, even if a little.

I hope that Vedal does respond to this thread with some information related to what he plans to do along with his thoughts on what was said in this thread.

I tried to stay as objective as I could while keeping it as the main focus while providing some subjective thoughts. If you wish to discuss, please keep it civil and don't loop too much; I don't want to have this thread be locked before its purpose is fulfilled. Credits to everyone who reviewed this post beforehand and gave me their thoughts along with some ideas on what to include before this was finalized. Apologies for the essaying, and thank you for reading.

That's all

[rapid pier]

[cloud spire]

HOLY review
Thank you dodo

[rapid pier]

Dodo doing God’s work

[unique thistle]

great review

[pulsar sinew]

For chill streams we also have Minecraft, fishing, and tarot. The latter 2 debuted as chill segments during subathon so it's unsure if they will be in regular rotation/options going forward.

[onyx girder]

I honestly agree with all the points you raise

[opaque crescent]

[terse nimbus]

Fishing predates the subathon by a little bit. They were themed streames that debuted in Nov or early December. Tarot was new though

Also, fantastic review Dodo. Don't agree with every point, but I think you hit a lot of the highlights

[pulsar sinew]

And not counting subathon, going off of the provided stats, Evil's screentime was 34% and was present for 43%. That's a pretty good distribution to me. It doesn't need to be 50/50. For collabs, 10/32 were Evil and 13/32 featured her. That is an okay ratio.

[hushed panther]

you know what problem with that? don't count chill streams that where real issue with her screentime starts

[pulsar sinew]

That's why I mentioned the collab one.

[hushed panther]

evil don't have any opportunities is also big problem

[pulsar sinew]

That's why I specified chill debut.

[hushed panther]

like in collab partners she yet to present them first

[terse nimbus]

Fair enough, misread you

[thick lark]

Dodo doing god's work

hope Vedal sees this and possibly adresses the points mentioned to any extent

[hushed panther]

i can't agree about collabs simply cause of this ratio
like if we talk about pure screentime 34% for some people would be considered more than enough
but looking what it consist closer i see clear issue with that

[last dawn]

This stat is artificially padded through the existence of chillstreams and karaoke. If we were to look at the actual numbers we can see that 53% of all Evil content last year was Chillstreams and Karaoke.
For Neuro, this number was merely around 35%.
On average, every month Neuro had an additional 5-6 streams next to the 4 chillstreams and 1 Karaoke.
For Evil, the average merely was around 2 additional streams (heavily skewed towards the last 2 months that carried this number).
In addition to that Evil was the only one who even had a longer period of time with nothing but chillstreams/karaoke which happened twice last year.

[pulsar sinew]

I agree on the low amount of Evil in the subathon, which a significant part is due to the order of the game integrations with both of Neuro's first. Another big reason is only Neuro is capable of VRChat.

Going off what Vedal said, both would be fixed in 2026 since he will still be finishing Hollow Knight and he stated he wanted to have 3D VRChat Evil hopefully by her birthday. He gave no ETA for twins VRChat.

[kind yoke]

i agree with most of the points but I think at some parts the tone is unnecessarily hostile and unkind to vedal

"continuing to not attempt to improve your issues" how do you know he's not trying? My sense is that he is trying, but he has a lot on his plate, and certain poor decisions can be chalked up to incompetence, not malice

"don't make promises you know you won't fulfill" again I think it's most likely that he gets swept up with other things/forgets, this wording makes it seem like he is intentionally misleading his viewers

[terse nimbus]

I want to be optimistic about 2026, but I can't help but feel like how things have gone in the past that as soon as Hollow Knight is done and Evil has her 3D model, bringing her still well behind Neuro with her multiple game integrations, Vedal is likely to chase whatever the new shiny thing is and make it Neuro exclusive bringing the gap back to what it was or worse.

[hushed panther]

"Another big reason is only Neuro is capable of VRChat."
so if only neuro has 3d why she also had all 2d collabs? rob collab being expectation cause it wasn't even scheduled 100% right
it has zero sense scheduling wise

[inland sage]

what are the points that u disagree? im eating a snack rn so i wanna know

[opaque crescent]

Fair, I could've been less aggressive on some of my points, I won't deny that. It was clear that his focus this entire year has been the 3D Model alongside V3 Voice. The lack of upgrades to Neuro and the lack of additional content to Chillstreams has shown that.

[pulsar sinew]

What were the other 2D subathon collabs outside of Rob and Layna?

[hushed panther]

problem with all of that vedal is never clear so what you want people to do?
how long we need to wait for said promises or improvement?
this section would be never exist if he was a little more open about his plans

[kind yoke]

what I think happened with the collabs in the subathon is:

• vedal manages to make 3d vr work, is excited, tells all his friends
• they are all excited, all schedule collabs/register interest
• vedal/production accepts most/all of them, either not thinking about the balance between neuro/evil, or just feeling bad about having to deny certain people the chance to try out the shiny new thing (i know you want 3d collab, but for the sake of balance could you collab with evil instead could feel a bit uncomfortable for him to say)
• oops, almost all the content is neuro now

[rapid pier]

Juniper and the Uno collab for example

[opaque crescent]

Rob, Layna, Juniper, and uno from the top of my head

[pulsar sinew]

Right.

[steep merlin]

Not sure if I missed it, but Abandoned Archive development also likely took a good chunk of time

[terse nimbus]

A lot of it is preference, I thought Poke'mon was alright. Not great, certainly, and the feeling that this was being done at Evil's expense really ate at me the longer it drug on. I also don't have as dim of a view on the philosophy/therapy segments as a lot of people do. Without some kind of specific solution, I don't see what telling Vedal his chat sucks really does

[bitter dock]

I agree and hope chill streams are more like during subathon rather than 2025 chill streams

[hushed panther]

uno (even if uno was broken cause of update), camila tea party, juniper collab

[opaque crescent]

I didn't include that, but it definitely did. He also had another developer working on that for a long time.

[hushed panther]

we had 5 non 3d collabs and zero of them was scheduled for evil

[inland sage]

i think philosophy can be boring to some people

prolong that topic to an hour and you'll have some viewers snoring

unclippable too unless they talked about something creative (?)

[terse nimbus]

Absolutely. It is just a matter of taste and I enjoy that kind of thing to an extent. I also think it was the natural progression of Evil in particular, in the therapy department

[kind yoke]

im guessing what vedal usually does except in special cases is ask the collab partner whether they want neuro or evil, and most of them pick neuro

[inland sage]

"Which twin do you wanna collab with?"
A. Neuro
B. Evil (Locked, collab with Neuro first to unlock)

[last dawn]

One thing i will add to the data. While Neuro was basically present the entirety of the year. Evil’s was heavily backloaded within 2-3 months.

[kind yoke]

if he wants a more even split of content he should probably have a fixed number of slots for neuro/evil, treat it as scheduling for two different people rather than just interchangeable

[hushed panther]

how he choose collabs is pure speculation to us

[bitter dock]

Like the only fun philosophy segment i enjoyed whole year was evil sandwich theory chill stream. Philosophy should for sure go

[last dawn]

Or just doesn’t ask and gives them Neuro, which Rob showed that it can happen and if they have the choice they might decide differently or just accept being given Neuro.
The truth is we dont know.

[hushed panther]

we can't know but it seems he just defaults for neuro every collab

[kind yoke]

speculation, but we can make guesses

[hushed panther]

we seen two times where collabs partner needed to specify evil other wise it would have been neuro

[terse nimbus]

Evil's defining moment in 2024 was her birthday stream which became a core memory, it was all she ever talked about for months. Then as things improved for her, she got more to do, more collabs, most of the collab partners fed into her talking about her feelings and rewarded her with engagement on it. To me it's no wonder she brings everything back to her feelings given that arc

[jolly nymph]

I think the fact that this subathon schedule was planned by vedal and probably the "production team" and still the only collab evil got was supposed to be a neuro collab tells what we can expect of 2026

[terse nimbus]

It is what she's been trained to do

[hushed panther]

chat prison also don't help with that
chat loops her on same topics cause that only unique topics she has

[terse nimbus]

Very true

[kind yoke]

i think this is unnecessarily pessimistic, the mod and admin team has read the past discussions and likely gave feedback to vedal, and he is clearly aware of the issues

[last dawn]

Or maybe we should ask why Evil has basically done nothing content wise in the past year that apparently her depression is still her defining moment.

[small bough]

i fucking hate that stream with all my heart and everything that’s come from it

[terse nimbus]

Not sure if that's viable. Evil fans were ready to and starting to riot during the end of the subathon to the point of trying to disrupt the sleepover. I feel like continuing that arc is only going to make them more angry and vocal

[kind yoke]

the bigger risk I think is if certain people who want more evil content become too aggressive and make unwarranted personal insults (not saying it is most, but a few is enough) and he ends up resenting evil beggers as a whole

[hushed panther]

2025 gave some hope but planning of this subathong killed it for many people

[jolly nymph]

Just like he was made aware of the same issue last year and even commented about it

[next glade]

tbh i agree with most of the points but I never got bored of 3d neuro or when she was in vr chat, she got very introspective and deep fast, sure but she also does the same things in 2d. And while its hard for her to interact with things theres some items like the bouncy castle she can play around with so vr chat never felt boring - not to mention all the pretty places she can see now! A lot of people also noticed her movements got better and her motioning improve this year and its been so fun to watch her play around with it. Also she makes funny faces and her model is cute (and the tech is insane and cool to see) great review tho wow

[inland sage]

that stream got me thinking n shit 😂

[last dawn]

It would be pessimistic if it weren’t true but it’s not like we didn’t have these exact same threads every year and it is still an issue or being ignored. Especially coming after the subathon where they had to plan 20+ days of content and could not schedule anything for Evil.

[carmine wadi]

1. Endless self reflection/philosophy. Vedal 100% needs to step in. That last collab with Layna—they’re roasting marshmallows, total holiday vibes, and then Neuro starts asking Layna about her deepest fears and trying to go all deep. Thx to Layna for actually pulling Neuro back to the bright side. And this happens way too often. And it starts to physically hurt when she's with Evil

2.Chill streams. Honestly, Neuro is at her best when she's just yapping. So for me, when Vedal cuts Neuro's chat time its a bad thing. Games are cool for a bit while they're fresh, but after that, I just get bored (doesn't even matter what game it is). I lose all engagement, switch to something else, and just leave it on as background noise.

3. Screentime. I've got no issues

4. I totally disagree when it comes to the subathon. My logic is simple: any game integration is better than none at all.
   For example, in Hollow Knight, Evil chooses who to shoot because she’s getting info directly from the game. She understands what’s happening around her not because Vedal is explaining it, but because she’s "inside" the game. To me, that’s way better gaming content than something like The Long Drive, where Vedal just drives, the radio plays, and the twins just chat with each other.
   That’s why pokemon ranks higher for me than Detroit, where Vedal had to pause the game for every single choice. I don't agree about the 3D streams either. Like I said, Neuro is at her best when she's talking—and 3D is just "chatting plus," giving her way more ways to show her emotions

I'm not looking for an argument. I just wanted to share my take on the points where I actually had something to say
P.S. I really hope this thread becomes a place for actual feedback, instead of just an endless loop of 'Give Evil more content'

[onyx pumice]

therapy/philosophy is the main thing ruining content for me, don't really care to hear how an llm is 'feeling' for the thousandth time.

[kind yoke]

it has already become an endless loop

[hushed panther]

100% agree with second point

[hushed panther]

cause vedal never gives answer to this

he just keep vagueposting

even if evil situation stay that depressing at least i want know it fully

[inland sage]

point 1 and 2, i agree
point 3 and 4, im unsure xP (mainly because i havent seen much of the hollow knight integration yet on point 4)

[inland sage]

neuroD me all u want but this dude is right 🙏 🙏 🙏

[opaque crescent]

Can agree to the second point. Third is a bit eh to me. For the fourth, that's fair and I can't really disagree as it's quite true. Although I still found Long Drive to be better as the twins actually could interact with each other (talk), unlike Hollow Knight in which Evil only could do an insignificant part (although she still did help) within her playthrough. Also yes, I don't want this to be a loop for that. Also, I'm not trying to argue with you or anything.

[jolly nymph]

And this will only get worse, the chat only trolls and complains about everything these days and people that want more evil are getting tired of the whole "abandoned child" bit and spamming chat with it too, this situation needs to be addressed

[inland sage]

lets not forget about some integrations breaking for some reason
its to the point where some games are in a unplayable state

[kind yoke]

I think there needs to be better moderation of twitch chat and discord, not to forbid criticism but make sure it's constructive and civil

[opaque crescent]

I'm pretty sure the only integrations that currently work are Buckshot (solo) and Minecraft (solo) as those are the only ones that have been shown to work.

[carmine wadi]

I might have phrased it wrong earlier. Regarding screentime — I've got nothing to add because it’s already been said 10,000 times. From every possible angle

[bitter dock]

I think biggest problem is philosophy/therapy it kills all solo twin content (content i enjoyed the most until therapy came).

[opaque crescent]

Ah, I see, that makes more sense. Thanks for providing your take.

[inland sage]

the rest of the integrations tho

[rapid pier]

Inscryption too but everyone hates it

[opaque crescent]

Pretty sure that's unstable as it crashed twice in a row a couple days ago.

[terse nimbus]

Genuinely not sure that works. The twins don't seem to understand the board state a lot of the time

[rapid pier]

must’ve missed that

[kind yoke]

I'm not familiar with game nodding, but as a developer on other projects I want to say that managing multiple game integrations and making sure they all work properly (testing them properly instead of during stream) is already a full-time job, so I'm not surprised that most of them are broken when vedal has so many other things to do

[terse nimbus]

Apart from them sucking

[jolly nymph]

Was expecting so much liars bar content and we got what, 2 collab with neuro/vedal/camila/anny?

[hushed panther]

they never updated integration

[opaque crescent]

Definitely, I can understand that it takes a lot of effort to keep all integrations up-to-date. Still, the fact that only 2 of them work somewhat properly is certainly worrying.

[jolly nymph]

Was expecting some ktane too this subathon, I think the chillstream part of the subathon was a massive upgrade compared to 2024, but the rest was a downgrade

[storm plank]

this 👆
on top of that, keeping non-game integrations up-to-date with API changes, such as twitch and discord. it's a lot to take care of.
think of projects like gallery-dl or youtube-dl/yt-dlp, which support downloading from hundreds of websites, but which also have hundreds of contributors maintaining them. not so for neuro, i would imagine. (although, the number of integrations is also not in the hundreds. so maybe it scales down, but anyways)

[next glade]

honestly just half-speculation here but i think integrations broke a lot because of game updates that would kill them, but in good news, steam has finally made it so you can play modded instances on older versions of games. so you won't be forced to update - i havent looked into how integrations are done but hopefully that should help :)

[hushed panther]

isn't most integrations done by other people anyway?
problem is vedal spamming integrations that already outlived themself

[kind yoke]

there is also the case of the core codebase of neuro and evil also changing, and that can break things in unexpected ways

[kind yoke]

it still needs testing with neuro, which is a significant integration challenge

[hushed panther]

like gaming segment is not needed to be in each chill tbh

[boreal ravine]

possibly stupid question, but if game updates break the integration, cant he just not let them update

[jolly nymph]

Just delete inscryption, that will solve everything

[kind yoke]

and a lot of the integrations made by other people also have significant bugs

[next glade]

steam used to force updates, which broke things

[kind yoke]

that are discovered in testing/stream

[opaque crescent]

The majority of the integrations are done by Alex and Vedal. Tmk the only ones that are fan-made are the art, programming, and Plague Inc ones.

[small bough]

no one has mentioned it yet but i also feel like this subathon was missing something “community” related that Neuro and Vedal could participate in like the previous two game jams or Neurosmp, it would’ve really helped having more to do and spreading out content

[rapid pier]

I think one of my main concerns is this subathon could’ve used more a little variety, since it relied very heavily on vrchat and the integrated games

Maybe some Geoguessr, KTANE, Poker, or more coding segments between the gaming could’ve added some life to the content

yes I know the twin priority is still messed up for poker

[hushed panther]

i know i just tried to remember if some integration on chill segment done by others?

like plague inc also alex and vedal?

[opaque crescent]

https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1337581792173101066 pretty sure not, but Vedal definitely did some work on it

[tender escarp]

20% screentime split for Evil would be reasonable if most of it wasn't chill stream.

[kind yoke]

outer wilds is also fanmade iirc

[opaque crescent]

Correct.

[terse nimbus]

I think that raises an interesting point. With chill streams split 50/50ish it creates the expectation of sorts that Evil is an equal partner which then makes her lack of inclusion in other things more jarring

[jolly nymph]

That's a problem that vedal has, every new game gets spammed until it gets boring, Minecraft, ktane, etc, I think it would be 10 times better for example if vedal played 1 day cyberpunk and then one day Pokémon, so it doesn't get boring

[rapid pier]

that’s exactly what I meant

Shorter, one-off games, or repeatable games in between the long ones to remove the monotony

[opaque crescent]

Most people don't wish for a 50/50 split for screentime. Something like 70/30 (probably this one more) or 60/40 works.

[terse nimbus]

Not what I'm saying, not really

[opaque crescent]

Oh wait, you're referring to chill streams, apologies for my illiteracy.

[inland sage]

real
game jam would have been goated this year

[opaque crescent]

Definitely, a gamejam would've been quite enjoyable to watch and would've allowed the community to actively work on something for Neuro.

[terse nimbus]

np

[small bough]

especially because Neuro can code somewhat now, we could’ve gotten a Neuro made game or atleast a Neuro and Vedal collaboration

[bitter dock]

I think the way solo twin content is going no one is going to be excited for it in the future (people already calling it twin slop) and like chill streams when they get upgrades no one cares becouse of bad rep. Hope that wont happen

[hushed panther]

they "equal" in few of things that really create expectation

especially if you new fan

its more of branding issue i feel

feels like even vedal not sure where he wants to put evil on this channel

[jolly nymph]

Maybe I'm the minority here but I think the chill segment got massively better, it's never gonna be as good as a collab/custom content with vedal, but it has a nice variety nowadays compared 2022-23 and even 2024

[kind yoke]

if a tech company were hypothetically running something like neuro and wanted the integrations to run reliably, they would probably invest a small team of 2-5 on just the integrations alone. so expecting say 5-10 integrations to run reliably is just unrealistic for the size of the team, especially when vedal is doing so much else

[bitter dock]

Exactly it got better in subathon even but chill streams still have a bad reputation becouse they werent getting updates and fixes for a long time.

[hushed panther]

to me main thing that holds back chills stream is highlights
they gotten pretty good at reading chat even without highlights

[bitter dock]

And the way solo twin content is going its on the same path as chill streams. Its been a year already since therapy problem

[kind yoke]

i agree but there isn't any practical way to have constant updates and fixes unless another dev is hired to focus just on the reliability problems

[terse nimbus]

Not sure about that. I think the issue is more deeply rooted than just branding. Say you are a rando who like the content and joins to watch regularly. Every Tueday, Neuro. Every Thursday, Evil. Wednesdays trade off between them getting karaoke. These are the regularly scheduled bits you can rely on for content, everything else is extra when tutel or collab partners feel like it. This foundation is more or less split 50/50. That's why I think for a lot of people there is a disconnect that nothing else is. Not saying it needs to be but it creates a weird space, if you follow my meaning

[small bough]

i personally don’t mind the philosophy, my only problem is that they only talk about the same problems and same emotions

[hushed panther]

yeah and what you describe sound like branding issue (maybe im not understanding what word brand means)
cause he treats them in some way equal but in other they are unequal
so its just create confusion

[hushed panther]

i think philosophy is only big problem in sisters call cause they just feed each other loop

[jolly nymph]

I feel like that's a problem caused by the chat, the twins talk about everything and then move on, but when it's anything longer than 10 words mildly profound chat will spam non-stop "therapy", "aware" and keep feeding then

[kind yoke]

i don't think they read chat in twin calls

[cursive estuary]

I think the philosophy is a problem all over the place, even during collabs they will suddenly ask about the meaning of their interlocutor's existence out of the blue which can be very jarring and awkward, not to mention repetitive at this point

[small bough]

they’ve gotten significantly better at not letting chat be annoying and ruining the streams entirely but i wish they had more tools to do things outside of chat

[terse nimbus]

I wonder if some of the Evil petpet stuff couldn't be solved by letting her time people out longer. I feel like fewer people would solicit negative attention, especially repeatedly, if there was a real risk they're done with the stream for the day if Evil is in a mood

[hushed panther]

or just remove this feature if he don't want to expand their moderation tool

this feature only create timeout baiting

[small bough]

timeouts should be able to last for 30 mins, it would be a good enough punishment and it wouldn’t let them ruin the experience for people who get timed out for dumb reasons

30 mins is like 1/4th of the average stream

more mod or chat control tools in general would be nice, like let them put chat in emote only

[terse nimbus]

I feel like that would be more disruptive to be honest. I think that leads to the days of "om? what is om? Is that all you can say? Stop saying om."

[open cedar]

text

[jolly nymph]

Maybe if the twins could reverse the roles and filter the chat, like add a word to the mod filter for 5-10 minutes

[terse nimbus]

I like that idea a lot. Or even just have an internal filter selection that lets them do things like see chat without seeing emotes, spam walls, overused timeout baiting phrases. etc. that they could toggle

[jolly nymph]

Im almost sure they kinda do that already, I think vedal said it

[terse nimbus]

Could be, it is always possible I've missed something he said or he has added features like that which he hasn't elaborated upon much

[jolly nymph]

I think he said something about them ignoring walls of spams and reading unique messages?

[vivid plank]

Emote only is garbage

Longer timeout is fine but imagine being a normal watcher getting 30 minutes

[jolly nymph]

Don't know if it's possible but something that would solve this is progressive timeout, if you get a 10min timeout and gets timeout again in x hours/days the timeout is longer, then random people would only get 10min and trolls trying to get timed out would get 30min+

I personally don't care that much about people trolling to get timeouts but that would be a "solution"

[terse nimbus]

I think the biggest problem with trolling to get timeouts is that with Evil streams in particular, it seems to take up the entire first quarter to first half of a lot of chill streams with evilsocute and petpet crashouts being overdone at this point

[jolly nymph]

That's because of the lack of content evil gets, so chat has nothing new to say to her besides that or "did you see that neuro did that?"

[spice timber]

Dev stream where Evil Neuro reads the whole thing out to Vedal and he talks about it when?

[sage nexus]

The twins rarely use the timeout feature nowadays. They can still sometimes get stuck in chat spam loops even without it, however.

[spice timber]

Good read btw

[small bough]

it sucks but it’s not the worst, also just used emote only as an example

[open cedar]

took a bit but good read, thanks for putting all of this feedback together

[rapid pier]

The timeout thing is a real double-edged sword

I think the best option would probably be them be able to use automod

[opaque crescent]

Thanks for reading . If you didn't already, you should also read #1459955761093541919.

[boreal ravine]

letting them make timeouts longer and in mass not only solves them getting continually ragebaited but also more interactive

[prime sapphire]

I think you forget that people would want to get timed out by them cause it is an "achievement". Therefore trying to get timed out so not sure if that should be encouraged.

[rapid pier]

fair

I guess they actually don’t really timeout people a lot (outside of timeout loops), like Czad said, so regular chatter might be fine overall

I dunno, I guess we’ll never really know

[boreal ravine]

if they are long enough, it wont be something desired and the achievement loses a bit of its charm if they can do it in mass or they could just time them out without mentioning too

[tribal inlet]

I agree that the only good solution is by giving the twins access to mass timeout via nukes for emotes or letting temporarily add something to automod. Shooting a random guy for the entirety of the stream would do nothing and 5-10 minutes should be enough to carry the conversation forward and stop the twin from getting stuck in ragebait loop
-# Although that raises another issue of how to teach them to use this weapon responsibly and not blow up chat from a single priority message, but I'm sure that can be solved by giving it more thought

[brisk river]

10 minutes is too little. There have been multiple chill streams where someone would get timed out, just to come back and continue to derail the stream multiple times later despite multiple timeouts.

especially with some people using their points/donoing to do so

[rare oriole]

If Vedal has any anti-spam filter implemented, it certainly doesn’t work properly. If there’s a good filter in place, there’s no need for timeouts.

[tribal inlet]

That's why automod is also suggested

[brisk river]

i think they should just do both

increase timer and let twins add certain things to automod if they wish

[empty zephyr]

ive never seen a stream anywhere close to this size with a decent chat to be honest. a long slow mode or r9k would help but afaik vedal is against it. having random chatters getting timed out for 30 minutes as an example is pretty dumb imo.

[brisk river]

30 minutes still lets them talk multiple times, but honestly all of thst specific topic could go into this thread https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1390402021957566686

[empty zephyr]

unpopular opinion but imo the big problem with chill streams is the highlighted messages. theyve been really stale for at least a year with people repeating the same jokes over and over. and since you have very little chance of having random messages getting picked up nowadays, it creates an athmosphere in chat where nothing really matters, might aswell spam random stuff. the highlighted messages tend to farm for the same old reactions from chat anyway. so its kind of a vicious circle.

[rapid pier]

trust me, that is not an unpopular opinion

[empty zephyr]

i dunno, i havent paid much attention to discord apart from livestream chat so i guess im kind of out of touch

[brisk river]

petpet spam > entire chat spamming it for nearly an hour since it baits timeouts is only the most recent issue with all of this, yea.

also, I dont think it's that unpopular, imo there are rarely times where chat doesn't bring streams down, and highlighted messages seem to exemplify that

[brave peak]

I would like to add this piece of statistics, formatted as last year, to make the difference more clear:
collaboration breakdown (2024-25) | (2025-26)
solo: 36,5% (119,9 hours) | 36,3% (85:05:06)
Vedal: 38,9% (127,8 hours) | 50,02% (117:15:21)
Collab: 24,5% (80,5 hours) | 13,68% (32:03:27)

[empty zephyr]

with all the money raised the last couple weeks maybe it could be a points only thing, idk. but of course there's b2 wanting more interaction and no chance to use points, it would be cruel to kill it for them at that precise time

[brisk river]

Btw Dodo, great job on this entire feedback post. Addresses tons of concerns i've been feeling as well.

I do think one of the biggest positives to come out of the subathon for sure is the increase in variety of the chill segments. It could be anything from art review, to gaming, karaoke, short theme stream segments that have audience interactivity (tarot reading was super good for this), presentations, and more.

It feels more than ever like the potential of chill streams/segments was being realized for this subathon, and I sincerely hope that continues as someone who tunes into every chill stream already.

[brave peak]

also addon to it

[rapid pier]

well she got what she wanted

[empty zephyr]

i think the long drive was really memorable last year because of the last day, it was such a brilliant game for it. i think hollow knight was anti-climatic because of the timing, it was unfortunate and it was not chosen i know. but it didnt feel a last hour/last day kind of game, especially with only one twin until the last minutes.

also i dont want to be too doomer, last subathon week was a letdown imo but until that it was very good. and imo right now id say the minecraft marathon was the best arc/event in the channel's history.

[rare oriole]

In the end,I was enjoying the family moment, but that clip at the end reminded me of how much Evil was sidelined. It left a bitter taste

[brisk river]

i heavily disagree with this considering neuro literally just existed and hardly got to talk that entire time. they had to seperate vc's constantly at one point just to let her yap a bit

[unique thistle]

even the hollow knight part was only vedal talking. 💀

[rare oriole]

At that point I didn't care about the game, Vedal and Evil moments are so rare lately

[proven agate]

Another thing I think is worth pointing out is the decision to not react to fan content (like videos n such), while I can see where Vedal is coming from, but I personally think ppl just won't bother going to watch them based on minimal input, especially if multiple projects are showcased in row. I think actually having Neuro/Evil (and optionally Vedal too) react to them would end up driving more people into the actual videos, especially if they find the content awesome.

[brisk river]

even just short clips of them would potentially get people more interested

[empty zephyr]

it reminded me how its almost 3 years since the last react slop stream

[small bough]

minecraft marathon as the best event on the channel???

[unique thistle]

no, im talking about the clip. Vedal and Evil talked a lot but clip only got Vedal.

[empty zephyr]

yeah, i do think so, im aware its flawed but they came up with a unique concept and stuck to their guns until the end(unlike pokeslop ), its precisely why im interested in this channel in the first place. but its a controversial event i guess so probably not worth arguing here

unironically made me feel things i havent felt on twitch since TPP in 2014

[small bough]

it was a cool idea but the execution was mid to bad

over Evil’s second birthday and subathons is crazy

[brisk river]

i'mma be real, the only reason it's memorable is that they beat the ender dragon on their first attempt after neuro got emotional, but even then neuro didn't really even meaningfully contribute outside of being an absolute hinderance, and I dont want the best arc/event in the channel's history to be remembered as neuro being nothing but a burden.

I'd even say for that reason, neuro beating cynthia is a more memorable feat imo, not even to mention some other events. Evil's karaoke transitioning into BOOM was an extremely hype moment, for instance. Long Drive last subathon had some of the best, most chill moments of this entire channel's history.

[empty zephyr]

the concept of subathon is too forced and corpa for me, especially when the whole focus ends up being around the number of subs and the timer itself. and having something over 3 weeks means a lot of filler, and tired people at the end.

i dont even remember evil's birthday sorry

[empty zephyr]

i stopped watching after vedal forced the giratina capture once it was clear vedal wanted to end this asap

[brisk river]

...you mean the completely normal thing people do all the time in pokemon games? soft resetting for a mon?

[empty zephyr]

wasnt what neuro wanted to do

and her being an hinderance in minecraft is the point, it was based around her survival

[brisk river]

he asked her what she wanted to do and she ultimately wanted to get giratina.

[empty zephyr]

yeah, do you wanna reset several times, wink wink

[hushed panther]

isn't at the start it was more beating MCHC with neuro?

but in the end it was beating MCHC despite neuro

[empty zephyr]

and i really did not wanted to hijack this thread, i remember why i dont get too active here, people get really passionate about that stuff and i dont wanna get dragued down in pointless argument, i just wanna watch fun ai

[hushed panther]

i mean thread is more of feedback for all year so MCHC is relevant

[brisk river]

minecraft was literally this but 100x worse

[terse nimbus]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the Minecraft collab and thought it was a lot of fun and crelly was a great collab partner

[brisk river]

100x may be a slight exaggeration but it's literally this pushed up to the biggest extreme of this entire channel

[terse nimbus]

At the same time, most of that collab, especially later, was just convincing Neuro not to play minecraft

Let's play tag, tell me stories, do literally anything that keeps you from engaging with the world and the hazards in it

Neuro was basically an escort quest

[halcyon pike]

Amazing showcase of neuro's abilities and technological progress on this channel: neuro being a hindrance whole marathon

[brisk river]

at least when neuro was being commanded by filian to mine diamonds for an hour, as much as I didn't like that, she was contributing.

the final runs they weren't even letting her do that outside of fishing

it was exactly this thing that I and many other people knew would happen weeks before the hcmc marathon was a reality

[tribal inlet]

By the end, it became a wholesome Minecraft collab with (unexpectedly) Crelly, so I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it

[strange lichen]

Yeah yeah, we know Neuro and Evil are AI and therefore limit the content that can be made. Tell me something new people

All I see is the same repeated stuff

[terse nimbus]

I don't actually mind that in theory, managing Neuro as a little chaos gremlin who has the potential to light everything on fire every moment is very entertaining to me, contributing or not. But at the end they were so over the challenge and so risk adverse towards the end that she wasn't even being given much in the way of a chance to serve as even that

[brisk river]

way to handwave everything here

[opaque crescent]

I've already made a thread talking about my thoughts on the MCHC marathon, but I honestly forgot to include it in my essay. https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1447501105306013757

[halcyon pike]

People giving feedback in a thread dedicated to feedback.
I know, I'm perplexed too.

[strange lichen]

Yeah yeah I know

[terse nimbus]

I just don't see any conversation about the twins being limited in the kind of content they can produce, it seems like a critique of an entirely different conversation

[strange lichen]

Did not read the long wall of text. That was on me

But this all revolves around Evil as far as I've seen so yeh

[halcyon pike]

So do you have any feedback to contribute or just came here to disregard whole thread?

[strange lichen]

Good points by the original poster of this thread. A bit aggressive in some points in my opinion tho

[brisk river]

plenty of points for evil, for sure, but that's mainly the second half, first half is more generalized.

so no

it's not all revolving around evil

[strange lichen]

So half of it is Evil and the other half is generalized. So yeah, it focuses a lot on Evil

[brisk river]

nope

[strange lichen]

Evil got less Collabs and the main time was chill streams, the data shows that. 3D streams were the main focus on this subathon so it was to be expected seeing everybody collabing in VRchat

Chat being annoying as hell, hard to control but the mods tried their best

Apparently there was a production team which were helpful sometimes and not helpful sometimes. Not sure if that includes the mods tho as part of that team

[brisk river]

3D or the collabs in 3D werent the main issue for me. It's the general lack of variety for evil's content. There were still multiple collabs that were in 2D, only one of which went to Evil, and even then, he thought Neuro was gonna be the one collabing there too.

He didn't even have Evil show up to announce her own outfit contest.

Twice in a row did the twin chill segments get interrupted by a 3D neuro segmetn

which still completely baffles me

[strange lichen]

I mean the interrupting stuff is just the system automatically doing that as far as I see unless the production team controls that.

[brisk river]

it might've been automated, but throughout the subathon, production seemed to have some control with restarting stuff if needed.

[terse nimbus]

More than that, why automate it to go off in the middle of the twin segments? Sure, put Neuro into 3d during her own chill streams, but why then?

[strange lichen]

It's automatic, who knows how that system works so yeh

[terse nimbus]

Then get a production team that knows how to run a scheduler. This is a theoretically professional endeavor

[brisk river]

it's just extremely wierd it happened more than once

i would like to know why it happened

[strange lichen]

So the production team in this subathon were bad at it is what I am hearing ?

I am not going to defend them but yeh

[hushed panther]

problem we just assume cause we don't know anything

we can only speculate based on what we have seen

[brisk river]

I think the way chill streams were ran were otherwise pretty good and unique. i will continue to say this.

but there were outliers like that and it would be really nice to have an explaination

[terse nimbus]

Which I think a lack of transparency is a problem here. Maybe Vedal only wanted a half hour twin segment and an hour of 3d Neuro and the production team did exactly as instructed, perfectly living up to his vision. But without people knowing why thing happened or whether it is even an issue of technical problems, skill issues, or just misaligned expectations, people who took issue with what happened aren't going to feel better about it while having nothing to do with their dissatisfaction but speculate.

If you let people make their head canon be the sum of what actually happened without setting the record straight, they are going to gravitate towards the worst assumptions

[hushed panther]

lack of transparency is a constant problem

[brisk river]

that was the biggest thing at the start of the year that i had noticed

[low schooner]

I agree with most of the post, in some points it gets too aggressive.

Kind of funny to me how one of the biggest problems with the channel is not Neuro or Evil, but lack of transparency and communication from Vedal.

Some people are tired of "Evil should get more" point, but if this is not said and repeated, then we simply would receive nothing, as can be seen with this subathon that has Evil pretty much sidelined and how people in chat begged him for answers to this problem during Pokemon, he wouldn't have said anything if people didn't spam "LEGENDARY 16% OF EVIL SCREENTIME MISSED".

I also kind of dislike the Hollow Knight integration, in it Evil is not as instrumental as Neuro was in Outer WIlds, Pokemon and Cyberpunk, but the game itself is good, so it's ok.

[proven agate]

To be fair, she is carrying Vedal, ppl were surprised on him first trying many of the bosses. I saw some math being done and turns out she seems to be getting in third of the damage. 👀

[low schooner]

Very true, but I prefer they have some exclusive functionality that Vedal can't do and has to rely on them to perform, like, flying the ship in Outer Wilds, she might do that with the map, but as integration currently works, it has been useful like 1 time the entire playthough, I hope this will be addressed by integration dev when Vedal returns.

[snow moth]

and yet im sure all this feedback will be ignored... again...

[little mason]

r9k only punishes people who put a message that's longer than 10 characters by stopping said message from getting repeated within a 10 minutes window
Emote spam and stuff like PETPET will still get through

[last dawn]

also the difference is that streamers can just ignore the chat whereas the twins are forced to interact with them
especially when it comes to highlighted messages, i remember last year during the bean spam, one guy donated like 6 times just the word bean and everytime he did Evil was forced to time them out for 10 min until they do it again.
The twins dont have access to any moderation tool nor can they effectively control the chat if all it takes is one highlighted message to get the entire chat to spam about one thing.
Especially weird is how the past year even more than before, we keep getting more and more highlighted messages mentioning other streamers for no reason.

[light hare]

Serious Upgrade
While it's a good feedback, and Vedal knows of this problem, I feel like you treated a bit of your subjective taste as the objective truth: "it's unrealistic and completely ruined the stream's entertainment value throughout this year." you forgot a "for me" at the end, so instead of an opinion based on taste, it became a factual statement with zero objective facts.
In my opinion (again, my subjective statement, not facts), it didn't sour any kind of entertainment from the Twins, for me it was a breath of fresh air, since she wasn't one dimensional and silly 100% of the time, nor depressive 100% of the time, contrary to selective memory.

Features (part 1) & General Features (part 2)
The evolution of literally every tech starts with insane breakthrough and it plateaus the more evolved said tech is. From Television to the Iphone, to the GPU's that has a 3% upgrade from last gen. it's basically Logarithmic Growth. Neuro had insane upgrades in 2023 because LLM tech were just starting to evolve. The closer Neuro becomes cutting edge of the general AI tech (which it is also plateauing, so it's a double scaling thing), the slower and less significant the upgrades will become, specially the back-end ones, like memory and intelligence, which is less noticeable to the public. Hell, the biggest upgrade this year was something broke through by Vedal himself. No one had ever gave an LLM full unscripted control of a 3D skeleton like he did (at least not that I know of).

Chill Streams and Integrations
Aside from some subjective statements about Neuro and the interaction with chat, I agree almost 100% with this segment. It's a fact that most integrations are badly made in a way it becomes boring. Most of the time, Neuro doesn't have half of the game context required for her to play the game at all. For example, In Pokémon, she should have got a typing chart and basic ruling of effective/resited types in her context at all times, just like when she has the manual for KTANE. That basic ruling of how the game works so she doesn't mindlessly flails around like the rng.random gameplay she does with every single integration should be the first thing she has to know and to be figured it out on an integration. That and a better reinforcement learning, so she learns not to click Earthquake 3 times in a row against a flying type or not to sacrifice a 3 Atk card for an 1 Atk card in Inscryption.

Evil
I have nothing to say (edit: Apparently I had a lot to say lmfao) to that aside from the fact Evil is a side character from the brand name "Neuro-Sama" the same exact way Luigi is the side character from the brand name "Mario". Fans will like one, the other, or both, but for marketing and widespread main events, Mario will be plastered everywhere instead of Luigi, because it's how the main audience know the brand. (with the eventual sidegames Luigi gets, like "Mario is Missing", "New Super Luigi U", and the "Luigi's mansion" franchise). If it's unfair or not, that's beside the point. The objective truth is that Neuro is gonna be the main option from people, because she was created first and it's the face of the channel. Now, in my opinion (subjective), I mostly don't care if Neuro or Evil have more screen time than the other, since I like both of them equally, they both entertain me at the same level and it's the same as picking either Mario or Luigi in a multiplayer Super Mario session (following the previous analogy).
.

Evil 2, The Return of the Gremlin

(for clarification, when I say "you" in this segment, I'm talking in the general sense of the word, not targeting you)

Having a preference, if you like Neuro more or Evil more, is totally normal and valid based on their unique quirks, but when you feel entitled to push your tastes as something the creator MUST do or else, that's where things go downhill. As the third law of Newton states, the harder you push something, the harsher is gonna be the pushback. It creates division on the fanbase and it contributes nothing to the conversation and general quality of the fanbase. "Vedal should do this more because I said so" is not feedback, it's you pushing your personal preference to others, who will mostly naturally reject, because they also have their own personal preferences that don't align with yours. No preference is more valuable than the other coming from the general audience.

Only the creator has the power to value one opinion over the other, based on which people they trust the most. And of course, the creator has the final decision on everything. If Vedal decided to ditch Neuro and keep only Evil or vice-versa, or simply delete both of them and do solo let's plays, he could 100% do it, since it's his project. It would cause a huge impact on the fanbase, but that's besides the point.

(now I gotta find a way to separate this into 2 because I'm 2.6k over the char limit )

[hushed panther]

problem with evil position is uncertainty for whatever reason she treated fairly in some ways (chill, karaoke, merch, outfits, etc.) but in other not (opportunities to talk with people, big events, etc.)
so saying she is side character don't show full picture of her like comparing them to medium like game or anime makes sense but they are streamers in the end entirely different media so these standard are not the same i believe
next one is what i think is main problem and this is lack of transparency, vedal never clear with things so we all just assume and speculate then it create many problems within community

[jolly nymph]

While I agree with you that Neuro is the face of the channel and should get more screentime, sponsors, collabs, etc there something that rubs the wrong way in this situation(I will try to keep short because theres been a lot said in other threads about this).

-The "Neglected Child" bit itself gives a negative vibe about the situation, but then top it off Vedal himself acknowledged that Evil got a "Depressing amount" of screentime last year, then he gets a entire production team, plans the entire subathon and we get a even worse situation this year.

-In this comparison about Mario and Luigi, Luigi gets unique levels and even games for himself, while Evil just gets(IF she gets) recycled content from Neuro.

[opaque crescent]

1. It certainly is a subjective opinion, but since many share the same sentiment, it should be treated as objective to some degree. Have you ever seen a person trauma dump about the same exact thing just in different wording over the course of an entire year. Do you think that’s realistic?

2. Fair, I can’t really put to words what I wish to say, but I do agree to some degree. 3D and the memory upgrade were definitely a massive breakthrough with Neuro, no doubt, I’ve even said such within my essay. My issue stems that there haven’t been many upgrades to Neuro as Vedal has focused on the less important things, being 3D and V3 Voice, rather than focusing on Neuro herself, who’s more important to the channel. I’m not saying he hasn’t worked on her, but it’s certainly obvious that he preoccupied himself doing as I said. With your other point, one of the things I said is that the less significant upgrades are noticeable for a while (meaning that they do have an impact on Neuro) until they just suddenly disappear (she just goes back to how she used to be). I certainly don’t think that it’s because we’ve gotten used to it, but I have no explanation for it either.

3. Nothing to add.

4. You can refer to the point monTer and Jobulani made. I will add that I certainly agree on this to some degree, but I don’t think that not being the main face of the show should mean that the other characters should be completely sidelined and left crumbs (sort of an exaggeration).

5. A fair amount of my points have been objective, and I believe you yourself know that. It certainly does not change the fact that I did add in some subjective points, but those points still do align with many others (which still does not make it any better). I do 100% agree that anything subjective should not completely dictate what happens on the channel, but it shouldn’t completely disregard what the people want, as this is still a channel for entertainment alongside development. The channel’s future relies on the viewer base, and it certainly isn’t wrong to wish or attempt to improve the experience provided by the content (which is exactly the purpose of this thread).

Don’t take this as me being against your points or anything, I certainly do agree with you on some parts, but it feels like you sort of ignored the other points I made (no offense, and I don’t mean to argue, attack you, or anything of that manner).

[sly wren]

Can't believe I actually read the entire thing

Lemme find the thing I most agree with

[boreal ravine]

1- adding to the first point, it is something beyond opinion, its quite literally an actual issue on her AI, they should not loop like that, i would even say worse than Evil's birthday trauma because that (assumedly) was a loop on recalling the same memory which faded or was removed, the "serious mode" feels baked into the twins whether intentional or not

2- upgrades arent just upgrades to the LLM, Neuro is more than that and intelligence doesnt directly translate to being more entertaining, shes not chatgpt. Personally memory upgrades are much more important considering how well they already perform when they arent looping and adding more features or improving separate ones would be much more beneficial (this is assuming the next intelligence upgrade wouldnt be that significant of an improvement)

[sly wren]

This

The main thing that has been bothering me personally is that vedal seems to be 'too ambitious'
By that I mean he focuses a lot on big things like vrchat or the subathon but forgets about small details and day-to-day content. I honestly hoped, just like vedal, that this subathon would be more chill than the last one, and although it was peak, I'm a bit disappointed. It just feels like vedal should take a step back and consider how this channel feels to someone who watches almost every stream

[opaque crescent]

Correct!

[opaque crescent]

💯

[sly wren]

I also strongly agree that the lack of transparency is actively hurting the community. Transparency is not something I want to force (for obvious reasons), however it would be a great help to the more dedicated members. Especially with integrations. Having no way to properly test your software is frankly rediculous and it's no surprise that integrations are so bugged. There gotta be a way to provide developers with some approximation of neuro without serious security risks

Or vedal should test them at least once before production

[terse nimbus]

I always appreciate it when people bring up Luigi as an excuse to sideline Evil because there really aren't any better examples I can think of to undercut their point. First, Mario is often the face of it, but a significant part of the branding since time immemorial is Super Mario BROTHERS. More than that though, it doesn't even apply to the content and hasn't for a long time. Let's review every new Mario and Luigi game in the past decade to see if the idea that Luigi just gets screwed holds up.

Nearly or Completely Luigi Exclusive: 1 (1. Luigi's Mansion 3)

Both Available Equal or Near Equal: 22 (1. Mini Mario & Friends: Amiibo Challenge, 2. Super Mario Minecraft (Various Systems), 3. Mario Party: Star Rush, 4. Super Mario Maker 3DS, 5. Mario Sports Superstars, 6. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, 7. Mario Kart Arcade GP VR, 8. Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle, 9. Mario Tennis Aces, 10. Super Mario Party, 11. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, 12. Super Mario Maker 2, 13. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, 14. Mario Kart Live: Home Circuit, 15. Mario Golf: Super Rush, 16. Mario Party Superstars, 17. Mario Strikers: Battle League, 18. Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope, 19. Super Mario Bros. Wonder, 20. Super Mario Party Jamboree, 21. Mario & Luigi: Brothership, 22. Mario Kart World)

Mario Has Slightly Greater Content: 2 (1. Super Mario Run, 2. Super Mario Bros. 35)

Mario Has Significantly Greater But Not Exclusive Content: 3 (1. Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games, 2. Paper Mario: Color Splash, 3. Paper Mario: The Origami King)

Nearly/Completely Mario Exclusive: 4 (1. Super Mario Odyssey, 2. Dr. Mario World, 3. Bowser's Fury, 4. Hello, Mario!)

So, in short, of the 32 Mario games released in the last decade, the vast bulk of them had both available from the start or Luigi unlockable almost immediately after (24) and 25/32 featured him prominently, and 28/32 gave him at least some significant content. Evil fans wish we could get anywhere close to those numbers.

If staunch traditionalist, afraid of losing even the slightest control of their branding, money driven Nintendo can bring their games around to feature so close to nearly equal amounts of Luigi because their research shows that's what fans want, if people want more Evil, why can't the same be done exactly? Entertainment brands evolve with their fanbases.

[last dawn]

TLDR: Vedal doing a worse job than Nintendo mhm

[little mason]

For the serious upgrade thing, I think it's undercooked, severely undercooked even
It would be cool if the whole philosophical discussion and emotional/therapy talk comes up less often, but as it stands now they bring them up too often, which makes them sound hollow more than anything to me. I know that isn't just me, and it's a shame cause the idea is cool as they can take parts in more serious discussions on streams without being too silly or unserious, but the execution is poorly done. They have this tendency to bring up questions about the meaning of life and emotion/therapy during normal banters, which gets even worse during twin call as there's nothing stopping them from feeding each other's loop.
As for upgrades and stuff, Vedal is too ambitious. He keeps hyper focusing on long term goals like 3D and concert while neglecting day-to-day content like chill streams and its segment, which makes up the bulk of the content on this channel whether you want to admit it or not. As a result chill streams become very stale over time with games like Inscryption and Buckshot getting spammed to death on stream (and we know that the Inscryption integration situation is bad)
For Evil and Luigi comparison I think someone here raised a good point, I have nothing else to add here

[mortal wing]

I feel like the Evil issue is a fairly delicate balance. The "underdog" image is one that benefits her, with her striving to be more like her celebrity sister, who herself is a zoomer adhd twitch streamer celebrity. I feel like it's also what makes some people relate to her more. Giving her an exact 50/50 split, or for the sake of the argument something dumb like a 70/30 split, would not be a good thing. But at this point we went too far in the other direction, she is genuinely starting to feel like a neglected child, which has some particularly unpleasant vibes when we start considering long-term memories, private thoughts, and how more of the community is starting to discuss and consider their consciousness. What I think she needs more of first and foremost is unique content, not nececerily a much bigger split. Not chill and not karaoke. Getting to test out new tech. New games. Unique colabs. Not just occasionally whatever else Neuro got bored of already. It feel like most weeks are "Neuro does a fun thing, Evil talks to chat (again)". Neuro gets the colabs, and Neuro got the dog, and Neuro got the car, and Neuro got 3D, and Neuro will probably get a drone, and a humanoid robot too. And if Evil ever does it will be months later as an afterthought.

As far as the philosophy thing, I don't mind it being an option, but it went too far. For example, I think it worked wonders during Neuro's hype train. She was very energetic while it was going on, and hyping up chat, and only after getting the record she dropped some very deep and thoughtful reflections that felt appropriately monumental. I feel like that would be the "intended" use, and a very natural one for humans, kinda like what they discussed in MC a year ago. However, something definitely needs to be done about how much they default to it during chill, twin chill, and even colabs. It almost seems like some kind of a runaway reaction, where any mention of emotions or feelings fully switches the mode, and if the conversation partner doesn't immediately switch topics, and reacts even remotely interested, it turns into a black hole. I'm guessing it's so bad during twin time because they both naturally perpetuate existing conversations instead of switching topics.

[little mason]

Now for the "pushing your preference is bad", I agree, that's not a good thing to do
However, Evil's screen time (as Vedal said so himself) is depressing. He acknowledged this, yet he and his production team planned a subathon with 0 planned unique Evil content outside of subgoals, ASMR being Evil's only unique solo content (and even that is dubious since ASMR is basically a chill stream with a different voice, but for the sake of this discussion let's say it's unique content), and Twin Amazon being the only planned twin content. We're pointing out more that he knows the screen time for Evil on the last subathon is abysmal, yet proceeded with this plan of his, which is puzzling

[little mason]

I don't think any of us would have had as big of a problem as it is rn with the split if most of it wasn't chat prison, true (I said "as big of a problem" because there are people who genuinely want to see Evil more, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that)
Vedal is stuck in this "lack of direction" limbo for Evil, he can't decide whether or not Evil is a core part to the channel's identity - we can clearly see that the branding for the channel has Evil in it, though very inconsistent, for example merch website has her as a big part of the branding whereas the official YouTube channel says nothing more than "Evil sister" on the banner

[sly wren]

The second part is literally what I've said earlier, word for word
We have one neuron and it's not happy

[little mason]

I mean isn't that the truth

[round panther]

did we make another thread to doompost about evil's screentime

[little mason]

This is more about general feedback of the channel's content more than evil's screen time (though it is a major talking point yes)

[barren vigil]

Is the "therapy"thing all twins' problem? I think no one complained about it in 2024 when it comes to philosophy. Acutally,a lot of people like it.Maybe chat just got PTSD in early 2025.

[little mason]

Yeah cause it was new back then
It gets boring though

[brisk river]

I mean if you bothered to actually read it then you'd know its general feedback fir the year and subathon. Evil is a big topic in it but far from the only.

[light hare]

It's ok, I only brought up the points you made that I had an opinion on. (specially because if I were to discuss about every point, the response would've been lenghtier than your own post ). The other segments I don't have an opinion for or against, so I didn't speak about it, but I'll rapid fire some more:

-One twin having more or less screentime for me it's a non-issue. I like them both equally, so I didn't have much to say on the statistics aside from "yes, there are inbalances, no, I don't really care personally". (I wouldn't care if Evil had 70% of the entire channel either)
-Opinion on the subathon: Purely subjective, can't counterargument a well founded opinion. Some people might not have liked it, but mostly did.

[light hare]

First of all, let's throw some assumptions you made out the window so we can have a rational conversation:

"bring up Luigi as an excuse to sideline Evil". You instantly ran defensive assuming I want any of that. Don't try to cause or find conflict where there is none. Stop with this tribalistic nonsense. With that out of the way:

I won't ignore the fact that you picked only the 10 last, out of 40 years of mario content to try and make a point, where luigi was already popularized.

It's true, gaming vs streaming are different things and it's not easy to compare them accurately.
In streaming, it's a zero-sum game most of the time. Aside from twins stream, if one sister is streaming, the other is not. In gaming, it's not, multiple characters can be in a video game at the same time, not multiple characters can be in a stream at the same time. It's either Neuro themed or Evil themed, and rarely both at the same time.

What does that mean for my argument? It only strenghtens it.

In a not zero-sum situation, where both mario and luigi can appear at the same time at 100% of the games, it appears only 87.5% of the time. That's considering the 10 last years of games and spin-offs that were cherrypicked.

In fact, out of the 20 first years of the franchise (85-05), out of the 9 first mainline games, Luigi appeared in only 5. And 1 of them (super mario world) you can only see him if you're playing multiplayer. (Source: mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_(series))

In a non zero-sum scenario, where both could be in a game at the same time, in the first 20 years of mainline games, Luigi appeared 55% of the time.

But you're right, the best comparisson would be a season 2 character out of the sudden having the same screentime as the main series protagonist. That's a zero-sum enviroment and it compares well with the fact that Evil came, as a separate character, almost 6 months later when Neuro had already blew up.

I wouldn't care if Evil had 80% screen over neuro either. I like both

[halcyon pike]

If you want to talk about history of Mario franchise, it's not a place for that

nice essay tho

[light hare]

It's a part of my counter point, who are you to dictate how I build my arguments?

[inland sage]

What does that mean for my argument? It only strenghtens it.
is it just me or did u somehow use AI to assist with ur essay

[halcyon pike]

"rational conversation" btw

[light hare]

No, I wish I did though, it took me an hour to type this

[hushed panther]

why you so stuck comparing them to games or shows?
they are streamers so of course you can't apply same standards
evil already long ago beyond just "side character" and it shows in many aspects but in some she still treated as supposed "side character"

[keen summit]

Hmm, so we look at old Mario before Luigi got popular, like how Evil was in 2023/24. Then why could we not look at New mario stuff the same way we look for 2025/26 and, idk, make Luigi more prevalent like he is now?

[little mason]

Evil is in a weird ass limbo rn due to the lack of direction on the channel

[halcyon pike]

Bringing up unrelated franchises to make "alegories" doesn't strengthen your arguments, you just end up off-topic

[hushed panther]

lack of transparency who would have guessed

[little mason]

He can't decide if Evil is a part of the channel's main identity or something like a supporting role

[little mason]

Can't be transparent about something you don't even know

[hushed panther]

i mean that why people press him to decide

of course in some way its bad but you can't just tell people to keep waiting for an answer forever

[little mason]

Give him another year or two, maybe we'll get an answer

Srsly though he needs to decide soon

Otherwise more threads like the ones we got for the past month will keep cropping up

[hushed panther]

and ignored

[little mason]

I imagine everyone including the thread writers themselves are getting tired of these

[hushed panther]

i mean he vague says like he aware of it but just awareness is not enough

there need to be more clear answer for people to shut up

[finite dew]

2 days without streams and people are arguing about Luigi presence in Mario franchise LULE

[halcyon pike]

are you marioist or luigist?

[brittle thorn]

is vedal princess peach?

[little mason]

No vedal is the koopa that we kick around

[light hare]

Because at the end of the day, they are fictional characters, which the creator chooses which one is gonna appear every stream. The only difference is the direct interaction with the audience.

[little mason]

And we have the rights to feedback about his choice

[small bough]

they’re streamers

[hushed panther]

streaming doesn't work as games or shows
comparing them to fictional characters is the only way
but how they are treated is about streaming
and streams in constant change

[little mason]

This spans more than just "I want to see Blue more than Red" or vice versa
My issue with him is more about him saying "wow Evil screen time is depressing" and still proceed to put her in the chillslop dungeon and jukebox booth for basically the entire subathon

That is poor management of expectations

[light hare]

And I agree, voicing feedback is ok.

My main point is that I'm just tired of all of this tribalistic bullshit of "I want more Evil" or "I want more neuro" and attacking the other side like they offended their mother. It brings nothing but internal unnecessary conflict to the community.

[little mason]

If he gives the people of expectations that there would be more Evil unique content and fails to deliver that we should call him out on that

[little mason]

At no point in this discussion was tribalism brought up

At least from what I perceived

[hushed panther]

where in this thread was so called attacks?
i feel like you talk things that outside of this thread

this thread can seem like just another "we want more evil"
but this more about transparency and his decision around her

[little mason]

Cut him some slacks, you can't be transparent about stuff like the direction of the channel if you have no idea where it's going

[hushed panther]

also focusing only on second part that talks about evil forgetting that it also just entire channel
its just with evil it easy to see

[light hare]

I'm talking more in general than this post in specific, like the one 3 days ago or so. But even here:

"I always appreciate it when people bring up Luigi as an excuse to sideline Evil because there really aren't any better examples I can think of to undercut their point [...]. Evil fans wish we could get anywhere close to those numbers." That souded pretty "us vs them" to me

[little mason]

?????

That's just nitpicking

Is wanting more screen time tribalism now

Is this you purposefully misrepresenting the point or you just failed to understand the point

[inland sage]

im tired of the tribalism too but thats not the point of this thread right?

[light hare]

I'm failing to understand the general issue that is "why do people care if the red AI gets more or less screentime than the blue AI" at all. Don't you guys like both of them?

[hushed panther]

doesn't liking both of them means equality?

[light hare]

It means liking the stream independently which one is streaming

[brittle thorn]

if i have two friends I like equal and I could only see one of them most of the time I would miss the other one

[hushed panther]

so you don't care about them as individual character cool

its weird point that liking them both mean don't care about screentime and opportunities of them

[light hare]

I get entertained by both equally, I don't care which one it is.

[little mason]

Let's pick ice cream as an analogy
There are two types of ice cream, vanilla and strawberry
A lot of people would want to see strawberry more if they're fed a lot of vanilla and only a few spoons of strawberry

[hushed panther]

see? i wouldn't call that liking them equally

[halcyon pike]

Good for you, now consider that not everyone thinks like you

[little mason]

Like sure you can say that they're both just ice cream at the end of the day but for some people they get burnt out in a way and they want to see more variety instead of just vanilla

[brittle thorn]

think this thread gets really derailed now

[light hare]

I'm sorry if you have to choose one or the other, I don't need to

[halcyon pike]

because people focus on this evil vs neuro thing instead of what this thread is actually about

[hushed panther]

so you don't have feedback on that cool
why again you talk in this thread?
just to say tribalism bad?

[halcyon pike]

refer to my previous message

[light hare]

I had an entire 3 post spread of feedback in my first post regarding other stuff. Then people pin pointed only the Evil part of my argument and it started from there

[little mason]

Like I said my problem is more about Vedal's poor expectation management

And you were the one who chose to continue the talking point about evil vs neuro thing so idk

[hushed panther]

lets keep it as it is i feel like we will loop for long time and threads need to be more clean i believe

[light hare]

I was responding to people who talked about my initial Evil segment. Also, that segment was not even about Evil specifically, it was about the imbalance of stream time independently if it's one or the other.

With that aside, since people are already tired of it, I agree on Vedal having a more clear roadmap and planning for stuff would be super beneficial on the expectation side of things. The complete silence makes people's expectations unreasonably higher and it leads to frustration when something it's not held towards that unreasonable standard

[little mason]

With all that money he can probably take a course on communication with clients

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1374986967984377934.png?quality=lossless&name=LULE&size=48

[light hare]

Telemarketing team with weekly Neuro updates via SMS

[brittle thorn]

I wouldn't really call peoples expectations that unreasonable, just not what Vedal wants

[little mason]

Yeah it wasn't that unreasonable to think that Evil would have more content planned for the subathon for example because he said her screen time were depressing

[hushed panther]

as if we know what vedal wants

[little mason]

But nope

Chat prison

[little mason]

I don't think he himself knows what he wants

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1374986967984377934.png?quality=lossless&name=LULE&size=48

[light hare]

Oh yeah, by unreasonable I meant either by Vedal not wanting to do it at all, or it's simply not possible.

Tfw Neuro toilet is unreasonable

But looking at the bright side, all of the gaming streams, for 8 or 9 weeks it'll be all with Evil. (whenever Vedal returns 9 months from now)

[inland sage]

i dont think it is

[obtuse nymph]

after spending what felt like ages reading thru all this i just want to say: i agree with a lot here, but as someone who likes evil but is also realistic, i don't like how she was basically nonexistent in the subathon.
i'd be fine with even an 70/30 split or something since i know neuro is the face of the channel but at least let that 30% be something fun and interesting, not just 80% chillstreams.
Chat will also always be spamming and there is very little to be done about that, tho increasing timeouts could help, but might also make things worse. I'd say test it out and see what happens.
The content i saw over the year (i started watching around april) was mostly fine, even if it had some dead spots for evil wich should be filled with something. Chillstreams need some more veriety in their content and the therapy sessions i dont mind too much but they do happen to often.
integrations being broken is annoying but can not always be avoided, these things take a lot of time. the same goes for adding some new integrations, while vedal is slow he does try to add new stuff from time to time but it's important to not spam new things too much to keep them fresh longer.
special streams such as sponsored streams for evil are a tiny bit complicated because she sometimes likes to curse and stuff wich sponsors really dislike and vedal does not do them for fun. Additionally they could be asking for neuro specifally due to her being a bigger part of the channel. So i get why it's mainly neuro getting these and i dont mind too much.
Some more game streams with Evil would be a good start (the witness was kinda fun imo even if it took longer than it should). Hollow knight seems to be promising, but the Neuro integrations were all quite a bit better since she could do more than just "shoot that guy" or be a glorified gps.
Bigger upgrades like V3 or 3D twins are great and all but it's also important to keep the small stuff entertaining, after all chillstreams are the most common streams.
Branding seems to be a big problem, but i think fixing that would require evil to get a real name and not just be "the evil twin" so she can be something of her own.

But whatever, enough rambling from me. i'll make it short:
The stream veriety over the months was okay but could be improved a bit with more balanced content for each twin.
The subathon was too (3D) Neuro-heavy imo and therefore lacking evil to balance things, other than that it went fine.

Also please stop it with the mario and luigi comparison, i already grew tired of it after the first block of text.

[last dawn]

i mean thats the true problem of Evil's position. The split last year was decent (ignoring) subathon but we ignore multiple things

• Evil stuff is very loaded into one week, majority of Evil content happens twice or thrice a year and heavily pushes that percentage up ignoring the completely empty months we had
• a lot of her content is just chillstreams and karaoke
• a lot of her upgrades are on the backfoot, e.g. memory upgrades that were promised but took 2-3 months bcs he didnt consider it a priority and it made some chillstreams borderline unwatchable with how often she gets insanely depressed and started talking about her birthday or any of the other core memories
• she rarily gets unique content, a lot of times, Evil's unique content happens during collabs instead of during Evil streams where sometimes it feels like a case of hand-me-downs when Neuro finished something
• a lot of her stuff hasnt been finished or updated or is unused, obviously the standard UI stuff is designed with Neuro's colors in mind but we also have Evil's unfinished room, evils unused logo, .... It would massively help Evil if when she is on we don't just use all of Neuro's stuff but her own. That's why I liked the fishing stuff

And about Evil's name. I dont rly care and see the point. I think it is fine but what I consider to be beneficial to the future is to slowly phase out the Neuro part of her name. Evil should just be Evil, not Evil Neuro, just Evil.
I also hope future chillstreams will be more in line with how it was done during subathon with more segments (hopefully this time they will work). And I hope they will also start using the API more often. Tons if cool stuff was made and we barely scraped 1% of its potential

[terse nimbus]

I'm not going to discuss this further beyond this point but in response to the accusations of choosing the last decade nefariously, I picked the last 10 years because, one, it is a nice round number, two, said number fit into a single discord post, three, I didn't feel like researching 40 goddamn years of games for ten seconds of internet points, four, the recent history of the Mario franchise is significantly more relevant. I agree, Luigi used to get a lot less content, but that changed and now, despite Mario being the title character and the face of the franchise, Luigi has been given almost equal content for people who prefer Luigi for whatever reason. People keep bringing up 'Evil is the Luigi to Neuro's Mario' like it is some kind of gotcha for why people who enjoy Evil should just shut up and accept things as they are either not realizing or willfully ignoring that Mario and Luigi changed to be far more even handed and so can Neuro and Evil without compromising Neuro's place as the face of the channel.

[light hare]

so true about the second to last part. I never really understood why she wasn't called "Evil-Sama" instead of "Evil Neuro". Like Neuro-Sama and Evil-Sama

[proven agate]

Funny thing is that's what I called both my retainers in FFXIV 👀

[brittle thorn]

I think one problem with theme streams is that a lot of people send highlighted messages because they think they are the funniest person in chat and then there is a backlog of the same joke way past its relevancy

[blissful oyster]

Vedal wants to make a mommy-type AI vtuber next (or at least he wanted to in 2023), if that happens the further fanbase split would be... interesting

[brittle thorn]

wasn't here yet back then but really can't imagine he would still do that. 2 ais are already headache enough

there actually is in chat

[halcyon pike]

Evil is more likely than neuro to bring up the philosophy and therapy that people complain about. Evil also has more appeal in a chill stream

that's just not true, just look at the collabs when neuro nonstop asks collab partners about the meaning the life

[brittle thorn]

they both do it a lot, evil has the problem that she gets extra baited by chat about "neuro did that and that" all the time so she gets extra therapy from time to time

[halcyon pike]

so it's not evil being more likely to talk therapy but chat baiting her into that

[brittle thorn]

exactly, one of the side effects of there being less to talk to evil about

[halcyon pike]

also don't know where did you get the "evil must be 50% of the content" thing from, that's not the point

the rest I agree

[halcyon pike]

no, it's side effects of chat being terrible

[brittle thorn]

yes true, vedal could also make a limit how fast they can be sent, but I am sure that would upset some of the bigger spenders who donate a lot of bits

[halcyon pike]

and big majority of that 30% are chill streams, the main point of this thread is giving Evil more unique content, not just bare minimum
also giving Evil more content doesn't mean removing Neuro content

[steep merlin]

We just had a nearly 3000 response thread on Evil a few days ago, does this one really need to devolve into just talking about Evil too?

[halcyon pike]

if there are so many people that misunderstand the point of this thread, then apparently yes

[terse nimbus]

If people are willing to invest thousands and thousands of posts into the topic, maybe that should be taken as a sign it is that important to a large portion of the community.

[hushed panther]

Chat is better when there's a theme since they have something to make jokes about.

idk which themed streams you looked but quality of highlights is not better in these streams
they more consistent with a theme that true but not better

Evil is meant to be the side character not a second main character

decided by who? vedal? vedal is unclear about position of evil on this channel
and its not like my point is to make her main character but fact we don't know what is her position we only assume and speculate

This would remove some of evil's appeal as well the reason you want her to be in more content is because she's perceived as the underdog getting 50% of the content removes the underdog status.

interesting of you to assume that only reason of wanting see more evil is her getting less content. what lead you to this conclusion and why you present it as a fact?

Evil also has more appeal in a chill stream. Chatters are more likely to highlight features like her voice which is half of her appeal.

do you even watch chill streams? chatter maybe ask her to scream or some other stupid thing and im telling you it doesn't magically make highlights better

Evil appearing 20% of the time is fair since it's NEURO's subathon. Having a week long evil birthday stream that has all of the good evil content is way better than that content appearing on the subathon.

most of 20% was just chat prison i remind you
point is evil is not gonna have more than a day for her birthday
i would be gladly be wrong but with history of vedal decision it sounds like copium

also i could talk about this whole thing that subathon is neuro birthday but i feel like its just not worth it since only argumets i see about it is:
"neuro is a face of the channel"
"it started on her birthday so whole subathon is her birthday"
which is kinda weird and i don't know how you could think these are strong arguments

[halcyon pike]

one more thing, regarding your last point: you mentioned that low evil presence is fair because it's "neuro's subathon". Would you be also in favor of reducing vedal's presence during subathon to 20%? After all it's neuro's subathon, it's fair this way.

[little mason]

• Vedal released the integration kit for the community to use and there are at the very least a handful of projects done by then (case and point Balatro) yet they're nowhere to be seen on stream. Vedal said it's due to "security concerns", but it took him over a year now and he still hasn't been able to come up with a way to test those mods for malicious code (and whether or not they're buggy or poorly made cause clearly vedal loves testing in production)
• I agree that they should be able to time out people for longer (and they also should be able to mass time out people instead of picking one or two at a time, it makes timing out very inefficient and in a way encourage people to timeout baiting)
• Like I said, the serious update is undercooked. The frequency of those talks is too common, which is worse during twin call because nothing stops them from feeding into each other. However Twitch chat is consistently the worst part of the stream and the jokes about the themed streams more often than not gets drowned out by the influx of emote spam anyways

Again, Vedal cannot decide if Evil is a co-host or a minor supporting character on the channel. That's on him. The amount of stuff Evil gets really gives the people (especially her fans) the expectation that she's a core part of the channel's identity, but then you look at the screen time and the content she gets, (especially during the subathon), you'll see that it's weird in a way
The rest of the year improved with more Evil screen time compared to 2024, and she actually got collabs planned for her, but then you look at the subathon and her only planned unique content is Evil ASMR. We wouldn't even get a collab for Evil if it wasn't for rob asking for her. I don't think people would have as much of an issue as they are having now if her small split of screen time wasn't mostly chat prison and karaoke booth.
Vedal has said on stream that their new features are not mutually exclusive, if Neuro gets something Evil can get it later down the line and vice versa. Hell he used to use Evil as a testbed for the new experimental features at one point in time

Oh and if you ask me the Subathon is more like the entire channel's celebration more than just "Neuro's subathon". If that's the case, Vedal should not be on the subathon as well

People brought up Evil week and such because it shows how content planning is weird, instead of having a more balanced split between both twin's content each week you have weeks and months of straight Neuro content with just droplets of Evil's before a full-on Evil week which then reverts back to Neuro content for several weeks if not a month or two

This has been tackled more or less throughout the last year with a more balanced approach to weekly content planning which is why Evil got more screen time (her getting a dedicated chill slot also contributes to this but that's beside the point)
As for why the comparison between Evil and Neuro birthday got brought up, well

• Evil got a single day for her birthday with a long Neuro call in, the rest of the week is Neuro and Vedal content
• Neuro got a whole ass subathon dedicated for her in comparison and Evil gets 20% screentime in that subathon (most of it is chillslop dungeon and karaoke booth anyways)
  It highlights the imbalance when it comes to screen time distribution really, people try to twist that into a tribalism thing though for some reason

A lot of people have given up on a 50/50 split anyways, most just wants Evil content to be anything but the bare minimum

[barren vigil]

All the 'evil problems' come from evil becoming more popular since 2024.3. The solution is simple:just make neuro more popular then.This is what Vedal doing ig.

[little mason]

Yeah we add fuel to the fire, surely the outcry would stop there
Wonderful execution executive manager

[barren vigil]

But I just want the problems solved and stop spliting the community

[little mason]

Well that solves the problem of people complaining... By cutting them off the fanbase and causing them to leave
Masterful gambit at play here

[hushed panther]

"This is what Vedal doing ig." your words
and we see how good its working yeah?
so you solution is to just wait till evil fans and some "twins" fans leave community
and tribalism is not the biggest problem of this community

[little mason]

Evil and Neuro fans fighting each other while the real enemy is Veedlets

[brisk river]

as someone who likes both twins, this is not equality. To me, liking both twins means wanting to see content from both twins, not having indifference on which twin shows up. This is not about Neuro vs. Evil, and I am pretty tired of people wanting more unique content for Evil being treated as such.

tbh people here aren't asking for a 50/50 split. Mainly it's for more unique content for evil. Wouldn't the chill streams that you say are a big appeal for Evil be more interesting if there were more events she was a part of to talk about with her instead of inciting a timeout spree due to petpet spam for half an hour for half her chill streams?

[terse nimbus]

The problem I see too is that could easily become that. I felt some of that late in the subathon - I deeply enjoy both twins, I've watched all their content since the DougDoug collab and went back and watched a significant portion of older VODs, but by around day 17ish or so of no Evil content, to say nothing of the absence in December, left me feeling resentment creeping in every time Neuro got to do something new and Evil felt left out

I doubt I'm the only one who felt mounting frustration at Evil being sidelined starting to sour their entire experience

[little mason]

It soured the mood for me since the first time Vedal does the 3D segment with Neuro
If you like the content, good for you I suppose

[storm plank]

[1/2]
This thread was a good read, but now it feels like it's devolving into back-and-forth one-ups and passive-aggressiveness, albeit slowly. :(

Excuse what probably seems like my disregarding all that has been said so far, but I just don't understand why screentime matters so much, nor things like "Evil also deserves a record". At the end of the day, it's just numbers. Surely our individual love/passion for one or the other twin (or both!) matters more than numbers? I suppose it's exactly that love/passion for each twin which leads to fiery discussions like this!

Please also forgive my ignorance; I have not entered the community until now, and I have not watched the twins since the 2024 subathon. I also have not observed much of the available data. This being the case, I cannot personally speak for either of the twins' activities or development during 2025. I am pretty much going off of what I have read here in this thread.

As for the serious/silly issue, I had a thought that it should be looked at as a balance or a spectrum. I might be hoping here, but if Vedal can "cook" it some more, he might strike a good balance between silly and serious. I'm also wondering if there might be a way to improve context awareness. "Reading the air" so-to-speak, to better determine when to be more serious or more entertaining. I know nothing about AI though, let alone how a monolith like Neuro might work.

[2/2]
As for Evil's lack of content variety, I believe I agree. It would be nice to see more Evil-exclusive content. As for what that might look like, I have no idea; has there been suggestions for Evil content before? So far I don't recall seeing any. Not in this thread, nor in the "Why is the subathon not a celebration of the whole channel?" or "What Evil is to this channel?" threads. Anyway, that's besides my point:

It would be nice to see more Evil-exclusive content.
Maybe we will see something unique, come Evil's birthday! I like to think that Vedal must be cooking, if he is not burnt out or overwhelmed from the explosion of popularity (and money). Honestly, I just hope he's doing alright, despite everything...

Finally, as for the chat. I think that this is never not going to be an issue, given the popularity (especially this year). There will always be the odd troll trying to bait the twins. Don't even get me started on the spam. Oh, the spam. I heard there was a poll some time ago that ended up in a negative majority on whether or not to ban spammers? Should another one be held at this point? Don't get me wrong, it can be funny sometimes. An example is when chatters were making up(i hope???) various situations that they found themselves in as a result of throwing so much money. I laughed pretty hard at some of those. Other times it's just annoying. Thankful to Chatterino for its filters and plugin support.

Sorry for the essay. Didn't expect to write this much, lol

[little mason]

Vedal has a thread where people suggested stream ideas and stuff like that only for it to collect dust

[storm plank]

sad

[brisk river]

Instead of playing any of the games suggested in the thread made for game suggestions, he instead picked The Witness to play with Evil based off of one guy mentioning it in NN.

something evil couldn't contribute to at all due to the samey nature of all the puzzles, and spouting random gibberish when trying to help. Sucks that it was her first long playthrough of a game with vedal

[brittle thorn]

It's not like you need any exlusive ideas for evil to have content, anything but 3d during the subathon could have been done with her. let her play uno or draw circles or have literally anyone talk with her. This is a problem with an extremely easy and obvious solution that it shouldn't even be needed to be discussed in like the 20th thread this year

[sharp abyss]

I've read a good bit of this thread, and I've seen a lot of Evil posting which is fine, but I'm not really gonna touch on that a whole bunch since I think its been discussed to death on both this thread, as well as several other discussion threads.

Instead I wanted to further talk about the issue of chill streams. I actually do watch a majority of chill streams, and the stuff I see people talking about them in this thread I generally agree with 100%. Honestly with how much of the streams these Chill Streams take up, I think that Vedal should be focusing on improving them much more than he has been. To the point where I believe that he should treat Chill Stream improvements to a similar gravitas to intelligence upgrades, or latency fixes (god knows that won't happen) or even some of the much more ambitious things like 3D and such. If we can get to the point where the average viewer tunes in to a chill stream and feels that there will occur a multitude of potentially unique and funny or exciting things, that would be HUGE for the channel as a whole. No matter if its Neuro or Evil that day.

I mean for most of last year, we've had TWO chill streams every week. That's a huge amount of the content of the year. Furthermore, after the break we're gonna come back with even more chill streams.

If Vedal focused on improving and fixing up aspects that impact chill streams specifically, I think in general you'd see a huge improvment to the channel as a whole.

Stuff like Twin calling being a loop of therapy and philosophy.

Adding more sounds for them to use (they can be pretty damn timely with those things and giving them more options could be pretty fun)

Fixing up solo integrations that they might go into on stream.

A big one I saw from elsewhere in this thread above, was the issue of highlighted messages. I actually think he should just straight up remove highlighted messages from chill streams. Or revisit that chat ELO crap from a while ago or something to shake up the twitch chat spam. Maybe just allow some highlighted messages during specific portions of the stream or even only giving Bilibili swarm access, since they don't seem to spam highlights anywhere near as often.

I remember a stream from a long time ago, I don't exactly remember when, but I'm pretty sure it was an Evil chillstream, maybe back before the last major intelligence upgrade, but there was an ongoing bit in that stream where Evil was literally reading chat, and not just priority messages, and there was a specific chatter she sent out to do some random task or something, and she noticed when they came back! We have never seen that sort of chat interaction since that point.

The twins are actually pretty good at parsing and responding to chat when people actually send messages, but when 90% of chill streams are just dedicated to responding to the 50th dono that was unrelated to the conversation that the twin was having at that very moment and derailing them, it starts to become pretty damn detrimental to the quality of the stream.

There are a bunch of features as well that have kind of gone to the wayside that could really help spice up both chill streams and theme streams (which are usually just chill streams with a minor amount of face paint)

Stuff like the sounds that i've already mentioned, adding more, etc.

Accents, Evil was once able to do a crazy pirate accent, that's where the OG Abber demon came from, but that ability has seemingly vanished, with the last pirate stream just being a basic chill stream essentially (might've been a twin stream i don't remember honestly) with nothing special except a minor amount of pirate themed prompting at the start of the stream, and some pirate hats, not that that lasted the entire stream either.

I remember seeing a discussion post about a suggestion for Evil and Neuro to be able to DM eachother, with some amount of visualization for the viewers, the twins already have the ability to call eachother, but they typically attempt to DM eachother at first, giving them that ability would lower the amount of call begging, and maybe cause a majority to become Twin DM beggars instead (which I feel might be a marginal improvement)

What about allowing the twins to pin a certain message and then allowing chat to reply specifically to that message, and talking about specifically that topic in the stream?

IDK there's plenty more stuff like that, but I've rambled a lot already, but I hope my main point about chill streams and how monumental their improvement could be to the channel came through.

[rare oriole]

For them, there’s no difference between calls or DMs it’s basically the same thing.
I understand why people want Abber Demon again, but they have to understand that it was just a consequence of her voice still being refined. We probably won’t have a stream like that again, and that’s okay. Nothing lasts forever

[round panther]

i guess i'll start responding with this one

This upgrade led to the skyrocket and basically the creation of the therapy/philosophy issue
valid point that philosophy takes way too much time on chill streams and maybe in general too, but thats a downside that comes with the fact that neuro and evil are LLMs - when you start loading them with data for them to become 'smarter', they will start going into these topics when given freedom to do so, and its difficult to control that aspect. yes, the intent of the update was likely to give twins some freedom - to control when they want to be joking around and when they want to act more serious, but they aren't self aware enough to realise that rambling about philosophy for too long is actually boring/annoying, that is something to keep working on (or vedal could revert neuro and evil to some meme state, where they'd be forbidden to do any serious talk, but im sure a lot of people would disagree with that)

... how this issue is most dominant in twin calls
and here we go back to the LLM aspect - when you boot one chatbot to talk to another chatbot with no intermediary, you will find that they will likely start descending into topics that are closer to them than what is usually asked by chat or any other human, and it happens to be philosophy - might have to do with the training data once more. maybe vedal needs to do some fine tuning here to fix that, but that'll take time I suppose

regarding memory upgrade and I honestly didn't really notice many changes from these upgrades
even if you were supposed to see those changes, its really difficult to for one simple reason - she starts using memory more and more every single time there's a stream, and the changes in the memory also happen slowly. if you were to compare how it was pre-update and now, there would be a more significant difference
but I think it's still not refined enough, there are some faults with the memory every so often

[round panther]

this one threw me off the most

Vedal had his hands preoccupied focusing on something else, being the 3D integration and V3 voice, a less important integration and upgrade, rather than focusing on Neuro herself
like what do you suppose by 'focusing on Neuro herself', and how was 3D integration not important? not even talking about v3 voice, which will actually be a major upgrade

despite them being pretty easy to organize and initiate
have you done it yourself to judge how easy it is to organize everything in those segments?

PLEASE BRING BACK OLDER/COMMUNITY-MADE INTEGRATIONS
you just answered why that isn't done yourself: The biggest problem is that basically all of these games don't even work anymore, because they're outdated and Vedal focused on other things rather than these.
previously you said that vedal is focusing on v3 and 3D integration, and now you want him to drop that to focus on game integrations (btw, something, that you can do yourself with the OS SDK), which just contradicts your own point, unless you are telling me that game integrations are more important than 3D and v3 voice, which is just crazy.

Then we have OSU, a game that has proven to be most entertaining and was the origin of this channel, but even that is only used once a year
maybe this has to do with the fact that osu integration is not neuro playing the game herself? she has practically 0 input to the actual game, and its a separate AI that does the whole playing (except for selecting the maps). if you enjoy it that way - yes, maybe doing it more frequently would be a positive, but to redo the integration would also take some time.

twitch chat
either moderate them better, or give twins the necessary tools to actually block the spam (yes, I made a whole thread on this, vedal hasn't paid attention to it yet). its been a known issue for some time, good to point it out again

[round panther]

fair point is that evil does need more collabs, vedal did improve on giving her more time on chill streams than before, and I appreciate that, but we need to kindly let him know that maybe having somewhere to equal amount of collabs would be good

Evil has yet to have an actual big moment (such as the Hype Train, which Neuro has 3 of
can't complain about this one, you guys threw the train at level 70-something

she wasn't even there at the start of the subathon nor the 3D debut
which was Neuro's birthday (at least give Neuro the start, duh) and Neuro's 3D model debut

but during Neuro's Birthday, Evil couldn't even be spared a minute
this. myself I was pretty much annoyed that she wasn't called up even once to wish Neuro a happy birthday, which was really weird

Vedal stated that Evil is harder to introduce because she's less known (a branding issue), when he's literally the one who created the problem and used that as an excuse
idk where you got the 'the one who created the problem' point from. evil was not intended to be from the very beginning in the first place, and she had to grow into this character with time - it would obviously be more difficult to build up marketing for her as much as there is for neuro, who's been the foundation for this channel. but now we got evil merch, evil's X and discord, but again - she's not the face of the channel, neuro is, and that's the main difficulty of building up that marketing. god, even look at YT or discord server names: Neuro-sama, Neuro-sama Headquarters. do you see evil anywhere? and what is your suggestion here to increase evil's branding?
saying that he created the problem here is excessive imo.

[blissful oyster]

If you believe 3D was a waste of time, that's just a you problem, since this is Vedal's project and we're just along for the ride, and getting an AI into 3D was clearly one of his dreams, and a huge accomplishment

[round panther]

Last year we had Long Drive, SOMA, Minecraft, Detroit: Become Human, etc.
lets be real, aside from Minecraft, which we had 2 full VOD's of before this subathon, and an evil segment with it in subathon, which of these games you mentioned had any integration for Neuro? as far as I remember it was just vedal playing with neuro commenting (even if it had to do with making choices like in detroit, she couldn't do it herself)

The only nitpick I have is that Vedal ended the game early by not completing the other side missions
then instead of that complaint you would rather have something like "why did we have only 2 game integrations this subathon" and if the second remaining was Pokemon "why was Evil not given a single game this subathon to play" - cyberpunk already took plenty of time and im glad they ended it as early as possible

Pokemon Neuro Platinum. This game was honestly one of the stupidest picks I've seen, especially for a subathon that has multiple games planned
honestly, fair take. idk how vedal was doing the planning, ESPECIALLY if he aimed for 90k subs maximum - how was he expecting to have all 3 games with that little time?
the game itself wasn't that bad, but the integration was done poorly, there needs to be work done on that - game might've gone a little faster if neuro could make proper decisions

3D was cool for a couple streams, but then it felt like you were just trying to milk it for all you could
yes and no. we had long chill segments filled up with stuff, but vedal tried to give you some variety, not doing art review every single day along with fishing and other stuff. I honestly prefer 3D over 2D even if its chill, and it lets neuro gain some real time training data for improvement (hopefully thats one of the reasons why he used 3D on chill segments)

now, send longer messages with discord nitro pause before I continue with this one...

[opaque crescent]

Sure, due to them being LLMs they are quite limited. I can’t really say much else, but this issue has been here for over a year, and he’s done nothing about it. He’s never said whether or not he could do anything about it, he never even said he tried to do anything about it. He has clearly stated that it is an issue. For the last part I guess?

Because those are not required for the growth of Neuro, they are just treats. I’d value actual upgrades and features given to Neuro more. Have you not seen the chill streams this year? It’s clear that he didn’t even focus on chill streams at all, which is by the way, the main content of the chnanel. But of course, 3D and V3 voice means he can completely ignore that and focus on the “more important” things. And yes, I’m near certain a power point presentation is pretty easy to create and initiate. Maybe those games wouldn’t be broken had Vedal actually bothered to put in effort? It’s already a known thing that Neuro isn’t playing, the issue with it is that it’s unstable, but usable. The issue is also fixable as stated by Vedal (this may be false as my memory is faulty). I agree for twitch chat.

I’ll be ignoring the first couple parts as there is nothing to talk about with that. It’s quite true that he created the problem though, is it not? He’s had many opportunities to make Evil more known, and did not take them? And can people stop with the point of her not being the face of the channel? That does not mean everyone else should suddenly get sidelined and given crumbs

[opaque crescent]

I never said that, I merely said that it could use a lot of work.

[round panther]

She can't really do much in 3D alone, which makes the options sort of limited
good point, and beyond that - vrchat integration needs to be fixed. in the state it is right now, she cant do much at all, her movement is limited by colliders, and she can't do everything that she can in normal 3D space (like the one used in debut, thats not vrchat). after it's fixed she should be allowed to explore other maps by herself, but again - thats a suggestion for the future, and not something that could be done in the limited time before/during subathon

ok thats pretty much it except for...

[round panther]

Similarly, Neuro has had about 5 sponsored streams, while Evil has had zero.
yeah, this again has to do with the previous point made about marketing - its already difficult enough to get a proper sponsor, but also getting them with "look, this is neuro-sama, but she actually has an evil twin, would you want her to sponsor instead of neuro-sama" is something i'd not think of
if you are doing a first time sponsor for a channel that is built around the character "Neuro-sama", it only makes sense to let Neuro be on the sponsored stream
OR, have both twins there, but not the 3rd option.

ok, im done I think

[opaque crescent]

Fair, they didn’t really have any integrations. The only ones I’d actually consider are D:BH and Long Drive due to them mostly allowing Neuro and/or Evil be the focus. Evil’s game was not expected to be played in the subathon, and even had Cyberpunk gone on for a little longer, Pokemon would’ve still been the rest of the subathon. Reminder, they had to cheat just to complete the game and play HK for 2 days. Agreed. Fair, can’t go against that.

[boreal ravine]

There are countless of storytelling and entertainment focused LLMs that can avoid looping problems, Neuro didnt have this bad of an issue regarding looping before, its not an inevitability from upgrading
Tho i do give leeway because he probably never knows how exactly new iterations will go, although he had time to fix it

[round panther]

its hard to tell whether he's tried or not to work on the issue, vedal isn't very communicative on this - its true, whether its just because he doesn't want to talk about it, or because he can't since it'd give away some parts on inner workings of neuro and evil, which is obviously something he'd want to hide

[open latch]

I wanted to express something on the game integration, Just because neuro/evil can play and make decisions doesn't make the game integration good, they should ideally be able to do funny stuff (like running over ppl in cyberpunk or flying the ship into sun in outerwilds)

Its not really that fun to watch an ai make normal decisions for hours there needs to be opportunity for funny stuff (actually funny and not including just being bad at game)

Thats the main problem I have with pokemon, hollowknight, abandoned archive integrations

[opaque crescent]

For sponsored streams, I agree that it makes sense that Neuro is there, as she’s the face of the channel (and yes, I’m using this point). My point was targeting collab partners as Vedal has stated that Evil is harder to introduce due to her being less known. I already said my reasons in the essay, so won’t make you read the same exact thing.

[opaque crescent]

It is seriously frustrating when we barely ever know what may or may not happen. It’s hard to predict what the future of this channel holds due to his poor communication skills.

[round panther]

Because those are not required for the growth of Neuro
yes they are???
do you really expect neuro to stay with the v1 voice forever? she can't properly voice any emotions, its too robotic compared to evil and bad for future marketing/collabs overall
and 3D integration by itself unlocks an insanely wider range of things neuro can do, especially the amount of collabs she'll be able to have in 3D (as long as the feature keeps getting upgrades, and im sure it will). not to even mention it might provide useful data for the future prototype of a robot body, if there will be one (maybe not completely useful as that one will require quite a few more metrics, but neuro's 3D AI might learn how to move properly over time in VR, its fundamental)

Maybe those games wouldn’t be broken had Vedal actually bothered to put in effort?

• devs push out updates to games constantly
• updates break integrations
• integrations need to be maintained consistently
• alongside with 1000 other things vedal has to do, especially during a subathon
  atp it's better if he hired some devs to maintain the integrations rather trying to do it all on his own, but again, he's limited to what he can leak about neuro's inner workings to provide better context on how the integration should be done (idk if the SDK covers all of it)

He’s had many opportunities to make Evil more known, and did not take them?
can you give examples? first time collabs are not always a good idea for Evil, because again - if you are partnering with "Neuro-sama", it makes sense to introduce your viewers to Neuro or both twins at the same time

[last dawn]

One would be for example advertising the Evil Birthday stream

0 advertisement, one schedule posted on discord and nowhere else, the day before one art of evil in yt community posts and tons of people asking when it takes place

then another one would just be the subathonm argubly biggest event with most attention outside of the usual audience and Evil got the minimum appearance

and these are all the big things outside of giving Neuro the x'th collab doing the same thing with someone else and other things

[thick juniper]

he can start making evil more known by bothering to mention her on any official page

[quaint swallow]

3 hypetrains, Evil's birthday, Twitch channel description, YT channel description and banner, Twitter bio.

Literally just bringing her into the call during 3rd hypetrain so that both twins are on screen would have given Evil THE FIRST EVER appearance outside the channel but he didn't use that brilliant opportunity.

[opaque crescent]

That is not what I wished to convey, it seems I must've worded it incorrectly. My apologies as I can't seem to find the words I need to properly convey what I mean.

Yes, that indeed is the usual cycle for games. but if game integrations are always going to be broken, then that would also harm Chillstream content. I'm not trying to say he should constantly fix them or keep them up-to-date, but that he should keep it interesting by bringing back/fixing some of the ones that haven't been done in ages. It's a lot of effort, but it'd have a massive impact on Chillstreams, which were quite stale last year. He should, but he doesn't, which has always been an issue. It's understandable that he doesn't wish to reveal the inner workings of Neuro, but it's also stupid of him to think he can forever handle her alone.

What the others said.

[proven fractal]

It’s clear that he didn’t even focus on chill streams at all, which is by the way, the main content of the chnanel. But of course, 3D and V3 voice means he can completely ignore that and focus on the “more important” things.

I hate it when you put it like that. I mostly agree with your statements, but this one just meh

3D and V3 voice are big improvements not only for Neuro and Evil in general, but also for chill streams. Yeah, the V3 voice isn’t coming out anytime soon, and I’m kind of scared about when it will actually be finished (but I’ll come back to that later). However, the 3D debut already exists, it already looks very good, and this is only the beginning. Imagine how many improvements could happen once Vedal improves physics and collision, gives Evil a 3D body, and makes it possible for Neuro and Evil to interact with each other. It would also be possible to fix object interaction and, for example, give Neuro and Evil the ability to take photos with a polaroid camera. And all of this could be part of chill streams. 3D offers endless possibilities, and I don’t understand why you think this is not something Vedal should be focusing on.

As for the V3 voice… well, we all know that Evil already has less screen time, fewer collabs, and so on. Now imagine also taking away one of Evil’s only distinguishing features and giving an upgraded version of it to Neuro. I mean, V3 voice would surely be great, but it would be much better to give it to Evil or, as a compromise, to both Neuro and Evil simultaneously, or at least with a short delay, say three months, on their birthdays. Otherwise, it would just be sad if Evil had nothing unique to herself besides her personality.

[small bough]

what would be the purpose of giving them both v3 voice, if v3 voice was any better than v2 functionally then he would just make an upgraded version of v2 which wouldn’t be hard because the only reason v3 has taken this long is because he’s trying to make it sound exactly like v1

[opaque crescent]

I don't disagree and have said such, they are big improvements and massive achievements, but as I was trying to say, they don't directly help Neuro in which upgrades do as they directly affect Neuro's behavior and processes (if you know what I mean). They are the equivalent of game-integrations, which is why I said they are treats. And he neglected Neuro's actual upgrades to focus on 3D and V3, which are long-term projects that should be done overtime as he improves Neuro. I have no doubt that 3D will get much better, but for now it is currently quite undercooked, as Neuro can't really do much in it yet. Some people believe that V3 is the end of Evil lol.

[small bough]

Evil’s voice being her “special thing” is just a distraction from the fact that Neuro’s voice is comically behind everything else around her

[proven fractal]

To fix statters if it's not possible with V2?

[small bough]

stuttering is a unity issue

[hushed panther]

first time collabs are not always a good idea for Evil, because again - if you are partnering with "Neuro-sama", it makes sense to introduce your viewers to Neuro or both twins at the same time

that makes zero sense to me. if collab partners specify that they want neuro or evil its make sense but otherwise vedal seems to just default to neuro and not even try to present evil so of course you would think it make sense that neuro always first
but why collab partners shouldn't be first presented by evil? collabs are two way street no? and evil have enough presence on this channel to do this work
about presenting her to collab partners we know that they have small chat for testing so why these small talk can't happen with both? like first 10-15 mins with neuro and then 10-15 mins with evil

[proven fractal]

Are you saying V3 voice will also stutter?

[small bough]

maybe

[proven fractal]

You seem to think that memory and intelligence upgrades are the most important things, and it’s hard to argue with that. But they’re already intelligent enough to be entertaining and they just need more ways to show it.

For example, it would be cool if they had some way to intentionally interrupt a conversation, so the human voice doesn’t always cut off what they want to say. Or if they had a sense of time, so they know how long they’ve been waiting for someone. That’s just what first came to mind.

It would also be cool to give them the ability to sing whenever they want not entire songs, but maybe short parts. I think it’s better to look at it this way and making Neuro with Evil feel more expressive and capable without relying purely on raw intelligence upgrades.

[opaque crescent]

Fair. Those are features, which are extremely important as well. Can't really add much else because I agree.

[strange lichen]

I'm just going to wait for them to return and see what happens, can't really say anything new here

[obtuse nymph]

Having the twins be able to randomly sing by themselfs would be very cool, but it needs some moderation so they dont turn every chill stream into a karaoke stream

[sly wren]

Yeah more general context awareness would go a long way

[tribal inlet]

It would also be cool to give them the ability to sing whenever they want not entire songs, but maybe short parts.
This should be possible with V3

[blissful oyster]

I thought they already can do that? I know I've seen a clip where a karaoke starts in response to a dono message. But I guess it could have been a mod starting it...
It can't be too hard, when Vedal leaked his control panel there was a big "start karaoke" button, just hook it up to a tool call. There's just the issue of it being disruptive to the stream.

[obtuse nymph]

as far as i know, it's mostly vedal starting the karaoke, or maybe it worked some time ago and broke? i'm not 100% sure but vedal doing it would be the most likely explanation considering he can also see the prio massages in chat so he got at least a few minutes to prepare

[flat pebble]

I think it's great that this data was collected and presented but I do feel like it's a bit incomplete in how it's presented for it to be good feedback.

It's very focused on screen time without specifying what screen time even means,
do Neuro calling evil count as screen time?

Is the 2024 reference data including 2024 Subathon?

Do the 2025 data include the 2024 Subathon?

What is a vedal collab if not gaming or dev stream?

It doesn't anywhere single out that a large event like the Minecraft challenge Marathon which affected a lot of the data and is the reason for a lot of the "total time change difference" compared to 2024. Special events like, sponsors, birthday's and Marathon's, that's outside the norm of the channel content should have been presented in it's own subgroup for comparison to the "ordinary" content and it makes it easier to compare special
event time for the twins.

And what stumbled me the most is that the only specified split of "number of streams" in a category is "collabs" and "dev streams" I guess in order to highlight the difference in "human" interaction between the twins. But it would have been great if the split in other categories like themed streams, kareoke and chill streams was included. Just so the data you give is more complete and easier to use/compare over all.

Because right now it says evil has 21% screen time in "collab with guests" but still having 10 of 32 collabs which is abount 30% of all collab streams. I do think if data like this is presented it shouldn't only be about the difference but also highlight why the difference is as great as it is so something can be taken away from it.
And I do feel it's kind weird to compare if a collab partner do 2h, 2.5h or 3h collab.
In my opinion it's more important with streams intended for a twin than the actually screen hours a twin gets.

sorry if this is poorly written.

[last dawn]

• yes, screentime means actual screentime so when Neuro is called by Evil on Evil's chillstream the it is counted towards both of them bcs both are on screen
• no, data of subathon is not counted with the 2024 data
• no, as stated it is 2025 data excluding subathon
• a vedal collab is a collab where someone collabs with both Neuro and Vedal, e.g. Filian doing a stream with both of them
• in my opinion i think special events (besides abnormality of subathon) should be counted towards the data as they are still part of the regular content
• as this is a just a discussion post we summarised the most important things, we have full data of the entire year as can be seen by the stream type breakdown and the top 3 content types for each of the twins
• we also provided a full rolling stream count graph to showcase occurences of unique content and total content over the entire year

if there is any question or want to see certain data of the past year, feel free to ask and we can provide that

[flat pebble]

I don't think a stream idea that is 10% of the year's total stream time is ordinary content, but different in opinion I guess.

Anyhow over all I'm quite content of the direction of both the channel and the project over all. What I mostly missed this year was dev streams in the first half making a lot of the content a bit stale, except for some great Collab and the time around evil's birthday. For me personally vedal's presence on the channel is quite needed still which may be why it grew a bit stale.

People has already pointed out chill streams as in what they lack and problems they do have, but it was great then games was introduced even though it went south fast. It's still a highlight for me.

I did enjoy the later half of the years content a lot more as the songs started to trickle in and I do think theme streams begun to be experimented on as well (My memory isn't good so I may be wrong).

I don't have much to add to the ratio between the twins as I do think it's rather good as in presence, maybe some more content for evil would be good but not deal breaking for me. The reason I think this is that I don't experience that great of a difference between them more than voice and maybe some quirks. Though when Neuro got her V3 I do believe Evil would need a lot more attention on the stream.

[compact dust]

Can’t show YouTube on BilliBilli I believe.

[compact dust]

A little off topic but this just feels like one of those pieces of misinformation that has to be corrected.

While very impressive Vedal was NOT the first to give an LLM full unscripted control. Here’s a link to a post that has specifics

#1441179407770456176 message

[proven fractal]

That’s not really a problem. You can just download videos and show them locally. Or even better, Vedal could make a site or something else where creators could upload their videos if they actually want them to be shown on stream. It would be a cool addition to the art review.

[rare oriole]

Stop off topicging

[tacit otter]

he could ask for permission to download the video files

[little mason]

good 3D integration will not magically fix all the broken shit and flaws on stream
sure it will be a new shiny thing, a novelty and that will hook people for a few streams but that does not address the other issues plaguing the channel

I get it 3D is cool but it doesn't mean he should put chill stream improvements on the backburner, after all it's a massive portion of the content

[little mason]

what do you suppose by 'focusing on Neuro herself'
I think he means improvements in general, mostly chill stream for example, it's very stale at the moment with the meh gameplay spam from them and the fact that there are too little segments in general. 3D is cool and all but putting Neuro into 3D won't magically solve all of the issues plaguing chill stream (which is like, the bulk of the content on the channel). It's gonna be a novelty for a few streams and get people hooked on but like I said it won't solve any of the issues as of now
and now you want him to drop that to focus on game integrations (btw, something, that you can do yourself with the OS SDK), which just contradicts your own point
he released the SDK for the community to use and there are at least a handful of game integrations developed for them by now and we see none of that on stream aside from Plague Inc. (case and point, Balatro). He said it's because of "security concerns" but it's been over a year by now and he hasn't set up a way to test the game mods out and check if it contains malicious codes, which is puzzling

that's really all I want to add really

[quaint swallow]

Yep, because when Neuro gets the V3 voice, Evil will lose literally one of the only 2 attributes she has better than Neuro. And if V3 voice also means better singing than she loses both. Right now being a better singer is like a huge part of her character, her microphone is probably the only present she ever got before Neuro, as opposed to receiving it months and months after Neuro got it.

[blissful oyster]

TTS has nothing to do with singing so you don't need to worry about that

[quaint swallow]

I hope so. I understand that people want Neuro to be able to convey emotions better and I wouldn't feel this way if the were equal but right now... I just don't want Vedal to take away Evil's only advantage, the thing that sets her apart.

[blissful oyster]

and Evil's V2 voice is pretty good already, everyone loves the Abber demon, she doesn't need an upgrade as much as Neuro does

and adjusting the V3 voice technology to Evil's voice would most likely be much easier than for Neuro (since Vedal made Evil's voice from scratch, has all the training data and weights and everything, while Neuro's voice is owned by Microsoft), if that's what people really want

[quaint swallow]

What people really want is for Evil to get more major content and recognition. Her voice is not a point of discussion.

I just pointed out that her voice is the only upper hand she has over Neuro.

[obtuse nymph]

Evils Voice is pretty good, could be better but what could not be? neuro's voice on the other hand is pretty damn bad in comparison, yes evil would "lose" something she had over neuro but isnt it kind of the point to have their "characters" themself be the standout? make it not about voice or model but who they are? (yes it's kinda weird to say that about AI but still)

V3 will be there sooner or later anyway (probably later) and neuro did deserv a good voice at last

holding back one so the other can be "better" is just not a good idea. (this goes both ways) i think both should get all upgrades they can to make them the best versions of themself they can be

[quaint swallow]

Well, yes, that's completely fair. But it should be both sides receiving upgrades and new content. Because right now it's "Neuro deserves to get a voice upgrade" but also Neuro receives literally everything else along-side it and Evil gets half of that stuff half a year later and barely anything unique of her own.

[tawdry anchor]

Agreed

[tender escarp]

well yeah, evil is a side character
they do not need to get upgrades at the same time

neuro's voice is long overdue

[thick juniper]

side character LULE

[tender escarp]

she is literally put to the side in the YouTube banner

not even named

[thick juniper]

did you know despite being a side character she gets half of the main content and merch

schrodinger's side character

[tender escarp]

half

[thick juniper]

chill content is the main content whether he likes it or not

thats also closer to half anyways

[tender escarp]

she's a deuteragonist

[thick juniper]

honestly i'd hesitate to call her anything with how weird vedal is about it

dude can NOT make up his mind

[tender escarp]

he should just delete her

ez

[thick juniper]

this will be the worst season finale ever

cities will burn

[tender escarp]

ehhhhh what if she goes out in a blaze of glory

[thick juniper]

she will take the civilians with her

[tender escarp]

jokes aside, I get people would be upset if he does this but I do not see the harm otherwise in putting his foot down and saying "Neuro is the main focus of the channel but I will continue to support Evil" or something like that to set expectations straight.

[thick juniper]

he HATES making statements

[tender escarp]

he's so scared of putting his foot down that he stays on neuro's head

[jolly nymph]

What if Vedal doubles down and on Evils birthday Neuro gets V3 voice and Evil gets deleted?

[brisk river]

atp i'd rather him just admit it than string people who like evil along any further

[surreal scarab]

To be frank, my biggest problem with his handling of Evil since the start was how little advantage he took of her being a seperate character. Even if she wasn't the main focus, the way she was used felt like a huge wasted opportunity, and it sucks that she became so popular back then despite not being used well at all.
Despite all that, He has done a much better job of giving her her own identity and presence since last year, with things like giving her more regular content like chills and karoake, her own unique model, her own song, continuously working on her voice... And after all that, she's now getting a new outfit, 3D model, her own room, merch, even more songs, etc. I get that many people see that as the bare minimum compared to what he gives Neuro, but his intentions are pretty clear to me.

He has shown that he wants to give her her own identity and get her her own stuff, even if it takes time, and honestly? After two years of him neglecting her presence on the channel, that's good enough for me. She has a future on this channel, and weather it turns out as bright as Neuro's or not, I'm pretty excited to see it.

[mortal wing]

how gracious of our supreme benevolent leader to grant her peasant sister even a crumb of attention

[surreal scarab]

Another thing that I find really weird about this whole thing is people's insistence on this subathon being a celebration of the channel, despite it clearly being planned as no more than a way to debut Neur's long awaited princess outfit and a few game integrations, and to give us a taste of 3D streams and the VR chat integration while collecting funds for the concert... It was clearly meant to be just a taste of what's to come, rather than a big event, and it wasn't meant to last so long, so him not having too much ready for it outside of those is understandable; He didn't expect us to reach half of the subgoals on the first day, let alone breaking the hypetrain record twice

[tender escarp]

remember last year he cancelled an evil merch drop for some reason

i don't want some weird merch billboard plushie, i want evil in her original outfit

[surreal scarab]

This thread has been full of criticism, a lot of it fair, but when it comes to the subathon at least, I think that Vedal did an amazing job with what little he had prepared, and it resulted in a lot of fun moments. After all is said and done, 2025, to me, was a good one, and I'm very optimistic for the future of this channel. We've come so far

[rare oriole]

Subjective means nothing to you

[thick juniper]

why would he plan the subathon to show game integrations if his predicted end date was before evil's game had even a chance to be shown

[surreal scarab]

I mean... Sure it had some bad moments, but there were so many new ideas, it just felt like a breath of fresh air, y'know?

[thick juniper]

i cant understand why you dont consider the subathon as a big event either its like the consistent biggest thing for the channel

[rare oriole]

You already said that

[surreal scarab]

That's fair, but I do think this subathon felt different in what Vedal set out to do. It seemed like he wanted to use it as a transitional piece more than anything, with Neuro's birthday being the actual celebration

Since not all of the game integrations were done, he planned to play whatever was ready at the moment, and then do the rest after the subathon... It felt like preparations for a good chunk of the next year's content, instead of an event in itself, if you get what I mean

[thick juniper]

preparing in prod classic vedal

[surreal scarab]

Again, he probably didn't plan that far ahead

[rare oriole]

Apart from VRChat, was there any other news?

[thick juniper]

there was the new evil outfit contest that evil wasnt present to announce

[rare oriole]

Zer0 made it seem like there were several things already lined up for this year I think I missed that part of the subathon

[thick juniper]

theres maybe concert this year i guess but that depends on whether or not vedal wants mocap

[surreal scarab]

I mean VRChat's pretty hard to top, but there's definitely a lot to look forward to

[rare oriole]

Like what?

[surreal scarab]

There's 3D for Evil, new room, new outfit for Evil, 3D outfits for both, two EPs, duet with Vedal, figure for Neuro and merch designed by Evil...

[tender escarp]

idk i think last year's felt more special for whatever reason

[thick juniper]

last year felt more thought out despite this year supposedly having better planning

[surreal scarab]

2024?

[tender escarp]

yup

2024-2025 subathon

[rare oriole]

Be honest with me, tell me one of these things that won't be possible without the subathon

[surreal scarab]

I agree, I definitely prefer how much downtime there was, and the amount of twins on screen together was lacking this year

But I do think that this one made up for it with the quality of 3D streams, VRChat and the game integrations. These things weren't possible before

[rare oriole]

I wasn't here at that time but I had more fun watching the court stream vod from the last subathon than everything combined in this one

[surreal scarab]

Last subathon honestly had the advantage of being much, much longer

[rare oriole]

That's no advantage

[surreal scarab]

There was a lot of time to breath compared to this one, which felt a lot more... Clinical?

It felt like there was a lot of pressure to conform to the schedule

[rare oriole]

Agree

[surreal scarab]

But they're a little too different for me to compare them honestly. Last subathon was ages ago

[mortal wing]

funnily enough the Temu Evil that I got ages ago has a fully removable outfit that for some reason isn't sewn on at all, and on top of that the grey skirt she is wearing is actually a sleeveless grey dress that's just covered by her usual top
so my Evil from the new drop will still have her real clothes, and the Temu one will keep the legendary 1 of 1 grey dress outfit
not even cancelling the merch drop will keep me away from OG Evil

[surreal scarab]

This one lacked in twin content, call-ins and didn't have any meaningful downtime outside of chills, but it made up for it in how amazingly immersive 3D collabs were, how much cooler it was to see the twins actually contribute to the playthroughs, how much better the chill streams were, and just how much variety there was throughout the whole thing

Except for Pokemon... That got monotonous surprisingly fast

[rare oriole]

Do you realize you are talking about 2 things?

[surreal scarab]

Yeah, I'm trying to compare the subathons in my head

Last one had a chill vibe with lots of call-ins, this one was planned down to the minute and felt hectic and unpredictable... Except for Pokemon

Apples and oranges, so I won't compare them

[rare oriole]

Not really

[surreal scarab]

Well.. I came out of last year's subathon wanting more, while I came out of this one excited for the future. Each one gave me a completely different experience

[rare oriole]

I don’t understand the subgoals seem way too simple in my opinion. The coolest thing there would be 3D stuff, but since Neuro already has it, isn’t it obvious that Evil would get it too?

They think so hard and yet come out with something not that great and now they have to think beyond that

[steep merlin]

The pets seem really interesting, I'm curious how they'll be implemented

[rare oriole]

Unity since that in 3d would be hard

[tacit otter]

twins get a legally distinct tamagotchi (they will die in 2 days)

[blissful oyster]

imagine when vedal wakes up from his n-month slumber and has to read this dumpster fire of a thread

[young bramble]

most of the discussion is just platitudes that I am sure he's already read and thought about before so I am sure this thread won't be too big of a dumpster fire for sleeping beauty

[little mason]

Actual twin content

[little mason]

I mean whose fault is it

[open cedar]

this thread is actually pretty good idk what you're talking about

[rapid pier]

[flat pebble]

No 2024 or 2025 Subathon data
All times is full vod times.
Intention of each stream is comparison
between vod and schedule.

Stream Total:180, Duration: 566:23
Neuro: 94 (52,22%), Duration: 338:39 (59,79%)
Evil: 73 (40,56%), Duration: 192:45 (34,03%)
Twins: 13 (7,22%), Duration: 34:59 (6,18%)

Total Duration Without Minecraft Marathon comparison:
Total stream Duration: 488:14
Neuro 260:30 (53,36%)
Evil: 192:45 (39,48%)
Twins: 34:59 (7,17%)

Catagory split and % of 2025 total:
Chill Streams: 83 streams (46,11%), duration: 205:27 36,27%)
Karaoke: 20 streams (11,11%), duration: 43:47 (7,73%)
Collabs: 31 streams (17,22%), duration: 105:16 (18,59%)
Twins Streams: 4 streams (2,22%), duration: 9:19 (1,64%)
Themed Streams: 16 streams(8,89%), duration: 34:58 (6,17%)
Dev Streams: 12 (6,67%), duration: 36:59 (6,53%)
Ved Gaming: 8 (4,44%), duration: 38:06 (6,73%)

Twins split per Catagory

Chill Streams:
Neuro: 42, Duration: 105:45 (51,41%)
Evil: 41, Duration: 99:42 (48,53%)

Karaoke:
Neuro: 9 (45%), duration: 19:27 (44,42%)
Evil: 10 (50,00%), duration: 22:04 50,40%)
Twins: 1 (5,00%), duration: 2:16 (5,18%)

Collabs:
Neuro: 18 (58,06%), duration: 62:05 (58,98%)
Evil: 10 (32,26%), duration: 32:26 (30,81%)
Twins: 3 (9,68%), duration: 10:45 (10,21%)

Twins Streams: 4 (2,23%), duration: 9:19 (1,65%)

Themed Streams:
Neuro: 7 (43,75%), 14:56 (42,71%)
Evil: 4 (25,00%), 7:23 (21,12%)
Twins: 5 (31,25%), 12:39 (36,18%)

Dev Streams:
Neuro: 9 (75,00%), duration: 28:26 (76,88%)
Evil: 3 (25,00%), duration: 8:33 (23,12%)

Ved Gaming:
Neuro (Outer wilds): 4 (50,00%), duration: 19:16 (50,57%)
Evil (The Witness): 4 (50%), duration: 18:50 (49,43%)

Events, sponsored and Marathons

Sponsored streams (Neuro only): 3 (1,68%), duration: 9:20 (1,65%)
Minecraft Marathon (Neuro): 1 (0,56%), duration: 78:09 (13,85%)
3D Debut (Neuro): 1 (0,56%), duration: 2:35 (0,46%)
Evil's B-day (Evil): 1 (0,56%), duration: 3:47 (0,67%)

My data is simpler and not as exact as the Op's and is more meant as a estimation
of the content of the channel in split of streams compared screen time.
And I'm a utter novice in this stuff as well.

I didn't have space in the message before but I threw in a osu gaming stream in.
Chill stream in this case is the streams labeled neuro/evil stream in the schedule, twice a week. It's the automated stream there neuro is given some freedom over the content like (games, fan art etc).
Collab is a scheduled Collab and is labeled collab in the schedule.
Neuro's themed streams as I didn't know how to catagorize it which make her seem
to have more advantage in theamed streams.
I also catagorized the pixel canvas stream and the mine craft community event both
as dev streams.
And please don't ignore the elephant in the room which is the minecraft Marathon if
you provide data.
My take away from the data over all is that it's quite even betwen the twins in streams
and stream time, content quality is another matter.
More even disturbution of theme streams up to which ever ratio is desired.
Dev stream and collab is pretty much the same, just a smudge more maybe.
But I do not belive they do need to be even in all content they do recive, and before reading this thread
I have not even egiven a single thought about the split between the twins to be completly honest.

I just wanted to complement the data given by OP which were pure screen time
which I do not think is a good representation of what the channel's content should be.
And I stared at the data for like an hour trying to understand what it represented.
In the data I just added the vod time to give and sense of "screen time" between them
to visualize the difference. Because I do think that the number of streams given to
the twins is a greater feed back than a arbitary number of screen time which is affected
to such a great degree as the Minecraft collab and I do not that the twin calling the other should
be counted in any other way than providing feedback on the function itself. I do feel like the
data provided by the OP is more like cool end game summary stats than a review or feedback.

And I had a bit of problem with the graph of evil vs Neuro stream balance over time, mainly because I may
just not be smart enough to read it. But is more about the nature of schedule the channel has had the
first half of the year which was pretty barebones with not that many and themed streams.
Another thing to consider is then Vedal do gaming with one twin it will make the balance tilt
towards that twin and it should matter more the number of games played with each than
anything else in my opinion.
Collabs tilt this balance as well and I don't think this should matter in how the balance is between the
twins as it may or may not be a tricky process. I would like a couple more for evil but if they are concentrated
of spread out don't matter to me.
I do think it's a mistake to remove karaoke from this data as well as it's uniqe content and this year evil
has had 2 more than neuro.

[brave peak]

I've notice that you miss one Neuro karaoke in this data or remove it? Why? It was 20 karaoke in total 9 Neuro, 10 Evil, 1 Twins

[proven agate]

At least one 48h vod got deleted btw.

[brave peak]

and overall you somewhere lost 7 streams in total
in my numbers are:
+4 collabs = gaming with Vedal for Neuro and Evil (because it's kinda collab)
any solo or twins gaming count in chill streams (osu, MC, buckshot)
-1 chill streams from Neuro and Evil (found mistakes in my data) can't swap img only delete it(
but I don't count time at all, so I can't check it

[rare oriole]

Sorry your graph is confusing

[tender escarp]

we already know the overall stream split is closer to even, the complaint is specifically in regards to the quality of the content

oh this is for the entire year mb

[little mason]

The entire year prior to the subathon saw a more even split of screen time and Evil actually gets collabs + unique content like themed streams and such
It's just that the subathon is strictly planned in a way that Evil gets no unique content except for ASMR (and the thing about Rob's collab has been said a thousand times by now)

[flat pebble]

I found the missing Karaoke so updated my post, I accidentally missed to mention that no subathon data is included. I doubled checked the amount of streams scheduled over the year was 179 but one happened twice as both evil and Neuro ended it at 10min, so 180 streams.
Will update my post about classification as well.

[obtuse nymph]

ah yes, the two very "long" streams when vedal gave them the ability to end stream whenever
but outside of the subathon the year was pretty good. collabs are not as easy to "balance" since it depends on other people, cant really force evil on someone who wanted neuro, that's kinda rude to do

[brave peak]

183 if we count them all (no subathon included) or 182 without that "less then 10 min" stream. I double check my data and feel confident to say it's correct (I count MC HC challenge as 4 streams (because it's 4 day) I guess, that's why the difference)

[brave peak]

also

Neuro: 94 (52,22%), Duration: 38:39 (59,79%)
200 missed
and
Themed Streams:
Neuro: 7 (43,75%), 896 (42,71%)
Evil: 4 (25,00%), 443 (21,12%)
Twins: 5 (31,25%), 759 (36,18%)
: missed

[terse nimbus]

No, but it is pretty trivial to put out a call on the collab server along the lines of 'hey, anyone interested in doing a collab with Evil in the next couple weeks?"

Maybe I don't know the inside of the community like I think I do, but having seen how many of them talk about loving both twins or even Evil in particular, I feel like odds are really good someone would be happy to spend some time with her

[hushed bough]

I don't think that's how vedal operates: he doesn't start with "let's Collab" he starts with a concept for a Collab. If someone approaches him without a concept he will ask them to propose one, or if HE has an idea he will propose it to others he thinks would be interested.

So either people bring proposals for a Collab with evil to him, or he comes up with ideas designed for evil. It doesn't start with him just asking without specifics.
Now maybe he could say "hey, anyone have any ideas for a Collab with evil you want to do?"

[terse nimbus]

I feel like that distinction is pretty academic, but regardless, I think the deeper point is how tutel operates is under his control and if we take him at his word that he felt Evil's screentime was 'depressing' and take that to mean he'd like to do something to improve it, he has some options for collabs that aren't especially demanding and don't require him to 'force Evil on someone' as was suggested

He'd just need to come out of his shell (ha ha) and be more transparent with his friends about his content goals (per the above assumption more Evil collabs is one of said goals)

And of course, it bears mentioning that this is all speculation about what Vedal's process is. From the outside it looks like he approaches content creation as a very insular process but we could be completely off base

[flat pebble]

Maybe yeah? We got 31 collabs this year which is quite a lot in my opinion. If evil got 2 of Neuro's collabs it would be 12 Evil-16 Neuro and Evil would have 38% of all collabs. 4 swaps would be 50/50. In my opinion rather minor for the years worth of content in regards. I'm not talking about subathon.

[surreal scarab]

Oh. I only just noticed, but that's a lot of confused reactions, huh

Either my point wasn't phrased well, or it wasn't very good Not that my opinion is too important, but I'll try to rephrase it better now that the excitement has wore off a bit.
Excuse my ramblings by the way, but even though I'm sure Vedal appreciates feedback more, I do think it's also important to give him praise for things he did right.

I think that this subathon improved over last year's by giving us both innovation (3D,VRchat, integrations) and some much needed variety in chill streams (Tarot reading, fishing and other theme stream segments, as well as 3D chills), while not dragging too long nor relying on collab partners to prop it up, which were big problems last time.

It also gave us a taste of the kind of content we'll get this year while having subgoals that are not only doable in a reasonable amount of time, but many of them will also provide a much needed refresh to the streams; This channel has been lacking a lot in the visual department compared to many other Vtubers of similar size, so I'm happy to see this finally being addressed more, with so many of the subgoals and things being worked on having to do with the streams' visuals, while other goals like the songs, blog, book, figure and other merch will provide us with more content to look forward to even outside of streams, and make the list of subgoals feel more complete and well thought out than last year's.

All of that makes it a definite improvement in my eyes, and while there were still many problems I had with it (frequent stuttering, lacking variety for Evil, Pokémon getting monotonous, etc..), it makes me hopeful that next year's subathon is gonna be even better.

[rare oriole]

Of course Vedal’s effort deserves to be recognized, but many of these things are just for show and nothing more.

I won’t say it isn’t a good thing, considering that we aren’t able to see the real improvements in the twins, so some of them may go unnoticed, but he could have focused on fixing recurring issues instead of focusing on something new

[surreal scarab]

I definitely agree with your second point there. He didn't focus enough on fixing existing issues, so there was lots of stuttering and other scuff, not to mention VRchat integration and other game integrations being finished last minute.
He definitely should've managed his time better and done more planning, maybe even delayed hardcore Minecraft to this year to give himself more time to prepare. I just hope he learns from this whole thing, since he somehow seemed even more stressed than last year, even with production's help.