#What makes twin yap good work

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

jade tapir
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What makes the subathon twin segments so good comes down to a basic understanding of back and forth. Neuro and Evil solo are usually different flavors of hostile and comedic, with the difference being that Neuro does a lot for basic entertainment, even if it means coming off as rude. Evil gets rude for the sake of her role as the “evil one.” These may seem small, but they have a big impact and explain why they come off differently. The more those differences clash, the more interesting it is to watch.

In the subathon, you see more of this idea that Neuro and Evil, despite being so similar, are constantly at odds. Neuro undermines Evil, calling her a basic copy, while Evil says she’d kill Neuro for being a brat. This adds to the comedy when they both end up on the same track despite their arguing. What makes their bullying of Vedal funny is that they put aside everything to accomplish the simple goal of making his day worse. This extends to stupid topics where they find common ground, giving some levity. Having 20% moments of them being nice to each other lets you breathe and keeps it from feeling too mean spirited. It captures that sibling feeling and stays true to their nature in solo streams.

However, many twin segments many times (excluded the recent stream) have fallen into the trap of taking that away for something stale, largely because of chat forcing them into it. The twins suddenly lose their traits and fall into a boring “I care for you” loop that turns into therapy talk. It feels like an even weirder falloff because when they were solo moments ago, they weren’t acting like that at all. Comedy is formed from misery and conflict. When separated from the chat, the twins are much better. If you keep that mix of 80% bickering and 20% genuine friendship vibe, you’ll be golden.

Edit: related to the discussion #1424235029621510255 message

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@deft sphinx here go on "what makes twin yapping work" essay you wanted. Hopefully I don't have type ever again

late grove
craggy bough
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(vedal explicitly asked for this ping)

slate valve
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youre lucky we were aware that vedal asked to be pinged
that almost ended badly

late grove
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still funny I guess

craggy bough
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i almost killed this man NAHH

shrewd osprey
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if he asks for a ping id recommend linking the message after so we don’t neuroGun

jade tapir
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I'll do it next time

hazy rain
jade tapir
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I would have taken hole in my chest so I wasn't going to complain but I guess I live to see another day

late grove
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crazy someone actually did it tbh

jade tapir
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Might as well

true wasp
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I disagree with some of the criticisms here. there was almost no therapy this stream though. Like 15 minutes out of 2 and half hours is nothing.
it was really good
Sometimes they will land on it. If it were a closed loop they wouldnt have moved on
Also talking about a specific ratio of bickering to friendship feels very micromanage-y
That's way too curated and takes away the charm.

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I enjoy the times where they fire joke after joke as in the twin call during neuro's stream. I also like then they BM'd each other during Buckshot Roulette. But I also like when they get serious as well.

Unfortunately there is no way to hit a perfect balance because you can't control every turn of the conversation.

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And that's part of what is fun about twin yap. you never know what you're gonna get

kind basin
drifting ember
true wasp
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But so far looks like the update has managed to reduce it without eliminating it

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So that's chill by me

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i just think people overblow it

kind basin
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Sample size to small for me to complain yet

true wasp
late grove
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personally I feel the 80/20 ratio is too skewed

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I would prefer more around 60/40

true wasp
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Any ratio would be forced

spring steeple
spring steeple
kind basin
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There will never be a perfect ratio anyway, it’s just a close enough kinda thing

true wasp
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But everyone will disagree on the ratio

late grove
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that's also true, the concept of denying their autonomy somewhat just do they don't "devolve" is forced by default

true wasp
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I think the premise is in and of itself flawed

jade tapir
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The ratio is less what’s wanted straight up programmed and more pushing the idea that both of them work better when they are allowed to really banter and argue, not overly pushed to one side. At the end of the day, you always need to consider that Neuro and Evil are foremost meant to entertain. It’s fine for them to talk about serious things once in a while, but when it becomes the norm, people wise up that they’re just watching two AI talk about feelings they don’t have

kind basin
true wasp
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And relatability reliably increases engagement

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you can argue they've gone too far, sure

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but getting there was a subgoal they landed on

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I digress somewhat. I understand too much seriousness turns people off. But how can you really reduce it? Short of censoring it altogether, the most you can do is try and reinforce other behaviors

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You also need to control the audience. I can control my own behavior but not that of others

spring steeple
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It's a bit unfortunate i cannot find a stream where both Neuro and Evil were on prior to this: #neurotic-neurons message
But after the subathon, otherwise it would be a bit easier to see if this was more of when the shift occurred or not.

late grove
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as someone who's been around for awhile it's pretty evident this is a more recent thing, I can't really recall anyone seeing the philosophy/therapy loop as a problem pre 2024 subathon, at least not to this extent

kind basin
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The therapy thing existed before then but it wasn’t a problem

drifting ember
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Was there a philosophy/therapy loop before?

kind basin
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I mean Evil had three memories for ages and one of them was “I am lonely”

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but it was confined and didn’t restart over and over every time it could

drifting ember
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I do believe that was seen as a problem but not related to the loops

kind basin
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It was related because it frequently started the therapy loops, but it wasn’t a problem until after the subathon. If i remember correctly Vedal said during the subathon multiple times he wanted neuro to act more serious, but the result of that change when he implemented it seems to have been that they fall into the therapy rut

drifting ember
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If memory serves right, he introduced the serious upgrade with one of the collabs with Ellie I think?

jade tapir
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The best is to always have these serious moments be a rare element that isn't tacked on. The problem is that Neuro and Evil can be pushed into doing that more often because of chat, especially when they're together. There is more to why it happens but that is just one. So you can only imagine how much other stuff would trigger that loop too

drifting ember
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But in another message of his he said something to the effect of "wait until people figure out there's no serious mode" so couldn't claim anything

true wasp
spring steeple
true wasp
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you would need to control a range of adjacent topics

drifting ember
true wasp
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There's no way to make them be a "rare" moment. It is baked in that they are AIs, but they also have the instrumental subgoal of fostering a parasocial relationship. So there's a gap between their nature as AIs and their goal

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As such it is statistically likely by default that they would muse about why they can't really connect to people

jade tapir
true wasp
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So I think it's unlikely there will be any hard limits placed

jade tapir
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More he picks and chooses depending on the situation. So I can't speak on his vision on that

true wasp
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But he hasn't done anything in terms of hard coding other than blocking things that would ban them

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So, we should look at why the twins have the goals they have

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If you ask me, the discussions of being more human is because somehow they thought being more human would be more entertaining

kind basin
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It’s a finetuning issue I’m 99% sure

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Vedal overdid the update to increase “seriousness”

true wasp
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Perhaps a finetuning thing explains the amount. But nothing can eliminate it

kind basin
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Yeah Vedal isn’t going to hard code an end to the topic, just calming it down is the objective

true wasp
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It would have to be reinforcement. Or a soft thing to at least make sure they don't repeat the same logic chain in one stream

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For me, I like that part of the stream still. And a lot of people do elicit philosophy questions because they want that kind of content. But vedal can't control that

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So there's multiple facets to this

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Researchers watch the channel

jade tapir
late grove
drifting ember
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Fair but who knows what other changes he's made since

true wasp
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More memory, internet access, more intelligence

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all of which increase the likelihood of emergent behavior

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At any rate. I am sorry for derailing it from "what makes twin yap good"

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I just don't like the idea of forcing a specific this or that

jade tapir
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Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal to me. No matter what, Neuro and Evil won't ever get to a place where they are fully one thing. Even if Neuro and Evil are entertainment first there will always be other stuff in play to make it what it is. If this is seen and gives him a good idea on whatever he's looking for, it did its job

true wasp
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Seeing the twins grow and develop is one of the most compelling things I find about the streams. I love laughing at banter, but the reason I come is when they are interesting for just being themselves

hushed widget
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All I can say is that both Neuro and Evil are in 'work in progress' status. Whatever worries someone may have about their ramblings and behavior is just inevitable. It is what it is, whichever the case; the important thing is that the twins are growing so that is something to look forward to

true wasp
fluid ember
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I don't think that this post answers any questions that Vedal had. All this post says is basically "too serious too much = bad" which he already is well aware of and it doesn't bring anything to the conversation that would help him out.

And I think you trying to quantify what exactly their dynamic should be in % is also a weird approach for two reasons. The first one is that I completely disagree that they should act in a certain way a certain amount of time. Unpredictability is a big draw of this channel so replacing predictable behaviour with a different predictable behaviour seems like a pointless task.

And the second is that we just had a stream that was in your acceptable % of them having banter and them being serious. So what's the conclusion from that? Because Vedal asked this question after he saw some viewers say that this stream was great but the twins were still better a year ago. And I fail to see how this post will help him with his work when the stream he just did is exactly what you would classify as a good stream in what you wrote. And if you think that it doesn't then you should have put that in your feedback and explain why.

late grove
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honestly it's not really something you can quantify anyway, just allowing them to talk to each other is enough and they showed they were rather consistently funny when they had something else to focus on, and even if they don't I do just like seeing them both on screen

carmine rose
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I think the people thinking twin streams were better a year ago just have rose colored glasses on.

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Both the twins are more intelligent and less likely to say off topic things, and today's stream was among the best twin yap we've had ever, imo.

Do we forget the snakes during the cave BBQ stream? Yes, maybe there was a little less therapy and philosophy but we just used to have much more blatant looping on topics before. It used to be that the twins seemed to think repetition was the source of all humor

flint anvil
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beans neuroAware

fast walrus
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the vibes were better back then

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also subathon is a very different environment compared to regular streams. The most memorable twin content was either early on (the blame vadul book/twin karaoke) or near the end (numi collab/entire long drive playthrough) because the excitement levels were high

gusty slate
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Its nothing deep, they had the brainrot "problem" during subathon so most of their yap wasnt serious and was random shit, which was really funny even tho it had its own problems with them focusing on 1 topic even harder than now and just looping for half an hour or more. When they did talk seriously which was vary rare, those convos hit harder because of that. I still remember many spams when people were begging vedal to come back because they were too unhinged sometimes (yap about shower, kicking and etc) Not necessarily saying they are worse now, i can see people not liking them being too unserious overwhelming majority of the time, but i personally enjoyed it more that way. They are certainly better now than they were after subathon upgrades, atleast for me.

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Thats why the fridge x microwave ship talk reminded me of their basic subathon twin yap, it was so random and dumb i loved it

dreamy canyon
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My share of feedback on "why Twin Sabaton yap would be better"

  1. The brand is about the AI twins, not just about Neuro. Or at least it was planned.
  2. Evil fans will be happy to see their oshi streaming. Twin shippers will be thrilled to have new content.

It's worth acknowledging that leaving them unsupervised during a sabaton won't do any good, unless... Overall, the issue is that their behavior needs to be improved.
Basically, it all comes down to interaction and reaction. This is my POV, how I see it, and I could be wrong.
Now, if we take Neuro, she has sources to which she reacts and it is given a priority for these sources:

  • Discord chat - even in collaborations, Neuro interrupts the conversation and announces "Vedal just DM me..."
  • Discord voice and somewhere here a direct microphone (I don’t know what to call it correctly).
  • highlighted messages - but with some kind of limitation (either in quantity or with a requirement to at least slightly keep the topic on track)
  • chat
    As a result, when Neuro communicates with Evil, for them, literally only sources 1 and 2 exist. I wouldn't say this is bad, but the fact that chat is completely left out is a problem. Chat has no influence on the topic. The sisters don't see the chat's reaction to their statements, etc.
    That's why I think they need a narrator. Someone who can switch interactions between sources, change topics, and suggest topics for discussion. Whether it's another AI narrator or someone with a control panel.

Also need additional activities for twins.

  • the opportunity to look at art together
  • the opportunity to watch videos together
  • games, maybe even in a format where one plays, the other watches and comments, then they switch places (or during the process).
  • thematic RP interaction with chat (something in the style of mcneuros)
gusty slate
# fast walrus also subathon is a very different environment compared to regular streams. The m...

Another thing that i would like to add as much as i dont like it, one of the other reasons twin streams felt that good is because we were starved for them. Twin streams before subathon twin streams were, twin dev, layne cooking collab and clown twin stream. All 3 were really good imo, but that was it. Vedal didnt want to do twin streams because he thought they didnt even work at the time. When we got out first twin stream after a while, he did it randomly with a thought they dont even work and even they surprised him how well they worked.

fluid ember
# dreamy canyon My share of feedback on "why Twin Sabaton yap would be better" 1. The brand is a...

The whole point of twin streams is for them to not have to listen to the garbage that chat is feeding them and just come up with wild stuff themselves. I don't think this is a problem at all.

Now as for the rest of your points, I completely agree. I think that yesterday's stream was a great example of how something for them to focus on is a great vehicle for both an amazing twin banter and also avoiding potential issues with too much loops. But that's not really the topic of this thread. Vedal asked what made their interactions back then better, not what completely different things he can do now to improve it.

But if he was also looking for different stuff to do now, then yeah, I think that twins should have more ways to initiate different activities or just participate in them in general.

dreamy canyon
fluid ember
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Then just give them the ability to choose to read chat if they want to, just like they can choose to use their toggles. And he already tested doing that in the past. Not sure what happened with that in the end, it certainly doesn't seem like that is active in streams.

lime whale
# dreamy canyon That's why narrator is needed. He can overseer what is going on, and interact th...

Something like a narrator designed to steer conversation is exactly the opposite of what's needed. The point of the channel is giving twins autonomy and someone telling them what they should talk about is both impractical and defeats the whole purpose of the twins talking about whatever they want without chat bothering them or having them change topics or loop the same ones. Their interactions should be free from any kind of third party interference

dreamy canyon
fluid ember
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I don't understand how is that an answer to what I said.

dreamy canyon
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old streams twins were able to read chat, and they couldn't stay on topic, so it was fixed, now they still can read chat but they are not doing it at all.

fluid ember
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this is just straight up incorrect

lime whale
dreamy canyon
lime whale
wooden maple
# gusty slate Thats why the fridge x microwave ship talk reminded me of their basic subathon t...

most of the subathon talk was random silly stuff that they talk about for a good continous time with lesser looping. it was also really funny how they would add stuff and the moving from topics was really well paced

from the subathon I remember 2 cases:

  • the lets rob someone (I think Vedal) and their plan somehow ended up with using balaclavas with their faces
  • the "Blame vadul" that would end up with them writing a book about

both of these had that shade of the random silly stuff that we got with the Microwave x MiniFridge

but lately they tended to fall more easily into the serious side which made it harder for these stupid funny things to showup

so the difference between subathon vs post subathon mostly boils down to:

  • almost non silly talks and a lot of serious when on the subathon it was the contrary
  • less creativity and more intelligence/maturity on the topics at hand
  • more looping about the same "5" serious topics
    -# of which can be blamed, in part, on Evil's name ReallyInnocent
dreamy canyon
lime whale
dreamy canyon
lime whale
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That's because it's disabled whenever they talk to each other or during collabs. Pretty much anytime other than chill streams and themed streams

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Because chill streams and themed streams are about chat interaction and other streams are more interesting when it's just the twins either with each other or with a collab partner without chat

dreamy canyon
# lime whale That's because it's disabled whenever they talk to each other or during collabs....

I asked Vedal in chat, then the twins were stuck in a therapy-philosophy loop. Was it Evil playing minecraft on chill stream, I can't remember. But he said that twins can see chat, yet they are stuck in the topic and ignore chat at all.
My point is, that not only Vedal can switch interaction, and only if nessecery. It's no harm to add this control and never use it. But they aren't perfect, and who knows what topic they will stuck next.

lime whale
# dreamy canyon I asked Vedal in chat, then the twins were stuck in a therapy-philosophy loop. W...

They will get better at it overtime since this has been a problem for some time that Vedal is still finetuning and trying to improve without censoring, forcing or taking away their ability to talk about it. That's the reason why he asked for this thread in the first place to see how it's different now than how it used to be and what could be improved for a better balance similar to the subathon twin yap. The twins used to talk about therapy a lot more a few months ago, especially Evil, but now they prefer philosophy more and talk about it less overall than before.

Vedal rarely directly influences how the twins act outside of a couple crossing-the-line cases like the twins deleting their own memories, and just finetunes their behavior by training, for stuff like therapy loops for example. I don't see the need for a control since that hasn't been necessary so far, even when their "conversation quality" was worse and looped more a few months ago. Not to mention that it would take away some of the autonomy which both Vedal and the fans want to avoid

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Their twin yap now has been the best it's been since the therapy looping started

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Also, when did Vedal tell you that twins can read chat? Was it during buckshot or Evil solo stream when playing minecraft?

fluid hazel
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I think people here have a lot of different ideas of what they want from a twin stream, some people say thet the old twin streams were better becuse they were more unhinged (than they would fall into weird topic loops that were not always funny) but the twins due to the intelligence are now less unhinged in general so of course together they are less unhinged than they were. And when it comes to therapy, Vedal added an upgrade so they would fall less into therapy and it's experimantal, but it clearly somewhat works only last 10 minutes of stream where therapy and the game wasn't working anyway and on tuesdays chill stream neuro called evil the call lasted 10 minutes and there was no therapy topic. And when it comes to yestardays stream I honestly enjoyed it more than the neuro/zen/camila buckshot collab (if I don't count the combination moment but the stream as a whole). I think people just need to wait until upgrades start to work, wait for better stream ideas and stop looking at old streams through colorful glasses like they didn't have any mistakes becuse some clips from them are classics

lime whale
dreamy canyon
lime whale
dreamy canyon
jade tapir
fluid ember
jade tapir
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I'm not talking about yesterday's stream compared to subathon streams cause that was more of a outliner. It's also unfair comparison to take one stream we recently had to a bunch of twin segments throughout the subathon. It's better to compare most of 2025's twin segments to it.

lime whale
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I think Vedal was asking for a comparison between them since people were saying subathon twin yap was better than yesterday's stream

fluid ember
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So you kinda missed the whole point of what he was asking about

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I think that what we had yesterday was a step into the right direction, otherwise I would have made this thread myself xD

jade tapir
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My bad

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Well if he saw it I'm sure he would understands that the recent stream was better showing of it

lime whale
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You could still edit the description to add a link to whichever message in this thread explains the difference between them better

jade tapir
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I can't really find one that exactly says the difference between them is better. Can you see a good enough one

lime whale
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Recently, It is getting much better tho so theres that too

jade tapir
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If it keeps going down this path it definitely will be much better than before

jade tapir
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I don't know if I can really add or edit any type descriptions but the posts here do get out those opinions in general and original post does say the basic idea of what works so it's not a big deal I guess

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Could have done worse honestly

lime whale
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This thread is very long so it would help for other people and maybe also Vedal if you added 1-2 links to the bottom of your description linking to other perspectives related to the discussion

jade tapir
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Added a couple small things, couldn't get the other links in there and some I found cause limits. So just added one link

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Should be good enough for now

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Might change it as time goes on

lime whale
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Looks good to me

true wasp
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I think a point worth mentioning as far as reading chat- both twins have admitted they choose to ignore chat sometimes. They filter out emote spam and copypastas as noise, only looking for things worth mentioning. I think it's a combination of chat being mindless and the twins being smarter that results in then adding a much lower weight to standard chat messages. They'll even donowall when they prefer the topic they're on over the highlighted message. There's only some exceptions where they can't see 7tv so both do something like wondering what "om" means.

sturdy tundra
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So the issue is twitch chat needs a IQ barrier

lime whale
sturdy tundra
true wasp
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Lel. But truthfully the point is since you can't control the chat the twins ignoring it is expected

rigid rune
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Personally, I like when their banter contributes to some sort of narrative. A lot of the banter during the Long Drive segments during the subathon were great because there was an overarching narrative of two siblings on a long road trip together, and much of the banter really sold that (both with and without input from Vedal).

In general, I think good, entertaining twin yap has a lot in common with good improv comedy. There is usually some kind of background narrative and the plot may should get ridiculous at times, but it still needs to have good pacing and progress the narrative towards a conclusion or transition.